Bernard insists players are behind Silva

Okay, Bernard – Who are the dumb-as-fuck players???

I still believe that both are capable of much better and hope we will see that realized at Everton sooner rather than later.

Unlike Koeman who was by all accounts on the golf course most days by 4 I get the impression that Silva does work extremely hard, however the issue at the moment seems to me to be one of player confidence, or lack of it. There's a nervousness and fragility in the play with individual mistakes simple passes being misplaced. Hard work alone cannot fix that.

The players are clearly very very slow learners I assume then, if they are constantly being told to do things yet set foot on the pitch looking like they have just landed from another galaxy.

He reminds me of Arteta, initially he had no clue on how to handle the physical aspects of the Premier League, constantly fouling after being dispossessed through frustration mostly. But it clocked and he learned to protect the ball, a clocked up foul after foul.

Bernard just needs to work that part out and I think we have a player.

I've decided to post this rather than the regular moan about players trotting out shite like above.

I like this player. Although he has much to improve but I will only believe this guff when I see us win in Cardiff next week, and then give the Reds a run for their money in the derby.

From what I remember Arteta, took to the league like a duck to water when on loan in the second half of the 2004-05 season, dictating the play so much that we didn't even remotely miss the departed Thomas Gravesen.

Arteta had no such problems with the pace or physicality of things as he'd played in the Scottish league for Rangers (back when that was still a pretty competitive league).

Bernard has proven to be technically pretty sound but at the age of 27 it concerns me he won't get much better now. He looks okay until he reaches the penalty box then his head falls off.

I like him but he's needs to start adding more end product to his game and some goals if we are ever going to see a truly valuable player here.

Does anyone really know why Silva was so in demand With Everton at all? Why the Board gave him the job is beyond me, cause he has not shown anything while at Everton, that's for sure.

This season, and the last five seasons makes me sleep bad at night, and it makes my days look grey and dark. Also, my hair has gone and my beard is going grey. I wonder why..

I agree with you that he needs more end product. Though so do most of attacking players.

He's done okay for a foreign player in a new league and notably makes twice as many tackles as Lookman or Walcott per match.

Call me a cynic but I think the media department is doing their best to stop the knives sharpening. Either that, or they all genuinely like him, which I can't tell if they do or they don't.

Whos next? Gylfi/Theo to say "Marco Silva will help me rediscover my form"?

NI'm not having that "attention to detail" set-peice quote either.

I watched Chelsea vs Man Utd last night, and what struck me was the extreme level of physicality and power play. The massive motivation to battle for possession and the physical presence to back it up. It was relentless.

We can't match that at the moment at all.

I was watching their wide man Marcus Rashford and comparing him to the likes of Bernard. Rashford's performance was scintillating. Power, aggression, closing down at lightning pace, breaking out at screaming pace. All this and still providing a great assist.

What I'm saying is it is okay having the technically gifted players, but the reality is that you have to battle like hell with the required players to allow the likes of Bernard to flourish.

As far as those live-or-die battling attributes are concerned, we are lacking. Bottom half status.... Most teams probably look forward to playing us these days.

I think confidence plays such a massive part in any professional sport, before the derby we were a side playing with confidence and looking like we could beat any side. I said after the game, I was concerned about the impact that mistake would have on this team.

Yes, I am sure many will come on and say players should be able to put that defeat behind them but I have seen one game change a season for a club. You just have to look at Man Utd under Mourhino – he fell out with a different player every week and confidence hit an all-time low. Solksjaer comes in puts confidence into everybody and now they look a completely different team.

Seems by and large the players like Silva which wasn't the case under Koeman, so let's hope Silva and the players can turn things around. I am sure he and Brands realize that their failure to buy a striker when they came is having a big impact. Even if we sell more than we buy in the summer, a top striker would make a big difference to this team.

Silva, given time, will get it right. Judge him when he has his own squad to work with not on the unbalanced squad he had put on him.

Bernard has really done nothing since he came and like quite a few others is just picking up a paycheck when not earning it.

Silva, like Sarri at Chelsea, is treading water.

In my opinion, Silva has morphed into a Bobby Martinez mindset stuck in the glare of the headlights with the I don't know what to do expression all over his face.

Both Ronald Koeman and Sam Allardyce learned the hard way about being in charge at EFC. Don't come here thinking the ambition is lacking in the fans and survival will satisfy the Evertonians. Everton supporters want passion and progress – not the treading water mantra David Moyes instilled into the clubs DNA.

For me Marco Silva lacks passion and emotion which doesn't endear him to the fans. Love him or hate him, Klopp connects with the Kopites and they feed off each other's energy. The job here is way too big a puzzle for Marco Silva to figure out. Marco looks lost so do his players and it can't be allowed to fester much longer.

I would sooner give the hapless David Unsworth another crack at the job until the end of the season rather than suffer more of Silva's dire brand of losing football.

We have very few fighters and grafters in our squad and without these type of players will continue to struggle to get a grip on the game. As Tony says, we are a soft touch and it will be difficult for Brands and hopefully Silva to turn it round.

The problem is, John, that coaches rarely have the luxury of putting their own squad together. Perhaps if a coach stays in the job for four or five years, the players could end up his signings but most of the time managers have to work with what is already available.

Management and coaching is a mixture of improving what you have and adding what you need. Silva is failing to get the best out of a reasonable squad.

Off on a tangent, back in the '80s, players trained then went home, now they fuck off on a plane all over the place. They must spend half their lives flying around.

Clubs should put a stop to it, they're employed here, are paid enormous wages, yet treat it like an inconvenience and can't wait to disappear and squeal like a pig to some foreign hack.

"Who are the thick as fuck players?"

All of them, mate.

You look at clubs near the top and they all have fit athletic strong players that can last a full 90 minutes, the pressing and harrying is incessant and the ball is moved quickly and incisively.

Look at our players that simply take too many touches, move the ball too slowly sand aimlessly and simply just hook the call on into space.

When do we see any Everton player beat an opposing player?

Do any of our forwards pick the ball up go past a defender and shoot?

Why don't our defenders work hard enough at defending?

I've seen the tenacity at how Wolves have defended recently an it's a “thou shall not pass” mentality.

Everything we do seems slow, half-baked and frankly just half-hearted.

He inherited an unbalanced squad, by and large he and Brands are addressing the imbalance. Their signings have improved the squad.

Leaving the squad to one side for a minute and concentrating on the starting eleven. I reckon we need a right back, right-sided winger /midfield, a centre half to play with Zouma (I would prioritise his singing and make him captain), a box-to-box powerful midfield player, and a centre-forward.

Jury is out on Mina.

That's half a team to get us anywhere near top six. Another two transfer windows... then I will judge it.

I can't think of a single player you could say he has improved. In fact, I can name quite a few who have gone backwards.

The narrative is very predictable and we are currently just in a slow death. Owner comes out to back manager, check. Players blather on about being as one, check. What comes next? 2 more defeats and he is gone.

I don't fucking think so mate. That is without a doubt the most stupid thing I've heard anyone from our club say in a long time! Either he doesn't mention them, or nobody listens.

Is it the Everton First team you are watching? I cannot think of one player who has improved under this management and coaching team.

I cannot recall (apart from the Burnley fluke) one game all season where the team has put 90 minutes of quality football together without the inevitable mistakes that have cost us dearly - that extends from goalkeeper to forward line.

Some players looks shadows of what they were with us previously or other clubs for which they have played – many look disinterested, unfit and lethargic even when the chips are down – those aspects surely are the managers to sort out even if their ability is lacking. I really want to see positives here but there ware very few without being delusional about our whole set up.

This Club was supposed to be on the cusp of a renaissance but it has gone backwards at an alarming rate this season. I don't doubt the issues of inherited legacies but many of the factors appear directly linked to the current regime.

Like someone said above, certain players have got worse under his tutelage, there is little evidence of any improvement anywhere on the field, if anyone sees otherwise I must have gone to the toilet and missed that bit.

I know it's not ideal to get rid of another Manager, after all the turmoil of the past, but surely we cannot carry on with this load of rubbish, week-in & week-out?

If you are the manager and you choose man-to-man marking at set pieces then consider how you do it. We have Cardiff next. You know what our team is likely to be, have a look at their last side. Now mark them up against each other, any way you like.

If you actually do this, let us know the matchups and describe how you think they'll go. After Keane and Zouma, who's next to pick up their big men, because they have a few.

Zonal marking issues mask a real problem that our side is too small, too weak, and that even with man-to-man, we'd still get murdered in the air as a result.

Then what about Emery at Arsenal. Emery's Arsenal look identical to Wenger's side. There seems to be no difference at all there. All the same issues. Yet Emery is another great coach.

It takes a long time to fix these things, you don't improve a player in a couple of games, you improve him over a couple of years. A great coach doesn't whisper a few magic words and suddenly a player is transformed. We are talking elite professionals, nearly all the players are internationals. They are at the very top of the game. So, it's not easy to improve them, there's little room for improvement for many of them. It's about small details and constant and consistent efforts on the training ground over a very prolonged period of time.

As I keep saying, if Silva is a crap coach, find the evidence. All the evidence is out there, player after player, from his old clubs, with nothing to gain from saying so, yet all say, great coach, superb with the small details, improved my game. Player after player. Not one says the opposite. Not even Troy Deeney, who Silva dropped out of the side and marginalised. He still had good things to say about him.

Silva is a coach, not a magician.

In 40 years of watching and playing football, I have never seen the opposition so often, in the 6-yard box with the ball at their feet and all our defenders on the edge of the 6-yard box, on their heels, with their gobs open in dismay — bang, goal!

It's half the Everton first team I'm watching.

The other half are not good enough moving forward. And not one of them who are not good enough were or are Silva or Brands players.

Little Bernie will find his feet next season and we will have a cracker on our hands. He has already had Rudiger falling over this season pretending to be poleaxed by a player half his size. Despite the fact that Bernie would have needed a step ladder to headbutt him, that didn't deter Rudiger.

To my thinking, that showed he was worried about his pace and skill. He'll get used to the frantic pace soon enough.

Maybe we don't need a great coach.

Maybe we need an old fashioned motivator, a Kendall with a good coach in Harvey. A Clough with a good coach in Peter Taylor.

Whatever Silva is doing, it is not getting through to the players. Whatever he is saying, they are not listening. We are not only talking about the players Silva inherited, even his own guys are struggling. Regardless of his inherited players or his own, we are not carrying out the absolute basics and minimums required and expected.

All the players seemed to love Martinez but that was because they hardly trained and they had loads of time off. Maybe all Silva's past players loved him because they had nothing to worry about apart from picking up their inflated salaries – who knows.

The only thing we can say is that his "attention to detail" didn't do any of his past teams much good in the end.

Maybe these foreign coaches are the latest fad and the 'in thing' but maybe, like all fads, they will disappear sooner rather than later.

It sounds like he's trying to explain to the players how the ball moves through space and time (and up and down the pitch on a Saturday) with Einstein's theory of relativity.

For some strange reason they don't seem to be grasping it.

When it came to defending set-pieces or crosses, I'd stick a plaque in the dressing room in big writing saying:

“Attack the fuckin ball with some bollocks and bravery.”

If you are more hungry and eager to beat the opponent to the ball, then that's what should win over.

End of.

I've posted this before but we play like strangers because we are; Gana is our longest serving player, next comes Davies and Kenny, all the rest came last season or this one.

Therefore, IMHO, we should stick with Silva, and try to get the nucleus of a settled squad; otherwise we start all over again.

But back to Bernard; to quote our American cousins: Walk it like you talk it.

It's not a fad at all. With every passing year, the game gets more and more complicated. Analysts can do more and more, there's more and more computer programs, you have the likes of Nagelsmann with massive TVs at the side of the training pitch so he can halt training and demonstrate where the players are going wrong.

Sorry John, football has moved on. We need a great coach, if Silva is not the man, then we have to find someone else. The days of Harry Redknapp are over.

As for Silva's attention to detail doing any of his teams no good, then what about Estoril and their successive record breaking seasons? What about the Cup win for Sporting? What about the European Record breaking League win for Olympiacos. You think he did crap at Hull, yet the Hull fans thought he did great. The club begged him to stay. Watford fans are very bitter and twisted over him leaving, why if he was shite?

The squad is huge and Silva was allowed the luxury of bringing in SIX players of his own choosing.

It is pointless comparing us to the top 6 because, under Silva, we can't even compete with the rest.

We are currently in freefall with only Huddersfield having worse form. This is a carbon copy of Silva's previous experience with two Premier League clubs one of whom is currently above us despite having a middle of the road coach and with us having taken their best player.

If that doesn't tell you all you need to know about Silva I don't know what does. Blind faith is telling us he will come good but where is the foundation for that???

Hahaha, with players like these, who needs enemies.

It wasn't because "he was shite" — it was because he was a shit.

I was taught in school and Sunday league to get goal side of an opponent about your own size, be shoulder to shoulder and use your strength to disrupt him while doing what you've advised:

"Attack the fuckin ball with some bollocks and bravery."

Well said, Jim; it's a pity Silva is not reading this thread.

A good coach is not a good coach, if he is not a good communicator. If a coach has to explain something 5 or 6 times, there is something wrong with the message. Most of the professional players left school at 15 and football is all they know. If the message is over-complicated, the message will not be understood. The messenger needs to understand his audience's intelligence and capabilities.

Anthony #41, laughing at your zonal marking comment. Exactly as I would describe the 2nd phase of a set-piece, our players rooted to the spot along the 6-yard line, mouths open. Maybe the zonal marking message was too complicated for our darlings. They got the bit about lining up and marking their zone, but then the message got complicated and everything went fuzzy.

When the 2nd phase kicks in, are we allowed to leave our zone and mark a man and anticipate danger? Jags has been a big miss for us this year for his defensive organisation, always had a nose for trouble, getting back to get a block or clearance, rather than ball-watching.

Laughing also at Bernard's comment about Silva providing the details of set-pieces, maybe, just maybe, too many details to process. These comments on the weeks off which cause so much anguish are often just answers to journalist's questions:

Do you think Marco Silva is a good coach?
Would you like to play for PSG?
Would you like to play in the Champions League?
Are you enjoying your football under Sam?
Are you working hard on set pieces?

All predictable answers.

So, if Silva can get the players up for this game, if he can put a dent in their title ambitions, this is the one game he can pull a rabbit out of the hat, give us something back.

May only be 3 points, but to us Evertonians, it will be a lot more than 3 points.

So Silva, this is your big chance: go out there, get a result, and wipe the smug arrogant smile off Klippity and his supporters, not forgetting Carragher and Thompson.

Win that and I will echo Bernard's comments.

I think half the time players are over coached, they end up with too much theory and not enough action.

There's no substitute for class and ability that the very best players have, they can change a game at any time with some individual skill. Unfortunately our squad in the main lacks that little extra bit of class that can turn games.

We can sack managers till the cows come home but, unless we can sign players that are as good as Man City et al, our managers are handicapped from the off.

The Under-23s are top of Premier League 2. They play a 4-4-2 and press high up the pitch. No moments or second phases mentioned.

The first team play with 2 centre backs, 2 wing backs, 1 defensive midfielder, 1 creative midfielder, 1 number 10, 2 wingers, 1 striker, zonal defending, need to play better in moments and make sure you defend the second phase.

I know which I'd be more comfortable receiving instructions on.

Too much overcoaching these days when the simple fact is if players attacked (or at least tried to attack the ball) then they might just find that they would win more headers than they actually concede.

It's embarrassing to see big lads like Keane, Zouma and Mina regularly concede headed goals and if I was one of those lads of those heights and physiques then I'd be personally embarrassed by it.

The trouble is with our players these days though, who hurts enough when we concede goals?

ps: I've seen the Derek Mountfield interview on Toffee TV also, the Final Word on the Watford defeat – very interesting video listening to a man who knew what old school defending was all about.

Tony #18, Bernard is actually among the players I see giving maximum effort every minute. Not always to great effect, but he never gives up.

You can also say Simeone, who by his own admission doesn't really take training preferring to leave it to Vizcaino and Burgos. Great motivator though I'm sure you'll agree.

Even our friendly neighbour Klippety has always surrounded himself with good coaches like Krawietz and previously Buvac. And though I hate to say it Klopp can certainly motivate his teams.

Outside football, Eddie Jones, though admittedly a good coach repeats himself time after time saying that he sees a great part of his job getting the players up and motivated for games.

So saying, those " motivational" days are past may not necessarily be right. There is always a place for motivation in any sport at any level and to think otherwise I believe is nonsense.

Seems a bit pointless having a great tactician and coach like Silva is supposed to be, and at the same time, he's not able to get anything over to the players.

There is no excuse, coach just isn't up to it, players are lazy, spoilt and nowhere near as good as they think they are, and we are sinking fast. The players need some survival and character training with the Royal Marines; after that, football would be a walk in the park.

John, The "motivators" you mention ensure that the teams are properly coached. It's not training for fitness purposes or to keep them "sharp". It's specified coaching to do particular things tailored towards the next opponent.

Jurgen Klopp might be a bit of a clown, but don't mistake him as a Redknapp type. Klopp was the one who brought the pressing game to Germany. He and Buvac shared an idea there, and maybe he relied heavily on Buvac's intellect and tactical awareness, but they shared common ideas and goals, and between them they coached sides to be able to play a certain way. Klopp cannot be dismissed just as a motivator.

Simeone I'm very aware of which is why I asked someone to think carefully about why they thought Simeone would be a success at Everton. I think he probably would be too, but certain things would have to happen, including bringing his entire backroom staff, a few particular players and major funding.

And sure motivation is a big part of football. The motivational coach, like Redknapp, is done. An example of his coaching comes from Rafael Van Der Vaart:

"Harry is a very special man, that's why I already feel at home at Spurs. It feels like I'm back on the street.

"There are no long and boring speeches about tactics, like I was used to at Real Madrid. There is a clipboard in our dressing room but Harry doesn't write anything on it! It's very relaxed. The gaffer gives us the line-up 20 minutes before we go out to do our warm-up."

"And the only words he speaks to me are 'You play left or right, work hard, have fun and show the fans your best. Then the defenders get an instruction about who to mark at corners and free-kicks – and that's it."

"It's not that we do nothing – but it's close to that. For instance, last weekend Gareth Bale scored a header against Blackburn from my corner. But we didn't train one minute on it, it was pure luck. Good kicking, good heading, nothing more. And our win at home over Champions League winners Inter Milan was a clear example of playing on intuition. You can't train the goal I scored in that game.

"Of course the players need to have the qualities to end in the good position and the gaffer has to select the best squad. But in the end, it's all about feeling and that's what I have right now at Spurs. I try to give the best assist possible and guys like Bale try to score a goal out of it. That's our tactic!"

This is what is done, John. Old fashioned English managers without a clue. If someone is a good motivator but works with a great coach and they work in tandem or as part of a large team, then great, that's fine. Alex Ferguson was the master of that. You need a lot more than mere motivation.

Motivation only takes you so far. If Everton are to get in the top four, they need a manager who is either an excellent coach or works with an excellent coach, is an excellent tactician and can develop players. Motivation plays a big part for sure. All the elements need to combine.

The examples of Emery, Sarri and Silva surely show you that successful coaches cannot always get things changed quickly and successfully. They all had half decent starts (at least) and have since tailed off (at least). If they are all still at their present clubs in a year's time then I would bet their sides are doing a lot better than they are now.

If Silva is a poor communicator then his past players would complain about it. You don't see it because he's not. And he's at his best one on one. He's clearly not at his best talking to the press, and I don't understand why you guys would think that's how he is with his players.

Having motivation, be it coming from within oneself or from a coach/person/psychologist is the key to any kind of achievement.

Look at tennis and how fit Roger Federer has kept himself well into his 30s – do people think he'd be putting his body through the rigours that sport brings if he wasn't such a highly motivated human being and super professional?

Our players seem to lack personal mental strength and motivation, why who knows, perhaps it's the fact that wages are now so high or they just genuinely don't believe they will ever achieve anything great at Everton Football Club.

Our managers of recent years have been unable to instil motivation into them and it's like a teacher at school who just couldn't ever quite get through to those kids that were only there just to arse about and didn't want to learn.

The principle is the same -in football and we have seen it here at Everton.

David Moyes, for all his downfalls on other aspects, put together a group of highly motivated men that were never quite good enough to win silverware and be world class but they worked their socks off for eachother and the manager.

I don't think we have a player in our squad with self-motivation like say, Tim Cahill, Alan Stubbs, Davie Weir, Nigel Martyn, or Lee Carsley to name just a handful there.

Those were players who wouldn't need a manager motivating them, and we don't possess players of that ilk anymore.

No tactical awareness and certainly no motivation.

In my mind a good coach can set a team up to play a certain way. If that doesn't come off then he can change shape, tactics, personnel mid-game to affect the game. Have you seen it happen so far this season??

Quite interesting article I have just noticed on the BBC seems the Rugby lads invited Terry down to give a motivational talk to the players. So motivation at the top level doesn't seem to be Luddite after all.

You mention top coaches and unfortunately so far Silva has shown himself anything but.

No doubt his phenomenal achievements at the mighty Estoril, Hull and Watford may be the nadir of his career. Maybe they were his level, who knows.

I would imagine players would rather get a chat from the likes of Klopp who deserves recognition than the likes of the unproven Naglesmann and his 42-inch tellys.

Watch Chelsea and you see a team that looks to lack coaching and tactics. But Sarri was the world's most sought after coach last summer. For a lot of football writers, he was second only to Guardiola as world's best coach.

Can it not be that Sarri, Emery and Silva need time. that by simply allowing them this time and coming out the other side, you will then see the impact of his coaching, as the players appear "transformed" next season. That by signing the No 6 he needs to make his tactics work, they actually do work, and suddenly we're not crediting him with a good draw at Chelsea away, but we are actually beating them.

Little credit is given to Silva for the turning point in Sarri's season. Up to Everton playing Chelsea, they were flying. Silva was the one drew up the blueprint for targeting Jorginho. At this point, the Brazilian Italian was winning rave reviews and having a good season, yet Silva went after him with Gylfi and suddenly we found a way to stop them playing. Every team since has copied Silva's blueprint.

All of this is irrelevant anyway, Silva is guaranteed time unless Everton lose the next three games and make his position untenable. At the very least, I expect him to get Everton to limp home in no lower than 12th, for Brands to have already got the players sorted that we need and then for us to have a fresh start next season. That's the reality of the matter. I still wouldn't rule out beating Cardiff and Liverpool and then rocketing back up the table on the back of it.

Nonsense, he sacrificed dead rubbers in Europe to get us out of the relegation mire, he may have won 100% of the home games he has been in charge of, but we only averaged three goals a game.

And what about Southampton? Just because he inherited a team in free fall which couldn't buy an away win and every single one of his defenders were injured, doesn't mean he shouldn't have played them off the park.

Next you'll be claiming he didn't have any time on the training pitch with the players and he couldn't bring anyone in because the window was closed.

And Just because his peers voted him the best coach in the league and against all odds his team are leading the table again... doesn't mean he actually knows what he is doing.

Steve I can understand you doggedly doing a Tammy Wynette and standing by your man, but in doing so your rationale and logic does wobble a tad as a result.

On the one hand you claim: "It takes a long time to fix these things, you don't improve a player in a couple of games, you improve him over a couple of years. A great coach doesn't whisper a few magic words and suddenly a player is transformed" — even though previously you constantly promoted the idea we would see a near immediate improvement in players and team performances under Silva.

You extend this claim to Emery at Arsenal and Sarri at Chelsea, but this ignores the fact that both these teams and their managers made storming starts to the season and that their falling away is only very recent, and certainly nowhere near as precipitous or as prolonged as Silva's Everton.

Chelsea were keeping pace with Man City and Liverpool early doors and Arsenal went on an all-conquering unbeaten run for I don't know how many games. So in comparison to what went on for both teams last season, the two new managers to the Premier League surprised me at how well they adapted and improved their sides.

That kinda undermines one of your claims.

You then ask people to find the evidence to prove Silva is a crap coach. The adjective you use is an extreme one, but it is more than reasonable that long-suffering Evertonians can point to (to date) half a season of benevolent fixtures since the loss at Anfield in early December - almost 3 months now – and say "play back our games in that time for evidence of a coach who is not improving our results or performances, either of the team or individuals".

And then you offer the idea that 'motivators' are a dying species amongst managers.

Seriously?

I agree with you, the game has moved on and a manager's motivational skills alone won't carry the day. The implication in your claim is that motivational skills are redundant, period.

I would vehemently disagree with you. I don't pretend to know what goes on behind the scenes or in the changing rooms of any football club, but given the attention to detail these days, I would hazard a guess that many a manager has many a psychological trick they pull to get a performance or reaction from his team or individual players. It wouldn't surprise me if many of the very best coaches actively study psychology and how to apply it in their work.

Now whether this is part of Silva's armoury, I don't know. You yourself flag up the difference, for example, of United this season under Mourinho (himself a Master of Motivation and psychology) and now under Solskjær. Same players. Same team. Completely transformed, and not primarily due to tactics or instruction, but simply by...smiling.

I get the argument about the modern day players' own motivational powers (or absence, thereof). I've long been posting we need more narks, more nastiness, more winners, at the club.

Clearly, we don't have anyone standing up and assuming that role on the pitch, so that is a squad personality failure that should be prioritized by Brands and Silva (if he is still about) in the summer.

But I am not so ready to exempt Silva from all and any blame as you attempt in this thread Steve as to the turn of events since the 96th minute of the derby game across the park.

If you want to interpret that as "We don't need to bother with any motivation at all," then give your own head a wobble. That ain't what I'm saying.

Sarri did get out the traps well, but the wheels came off ever since they played us and it's inevitable that he will be sacked, despite the odd good win.

Emery did not, he had a stuttering start then that long unbeaten run where they ascended to 5th before stuttering ever since.

Both are undoubtedly top coaches and yet it's not working for them. It cannot always work immediately, and sometimes it does not work at all. It does not mean that "Sarri-Ball" is crap or doesn't work in England, or Sarri cannot do well in England or all the other rubbish I've read from clueless journo's who are delighting in a top-level coach failing in English football as if that somehow means English football is the greatest in the world. We need to win a few more Champions Leagues if we want to talk up the strength of our league.

Just because it ain't worked yet, does not mean that the penny will not drop soon, and suddenly we will start playing better and winning games. If a kid is failing at school, it does not mean the teacher is bad, there can be a number of factors and it might just take time for the teacher to get through to the kid. Chelsea's players have not performed consistently for Mourinho, Conte or Sarri. That's three of the best coaches in world football. Perhaps it's the players, not the coach eh? Our players haven't performed for Koeman, Allardyce and now Silva, some for Martinez as well, so perhaps the players again eh?

The way things are going, my money's on the later hit!

We're not going down this season so let's see how it goes looking for positives rather than being negatives. We're not going to win anything this year but we never do so he has the room to experiment, lose a few games but hopefully free from negativity pressure from the fans. It can do dreadful harm.

I'd say that next season is where we should be fairly judgemental. I don't blame the coach necessarily, they are much smaller cogs in the machine than they once were. We've shown how ineffective changing them is.

Naughty Derek, naughty... but very funny!

Sadly I have yet to see the half-team you suggest are okay. Nobody has had a good season in terms of ability to turn a game in a positive way or show leadership over more than the odd flurry.

Tony, spot on. Not sure if I was wallowing in nostalgia watching Chelsea vs Man Utd but it reminded me of our great '80s team where we just steam-rollered the opposition.

Chelsea and Utd players got Mourinho sacked because some of their influential players didn't like him. The same Chelsea players got Conte sacked, and now they look to have seen off Sarri. It's a dreadful state of affairs.

The players have too much power. If a manager starts giving them drills or tactics that they don't like, they simply stop performing and get rid. A manager has to be a friend first and coach second. He spends the whole time walking a tightrope, knowing that he can only push so hard before the players push back.

Chelsea are more interested in keeping Hazard happy than their manager, so what chance does he have?

Silva needs to be supported by the club and supporters. At the moment there are too many players who know how to get rid of a manager.

A dozen or more players need to be sold at huge losses just to get the club into a state of neutrality. Remove the negativity, and players offering nothing, then slowly build again.

Silva gets a pass this season from me. We need to get behind him and show other clubs how to really support your manager and team.

You lost me when you put Silva in the same bracket as Emery and Sarri – both enormously successful in quality leagues.

I think it is pointless point-scoring to carry on arguing fine points.

I would love to be proved wrong but I don't think Silva will ever make a top six coach in the Premier League.

You won't. It's like asking a great boxer to perform with one arm.

Bobby 78,

You will be in a very small minority with that one.

First up Steve, because I was writing my post @ 68 I had not seen your post quoting Van der Vaart on Harry Redknapp, so my post referenced your earlier posts critiquing 'motivational' managers in which you only offered Ancelotti as an example (a rather poor example, I would venture).

Now you extend your notion of 'motivational only' managers to Redknapp, Warnock and Allardyce, claiming they "don't bother with coaching".

To make and support that claim Steve I rather think you need to:

1) define what constitutes 'coaching', and

2) offer up evidence that they went/go into any game without any 'coaching' (by any definition) and that their teams just made it up on the hoof.

I think you are confusing different managerial styles and different coaching styles. Putting aside football aesthetics, all 3 of them are smarter tacticians then you seemingly want to give them credit for. All 3 of them can be considered to have had long successful careers in an extremely stressful and demanding job.

You quote Van der Vaart seemingly with the intention to deride Harry Redknapp (and managers of his ilk), as if this single example defines absolutely the limitations of a 'motivational manager'.

Have you considered that maybe, in the white heat of battle on match day, players don't need their heads cluttered with complicated instruction? That Redknapp was doing his players a favour by stripping things down to their dumbest basics?

The same can be said at the interval. There is no time or need to present a long tactical analysis and sermons on the failings of the first half. A good and effective coach can deliver with brevity a memorable message that a player, in the bedlam of the half-time changing room, can understand.

I'll give you an example. Bobby Robson. Would you dismiss him as 'just a motivational manager', or a 'shrewd tactician'?

He frequently used a very simple instruction to his defenders for set pieces: "You all know your jobs. Don't be the dummy that switches off".

Tactically decrepit, or motivational magician?

As for your re-writing of Chelsea's form, the wheels hardly "came off [IMMEDIATELY] ever since [Chelsea] played us" early November. That is more a recent phenomenon since the New Year, nothing to do with Silva 'exposing' Sarriball that others have copied, as you attempt to claim.

Similar thing for your claim about Arsenal. "Emery had a stuttering start..?" Did he bollocks! His first two fixtures were home to the reigning champions Man City, then away to Chelsea, both of whom went on long unbeaten runs themselves (City's run ending with a 2-0 defeat by Sarri's Chelsea. Guardiola obviously didn't watch the video on Silva's masterclass on how to negate Chelsea, I guess).

After those two tough opening fixtures, Arsenal then had a long run of unbeaten games stretching to 20-odd from the end of August to mid-December.

The 'stuttering form' both have shown in comparison to Everton's 96th minute defeat over the park, 13 games ago, places Everton 17th in the form table (ahead of only Brighton, Fulham and Huddersfield), with Arsenal 6th and Chelsea 7th.

I wish our form was so 'stuttering'.

On the question of the players, I've said my piece. We don't have winners or narks and it is something that needs addressing.

But again, Silva – as did Sarri at Chelsea and Emery at Arsenal – was getting a tune out of his players for the first dozen games.

Why isn't he now?

Use whatever verb you like Steve, but besides preparing and coaching the players, he needs to motivate them, inspire them, to better performances and getting results.

He is currently failing on all counts.

Also, didn't Deeney have a pop at him the other week before the Watford game?

I tell you what, Steve, never mind 'rose-coloured glasses' you have fuckin multicoloured psychedelic big fuck-off Elton John ones on when you 'talk up' this guy.

Silva has a Premier League record of being a rubbish manager... a bit like Andre Villas-Boas.

Bearing so much effort we barely troubled the City goalkeeper, and the Watford goalkeeper, it's very sadly, become expected now.

Basic defending and ownership and accountability is needed for any football team to tick over. This squad doesn't have it and doesn't have an effective captain, regardless if it's Seamus, Tom or Leighton.

The communication, spirit, guts, skill, motivation and mental capability of this squad does vouch for any level of consistency.

This season, even when we had luck, we barely scraped the wins at home that put us in the top 6.

Get back to basics, 4-4-2, else a system the players understand. This experiment is not reliable, isn't working and goals for chances created and goals conceded and set-piece mistakes and goals against us from dead balls, must provide the facts to show this.

If any statos, on this thread have such data to hand it would be interesting to see.

I don't want another Everton manager sacked, but the next few weeks could get very toxic. Hopefully in 2 weeks we upset the odds, and win. That would be a welcome change.

The myth that we were playing some great football prior to the derby is just that, a myth.

I do think, however, that Silva will be given until the end of the season to show some signs of improvement.

Hopefully after sitting on their fat arses for 17 days Silva and the team will put in a vastly improved performance against Cardiff.

There can be no excuses now. Well, except from the usual mob.

Steve – I disagree. (Anyone who watches them live often please correct me if I'm wrong as I only catch clips and read commentary). The U23s will often line up 4-4-2. In the last game, they had Sambou and Hornby playing who are both strikers, where 1 might line up slightly behind the other, it is still in effect a 4-4-2 formation. In addition, Broadhead and Gordon don't line up as wingers the same way that Richarlison et al do; they are more like wide midfielders who, in turn, offer more protection to the team defensively.

Therefore it is nothing like the 4-2-3-1 that the first team do.

I've admittedly only seen them live once this season, vs Oldham in the Checkatrade Trophy, but they lined up 4-4-2 that day with the same principles I've just mentioned – 2 forwards, wide midfielders and 2 central midfielders who played like all round midfielders.

Like I said, I base this on little actual live viewing so, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

Silva's problem is his failure to get this team to perform well with any consistency. The players may be at fault but it is always the manager who gets sacked if the results are poor, never the players, and that will never change.

During an interview a good manager named Brian Clough said, "You can't have a good team without a good manager, and a good manager makes a good team."

As an another example of a good manager and good players (and whether you like this or not) Graeme Souness said, after he had joined Liverpool, he complained to Bob Paisley, before his debut, that nobody had told him what to do or explained the way they wanted him to play. Paisley replied, "We have just spent all that money on you and you want us to show you how to play football?"

Simples, to me anyway: Good managers make good players better and good players know how to play football and what is expected from them.

Regardless of eras, style of play etc, good players should have high standards of their own, and a belief in their God-given ability. Good managers should be able to reinforce that belief.

I hope Mr Moshiri is watching the same programme.

LMFAO! (All night!!)

The fact that Francis said his anger at being so crucified inspired him to score twice in the away match and thereby win the game would be inconceivable to our pampered lot.

Hopefully Everton will get some results in the coming games and will improve. But I do have similar concerns. In my opinion, Silva has lost hope.

The tactics and selection in the last game, I found alarming. He tried to address problem areas but failed with tactics and selection that seemed to have no rhyme nor reason.

I think, like you, that Unsworth would be better till the end of the season. He would pick players who could do the job in the position selected and give clear instructions to them. . . He also would have the team set up in a more practical way to get a result. He would get the minimum points Everton need.

In my opinion, Silva has had opportunities to improve results, but hasn't capitalised on them.

I'm so tired of empty words. How many more players are going to talk shit?

Fail to beat Cardiff in 6 days and that will speak volumes.

Paisley said, "Look, son, if you get confused out there on the pitch and don't know what to do, stick the ball in the back of the net, and I'll explain the tactics later."

Awful, awful decision to let this natural footballer go out on loan while the lighthouses continue to be exposed.

So many contradictions in life, when people want a strong manager, but accept that these players can just down tools and even just stop trying.

The fact that Francis, scored two in the second game showed that Clough was right, and even Trevor Francis found character, which the powers that be have slowly but surely taken out of football, and the fans can just accept, that the game has just moved on?

Average footballers have got millions in the bank, and when you've got that much money, then nobody can tell you what to do!

I think the most telling info from the Bernard interview is that a lot of the players do not know what Silva is on about half the time and he does not explain himself clearly. If you have to explain the same thing 5 or 6 times to groups of players, that is not them being thick – it is him not doing it in a concise, easy-to-understand way. When you see how we are playing at the moment, it explains why.

7/4 fav Lucas Digne

''How class act Leighton Baines and Marco Silva has helped his move into the Premier League.''

Sorry Jim, just a bit of fun.

It all makes perfect sense now, thanks to Bernard explaining how confusing things are under Marco Silva.

Excellent interview.

As for Harry Redknapp. He may have had success, but for me, he is a terrible manager. Disagree if you want, that's fine. Van der Vaart was actually trying to praise Harry with what he said, but for me it was just yet another example of his poor coaching. This thread is not about Redknapp and I'm far too busy to go and start posting quote after quote of players who are not quoting him slamming him for his coaching, his tactics, and his match preparation.

Bobby Robson is someone, that you know, I know, managed Sporting, and so I am fully aware of his excellent reputation there as a "tracksuit manager" on the coaching ground and getting his hands dirty. Bobby was a very underrated manager. He combined good coaching and motivational skills.

Back to Silva, of course he needs to motivate the players, to coach them and inspire them to better results and performances and he is failing to do so. So is Sarri. So is Emery. Good managers cannot get it right every time. They can even have disastrous seasons, such as Bielsa taking Lille from 11th (they sacked their previous manager for dropping from a 5th place finish the year before) to bottom of the league. This is the guy that Guardiola and many others call the "best coach in the world" and had Leeds top and steaming towards promotion (although Bielsa fatigue may have set in now). Sometimes, things just don't work. That does not mean they won't work. And it does not mean that Silva is coaching the players badly, it does not mean he cannot motivate them, and it does not mean that he is not working hard. Each defeat hurts him. He's not shrugging his shoulders, knocking off at four, and going golfing with his mates, or being pictured all smiles with celebratory friends in fancy Manchester restaurants.

I like you wanted Silva and I still believe we should give him till at least next December. But as previous Prime Minister said when asked about what made the job so hard and he replied " events dear boy events". I think the same applies to managers what kills them is results dear boy results, plus how fans react to the poor results.

Maybe it would make a lot of sense for Brands to suggest to Marco to promote Unsworth to work with the first team. Now I know a lot of managers take the same backroom staff around with them, but it can also mean if there were faults at previous clubs having the same backroom staff maybe the same faults will re occur. I think thats were Ferguson was clever he changed his assistant managers every couple of years.

One thing that looks impressive, is how few goals the Under-23'S, have conceded, but maybe if we started working on defence, it might destroy our fine offensive play!

I offer a different opinion to yours, that's all. And I do so with supported facts, not fabrication. Stop being resentful all the time whenever people do not accept absolutely your worldview on all matters related to Silva and Everton. There are perfectly good reasons why you are challenged on some of your posts.

Take responsibility for your own exaggerated claims in this thread that I (and others) legitimately counter, Steve. And indeed your OWN pedantry you present in your latest post.

I am with you, up to a point . I want him to turn it around and stay and build.

I wanted Silva too, and I was thinking the other day he is desperate to succeed here. Too desperate. He is overthinking things and almost trying too hard. As a result of it common sense and the basics are being forgotten about.

I am hoping this prolonged break has allowed him to take a step back from the storm and have time to reflect . Come back with new ideas and fresh outlook. With our problems on the way to being mended.

Where I differ is with our squad we were expected to finish 7th according to the spread markets in August. If we continue to nose dive and carry on the same form until May and labour to 45 points, to me that is relegation form.

There's no way if there is no improvement between now and then he can be trusted to turn it round next season. It would be reasonable to say we would get more of the same. Better to part ways than risk that.

This break has given Marco an opportunity to recover, I am expecting a lot better, starting with Cardiff and I want a result against the RS too.

He is most definitely on probation in these last 11 games. I want him to succeed . The last thing the club needs is more upheaval .

But upheaval in May it must be, if Silva doesn't show he is turning it around.

He looked OK at RB but not a patch on Kenny.

Thanks,i didn't think he would get a game at centre back.
Even in the Championship.
His best chance of a career in the Prem, in my opinion, would be if he forgot about centre half and tried to develop himself as a right back. He has the attributes to do that.

If so could you expand on why.

Coz!

The language that encourages debate is back.

For £xmillion for being shite, I could just about deal with it!

Off to see gaffer tomorrow to renegotiate contract

117?

Soloman Rondon may not be the most prolific scorer, but he is one hell of a handful for any premier league center back, it was after watching Holgate fold him up and put him in his arse pocket That Moore decided he wanted him. His first attempt failed. we wouldnt let him go, but Silva then spent a fortune on a lighthouse and decided (for reasons known only to himself ) that the persistently poor Keane was his man.

Moore got his man, but while his center backs were doing ok, his full back - Tosin Adarabioyo - was having a Weston. He couldnt adjust to the championship.
It was a no-brainer for Moore. In went mason and he has been outstanding for them.
Silva doesnt fancy Holgate, but every other manager he as played for has been happy to put him in at centre back at 20 + 21 years old.
It takes a rare level of ignorance to claim a young man who has acquitted himself against some of the best foward's in the premiership while still a baby, is not good enough to play center back in the championship . . simply because he is naturally skilled enough to replace a full back who was giving his manager nightmares. The fact is, West Broms other two center halves simply don't possess the required skill.

Its a wonder any kid is prepared to play for this club, the level of ignorant criticism must make them want to run a mile.

Still I expect nothing more from a guy who cheered the arrival of Ashley Williams as loudly as he cheered the departure of John Stones.

But doesn't play him at centre half.

Can you post a list of Premier clubs who wanted to take this fantastic centre half on loan with the majority of his wages paid by Everton?

Who was the guy "who cheered the arrival of Ashley Williams as loudly as he cheered the departure of John Stones."?

Our survey says. ❌❌❌

"First and foremost, He is a good, good player. He is quick, agile, athletic and comfortable on the ball" - Darren Moore

Poor Mason wont get a wink of sleep when he finds out the guy who criticised John Stones relentlessly, doesn`t rate him

Like I say. I'm astounded any kid stays here to listen to the relentless shite from the philistines.

"Ah want ma defenders to bluddy well defend . . av it"

I'm one who always agitated for more chances for him there (especially instead of Gashley), but with Silva here now and the purchases of Keane and Mina, I think that boat has sailed.

And with Holgate's blazing pace, he might make a hell of a RB if his passing has improved.

I won't play him centre half though

Second time.
Who was the guy "who cheered the arrival of Ashley Williams as loudly as he cheered the departure of John Stones."

Talk about an inability to understand the situation... If Moore had a right back. Holgate would be playing Center half. He doesn't and the other two can't play ful... ah forget it.

Mike.

Holgate was probably a teenager when Koeman arrived. When Coleman wasn't available he still trusted his young footballing centre-back to play in a different role more than he trusted seasoned pro's to move out of their one-dimensional comfort zone.

Jagielka had played at right back and was absolutely gash. Williams was, well Williams. I didn't think I would ever defend Koeman, but his situation was similar to the one Darren Moore faces now... what choice did he have

How can you possibly know that?

Maybe, just maybe, Moore has taught him something about passing the ball -- he has three assists now in seven games at WBA, two more than in his entire Everton career -- and maybe, just maybe, Silva (if he's still here) will give him a chance to compete for RB minutes next year. I don't care where Holgate plays as long as it's with us.

Moore didn't teach Holgate to pass the ball. He just introduced him to a group of players who actually make the pass possible.

Plattini would have struggled to pass the ball playing for Koeman or Allardyce.

Unfortunately for Mason – Mina, Zouma, Coleman, Digne and Keane took to it like ducks to water.

Why didn't managers from the Premier League take him on loan? Especially as Everton were paying the majority of his wages?

And that cross Holgate made last week for the goal was better than any cross I ever saw him make for us -- good lord, he made Hibbo look like Arteta on the ball -- so he and/or Moore must take credit for some improvement in his game.

His deficiencies for me are occasional lapses of concentration and a suspect temperament. It doesn't seem to take much to light his fuse.

Having said all that, I still think he has potential because centre-backs tend to mature much later than other positions.

I don't know what it is about Some Evertonians and younger players (I keep meaning to do a piece about it) but Stones was hounded at this club.

A brilliant, brilliant player who committed the unforgivable crime of making a few errors while he was learning his trade.

I agree with you about Holgate, Darren, and I also agree with the words of the WBA manager, but the one thing he omitted to mention was that Holgate was strong, and this has got to be one of the major requirements of a top class centre-half?

I think if Holgate can beef up, up-top, then he can go all the way to the top, but if he doesn't, then I'm not sure that he's going to reach his natural potential?

Nicely set up the winning goal for WBA last night, but it shouldn't be ignored that he was partly culpable in QPR's first goal also, way behind the wide man who was his responsibility and who had a free run on goal to score.

Not one Premier League manager came in for Holgate. Despite Everton paying the majority of his wages. That has got to tell you something.

Darren,

My last post on this one for tonight. Do yourself a favour when debating (haha) – stick to the points and facts. Making things up does nothing for the continuity of the thread.

If we had a taller keeper and Holgate played well enough, why wouldn't Silva play him. He played him early in the season without a problem, he only made way for Zouma. Silva said a lot of positives about Holgate too. If he didn't think he was tall enough he'd have shoved him to right back and he didn't seem too keen to do that.

Bernard – I love this footballer for his attitude and his unbelievable ball control. He plucked one ball out of the sky on the left wing at Watford which even brought a round of applause from their fans.

Jay Harris – on Holgate “It doesn't seem to take much to light his fuse.” A quality I like to see in a footballer – we just need to teach him how to control it.

Cardiff is a chance to show what he can do on a training ground. 17 days is a very long time and you would hope they've organised a behind clothes door friendly so as not to get ring rusty.

Actually it doesn't tell me much, but it does kinda confirm what I always suspected... what a question!

Why didn't a Premier League rival not approach Everton about a player they didn't know was available and who could make them a greater threat to us and ask us to loan him out to them and pay the "majority of his wages"? ... Hmm, Tough one.

After seeing and admiring Holgate's performances at centre-half, Darren Moore made repeated discreet inquiries. How do I know? Because he fucking told us. That is how Holgate ended up at West Brom. It suited the decision-makers at Goodison.

I can find no evidence that Everton are still paying "the majority of Holgate's wages" ... I'd be interested to see that report.

Tony

That's just it. Moore`s team score a lot on counter-attack, West Brom commit a lot of men forward, but there is a risk involved. If the centre-backs or the defensive midfielder surrender possession, they are likely to catch most of their team mates bombing forward. It's not the full backs fault; it's a calculated risk taken by the coach.

I see, that's obviously the reason not one single player went from one Premier League club to another Premier League club on loan this season? (Not)

Do your homework before jumping in.
Tip: look at our squad for examples.

Tip – Stop making moronic statements about youngsters' situations you clearly know nothing about and you won't need to spend the rest of the thread digging yourself deeper making even more nonsense up.

Your non-stop criticism of John Stones when he was learning his trade now makes you look very foolish indeed. Don't make the same mistake by battering away at the latest young centre-half.

Most people are delighted to see one of our youngsters do well on their loan periods. It takes a rare kind of malevolence to use a great piece of work as an excuse to attack his ability to play in his natural position.

You've made my mind up though. I will definitely be penning a piece about the destructiveness of youngster bashing.

Perhaps you can simultaneously pen one about its merits?

I will give you one thing: You have got a better swerve than George Best in his prime.

Getting on the backs of young players is poison; we need to get behind them as we need to get behind the team in these difficult times. Social Media gives us a platform to complain but it isn't mandatory, is it?

Simeone apologises for cojones celebration, but says it came from the heart. He turned to the home fans and grabbed his crotch. Saying he did it as a player as well, to show the fans that we have cojones and fight for them.

A manager with fight in him, please get him here. We have Silva who looks lost most of the time and no fight in him at all.

"Getting on the backs of young players is poison, we need to get behind them as we need to get behind the team in these difficult times."

I agree 100% and have posted advocating that regularly.

Please don't be swayed by the imbeliic comments made by a poster suggesting I made "non-stop criticism of John Stones" or indeed any other young player. The comments are from a poster using his usual tool of fabrication in an attempt to enhance his silly points.

An example from Darren "Most people are delighted to see one of our youngsters do well on their loan periods. It takes a rare kind of malevolence to use a great piece of work as an excuse to attack on his ability to play in his natural ability." — If I could work out what he intends to portray in that comment I would respond.

Further to your invitation to pen an article on the merits of youngster bashing. If you can show one example of where I have done that I will happily respond. But you can't, can you?

"To get £# for a defender as poor as John Stones is unbelievable"

"I didn't understand how one or two TW members Labeled Stones the new Bobby Moore. I didn't rate him at all and was happy we sold him. A poor centre-half who won't be playing for Man City next season. I have never wavered in my support for Ronald Koeman. He will be a great Everton manager."

And what about this gem after claiming Holgate isn't good enough at centre-half:

"Holgate is a better defender than Stones even at this early stage of his career. A Rolls-Royce of a player."

Stop digging. The relentless nastiness you leveled at Stones when he was here is still on these pages for anyone who wants to search for it. You wouldn't even leave it alone when he was gone... just as you are pursuing Holgate with your snidey "not good enough for the Championship" comments when he is playing elsewhere.

Fabrication? ... My Arse.

Can you dig feverishly through my further posts when I mention I underestimated John Stones's ability while maintaining the fact that he has a mistake a game in him, and further mentioning his undoubted improvement?

I did indeed post that I considered Holgate a better defender at the same age as John Stones. I still do.

Now back on topic. Can you post any examples of my youngster bashing?

I gave an honest opinion on my evaluation of Stones ability as a defender at the time.

I praised his football ability but criticised his defensive ability AT THE TIME.
Not "youngster bashing" (an emotional term formed by a regular poster) in my opinion.

Darren is right though: Youngsters at Everton are not allowed to make a mistake before they are criticised and written off.

Most club supporters have a high level of patience for their local lads trying to break through, but not us. I have never really understood it as it is guaranteed to shatter their confidence.

Whereas mediocre players are able to win Everton fans fondness and adoration simply by running round like headless chickens and working up a sweat. I give you Stracqualursi and Niasse to name but two.

If you consider my posts giving an honest opinion on a player as "bashing" you must have led a very sheltered life.

Darren #165, how did you find all that? Is there a search function in TW that I didn't know about?

No link as far as I know, be interesting if there was that facility.

You just have to scroll through post after post from over 3 years ago.
It will take hours upon hours of research, but if you have a point you think the research will enhance you may consider it worthwhile.

I would understand ''bashing'' on here to mean repeated criticism. Not sure what you are referring to.

It's not really my argument but it seems strange that when a poster has dug up repeated examples of you criticising a player who was about 20-21 at the time, you then ask him to provide evidence of "youngster bashing".

In answer I can only refer you to my point made to Steve at 171

Lukaku was still quite young while with us but was often criticised for lack of effort or being unable to trap a bag of cement.

Stones was criticised for his repeated defensive errors, mostly to him overplaying. Very different criticisms. Indeed, these gifted lads and the likes of Barkley were probably criticised more because they were capable of more.

Kenny, on the other hand, is a young lad openly giving his all, not flash and so is spared too much stick. In retrospect criticism of Barkley, Stones and Lukaku made no difference to them staying with us, as all 3 had their eyes on bigger things.

The problem all youngsters have is the availability of fully-fledged foreigners in their mid-to-late twenties ready to pop in and do a job straight away. Coaches don't have to be patient.

"In retrospect criticism of Barkley, Stones and Lukaku made no difference to them stayin with us, as all 3 had their eyes on bigger things."

Spot on.

And the same is true of the criticism (often seen here) of the club for not keeping them and building around them. It was never an option, except maybe Barkley. Those guys wanted to go. And I don't recall us ever selling a talented young player who didn't want to go.

Constructive criticism, during debate on the pages of a forum does no harm to the player. Never, ever have I or will I boo a player at the game.

The young "shot scuffing player who was unable to trap a bag of cement" (20 - 21 years of age) was lambasted on a weekly basis by one particular poster.

Perhaps that poster could explain the merits of doing so in his forthcoming "piece on the destructiveness of youngster bashing"

The "hours and hours of research" took about 30 seconds.

I wouldn't have bothered to be honest, its not nice to cast stuff up. We all make mistakes and forget what we said. But John G got nasty and accused me of lying.

I simply typed four words and the proof was right in front of me in seconds... all on one thread. There are numerous examples. of his Stones bashing.

It would appear that hammering a very young talented center half on a regular basis, is now called "giving an honest opinion"

If John Stones is not the most coveted defender in world football he is certainly one of them. It's amusing that a guy who criticised him all through his apprenticeship now claims Holgate who "couldn't get a game in the Championship at centre half" is better than him.

A classic example of a confused fool chasing himself up his own arse desperately trying to score a point.

He'll keep digging that hole. I'll get to work on that piece I was talking about...

Hey that just went viral!

Dermot #181, great chuckle. I've been saying that for years now, but nobody has ever paid attention. The membership here has always fantasized that our views get read by club management, our manager and the players. But I'm convinced we're all sitting around a virtual clubhouse, enjoying each other's company and shooting the shit, with the unheeding world passing by outside. I don't know what 22-year-old footballers read these days, but I'm pretty sure it's not an old-farts fan site.

Bang on the money. Some on TW apparently believe the opinions expressed on here affect the players' performances. Delusions of grandeur methinks.

TW is an excellent forum for Evertonians to exchange opinions and views, the best around in my view, but that is all it is. A football forum.

I base this on the fact that years ago, supporters points of view edited in the “ Pink Echo” were acted upon by the managers of Everton and Liverpool at that time, and I'd say the teams improved with the changes suggested.

I agree. Fan sites are an obvious way for clubs to gain an insight into the general feeling towards the manager, players, owner, stadium etc. If anyone was discussing you as a person/performer wouldn't you be intrigued to know what they were writing?

A young professional footballer who is a regular user of social media will find the temptation too much. Of course, they'll check the reports and comments of fans. I expect they're advised not to, but once they're home and flicking through their phones, some will undoubtedly read through articles and discussions about them.

I always felt that Barkley was the type of lad who would go home and read through the fans' reactions to him. Lukaku probably not so much.

With that thought, I bid you good evening.

If I was a player I would most certainly be scouring fan sites. I would simply have to know what they thought. Are they now so protected from the real world that it would not enter their mind? I suspect that Toffeeweb does have some influence.

Yes, Mike, I know it is a forum for old farts to vent. But... there is some pretty good journalism on this site. Some pertinent, articulate comment and a lot of people who don't post but read.

In the last days of the lamentable Martinez, I asked Lyndon to use this site to call for his dismissal. Wisely, he continued to report the facts, which, as it turned out, were enough.

Does, or has Blue Bill ever read this site? Does anyone at the club ever look at it? They really should. Does Toffeeweb reflect the views of most supporters or is an online pub for cynics? I honestly think it counts.

As to whether Moshiri or Bill read TW, I have no idea. The DOF and manager definitely wouldn't. Brian Doogan probably does, because his job description as a corporate PR director (which I once was myself) would generally require reading everything that's printed or posted about the club and alerting his bosses (I assume Richard Kenyon) to anything controversial or defamatory.

The is no suggestion that the players or any of the management team comes on TW and are affected by posts or that anybody outside its membership cares about what is written - That's just DB missing the point again.

You've been to the old lady, you have will have witnessed first hand how the stuff you read on here very much reflects what you will hear at the game.

I watched in disbelieve as one poster went from thread to thread after our last defeat ignoring the shortcomings of players who have cost 100 of Millions to single out a young substitute who cost 30 bob. He was only on for a quarter of an hour . . Do you think that poster will see things differently at the match ?

These days, they all have their own music in their headphones, I wonder if they have time to speak to each other.
Back then, I was surprised that even macho guys like Rat and Van den Hauwe would rather have disco groove music on on the way to a game rather than something rousing.
God knows what they listen to thesedays but who knows what they read.

My kids are 24 and 29 and neither of them read books or papers. They do read online but mostly watch videos, live tutorials and play games.
The players are around the same age group and they will all be on Insta, Snapchat, and all of the other social media stuff. They do, however listen to 5live and Talksport and the makers of these shows are aware of fansites like ours when checking on the zeitgeist.
I would think that with so many of the players now coming from foreign lands that the chances of them even listening a podcast is remote.
If they are on Twitter the vile abuse would upset them a lot more than the measured moans and groans on here.

The modern player is in a bubble. He has no need to care what we think. He won't be in the pub in some little Dutch town on a preseason jolly. The closest he get to the fans is taking a throw-in or getting off a bus to sign autographs. He might notice that he only has a few thousand likes on instagram but there are plenty more likes to be had tomorrow.

The only player who reads this site is Leighton Baines and he sometimes contributes, but not often, under a pseudonym. He told me this a few years ago at a friend's wedding.

I didn't think you would be old enough to have seen Spartacus when he played for us in the 50s. I liked him but a lot thought he was too gladiatorial.

I will get my coat.

Only very recently did I learn about The Secret Footballer (thanks to Brian Williams, I think it was), an ex-pro, who writes for The Guardian and has published four books.

I reference that because TSF was very categoric in his own view of fans and forums: he never reads them because the fans know bugger all about the inside workings of pro football and so their opinions were not worth reading.

Now that might put a few fans noses out of joint, but it is a view I can at least acknowledge. I am not saying that TW or other fans forums do not have knowledgeable or insightful contributors but, at the end of the day, we are 'mere fans' chewing the fat between us in a virtual pub.

To believe that our posts are'relevant' and that our ideas should be implemented to ensure an immediate improvement in the team's fortunes is vain in the extreme, IMO.

For one, there is such a wide range of conflicting opinions on every conceivable subject – the club ownership, direction, finances, manager, players, tactics – that there is never ever a consensus on any one of them.

And that diversity of opinion and human nature being what it is, no one can categorically say one way or the other if players read the likes of TW or not.

Equally, you cannot categorically say what are the motives of individual players should they read fans forums and how they react to what they read about themselves and the team.

Who knows? Maybe they read it for a laugh, a diversion. Maybe others take comments more seriously and are avidly interested in fans' assessment of their performances. Some may laugh comments off. Others may take them more to heart.

The players may live in a privileged bubble on one level, but in spite of what some believe, they are not totally stupid or so removed from life that they don't know of the existence of fans forums and their nature.

I wonder if footballers get advice and instruction on the merits and risks of reading such forums from their clubs. A confident character may visit a forum and laugh it off; a less confident player could have his self-belief undermined.

Whilst it is a great unknown if and how many Everton players may read (even post!) on TW, like Mike Gaynes @ 205 I am quite sure that the club monitors the site for any number of motives.

In closing, Eddie Dunn tells us Leighton reads and contributes, albeit rarely, to TW.

There is some sport in this: if an Everton player – past or present – were to post on TW under a pseudonym, which regular TW poster d'ya think they would be...?

Now and again, dozens of fans write their posts on here with the same moan or complaint about how a player makes the same mistake game after game. We point it out as constructive criticism, to try and improve their game, not for the sake of moaning. Some of the mistakes are that obvious, they are surely pointed out by their coaches, but the mistakes carry on... Maybe some players are just naturally thick, I've heard of one or two.

NEVER Dave, NEVER!!!

(Tongue firmly tucked in cheek).

He can't really come out in the press and say that, can he?

At least it has bigger all consequence.

When he is seen on the touchline his body language is not good and always gives the impression he is out of his depth and hasn't a clue what to do next. All this after Moshiri and Co went crazy to get him!

It's hard to be optimistic for what's ahead, no matter who they are playing, and the likes of Bernard defending him is ridiculous especially when he has been a no-show for many games himself.

"Agent, I'm a bit worried here, Silva has brought me in and we are playing shite, and we keep losing. I think he's about to get sacked.

"What's that? Yeah, Agent, it does worry me, what if the next manager doesn't like me?

"Yeah, it's not what I signed up for, they told me they were pushing for the top 6 and will be in the Champions League in a couple of seasons, but the way they are going, they are more likely to be relegated. So what do I do?

"Yeah okay, right, okay. So you will leak a few stories to the press and put it about that I'm unhappy here and try to get some interest in me and get me a move in the summer and you'll also tell the press what a crap manager Silva is so my bad form will all be blamed on him and not on me?

"Oh, you'll keep me as an 'unnamed source' so that no one knows it was me. Okay, so you think that'll work? Cheers Agent"

I'm sure players have a good laugh reading some of the polarized views on fan forums.

I bet they have wages on who gets the best player ratings on Toffee TV...

1. We have a new manager.
2. The start of the season has been pretty decent actually, where we saw significant improvement in our creative and forward play.
3. We signed 6 players for the 1st team for this season.
4. All of these 6 players are heavily involved in the first eleven this season.
5. Michael Keane is the only regular player from last season's back four, and he was only signed from last season. Basically, we lost most of the back four.

When we look back at Big Sam, Koeman and Martinez, besides #1 that they had in common with Silva, they didn't have to contend with any other of the pointers, each in and of itself, creates a significant upheaval to a team's performance.

Put all these factors in together, it's a little more than complex, isn't it?

Marco Silva deserves at least one more season, give the man some time.

Point 4 – Yerry Mina 㿇M.

Can't even get a game when our first-choice centre back is suspended.

Silva will probably be here next season but we need a forward this summer. Over to Brands.