Everton settle dispute with Watford over Silva

Friday, 22 February, 2019 128comments  |  Jump to last
Everton and Watford have "reached an amicable agreement" with respect to the latter's complaints to the Premier League over what they deemed to be an illegal approach for Marco Silva.

The Hornets hierarchy lodged a formal complaint with the Premier League, alleging that the Blues "tapped" Silva up when they were searching for a long-term successor to Ronald Koeman in November 2017.

Watford's form collapsed in the weeks after Everton tried to prise Silva away from Vicarage Road with compensation offers reportedly as high as £15m. The Hertfordshire club blamed their poor form on the approach from the Merseysiders, claiming they had unsettled the manager and some of their players.

Silva was sacked by Watford in January last year and hired by Everton the following May after interim boss Sam Allardyce was dismissed.

Watford had been pursuing censure of Everton through the Premier League, with the threat of millions of pounds in compensation and, in the worst case, a points deduction mooted as possible action the governing body could have taken.

The terms of the settlement have not officially been made public – reports suggest £4m was agreed – but statements put out by both clubs today stressed that "both Everton and Watford are keen to move on from this matter".  


Reader Comments (128)

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Pat Kelly
1 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:05:54
Another £4m down the drain on Silva. On top of the £10m over- paid on the Siggy deal. And the £6m salary being wasted. What next, a £10m payoff. All adds up to one expensive mistake.
Paul Setter
2 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:19:20
Great! We've paid for the privilege to go backwards. I can't wait for more months of every team knowing exactly what this fraud will peddle out.
John Roberts
3 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:24:29
Surely our form over the last 16 weeks negates any claim Watford have?
Jerome Shields
4 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:31:28
Moshiri possibly has a dilemma now.

Having giving Silva a 3-year contract and probably paid Watford some compensation, he would like to keep Silva into next season.

If Silva can't turn the results around, what does Moshiri do? — Lose more money.

Rob Dolby
5 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:37:05
It doesn't mention how much Watford have paid us.
James Stewart
6 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:37:15
The fact that we will be paying this compensation off virtually at the same time as whatever it will take to sack Silva only highlights our gross incompetence at hiring managers. Moshiri's record is horrendous.
Jim Bennings
7 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:39:48
Surely Watford should be over this by now?

They have not exactly gone backwards since Silva has left have they?

There’s no way we are finishing above them now, 7 points ahead, right now it’s hard to see us getting 7 more points this season let alone making that difference up to catch them.

Gary Willock
8 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:44:40
If it's reasonable, can we get Garcia?
Jim Bennings
9 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:51:03
My worry with Moshiri is he’s likely to sack Silva if we lost the next two and then go and replace him with bloody Mark Hughes lol.

Moshiri and the board need to have a proper serious summer with key decisions being made.

I’m not being funny but I don’t want to hear about plans for the stadium this summer because massive work is needed on the playing side as a matter of urgency, far more pressing than any would be stadium five years down the line, another five years of mediocrity and there will be nobody left interested in Everton enough to care.

This season has been a disaster and cannot be swept under the carpet.

John Keating
10 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:55:26
Just proves we are not as white as white as we thought we were.

Just another Club playing as dirty as the rest.

Tom McEwan
11 Posted 22/02/2019 at 22:58:11
Well, at least that's 3 points we are assured of between now and the end of the season.

The Everton Comedy Show, just runs and runs! We will surely beat the Mousetrap now for the longest run in the entertainment business.

Oh why oh why can't I be more positive??

Steve Ferns
12 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:00:34
Jim everything is about the stadium, in many ways it is more important than the first team. We have to move for the long term future of the club. If we spent the stadium money and had 5 consecutive seasons of top 6, but 5th and 6th only, then it's not enough. We need a new stadium to secure our future. It has to happen.

Also, Moshiri is only here to make money, let's make no mistake about that. The only way he makes a profit on Everton is by building that Stadium. Without it he's making a loss. Everything is about that stadium Jim. Sure, if we get relegated, then it's pointless as we won't need it. But, as long as we tick over in midtable, Moshiri can sell us for a tidy profit with a shiny new stadium. If he can transform us into a Champions League side, then he's making major profits. Just look at the Chelsea figures and see how Roman Abramovich will actually make money on them, it's shocking considering how much he spent in the early years.

So Jim, provided we get through this season in midtable, it will be swept under the carpet, and Moshiri will just tell Silva he wants better, much better, next season and he'll be left to get on with it.

Marcus Taylor
13 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:08:26
Derek #14

Yeah, he's a good player - on his day. He certainly likes playing against Cardiff. He's scored 5 of his 12 Premier League goals against them.

Tony Twist
14 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:08:32
Epitomizes the Moshiri era. Why we should head hunt this standard of football coach is beyond me. One hopes it's Mr Brands who does the sacking and hiring from now on. Mind you, that is of course presuming that Brands is up to the task.

If the present Leeds manager is being considered as a replacement then I despair. What honestly has changed for the better with this new set-up?

Rob Marsh
15 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:16:51
John Keating #11

They're all "At it" now.

All decency is now of the superficial variety and our ban proves it even goes as far as the U18s.

Derek Knox
16 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:19:31
Thanks Steve, I remembered the treatment by that mastermind and saboteur Koeman coming into it somewhere along the line, and yes when all things taken into account, he could certainly (Hypothetically) still do a job for us.

I also seem to remember him saying that Everton were the only Club he would consider playing for, oh how time has changed things.

Phil Sammon
17 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:26:53
The stadium isn’t everything and Moshiri’s willingness to spend big on transfers is proof of this.

It’s been said a thousand times but he just seems to lack the specific tools to run a club.

Keeping ‘true Blue’ BK at the club, I suspect, was his way of endearing himself to the fans. He just read the situation so wrong.

The Silva appointment hasn’t worked out. I can’t judge him too harshly on that because I didn’t have too much of an opinion on him when we got him.

Signings have ranged from decent to dreadful.

His weird use of Jim White I particularly dislike.

He just seems to lurch from one mistake to the next.

It’s a strange one. How does one go from a billionaire with the world at his feet, to an almost tragic comedy figure who I cannot help but feel sorry for? Answer: get involved with Everton FC.

Anthony Flack
18 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:31:51
Maybe Watford were bricking it in case the league made us send him back...
Steve Ferns
19 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:33:23
The stadium is everything Phil. Moshiri is not the owner of Everton football club for shits and giggles. He's not here to just give away his wealth. He's here to make money. Sure, he might want some fun and some fame along the way, but he's here to make money. How do you think he makes money without a stadium. It's just not possible.
Mike Keating
20 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:38:08
£4m - I saw somewhere.
They should be paying us!
Just glad we didn’t get fined points.
Brian Wilkinson
21 Posted 22/02/2019 at 23:41:16
Making sure they get their cash before his employment ends if results do not pick up.
Phil Sammon
22 Posted 22/02/2019 at 00:00:44
Steve

If the stadium is ‘everything’, why sanction the huge transfer fees and wages that have come about under his watch?

Of course the stadium is important...my point is that it is not ‘everything’.

A heck of a lot of money has been spent trying to improve onfield performance.

I would also argue that if Moshiri is in this purely to make money then he’s even more foolish than he seems.

But what do I know, Steve. As of about 12 months ago you seem to have installed yourself as oracle of ToffeeWeb.

Tom McEwan
24 Posted 23/02/2019 at 01:40:22
Steve @13, "Everything is about that stadium Jim. Sure, if we get relegated, then it's pointless as we wont need it". A contradiction in terms, if ever I heard one.

In my opinion, "everything" is about making us a successful football team! In other words, the stadium follows the success on the pitch, not the other way around.

As Phil says @28, you installed yourself as the oracle about 12 months ago, but all your posts have a similar theme. Namely, make an assertion and then hope the facts catch up with that assertion in the future.

I am not going to go over old ground regarding our opposite opinions on Silva's 'attributes' and 'success', but I will state that your assertions then, were of the same ilk.

So, when you say the "stadium is everything" you are completely and utterly wrong. In the same way that results under Silva are proving that you were completely and utterly wrong in your 'assertions' regarding his ability to manage our football club.

Stephen @27, SPOT ON!

Darren Murphy
25 Posted 23/02/2019 at 01:41:53
Yeah, it's £4 million, Mike. A bit like Klopp's fine. Nothing to millionaires.

I can't wait to ride my Fireblade to Tuesday's game... needs a good run from London to Wales... I'll save myself the hassle and freeze my nuts off at home.

Darren Murphy
26 Posted 23/02/2019 at 01:52:46
How does Moshiri have fun not giving two fucks about football and this train wreck he's around? Having that joker Blue Bill would be enough to fuck off in itself. We need his mate before any talk of top 7 or 6 consistently comes to reality... I'll leave that up there with Santa is real too.
Albert Perkins
27 Posted 23/02/2019 at 02:01:20
I don't understand why we had to pay them. Marco has proved he starts off well then falls off wherever he is. He was going to fail whether we tapped him up or not.
Jason Leung
28 Posted 23/02/2019 at 02:42:48
Marco will come good. Enough said.
Kieran Kinsella
29 Posted 23/02/2019 at 04:28:58
Press are saying four Premier League teams aside from Chelsea may get transfer bans. I wonder if we are one after tapping up that Welsh kid?
Mark Andersson
30 Posted 23/02/2019 at 04:43:08
Only in football do you get paid a king's ransom to fail at your job.

Weird how Everton players not playing or ex-blues become better in the minds of some on here.

Steve Ferns, I had every finger crossed that your words would come true about Silva's appointment but sadly he has failed to date. Even more sad is I can't see him turning things around.

Mr Moneybags has also proved he is a failure when it comes to running Everton.

He should have stuck with Fat Sam if all he wanted was to stay mid-table till the new stadium was built.

Steve Solomon
31 Posted 23/02/2019 at 06:01:17
We should have given him back.

Look how much better off they are without him, they're up to 7th now on 40 pts. Exactly where we should be. With our rejects. And we have their "best" player.

In South Africa, we have a saying "eish!" (aish), which basically is a gasp of exasperation. Oh well this what being a toffee is all about these days.

Let me introduce to my local SA Premier League team, Cape Town City (also sponsored by SportPesa). Coached by Benni McCarthy. Fun to watch and challenges for cups and in the top 4 in the league.

Thomas Lennon
32 Posted 23/02/2019 at 07:55:32
But, but, but... surely a new stadium is only worth £6 million more per game?

Sorry, I had a flashback to 2009 just then.

Lots of silence from all those local business owners too.

Was it really all about aesthetics, something to be proud of? Nn other words, all about the opposition, because I don't see this 50,000 stadium as a lot different to the last in terms of profits.

If this stadium is so vital for our future then so was the last. It will add 50% to matchday income, cost us more in borrowed money and add half a billion to our saleable assets. At the end of the day, that makes us far more attractive to those who would like to make money out of the bottomless pit of cash called the Premier League.

As long as we aren't relegated, that remains true. Those are the people we need in order to become a club that wins things once more. Signing a new manager and half a dozen players and then getting all excited that we have magically transformed to match clubs who have spent a decade or more on the same path and have spent billions is daft. We have taken the first baby steps in a marathon.

Danny Baily
33 Posted 23/02/2019 at 08:12:56
Silva has been an expensive mistake that many saw coming.

After the Cardiff match we'll be paying Watford compensation for the manager we've sacked and are paying off. Madness.

James Hughes
34 Posted 23/02/2019 at 08:51:36
Have they agreed to take him back as part of the deal?
Jimmy Hogan
35 Posted 23/02/2019 at 08:59:59
Having see Watford climb to 7th in the table last night, after Deulofeu's hat-trick, you can't help feeling that they are better at picking managers than we are.
Ken Kneale
36 Posted 23/02/2019 at 09:06:23
We should have apologised and let Watford have him back.
Stewart Lowe
37 Posted 23/02/2019 at 09:11:29
The thing that really really riles me are the media writers that keep pressing with the, "Silva should not be sacked because Everton need stability and he needs to mould the team into a Silva team". If Silva had a history of creating great teams, I would go for that, but he hasn't. So what an utterly flawed suggestion that is.

So this means that because we have been on a 5-year merry-go-round with poor, poor managers, we should stick by Silva, no matter how bad he is??? Really??? So should we have done the same with Koeman and Allardyce???

If we hadn't chanced on potential, who haven't won a decent trophy between them, we wouldn't be stood stagnating. So the media think we should give Silva lots of time to stamp his authority, but what if he was never good enough to take us forward, no matter how long we give him, what would we have achieved by doing this???

Another huge flaw in giving him time to stabilise the club is that, when someone does eventually take over from a now stabilised club in a year or two, what is one of the first things he will want to do??? He is going to want to dismantle a settled squad to then bring in his own players, in a similar way to when Martinez came in after Moyes. And then so the cycle continues.

Regardless of what the media think we should do, we have only two options available to us:

1) Go big and hire someone who has win the lot and pay them generously to take us into the new stadium era;
2) Keep hiring potential on 1- or 2-year rolling contracts, with the aim of proving themselves at the highest level... and hope that, in the next two to three managers with potential, we find another Pochetinho.

Brian Harrison
38 Posted 23/02/2019 at 10:09:57
Well, who would have thought, 4 years into his ownership of Everton, and we are a basket case of a club?

He has sacked 3 managers costing £26 million in redundancy payments, he now has to pay Watford £4 million for a manager they sacked, and was willing to pay £15 million to sign him had Watford agreed.

Should he sack Silva at the end of the season, that will cost another £10 million, which will make a grand total of £40 million. So, for all the great optimism we all had when Moshiri joined, promising to restore us back to winning trophies, we seem further away than ever, having spent a fortune on players and redundancy packages.

Yes we still have a new stadium to look forward to... but, for those who think that's the panacea for all our problems, think again.

Mike Allison
39 Posted 23/02/2019 at 10:28:25
Stewart, I think you've lost a sense of proportion about how bad Silva is. The team is mediocre, inconsistent and shorn of confidence and belief. They're not outright ‘bad'.

We're still in the top half of the table (just about) and very much in the running for European qualification if we were to turn things around and finish the season strongly. You describe it as a ‘merry-go-round of poor, poor managers', well there are two key responses to that phrase.

First of all, you seem to want to stay on that merry-go-round, meaning we can't move forwards. Secondly, you seem to believe in a fairly simplistic division of managers by ability, as if they're either poor, good, mediocre or whatever and that's all there is to it. I hope it's obvious that that isn't the case.

The same manager can do brilliantly in one job but fail in another. The same manager can be brilliant at first but then fade badly. The same manager can look hopeless at first but then get things together and look brilliant later on. Football is constantly full of examples like this, at least three of which are happening this season in the Premier League.

One thing that football has shown time and time again is that if a manager and squad can stay together, get used to each other and build continuity and stability, then in the long term they always do better than the team that chops and changes.

Too many Evertonians are letting frustration, impatience and an impetuous desire for everything to be sorted right now get in the way of what is in the long term interests of the club. This squad needs to know that the manager is not going to be scapegoated for their performances, they need to feel pride and a sense of identity with Everton as a club and they need to feel personally responsible for the results and achievements of the team. This is only going to be achieved by taking away the possibility of some magical change coming along to ‘fix everything', which isn't going to happen, yet seems to be what many fans are holding out for.

The players also need to know they have the support of thousands of match-going Evertonians and the confidence that every little mistake won't be met by groans, or a difficult and frustrating first half by boos.

So yes, stability, continuity and the players having a clear and developed identity as a group so that they are taking personal responsibility for the results is the only thing we haven't really tried yet. That's the something different we need to go for. At this point, chopping and changing would just be more of the same.

Simon Hermansen
40 Posted 23/02/2019 at 10:30:22
Obviously Watford realised they'd soon owe us compensation, so decided to settle while they can still get something out of it!
Ken Kneale
41 Posted 23/02/2019 at 10:37:53
Mike. What part of 11 defeats is not mediocre?

How are we impatient when we have waited so long on false promises?

How are we not supporting when the ground is full for home games and our away section are second to none in their support?

They say a fool does the same things time and time again and wonders why the outcome does not differ. That sums up the malaise with Silva and other recent managers and the hierarchy are a combination of vanity project, clueless, or both on their handling of this club for decades.

Let's get real and call this how it is: Unless results take an amazing turnabout, we are totally reliant on teams below us not winning to hold station in the Premier League.

Mike Kehoe
42 Posted 23/02/2019 at 11:06:56
The fact that Silva cannot organise an effective defence is nothing to do with recruitment. It is this inability that speaks loudest to me, along with being unable to influence games in any meaningful manner at half time or with substitutions. His rigidity in set up makes us one dimensional, predictable and easy to play against: watch how Cardiff will be organised in defence and exploit our weaknesses at set pieces.

If Steve Ferns has installed himself as the official ToffeeWeb oracle and fountain of all Everton knowledge, I would like to appoint myself as Rachel Riley's sexual plaything. Believe me, this is a more likely outcome than Moshiri landing Simeone or Ancelloti.

Mike Allison
43 Posted 23/02/2019 at 11:07:36
Ken, I said we're mediocre, it's in line 3.

You're impatient because you've waited so long. Silva is carrying the weight of the failings of Martinez and Koeman. He'll be better off if he doesn't have to.

As I said in my post (I'm wondering if you read it properly), the ‘not supporting' is in the groans and boos at home games. Simply turning up and feeling entitled to be entertained is not supporting.

They say a fool does the same things time and time again and wonders why the outcome doesn't differ. In our case, sacking the manager again and starting from scratch again would be to do the same thing again.

Giving time to build stability and continuity with the same manager and players would be the something different. I think that point is fairly clear in the last paragraph of my post, which again makes me wonder if you read it properly.

Your reaction seems to be a fairly good example of how people's impatience and frustration is blinding their reason. You come across just angry and frankly, a bit daft when I'm sure you would normally be able to do better.

Jim Bennings
44 Posted 23/02/2019 at 11:10:59
Whatever way you look at it the board has a massive decision to make this summer. In all likelihood, Silva will still be here in May unless we go on a catastrophic run of defeats.

The summer period, however, brings about a hugely important time of big decision making from our board because the choices made in May, June and July will ultimately shape the remainder of this year going into the latter half of 2019.

If we decide do to keep Silva for the start of next season and we have another poor run of results in the first 10-15 fixtures then what?

I can understand Moshiri will be loathe to sack him after the headhunting involved in getting the Portuguese here but at some point you know Moshiri will need to act if results don't improve greatly and it's always the manager the axe falls upon.

Surely, though, we need to start vetting the players more that we bring to the club from now on? The support don't want appeasing with seeing the club lavishly splash stupid money on more high risk foreign import .

Tony Everan
45 Posted 23/02/2019 at 11:17:09
We shouldn't be thinking we need to keep a manager just because we don't want to pay him off. Sometimes it is actually profitable to do so. Also, far better than doing it in May than in November .

Rather than using hope or expectation, I want to use the facts on the ground on whether Marco Silva stays.

If he can show he is turning it around and we are heading back on an upward trajectory between now and the end of the season, all good.

I want him to do that, and will support him and the team. I am not looking for Champions League form, just confidence we are on the right path with him.

But if we are still in a ''Groundhog Day'' state of terrible football that we have recently witnessed come May, on what grounds should anyone be optimistic that things will change next season?

Derek Knox
46 Posted 23/02/2019 at 11:25:48
Good post, Ken. I have supported Everton for well over 50 years, approaching 60 actually, and like Viv Nicholson winning the pools, sudden wealth has been more of a downfall than a welcome bonus. Or to be more precise the way that Golden Egg has been managed.

I too am fed up with false promises, and 'being patient' it'll be alright soon, when the Moon turns Blue, and there will be World peace, that Utopian fantasy will never come true sadly, because the greedy get richer from investment in War.

The other noticeable facet to all this is, since the injection of mismanaged funds, our football has actually become worse... but, like you say, the fans still turn up home and away to pledge what is sadly becoming a misplaced and undeserved loyalty.

The glaring factor in all this is that Moshiri is an Accountant, so why oh why, is he so reluctant to make sound financial decisions, which are replaced by false economies? I can understand him not being football savvy, but common sense should surely prevail, even if he is being ill-advised.

Why wasn't Silva because of his unimpressive track record offered a deal similar to Allardyce, 18 months or even 1 year; do well and we will re-negotiate?

Jason Broome
47 Posted 23/02/2019 at 11:31:35
Jimmy Hogan @ 35

You're right. It's also pathetic that if we tried to buy Deulofeu from Watford now they would probably quote us £45 Million. He's having a great season and is playing better than Richarlson.

What the fuck is going on at Goodison!?

Stewart Lowe
48 Posted 23/02/2019 at 11:45:31
I wish I could add a lot more to this message in response to Mike's response to my post, as I think your wrong in so many ways, but I can't because I'm on my way to Birmingham for the day.

But, no manager should be kept at a club because they don't want to pay the costs of sacking him. The buck stops with the board for paying ridiculous money for chancers and pretenders, which seem to be two a penny.

We took Martinez because he won a cup but got relegated.
We took Koeman because of his name and not because of his ability.
We took Allardyce because we had to.
We took Silva because he promised offensive attacking football, and because that's what they play across the park, we felt we needed something the same, regardless of his Martinez-esque style of open defence.

We need a manager that at least has a plan that can be changed to combat any style of opposition. Good managers can take their model anywhere and make it work. Then the rest wing it.

A restaurant is only as good as its chef. A football club is only as good as the manager, so it's imperative we get that one single position right.

Brian Harrison
49 Posted 23/02/2019 at 11:47:27
I read this morning that, as well as Chelsea, there are three other teams under investigation and likely to suffer the same ban. Seeing we have just been banned from signing any youngsters, I would imagine we are one of the clubs under investigation.

Hopefully that won't be the case but, if it is, then I couldn't see us sacking Silva as the chances of getting a new manager to work under those conditions would be very difficult.

Ken Kneale
50 Posted 23/02/2019 at 12:22:39
Mike – sadly your comments seem a good example of how people's blindness to the obvious is blinding their reason.

I can assure you I am not angry – I concede to being disillusioned with and disappointed by that those charged with restoring our club to where it ought to be. On facts alone, they are incompetent, in love with their own vanity for the role they occupy but fulfilling to a woefully low standard.

I remind you of John Moores comments – "Everton expects success. We have a good crowd, a very loyal crowd, but they pay their money and they expect to see Everton do well. If we don't do well they expect something to be done about it".

I think that shows a chairman and owner in touch with the fans and his role. I suppose your suggestion the late Mr Moores comes across angry and frankly, a bit daft – as you suggest I, and others of my view, are in your post.

By that, I suppose you say Mr Moores was wrong to sack Carey, Bingham and Lee – all of whom could have said, with more time, they were nearly there. Your post implies Silva will turn into Howard Kendall Mk I. I have seen enough already to say Silva is certainly no Howard Kendall.

Time to call a Taxi for the man and a few others inside Goodison Park.

John G Davies
51 Posted 23/02/2019 at 12:27:05
"On facts alone, they are incompetent, in love with their own vanity."

Can you expand on that comment, please, Ken.

Michael Lynch
52 Posted 23/02/2019 at 12:27:18
Hilarious - if you're not an Everton fan of course. They con £4m out of us on the basis that their form was compromised by our attention in Silva, when this season has proved beyond any doubt that their form was compromised by him being a truly dreadful manager.

Raymond Fox
53 Posted 23/02/2019 at 12:34:47
Mike 39 and 43 good common sense posts.

The recurring theme throughout our last 4 or 5 managers and beyond is we sell our very best players to the usual top six clubs on top of being unable to attract players of sufficient quality to challenge them.

I'm neither for or against Silva, there are probably better managers out there but getting them to come to the club is a different matter.

It's the same with players of the highest class, it's obvious we would do better if we could attract them but I doubt if it's through lack of trying.

Until we can overcome these obstacles, we will stay in the same rut.

Paul Tran
54 Posted 23/02/2019 at 12:44:22
Considering Moshiri was happy to pay £15m for Silva, you could argue that £4m is a good deal, especially if, as I suspect, he thinks Watford have a good case for us tapping up Silva in the first place.

Now, whether we think it's a good deal may be another matter!

John G Davies
55 Posted 23/02/2019 at 12:46:13
We are £11 million up on the deal, Paul.

Good business!

Paul O'Neill
56 Posted 23/02/2019 at 12:58:06
I suspect the Hornets simply thought we’d suffered our penance. Magnanimous of them really!
Darren Hind
57 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:09:02
He really needs to make this mini-break count. I would not be surprised to see Rhino sitting in the dugout against Liverpool if we get a negative result it South Wales.

Bridget for the biggy today.

John G Davies
58 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:15:59
Hope Bridget enjoys it, Darren.
Phil Sammon
59 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:17:23
Win or lose, I can’t see Silva being sacked this week. I have no confidence in the bloke but it doesn’t seem like a good time.

Would it be within the scope of Brands to demand a change in defensive organisation?

Ken Kneale
60 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:22:30
At length John but for brevity complete mismanagement of the club by Kenwright and his cronies and when he does find his millionaire, as Derek @46 points out, complete mismanagement of funds on a massive scale paying the wrong people terrific money to do a bad job on and off the pitch.

All accompanied by the teary chorus of 'Boy Pen Bill' whenever a camera or media outlet is near, and ridiculous pronouncements at the AGMs like people are jealous of our 'Fab Four'. What utter self-deluding tosh which embarrasses and diminishes our club.

Mike Allison
61 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:39:41
Let's put it this way Ken:

We're both passionate about Everton being successful and we both want the same thing.

We both agree that the current side (or perhaps the current form of the side) is not good enough. Something needs to change, and the team needs to get better.

Here's how I characterise our disagreement: you think the cause of the problem is the manager, and therefore if we change the manager, we have a better chance of solving the problem. Is that a fair assessment of your position?

I want you to try to understand where I'm coming from, as it bears no relation to John Moores or any previous managers who were sacked. I believe our problem is bigger than the current manager. I believe our problem is caused by around 5 years of constant flux and transition, during which a number of bad decisions have been made. I don't blame Marco Silva for any of those decisions and therefore I don't see our current predicament as his fault. That's why I say he's carrying the weight of Martinez's and Koeman's failings (we might add Moshiri's and Steve Walsh's to that list as well).

I think that the 5 years of muddled thinking and instability can't be undone simply by appointing a 'better' manager (for 'better' I would simply read 'different'). I think that those 5 years get undone by patience, stability, continuity and a sense of personal responsibility from the players and manager about how the team performs.

Constant chopping and changing provides an excuse not to take responsibility, players can tell themselves "it's the manager, we need a new one" or "we're not used to his methods yet", whilst managers can tell themselves "I need to sign my own players". Both can tell themselves "we're in transition, it'll take time". Well if they have the time, then those excuses disappear, they'll expect themselves to be doing better and won't be able to blame anyone else.

So, to summarise, Ken, Stewart and apparently most of the posters in the negative echo chamber that is ToffeeWeb think the manager is the problem, so it is the manager who needs to change. I believe that instability, lack of continuity, and the ability to avoid responsibility are the problem and therefore that is what needs to change. Neither of us is really advocating doing the same thing and expecting a different result, we're just disagreeing about what needs to change.

Paul Tran
62 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:50:40
With you regarding Bridget today, Darren. Thats my next best bet, behind Glen Rocco.

John G, you might laugh at the £11m profit, it might pay for Silva's compo and the fee for the next guy!

Alan J Thompson
63 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:53:08
Bugger it, sue them under the Trade Descriptions Act or send him back as unfit for purpose.
John G Davies
64 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:57:11
I looked at it as paying Allardyce's pay-off and part of Koeman's, Paul. Whichever way you look at it, he is £11M up on the deal.
Paul Tran
65 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:58:30
That's why I use an accountant, John!
John G Davies
66 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:58:45
Ken @60,

I'm with you all the way there, brother.

Daniel Bentley
67 Posted 23/02/2019 at 13:59:49
This club is great — all we do is put bums on their feet!
Andrew Grey
68 Posted 23/02/2019 at 14:04:40
What about Javi Gracia? He's doing well at Watford! ;)
Tom Bowers
69 Posted 23/02/2019 at 14:12:32
Is anybody else out there a soccer coach or has been one? It's a thankless task. When you're winning, you're great... and when you're not, you're useless. Silva and many others need the players to perform when faith is put in them as part of a starting eleven.

Yes, I agree, strategy and selection can let a coach down and, in Everton's case this season, it's a combination of all things.

Even people like Pocchetino can get it all wrong, like the Burnley goal today – nobody on either goalpost from the corner kick. How many times have I seen that result in a goal conceded this season?

Ken Kneale
70 Posted 23/02/2019 at 14:25:57
Mike

I do agree, Silva is not the sole problem but sadly he is not part of the solution. Failure at all previous clubs and his continued inability to sustain any passion, defensive shape or level of form are all part of his CV – we are just the latest club to suffer.

Ian Horan
71 Posted 23/02/2019 at 14:26:56
Let's strip the emotion out: only Boys Pen Bill wanted Rooney back – not Moshiri, not Koeman. It should have been £95M for Lukaku. We would've then also only had Sigurdsson and Klaassen for the No 10 role, Rooney's salary would then have covered a decent centre-forward.

Moshiri has listened to Kenwright for too long. Now we have Brands, the signings will be more aligned to team structure – no frivolous 'happy ever afters'.

The compensation of £4M is better than a points deduction. Allardyce was Moshiri's insurance policy. You can't blame him for that, given his investment.

Silva is safe until the season ends, his contract is a basic £3M with the rest performance-related. Let's have patience and see the removal of deadwood this summer.

Derek Knox
72 Posted 23/02/2019 at 14:27:58
Tom, watching the Burnley game as well, agree it is human to err, but as many have pointed out numerous times, a mistake is reluctantly acceptable, and to a degree forgiven, but to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again has got everyone's backs up, and there is little sign of that changing.

We all love Everton, mate, on that I think we can agree... but to witness what is happening to our beloved Club falls little short of being criminal in all departments.

Ken Kneale
73 Posted 23/02/2019 at 14:59:39
Derek

You final paragraph captures all our pain. Well done

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

74 Posted 23/02/2019 at 15:52:17
Mike Allison @ various.

You accuse the likes of Stewart and Ken in this thread of ‘losing a sense of proportion' and ‘coming across just angry and frankly, a bit daft'. I rather think they make reasonable and rationale points.

By contrast, the tone of your posts implies you are the sole oracle of the reasonable and rationale ‘in the negative echo chamber that is ToffeeWeb'.

Let's expand on the reason and rationale you present.

The crux of your argument is that we should get off the merry go round of constantly changing managers. That it is hard to predict if a manager who was good at another club will perform to the same level if appointed at Everton. The latter is a fair point, be it managers or players.

It is also reasonable to state as you do that if a manager and squad can stay together, then in the long term they MAY do better (not always, as you state).

However, your proposed model of management recruitment is not the only successful one, is it Mike?

Monied Chelsea and City have done very well by constantly washing and rinsing their managers, haven't they?

But so have other clubs who have nowhere near the same financial clout as those two. And a very good example of that model is an extremely pertinent one to this thread and the subject:

Watford.

The Pozzo family took control of Watford in July 2012 with a wealth of club ownership behind them, including Udinese in Italy's Serie A and Granada in Spain. Watford were languishing in the Championship at the time, but even though Sean Dyche had led them to 11th place – their highest finish in 5 years – he was dismissed and Gianfranco Zola appointed in his stead.

Including the manager they inherited, the Pozzo's have had no fewer than TEN different managers in the less-than 7 years since they took over the club. They have been figures of ridicule by many pundits for their constant changing of managers, but under manager #6, within 3 years of taking over the club, they won promotion back to the Premier League.

In the now 3½ seasons they have played in the Premier League since their promotion, they have had a further 4 managers. Their finishing positions have been 13th, 17th and 14th (the season they started with Silva and finished with Garcia).

They are currently sitting a very comfortable 7th as well as having a very favourable draw in the quarterfinals of the FA Cup.

Now according to your reason and rationale, Mike, the very evident progress Watford has made in less than 7 years with 10 different managers is NOT the way to go.

The Watford example – and I find it deliciously ironic that it is Watford I can reference to counter some of your points – rather undermines your position. Because the ‘chopping and changing' you decry has clearly paid dividends for them.

You use the tired old line about ‘a fool does the same things time and time again and wonders why the outcome doesn't differ'.

Maybe, just maybe, the ‘same old thing' the club is repeating and getting wrong is taking a punt on appointing ‘middle-of-the-road' managers on 3-5 year contracts, rather than – as Stewart very reasonably and rationally suggests:

1) Go big and hire someone who has won the lot and pay them generously to take us into the new stadium era.

2) Keep hiring potential on 1- or 2-year rolling contracts, with the aim of proving themselves at the highest level and hope in the next two to three managers with potential that we find another Pochetinho.

Mike Allison
75 Posted 23/02/2019 at 16:54:31
Jay I didn’t initiate that line, I picked it out of Stewart’s post. It seems to be used as a reason to sack Silva and appoint someone else. I was pointing out that it didn’t necessarily hold.

Last year it was Burnley, this year it’s Watford, next year it’ll probably be someone else. There’s always going to be someone having a good season we can wish we were like. 7th is the pinnacle for those clubs, they’ll lose their good managers and sell their best players. I thought we were supposed to be aiming higher than that.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

76 Posted 23/02/2019 at 17:10:58
Mike @ 75.

I genuinely have no comprehension of what you are trying to say in this post in relation to, or in response to, your earlier posts I referenced.

Stewart Lowe
77 Posted 23/02/2019 at 17:29:56
I have supported Everton since 1982 and I'm 45 years old. Until Martinez took over at Everton, I had never urged an opposition to beat us, but I felt compelled to do this in response to how serious the situation was at that time. It was so bad that I was cheering other teams to beat us in order to bring about the inevitable end, as it seemed to drag on and on, and I hated myself for doing that.

So sure am I that Silva is nothing more than another Martinez, I'm slowly and sadly going the same way, believing that the quicker this pain ends, the sooner we can get someone better qualified to take us forward.

Ken Kneale
78 Posted 23/02/2019 at 17:37:08
Mike. I don't understand your reply to Jay and others. It does not dovetail in any way to your previous posts other than being equally nonsensical.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

79 Posted 23/02/2019 at 17:38:34
Stewart @ 77, as already posted, I can agree on the two options you propose with regard to manager recruitment, but cheering on the opposition to win as a means to accelerate the dismissal of the sitting manager...?

That's just perverse.

Stewart Lowe
80 Posted 23/02/2019 at 17:46:45
You're absolutely right, Jay, it is perverse and I've never done that in decades of watching Everton. But Martinez's 2nd season up to him biting the bullet was like watching a deer struggle after being shot, you just want the end to come.
Mal van Schaick
81 Posted 23/02/2019 at 17:56:21
Watford should give Everton £4 million to keep him.

Things can only get better, as the song goes!

Bill Watson
82 Posted 23/02/2019 at 18:25:58
Stewart #77,

I understand the feeling. When Everton were losing a cup game 3-0, at Middlesborough, I was hoping they'd score more to finally hasten Walter Smith's end.

As it happened 3-0 sufficed!

Shane Corcoran
83 Posted 23/02/2019 at 18:36:26
I think a transfer ban might work out relatively well.
Jim Bennings
84 Posted 23/02/2019 at 19:00:28
You can't really compare Martinez's tenure here with any of the managers we have had under Moshiri.

Martinez had three seasons here, one 5th place finish with a record points return of 72 and two Cup Semi-Finals WITHOUT spending endless millions that Koeman, Allardyce and Silva have.

Compared to Everton right now, Martinez's Everton sides were at least worth watching going forward.

Denis Richardson
85 Posted 23/02/2019 at 19:04:56
Did we agree to let them have him back?
Stewart Lowe
86 Posted 23/02/2019 at 19:21:32
Are you kidding Jim??? The Martinez era was much much worse than the Silva era, because we had to endure so much more rubbish and with every player being "phenomenal" for 2.5 years; hopefully we won't have to wait that long to get shut of Silva.

You have a very short memory, Jim, and it was Moyes's tight defence that helped Martinez out massively. The rest of us realise that, once he started bringing in players of the Alcaraz calibre, it all went tits up. He had two years to recover from that and he couldn't do it in all that time.

Martinez was Mr bullshit. And as for the run in 2 cups???? We were hanging in there every round by the skin of our teeth, and kept getting other teams in the cups that also happened to be going to the wall, Man Utd under Moyes was one, and we couldn't even beat them.

Jim Bennings
87 Posted 23/02/2019 at 19:41:07
Stewart

In the Martinez era we

1) Did the double over Manchester United (how many Everton managers achieve that?)

2) Record points total.

3) Beat Arsenal 3-0 (our biggest win over the Gunners since the 80’s)

4) He signed Lukaku, Barry, McCarthy and Deulofeu (name me better players signed in the last 12 months)

5) In 2015 we beat Manchester United 3-0 (our biggest win over United since the 80’s)

6) In 2015/16 we scored three times away from home against Chelsea, Southampton, Stoke, West Brom and Aston Villa.

So the football is better now eh Stewart?

We have won three, THREE football matches since the end of November.

We have been dumped out of the FA Cup at Millwall, a joke of a Championship team.

We have scored just FIVE goals in 2019 and it’s March on Friday!

We have played Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City (twice) Manchester United, Arsenal and Tottenham and taken one solitary point from those seven matches.

All of this despite spending how many million pound again last summer???

Sure, this is miles better than the Martinez era.

Joe McMahon
88 Posted 23/02/2019 at 20:25:08
Jim B @87, I agree with many points you make, but we have to remember doing the double over Man Utd was made easier by the fact David Moyes was their manager!
Denis Richardson
89 Posted 23/02/2019 at 21:01:02
Jim 87,

Sorry but have to agree with Stewart in that you’re clutching at straws a bit. From memory the last 18 months of Matinez’ ‘reign’ were awful. We spent most of the time trying to break the record for most passes along the half way line.

Can’t remember what was worse, the actual match or his post match ramblings about moments and phenomenal players.

Both Martinez and Silva are similar. Both young managers who think they’ve somehow reinvented the game and a new way to play but end of they day are just bullshit merchants.

I still keep and eye on Newcastle as I’m still waiting for Atsu to explode

Trevor Peers
91 Posted 23/02/2019 at 21:22:57
Our lack of identity is the main problem Silva has created, the players he has signed just don't fit into his 'system' or way of playing.

The players never seem comfortable with the way the team is set up and his inflexibility just adds to the frustration and confusion; the result is we lack cohesion as a team and that makes us very predictable and easy pickings, even against the poorest teams.

David Pearl
93 Posted 23/02/2019 at 21:28:10
I don't think you can compare Martinez to Silva at all. Silva has spent a fortune over Martinez... and the football isn't anywhere near as good. Moyes left something to build on. So did Martinez... however we then ripped up any signs of progress to go in a complete different direction.

If we kept Martinez or at least that style, we had something to specifically add to. As it is, we have bought players in for the sake of it and not much better than what we had. This still is nothing compared to how shit we became under Koeman.

Cardiff let in 5 today, let's see how they do against us. Surely Silva will be gone if he loses his next two games.

Tony Abrahams
94 Posted 23/02/2019 at 21:31:14
Just been reading about how Silva, is still very respected in Portugal, with a quote that he also cleans the house before he goes. (Lets hope so, is what loads will be saying)

Don’t know if he will last, I hope he does, but to blame him for a lack of identity which we have had since Koeman, came through the door, is just trying to kick a man when he his down, especially because he inherited a really, really, really poor squad of players.

Stephen Meighan
95 Posted 23/02/2019 at 21:31:55
Jim Bennings @87 banging the Drum for Bobby Brown shoes behave yourself I remember you constantly slagging him off. Big deal he had some good results in his first season but bottled it towards the end of it when he fucked up when we should've got Champions League football. Done Jack shit the next couple when he got found out.

Now I'm not saying Silva is any better but he's no worse than the last 2 seasons of Bobby's reign. Oh by the way haven't heard you slag Calvert-Lewin off for a couple of weeks... oh sorry, we haven't played.

Trevor Peers
96 Posted 23/02/2019 at 21:43:41
Silva is getting paid a fortune Tony FFS. I'm sure he can handle the criticism, it's our supporters who have my sympathy for having to watch the dross he serves up week after week after week.
Jerome Shields
97 Posted 23/02/2019 at 21:51:58
Darren #57,

Don't hold your breath, if previous mini-breaks are anything to go by. It's Everton's annual Spring mid-term break.

Tony Abrahams
98 Posted 23/02/2019 at 22:03:08
The football has been poor Trevor, and the manager is getting paid a fortune, but like you say, I hope he can take the criticism “he does deserve,” and he can also give us back our identity, which has been missing for a few years now.

I personally think it’s been missing since Walter Smith became our Manager, because only Moyes and Kenwright, really benefitted from plucky little Everton, becoming best of the rest, even if loads of Evertonians, still seem to yearn for those distinctly average days.

Derek Knox
99 Posted 23/02/2019 at 22:13:35
Tony @94, that explains a lot about Silva, wtf. is he doing cleaning the house, when the money he is on he could at least employ a cleaner, though he is not renowned to favour a sweeper.

Time for him to put his feather duster to one side and show us he is a FARCE to be reckoned with. :-)

PS Note to editorial team, that is not a typo.

John G Davies
100 Posted 23/02/2019 at 22:13:53
He's still got my backing.

Another transfer window, a few out and a few in will make us more his team. I will judge him then.

Sam Hoare
101 Posted 23/02/2019 at 22:29:49
I think its pretty simple. If we are as bad as we have been for the last two months over the next two months then he will and should be sacked. Any good manager can have bad a rut. But any great manager will find a way out.

If we improve over the next few months then I’d like to give him more time.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

102 Posted 23/02/2019 at 22:37:45
Never have, and never will, understand the phrase (many variations available) about 'judging a manager once he has assembled his team'.

It's the manager's team the second the ink is dry on his contract. Surely it befalls to him to get a tune out of what is immediately, progressively and ultimately at his disposal?

That's why they get paid the big bucks.

I'm all for giving a manager a reasonable passage of time as long as progress is in evidence. That is not one and the same thing as 'judging a manager once he has assembled his team'.

Tony Abrahams
103 Posted 23/02/2019 at 22:42:54
I personally think he should use a sweeper Derek, but at least he’s played five across the midfield, and made us a bit harder to play against for the last two games.

Still got us no points, we all know it’s not good enough, but I think it’s a farce that people are slagging the manager, when we have got two very important games in the next eight days, and even “anyone or everyone” who doesn’t think Silva, is good enough, should still try and get behind the team, especially against the other crowd, where we need a very strong and vocal crowd.

I know your not stupid Derek, but you only have to look at the players on loan, to see the state that Everton were/are in, but I also hope he swaps that feather duster for a nuckle duster, and his team begins to show a lot more fight.

Brian Hennessy
104 Posted 23/02/2019 at 22:45:52
I'm predicting 6 points for us over the next two games, taking us to a lofty total of 39 points while City start to pull away on the back of 2 defeats in a row for Klopp – starting at Man Utd tomorrow.

These pills are working a treat.

Derek Knox
105 Posted 23/02/2019 at 22:53:23
Jay @102, bravo Sir, I am of the same belief, that this business of building a Manager's own team, should not be from the outset when he hasn't proved anything.

I can accept however after a level of success has been achieved, it is almost an expected progression to build and improve/replace ageing players, or even better players gradually. The Club would be Bankrupt quicker than ever if they were to allow every Manager the facility of doing so.

Hypothetically, the manager resigns or is sacked, his replacement wants the funding to build HIS team, it is neither practical or sustainable.

Len Hawkins
106 Posted 23/02/2019 at 23:01:33
My brother started his joinery career in 1954 aged 15 he looked after his tools cleaned and sharpened plane blades/saw teeth regularly, he also kept his chisels razor sharp and pre phillips screwdrivers he kept the blades ground to fit neatly in the slot.

If his tools were passed on to his successor they were ready to go, is this not the same with football management a bloke assembles a load of old tat in his tool bag then passes them on to the next manager who throws some out and buys even worse tat. Two managers later doing the same the manager coming in finds a set of tools not good enough to build a dog kennel when the fans expect a palace or a cathedral.

Simplistic I know but could anyone walk into this mess and get them looking like an improvement other than Paul McKenna until someone in the crowd clicks his fingers.

Tony Hill
107 Posted 23/02/2019 at 23:01:48
The last 15 months of Martinez and the incoherence of Koeman/Walsh were deadly for us.

Ian @71 is correct, though, that the real villain is the idiot Kenwright who stupidly and arrogantly indulged Martinez, and who was telling us all only last year at some half-arsed Everton panto how he had no regrets about taking back Rooney and how Klaassen and Sandro would still be playing for us this season because, it was implied, he had bought them and they were serious players if only we all looked hard enough to spot their talent. Make no mistake Kenwright has kept his power and has played a central role in recruitment until, perhaps and please God, the arrival of Brands.

This man has done such damage; he is a continuing proof of the lethal effects of sentimentality and has marked the club in his image, he has placed mediocrities in positions of high influence, and has combined all of that with a keen interest in the accrual of large amounts of cash to his benefit. Bank notes stained with tears retain their value.

Tony Abrahams
108 Posted 23/02/2019 at 23:12:18
Martinez, £10 million payoff, Allardyce £6 million. Koeman, is taking the piss, getting his small time wage off Holland, so it doesn’t stop him getting big bucks off Everton, who have now just had to give Watford another £4 million for Silva, and that’s before the club have bought a player.

To get rid of another manager now, when the club needs to get at least another ten players off the books, just doesn’t make any sense to me, unless our results don’t improve of course?

Neil Copeland
109 Posted 23/02/2019 at 23:19:22
So much for Watford taking the moral high ground then, what a load of bollocks that was. Looks like they have missed out on £11m as a result although time will tell who the real losers are I suppose.

Sam #101, that sounds about right to me.

I am really hoping that Silva has absolutely maximised the extended break and we do a number on Cardiff then get some sort of result in the derby.

As always I live in hope and got my ticket for Cardiff (lofty heights of 5 match credits and a good chance of another away to the barcodes), looking forward to the game.

Martin Kulkarni
110 Posted 23/02/2019 at 23:26:10
Following on from David Pearl #93 re. Seeing how we do against Cardiff next week. Anyone take much notice of the football scores today? Anyone getting really, really worried yet?

I think it was Jay Wood, apologies Jay if I'm mistaken, who said along the lines of that on the law of averages, it is extremely unlikely that all of the teams from Cardiff upwards will finish above us.

Consider those teams who are winning at the moment. Burnley won away recently. Now they're beating the third best team at home. Newcastle are doing well, and are suddenly winning homes games now. Leicester, Palace, West Ham will finish above us, they are quite simply better teams than us. Southampton? Will we finish above them?

Then consider how we have been, and are doing. On form the worst team in the Premier League bar Huddersfield. Five of top six left to play. West Ham and Palace away. The penultimate game, Burnley at home may well be a last chance saloon must win game with no guarantee it will even be enough with Spurs away our last game. .

I read a lot of posts which are mostly coming from the angle of the assumption that we will still be in the Premier League.

Is it just me who is worrying unnecessarily? Is it beyond the realms of possibility that we will do a Wimbledon, or a Norwich? Worryingly, I think not.

My bad feelings about how this is playing out increase by the day, especially with days like today.

And then we get the grim news that we are likely one of the teams who will be subject to a transfer ban! Even if we survive this season, with a transfer ban, we will be odds on to be relegated next season!

I'm not religious nor am spiritually inclined, but, with the Scum likely to win the Premier League, it just seems to me that everything is coming into alignment, and that this coming year will define our very existence.

Danny Baily
111 Posted 23/02/2019 at 23:38:22
Martin @110, we are in a relegation battle. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't looked at the fixture list.

We should sack or sideline Silva ahead of the Cardiff match. No point waiting to lose to swing the axe.

Martin Kulkarni
112 Posted 23/02/2019 at 23:51:22
Danny @111.

I'm not sure if a lot of people are just in denial around the possibility, or genuinely believe we can get enough points to stay up. I am inclined to use the word 'survive' for myself, not 'stay up', as most people seem to be stating it.

I've had a quick look at points won to finish one place above the relegation places since three points for a win. Not many seasons has that team only required between 33 - 36 or so points. A lot of the years it suggests nearer 39 or more points. Again, with this hopeless, hapless bunch, masquerading as a professional football team, where are we going to win six, seven or possibly more points to survive?

Neil Copeland
113 Posted 23/02/2019 at 00:03:39
Martin #112, actually the Premier League stats show that on average 37 points has been sufficient since the number of teams was reduced from 22 to 20 in the 90s.

That doesn't mean to say that we are not still in trouble but looks like 4 more points will be enough. No doubt that the Cardiff game is a must-win for both teams.

Mike Allison
114 Posted 24/02/2019 at 00:04:41
Jay @ 76.

Sorry, I was in a hurry and didn’t want to completely ignore you. The first paragraph doesn’t really matter, the second was an attempt to counter your Watford example. Never mind.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

115 Posted 24/02/2019 at 01:43:38
Martin and Danny, you are making the mistake of looking at Everton's results and remaining fixtures in isolation and believing only Huddersfield's form is worse than ours. Not true. Check out this link:

Link

It shows the form table for a whole range of games: the last 6-8-10-12 matches.

Fulham and Huddersfield occupy 2 of the bottom 3 places in all form tables. They are gone. Totally out of the equation, so we are talking about who is going to occupy the 3rd relegation spot.

Besides Fulham and Huddersfield, on form over the last 6 games, Leicester and Brighton are also below us; in the last 8 games, Leicester are below us whilst Brighton and Everton have equal records; in the last 10 games, Brighton remain below us, Leicester is just one point better off; in the last 12 games, Leicester and Brighton remain below us.

Nothing to be particularly proud about, but it reinforces my point: implausible as it may seem, considering how awful we've been, but two other teams besides Fulham and Huddersfield are in even worse form than we are over the last 12 games: Leicester and Brighton. Ergo, as they remain behind us in the league, THEY are at greater risk of being relegated more than Everton.

You are also making the mistake in believing 39-40 points remains the target to avoid relegation.

As Neil @ 113 references, in recent years the 35-37 point is the benchmark to avoid the drop.

You also fail to take into account that ALL the teams below us have MANY games against each other. Ergo, not all teams can get maximum points from their remaining games. ALL teams will be taking points off each other.

The bookies are not mugs. There remains 8 teams - EIGHT! - at considerably shorter odds than Everton to fill that third relegation spot. Everton remains at 200 to 250-1 to be relegated. A single win would probably see that price double to 500-1.

I repeat, this is nothing to celebrate, but it borders on the hysterical to claim we are in a relegation fight and in a ny danger of going down this season.

However, as I keep saying, all bets against being relegated next season, if we continue this vein of form, are off.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

116 Posted 24/02/2019 at 01:57:48
Mike @ 114.

Bizzare.

So, by your own admission, the first paragraph of your incomprehensible post @ 75 (in relation to what was under discussion) "doesn't really matter", and the second "was an attempt to counter [my] Watford example".

Really? How so? (Given my 'Watford example' countered your claim that changing managers was not helpful). Your 2nd paragraph goes off on a completely different tangent.

I'm wondering, rather as you addressed Ken earlier in the thread, if you read (and comprehended) my post properly.

I'll repeat your own words one more time:

Never mind, eh?

Rob Marsh
117 Posted 24/02/2019 at 05:52:25
Martin #110

I see Cardiff, Fulham, Palace and Burnley as potential draws, the rest of the fixtures? I just can't see where the points are coming from based on the way we're playing.

I think much depends on the Cardiff game, if we lose that one I believe we'll wobble badly.

So far the team has been losing and saying don't worry we'll get it right, lose to them and I don't want to think about the derby and neither will they!

Cardiff is the biggest game of the season, it will set up the run in good or bad. I'll be in a very pessimistic mindset should we lose to a dragon that's spitting out warm air and not fire.

Brian Porter
118 Posted 24/02/2019 at 07:10:50
Didn't we try to lure Silva originally by offering Watford something like £14 million? If so, a final settlement of £4 shows just how much his value has dropped. Even Watford must have realised they weren't going to get much for a manager who has already voted s sitting well below them in the league.
After yesterday's results, we now sit in the bottom half of the table, a massive 3 points ahead of the mighty Burnley who not so long ago we mauled 5-1.
Is this what Moshiri classes as progress? As far as I'm concerned, Silva is taking us in one direction, and that's not the one we expected. He's had plenty of time to change his losing tactics, show he's capable of mixing things up and making us less predictable, but he's so inflexible in his tactics he's showing with every game that he's incapable or unwilling to do so.
No wonder they accepted £4m in settlement. If it had dragged on to the end of the season, who knows, we might have got away with £1m or less, so far has his stock fallen.
Steve Solomon
119 Posted 24/02/2019 at 07:25:21
We seem to be the club where managerial careers go to die. Watford probably knew that Silva was limited in his prowess and saw the form slipping and then made 'claims' that our approach caused the bad form. We now know that this happens at every club he manages. They really saw us coming, didn't they?
We are becoming the laughing stock of the prem.
Having said that, poor club management aside, I do put faith in Marcelle Brands and I still maintain that we have a lot of expensive deadwood at the club that we need to get rid of. If we can survive this season, and it will be only just, we need to consider what the hell is happening here. It goes so far beyond just managing players and playing a system.
How is it that clubs like Wolves, Palace, Fulham, Watford can attract such apparently skillful players and mostly get the best out of them? I include Fulham because while we were playing manager-go-round, they signed Mitrovic and Schurle. How did that happen while we sat on Lukaku's 75 million?

Phil Martin
120 Posted 24/02/2019 at 07:45:53
Now I understand. Silva deliberately being shit to help Everton negotiate a smaller 'guilt' fee. Should be good to hit the heights now we've convinced Watford we're shit.
Ray Roche
121 Posted 24/02/2019 at 08:04:02
Our current form, over the last five games, is the same as Fulham’s.
Worrying.
Dave Abrahams
122 Posted 24/02/2019 at 09:03:08
I haven’t got much faith in Silva turning our form round but one thing he must have the team doing, if he can do anything with them, is to have them attacking, seriously attacking, from the start of the game, not after we go behind, this has happened in lots of games especially away from home, and we have lost the game, ninety minutes the match lasts unless it’s like Anfield then it’s ninety bleedin’ six.
Mike Allison
123 Posted 24/02/2019 at 09:38:50
I did Jay, but I haven't got time to fully engage with you and I don't care enough about changing your mind or having you understand mine.

You seem to be spoiling for a spat; that's not going to happen.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

124 Posted 24/02/2019 at 13:33:16
Mike @ 124.

Interesting.

You had time to take issue with Stewart and Ken earlier in the thread in a patronizing and condescending manner on reasonable and rationale points they made, but you 'haven’t got time to fully engage' with someone who posted a reasoned, rational and civil opinion on the one issue you contested: the validity of constantly changing managers.

Fair enough. Your choice if you have neither the inclination nor capacity to engage. But don't deflect and hide behind false claims that I am looking for a spat, or the issue is one of convincing the other to 'change their minds' or an inability to 'understand' the other.

It is simply an alternative opinion to your own.

You clearly fail in your own charge that you made towards Ken - an inability to read and comprehended what I posted - by insisting your post @ 114 countered the example I laid out on the success Watford has enjoyed by changing managers so frequently. It didn't.

So be it.

Martin Kulkarni
125 Posted 24/02/2019 at 17:31:48
Jay #115. I seriously hope your ‘logic’ is right and that the rest of the teams down there are able to beat one another often enough so that one of them ultimately keeps us out of the bottom three.

Personally, even if I was a gambling man, I wouldn’t put a single penny on us garnering more than a couple of points from here on in. I really hope I’m wrong on that too.

Denis Richardson
126 Posted 24/02/2019 at 19:14:44
Martin – we're not going down. Jay has succinctly detailed why. I wish others would also stop going on about being in a relegation fight when we're 11th.

We already have 33 points (which has an outside chance in itself of being enough) and only need 2-3 points from the remaining 11 games to be safe.

However bad our form is now, do you seriously think we can lose 11 games on the trot? I don't even know if we've ever managed that in our 100-odd year history or if any other team has ever managed that to think about it.

Guaranteed, if we lose the next 2-3, we'll have a new manager to see us over the line anyway.

Martin Kulkarni
128 Posted 24/02/2019 at 20:29:35
Denis #126. As per my post to Jay at #125. Ditto to you.

Tom #127. So funny. Your 4th and last paragraph. l’m thinking the same.

Martin Kulkarni
129 Posted 25/02/2019 at 12:51:11
Denis #126

'However bad our form is now, do you seriously think we can lose 11 games on the trot? I don't even know if we've ever managed that in our 100 odd year history or if any other team has ever managed that to think about it.'

Haven't Huddersfield lost 15 out of their last 16 games?

Neil Copeland
130 Posted 25/02/2019 at 20:55:11
If we lose our remaining 11 games, it will mean we have lost 14 on the trot. As bad as we have been playing, it's difficult to realistically see that happening.
Neil Copeland
131 Posted 25/02/2019 at 21:06:58
Martin #129, they have lost 13 out of 14 with spells of 8 on trot and currently 5 and counting.

Hopefully, we can get back to winning ways and then put in a decent performance against Everton Athletic!

Steven Jones
132 Posted 27/02/2019 at 10:58:32
Mike Allinson @ 39 – Spot on.

I think we shall see the true Silva team once we get through a stable pre-season and he gets to work a lot more with the players based upon stability

Come on, we all know the Howard Kendall story and the Alex Ferguson story. Worth waiting a season's cycle in my view and get behind the team.

Really good performance and result against Cardiff. The world will be a different place if we can get a good result on Sunday.

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