Frustrated players admit: “It's not good enough”

If only your manager could work up enough courage to spit out that kind of sentence at the moment, heÂ’d go a long way to winning back at least some respect.

Roberto has to use Thursday to put Joel back in. We have become so used to Howard staying rooted to his line that Joel was a breath of fresh air once he had a run in the team, even though this commanding the area in such a way should be a given for a keeper.

It's been obvious since the home draw with Swansea, that the supposed lesser teams have set out to frustrate us this season... and it's worked. This was the game when Martinez blamed Swansea for not wanting to play football, and it illustrated to me how we have been found out. Isn't it up to us to work out how to beat teams that sit back so we end up playing tika taka in our own half, instead of blaming them for not wanting to play to our managers strengths.

I have no doubts that we can match some of Europe's best when they play to beat us. We can then play the expansive fluid football that had us all dreaming of the Champions league last season. But unless we look at formations and start playing the likes of Oviedo in the same team as Baines, or Kone alongside Rom, or have two proper wingers on the field at the same time instead of playing Nairsmith out wide we will be in a dog fight until the end of the season.

I actually thought Roberto did a good job of changing tactics on Sunday by bringing Gibbo into the game with his long passes and sliding Naismith inside and to the left of Rom. It produced six clear chances in 30 minutes.

But I'm with Gavin on one point... I'd love to see Kone and Rom together up top Whatever the rest of the alignment, we need to start striking fear into opposing backlines instead of boredom.

They did not, could not, would not, or dare not offer an idea on how to improve the team's performance.

The only conclusion we can draw from that load of codswallop is they are scared to voice the truth or they would not recognize the truth if it smacked them in the gob. Then again perhaps it is the fans that are ignorant.

The reasons for our less than spectacular season have been discussed at length. Everybody knows what the problems are. The fans know. The players know. A lot of the mess we're in can traced directly to the manager, but not all.

Knowing the problem is easy, fixing the problem, not so much.

Seriously though, I see this as the players trying to get a message to the fans that they are aware of the bullshit the manager spouts in the press, and that despite his shite, they know it isn't good enough, they just have the nuts to say what Martinez won't.

Last year was different in that we were always confident of coming back after conceding first.

The players are unhappy, not many like the boss, and don't trust him. ( I know this for a fact) Martinez is a liar, and wont be honest with the players or the fans.
He hasn't come out and apologised and accepted liability for any of the blunders that he is responsible for.
We will only get the full picture when his tenure is over. I feel that he won't be thought of as such a nice guy when it all comes out.

Meanwhile in cloud cuckoo land, Roberto still maintains that we've played well for the majority of the season.

Players fed up with the manager? Sounds like it doesn't it?

Yes, it's a bit broad brush and there is nothing concrete in their comments, but it's a start. As others have noted, I think Martinez would do himself an enormous favour by abandoning his mindless, all-purpose optimism and telling the truth. That is the way properly to respect his players and the fans - it doesn't have to be panicky or inappropriately critical but it should be honest.

Our stupidly slow build up play allowed them to get everyone back behind the ball when they lost possession. Had nothing to do with them parking any buses. If we pass the ball faster we wouldn't have this issue....

Either Martinez is so desperate to protect the club and the players from criticism or he is so inept and clueless that he can't see that his repetitive tactics have been long exposed.

Players are to blame. Lukaku had 5 clear chances on Sunday, he should bury at least 2 of them. Why shouldn't you expect one of the best goalkeepers in the league to catch a cross? Players all need to try and grow a pair, stop panicking and see out a match.

Thursdays team: Howard, Coleman, Alcaraz, Jagielka, Baines, Gibson, Besic, Naismith, Atsu, Kone, Mirallas

Just saw the post-match interview with Atsu. He really is a dignified, well-spoken young man in the Everton traditions. I think his performances at AfCon were an embarrassment to RM. If Atsu had been given a chance to play and gain match practice instead of the extremely sub-standard McGeady, I wonder how many more points we would have now.

I really can't get away from the fact that Martinez makes one tactical and man-management error after another. He's a very flat-footed manager. He seems a decent enough man, but I fear he isn't the right man to take us forward. He is outwitted by almost all PL managers he comes up against, many of whom are not the sharpest tools in the box themselves (Hughes, Bruce, Allardyce et al).

I think you also hit upon why we have performed so well in the EL this year but not in the PL. I was hugely encouraged after last Thursday and thought (as I did after the WHU cup games and after Man City) that the players had regained respect for Martinez and the desire to keep winning. Not so, I fear.

I do think Baines and Naismith are genuine enough characters (unlike other poseurs we have) but you are right that no team does well with a posturing manager.

Problem is he also put Howard back in goal who was at fault for both goals in my opinion.

Lukaku could have had another hatrick if he wanted but spurned most of his chances.

Macca. I believe we're the worst in the league at standing off and letting people cross or shoot. Have a word with the fullbacks and fellow midfielders please. It's terrible to watch.

Mr Martinez. A major reason why the mob next door are doing well is the fact that Brenda has no favourites. If a player can't do the job he doesn't play. You ought to try it sometime. He also altered his whole system when it was obviously not working.

I welcome this change. No point kidding ourselves - if we play like that for the rest of the season then the top half is out of our reach... Which is ridiculous.

Bring on Arsenal.

IMHO, the malaise was from the off with poor pre-season, fitness levels and schoolboy howlers, the chief culprit being the bearded one. All of the factors have sapped the confidence out of the team.

Martinez (and us) was let down by two players on Sunday. His keeper and his striker.

Had both done their jobs properly we would have won comfortably.

He made the change early and we scored, unfortunately the dope in goal decided to screw it all up.....by being a dope.

The dope up front left his European boots in the changies and looked like a £2.80 striker instead of a £28m one.

the oppositions most dangerous player is our keeper and our main striker could hit his own arse with a banjo

I thought McCarthy looked a bit despondent in the second half and let his head go down

I agree no-one takes him seriously in interviews. He would get more respect if he said it like it was. Eddie (20), how do you know for a fact he is losing the dressing room?

The Chelsea goal was a deflection and the Young Boys one was a great shot from a striker who had loads of time to pick a spot and he was wrong footed.

He played well in the two games albeit conceding in both.

This is pretty novel to me because we had two dour Scotsman for the best part of 15 years previously. While I'm not saying Martinez is worse than the other two (I still remember his achievements from last season) Moysie and Smith always convinced me that they shouldered the blame in post match interviews, when we had been on the receiving end of a good hiding... I'm not sure Martinez does though.

"I agree Brian 14. We lost momentum on that night, and Robles took a step backwards too."

Can you explain why you think Robles took a step back after this game. I know he had made a howler in this game, but that was before he came in as an injury replacement and acquitted his elf very well, with several clean sheets.

Ok there was a lot of players between him and the ball, but the man is six foot Bleedin four and is a part time cage fighter. So anyone standing there should've been on the ground counting stars. I've seen all the great gks do it. Sadly Howard is one of them

Basically you know your goalkeeper needs changing when you can call a goal on a direct free kick before the player has even taken it because his positioning is wrong. Even just myself before Suarez's in the derby, Gerrard's in the derby and Wolfsburg's free kick this season I said 'if this gets over the wall its in'. It shouldn't be that way. Free kicks should be absolute belters right in the postage stamp, not any old bent shot that happens to make it over the wall.

I suspect they see him as a soft touch, craving their adoration. He's going the wrong way about it as they will test him to the limit !

Unfortunately though the Howard problem might not go away so easy seeing soft bollocks decided to give him a 3 year extension so it’s going to cost us to get rid. I think I’ll blow a gasket if he’s in the team on Thursday!

Now if that isn't a cryptic message to fans to say RM hasn't a clue how we get passed a packed defence and hasn't come up with a system to break it down all season. Yes the players quoted are also saying that collectively performances haven't been good enough, but I think the more important message is the lack of ideas from the manager. Now yes even under OFM players came out at times and said the performance wasnt good enough but I cant remember anyone questioning the managers tactics as Baines comments do.

Is there something we could learn there perhaps,maybe, possibly ?

Sunday was just another example of how far our standards have dropped.

And may I correct an earlier poster the problems have been just as evident away from home in the league.

The only thing I want Martinez to come out in public and say is that he has just resigned.

At this stage there is no recovery under this manager.

The players and the fans have had enough of this total ineptitude and bullshit and no examination of which player made a mistake and the supporters contribution to the situation will wash.

"Phenominal Bobby" needs to go away and reassess his football philosophy because there isn't one club he has managed that hasn't done better under other managers.

I like your point about the keepers, but a smaller goalie with a big spring can make the difference.
Shay Given is also 6ft 1 or 2, although he did look smaller on tv!
It is interesting watching the women's football that so many goals are scored from long range in the top corners. The goals are just too big for the slightly shorter ladies. ( I think that is is daft to have men's goals for them)

Naismith, who isn't tall, wins countless headers all over the park, whilst Lukaku often fails to get off the ground.

James, the other thing about a lot of those free kicks was the poorly set walls. Little guys(like Pienaar) on the ends (and moving to boot!)
I often despair at Howard setting his wall- but I do recall 3 or 4 years ago, him flying through the air to tip a free kick over in several games.
Perhaps he has lost his "spring"?

If you mean what you say, do summat about it then!

Btw great analysis of Howard, I think he lacks the concentration needed to be a great goalie.

Btw great analysis of Howard, I think he lacks the concentration needed to be a great goalie.

The biggest disappointment to me by far this season is not Martinez, Lukaku, Barry or the team or tactics. It is Ross Barkley. Martinez is partly to blame with heaping pressure on him and playing him out of position.

However, Ross must shoulder most of the blame. He does fuck all puts in no effort and just wanders through games. It’s not even that he doesn’t tackle but he doesn’t move or track back at all.

He’s being a complete lazy bastard and I would accept that ( begrudgingly) if he was putting in world class performances every week going forward but I haven’t seen him have one good game this season. Unless he has something going on in his personal life that we don’t know about then there is no excuse.

For someone of his talent, stature and ability it’s an absolute disgrace to the shirt. I don’t boo my own players but I couldn’t wait to see the back of him on Sunday. He needs to be dropped and given an almighty kick up the arse.

If the Europa dream doesn't happen, it's fair to say that Roberto will be gone at the end of the season. There's plenty of managers that would love the job. Slaven Bilic could be one. I did wonder if the "Everton are big enough to win the league" quote the other week was Bilic putting himself in the frame if Martinez does get the elbow in the summer.

Just cant take the man seriously anymore

Ross has shown to me that he is a very good player. However unless RM has said do fuck all (which McGeady alluded to one time) I just don’t understand why this season he doesn’t even try

The whole team are responsible along with the manager for results on the field..
As for all Barkley hype, I just can not see what others seem to see!

Do you adapt a system to the players you have or do require the players to play to the system you believe in?

It depends I suppose on whether you're a pragmatist or a romantic.

A pragmatic manager adapts his system to the players he has. What you don't do is continue to flog to death a system that clearly isn't working for the team.

And when you're really up against it - as we are- you abandon the system and do whatever is necessary to get 3 points. I know from comments you've made here that you probably agree with me.

He's also spent a few months injured, then mostly played out wide. People need to give him a break and give him proper support. The same for Lukaku. I'm just watching the far more experienced Bony unable to kick a fucking football, so perhaps we need to get of Lukaku's back until he regains his confidence. Even after having a shite season he should be on for 20 goals so thats not too bad.

Quite frankly between Howard Jagielka and Distin they have between them been largely responsible for our awful form. Their individual mistakes have been responsible for setting the shitty tone for many of our performances.

The writing was on the wall against Leicester when Howard sliced the ball into touch then had a bit of a laugh about it. If thats how you go about your job it's no wonder you continually fuck up.

Martinez has also made quite a few errors of judgement, including in the summer transfer window and decisions such as the one to reinstate Howard, or persisting in playing players out of position even when he had options.

I think most of us agree that Robles is the keeper in form who deserves to be in the side, but equally virtually everyone was calling Martinez an idiot for signing him in the first place. We are all geniuses in hindsight.

Martinez - last season he looked v good to me - clearly inexperienced so made plenty of mistakes but class.

Hodgson - personally I think he is an awful manager but has credentials in Media cos he worked as national manager for Switzerland and managed inter and is a clever man. Shit manager in my opinion.

Peter, I'm blaming Roy. Ever since he screamed at Ross, during his England cameo, for losing the ball the lad hasn't been the same.

But can you explain why he doesn’t try anymore - surely that’s not down to confidence / lack of form but desire and commitment? Whilst manager can be partially blamed surely the main responsibility rests with Ross for these lack of attributes.

His attitude absolutely stinks at present and I don’t know what’s wrong with him and enough’s enough

Sorry, we all want him to be good, but he isn't delivering, he doesn't look like he's going to deliver. We've all seen plenty of players down the years who have all the ability in the world, but aren't able to put it together consistently. I hope I'm proved wrong, but Barkley is the latest of a long line.

Barkley is like most young English players. Plenty of ability, lack of mental resilience. Maybe that's what's 'going on',

Paul Hewitt is correct, Barkley will be a great player for some team, but I have my doubts it'll be Everton, unless we can find a manager that can use his undoubted ability in the best way. He didn't look too shabby last season, did he?

Martinez looked good last season, but it hasn't stopped him getting stick this season. Maybe they both have talent and just can't apply it consistently?

True Rom. should have had a goal against the Foxes but Everton cannot play the passing game quickly enough even against Leicester who are bottom. With Lennon and Coleman they have to play on the break and make it count but they didnÂ’t against Leicester and against many other teams this season.

ItÂ’s time to start Atsu who seems to be ready to impress along with one or two others. If RM doesnÂ’t show some guts then itÂ’s going to be more of the same until May.

Too many shrewd and objective commentators were praising him last season for it to have been hype. Besides, we could all see his abilities couldn't we? This season he is a shell of himself.

Two games in a week too much? Try doing a 40-hour-a-week shift on a building site for a salary less than one week's wage of a footballer.

If players cannot play 2 games a week for 180 minutes, that's 3 hours of a normal day's job, then change your profession.

One thing I will guarantee: he will play Howard on Thursday, there's no way he will risk giving Robles a game; if he does and Robles plays well, how can he justify bringing Tim back for the Arsenal game?

All English, all talented. not identical.

Ross Barkley was born a Blue.
He's already achieved 100% more than everyone on TW stacked together.

If Ross turns out to be a Blue Matt le Tiss, then I'll be delighted with that.
I'll always pray for more, but very happily accept that.

Frankly, a lot of people on TW really do need to take a bloody reality pill. If achieving success was a simple as desiring success then anyone with "EA Sports FIFA" would be the worlds best player/manager. Except that even in the plastic/electronic/virtual world as brilliant/perfect as you may be, the possibilty will always exist that someone/other exists or is developing who is better.

In the meantime, encourage the lad.
Go on, I dare you.

Cos I frequently wonder how well so many of us would fare in "EA Sports Fan" version ?
Hmm ?
Take a bloody look in the mirror.

We don't need a mirror to hold a view and mine is that too many excuses are being made for this lad.

Send Ross to Brian (129) for a few weeks on the building site to man up. Ross will come good once he becomes a man!

IÂ’m not sure he will become world class, but if he does, I hope itÂ’s with Everton.

I think Ross has been instructed not to tackle and save his energy for when he has the ball. Too many people want their cake and eat it, Naismith gets applaud for his work rate and slagged for his lack of technical ability.

My biggest question is how many of you think That Lakaku has improved any part of his game this season.

Get the simple things right, loosen up and build from there. We should all be praying he comes through this because I think that Barkley does indeed have the potential to be one of the great players for us and England - though I entirely agree Martinez should never have said so.

Diamonds need a bit of care and attention at times and can sometimes lose their sparkle, but will always have that quality.

remember that.

I'd be more interested if Lukaku and Mirallas said it to the Belgian media.

Everyone MUST get behind the team at Goodison.

I have a season ticket, I have done for 20 years. I now live in London, so I do a 5 hour round trip every time I come back for a game. With the season ticket, travel, away tickets and travel, and the odd European trip, I'll spend about £3-4k watching Everton this year. If I see a player fail to control a 5 yard pass, or a keeper allow a striker to powderpuff the ball past them at their near post, I reserve the right to have a bit of a grumble.

I don't boo, I don't scream abuse, but it's very hard for my negative energy not to transmit on to the pitch because absolutely everyhing I see is negative.

Tony, I think 99% of Everton fans would be overjoyed if Barkley turned out like Le Tissier. The problem we have is that he swans around like Le Tissier now, but he doesn't score 15 goals a season or score regular breathtaking goals like Le Tissier did. If you're not going to tackle or attempt to win headers, you need to score and assist a lot. He doesn't. The fans aren't being harsh on Ross, he's produced less magic this season than Bilyaletdinov used to and he used to get dogs abuse. The fact is, if you don't produce the goods, the fans will not sit quietly and sing you lullabies until you feel better, they'll give you a bit of stick. If he can't handle it, he'll fade away to obscurity.

It also means that Martinez has been playing a man who isn't match fit for the last three games,enough is more than enough for me now.

Talented, brilliant, skilled or not, he is in danger of becoming a Tom Cleverley figure. And that would be a sin.

The question though is why he has developed it and how, if at all, it can be cured. I don't accept that he is a prima donna or just lazy.

People who make the effort to get to the match and pay for their seat are also correct to say they have the right to yell and scream abuse at whoever they like for whatever reason.

My issue is that as an Evertonian, I want the best for my club and I don't see that a toxic atmosphere contributes to us getting results and playing good football, even though it obviously makes some people feel better at the time to make their feelings known.

I think if we want the players to produce we need to get behind them. Getting on their backs only serves to give confidence to the opposition and drain it from our lads. Football is all about confidence and it's clear we are playing without any.

No way will Martinez risk that, then dropping Robles for the Arsenal game.

So I was totally unaware that he planned to play Howard in goal tomorrow, and, as result, I am lost for words. After Leicester, no one in their right mind, would put him between the sticks. But then,we do have RM as our manager.

On the Ross Barkley front, I am very worried. Do we do enough to keep an eye on our younger players? A lack of concentration, and a slap dash approach to helping out team mates may indicate problems off the field, which are weighing heavily on him.

I do not claim that my supposition is true. But this season,Ross is like a new signing, but not in a good way.

It is a terrible tragedy because he is such a good player, but lack of man management is obviously contributing to his dramatic decline.

He doesn't pick himself I know but he has to give his all every game he plays.There's no excuse for hiding in games when you have all that talent. If he gets grief off the crowd, he deserves it.

Maybe it's just me but I like players like Naismith and maybe Besic because they may not be the best footballers but you won't see them going missing in games whether it's going well or they're having a stinker.

I'm like you though. I hope he finds his mojo again. It's a shame seeing him like this.

As for Ross, it certainly didn’t help with softshite publically announcing that he was going to be the best player ever to wear an England shirt, surely it would have been better just to say Ross needs to keep working hard and he will have a successful career, but what do I know.

We can't expect a still raw kid to turn us around. The player we have missed who made us tick for a good few years is Peanuts. He gave us creativity and made Baines a far better player than he is on his own. The left flank was so dangerous that it created space on the right for Coleman to exploit. We have no one to come anywhere near Peanuts ability though why we haven't tried two from Baines Oviedo and Garbutt puzzles me.

As for GK I can recall the home loss to Chelsea a few years ago when Ballack, Lampard and Drogba all scored from distance and Tim seemed to lose the flight of the ball each time which he has done frequently with long shots over the years. Someone posted above that he has lost his spring and I agree. This happened to Shilton, it happened to Big Nev and is a result of getting old. Tim has had his time and to drop Robles when he was visibly gaining confidence and authority in his area is strange to say the least as is the persistence with Baines over Garbutt and refusal to give Kone a chance.

I could go on for ages but will stop at that. Team selection tomorrow will be fascinating - if we concede early we could have problems and heaven help RM if Tim spills another one.

I would say though that our home crowd has not been helpful. Noone will respond positively to abuse and derision from the crowd. Yes you pay your money but have some sense and button it - try encouragement and see if they get better and much as it pains me to say it that shower from across the park were calling for Brendas head earlier in the season and he turned it around. Maybe Roberto will too?

At home with a back seven shows complete lack of attacking mentality.Teams that have played us at home play with freedom to attack. The fans start getting bored and pissed off with the lack of creativity. Three wins at home in the league all season shows this and what of the future?

The manager appears to be unwilling to change. Therefore it time to go in the summer. The chairman must see its not working and if we don't go down this season it may be next. Once the players stop believing in your philosophy then there is only one outcome. The fans can see it and that season ticket renewal form will only be used for lack of toilet roll.

Under Moyes I never experienced the atmosphere we have now. Its bad for everyone and cannot continue into next season. I believe with heart that we will stay up based on poor teams below us. In the summer we need a manager with a big character to tell the players straight, I would go and get big sam from westham in the summer.

As people have argued earlier Ross isn't that young and if he was truly mentally and physically equipped to be a great player it would be pretty obvious by now. Maybe the manager has messed with his head who knows.