With the prospects of football revenues falling, a look at Everton's cashflows and the obvious conclusions to draw
My recent articles have focused on the impact Covid-19 will have on football as a result of the likely economic depression arising from the pandemic. An economic depression is a period of sustained reduction in economic activity resulting in mass corporate failure, a huge reduction in trade volumes, very high rates of unemployment, with the resulting impact on housing, spending, education and health, and in the situation we find ourselves now, all at a time before a viable vaccine is in place to beat a highly dangerous virus.
The global economy is going to shrink and shrink by a considerable amount. In the event the world's major countries cannot return to some form of normal activity within 12 months, the OECD has predicted the following:
The developed world, in which many have grown fat (literally and financially) on consumption, is going to discover what happens when people stop consuming.
In such a scenario, football faces a systemic collapse. As I've stated previously, football's revenues are driven almost entirely by discretionary consumer spending. The clubs, commercial partners, sponsors and broadcasters all rely on ordinary people buying tickets, buying merchandise, buying food & beverages, buying the products of the sponsors and paying subscriptions to the broadcasters.
All of that stops, at best reduces significantly. Furthermore, what would probably be considered as the most resilient of income streams, matchday revenues, won't exist. It won't exist because fans are not going to be allowed to go to matches for obvious reasons. Italy, unusually ahead of the curve, anticipates behind-closed-door matches until March 2021.
Even when the gates are re-opened, capacities will be reduced because of social distancing and from a revenue point of view, corporate hospitality will be much reduced — due to affordability, but also the behavioural change which the pandemic will create. Most people will not wish to voluntarily mix with large groups of other people in an unnecessary social or business environment. Until immunity through vaccination is assured, that has to be an inevitable consequence.
Football itself, as a product, has changed — the game as a spectacle no longer exists as it did. Playing a game in an empty stadium is going to be a very hard sell to advertisers. Football has sold itself not only on the game but on the occasion. Pre- and post-match rituals will take a long time to recover. For years, there has been an aversion to the showing Premier League matches in stadiums with even a small number of empty seats, but social distancing regulations will mean reduced capacities and half-empty stadiums at best.
Aesthetically unappealing, it reduces the value of the spectacle. One of the potential remedies to domestic broadcasters, almost certainly denied the season finale, is to offer more games next season as a means of mitigating refunds for this uncompleted season.
That requires some thinking though.
The last complete broadcasting cycle 2016-19 saw the Premier League receive €2,034 million per season from domestic broadcasters for 168 live games — valuing each game at €12.1 million.
The 2019-22 cycle agreed 200 live games for €1,884 million per season from domestic broadcasters (including Amazon) — valuing each game at €9.4 million.
Now in a scenario where all games in season 2020-21 are shown by Sky, BT and Amazon because stadiums are closed to the general public, the value per game for domestic broadcasters falls to €4.96 million — that would be a 59% fall in the value of each match compared to the previous cycle. Even agreeing to the 200 games plus the 92 uncompleted games (as a way of compensation) reduces the value to €6.45 million.
Why is this important? It's important regarding future rights negotiations — the broadcasters who are still in business will want significant discounts on current costs. The broadcasters, both domestic but particularly the overseas, will be making the following calculations: What is the value of each game relative to the reduced number of subscriber and consequently advertiser revenues? Both elements of their value calculation are reducing; the question is not if or when, but by how much?
Equally, the value of sponsorship and commercial deals are directly related to the value of broadcasting deals. A fall in the broadcast value leads to a fall in endorsement value.
Remember that the growth in Premier League broadcasting revenues in recent years has come from overseas broadcasters. Currently, overseas broadcasters contribute 45% of all revenues equating to £1.4 bn per season.
However, if the Premier League reduces the broadcast value of each game (as above), it is reasonable to expect those overseas broadcasters still in business would demand similar cuts. A 30% cut represents £420 million (approximately £21 million per club), a 50% cut £700 million (approximately £35 million per club).
Whatever the final negotiations, broadcast income (and therefore other endorsement income) will fall in the future.
Before projecting the impact of the above on Everton, an understanding of where we might be currently is necessary. Obviously certain assumptions have to be made, but I hope you will find them reasonable:
Projected Profit and Loss account:
Here are two scenarios: In common, they include the £30 million naming rights option received from USM (booked as commercial income) and a projected £59 million profit contribution from player trading. Operating costs have been reduced by 20% to reflect the lack of activity in the final 4 months of the year.
“m1” assumes that broadcasting revenues fall by £40 million based on £760 million recovered by the broadcasters from the Premier League. “m2” assumes a small change in broadcasting revenue reflecting the reduction in games broadcast domestically involving Everton.
Using the lower loss figure would produce aggregate losses since 2017 (Moshiri's first full financial year) of £154.3 million. Included in that is £229 million of player trading profits and the £30 million windfall from USM.
This, in the biggest bull market football has ever experienced.
What is interesting and perhaps most relevant in the current environment is to look at the movement of cash in the business in the last year.
As of the end June 2019, Everton had £27.4 million of cash in the bank. We had external loans of £36.4 million of which £17.9 million was to be repaid in July 2019 and the remaining £18.7 million (plus interest) in July 2020.
Included in this figure is £4 million of payments received for 2019-20 season ticket sales. The figure for this year's accounts will be lower given the payment holiday extended by the club.
We had trade debtors (monies due to us) which is almost entirely transfer fee instalments of £51.8 million due this financial year and £28.5 million subsequently.
Trade creditors (monies due to be paid by Everton) amounted to £73.5 million due this financial year and a further £34.4 million subsequently.
Assuming trade debtors and creditors have been received and paid this year results in a net outflow of cash of £21.7 million.
We were active in the transfer window during the summer of 2019. Net spend is important in calculating cash flow. Our net spend was £35.5 million. If we assume we paid and received an initial 50% of transfer instalments, that would see cash outflows of £17.7 million.
From the projected Profit and Loss accounts, projection m1 would show cash outflows of £43.6 million, and projection m2 outflows of £5.5 million.
In total, the club has projected negative cash flows of £62.8 million assuming no recovery of broadcast revenues. In the unlikely event of broadcasting cash recovery falling into this financial year, then the negative cash flow would rise to £100.9 million.
The question then is how is this funded? The accounts published in January show that Moshiri made an additional loan of £50 million in the period between 1 July 2019 and January 2020.
Additionally, Everton replaced their previous credit facilities with OCBC with a facility provided by Rights and Media Funding. The level of funding under this agreement will not be known until the next set of accounts are published.
Even on the highly optimistic assumption that revenues remained constant, it is clear from the above that, without a significant reduction in future costs, the club can only operate with the considerable financial support of Farhad Moshiri and an extension of credit facilities.
In the likely scenario of a significant reduction in revenues, then the situation obviously becomes worse. It can only result in an enormous reduction in our cost base. That is difficult to achieve. It can only be achieved by a reduction in the number of people employed by the club, particularly players, or by a significant reduction in player wages, or most likely both.
It is not business as usual. The cost base of the club has to be addressed. That is inevitable. It's inevitable from a regulatory point of view (even if there's a temporary relaxation to reflect the extraordinary circumstances currently) but more importantly for the club's future solvency.
Everton are not alone in this respect. Every football club has to be doing the same analysis. The game faces a systemic crisis and, even for the biggest clubs to survive, they must start taking action.
Reader Comments (418)
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1 Posted 19/04/2020 at 19:37:53
2 Posted 19/04/2020 at 20:07:30
However, I have been saying for 10 years or so that “every bubble bursts”. Is this that moment?
3 Posted 19/04/2020 at 20:38:26
4 Posted 19/04/2020 at 21:00:49
What do you think about different revenue streams from the online side? They will thinking how they can best maintain revenue and will be thinking outside the box to do so.
I have always thought that clubs in conjunction with Amazon etc may start offering Virtual season tickets that give access to fans all over the world to watch every game. All this may see the bigger clubs rebel against sharing the pot.
I can envisage a very acrimonious and rocky road ahead. We are entering a time of big changes to the way football is run.
5 Posted 19/04/2020 at 21:40:25
It's very easy to say that everything will go pear-shaped from the sidelines and it is a logical and valid viewpoint, however, Billionaires don't rely on logic alone, else they wouldn't be Billionaires. Football has had many shocks to the system in the last 100 years plus and it has so far managed to survive, it will do so again but probably in a very different form to how it is now.
It will be the players and their agents who will lose the most and about time too, many would say, but the clubs will find a way even if it means they let players run down their contracts and lose what has been invested in them up to this point, with many smaller clubs possibly going to the wall, there will be more value in the market to replace high-earners with cheaper versions.
It might take clubs a few years to become fighting fit again but it is still a money spinning operation with a global audience, granted that Everton FC may not be in the best position to take advantage of that opportunity but it would be foolish of the club to carry on as if nothing has happened.
6 Posted 19/04/2020 at 22:21:08
Whilst I think regulations will be loosened, I think only in the context that they will ignore the consequences of the shutdown re Covid-19. They will allow clubs to project what their position would have been if the season had run its normal course. I doubt very much they will allow the loosening of regulations to create a free-for-all in terms of transfer spending.
7 Posted 19/04/2020 at 22:22:50
8 Posted 19/04/2020 at 22:28:28
#4 Tony, I agree the internet offers new challenges and may benefit fans in the future. Offering games over the internet should be cheaper than subscription-based TV channels – given the reduced ability for many to pay in the future that should be a good thing, but for clubs it probably means much-reduced income for the foreseeable future
#5 Patrick, it is the reliance on external investors that presents the problem for Bramley-Moore Dock. Investor appetite for risk has reduced significantly yet the risk associated with funding a stadium has risen substantially – that's the issue in my opinion.
9 Posted 19/04/2020 at 23:01:19
10 Posted 19/04/2020 at 23:11:26
11 Posted 20/04/2020 at 00:01:46
12 Posted 20/04/2020 at 01:04:00
Ancelotti was very much ahead of the game when he predicted serious financial implications for Football; hopefully someone at Everton listened. All income is under treat. I was once told by my father that the difference between a recession and a depression was the difference between less income and no income. Football is in a depression and it's going to take years to address, particularly because the Football establishment, are oblivious to the problem, trying to keep going as before.
Whilst Everton will feel the impact, they are not as far up the ladder as other clubs and therefore will have a lesser height to fall from. They therefore may be able to recover quicker. At least us fans are hardened by being long-suffering.
13 Posted 20/04/2020 at 01:17:49
14 Posted 20/04/2020 at 01:33:27
No hoards of Asian, Scandinavian, Home Counties, etc. visitors or subscribers for that matter. Domestic subscribers will tighten their belts too.
Sky et al might lose money ffs. They may even cease to exist at all.
Clubs will have to exist on gate money again. Tea and pies etc. will still be sold, but the profits will stay in house maybe.
No more new shirts every 12mths at £130 a pop.
Players will have to scrape a living on only 5 or 10 times the average wage, not 100.
Coaches will have to build a team the old way. 25 man squads of multi-millionaires will shrink.
Training trips to Ainsdale sandhills may replace trips to Dubai sandhills.
Should you want one, you'll be able to pick up a Gold Bentley or such for a bargin price.
The rs and a few others of the usual suspects might go into administration.
The BBC might have to let go their army of rs pundits, Gary Lineker might have to restart his Dad's market stall business.
That's all I have of a positive nature so far - can anybody add to this?
15 Posted 20/04/2020 at 06:57:22
16 Posted 20/04/2020 at 07:21:39
Most overseas broadcasting companies already show all the games* so they will likely save money by not paying up their tranches, and of course lose revenue from games not shown.
*Most countries I've lived in show all the games except India which only shows selective "Big 6" games, and Korea which only shows games of teams that have Korean players. Even these buy their broadcasts from the likes of Sky or beIN Sports.
You talk about negotiations for future rights deals, but the rights are not negotiated, they are tendered.
17 Posted 20/04/2020 at 07:51:48
If domestic broadcasters will now show more games due to social distancing restrictions, are they not then likely to have an increase in subscribers and could therefore see broadcast deals increase?
I know from a personal point of view, I can't get to the games live, but don't see the point in paying Sky Sports for one game a month. If I could see more games per month, I'd probably subscribe rather than relying on dodgy internet streams.
18 Posted 20/04/2020 at 08:41:43
Clubs may well go to the wall. We all know now the ones that will survive and, indeed, prosper. Whether or not Everton is in that elite group who can tell.
One thing I would suggest though is that the prospect of an elite European league draws closer.
19 Posted 20/04/2020 at 09:04:29
Undoubtedly, Covid-19 has changed our way of life, possibly forever and not just in terms of football.
Unemployment is going to rise very substantially (e.g. Debenhams has gone into administration for a second time and they employ 20,000 nationwide). The High Street, as we knew it, has heard its death knell since the advent of online shopping and many of the small (unessential) businesses that were forced to close on March 23rd, may never re-open.
However, as Jerome (13) said, the national, regional and local governments will recognise this and all manner of grants and finance packages will be made available to generate "new" jobs once the main wave of Covid-19 has passed, or a vaccine has been found.
Consequently, as Bramley-Moore Dock has already received tacit support for financing from the city council, I believe the project will go ahead.
Whether or not, in the face of what others here have said about the possible changing face of football, it will still be deemed necessary, or desirable, is another matter?
20 Posted 20/04/2020 at 09:30:22
Some will be unscathed and many will sink for good. Social demands and requirements in a major global recession and within the UK a shrinking economy, people's priorities and requirements will change.
Things we took for granted like going shopping will take a long time to get back to normal. What will 'normal' be in the months ahead remains to be seen.
If the suppression plans are maintained through the summer, then a managed easing back to a level of life as normal, could happen.
For me, the government has been too lax from day one and, if they don't learn from these past couple of months, God help us all, if there's a second wave or a different strain of Coronavirus?
Football as we all, will have to cut our cloth to suit. Where this involves life's luxuries and treats remains to be seen.
Alan @18, I agree, that this pandemic may raise the profile of Uefa to a European Super League, which has been hovering for years now, but going back to science what's key is that a vaccine is discovered as the psychological damage of this and similar viruses now, and in the future, is surely a matter the WHO must be working on to try and resolve with high priority.
All stay safe and well.
21 Posted 20/04/2020 at 09:54:32
Whilst the City's need is no doubt greater post Covid-19, the willingness of the Council to accept the new risks may be too great. Happy to hear other's opinion on that.
22 Posted 20/04/2020 at 10:24:00
It will be interesting to see how clubs like the lot across the park, Man Utd and Arsenal do during Covid-19 given their ownership. Let's hope Mr Moshiri and/or Mr Usmanov see the long term potential for Everton and keep on investing.
23 Posted 20/04/2020 at 10:28:54
It will simply be a case of "stuff you lot, we're off".
24 Posted 20/04/2020 at 11:02:18
I'm hopeful that financial issues actually force closer ties between clubs and the communities they represent.
25 Posted 20/04/2020 at 11:03:20
I know it's different times but a 6-year global war that saw the razing of complete cities, millions dead, and countries in financial ruin didn't "ruin the world forever."
Yes, it had huge implications for many years but this isn't a world war we're going through and I believe that there will be a total recovery (that's not to discount the thousands of deaths that have/will occur, please believe me) and that what we're going through and will go through is temporary.
There will be changes, and not all of them negative but, in the end, I believe things will settle and return to be close to what we know today.
I believe part of the outlook is down to most of us being from a generation that have enjoyed (generally but not exclusively) the good life, certainly compared to our (my) parents.
I'm not saying none of us have suffered hardship but, generally speaking, we've had it quite easy. I know people will have suffered financial hardship and illness. I've done both having "battled" (always makes me squirm that term) cancer for several years so my opinion on here is not from a stance of having had things all my own way and having had things easy.
I just don't see the depths of doom that some others are forecasting and believe that, although this horrible thing will have far-reaching effects, those effects won't be all-consuming or permanent.
You sometimes have to try to be positive, even when that's almost impossible.
26 Posted 20/04/2020 at 11:04:36
I reckon the kopites et al would be bored stiff after a season or two.
27 Posted 20/04/2020 at 11:35:40
28 Posted 20/04/2020 at 11:37:03
As always, another brilliant well-researched piece. I wonder what the term 'business as usual' will look like?
I posted over a week ago that, with restrictions on mass gatherings to be in place for most of this year, I think many of the top teams will be looking at other revenue streams.
Certainly Man Utd and Liverpool may well opt out of the Sky deal and utilize their own TV channels to sell their games to their supporters. Both Man Utd and Liverpool have argued on many occasions that its unfair that the Sky money is split evenly between the 20 Premier League clubs. I also think that Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal would also consider a similar route.
Should these clubs go down this route then either Sky would have to offer them a much bigger slice of the cake to keep them on board. Sky's whole business plan is underpinned by the advertising it gets from showing live Premier League games. Without the top sides advertisers would deal direct with the breakaway clubs, which would cripple Sky's income.
So it may be that to survive the other clubs may have to accept a greatly reduced package from Sky and therefore make the top 6 an even more permanent cartel than it is at present. Maybe other top European clubs would come together to create a European cartel which would inevitably create a European league.
29 Posted 20/04/2020 at 11:47:21
The money may well keep on rolling in for them but, as you say, after a couple of seasons they will be bored shitless of it. The fans I mean, not the money men at each club. They will be rolling in it. If, and when, it happens though, that's it, no turning back, once you're gone you're gone!
30 Posted 20/04/2020 at 11:51:56
31 Posted 20/04/2020 at 12:03:16
People will be staying in more, indoor mass gatherings will be reduced. People will always want entertainment and they will want safe, exciting entertainment. Massive internet media companies will be all over the possibilities of streaming every football game at a cost or at a bundle cost maybe even as a virtual season ticket to watch every game. Security will be tightened to eliminate foreign streams.
It is possible given that angle that the TV money could yet be stable or even grow on the next auction of packages. Especially if there is more diversity in them than before and the likes of Amazon, Apple, Google, & Disney get involved further on their own or as a partner with Sky or BT.
32 Posted 20/04/2020 at 12:14:21
33 Posted 20/04/2020 at 12:26:25
Can you please clarify as understanding the minutia is always of concern to me.
34 Posted 20/04/2020 at 12:30:30
35 Posted 20/04/2020 at 12:35:15
So, for example, Adam Lallana, end of your career. Xherdan Shaqiri... Want to name more, everyone? Lot of risk now signing for one of the 18. Do you really want to be in the Barcelona youth team, Gerard Deulofeu?
Suddenly, there will be a distinct lack of players. Yes, the Messis and Ronaldos of this world will be okay, but you will need 450 players and how many of them may get one season and then – end of career?
And how can this ever be restraint of trade? And the other hundreds of clubs outside of the ESL 18 will all be pretty miffed to miss out on the buffet so what is in it for them to allow the ESL to take the cream?
And we can not see the 18 willing to have promotion and relegation, can we? It is all about the money and them being part of a club. Can you see Real Madrid having a bad season and coming bottom and being replaced by the winners of the Champions League, having to apply to the Spanish La Liga and then trying to win the Champions League to get back into the ESL?
It all depends on whether the remnant play tough or roll over and die.
36 Posted 20/04/2020 at 12:50:08
As for the comments about what the greedy Sky Six might attempt, short of them breaking away to form a European Super League, other clubs need simply refuse to play them if they demand more than their fair share of TV money.
If a European League does go ahead, I agree with Rob H but would add to his comments the fact that all these clubs expect to be near the top as some sort of God-given right – any European Super League by necessity would see a number of them grubbing around at the bottom like this season's Norwich, Villa, Watford, Brighton, Bournemouth etc. How many of them would risk their current place at the top table for that?
37 Posted 20/04/2020 at 12:52:27
38 Posted 20/04/2020 at 13:23:34
In my experience, accountants are negative, 'count the shekels' types (not meaning this disrespectfully), whereas the sales and entrepreneurial types are somewhat more flamboyant in their thoughts.
My view is, given a few years, life will get back to the normal hungry, greedy, avaricious side of life in which the richest 1 per cent will fuck us all over yet again. Now, I'm not talking only about the very Joe on the street but even the guys un gals earning well over £100k pa being fucked over. The world needs to change and big time. Do I think it will? No effing chance, IMO. There is too much pent-up greed in modern-day society too allow this whole virus situation to spoil their avarice.
39 Posted 20/04/2020 at 13:40:30
“Most people will not wish to voluntarily mix with large groups of other people in an unnecessary social or business environment. Until immunity through vaccination is assured, that has to be an inevitable consequence.“
40 Posted 20/04/2020 at 14:05:09
History doesn't repeat itself, people do.
Just as the then Big 5 jumped ship to the Premier League for money. The virus, social distancing, will cause the now big however number they are now to leapfrog the ESL and setting up their own online Premier League... the E League?
41 Posted 20/04/2020 at 14:40:15
Without a doubt, the global lockdown and suspension of commerce and the movement of money at every level is, and will continue to have, an enormous impact.
There are many, many unknowns yet to overcome. Pressure is already building to ease the lockdown as in many countries the number of reported cases and fatalities start to fall.
What we don't know is if such relaxation leads to a second, potentially even more virulent, wave of Covid-19. We don't know if a mutant of Covid-19 could heap even greater misery on top of what has already happened.
We still don't have a vaccine to counter Covid-19, or a likely date when it could be widely available. Given all that, it continues to strike me as a complete fantasy that any large gatherings of people in any situation is something that should be encouraged or endorsed, never mind in relation to a common interest we all hold, Everton FC and the Premier League.
Without question, the sale of match-going season tickets must take a hit as the buyer has, at present, no guarantee of when games will be played or, if they are, whether they will even be allowed attend.
The questions which Paul raises (again) about the broadcasters transmitting the games and a potential drop in paid TV subscriptions is a related, but still separate, issue.
Such media outlets are DESPERATE to have fresh, live content to broadcast, primarily to generate income from advertising and subscribers. Their subscribers feel the same.
Broadcasters won't give a damn if games are played out in empty stadiums. It could be quite a hoot, listening to players hollering to each other. I'm guessing the pitchside effect mics will be largely muted 'cos such dialogue gets very fruity!
Hell, they may even play the equivalent of canned laughter as used by 1960s American sit-coms to mask the echoing around an empty stadium.
IMO the flaw in Paul's position on mass cancellation of paid TV subscriptions is that it is something many have turned to in lock-down. It has become as essential as a pint of milk and a loaf of bread.
It is also often tied up with two more household essentials in these troubled times: your telephone and home internet service.
I previously pointed out all savvy businesses know it costs you more to gain a first time customer than it does to retain – and continue selling to – an existing customer. Some service providers have already offered 'holiday payments' and suspended sub fees for existing customers for 3 months. They are desperate to retain such customers now rather than expend more in the future to tempt them back or replace them with new customers.
Yes, such media may take a short-term hit in reduced subscriptions and advertising revenue, but I fancy both will recover quickly once things get back to normal. I don't see this as big a hit as Paul suggests it might prove.
Going forward, however, all media outlets may in future be a bit more circumspect when tendering for broadcasting rights paid to such as the Premier League for live match broadcasts, with greater safeguards should sport – life! – be suspended again as it now has.
The global impact on all economies in the wake of this is a much deeper issue. In truth, it calls into question the entire practices and infrastructure of capitalism and protective governments which have enabled corporate mal-practice to the cost of the common good.
This crisis has seriously exposed those governments and their drip-drip-drip budget cuts that left them ill-prepared for this pandemic, as opposed to those who anticipated such an event – as all governments are aware of – but who with good forward planning and stockpiling have largely ridden out the storm. The latter nations will be those who bounce back quicker from this.
I also remain upbeat about the new stadium build. The UK government, post-Brexit, post-Covid-19, will be desperate to kick-start the economy and employment levels. A project such as Bramley-Moore Dock – just the build itself – will provide 100s of jobs as well as support local suppliers and small to medium-sized companies.
There will be less resistance in granting planning permission as both local and central government need 'big build' projects such as BMD.
As a result of this crisis, the cost of essential construction materials like steel are at a 3-year low, oil is at a 20- year low (just a week ago, it was at a 5-year low). It's a 'cheap' time to build.
Interest rates on loans are virtually zero. The banks also need money. And I am confident that, in this climate, the savvy corporate accountant that Moshiri is will take full advantage of this. His own wealth is enough to secure the loan even before seeking out 3rd parties.
As I also said previously, if anything is at risk, I would guess the Everton legacy project in L4 is the one more likely to be 'put on hold' until a more favourable and stable time. That is where Everton's 'cost-cutting' is likely to impact hardest.
I acknowledge there are many, many unknowns in this equation still and –– as it already has - this will impact and work its way through for a good few years yet.
I believe this is really going to shake the tree in football and many communities could see their clubs lose their professional status or even fold alltogether and that, in this country at least, we may see a much slimmed-down version of the top 4 leagues.
But, like others in this thread, I don't take a total doomsday position on things. Good things can and will emerge from this.
42 Posted 20/04/2020 at 14:43:21
I am the messiah, the other Brian is a very naughty boy.
43 Posted 20/04/2020 at 15:31:12
44 Posted 20/04/2020 at 16:16:07
I think we'd better get behind every single one of them in a major way. They save Everton millions of pounds if they make the grade.
We're not going to be signing players for obscene wages any time soon. Our youth academy, Tom Davies, Dominic Calvert-Lewin, Jonjoe Kenny etc. might be the key to financial safety and insolvency.
45 Posted 20/04/2020 at 16:35:13
46 Posted 20/04/2020 at 16:37:14
I agree with you regarding our ability to bounce back. We will, this time it might just take a bit longer.
Here where I live, they've reopened the beaches from 6 am to noon every day. The rest of the country is in an uproar. People who live here pay it zero mind, and we all know it's safe. People / families stay at lleast 6 feet apart. All the while, the national news outlets take pictures of our beach at an angle of just above head height at a distance – a panoramic long shot if you will. It makes the beach look crowded as hell, when in effect the opposite is true – people are keeping distance from one another responsibly. Agenda reporting? Sensationalism?
I completely recognize Covid-19 is wicked contagious. It's obvious. But part of me still says if there is a next time around, we simply cannot shut down society again. The economic impact is crippling – 22 million unemployed here in the States now and rising. All the while, recognizing social distancing has played a major factor and had a tremendous effect on the spread, the numbers here are still less than influenza and in some parts of our country the numbers are minuscule. Surely the economic impact of all of this will have a knock-on negative health effect on our populous? How many millions on medication won't be able to afford prescriptions for starters?
There's a lot of protests occurring here in America. They are framed by a disingenuous media who detest Donald Trump (I'm not a fan, either) as "Trump rallies" and shown in a negative light. The real truth for me is that most people – Trump acolytes and non-Trump [read 'reasonable'] people agree some of this might, just might, be overkill.
I'm truly beginning to believe those protesters might have a point. Sheltering in place while you lose all your income and savings isn't the best plan for millions upon millions of people. And the data, while sensationalized, doesn't back up this drastic response. It just doesn't. But, coupling that last statement with a recognition of the world's efforts to reduce the spread, how bad could those numbers have been had we not isolated?
It's all a mess, but I believe one thing very concretely – we cannot do this again. The negative effect this is having on the economy could be worse than the negative health effects. That's not a popular, main-stream sentiment, but a risk-reward analysis has to be completed in a transparent, brutally honest fashion if we have a "Covid-19 Round 2".
But bringing this back around, Brian is right, we will bounce back.
For me... as I say, your mileage may vary.
Dabo Swinney, Head Football Coach at Clemson University:
"This is America, man. We've stormed the beaches of Normandy. We've driven a car on Mars. We've walked on the moon. We have the smartest people in the world. We're going to rise up and we're going to kick this thing right in the teeth and get back to our lives."
The Irish, English, Welsh, etc. might not like the "Americanism" in the above quote. Just substitute your country where it says "America" because the premise holds true for everyone.
47 Posted 20/04/2020 at 16:40:43
Funnily enough I am not an accountant, nor do I have a negative business outlook usually. I just think the club and fans must also examine the "what if the worst happens" scenario.
"The Esk" is quite boring really, just a nickname from school that has stuck.
Keep safe all.
48 Posted 20/04/2020 at 17:01:47
The economy can and will be mended over time, the dead cannot be resurrected. This virus is nothing like the flu as it's a completely new virus and therefore it won't be easily contained for quite some time. Lockdowns brief or prolonged ones will be the order of the day until a vaccine can be found or if a treatment can be manufactured, which will nullify it's worst effects.
Stay safe and hope that the scientific community can crack the case.
49 Posted 20/04/2020 at 17:25:12
I'm not sure I believe this or not, simply food for thought.
You say the economy can be mended over time, the dead can not be resurrected. Any sane person with a heart would agree.
You can't resurrect persons who die early due the the stress inflicted on them and their heart rates from financial ruin, you can't resurrect those who die because they couldn't afford doctor visits or meds, etc. There's a real health affect to the economy crashing.
If I can sit in a driveway with friends 10 feet apart and have drinks, is there any reason kids can't go to schools in smaller, more spread out environments? Why can't sporting events go on in stadiums with one in every 5 seats filled / 20% capacity? Why can't restaurants stay open with smaller capacities enabling people to maintain employment and their companies remain solvent?
There's other ways under the circumstances. As I say, I'm not sure about any of this, but the data vs. the impact isn't adding up for me presently. If that's unpopular, oh well. It's just thinking out loud.
Alternatives simply must be explored, I think that's my point.
50 Posted 20/04/2020 at 17:37:48
51 Posted 20/04/2020 at 18:00:44
Might be a load of pony, like another one saying Richard Branson has not paid any tax in this country for 14 years, because we all know everyone is bored at the minute, who knows?
52 Posted 20/04/2020 at 18:13:09
It hasn't worked and we are now de facto in a lockdown with cases growing.
53 Posted 20/04/2020 at 18:21:07
Paul – That was always one question I asked when approached with fanciful borrowing requests, What if?
Not many understood the question and were surprised. A 'what if' scenario never entered their tiny brain cells.
This virus has certainly been one hell of a 'What If' and it appears that not even world governments asked themselves that question – they certainly will from now on.
54 Posted 20/04/2020 at 18:37:52
That's a valuable bit of information I frankly wasn't aware of. That changes the view through that prism for me.
I'll check out the Singapore situation online later this evening and try to educate myself on it, as it basically is directly what I thought might be an alternative.
Frankly saddens me it's not working.
That's actually one shinning light in this whole situation. 'What if' will now hopefully be prepared for, and moving forward we won't suffer as much.
55 Posted 20/04/2020 at 18:50:09
There are nations such as South Korea, Germany and Finland, who took the known science seriously and prepared accordingly for an inevitable pandemic such as this.
It is those nations who have minimalised Covid-19's impact, both in the number of cases and mortality rates. Indeed, in Korea, the system is so efficient that very little closed down.
Those nations will return to normal quicker than those governments and countries that, rather than fund its 'Contagion Contigency' plans or maintain its Public Health and Social Welfare Systems and reward its staff accordingly, year on year made 'savings' on those essential services which are now overwhelmed.
The narcissist that is Donald Trump continues to promote the notion that he is doing a 'great job', even though 'America First' in this case means your nation are global leaders in both the number of reported cases and fatalities - around a third and a quarter of ALL cases and deaths respectively.
Trump ridicules former President Obama, even though he inherited a plan and resources from him for a pandemic such as this, only to then cut funding to it almost immediately on entering office.
He politicizes everything, blames everybody but himself and has literally uttered these very words in respect to the pandemic:
'I take no responsibility'.
His inflammatory Tweets to 'Liberate [insert state here] are grossly irresponsible.
And as New York Governor Cuomo cuttingly exposed in the following video at the weekend, Trump doesn't want to get involved in possibly THE most vital intervention in all this: testing, 'cos it's 'too hard and difficult'.
Quite a shocking admission from someone who, self-promoting as always, describes himself as having an 'incredibly large brain'.
Since the Spanish Flu (and other near-pandemic viruses since then) every nation has been aware that an outbreak such as this was not a matter of 'if', but 'when'.
Blame the policy-makers and their budgetary cuts for their ill-preparedness that has seen the global economy grind to a standstill.
The science is strong.
Do you really want to gamble on your own and your family's health Jamie on a hunch and ease lock-down too prematurely?
More, do you want to place under greater stress and exposure the very people on the frontline combating this?
My wife, a surgical nurse working in a public hospital, is not even half way through ANOTHER 15 hour shift right now. She has to stock up on her own PPE because the hospital has exhausted its own stock.
On the weekend I saw numbers for the state we live in that my wife falls into the highest risk category for those who have contracted Covid-19: health worker, aged 50-59. 45% of ALL reported cases.
She just told me the father of a nurse she works alongside has just been put on one of the few remaining ventilators available.
I'm bricking it every day that unknowingly my wife could already be a carrier.
FICA EM CASA, PORRA!!!
I'll leave you to translate that into crude Anglo-Saxon, Jamie.
56 Posted 20/04/2020 at 19:13:00
I think some of the scenarios you mention are being considered, although not necessarily by the government. The Blair Foundation (remember good old Tony?) came up with a phased approach to relaxing the lockdown, with a traffic light approach, whenever it should start, Boris is unsurprisingly against doing it prematurely.. .Things like opening pubs, restaurants etc, with a social distancing approach was on there, but not necessarily top of the list. Opening schools again was there, again with social distancing, with primary schools in there, maybe to release parents to get back to work.
The thing that got most green lights was keeping old buggers like me firmly in lockdown. It had one red light, against it, which is one of perceived fairness and acceptance. The Saga Louts will be revolting! I've read this could last for 12 months for over-70s but that might be the Government testing out reaction.
The medical bod at this evenings government briefing was asked about Liverpool's match with Atletico. She was a bit non-committal, and said in normal circumstances such a match would not be much of a threat, but conceded that it may have led to the spread of the virus in this case. The Chancellor didn't concede that it was a mistake to play it, but perhaps that's because at that time, the Government had not yet stopped sporting events. Football did that for itself a few days later, preempting the government. Not sure what that means for sporting events starting again.
The furlough scheme opened today with 140,000 firms signed up already, with promises of cash in accounts in 6 working days. We'll see. Good news for many small companies like my son's if so.
It seems as if the government had decided to turn down Branson's request fpr a loan for Virgin Airlines, such has been the backlash against it. This offer is possibly an attempt to oil the wheels.
On we go and keep safe folks. Jay, my prayers are with you and your family. Amazing I've started praying again after a bit of a break.
57 Posted 20/04/2020 at 19:20:15
I think what I'm saying is that we can't simply move forward thinking what we've done is sufficient – so I think I agree with you in the main.
We need to be, as you've addressed something I wasn't aware of, more like Finland and Germany moving forward.
Regarding Trump, he's a narcissistic liar. Of that I have strong conviction. However, on the other side of the equation, you have a motivated media who can't report the actual news and immediately and without reservation start the witch hunt mode. Nancy Pelosi (Speaker of the House here) actually delayed the economic relief bill an entire week while she worked to insert abortion funding into the bill. Now that's a topic I will not entertain in a forum, nor would any sane individual. But I do think anyone can agree that delaying much-needed aid to small business shouldn't be held up by funding a program that should be in a healthcare bill?
The answer lies somewhere in the middle of these two polarities. Problem with the world is that it is polarized to the point of ridiculousness. And whereas Trump can't freaking wait to stir the shit-pot, the other side certainly has their issues too.
We need to figure out a way to get back to "normal" as quickly as is possible. General introduction, complete shutdown, partial shutdown... whatever works. The key is analyzing the data and coming to a conclusion that 90% of people can agree is the way forward. Whether that happens or not, I have very little hope and no idea. I will say one stat that keeps leaping out at everyone is that this affects, overwhelmingly, the older ages and those with preexisting conditions. That does not equate to a self-absorbed, "that's not my problem, fuck them, I need to do what I have to do" mindset. But it surely must provide some clues to how we can approach this if it rears its ugly head again?? And, quite depressingly for me, it's not if, it's when. This thing will come back is my guess.
I pray to God your wife is 100% healthy.
59 Posted 20/04/2020 at 19:43:24
I don't know about 6 days as that seems awfully quick, but I'm sure your son is in line for any relief he can get. And he should be.
I was just approved for an SBA EIDL loan this morning. I submitted my application on March 22nd. The SBA (Small Business Administration here in the USA) had a website crash and wiped out all loan applications prior to March 25th. I re-submitted my loan application on March 30th. I should be funded by week's end.
Every business I know of is surviving by borrowing. That's a long term frightening thing. What's really frightening is if I told you the sum of the loan for my tiny little company, you'd fall out of your chair. It's a large amount by anyone's standard. What that tells me is society is doubling down by facilitating debt to survive.
We're writing hot checks and saying, "nothing to see here, as you were."
Deficits, personal and governmental, have to be reduced drastically moving forward. And that includes Everton. As a football club we have to start to live within our means. Not chase the dream and asking sugar-daddy Moshri to write a check every year to cover the loses. If we've learned anything through this dreadful situation, surely it is that all of us need to be more financial stable? From the very, very top all the way down to individual households.
60 Posted 20/04/2020 at 19:48:21
61 Posted 20/04/2020 at 20:13:59
Yup, debt is an ongoing issue. Apparently indebtedness, personal and business is bigger than in 2008,;and we know how that ended up! This crisis will inflate that further for sure, and all economies are a bloody sight more vulnerable now.
Tony, Imperial College estimated 260,000 deaths if we did nothing, which was the original plan. Herd immunity and all that stuff.
62 Posted 20/04/2020 at 20:17:15
My daughter's partner was in Singapore when the measures were brought in. Checking temperatures, strict tracing and clear legal demarcation. It's interesting that it didn't work as well as expected. If it could have worked, probably the best place at implementing it would have been Singapore.
I know that the situation is concerning at the moment and most people are trying to do the right thing, but my concern is the second wave, probably beginning next winter.
I think that Governments are thinking in terms of resources and will be increasingly thinking of the economic cost. Will they and ordinary citizens be as vigilant next winter, when the virus possibility mutates and is even more virulent, as in the previous pandemic?
63 Posted 20/04/2020 at 20:24:36
Football has long been living beyond its means with broadcasting wages far too high in comparison to turnover, in the same way banks sanctioned 95-100% mortgages. It just isn't sustainable and only the slightest blip caused the whole thing to implode.
As far down as the Championship and maybe even further, clubs have been forced into gambling to get promoted to feed the wages they have to pay. A salary cap has to be the way but why would the biggest clubs agree to it?
I hope that the Titanic that is modern football rights itself because it's taking on water...
64 Posted 20/04/2020 at 20:25:28
Jamie, congratulations on being approved for your EIDL loan. I'm still waiting to hear on mine (applied April 4, a few days after you), and my PPP application is in limbo until the program is funded again.
Also Jamie, it is not true that Nancy Pelosi "actually delayed the economic relief bill an entire week while she worked to insert abortion funding into the bill." That is a false claim posted on Facebook and widely disseminated by right-wing media and bloggers. Both Politifact and Factcheck.org, non-partisan fact-checkers, found it to be untrue.
Steve #52, thanks for that update from Singapore. I'm surprised to hear their measures are failing. South Korea deployed exactly the same measures, and they have worked beautifully.
65 Posted 20/04/2020 at 20:38:48
Lots of interesting points in the posts, especially why can't we just open up and do things slowly? Well lots of things to think about and several other countries doing things differently. It's like comparing apples and oranges, so very tricky.
For example South Korea had testing infrastructure far beyond anyone else after a SARS outbreak went ‘south'. They got it right this time around.
It feels more the more respectful of government and socially compliant populations have done better with the virus. Just an observation you understand. My own experience is that wouldn't work in the US, people are too focused on themselves and care less for others. By opening up slowly I feel people would just think ‘well if they can we can'.
The honeymoon is over here in New Jersey, the respectful nature has gone and people are ignoring the recommendations, supermarkets are especially problematic. I came back on Friday pretty stressed, very few people even tried to distance until we queued for the register, where we were rightly made to. I think many people think the peak has passed and it's time to crack on. I needed 10 minutes in the car to chill, it was not good.
Having states under quarantine and some not is like having a peeing section in the pool. 😑
66 Posted 20/04/2020 at 20:45:28
'If we've learned anything through this dreadful situation, surely it is that all of us need to be more financial stable?'
I have known this for years, Jamie, but have found that I always came up short in getting there.
67 Posted 20/04/2020 at 21:07:56
Interesting to contrast your experience in New Jersey, which has been under siege for many exhausting weeks, with mine here in southwest Oregon, where the virus hasn't really arrived (only five cases over two counties) but most people are still taking it seriously.
Does your supermarket have a pickup/delivery service? Mine does, and at my wife's insistence, I'm using it. (Love your pool comment.)
Looks like neither of us will be whistling games for a long time to come. I've put my ref shirts in storage in the back of the closet.
68 Posted 20/04/2020 at 21:08:13
As well as financial this could cause geopolitical instability and social unrest. The stakes to get out of the lockdown safely couldnt be higher.
69 Posted 20/04/2020 at 21:11:06
Your experience is quite frightening regarding a visit to the Supermarket. The problem with the scenarios you describe, is that the virus could trive in such an environment and may become a threat for a number of years.
Stay safe and do the best you can regarding correct procedures.
70 Posted 20/04/2020 at 21:13:45
If history does repeat itself, like the Spanish Flu did, then things only got a whole lot worse when the second wave arrived, and this is what concerns me the most now.
Jamie said change the Americanism to whatever country you come from, and whilst I agree that every nation has tough guys, it's a bit different when you can't see the enemy, especially when we are still so blind to so many things about this horrible Covid-19.
I feel for you, Jay W, just hope that your wife is going to be okay, along with everyone else on TW, and thanks once again to Lyndon and Michael, because I've cursed this website for taking up way too much of my time in the past, but it's been an absolute godsend during this pandemic, so thanks very much to you two gentlemen. 👏👍
71 Posted 20/04/2020 at 21:26:38
That is, with a global lockdown and petroleum not being consumed at normal levels, the producers are not 'moving' their existing stock and so are not able to replenish their reserves with new oil that continues to be extracted.
As a result, they are PAYING buyers around $37 a barrel to move on existing deposits.
Another related issue is that untimely as the Coronavirus has been, it has also been timely in the sense that people everywhere, with the vast reduction in emissions from production and transport, have been able to see and hear - literally! - their planet in a new light for the first time in decades.
The Himalayas can be seen from hundreds of miles away in locations previously living under a constant haze. The canals in Venice are more crystaline. An astonishing chorus of birdsong previously drowned out by traffic can be heard in even the most populous of cities. All manner of (large) wildlife has been seen in vacant urban streets, even during the daytime.
There is strong emerging evidence that citizens in urban dwellings where polluted air particles are more prevalent are more vulnerable and more likely to contract Covid-19.
Sadly, the odds are that once things are 'normalized' again, the environment, the planet, our single largest ventilation system, will once more be a low priority for both governments and corporations alike.
72 Posted 20/04/2020 at 21:36:38
You are so right. It's hard for states who have one large city and low population densities to comprehend a state like mine and vice versa, but the virus will get there, albeit on the slow train.
It's particularly hard to equate that with countries who have the same geographical features, Scandinavian countries always look great in any situation and we hold them up as paragons of ideal ways to combat societal issues. One large city, a very compliant society who think more about others than themselves, (extremely good social fabric; health system etc) low rates of transmission because of a mostly rural geography and low levels of international travel into their country all has helped stem the virus. It's very hard to scale that up to countries like the UK & US.
Compare that with a New Jerseyan or New Yorker who largely hates government interference and would run over their own granny to be somewhere, passing 100s of people every minute on those sidewalks. A slow and gradual return will be very tricky without a relapse.
I'm not condemning any plan until the dust settles. Too many variables to look at across each country to offer a useful comparison.
I've gotten all my fresh food via a restaurant we know, curbside pick-up, no contact, it helps keep them going and their suppliers. Sadly all supermarket deliveries and pickups are booked beyond 2440!!!
All I know is my experience left me rattled. It very much felt every man for themselves. Thankfully several transatlantic zoom parties have left me hammered mid-afternoon, it helps
73 Posted 20/04/2020 at 21:42:03
This pandemic has put life in perspective in every aspect and football at this time isn't important.
74 Posted 20/04/2020 at 21:59:56
75 Posted 20/04/2020 at 22:03:17
Mike - I'll check your fact checker. God only knows if it's accurate as fact checkers skew shit now, too. Pelosi absolutely delayed the signing of the bill by a week. I distinctly remember it. Whether or not that was to insert abortion funding, I'll check. I think I heard it on FOX, so it must be true! 😂 I most definitely didn't get that from Facebook. Facebook is not, never has been, and never will be a reliable source of news. Then again, neither is CNN.
Sir John - States with little to no problems shouldn't delay business as usual because New York has 55% of the cases in America (or whatever the number). This is where I get very, very conservative. The USofA is a conglomerate of 50 independent states, not a centralized government. The Founding Fathers didn't trust centralized government. The Federal government should always, as default, delegate decisions to the States. It's our way, it's the right way, and that's one I won't argue because you'll never, ever change my mind. 'Merica - 50 brothers all making up their own damn minds for the collective good. Cheers. 🤙🏻
Fucking bring the footy back. It's killing me, God I miss it terribly.
76 Posted 20/04/2020 at 22:05:25
77 Posted 20/04/2020 at 22:35:15
I'm lucky so far that my family are still safe but the worry that both my wife and I are experiencing with some of my sons in the firing line is sometimes unbearable. In this time, I thank all contributors on here for giving me a diversion. I'm done watching politicians on both sides of the pond spewing bile and bullshit. Maybe some on here should take up politics as you care more for your fellow human beings than those muppets.
My best wishes to all ToffeeWebbers and our former offsiders. Stay safe everyone.
78 Posted 20/04/2020 at 22:40:19
That's because you are right, but I think that Clubs and the Premier League are in denial at the moment. They are hoping that things will blow over and they will be able to resume as before, but they won't and there is a lack of leadership, and no actual course of action has been decided.
79 Posted 20/04/2020 at 22:45:36
80 Posted 20/04/2020 at 22:56:06
Your wife is heroic in meeting the demands. As an aside, my daughter in London has for years been managing the problems of homeless people, face-to-face. She's still doing it, 14 hours a day, with next to no personal protection equipment being available to her. Everyone here rightly eulogises the NHS staff but there is a marginally smaller army of other UK carers who have all but been forgotten about.
And on Donald Trump's claim of possessing a large brain, I'm given to understand he only said that after reading a picture book about alpha-male primates.
81 Posted 20/04/2020 at 00:09:16
There are no "states with little to no problems" (and New York has less than ⅓ of our cases, not 55%) that can go back to business as usual and make any difference. I mean, yeah, the Dakotas and Wyoming and Montana have had few cases, but if they went back to business, who would notice?
Among the heavily populated states that drive the US economy, there are states that handled their business and shut down in time, and those who didn't. None of the ones in that former category think it's anywhere near time to reopen. And, as you say, they will decide for themselves – even if folks elsewhere think they should get back to business.
You and Terry White should debate Florida. He's in the conservative Panhandle. Would be plumb interestin'.
82 Posted 21/04/2020 at 01:29:40
Not to stir the shitpot a la Trump but, I've checked some facts -
There's been, as of yesterday, 764 deaths in Florida due to Covid-19. That's not enough fatalities to shut down an entire state's economy.
More people die of heart attacks in a month here. Granted, Florida is God's waiting room, but hey-ho, details.
And there are many more states with little to no problems. Google "Covid-19 deaths in Kansas" and have a gander.
Even Dr Faucci has acknowledged the initial models grossly over-estimated the potential number of deaths due to the virus. That guy is as reliable as they come, for me, and he's admitting the numbers were inflated by a wide, wide margin.
WHO (run by a guy whose reputation is shite, by the way) has published that between 290,000 and 650,000 people die of the flu worldwide every year. There's been 169,794 deaths due to Covid-19 worldwide as of yesterday.
Ergo, and back to my main premise, we simply must look at alternative ways to combat this virus when the second wave comes. Complete and utter shutdown is not the way forward. These numbers aren't adding up to the response.
Disclaimer for everyone except Mike, because he already knows this: The above doesn't mean we shouldn't have isolated, nor does it equate to not caring about those tragic deaths due to the pandemic. Nor does it mean we should just all yell "Fuck it!", strip, dance naked in the streets 1 foot apart, and drink till we puke.
Just analyze the data and come up with a much, much better plan and response.
83 Posted 20/04/2020 at 01:54:05
As far as the lockdown is concerned, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Here in the land down under, we have a population and went into lockdown fairly quickly. With a population of 26 million, we have had 71 deaths.
The flip side is that 1.6 million people have lost their income.
Two of the questions that remain unanswered for me are:
Our country is $573 Billion in debt (at the moment). Who do we owe it to and how are we going to pay it back?
84 Posted 21/04/2020 at 02:10:48
Just who are the lenders? Answers on a postcard please, or is it all designed by rapacious, capatilistical, privately owned businesses?
85 Posted 21/04/2020 at 02:20:07
Jamie, it's not about the number of deaths directly, it's more about the number of people who contract the virus at the same time. You could of course lock away the aged and vulnerable but, given the number of deaths of those in care facilities is expected to be very high with a lockdown in place, that doesn't seem to be a solution either. There are also fit and formerly well people across the age ranges who have succumbed to the virus too.
86 Posted 21/04/2020 at 02:21:21
As to the death toll in Florida (now 823)... sorry, my friend, but you guys are six weeks behind the curve. The virus hit the West Coast in January. It didn't get to Florida until March. And Florida is still at the slow end of the curve for testing. I hate to say this, but you may see a different picture by Memorial Day. Hope not.
Here in Oregon, we were one of the first states hit by the virus, and one of the first to slam the doors. They're still closed. But we have fewer cases and fewer deaths than even Kansas. So it works.
"...come up with a much, much better plan and response"? You betcha – all for it. I just haven't heard anyone suggest one yet, just some spitballing about reopening business where there are few current cases confirmed – which doesn't account for slow incubation and testing. If you've heard a better plan, shoot me a link, I'd love to read about it.
I would also make one more delicate point about comparing heart attacks to Covid-19 deaths. The former were going to happen anyway. The latter were not. Had the proper measures been taken earlier, many of America's Covid-19 deaths – now the highest number in the world, which is humiliating in addition to tragic – could have been prevented.
So pick another comparison, like homicide. By next week, Florida will have more deaths from Covid-19 than they have murders in a full year. Can you imagine the uproar that a thousand killings in six weeks would produce? Yet people want to downplay the Covid-19 toll by comparing it to the flu. Doesn't wash for me.
87 Posted 21/04/2020 at 02:53:47
Paragraph by paragraph:
1. Faucci did acknowledge just that. I'll find a [reputable] reference and post it.
2. Florida is not 6 weeks behind the curve. In fact, new cases have started to decrease. We're now near where we were on April 5th.
3. Oregon has 72 deaths. Kansas total is 100. I'd classify both as low-risk areas and question whether or not either state needed to shut down their economies, as I'm sure the flu killed more in each state respectively, among other nasties that kill people. But... I think 764 is low in Florida, so again it's a matter of what you'd define as a high number and that's relative.
4. A better plan involves one that doesn't shut down business and reacts in a manner more appropriate with the fatality numbers. Your mileage may vary.
5. "The former were going to happen anyway" argument – virual infections (Covid-19 or name any other) kill millions. It's as sure as death and taxes – and no, I'm not making a pun. Virus deaths are going to happen. To say Covid-19 wasn't going to happen is ignoring the fact that viruses, as a whole, will result in fatalities. Famine could be avoided, people die of it, it's going to happen. It's an imperfect world, fraught with sickness, poverty, pestilence, etc.
6. Covid-19 causing more deaths than homicide here in Florida? Probably because 1.97 million of us have concealed carry permits. An armed society is a polite society.
I do think, in the interest of olive branches, if you and I sat down in a room with our differing opinions, we could find common ground and have a plan for our country that would appease 90% of the population. Unlike our polarized leadership and culture presently.
88 Posted 21/04/2020 at 04:30:02
1. Good luck. You won't. He never said it.
2. I'm sorry to say Florida had 89 more Covid-19 deaths today. That pace is rising, not slowing. The new-case reporting is dependent on confirmed tests, on which – again – Florida is very slow.
3. Believe me when I tell you that Oregon was an extremely high-risk state based on Portland being such a dynamic travel city (like San Francisco and Seattle) and the tight proximity of smaller cities, Salem, Corvallis and Eugene. It was Oregon's instantaneous response – not Kansas-like geography or demographics – that prevented tragedy. I know, I live here.
4. So far, shutting down business has proved to be the better plan than not shutting down. Those have been the only two choices presented. Nobody has offered a third as far as I know.
5. If you're going to debate, my friend, don't make up what the other fella said. I did not say it wouldn't have happened. I said it wouldn't have killed so many people. The US outbreak began the same day as South Korea's, January 20. SK's elected leader reacted instantly. Ours choked, froze like a rabbit in headlights for 2 months. South Korea (a far more densely packed country), has had 11,000 cases and 237 deaths, 5 per million population. The US is headed for a million cases and 50,000 deaths, 128 per million population, which is a disgrace. The pandemic was gonna happen here. Most of the deaths didn't have to. (And SK didn't even have to shut down!)
6. "An armed society is a polite society." Puh-leeeze. There is zero statistical connection between concealed carry rates and homicide rates. Alabama is #1 in concealed carry, and #6 in homicide rate. Indiana is #2 and #12 respectively. #3 carry South Dakota is has the lowest murder rate in America. Florida, which has the most concealed carry permits at over two million, actually has a higher murder rate than tightly-restricted California. No connection established.
Love you too.
89 Posted 21/04/2020 at 05:00:53
Some businesses work on a monthly financial cycle, but have to deal with businesses that work on a 3-month financial cycle. There are plenty of 'no cash left at the of the month / quarter' chickens yet to come home to roost.
90 Posted 21/04/2020 at 07:12:33
"the numbers here are still less than influenza and in some parts of our country the numbers are minuscule." I read that 50,000 people had died from 'flu in US BEFORE this pandemic hit there (CDC figures).
And in UK just 2 years ago, 54,000 people died from 'flu and cold in a 4-month period.
We're still a long way from those figures yet.
91 Posted 21/04/2020 at 07:18:38
Regarding a vaccine being the solution:
92 Posted 21/04/2020 at 07:21:32
Relaxing the impositions and isolation has raised the following questions: Is a certain number of deaths acceptable and, if that number is exceeded, how difficult might it be to get people to return to isolation?
For me, restrictions must remain until an effective vaccine is found and produced in the numbers required. Business must find a way to work in this environment, be that from home or online ordering for delivery, and "essential" work and requirements must be better defined.
93 Posted 21/04/2020 at 07:21:44
I can do better than Branson, I haven't paid tax in UK for 34 years, because, like him, I don't live in UK and don't have any income derived from the UK.
94 Posted 21/04/2020 at 08:46:21
Coronavirus: Liverpool v Atletico Madrid virus link an 'interesting hypothesis'
95 Posted 21/04/2020 at 09:30:51
No mention in it of the role that Liverpool (Klopp - "it was a criminal act for the game to go ahead") and/or Atletico could and should have played in having the game cancelled. Just days before, Getafe had refused to play at Inter due to health concerns so it could have been stopped by either one of the participants thinking of the greater good, rather than of their own ambitions/income streams. Klopp has now actually admitted to having had concerns days before the game.
Also, no mention of the shabby behaviour of our neighbours in refusing refunds to nearly 300 Atletico fans who decided not to travel due to their own concerns about spreading the virus. Those fans were more concerned about others than about the game.
Once again the Red Shite are shamed by their actions, if not named by their friends in the media.
96 Posted 21/04/2020 at 09:55:15
It's easy for Klopp to come out weeks later and say he had “concerns” because all the world and his wife can see what a shameful decision it was to play the game. They got their just desserts anyway.
97 Posted 21/04/2020 at 10:01:28
When your wife comes through this episode in her life, thinking positive, she will have some harrowing moments of this virus to look back on, she will also have some wonderful moments as well, like earlier this morning on TV a young man, a Down's syndrome patient, was released from hospital after recovering from the virus. At one period, he was given 24 hours to live, and to see the nurses and doctors lining up and giving him a guard of honour out of the hospital was truly a marvellous sight to see. It might not be much of a consolation at the moment Jay, but in the future such moments will provide a lot of joy for your wife and thousands of medical staff all over the world.
Again Jay, May God bless and look after Angels like your wife. Very best wishes for the future.
98 Posted 21/04/2020 at 10:29:37
The point I was trying to make was that, reading that article, you'd think that only the government, medical people etc bear any responsibility – it ignores the fact that the clubs themselves could (as Getafe (a Madrid based club) had done) could have taken a lead. Always the victims though!
99 Posted 21/04/2020 at 10:33:07
ONS have just released the UK mortality stats for the week ending 10 April, for total deaths, and Covid-19 deaths. As ‘a useful comparison', the 2020 stats for flu deaths as well as a 5 year average for flu deaths are also shown. This is broken down by week over a 15-week period. The 5-year average trend tracks a bit higher than the 2020 trend, presumably influenced by the figures you quote for 2 years ago.
Bearing in mind that there is an 11-day time lag in their stats, and the figures haven't gone down in that time, the graph is alarming from any point of view. This ain't flu, mate.
It also shows that 16% of Covid-19 deaths took place outside hospital, a big increase over the previous week, and accounted for over a third of total deaths up from 21% the previous previous week. Neither of these are likely to reduce in next week's figures, I suspect.
100 Posted 21/04/2020 at 10:49:25
I don't know how Herr Klopp viewed the situation at the time and perhaps he did harbour doubts in private, but the club and many of its fans were so desperate to play that game and the Goodison derby, I doubt health issues were of much importance that particular week.
Is Liverpool vs Atletico Madrid cancelled? Latest ahead of Champions League clash at Anfield
ByJoshua Peck 08:13, 11 March 2020
Liverpool are confident their Champions League second leg with Atletico Madrid will go ahead tonight as planned.
There had been fears that the clash could be postponed due to the spread of coronavirus with Arsenal's Premier League trip to Manchester City on Wednesday having been called off.
Liverpool host Atletico in the second leg having lost 1-0 in Madrid last month thanks to an early goal from Saul Niguez.
And while a number of matches across Europe have been called off or will be played behind closed doors, Anfield is preparing for Wednesday night's match as normal.
The Reds issued a statement on their official website on Tuesday night, giving guidelines ahead of the Champions League clash.
Their statement read: “Liverpool Football Club continues to monitor and implement the government's advice on the coronavirus outbreak and ahead of our Champions League match against Atletico Madrid on Wednesday evening, we are reminding everyone attending the game of good hygiene practices.
Wolves players on coronavirus lockdown for Europa League clash vs Olympiakos
“There will be hand sanitisers and/or antibacterial handwash in all the washrooms at Anfield as well as posters reinforcing the official medical advice for everyone to take personal responsibility for excellent personal hygiene.
“We are also taking matchday precautionary measures and players will continue to avoid handshakes prior to kick-off. UEFA will continue to use mascots for this game but they will line up to welcome the players onto the pitch and avoid any direct contact.
“Any supporter displaying symptoms that are consistent with coronavirus should ensure they familiarise themselves with the chief medical officer's advice on self-isolation.
“We will continue to take the best advice from the relevant authorities and will update supporters with any further developments.”
Paris St-Germain's Champions League match against Borussia Dortmund on Wednesday will be closed to fans, as will Barcelona's clash with Napoli next week at the Nou Camp.
101 Posted 21/04/2020 at 11:02:51
South Korea didn't go into full lockdown but are still testing and tracing and seem to be managing better than most countries. Again Germany, another country carrying out massive testing and tracing, and much lower death rates than smaller countries in Europe.
I watch the daily briefings from Downing Street, and all we have heard from the politicians is we follow the scientific and medical advice. So how come that our medical and scientific advice seem to be at odds with what they are doing in countries that seem to be containing the virus much better than we are?
Only yesterday, a journalist asked about Germany, and the Medical Officer said we are in constant touch with our colleagues all over Europe and take notice of what they are doing. Our Health Secretary said just over 2 weeks ago we will be testing 100,000 per day by the end of April, so far the most we have tested in 1 day is just over 20,000. So I hope at today's briefing somebody asks with only 9 days left of the month how the hell are we going to see 100,000 people being tested?
I don't know how some of these politicians sleep at night, every day at the briefings they acknowledge our doctors and nurses and care workers need better protection. But everyday we hear more and more frontline NHS staff complain about shortages of PPE, yet there are a number of British companies who have said they have been in touch with the government saying they can produce PPE and have heard nothing back.
102 Posted 21/04/2020 at 11:03:45
I think Klopp was against it going ahead, according to Carlo Ancelotti who was reported as saying as much, not long after the match. Apparently they'd had a conversation about it, or so it was reported.
103 Posted 21/04/2020 at 11:04:54
Klopp's comments were made in a conversation he had with Carlo Ancelotti, details of which our manager subsequently made public.
104 Posted 21/04/2020 at 11:08:29
I've learned quite a lot on this thread. The first thing I learned is that your Mrs has more raw courage than I do.
I Know two young girls over here (one a niece and the other a close mate's daughter) who do very similar stints. They're kind, gentle, caring and beautiful... But I knew all that before this pandemic; what I hadn't fully appreciated before now, was just how brave they have to be too.
It's one thing putting your own life at risk... but knowing you risk taking this killer home to your own loved ones is bravery on a level I have not seen before.
A new respect has developed, and not just for the front line workers. The bin men, the posties, the bus drivers, the shelf stackers... The list goes on.
It would be very easy to forget everything these people have done for us when this is all over. To fall back into old habits, but we must not let that happen. It's easy to contribute towards NHS appeals now, but what about next year?
As a society and as individuals, we really do need to promise ourselves not to take them for granted ever again. We cannot allow our gratitude and respect to slip. One thing we have all learned is that we are fucked without them.
105 Posted 21/04/2020 at 11:08:41
106 Posted 21/04/2020 at 11:24:46
We all know it's not going to be business as usual, but the fact that football leagues right across the continent have refused to abandon their seasons shows me that the clubs need the money so badly, or it might be business finished for good in some cases!!
107 Posted 21/04/2020 at 11:45:07
Klopp has since admitted that the tension surrounding the virus at the time affected his preparation for the game.
And Ancelotti has now revealed the extent of Klopp's anger that a continental game involving teams from the two nations could have been allowed to take place under the circumstances – especially with a full stadium of supporters.
He told Corriere Dello Sport: “I heard from Klopp the other day, he told me that going ahead with the game in those conditions was a criminal act, I think he was right.”
108 Posted 21/04/2020 at 11:46:29
The people you list as heroes are, by and large, the people who are lower paid, were treated badly for 10 years by this government, undervalued by them, demonised by much of our wonderful press, and treated basically as a cost and a drain on resources instead of the National asset that all can now see and value. Even Boris!
Private good, public bad. The price of everything and the value of nothing.
109 Posted 21/04/2020 at 12:03:48
A bit ago, you were wondering what this might have looked like if we hadn't had a lockdown.
Try this, mate. Research showed that, prior to lockdown, the transmission rate was running at about 3.5 people infected by one person with the virus. That dropped to a rate of 0.85 people infected at lockdown and has held at that rate pretty constantly. So it did precisely what it was meant to do effectively.
So roughly a 4:1 ratio. Simplistically then we may have had an infection rated 4 times higher had we done nothing, with a higher rate of mortality. Definitely not a scientific analysis by any means, but it may give some kind of perspective.
In any case, it would probably have been much higher, I think we can all agree. Also, it suggests that a premature wind-down might cause a few issues.
The figures come from Imperial College and also Covid-19 symptom tracker App.
110 Posted 21/04/2020 at 12:24:50
When this is over, never again will a political party be ever allowed to underfund the NHS like this government has done for 10 years or more. Obviously this government will come under severe scrutiny when this is over; even the right-wing Conservative press are not happy with the way this government have handled the crisis.
To try and mitigate the avalanche of criticism that will come their way, I fully expect them to make one-off bonus payments to all NHS workers, and will probably urge the employers of the critical workers to do the same. I also expect that all NHS staff will immediately be put on a level that is above the level of the living wage as it is now.
I just hope the British public never ever forget the sacrifices these front-line NHS workers and carers have done, and I hope that this government don't try and take credit for organising a national NHS day were all the money raised goes to our wonderful NHS.
I can only wonder the sort of headlines and the tone of questions that would have happened had Corbyn been voted in, no easy ride like this government is getting. And I was not a fan of Corbyn. When all the fatalities from care homes and people dying at home are added to the total, we may not be able to claim a better death rate than Italy or Spain.
111 Posted 21/04/2020 at 12:34:31
112 Posted 21/04/2020 at 12:52:28
I don't recall Labour governments putting nurses on £50k per year either.
Lessons will be learned from this but I think it's pretty low to play party politics in the middle of this disaster.
113 Posted 21/04/2020 at 12:57:38
St Helens 18th
I don't suppose there could be any possibility that the high figures for this region could have had anything to do with the Atletico Madrid game going ahead?
Silly me... the medical advisor told us yesterday that the medical advice at the time was mass gatherings didn't have an impact on the numbers contracting the virus. How anybody can decide 1 day mass gatherings are okay... and, a few days later ban, them.
114 Posted 21/04/2020 at 12:59:09
We have to examine ourselves as a society.
I'm just reading now that more PPE is being exported out of the country than we can actually bring in. That sort of logistical fuckwittery should be a cause of shame to all of us.
How the did we, as a society, allow these posturing buffoons to stroll into government unopposed? Their policies could only ever have prevailed in an environment of total apathy. We as a nation delivered it to them in spades.
115 Posted 21/04/2020 at 13:05:03
Who said anything about the labour government putting nurses on £50,000 a year? If you want to completely exonerate a government who have allowed our front line NHS workers to operate without the proper PPE, then fine. I suggest you go and look how many doctors and nurses were employed in the NHS when Labour were last in power and how many are employed there now.
The way every government deals with the pandemic is a political decision, some have obviously dealt with it far better than others. But hey, let's not critisize the government in their total mis-handling of this crisis.
116 Posted 21/04/2020 at 13:12:50
117 Posted 21/04/2020 at 13:22:35
I'm a self-employed trucker and was being bullied by the hover / HMRC that by April 6th I was not allowed to carry on trading unless I took a massive weekly pay cut and went PAYE. Now, all of a sudden, I wear my undies on the outside and I'm a superman (a key worker). They soon scrapped that plan for a year. Or probably for good because of this impending new recession.
Coyb, all hail null and void. 🕺😆
118 Posted 21/04/2020 at 13:59:30
Yes, I read that quite recently, although it's an old article. I've been a fan of Polly Toynbee for years. She's just done a piece about Johnson, yesterday I think.
She's not a fan!
119 Posted 21/04/2020 at 14:30:36
So the person who is 'funny' on telly, wins an election by shouting empty slogans. He now leads a govt where he appoints more people who shout empty slogans And guess what? They're slow, indecisive and can't make coherent policy. Who'd have thought it?
Anyone who thinks, asks questions, put forward alternatives is sacked, demonised, or called a 'lefty, remoaner, traitor, metropolitan elite'. On Twitter I often get called a 'lefty Jock Bastard, despite my profile having the words Scouser and Everton FC.
I don't support any political party, I run my own business, I'm still trading, not furloughing. I don't clap the NHS, but I don't vote for the party that underfunds it and laughs about it for ideological reasons.
England voted for Brexit, without thinking about how it was going to get done. England voted Conservative, because they shouted about how they were going to get things done. Good luck to England. Up here, we voted overwhelmingly for neither of them, but we're stuck with both. Democracy, innit?
By the way, if you want a laugh, check out Janey Godley on Twitter. She turns Nicola Sturgeon's speeches into that of a sweaty Glaswegian!
120 Posted 21/04/2020 at 14:35:25
Doesn't have to do much then, Paul? 😂
121 Posted 21/04/2020 at 14:42:22
122 Posted 21/04/2020 at 14:47:16
I'm more scared of the second wave, I'm also aware that things have got to keep moving, but how is this really possible if we haven't got the facilities or the resources to make this possible by constantly testing people?
Opening up too early is even worse than shutting down too late, and that's my worry right now, especially considering that two wrongs don't make a right, and this country has got very little right since they decided to vote for Brexit, imho.
123 Posted 21/04/2020 at 14:51:24
124 Posted 21/04/2020 at 15:17:18
I found two quotes attributed to Fauci. One is from Focus on the Family, which I'm sure you'll discount, and another from Just the News, which again I'm sure you'll discount. I'm trying to find where he said it on Good Morning America, but all I can find is he did say the numbers were projected to be between 100,000 and 200,000, were adjusted downwards to 60,000, and attributed that adjustment to the mitigation procedures that were put in place - not "overestimating". He did say this interestingly:
Dr. Anthony Fauci, meanwhile, reportedly said during a recent meeting that disease models "dont tell you anything. You cant really rely upon models." Fauci has elsewhere indicated a preference for overestimating the possible effect of the coronavirus pandemic in the United States, telling reporters in March: "I think we should be overly aggressive and get criticized for overreacting."
Fauci has elsewhere indicated a preference for overestimating the possible effect of the coronavirus pandemic in the United States, telling reporters in March: "I think we should be overly aggressive and get criticized for overreacting."
Here's the salient point while we shadow box back and forth.
If South Korea didn't have to shut down, and you're lauding how South Korea approached the outbreak, then let's do exactly what South Korea did. Keep people safe while not completely shutting down the economy and forcing 22 million (and climbing) people to lose their jobs.
What about the manager of the restaurant who makes $50,000 a year, has two kids, and now doesn't have a paycheck?
What about the person who runs their own barber shop / salon who has to fold their business because there's been zero revenue the last month?
What if one of the two above examples have a condition which requires medication?
What about the economic affect of a stimulus bill that raises our national debt to nearly 29 TRILLION dollars at the end of all this by most projections? It now sits at 22.7 Trillion. That's a hell of a lot of money leveraged against an economy teetering on free-fall.
While everyone is praising doctors and nurses (and they should), people are going flat broke. The next wave of this is going to be economic, and for those people singularly focused on the present, I'd say let's revisit this when the economy is in serious trouble and can't have an injection of hot checks thrown at it. Let's see if we think shutting down and creating 22 million people unemployed was the right course.
Tell me more about South Korea when you have the time and chance, because I have a feeling we're going to wish we'd have not done what we've done to the economy when this is all done and dusted.
Finally, yes the death toll here in my state increased but I saw 59 deaths, not 89? Either way, but not discounting the human toll, I show 823 total deaths now in FL.
From the CDC, 2017 numbers in FL:
46,440 deaths from heart attacks
45,131 deaths from cancer
13.059 deaths from accidents
823 deaths presently from CV19.
Based on those numbers we must, must address our response vs. the effect it has economically. A risk-reward assessment has to take place.
South Korea Mike! Tell me about South Korea!
125 Posted 21/04/2020 at 15:29:47
I think it's fitting, as an insight to the many millions of essential workers working hard to keep us safe, to give you a brief description of my wife's daily routine.
She gets up at 5.30am and stringently prepares before leaving the house with an industrial scrub down. She is so concerned with transmission that she completely changes her wardrobe every day.
The cell phone is wiped down with alcohol. She used to then wrap it in clingfilm, but has now bought 3 waterproof and sealable PVC cell phone holders in which to protect it so she doesn't touch it directly. At the end of each day, the holder gets a thorough scrub down in hot water and soap and is substituted with one of the other holders.
She uses one pair of flip-flops inside the house. Another pair await at the front door which she changes into before walking to the car. These flip-flops are then substituted inside the car for yet another pair.
On arrival at work, the car flip-flops are then changed for closed work shoes. Already masked and armed with alco-gel spray, inside the hospital she takes a minimum of 30 minutes to 'dress' for work. Some of the PPE she has bought herself because the hospital doesn't provide it.
A 'normal' day is 12 hours long. She frequently works 15 hour shifts. She has done 24 hour shifts. She takes in her own food as neither the hospital canteen nor the many nearby restaurants are open or functioning.
I in the meantime, other than an early morning 15-20 (masked) walk with the mutt, remain at home. Like the missus, I've been trained to completely change outdoor clothes and shoes on my return. Shoes are removed and not worn in the house. The soles are washed down with alcohol. The mutt's paws get a similar treatment. The clothes are removed, placed in a plastic bag and hung in the service area to use exclusively for outdoor excursions.
Each day I wipe down ALL door and drawer handles, plugs, cables, switches and buttons typically touched every day (like the fridge, microwave or oven) with alcohol. My own cell phone, PC keyboard, mouse and work area gets the same treatment.
Ahead of the missus returning home, I get the dinner on the go and prepare her lunch for the next day. On arrival, I open the garage door for her and retreat. She remains in the car for 10 minutes removing and changing protective gear. There is no embracing or touching at all as she walks through the house as rapidly as possible to remove all that day's clothing and HAND WASH everything, before again taking an industrial scrub. This protocol usually puts another hour on her already long day.
She eats using her own marked cutlery, plates, cups and glasses. If she is lucky, on a good night, she may get 5 hours sleep before it starts all over again.
She doesn't like to recount what she has lived through during the day. Suffice to say that today on the national morning news, our state was the lead news item. Hospital beds were at 97% occupancy rates last night. They are now full.
There were harrowing scenes of a desperate daughter at the doors of a public hospital, her mother collapsed on the floor struggling to breathe. The hospital simply would not, could not, open the doors to them. There were images of corpses in body bags laying on the floor in a ward with barely live patients on ventilators alongside them.
The funeral services are so overrun that another story showed how a favela family had wrapped the corpse of the family matriarch in bin liners and stored her in a large cardboard box, awaiting collection. She died 3 days ago. Six people live in the 2-roomed house, from a 3-year-old to a 40-something father.
As you can well imagine, my wife, like all those in the frontline, is phsically, emotionally and mentally fatigued by all this. This in turn makes her even more vulnerable to catching something, never mind the elevated exposure she risks daily.
Possibly the biggest deal in all this for her is how she cannot see or embrace her 95-year-old father or 90-year-old mother. Family is B-I-G in Brazil. Social distancing is totally alien to this culture. Bear hugs, kisses, handshakes, walking hand-in-hand, or with arms drapped around the shoulders or waist, are the norm.
A particularly endearing practice which I love about Brazil is the immense respect shown to parents and elder family members by their children or younger family members. On greeting the younger family member raises their hands, palms out, saying 'abençoe' mum/dad/aunt/uncle - 'bless you mum/dad' - before kissing the back of the other's hand, who returns the same to you, usually with the words 'já te abençoei' - 'I already blessed you [in my prayers]'.
Be appreciative of ALL essential workers - not just health workers - doing the grunge work to combat this chaos.
It could be one of them that ultimately helps save your life, or that of a lover one, in the coming weeks or months.
126 Posted 21/04/2020 at 15:35:08
127 Posted 21/04/2020 at 15:36:02
Jamie - economies recover, dead people don't
128 Posted 21/04/2020 at 15:45:54
You paint a grim picture there, attritional and humbling. Dedication, service, duty, discipline -more than a job, a calling. And vulnerable. And knowing it.
Tough for you but unbelievably demanding on your wife, physically, mentally and emotionally, as you say.
I hope to God you all keep safe and healthy, and at the other side of this some form of normality can be achieved.
Moved to tears here mate.I dont really have the words.
129 Posted 21/04/2020 at 15:52:08
Modelling is by its very nature an inexact science, but it is the only method I am aware of that gives some semblence of the impact on society of any particular illness.
Unless there is some secret plan involving every major government in the world to deliberately sabotage their own economies I can't see what there is to be gained by them taking the drastic action they have, given the scientific evidence that was set before them. Perhaps, it's the beginning of a new totalatarian world order or more likely the various governments have responded because they were unwilling to have the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people on their CVs.
130 Posted 21/04/2020 at 15:56:46
Polite society? Looks like a thick as mince, dead from the neck up society to me.
131 Posted 21/04/2020 at 15:59:34
How's your lad and his pubs doing?
My sister and her pub I told you about are still in lockdown. My suggestion to do takeaways/home deliveries was a non-starter due to legislation and hygiene restrictions apparently.
In the meantime, keep on dreamin'...
'Blue skies, nuthin' but blue skies'.
132 Posted 21/04/2020 at 16:04:18
133 Posted 21/04/2020 at 16:04:56
South Korea havent got a prime minister called Boris, going around shaking everyones hand, something that nearly killed him.
I dont know that much about politics Paul T, but I questioned did we have the resources because our health minister, said we would be testing 100.000 people a day by the end of this month, and we are fucking miles away from being able to do this?
Its not because hes not working hard enough though, because when somebody questioned if politicians, should relinquish some of their salaries, the man disagreed quite vehemently, but did say that what they all could do, was work even harder!
I put most things back to football in this life, and although we all love hard, it doesnt get you far, when you havent got the talent, to back up your work rate, and this Matt Hancock reminds me of the footballers, who get interviewed after a bad defeat, telling everyone how they are going to put things right in the next game, and we all know how tired we were of this!
134 Posted 21/04/2020 at 16:12:37
Tony, when Hancock committed to 100,000 tests a day, I made a mental note of 30th April, when Matt Hancock will either be the first ministerial sacrificial lamb, or they will plumb new depths in blaming others for their own mistakes.
More chance of knitting fog than this lot doing 100,000 tests a day.
135 Posted 21/04/2020 at 16:17:04
Can I just say that your post made the whole business of the sacrifice front line workers are making a whole lot more realistic, immediate and a bloody sight less abstract. I think thats what got to me.
Andys pubs are doing ok thanks. Theyre operating as an off licence, for a couple of hours 3 times a week. One allowed in at a time, card payment only. Nothing like the same turnover, but good enough to more than cover their costs. All 3 pubs are on the furlough system which finally went live yesterday, so that means that the cost of wages for the team will now be met by the government whereas theyve been paying it the last few weeks.
Theyve also been doing home deliveries for the self isolating. Groceries too on request.
I asked him yesterday had he learned any lessons. He said that first of all his team are brilliant. They are, Ive met them and a nicer more hardworking bunch you couldnt wish to meet.
The second lesson was he now appreciated what I meant when I told him that they were selling a lot more than beer. The customers have really rallied round and some of the comments have been lovely. Theyd become a social hub for many people and theyre supporting the pubs wonderfully.
The third lesson is that the local microbreweries and the pubs are supporting each other. All small businesses pulling together.
A lot to like there I think.
136 Posted 21/04/2020 at 16:20:31
Jay , best wishes and good luck to your and your wife, I am awestruck and have nothing but admiration for the work all health and care workers are doing . I sincerely hope she gets the necessary PPE kit and you both stay safe.
137 Posted 21/04/2020 at 16:41:52
Ive typed several comments, retracted and retyped because well, I value many opinions on here and trying find the right line of argument in a difficult time is impossible.
This is what I think is re SK.
South Korea was a special case. It had an outbreak of SARS some time ago, they got their approach wrong, internally were criticized fiercely for it. They put in place an infrastructure of testing that meant lightning wouldnt strike twice. They we agile, nimble and ready to adapt should something similar happen again.
They were able to accurately assess where the breakouts were through mass testing and curtail the spread. Its a unique scenario.
Both the UK & US dont have that built in agility to pivot to mass testing. At the moment every time I step outside its a gamble regarding COVID19.
The other things that have been used as a comparison we have data for, you have choices to make, they are known risks. Heart attacks, being hit by a car etc. We have guidelines to help us stay healthy and be safe around vehicles.
Every time you step outside, you have no idea whether you are spreading it or getting it. You have no idea how what percentage of the population have it. Surely until we know that figure and that rates of transmission are below 1.0 would you consider opening back up.
Its the responsibility of a government to stop that happening not perpetuate it!
Its desperate round here and the last thing others need to see are pictures of others states opening up, its sets a terrible example and encourages people in stricken areas to think its okay to start going out. If other states think only of themselves, its hard not to see the chickens come home to roost if it befalls them, then why would you expect solidarity in return?
I fully understand people do also need to do whats essential for them, and I dont know everyones personal circumstances. My view is a more joined up approach will help in the long run, being the ‘United States in name only will only encourage rancor further down the line.
I hope everyone stays healthy, on a lighter note my mixology skills are now above average! 🍸🍹
138 Posted 21/04/2020 at 16:45:42
An excellent post which I wholeheartedly agree with.
There will have to be an adjustment post Covid 19 and some industries will gain and others will suffer but there is pent up desire to get out and make the world normal again. The only major change I foresee is taxes will have to go up to cover all the governments shoring up of the economy and helping people but I don't see the doom that a few people are predicting in fact quite the reverse, apart from the tragic loss of life and stress that this pandemic has caused there are a lot of positives.
New opportunities for manufacturing will open up especially in the light of realising we don't have to rely on China as much.
The ozone layer has improved now that cars and planes have been grounded.
Gas (Petrol) hasnt been this cheap for a long time.
Inventories that have been depleted will have to be restocked.
Communities and sports followers will be desperate to start going to events again.
The civil wars and terrorism and gang warfare have been reduced to a minimum.
Welcome to a better more together world.
139 Posted 21/04/2020 at 16:45:54
Indeed there is Chris.
And very astute of you to tell him that he was selling a lot more than beer.
Whisper it, but what will help communities bounce back from this is...the community itself.
This is just one small example of how localised socialism, if you like, is rallying around and helping the collective, rather than a single individual milking the rest without putting something back.
A loyal clientele. Even rivals and competitors in the same niche working together and supporting each other. I fancy your lad and his business will come out of this very strongly once things normalise.
As Paul Tran has highlighted in this thread, I hope for your sakes over there that the British electorate are more reflective in just what they've done (or failed to do) in recent years and maybe, just maybe, study, learn and think a bit more deeply than be so easily taken in by throwaway 3-word soundbites.
Wish me the same for Brazil under our own Bozo!
140 Posted 21/04/2020 at 17:00:12
We all want to get back to something approaching normality but this is a point where we can start afresh and change things for the better, despite the politicians. This is a chance for communities to get together and set our agenda, rather than putting our blind trust in known liars and incompetents.
141 Posted 21/04/2020 at 17:05:43
142 Posted 21/04/2020 at 17:08:27
I hope youre right mate. I dont know what that is running your country, but hes just sacked the health minister hasnt he, for contradicting his bizarre statements?
Weve got the same sort of thing here but in a colder more snooty English way. A one party state in all but name, where a gang of upper class vandals have cut and burned the public sector to the point of destitution, victimised benefit claimants as scroungers and parasites, when 60%of them are in full time employment, and done the same with immigrants only for them to be at the front of the NHS sacrifices, and deaths. Well over 100 now dead on that frontline, whilst many millions of pounds worth of NHS contracts being privatised to the likes of Branson, who whiles away his time in the sunshine suing the NHS and looks to get hand outs. All in the name of free market economics.
In the meantime, said vandals have been voted in three times in 10 years. Who voted for them? This last time an awful lot of working class voters.
Yeah, Corbyn was useless as a leader but surely people can see beyond that to the policies. Michael Foot was also a useless leader but twice the intellect of Corbyn and an Evertonian.Both were vilified and misrepresented by the press and on social media, and people bought it.
So not really holding my breath on any change here. Frankie Boyle, said that he didnt think that people who voted for Brexit were thick. He said they voted that way because they didnt like Pakistani immigrants.
But good luck and good heath to you and your brave wife Jay
143 Posted 21/04/2020 at 17:27:04
Extraordinary post, one of the most powerful I've ever read here.
And I'd venture to guess that even in that remarkable accounting, you've left out one element of your lives that must pervade all the others -- the fear. It must be terrifying for both of you when she pulls out of the driveway every day. The risks and sacrifices of frontline health workers in treating this pestilence will never be fully understood and appreciated by most of the rest of us.
All best wishes from my family to yours.
144 Posted 21/04/2020 at 17:53:49
145 Posted 21/04/2020 at 18:27:57
The success of this “philosophy” has been the ending, in economic grouping terms, of the old class system. I would suggest we now have a society more or less divided into haves and have nots... maybe 80:20... the ratio is not that important.
How did this come about?
Basically, the embracing of Chicago School dogma as espoused by Thatcher and Keith Joseph. A low-tax, low-spend economy... 'rolling back the frontiers of the state' as they used to put it.
Income tax was 33% in 1975. Basic rate today is 20%. People have been seduced by a few extra bob in their pockets. The down-side, of course, has been the decimation of our public services. Notice how private medicine and education have expanded in the last 30 years, for those who chose to purchase it.
The mantra being...don't rely on the state. Remember Kinnock warning people not to be poor or old or sick? So now it's coming home to roost. People have enjoyed greater spending power over the last few decades but now they are faced with public services that are stretched to the limit with little spare capacity.
When this is over, will people look back to the days of the inception of the welfare state and regenerate the spirit of those days? Or will it be back to the “no such thing as society” horse shit?
I've never voted Tory in my life and never will. I've always been a union man. I class myself as a “have” in financial terms... ie, cash in my back pocket. But what the feck is it worth if all the certainties that we grew up with are laid waste?
Here endeth my sermon. Stay safe, amigos.
146 Posted 21/04/2020 at 18:31:25
The other major voting determinant now seems to be age.
147 Posted 21/04/2020 at 18:37:28
148 Posted 21/04/2020 at 18:40:39
I hope those who have fought this fight on the frontline will be better treated and rewarded afterwards than they were before.
149 Posted 21/04/2020 at 18:50:28
Great idea mate,
Love One Another by the Youngbloods
Corina Corina by Taj Mahal and Keb Mo'
Runaway by The Travelling Wilburys
Splendid Isolation by Warren Zevon
Just had a listen, uplifting as was the long vodka and lime.
150 Posted 21/04/2020 at 19:05:50
151 Posted 21/04/2020 at 19:16:20
Iris Dement, I don't really know.
152 Posted 21/04/2020 at 19:22:06
I have sat here for some time trying to put into words how I felt when I read your post. It made me truly understand what healthcare workers and their loved ones must go through everyday in order to protect people they don't even know. I have no idea how they and their families do it.
All those complaining about the inconvenience of lockdown rules should be made to read your post.
All my best wishes that you both stay well.
153 Posted 21/04/2020 at 19:40:39
154 Posted 21/04/2020 at 19:52:01
OK, South Korea. (Apologies in advance to those bored shitless by the subject... go ahead and scroll past, it won't hurt my feelings.) The short answer is we can't do NOW what South Korea did, but we could have and should have at the same time they did.
As John P says, SK's bungled response to the 2003 SARS epidemic triggered them to put a plan in place for the next pandemic (Germany, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, New Zealand did the same). SK assembled an agency, an infrastructure, a resource stockpile and a plan that was based on 1) screening for symptoms, 2) isolating the patient, 3) immediate testing, and 4) contact tracing to reach everyone exposed to that patient. They even ran simulations.
It worked. By reacting as soon as the first case was confirmed Jan. 20 (same day as the first US case), SK got on top of their outbreak, identifying and isolating sick people so quickly that they could keep their economy open (although they closed their schools). And this is key -- it didn't require mass obedience. They've only had to test about 1% of their population to pull it off. If you respond quickly enough, testing only the suspicious cases and their contacts is sufficient.
The US story is more complex. We similarly bungled the swine flu outbreak in 2009, but then led the highly successful international effort to knock down the Ebola outbreak in 2014. President Obama then had Susan Rice establish the National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense. The program developed detailed plans and extensive resources for instant responses to both pandemics and biological attacks.
When Trump came in, he replaced the original program chief with retired Navy Adm. Tim Ziemer, one of the most qualified people in the world to do the job -- he was an expert on the worldwide response to malaria and other pandemic-prone diseases. He expanded the program's capability to cooperate with other countries on response. But in 2018, Trump fired his national security advisor H.R. McMaster, who had supported Adm. Ziemer's work, and replaced him with John Bolton, who promptly fired Ziemer and his entire team. End of preparedness. There was nobody left in the administration who knew how to execute the response plan, and Trump had no intention of responding anyway since he didn't see the virus as a threat.
Had the NSC program still been in place in January, we could have been able to react just as SK did on the same day, and it's very likely we would never have had to take shutdown measures. Three months after the outbreak, we too have finally tested 1% of our population, but of course it's far, far too late now that almost a million Americans already got the bug. At this point we'll never come anywhere close to sufficient testing.
Aren't you sorry you asked?
155 Posted 21/04/2020 at 20:05:40
"Run Runaway" by Slade
"Longest Time" by Billy Joel
"Warning" by Green Day
"Stay" (I like Jackson Browne's version)
"I Will Survive" by Gloria Gaynor
...and my current anthem, "Alone Again Naturally" by Gilbert O'Sullivan.
156 Posted 21/04/2020 at 20:06:42
157 Posted 21/04/2020 at 20:29:52
158 Posted 21/04/2020 at 20:53:37
I also like Stay by Jackson Browne with David Lindley. Great album too, Running on Empty. Cocaine!
Like Billy Joel. Didn't he do We didn't start the Fire, like a later version of American Pie?
I can understand you listening to Gilbert O'Sullivan, and I hope there's a happy ending to that soon.
I will listen to Green Day, who I don't really know, but my son likes them as does my 6-year-old grandson. He converted me to the Red Hot Chilli Peppers and Jack White, but he didn't have to try too hard. I converted him to Josh Ritter and James McMurtry.
I might give Gloria Gaynor a miss, Mike, but please keep enjoying it.
Better than that Covid-19 stuff.
John Prine, Hello In There.
Alan, I used to love Transatlantic Sessions on TV on a Friday night. Jerry Douglas, Alison Krauss, Ali Bain and a host of others. I will check out that track.
They did a Transatlantic Sessions Tour and I went to see them at The Empire in Liverpool. Jerry Douglas, Danny Thompson on bass, Sam Bush, absolutely bewildering musicianship.
Can I also mention the soundtrack of Oh Brother Where Art Thou? The beautiful harmonies of Emmy Lou, Alison Krauss and Gillian Welch.
Great stuff guys. Better than that Covid-19 stuff!
159 Posted 21/04/2020 at 21:03:13
All of your perspectives and opinions are appreciated. Mike, I'm never sorry to ask you a question as your responses always make my gray matter tick. Sir John, your measured approach is one I could learn from, but my personality simply doesn't jive with.
I'm done wearing the black hat. Subject dropped.
Jay Wood - brilliant. You and your wife be well.
Stay safe, wash your hands, UTFB, bring back the footy.
160 Posted 21/04/2020 at 21:10:47
Somebody needs to put out an album of just COVID-themed tunes.
Jamie, amen, and you and yours stay safe. I miss the footy just as much as you do. Wonder if we're ever gonna get a chance to resume our Sidibé argument.
161 Posted 21/04/2020 at 21:34:10
162 Posted 21/04/2020 at 21:58:41
163 Posted 21/04/2020 at 22:18:20
One of my all time favourite films. I loved the way Dave Rawlings pretended to sing like George Clooney!
A great flat picking guitarist. Check out Scarlet Town with Gillian Welch. It sounds like hes playing a lute.
165 Posted 21/04/2020 at 22:50:56
Secondly, why are these care facility residents not moved to hospitals? Here in Ireland two weeks ago, we had nine people die in one care facility in the midlands over one weekend. When the local hospital just 200 yards away was asked if they could take them, they refused, saying they would be better off staying where they are. Shameful.
My hope is that, when this is over, we should demand equal opportunity and access to health facilities. Health care in our hospitals should be available to all and should not depend on your financial status, age or circumstances.
Stay safe, everyone.
166 Posted 21/04/2020 at 23:26:36
Those outside of hospital may be certified as Covid-19 related but it's mainly subjective depending upon the GP's view. I have seen reports which suggest that hospitals had sent patients back to care homes but not sure if this actually happened or how many may have been involved.
It's not a scam by governments to hide the true number of fatalities – just an accepted practice – but I'm certain there will be questions asked as to whether it has been good practice.
The Office for National Statistics is the body which produces outside hospital fatality figures and they are about 10 to 14 days behind real-time events.
167 Posted 21/04/2020 at 23:36:20
I just hope that, when Covid-19 is history, governments world-wide reflect on what and who really matter in this world, way beyond market forces, Gross National Product and, in the UK's case, massive nuclear re-armament via Trident.
168 Posted 21/04/2020 at 23:54:19
169 Posted 22/04/2020 at 00:10:29
170 Posted 22/04/2020 at 00:46:52
If people weren't in lockdown they'd be flooding health care facilities for tests to check if they have the virus. The health care facilities couldn't cope and they don't have the test kits anyway. The same will be true if a vaccine is developed.
It really would highlight the massive failings of the governments in not having a plan. Of course current administrations will blame the previous one, and them the one before that, but people will only remember the current one failed. So they need to cover their arses 'cos they will get blamed whatever they do.
But in any case, I agree with you: the cure is worse than the disease as the saying goes.
171 Posted 22/04/2020 at 06:45:58
172 Posted 22/04/2020 at 10:15:43
Interesting information on South Korea and the States. The UK did have a plan, but it was largely forgotten about, during austerity.
173 Posted 22/04/2020 at 10:16:06
No doubt we will see you with the correct figures, this time next week, was his parting shot, but if we do, it will mean she is still in her job, in spite of the lies, in spite of the deception, (deceiving us on the numbers “of deaths” both in care homes and frontline NHS workers) and in spite of her just not being up to the job.
If she's still standing next week, it will only be because she's not the only person in the government that is totally out of their depth... how fucking scary this is.
174 Posted 22/04/2020 at 10:46:31
The FT has published figures that show the ‘true' death figure is 41,000. It has used the ONS figures and ‘removed' the delay in reporting. It says it has been collating the data and sorting the methodology for a good while now and has finally decided to publish.
Whether it is accurate or not, only time will tell, but I reckon it is closer to the truth than the more palliative figures trotted out routinely every evening.
The ONS figures yesterday showed the Care Home deaths went from 250 reported the previous week to over 1000 in the latest figures. And of course is about 2 weeks behind.
Reports of 75% of care workers unable to access virus tests, with 62-mile round trips also needed to get to testing centres.
There's more mate about PPE, but I'll not bang on, and scary is the right word, to be sure. It's what you get when a complacent government is put together to get Brexit sorted, and filled with true believers, not on the basis of competence and ability. Then the shit hits the fan.
175 Posted 22/04/2020 at 10:47:09
While I applaud anyone taking government ministers to task, but whenever I see Piers Morgan and think of all the things he has done in his career, he should be the very last person to be classed as a champion of the people.
Let's not forget this man was the editor of the Daily Mirror that run a wholely untrue story of British soldiers beating up Iraqi prisoners of war in the back of a wagon. This was the same man who was as guilty as anyone over using phone hacking, and there are still many questions left unanswered by the Levinson enquiry.
Also, this was a man who championed Trump for President; anyone is allowed to make mistakes, but Morgan makes it into an art form.
176 Posted 22/04/2020 at 11:03:32
He thinks he's some kind of Andrew Neil but he simply comes across as a loudmouth Bully. He completely let her off the hook by shouting over the top of her answers. Three times she told him she can't answer if he keeps shouting over the top of her and three times he fell into the trap and shouted over the top of her again. I for one would have been interested in what she had to say. We didn't hear it.
Morgan needs to take a look at Andrew Marr and realise that the interviews are not all about him. We already know the questions – he shouts them out often enough... but we have no clue what her detailed answers would have been.
177 Posted 22/04/2020 at 11:08:26
I think it's easy to criticise, and it's why I try and stay away from it as often as possible but it's different when it's resulting in way too many people dying prematurely. It's something which is totally unforgivable, so I'd better get back to some happy music quickly – definitely no Floyd today.
178 Posted 22/04/2020 at 11:23:26
I'm not a great fan Of Blair's either, but he gave a very reasoned and humble interview.
Whilst accepting the old Foot-and-Mouth crisis was not on the same scale as this one. He did have the good grace to say he was in trouble and realised he didn't have the people within his ranks capable of dealing with it. So he turned to others outside the government. Chiefly the military.
He was basically saying that very few politicians would have the logistical expertise to deal with many of the problems this government face. That they really need to go to people (like the military) who are qualified... Hope Boris and his boys were listening.
179 Posted 22/04/2020 at 11:47:48
I thought he didn't put the boot in today, Darren, because he's a Tory himself at heart, but he's definitely always been the type to say more away from the camera.
Blair, it's how he got on imo, and his shifty eyes had me thinking that he's probably invested in a couple of these major pharmaceutical companies right now?
180 Posted 22/04/2020 at 12:50:07
Football brain teaser for you all. Pick a world 11 of players that have played in your lifetime – so from 1970s onwards. No two players can be from the same country and no two players from the same club team either. It's not as easy as you think. 👍⚽️
181 Posted 22/04/2020 at 12:51:28
That's a very true and valid point for me. We spoke over here about flattening the curve of cases, or else the hospitals and care facilities would be over run.
Yesterday, I was talking to a very good friend about the situation, and he brought up a point I'd not heard, nor had considered. Here in the USA ,the majority of affected areas are cities, especially New York City. Contrast that with my stance and what I see and my opinion of the situation, I live in what can only be defined as a "cushy suburb" outside Jacksonville, Florida. Jax (as we call it) isn't an overly large city, and is very, very spread out.
The one thing you find in New York that you don't find in Jax, or our more southern, beachy suburbs, is multi-generational homes. Multi-generational homes abound in New York City. I have to believe, as Covid-19 affects mostly the elderly and those with preexisting conditions, being in an area that is dense with multi-generational homes would result in this thing spreading like wildfire?
I think it's also why you have the differing opinions of the severity. Where I live, it's just not affecting us near as much and the general populous believes it's time to get back to work as there is very little danger. Those living in or near bigger cities vehemently disagree, as the virus has had a much bigger impact on their lives.
Food for thought. But Eric, you're right. A lot of this was fear of the medical community becoming overrun.
Everyone have a good day.
182 Posted 22/04/2020 at 14:38:50
After a series of cancelled flights, sleeping on airport floors, and an almost total absence of checks on airline passengers, I arrived in Brisbane, a place I knew well, with plans to see family and friends. Instead, I went into 14 days isolation seeing no one or going anywhere...
Then I caught a flight to New Zealand on the day it announced its lockdown and closure of borders, by the skin of my teeth, but another 14 days self-isolation followed by a continuing lockdown.
Some salient points to be made:
1. The ability for this aggressive spread has its routes in airline travel, globalisation; without doubt, the virus spread because of the total absence in many countries of any checking of passengers. Period.
The only place I was checked at any of the seven airports on my trip was Auckland as I entered New Zealand. Today, still flights into the UK from anywhere are not checked. Is it any wonder the spread?
2. Things will not return to normal. There is no cure or vaccine as yet and it's debatable whether immunity follows infection. A new normal will arise until such time a cure or virus mutation is found.
3. New Zealand found a solution that worked for them, it won't for everyone..
Part 1... Part 2 in the morning... Stay safe. xx
183 Posted 22/04/2020 at 15:40:29
I was never ever the same with regards my fitness levels, but it didn't kill me, and it's never stopped me from having a great life (just made me awful at football) which is what is so bad about this horrible Covid-19.
184 Posted 22/04/2020 at 16:05:19
From his time on Britain's Got Talent, he learned not to be interested in the actual person performing, but how his own performance is rated. I'm sure behind it all he is laughing all the way to the bank, which will encourage him to come out with the raving claptrap that is his trade mark.
I never could take him seriously or watch him.
185 Posted 22/04/2020 at 16:32:50
He gave Blair respect because he tends to talk sense and can put the other view while strongly arguing his own case, something I've always liked about him.
Morgan is battering these Tory ministers because he knows they're all shite. They're only ministers because they're Brexit cult members and make Johnson look good – all the capable Tories have been sacked/marginalised or have left.
It was good to see a Labour leader looking like a potential PM today, but just wait, 'The People' will line up to call him a 'Remoaner Toff', while dutifully doffing their caps to the lying Old Etonian shagger.
186 Posted 22/04/2020 at 16:34:46
Fair enough not being able to take him seriously or even watch him, but he's making these politicians out to be exactly what they are right now, and he's probably never had an easier job.
187 Posted 22/04/2020 at 17:19:08
I live on the opposite coast from you near Crystal River but agree with what you say.
Covid-19 is mainly affecting concentrated areas like big cities, which is borne out by Miami and Orlando being the only places in Florida with seriously high incidences of the virus.
Tony A is also correct in that air travel with people concentrated in a closed space has also contributed to this pandemic; likewise cruise ships. That is why I believe sports and music events with large concentrated crowds will not be allowed anytime soon.
Social distancing may be with us for a while yet. Having said that, it's great to see some talented and creative people doing their bit on social media. If you haven't caught it I definitely recommend a video just produced by Mumford & Sons and Diplo.
188 Posted 22/04/2020 at 17:23:04
189 Posted 22/04/2020 at 18:04:58
I've had a chance to listen to Iris DeMent, and also to the Green Day track Warning.
Alan, what a set of pipes she has, tremendous. I've downloaded a few more tracks to have a listen to.
Mike the Green Day track I knew, because it is my 6-year-old grandson's second favourite song by them after Minority. He listens to his dad play it in the car.
That's not all he listens to in his Dad's car either. He called me a Bellend recently, and it seemed it was something his Dad called other drivers. I tried not to laugh, honest.
Tried to give all this Covid-19 stuff a miss for most of today, and did a Tony A, and listened to some music instead.
It hath powers to soothe the savage breast seemingly. It did for me anyway.
190 Posted 22/04/2020 at 18:31:39
Chris #189 - It hath indeed. With my choir shut down for the rest of the year (we won't reassemble until January), I've been downloading new music from iTunes and singing at least a few minutes a day, just to keep my pipes from freezing up with inactivity. It does make me feel better.
191 Posted 22/04/2020 at 18:36:58
The virus is equally contagious to people of all ages and health categories. The risk of complications and death from Covid-19 does increase with age, excess weight and infirmity, but not the risk of infection.
192 Posted 22/04/2020 at 18:37:49
One of the few things that I have grown into over the years, however, is a desire to listen to music that means something to me. So I really liked Gram Parsons (cool). Which got me enjoying Merle Haggard (square). His version of Pancho and Lefty (with Willie Nelson ) got me into Townes Van Zandt. Hearing him duet with Iris got me into her stuff.
Life is good. There is just so much good audio out there; my only advice to anyone would be to open yourself up to all music. Otherwise, we'd never have listened to little Jimmy Osmond.
193 Posted 22/04/2020 at 18:38:10
194 Posted 22/04/2020 at 18:53:15
And I'll second Mike's detail regarding coronavirus.
195 Posted 22/04/2020 at 18:58:48
I'm 72, and had a similar journey I suppose. American music where I could get in the 50s, mainly black plus Elvis. Then skiffle was massive. Ledbelly followed, Woody, Dylan and in that order.
The sixties was the usual stuff then Folk through Jansch etc, Davy Graham, Dylan inventing Rock, Stax and Muscle Shoals, West Coast Bands, American and British Blues into Sebastian, Band, Paul Butterfield etc. Similar to you, but my entry was via the Eagles into Country, and Gene Clark, Gram etc. My route to Townes was via Guy Clark who I think is more of an unsung hero than Dennis Stevens..
And so it remains. Folk, Blues, Country, Rock. Except it's Martin Simpson, Ben Harper, Felice Brothers, James McMurtry – to name but a few.
And on it goes.
196 Posted 22/04/2020 at 19:05:31
197 Posted 22/04/2020 at 19:08:02
What you described is precisely my primary path for discovering artists and music I didn't previously know -- discovering their versions of songs I already liked. One example: "Early Morning Rain" has always been a folk favorite of mine -- I even had the mind-spinning honor of singing it with Noel Paul Stookey of Peter Paul & Mary at a benefit concert 30 years ago. But I discovered an even better version done by the bluegrass duo of Tim O'Brien and Darrell Scott, which in turn introduced me to some old Hot Rize and a whole new line of string-based "fun" bluegrass.
And it was Paul Simon's "That Was Your Mother" that introduced me to The Twisters and eventually pulled me in to Zydeco, which I still enjoy.
Funny where those musical side roads can lead you.
198 Posted 22/04/2020 at 19:19:27
People are talking about Doc Marten's, white kecks and the like. The uniform of the rather violent skinheads of the late 60s. (I was a weekend hippy... all lank hair and posing with King Crimson albums.)
The skinheads with their supposed racist leanings were responsible for exposing Bluebeat, Ska and Reggae to a white audience in those years.
All comes down to the music in the end. Keep listening. Keep supping. Keep safe. And, if you're an angler... Keep net.
199 Posted 22/04/2020 at 19:21:43
Zydeco and Cajun is a whole different topic. I got into it through Rocking Dopsie and Buckwheat Zydeco who was a bit more commercial, but it's fantastic dance music. I liked stuff like Diggy Liggy Lo, but I got into that via the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. I've still got about 2000 vinyl albums around the house and lots of stuff like that in there.
I think I'll leave the kids to sort that out in time. Maybe a few collectors items in there for them.
Alan, I saw what you did there!
Paul the man is a virtuoso!
200 Posted 22/04/2020 at 19:42:44
I'm being genuine, but it doesn't even take him two weeks to earn it. Incredible, but well done, Gareth Bale👏👏
201 Posted 22/04/2020 at 19:51:10
I learned something about Cajun music from a chef I worked with. Through him I found the somewhat-less-commercial Geno Delafose, who was pretty obscure back then. Check out Chickens On The Run and Watch That Dog. Very entertaining stuff.
2000 albums? Damn. I finally threw away my turntable last year. Respects for a man who has kept the vinyl faith!
202 Posted 22/04/2020 at 22:00:36
So, here in New Zealand, it's like I have entered the paradise section of the Twilight Zone. Surreal.
Finally arrived in Nelson at the top of the South Island to find a ghost town. Empty. Not a soul. Beautiful sunshine and beach, empty.
Over the first week of my venturing out for my daily walk, I encountered a few other walkers who, to a man, kept their distance, crossed the road as they saw you coming, but every dammed one smiled and said "Good morning". The Kiwis took on board their Prime Minister's advice to the letter, accepted it for the good of themselves and their neighbour, it was the right thing to do.
Jacinda Adherns understands and clearly tells it how it is in here daily press conferences but her message is clear: be kind to each other. It gave the country a sense of purpose, focus and solidarity that has all but wiped this thing from this island.
New Zealand is lucky to have such a good leader, lucky to be an island, lucky not to have an ultra-right buffoon leading them or a hopeless government with a one-trick pony (Brexit) as their mantra.
I remember my last walk along New Brighton promenade, was it only a month ago? No social distancing, no thought for others – just directionless focus and fear.
All New Zealand has done is press the pause button and stopped travel. (All?) For a vaccine to be found, the world needs time, space and good leadership. Sadly, too many countries have incompetence and lies, with mounting tolls daily; their trust is broken and anger seeps in with realisation and fear.
Jamie, from the outside looking in, all I can say to you is look around you... Yes, people are suffering, some more so than others with the economic fallout, but they are still alive. As a society, I want to live in a place I know will do what's best for its people, for each other, rather than focus on self-interest. I understand completely the rationale that the economic cost to undertake the solution is horrifying, but then so is the cost of ignoring it.
Every country has its own strategy; some good... others not. But, at the end of the day, any solution needs to be driven and accepted by the people to make it work. In the US, you have an egotistical leader who wants to make political capital through division. It will lead to blame and more death, but also countries will close their borders to the US.
Final point: air travel. I said at the beginning that air travel around the world has brought the virus to our doors at the speed of sound. Spend a moment or two and have a look at Flight Tracker, it tracks every flight in the world live. Have a look at UK, Europe.. a handful of flights, you can even see its origins and destination. Then have a look at the US. Thousands of flights, planes still flying. All of a sudden, you see why the US is in trouble and why this thing will continue to spread there.
Governments don't have a monopoly on making the right decisions but common sense tells you without clear information, focus and the will, the outcome will be poor. We have a responsibility to take care of ourselves and other people who, without that consideration, would suffer or be lost. Sadly when you have incompetence at the top, confusion and blame follows. Then it's every man for himself.
To the outside world, people are looking in at the demonstrations in the US against the lockdowns, people with military arms, confederate flags, Liberty or Covid-19 placards and frankly think the place is either full of nutters or self-centered morons who cannot see the wood for the trees. Of course it's not but, while the rest of the world fights this thing as best they can (using actually the same principles that were used in the 1600s for plague: isolate and lock down...) there are others who have chosen to blame.
I understand every economic argument but, once you are dead, you are dead. For those left, the world may not be the same, but you would still have the chance to live, and to live with the understanding that you have a debt to those around you for making that happen. You may be in financial ruin, but you are alive to make the most of what you do have. Remember, you cannot be financially secure or rich when you are dead.
Look after each other, stay well, and remember all those around the world who are giving their lives so that others can be safe.
203 Posted 22/04/2020 at 22:44:32
While reading your post, I was rating the leaders of various nations in how they were handling this crisis and how they were relating and communicating with their countries citizens. Jacinda Adhern comes across as a caring and genuine person. This is indeed a rare attribute for a politician.
On both sides of the big pond and here in Ireland, leadership with honesty and true compassion is as scarce as hen's teeth. I don't care for politics but, if more people with the qualities of Jacinda Adhern were guiding us, we would be in a much better place.
In my earlier posts, I referred to governments not giving a truthful number of unfortunate deaths from Covid-19. This is done to make them look as though they are in control. Shameless sods. I'm in my 60s and now live in hope that my adult family and grandchildren will see a better world where leadership is earned through honesty and respect for others. I may be an auld fool but live in hope. The current crop of leaders on both sides of the pond exude contempt for all voters, even those that voted them in.
Thanks for your post and stay safe in New Zealand. I could think of many worse places to be in lockdown.
204 Posted 22/04/2020 at 23:03:34
Stay safe in New Zealand. They've got a good leader there.
205 Posted 22/04/2020 at 23:22:11
Chris and Alan – here is my favourite Iris DeMent song.
This song means a lot to me – I hope you enjoy it.
206 Posted 23/04/2020 at 01:22:35
Christine's post is like that. So are some of the phone conversations I've had with friends who have lost people. We're all feeling these pent-up emotions. And we'll all have to deal with them long after the virus itself is gone.
Christine, thank you for sharing.
207 Posted 23/04/2020 at 02:59:49
I lived there for 15 years and that's how they think. They see themselves as one big team... 15 All Blacks on the pitch and 4.5M people on the bench... all part of the same team. Team New Zealand.
Here in Australia, we have what at first glance appeared to be a contradiction – an unpopular, populist right-wing buffoon who seemed to also have some of the 'perceived bad things' associated with the word 'Christian' too.
To his and some people's great surprise... but mainly due to the even more unpopular left-wing buffoon of a labour party leader (Bill Shorten; 'The Bill' Australia can't afford) he got a right-wing government re-elected.
On foreign policy, he talks to Trump... but I think that has something to do with the deep-seated fear of the massive neighbour in the Northwest Pacific area. (Can you even say 'yellow peril' nowadays?)
But here at home, on the virus front, he seems to be doing a decent job... letting passengers walk off infected cruise ships aside... not as good as New Zealand – different scale and he did shut down air travel as much as he could, to be honest – but not bad.
Keep up with your Alastair Cook-esque Letter from New Zealand.
208 Posted 23/04/2020 at 06:20:25
First time they became virus-free, they still had inbound flights from UK with incoming tourists, including an airline pilot spreading it around, and returning Vietnamese.
Their solution was to round up everyone that had been in contact with the infected person and quarantine them. Secondary contacts were given 14 days at home, including everyone that lived in the same building, even if there'd been no contact.
They are not making the same mistake as the first time and are keeping their borders closed. So maybe an experiment to watch regarding second waves and immunity.
209 Posted 23/04/2020 at 06:48:09
"Be kind to each other" isn't a bad guiding principle for anyone, let alone a political leader.
It was what our local Catholic priest used to say to couples he married. Nothing else, ‘because nobody wants to listen to an old celibate banging on about things he knows feck all about'
He was a man of great humanity and humility with huge faith, underpinned by a fierce intellect. Greatly loved, and badly affected by the things he saw as a young seminarian in Ireland.
He gave me back my faith. Influenced thousands over the years with simple goodness and above all, kindness.
210 Posted 23/04/2020 at 06:59:14
Thats lovely thanks. Ive gone from not knowing anything about her, to having a dozen tracks on my lockdown playlist, now including this one.
211 Posted 23/04/2020 at 08:21:06
I too started taking an interest on how various leaders around the world are dealing with this horrible virus. I had to stop. I was scaring the fucking living daylights out of myself.
When I read what the Brazilian premier said about this plague a couple of weeks ago, I was so horrified, I had to read it 2-3 times to ensure I had got it right.
I have since realised that, when he shrugged his shoulders and said "It's raining, some will get wet and some will drown" he was only saying what most of the fucking rest of them were thinking.
212 Posted 23/04/2020 at 09:11:24
The Kiwis are a simple race, lovely people: no airs, no graces. Derek has described them perfectly, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your days around such easy-going people, Christine.
Mike G, I've been following your posts on this thread with great interest, simply because you have been invested in this horrible virus from the beginning, and you speak with a lot of compassion and intelligence on this horrible subject; thanks, mate!
I can understand Jamie C, he's just taken out a big loan to keep his company afloat, so if things don't get started, where is that going to leave him financially? But life is definitely the most important thing; Christine is right once again.
The sad thing is that Darren is right, the Brazilian is just saying what many other leaders are probably thinking... But, when it's all over, then hopefully we will have learned something because these people are just not fit enough to lead. I see them drowning on the television on a daily basis; the only thing getting ramped-up is the grim realisation that the bastards are completely out of their depth.
Stay safe, everyone, keep listening to the music and learning!
213 Posted 23/04/2020 at 10:13:46
My hope is that, when this is all over, sane people will get things sorted by voting these gobshites out. I think after this, the young generation might have more interest in people-politics rather than the 'tweedle dreams, tweedle dum' party politics as we know it.
214 Posted 23/04/2020 at 10:18:03
215 Posted 23/04/2020 at 10:24:21
I was always impressed by the Dalia Lama who said “The only religion is kindness” – a bit like Jesus Christ. If everybody lived by that principle, it would be a very different and better world.
I hope you settle into your new life in New Zealand and enjoy the rest of your time there. I think you will make many new friends there, good luck and good health.
216 Posted 23/04/2020 at 13:58:34
Christine makes a valid point about air travel and the need for closed, or at least, monitored borders. The more mobile people are, the more Covid-19 spreads.
To follow up Darren's fascination with world 'leaders' and what they are coming out with, just stick to Brazil. We've got some right beauts.
Bolsonaro's Foreign Minister posted a rambling blog describing Covid-19 'Comunavirus' and beats up the WHO. Why? Because they are clearly facilitating Communist China in their 'globalist project... a first step in the construction of the planetary communist society.'
It's barking. Brazil's Foreign Minister, FFS! But even that pales into insignificance to the 60-second ramblings of a Brazilian entrepreneur whose politics are right of Hitler.
Her 'solution'? Mike Gaynes who I believe is of the Jewish faith and other fellow Jews may want to look away now. A summary:
'For those of you who value life over generating money (titter...), why don't we do the following? If you want to self-isolate and not work, paint your doors red. If you want to go out, pin on a red ribbon so supermarkets and pharmacies don't serve you as food and medicine will be reserved for those who work for it.'
It's worth watching this Botox-Barbie even though it's in Portuguese just to identify her.
Thankfully she is getting slaughtered by many. One post I particularly liked turned her opinion on its head.
'How about an alternative 'final solution'? How about those who ignore social distancing and isolation have THEIR doors marked and that they wear a red ribbon so when they arrive at a hospital, struggling to breath with Covid-19, they are turned away and told 'But it's only a little flu'. As your President said, 'It's the survival of the fittest and the weakest of you are going to die'.
217 Posted 23/04/2020 at 19:11:41
Regarding New Zealand, if anyone paid attention to Kiwi politics, they'd have known that Saint Jacinda was actually heading to electoral defeat until the pandemic. It might have been also worth posting that she didn't even really win the election that put her into power... she instead had to rely on an opportunistic very minor party to make up a coalition for the narrowest of majorities. It was suggested that her proposal to have a vote on the legalization of cannabis at the same time as the next general election there was a ploy to increase young voter turnout and get her over the line.
Many Kiwis are very unhappy with the insane house prices and broken promises on the construction of properties by the government. The business community is aghast at her frankly insane decision to drastically increase the minimum wage, a decision allied with the pandemic-related downturn, will likely have a catastrophic effect on an economy attempting to rebound quickly.
Saint Jacinda is the anti-Trump person really respected around the world but not really getting much done at home. The pandemic came at a good time for her politically, she's virtually guaranteed to win a second term in September. For the opposition, I suspect they'll be happy to let her have the incredibly difficult task of repairing an economy that is almost wholly dependent on services, the sector most likely to struggle after the pandemic ends.
Regarding debt, I know ToffeeWeb is not representative of the population as a whole, with an extreme concentration of largely older white men as the userbase. That said, it is still disappointing that nobody here seems to know how monetary policy at the national level actually operates.
The countries in the deepest shit at the end of this thing are of course those in the Eurozone, because they don't control or print their own currency. Most ToffeeWebbers probably know or care very little about the economic difficulties that the most-affected countries on the continent are going through due to their use of the Euro.
In the most basic terms, if you control and print your own currency in a reasonably balanced economy, then government deficits do not matter in the least. It does not matter how big or small they are because Governments are not households. Governments can't go broke, and they can create as much of their money as they like.
This is a trick that the Republicans in the States have used and kept close to their chests because they understand the science behind it. Since Nixon took the US off the gold standard, deficits have ceased to be of any real importance. This is why Trump was able to spend $2 trillion on tax cuts without a care in the world, and then spend further trillions on the recently enacted CARES Act.
It's why the British Government was able to pay all the wages of those who have been furloughed; it's why the Australian government is handing out free money to the unemployed, has doubled unemployment benefit and agreed to spend around £65 billion on wages of people in the private sector.
If you're one of those naive people that believe that taxes fund the Government, or somehow money must be found by Government before it can be spent, then you really need to wake yourself up and do some research into how central banks and monetary policy actually operate. Taxes pay for nothing, and they never will. Deficits are fine, no matter the size, as long as they don't lead to inflationary pressure in the economy.
Taxes are an important way to encourage or discourage behaviors – like smoking for example – to take money out of the economy to combat inflationary pressure and to compel people to use the national currency (as they must pay their taxes in it). But they serve no real other purposes than those.
It's a great shame that Bernie Sanders campaign fell short, as his Green New Deal and Healthcare For All plans were eminently affordable. He seemed to me to be the first and only Democrat who actually understands the potential of monetary policy and was actually going to use it to make ordinary peoples lives better instead of just giving money to those at the top to further entrench their position and widen the equality gap.
During World War II, the US temporarily suspended the gold standard and used deficit spending to fund the war effort. By the end of the war in 1945, the deficit was an eye watering 112% of GDP, the highest number before or since. Did that "debt" affect or hold the country back in any way? Of course not, the deficit was used to defeat Nazism and the following 15 years saw some of the best economic conditions in US history. The country went from tiptoeing out of a depression to the mightiest consumer economy in the world in a decade.
A huge part of that is the war bonds people had bought off the government during the war – so the "debt" – had created a massive pool of savings spread across the US population that funded some of the fastest increases in real living standards the world has ever seen.
I know it's an Everton forum, but I do urge everyone here to use this time to do things they wouldn't ordinarily have time to do, whether that be researching New Zealand politics, educating oneself on how monetary theory really operates, or learning to play the banjo. And I do urge you all to stay safe also.
218 Posted 23/04/2020 at 19:25:51
The virus is equally contagious to people of all ages and health categories. The risk of complications and death from COVID-19 does increase with age, excess weight and infirmity, but not the risk of infection.
I should have said the majority of people adversely affected. It absolutely can infect anyone. It hits, very hard, people who have pre-existing health conditions, are overweight, or are elderly.
The large majority of persons acquiring the virus that are not over 65, aren't over weight, and don't have a pre-existing condition recover. I think you'd agree with that? Lemme know.
Our state here is getting back to normal – a bit. The streets have much more traffic today. Other Southern states are "going back". Florida's new infection numbers are now down to March 27th levels. We're fortunate. Time will tell if we "went back" too early or not. I'd guess in my state by May 4th we'll see restaurants reopening, hair salons, and business back to usual with the exception of social distancing measures.
219 Posted 23/04/2020 at 19:51:10
I hope you, and every single person on TW understands, my viewpoint is not one of self-interest. Never has been. My little company is going to make it through this, and frankly as long as I can pay my bills, I don't give a flying you-know-what if we're in the red (deep, deep red) for 3-4 months.
You can't take money with you when God rings the bell.
What I will say is not popular, and people will draw their own conclusions. The economic fallout from this is real, and it will have real, devastating effects on real human beings. I have maintained we should have done exactly what we did – isolate. I would also maintain, popular or not, that the data does not add up to following the same course of action in the future. We need to find an alternative.
That may seem cold-hearted to some, but I can assure you it is not a self-absorbed stance. I can assure you my family and I have respected every second of social distancing, to every human being.
The part you don't want to probably hear is that I can assure you there are many parts of the world that can safely reintroduce "normal" ways and get the world's economy back up and running.
As I've said to Mike, I personally am on a course for a return to normalcy in a week or so. I'd about guarantee that Florida will resume business with social distancing in a week or two. If we are wrong about our downward trend and the far-reaching affects of Covid-19, we'll all know about it by the end of May because we'll have an unprecedented outbreak here.
Insofar as other areas of the world, for me they all need to make up their own minds as to when it's safe to return. What happens in New York isn't the same as what happens in Liverpool, or what happens in Florida, or what happens in New Zealand.
None of the above is written without realizing this virus is deadly, that people will indeed die of it, and that there will be real loss felt by human beings due to that. I don't want to see any of that. But I've been through death of loved ones multiple times before, and will see it again, as it's a part of life. And it's unavoidable. It can be mitigated in circumstances and should be as in this one. It's the right thing to do. But the argument that business should shelter and 26 million Americans should remain unemployed with that number growing until there's a cure, or numbers are 10%, 20%, 30% – pick a percentage of any other major cause of death?
I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. I firmly believe the economic fallout of an extended isolation will do more damage than Covid-19.
This site is built on valuing opposing opinions. Seems I'm in the minority. I can live with that.
What I can't abide is the thought that my opinion isn't for what I see as the "greater good" but rather a self-absorbed stance.
I think the greater good would be to keep the economy up and running while combating this virus in Round 2, and I know you're smart enough to realize what those reasons for keeping the economy going are – whether you agree with them or not. If that seems cold-hearted to some, then so be it.
Cheers. Be well. Wash your hands.
220 Posted 23/04/2020 at 20:33:57
221 Posted 23/04/2020 at 20:59:20
Indeed some parts of the world are hit more badly than others but it is pure conjecture to believe that without isolation the results would have been the same. Secondly, to allow the world to get back to "normal" means to get the world's major manufacturers and suppliers up and running; however, they are all sitting in highly populated and highly infected areas mostly where the virus thrives and where isolation has been the only weapon of choice. Getting back to normal is not going to happen anytime soon.
Simply put, where there are concentrations of mobile populations, there is high risk. Without a vaccine or preventative drugs, isolation is the only alternative.
This virus kills. To accept that it's just part of a life-and-death cycle, a survival of the fittest, for the greater good, is not in my make up. Lives are being lost, economies are being ruined and solutions must be found, but right now, right at this minute; it's all we have and it's hitting a nut with a bloody big hammer but it's the only hammer that works.
I totally agree that lessons have to be learnt for next time, that some areas need various degrees but, to stop the spread, you have to stop movement. That is the only way to control it. Once a vaccine is found, then it's a different ball game.
People can accuse governments of overkill (sic) with their controls but, faced with the options, what other rational choice could have been made? Look at New York, high-density population with mass infection... What alternatives could have made a difference there?
Leaving decisions to town councils or mayors is just plain wrong. It's a throwback to the days of the plague and we all know how that turned out.
So Jamie, I fully understand as I said before, the personal economic effects that government have created in taking decisions and the effect on the future wellbeing of people but, left unchecked, the virus would decimate the economy anyway, a real Hobson's Choice, do nothing and your dead, do something and you may cripple and hurt a lot too...
My humanity believes every life is sacred, should be fought for, and is worth more than any asset I own. If it left me in ruin to ensure my family lived, then so be it. That's the decision this country has made, as Derek pointed out with his great analogy, Team New Zealand, 15 All Black's and 4.5 million on the bench.
Jamie, I have close family living and working on the medical front line in Dallas, l hear weekly their days and fears in a country that can be fabulous and heartless at the same time. That is a price they pay for being there, like the Curate's Egg, good and bad in equal measure. But that's not the way others live or view the world and that's not wrong to have that view, it's just a different view. Until a cure is found, keep you and yours safe, Jamie... and, as a footnote, this is not intended as a rebuke, but as a different perspective I have too much respect for you to view it any other way.
222 Posted 23/04/2020 at 21:21:35
223 Posted 23/04/2020 at 23:56:59
My mate, 65 years old and fit as a fiddle, contracted Covid-19 on a skiing trip in France last month. Only had cough and fever, didn't need a ventilator, and made a full recovery.
224 Posted 23/04/2020 at 00:07:05
Yes, we do need to get economies back up and running but not at the expense of our health. Mike Gaines has all the right ideas and comments to what Jamie is suggesting. And I say this as a fellow Floridian to Jamie – our Governor is a Trumpian idiot.
225 Posted 24/04/2020 at 01:15:02
Are the people of Sweden doing it correctly or no? Should they have shut down their society and business in the interest of "health", or have they approached this more sensibly than the rest of the world?
Curious as to the opinion of that. I don't ask as a, "See what they did, they did it right!" comment. Not at all. I'm genuinely curious as to the opinions of the majority as to how Sweden has handled the pandemic.
226 Posted 24/04/2020 at 02:04:42
As this is a whole new ballgame; nobody actually knows what the best response is. Yours might be right, it might be wrong... or somewhere in between and, as it's a very big world out there, what works for you mightn't work for me where I am.
Just look at the many responses of how to perform the mundane task of staging a game of football and how they vary with the number of responders.
Things will get back to 'normal' but, like post Hiroshima 1945, it will be a 'New Normal'... and that normal will evolve.
The best we can hope for is to be here to see it in say 5 years – then discuss it.
227 Posted 24/04/2020 at 02:14:23
228 Posted 24/04/2020 at 03:40:33
WINNER, the Tiger Woods Award for Making Us Feel We Hardly Know You: Sweden
Think Sweden, think Scandinavian social democracy; cradle-to-grave welfare and generous social support systems. But Swedens response to the pandemic has not been universal self-sacrifice, New Zealand-style. On the recommendation of an epidemiologist at the independent Public Health Agency, the Social Democrats/Greens coalition government have instead pursued a herd immunity strategy theyre calling a “trust-based” approach to the virus. Social distancing is voluntary. Schools for under-16s, gyms, restaurants, bars and Swedens borders remain open. As a result, it now has one of the highest proportional death rates from the virus in the world – nine times higher than next-door neighbour Finland, larger even than the United States. Since half of the countrys aged care facilities found themselves struck by coronavirus, Sweden has quietly started moving towards greater gathering restrictions. Like any apology, it doesnt count for much when people have been left for dead.
On the recommendation of an epidemiologist at the independent Public Health Agency, the Social Democrats/Greens coalition government have instead pursued a herd immunity strategy theyre calling a “trust-based” approach to the virus. Social distancing is voluntary. Schools for under-16s, gyms, restaurants, bars and Swedens borders remain open.
As a result, it now has one of the highest proportional death rates from the virus in the world – nine times higher than next-door neighbour Finland, larger even than the United States.
Since half of the countrys aged care facilities found themselves struck by coronavirus, Sweden has quietly started moving towards greater gathering restrictions. Like any apology, it doesnt count for much when people have been left for dead.
229 Posted 24/04/2020 at 04:16:56
Jamie, living in Florida, I am more concerned with residents of this country having permits to carry concealed weapons and going out during our lockdown to buy more "essential" guns now. In fact, I am much more frightened of people here with guns and shooting and killing someone for no reason at all, as happened a day or so ago 10 miles from where I live, than I am of being confirmed to have the virus.
230 Posted 24/04/2020 at 06:44:24
Just as a matter of interest, Voltaire said no such thing and didn't intend that meaning. They were, I believe, the words of somebody, who may have been translating some of his works, when asked for an abridged opinion.
Should have said something along the lines of Gordon Strachan's, "Velocity". Next, we'll be saying Drake defeated the Spanish Armada and Wellington won at Waterloo. Still, to the victors, the pen, VAR permitting.
231 Posted 24/04/2020 at 08:25:15
Jamie C and I clearly disagree on lots of things politically, but I completely agree with him on one issue: we have to have a discussion on when we all go back to work.
I'm saying this from a position of (relative, so far) strength. I'm still trading, getting some virtual work that will cover the bills for a while. We live in a lovely, quiet part of the world with plenty of space.
But I'm talking to people all over the UK, stuck in the house with no outdoor space, with bored kids. Not knowing what to do, spending far too much time worrying about what might/might not happen. And that's before their first furlough payment doesn't arrive or arrives late.
Normal's going to change. Work patterns will be different, social habits will be different. We're all going to have to make decisions about how we live and interact with others.
Some people want to get back to 'normality' because they're scared. Scared of change, scared of a lack of control and/or trust in others or themselves.
We're going to make a new normal, hopefully with real bravery. That's talking with, understanding and showing interest in others. Being good to others – and ourselves.
Ultimately, that's what's going to keep us fit and well when we go back to work.
232 Posted 24/04/2020 at 08:30:29
Now you've heard of Julius Caesar
And the great Napolean too
And how the Cork Militia
Beat the Turks at Waterloo
Great song..check it out
233 Posted 24/04/2020 at 09:05:35
It would appear this lock down lark is a little bit like watching Everton.
Most people are struggling to do it without alcohol.
234 Posted 24/04/2020 at 09:10:29
As the old joke goes, I'm on a whisky diet. I lost 3 days last week.
It's all part of growing up, I guess.
235 Posted 24/04/2020 at 09:14:51
Putting to one side what the right thing to do is in relation to Covid-19, how many blues hope the 2019-20 season doesn't restart just to stop the RS from winning the league?
I've spoken to a lot of people, not just Evertonians, who have an "official stance" which is that the season should be concluded but when pushed just spill their guts and confess that if the 2019-20 season was voided and no team declared Champions, then they would be delighted!
Answers on a postcard...
236 Posted 24/04/2020 at 09:15:52
Terry W, frightening that, very frightening to be living in such a Catch-22 society, mate, but maybe some bored and pent-up Americano might be able to pull the “Trump trigger” although I'm sure a little injection of disinfectant would do.
I want the league to finish because I worry for a lot of football clubs if it's not finished, Tony. We slag the players for not doing enough, but most clubs will probably struggle badly for years if they don't receive this TV money, and it is definitely the only reason we are talking about a league that should already have been cancelled imo.
237 Posted 24/04/2020 at 09:32:25
For my penny worth, Hancock and all the other ministers are in a holding pattern (and day by day are looking more foolish) waiting for Johnson to return so he can announce the end of the lockdown or the beginning of the end of the lockdown. Johnson is reluctant to come back to work because the weather is fabulous and they have a great open-air swimming poll at Chequers and a private tennis court and his girlfriend much prefers it there than 'beastly' No 10.
Trump is out of his depth (cue eye-rolling understatement). His suggestion we all inject disinfectant into our bodies is beyond bizarre but will no doubt kill a number of Americans who believe every word he utters.
The lockdown is going to destroy the economy and have very serious indirect and direct health implications for the poorer sections of society. This must be considered in the balance; in that I have sympathy for some of Jamie's comments. And I speak as an active Labour member.
It is sort of obvious that the whole thing could have been handled so much better without such enormous disruption. When the very first recorded carrier came back from the French ski resort, and when the students came back from Wuhan, there was intense media scrutiny of how they were tested, their contacts traced and they were all put into quarantine. Then... nothing.
As the numbers grew as people piled into the country unchecked (including me flying in from Italy), the government abandoned contact tracing before it even got started. Now, they are saying that's what needs to be done!
If it had been rigorously applied when the numbers were small, combined with checking all passengers at airports and ports, the level of the outbreak would have been like in Asia, ie, manageable. So, sheer incompetence, as usual, has meant that thousands have died unnecessarily.
Why did they abandon contact tracing? Because the government (ie, Johnson at the time) did not want to disrupt the economy and inconvenience people. Of course we all know that the disruption is 100 times worse than if they had the balls to act much earlier.
238 Posted 24/04/2020 at 09:33:03
239 Posted 24/04/2020 at 09:44:14
240 Posted 24/04/2020 at 09:51:51
Already, the tone has started to shift out of Downing Street, with some of the anonymous anti-Hancock briefing pretty strong, to say the least.
The line-by-line rebuttals of some of the articles, notably in the Sunday Times, is definitely a change in tone, as is their position on the EU PPE procurement nonsense being a political decision. Watching those contortions and EU responses tells you something which hopefully will come out eventually.
Actually their constant mantra of being science-led and "we're following the scientific advice" gives you some idea of who the ultimate fall guys may be.
On a another subject, I see the Premier League are now considering some sort of play-offs behind closed doors, but free to view, to settle final placing.
Oh yes, the lawyers will be having a fine old time, wherever you look.
241 Posted 24/04/2020 at 09:55:03
Watching the passion Sunderland fans have for their club (just my opinion but I think Mackems are much friendlier and passionate than Geordies), makes me realise how much I, and many of us, are missing going the match. Sometimes not just for the game itself, but the meeting of mates in the pub before and after the game, the banter with opposition fans at away games.
So, while it would give me no greater pleasure than seeing this season null and void, or cancelled just to stop the RS winning the league (which won't happen anyway), I can't wait to get back to the matchday experience.
A mate of mine that I go the game with, was struck down with the virus, and told me he was really ill for a week and was literally shitting himself. He lost over 2 stone in weight, but is now thankfully well on the way to recovery. So, while we all miss the football, people's health is far more important, and if it means this season is over to help fight the virus, then good.
Stay safe, everyone!
242 Posted 24/04/2020 at 10:01:02
I know what you're saying...
But what if it was a coin-flip between starting the 2020-21 season as soon as possible, say in October, or recommencing the 2019-20 season on the same date?
(BTW – Of course health is the most important consideration but some lighthearted debate is good for us too!) ;)
243 Posted 24/04/2020 at 10:25:36
I always feel if you hammer somebody for what you believe is wrong, You have a kind of moral obligation to give them credit when it's due too.
I've slaughtered Moyes down the years but, if I had a cap, I would most definitely have it doffed to him this morning. The people at the supermarket say he tried hard to keep the story under wraps and, let's face it, nobody would have noticed if he just sat in his garden.
He's got red hair but I don't care. Davey, Davey Moyes.
244 Posted 24/04/2020 at 10:31:20
But what we do know is that Countries who went into lockdown early, and those who didnt lock everywhere down but had massive testing and trace in place seems to have been the most successful in keeping their death rate fairly low. So surely you would think seeing most of these countries were many weeks ahead of us and seeing the success they have had all countries should have followed this pattern.
I watched the Swedish Prime Minister being interviewed yesterday, and they are following the herd immunity that was favoured at the beginning by Johnson and Cummings. Which thankfully they have now abandoned, but Sweden despite having much higher death rates than there Scandinavian neighbours are still pursuing this herd immunity. When the interviewer asked him what if he had got this strategy horribly wrong he just shrugged his shoulders.
These are world leaders supposed to be trying to protect their countries inhabitants. Why would you go completely against what has worked and is working in other countries? I am at a complete loss. I can only conclude that some politicians believe that, to save the economy from nosediving, then they are prepared to accept a higher death rate than some other countries.
245 Posted 24/04/2020 at 10:33:15
You are spot on about Sunderland supporters and their passion for football. They were famous for ‘The Roker Roar' – louder than the Kop at Anfield which was fully covered by a roof to keep the sound in. Roker Park had no cover but the sound was awesome.
The Sunderland supporters were more discerning, like us Bluenoses, in what they watch. They will not (or would not) put up with watching any old shite, whereas Newcastle fans would watch eleven monkeys in black-and-white striped shirts.
246 Posted 24/04/2020 at 10:34:31
I posted the story about Davey Moyes, and some were skeptical about its authenticity, but it has been confirmed by many press outlets.
247 Posted 24/04/2020 at 10:35:28
I think this just about sums the guy and his government up:
248 Posted 24/04/2020 at 10:43:46
249 Posted 24/04/2020 at 10:49:41
250 Posted 24/04/2020 at 10:51:25
Dead right about Moyes. Top gesture from a good man. I believe Mourinho's been doing some delivery work too – I'd love to be a fly on the wall in his performance review!
251 Posted 24/04/2020 at 11:24:48
252 Posted 24/04/2020 at 11:32:50
253 Posted 24/04/2020 at 11:39:16
I totally agree with your point about the Sunderland supporters being a lot more discerning than Newcastle fans. All my wife's relatives live in Houghton Le Spring in Sunderland, and they are all Sunderland supporters. Despite their fall from the top tier, they still care deeply about their team and the style of football they want to watch.
My wife's uncle played in the same Bishop Auckland side who won the FA Amateur Cup as Bob Paisley, and they were good friends. Every year when Sunderland played Liverpool, Bob Paisley would invite Jim to the hotel the night before the game for a meal. He even carried this tradition on when he became manager.
254 Posted 24/04/2020 at 11:59:11
It is much too early to be holding up Sweden as a disaster story and attributing clear answers where there are as yet none.
Don't forget, the British media are only interested in one version of events. They are presenting Sweden as a failure to ensure compliance by projecting scaremongering and fear.
If you look at Sweden, they made the mistake early of not looking after their care homes as the herd immunity model relies on the success of protecting the vulnerable, so this was a key failure.
The statistics have also been skewed as Sweden have been reporting honestly and non-politically. Apparently some of their neighbours are only reporting deaths 'of' Coronavirus whereby Sweden are 'with' and 'of' which is a huge difference.
Also, the numbers who die in care homes is getting reported, where most other countries are only reporting from hospital deaths. Though they test less than many of their European counterparts.
All Cause Mortality should also be considered as Sweden haven't closed down their hospitals etc, so many more in countries which have lockdown will see increased death numbers from patients unable to get care, increased waiting lists, neglect, suicides etc.
In addition, Sweden will be suffering for just over a month or so until herd immunity is complete. They won't get a 2nd, 3rd or 4th wave which may be possible for those under lockdown. Will those under lockdown have to close their economies in September or this time next year? And again, how many extra deaths would there be then???
It maybe a year or two before anyone can accurately record which course of action worked best.
Despite all the factors I highlighted above in terms of deaths per million of each country's population, Sweden is performing better than many of the countries in Europe, including the UK, with Sweden sitting at 200 per million and UK at 276 per million.
255 Posted 24/04/2020 at 12:04:01
I agree with you in the main about the Mackems. Very much prefer Sunderland to Newcastle and have a number of good friends who go to the Stadium of Light. They are realistic and accept that they have a long ways to go. Unlike the Geordies who, in terms of delusion and entitlement, remind me of a shower closer to home.
I would have to say, though, that, over the last 30 years, there have been times when I would have welcomed 11 monkeys playing in blue and white.
257 Posted 24/04/2020 at 12:05:28
258 Posted 24/04/2020 at 12:11:48
Yes, I agree, it is to early to say which method is most successful, and only when this virus is defeated will we have a clearer picture of what worked and what didn't.
What I was pointing out was Sweden's herd immunity with no large-scale testing and tracing as against other countries pursuing a different method. But at present, the figures are showing early lockdown or massive testing and tracing seems to be working better than the herd immunity at the moment.
But, as I said at the beginning, only time will tell which method was best.
259 Posted 24/04/2020 at 12:29:22
But, after a quick scan, I realized what an enormously complex area this is, where so many voices over the many years have competed to be the definitive experts... but yet so few agree, even looking back and placing their own interpretations on the key episodes in history that shaped our current world. So I wondered if perhaps you are merely advocating one of the host of alternate views of history that are unfortunately so prevalent and so confounding to any student seeking greater knowledge and understanding, especially if it would lead us forward to a better world?
And there's the rub, methinks. What possible difference could such knowledge make to my mundane life, scratching out a living in the fiscal realities of this modern world? I don't mean to piss on your chips but please give us a little more to follow up on, than merely telling us "that nobody here seems to know how monetary policy at the national level actually operates."
260 Posted 24/04/2020 at 12:42:53
Sorry, too late... that explains the tangoed look and fried brain cells. 🤪
261 Posted 24/04/2020 at 12:48:51
262 Posted 24/04/2020 at 12:49:30
263 Posted 24/04/2020 at 12:50:10
Thanks very much for the pointer towards the music of Iris DeMent – I can't believe I have previously missed someone who has sung duets with the great, recently late, John Prine, and the writer of that wonderful song My Town, which once concluded a series of “Northern Exposure”.
I downloaded a collection of her songs to listen to on my walk this morning. Part of my trip out was to stand on the main road through Crosby, along with many others, to applaud the funeral cortège of Brian Boggild, the attendant at Blundellsands and Crosby railway station, who died as a result of the virus. He was a Blue, an ordinary man, in an ordinary town, yet extraordinary in his own way.
There has been a huge outpouring of affection and respect for him because of his good humour, friendliness and helpfulness. As I walked away, listening to My Town, I don't mind admitting I shed a few tears behind my shades.
A lesson for us all perhaps – to quote another song, “It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it”.
Peace, enlightenment and good health all round.
264 Posted 24/04/2020 at 13:04:10
I've read some ridiculous posts on here but yours deserves a prize: "(cue eye-rolling understatement)."
265 Posted 24/04/2020 at 13:12:36
I too was curious about Derek's post but, like most people, my understanding of the subject could be written in the very small corner of a very small postage stamp.
In order to seek information, I found this website Economicshelp which may be very simplistic but could be of help to those of us who have little or no idea about how the economy works.
266 Posted 24/04/2020 at 14:06:21
You never, ever forget nice people, and they reap as they sow, as today's turnout proved.
267 Posted 24/04/2020 at 14:51:05
Thanks for posting that.
268 Posted 24/04/2020 at 15:02:30
269 Posted 24/04/2020 at 15:04:24
I literally just watched an NBC Nightly News report about Sweden like 2-3 days ago, lauding how they've largely been able to carry on "as you were" without horrific numbers.
Now I read your report from The Guardian. To be honest, I'm getting to the point that I don't know what to think. I'll go later today to the CDC website and find the numbers on Sweden, then Google it's official population to obtain a percentage.
Remember the days when we could actually read something and trust in it's accuracy? Nostalgia!
Terry @229 and Fellow Floridian,
Don't be scared mate. Just drive to my house, I'll protect you. We actually had an active shooter situation literally across the street on Wednesday. The St Johns County Police instructed everyone to stay indoors, lock their doors, and shelter in place (not hard at the moment). Didn't worry me for even a second. We're well stocked here at the Crowley house. If you get scared, just swing on over. I promise you we'll have your back. 😜 'Merica Terry, 'Merica.
My family and I knocked out Sunderland Till I Die in about 3 nights. Fantastic documentary. Also gave us a new chant – the "Will Grigg on Fire" chant is simply hilarious and fantastic.
270 Posted 24/04/2020 at 15:09:13
Equally, the countries with collectivist cultures like Denmark, where people have the discipline to follow rules that benefit society rather than just themselves, have now begun to the process to slowly release the lockdown.
And countries with individualist cultures like the UK, US, France and Italy where people decide which guidelines they fancy following and which they'll decide to ignore are suffering the results. Johnson and his government wasted February through a mix of arrogance, stupidity, incompetence and insularity and they are only now being held to account for their failures.
To really see those factors in all their glory, take a bow UK Chief Medical Officer Jonathan Van-Tam, whose justification for why the UK is still not conducting temperature screening at airports was the biggest load of incomprehensible nonsense I have heard in a long time.
271 Posted 24/04/2020 at 15:35:20
Why are you so critical of the UK? Individualist cultures? Where? Everyone who lives near me is obeying all Government requests to the letter. Additionally, where do you get "now being held to account" – who is holding who to account?
All I hear from the new Labour party leader is moan, moan fucking moan. I think in these chaotic times, that no other European or world leader has ever had to deal with, we should thank the gods for our NHS system.
272 Posted 24/04/2020 at 15:45:23
The part of Charle's post I 'struggled with' most was:
"Johnson is reluctant to come back to work because the weather is fabulous and they have a great open-air swimming poll at Chequers and a private tennis court and his girlfriend much prefers it there than 'beastly' No 10."
"Trump is out of his depth (cue eye-rolling understatement). His suggestion we all inject disinfectant into our bodies is beyond bizarre but will no doubt kill a number of Americans who believe every word he utters."
Hate to say it, Steve, but even after your detailed and qualified explanation, I must refer you to my earlier comment.
273 Posted 24/04/2020 at 16:05:45
It's not heroic what health care staff are doing; in my opinion, we're not heroes. We've been labelled that by a careless government who's been caught with their pants down and, to redirect attention, they've deflected adulent attention onto doctors and nurses in the NHS.
I get embarrassed when I see all of the different ways people think of to thank health care staff, particularly the NHS. When this pandemic hit, what were we supposed to do – sit on our thumbs and leave our patients to their own devices, or to die?
Yes, I could have gone "sick" like some of my colleagues have done to avoid the risk, but it's their choice, just not one I would make. They've still got to face the music when they eventually return to work.
Don't get me wrong, I know it is genuine care and appreciation from the public, just not from a government, which cheered in the House of Commons when their motion not to pay NHS staff a wage rise in 2017 was carried through.
At the end of the day, we are just doing a job we were trained to do. In much the same way the binmen, lorry drivers, or shop staff do theirs. Yes, we are at risk more than the average citizen, but the reason for that has been well documented.
I hope I am not being cynical or ungrateful, just being honest.
274 Posted 24/04/2020 at 16:22:13
I will happily discuss face-to-face your "right", and all Americans' "rights", to own a gun as outlined by the Second Amendment. But would also discuss the original intent of that Amendment at the time it was written and compare with its use by people now to justify owning Weapons of Mass Destruction, i.e. automatic weapons of no use to anybody outside warfare but to shoot and kill as many people as possible. For hunting purposes? You are joking!
Don't I have a "right" to feel safe in this country without having to resort to guns to protect me and my family?
There are many reasons why I will not support Trump, and his total backing for the NRA is just one of them.
275 Posted 24/04/2020 at 16:59:12
Now Augustus was a Pommie
Who came from Pommieland
And every time you saw him
He had a lemonade in his hand
276 Posted 24/04/2020 at 17:03:39
Eric #223, not quite. Existing respiratory issues are a risk factor, but not the risk factor. Overweight and Type 2 diabetes are another category. A third is cancer, past or present. A 4th is Type 1 diabetes and other autoimmune issues. Cheers to your friend for his recovery -- that's how 90% of 65-year-olds make out. But lots of really fit people of all ages have died from this.
Conor #254 and Brian #258, nothing has been scientifically confirmed about herd immunity for this pestilence. It's assumed there will be some, but nothing is yet known about its incidence, degree or durability. Wuhan doctors have seen many hundreds of reinfections in fully recovered patients who should have been immune. Sweden has taken a gamble on it. We'll see if it works out.
Tony #212, cheers, my friend.
Chris #268, you a performer?
Jamie, why aren't they ever passive shooter situations?
Darren #233, for medicinal purposes only. Kills the virus. Tastes better than bleach.
277 Posted 24/04/2020 at 17:09:52
Chris #268, thanks for the tip, I shall do as you suggest. And try to get to one of your gigs when you are back up and running.
278 Posted 24/04/2020 at 17:14:57
Jamie, why aren't they ever passive shooter situations?
Because they have a gun and intend to do harm?
Hope that clears it up. 😂
You're on. I'll buy you a beer and we can chat about the 2nd Amendment. You'll be surprised, I'll probably agree with much of what you have to say. Cheers.
279 Posted 24/04/2020 at 17:38:58
Over there too? Thats a load off.
I had visions of all those crazies who support Trump, no matter how often he disrespects them, curling up in front the fire with a book and a large glass of Domestos.
280 Posted 24/04/2020 at 17:43:25
281 Posted 24/04/2020 at 17:49:50
When Alexander Lukashenko told his people that driving tractors and drinking plenty of Vodka (but not at work) would keep the virus away, I thought he had raised the bar of absurdity to a level even Trump couldn't reach.
Very naive of me to think Donald was not going to come firing back. I'll never overestimate him again!
282 Posted 24/04/2020 at 17:57:02
283 Posted 24/04/2020 at 18:06:38
Terry #274, of course you have that right. It's not in the Constitution, but it's certainly covered by "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." However, it does require a modicum of faith in the goodness of your fellow man. I learned as a kid to use a gun for home defense -- and have extensively trained in the use of hands, feet and blades -- because that faith isn't universal.
The problem is not with the Second Amendment, but the way it's been perverted. I've actually spoken with gun advocates who don't know or care that the words "keep and bear arms" are preceded by, and in fact dependent on, the words "well-regulated." People who own AKs aren't about hunting or defending their homes, because they're not going to be have entire street gangs beating down their doors at 4am. They're about a paranoiac view of the government coming to take away their rights. NRA people who carry in public aren't keeping themselves or society safe -- they're about showing the world they can do what they want. And they're about a certain sick worldview as well -- the most likely place remaining to find and buy widely-banned Nazi memorabilia is at an NRA gun show.
Happy to chat more with you and Jamie on this, since my views are likely somewhere in the middle between you.
284 Posted 24/04/2020 at 18:14:13
285 Posted 24/04/2020 at 18:25:07
286 Posted 24/04/2020 at 18:29:57
I've used my head a few times, but with the stuff inside it rather than the thick outer shell.
287 Posted 24/04/2020 at 18:49:52
I was targeted a few times in my younger years for my religious background, which incentivized me to learn what I learned. Fortunately the accumulated knowledge has very rarely been required, but when it was I was glad to have it.
288 Posted 24/04/2020 at 18:53:09
As a new Iris DeMent fan, she's been an eye-opener to me too. Amazed I missed her, delighted I was introduced on here.
Glad your friend had a great send-off. Simple kindness and decency is an underrated virtue. I hope his family took some comfort in the demonstration of respect and affection.
Love is All Around, in the words of the great Reg Balls!
289 Posted 24/04/2020 at 18:55:01
I watched it live. He said it, and trust me, it was not sarcastic at all -- he meant every word.
"Then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?"
Today, after the blowback, he claimed it was sarcasm. That's what he does.
290 Posted 24/04/2020 at 19:01:40
No it doesn't. And shockingly I don't disagree (much) with Mike's take on it all. There's two issues: ballistics and round capacity. The first is a very, very murky thing not worthy of discussion here. The second, I agree wholeheartedly with Mike. In America, you can buy 200-round "barrels" for your AR15. That's insane in my opinion. Don't tell most of my Florida buddies, they may shoot me.
You're on. I will also check out the brewery online. I'll leave the piece at home. Your roof, your rules.
291 Posted 24/04/2020 at 19:02:28
I was taught to box as a young boy, for self defence, by my dad and my uncle Billy, who was a decent amateur boxer in his day, around Liverpool. I kept it up for a while.
Like Mike, I've had to use it sparingly, and never because of religious bigotry, but I was glad to be able to fall back on it, on maybe 3 or 4 occasions.
That was enough thankfully.
292 Posted 24/04/2020 at 19:03:46
Oh yes, he did say it, in fact he was asking if it could be done and would it work.
The face on his medical expert as he spoke tells it all.
The man is a complete fuckin' dumpty!
293 Posted 24/04/2020 at 19:06:36
Tell your daughter to check her email. I just asked if I can buy their beer and they can ship it.
Very nice looking establishment. Shrimp and grits God thank you for shrimp and grits.
294 Posted 24/04/2020 at 19:11:54
I attach no credibility to anything Trump has to say, it's better if you just don't listen to him.
If the new order of politics is to just lie, and it is, all faith and belief in the system has gone. Why pay any attention to Trump or Johnson? The world has truly gone mad.
295 Posted 24/04/2020 at 19:16:56
296 Posted 24/04/2020 at 19:36:41
297 Posted 24/04/2020 at 20:01:51
Chris #288. The great thing was that this man was not a friend. Just a guy one would meet very occasionally, and he would make you feel like a friend. A marvellous gift.
Jamie #293. I've known Terry most of my life. He posts some nonsense on here, but he's okay. Pull me up a chair too, but I'll pass on the grits.
298 Posted 24/04/2020 at 20:42:47
299 Posted 24/04/2020 at 20:43:15
300 Posted 24/04/2020 at 20:45:34
I'm kinder than you
I hate the Tories more than you
I'm harder than you, I've got guns and I'm trained in martial arts
I've got a sadder story than you
I care about everyone, I'm a socialist
I've got family/friends who've had more tragic stories than you
I can use a scouse accent better than you "arl fella and all that shit"
I know every pub in Liverpool and I can give you a story about every one.
I'm a fuckin expert on all things Coronavirus.
I love John Prine (never heard of him before last week)
I love the NHS and have always supported them. (Not sure how)
I know so much about what's going wrong right now that I could sort it in hours.
I'm a a fully qualified epidemiologist. Well I'm not but I've looked at a couple of blogs.
Johnson and Trump are cunts. Corbyn could have done so much better.
The UK's shit. Other countries are so much better.
What a load of bollocks.
301 Posted 24/04/2020 at 20:53:41
302 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:00:55
As soon as it's over, I'm on (they don't normally have acts on so that's a tradition I'll probably maintain!!!). Be nice to meet you.
Stay Mighty!!! (When you watch Mary CC you'll know what I mean). Cheers. Chris
303 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:01:11
Paul @261 has it nearly right. It isn't, though, a "problem" that people keep supporting this wretched duo, it's a democratic fact. For so long as we all sit here congratulating ourselves on our superior moral awareness and ignoring the reasons why people vote against us then we will continue to be pointless bleaters.
What is required is a recovery of communal integrity, a proper valuation of the worth of individuals and human groupings set against the soul-destroying capitalist machine. We need to stop sneering and we need to rediscover a compelling case for socialism: it is about the fulfilment which will be the consequence of sharing our wisdom, craft and ingenuity, for the benefit of us all. New Trades Unions – Guilds even – with pride in ourselves; and a confident restatement of Clause 4.
Let's stop indulging ourselves to no effect.
304 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:13:09
Enough of this. Clive Thomas is a gobshite.
305 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:14:44
306 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:21:42
Johnson is good because he is. He just is. And if you don't support him, you're a leftie, remoaner metropolitan elite, blah blah.
I could see why people supported Thatcher. I couldn't stand her, but she had an agenda, she had rigour, she surrounded herself with able people. Johnson's a lying chancer, surrounding himself with lying incompetent chancers strong on cliche, very weak on policy. And I can't believe people can't see that, especially when two years ago, the Conservative Party said the same.
307 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:24:51
Leads to Domestos violence...
308 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:31:42
309 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:35:20
310 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:36:07
My point, is that, if we want to win, we need to tell our own story rather than taking the piss out of theirs.
311 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:41:33
As for Dave, a liar is a liar – no matter what side of the political divide he/she occupies. Recognising an issue is the first part of addressing the issue and hopefully those that voted for liars last time round will reconsider their decision and elect those who tend to tell the truth next time – and personally I'm not fussed which party they belong to.
312 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:41:41
313 Posted 24/04/2020 at 21:50:32
314 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:02:09
You couldn't be more right for my money. The ‘left' for sake of argument has done nothing but decry and whinge most of my life, and yes most of the time they've been right. However, where has it got them other than gasping for breath at altitude atop the moral mountain?!
People need a singular, hope filled message, not the denigration of the other lot. The ‘right' have managed it consistently even the idiot across the pond did it.
It's not enough to point out the others side's failings, that might stop people voting for them but it won't make them vote for you. Even at this rate, the left won't win the next election; the right will have lost it.
315 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:07:18
Stay safe everyone, this lockdown is hard, but we will all get through it hopefully.
316 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:14:22
"Trump and Johnson aren't the problem. People vote for them and continue to support them. That's the problem."
You mean the voting majority are the problem, Paul? Really? I'll cheer up when you stop writing shite like that.
Peter @304, No apology required. And he's not the only gobshite.
Saint Tony @305, You're almost certainly right. As always.
Andy @309, Noted. But there is a semblance of truth in what I said, don't you think, Andy?
317 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:21:49
318 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:25:21
Would you have seriously been more confident with John Mc and Dozy Di at the wheel? Really?
For what it's worth, I believe they're all liars. However, the Tories are far more professional at what they do. Sad but true, comrades.
319 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:28:01
320 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:37:31
It happened, boys. The majority voted that way. You're out of step.
Labour are finished.
Deal with it and move on.
321 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:44:16
322 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:45:02
If I want to know people's politics, I tend to ask them rather than tell them.
I'd have equipped the NHS in line with the 2016 pandemic report, for the same reason that I buy car, house and pet insurance that I hope I never need to use. Recent events have proved we had the money and it's always cheaper to pay in advance.
I also think they're all liars, so we've got plenty in common, eh?
323 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:47:26
Hmmm... revealing, Dave. Your take on the very broad range of topics and diverse opinions across any sort of divide you wish to attribute to them.
My take is that, once again thanks to the tolerance of the editors in these football-free times, that TW has really stepped up to the plate in recent weeks.
It has been educational, informative, entertaining, compassionate, side-splittingly funny and – unlike when football is being played – largely lacking in rancour or petty insults.
I include Charles's post @ 237 and Steve's @ 270 that you seemingly take particular umbrage at.
Both describe pretty accurately recent events. Charles gently parodies two national leaders whose public appearances and utterances frequently revert to parody.
As for 'humphing' about (presumed) political leanings, I confess at different times, issues and situations to being an anarchist, capitalist, despot, communist, conservative, democrat, environmentalist, fascist, feudalist, liberal, militarist, monarchist, nationalist, oligarch, republican, tribalist, and probably a few more besides. Often simultaneously.
I fancy I'm probably not alone in that.
324 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:50:37
325 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:53:04
326 Posted 24/04/2020 at 22:54:38
Cliches win campaigns, policy-making makes good government. They're brilliant at the first, poor at the second.
327 Posted 24/04/2020 at 23:36:17
Tony Joe White
328 Posted 24/04/2020 at 23:49:44
Paul. You're not fine with it. That's the problem. You cannot accept democracy.
Mike. A strange and disappointing response from you.
You're right Patrick.
Another Tony Blair will come along soon. God help us.
Jay, you think the posts I took 'umbrage at' were pretty accurate. I didn't. We'll agree to differ.
Paul again. You're really comparing buying pet insurance to what's happened here. Wow.
329 Posted 25/04/2020 at 00:11:47
"Jay, you think the posts I took 'umbrage at' were pretty accurate. I didn't. We'll agree to differ."
Exactly Dave. You're catching on.
330 Posted 25/04/2020 at 02:31:47
My first impression is shrimp and the rock salt mixture they spread on roads in the winter. My second is a nice chocolate hob-nob with my carrots and potatoes... two quick recipes / lists of ingredients will do to clarify matters.
Two Countries separated by a common language indeed.
331 Posted 25/04/2020 at 03:11:05
'For what it's worth, I believe they're all liars. However, the Tories are far more professional liars. Sad but true, comrades.'
332 Posted 25/04/2020 at 03:15:55
333 Posted 25/04/2020 at 04:13:41
334 Posted 25/04/2020 at 04:26:25
335 Posted 25/04/2020 at 06:44:50
Today is Anzac Day; it is a day of remembrance for all the New Zealand and Australian services who lost their lives in the defence of not just their nations but the motherland, the UK.
Normally there are commemorative services held all over the country that are packed; in the small communities and the large cities, lots of people remember. This year, the churches are empty, but take a walk down an ordinary street and poppies are painted on fences, on letterboxes and placards on the doors and windows.
This is a special day in the calendar most years but today there is the added poignancy of respect for the front line services as well, those who put their lives on the line, not just in New Zealand or in the UK and Australia, but around the world.
It's done with a good grace, empathy and respect and a genuine understanding that it's part of who they are. It's my second time round here; after so long away I had forgotten. How could I have done that? People used to laugh at me when I first went to live in New Zealand, said it was like going back in time 50 years. I realise now, it's not the trappings of life that make that so, but the attitude of the people.
These people are so determined, it's scary – not in a macho way, but in a common and united way. It's how they are built. It's why they excel and punch above their weight; it's why they believe they are winning. They are.
Oh, and I didn't miss that sarcasm from Derek, and as much as I could sit down and pen a detailed and honest view than he portrayed of its leader and its issues, I am not going to. It's Anzac Day. A day for thanking those who fought for all of us, who fight in front line services and have given their lives unselfishly. Respect to each and every Kiwi and Aussie... Thank you.
336 Posted 25/04/2020 at 07:09:25
Q1; Who isn't handling self-isolation very well?
Nominations on a piece of paper with an 'X' and we'll count them up later and announce the correct response.
"There's a bright golden haze in the meadow..."
337 Posted 25/04/2020 at 07:37:11
Dave B, I had to look up Saint Anthony, and realised he was the Patron Saint of the illiterate. I realised how much the press play a major part in deciding elections, just like the media play such an important part in helping to look after certain clubs in the Premier League, especially for people who can't think for themselves.
Jay W, I must be getting old because 'environmentalist' jumped right out in your very long list!
338 Posted 25/04/2020 at 08:50:27
The Nicaraguan President actually celebrated Corona Virus and has totally flouted the rule book and said it was a 'sign from God' against Militarism and hegemony.
His people has only suffered 2 deaths.
There is also research being done in France on nicotine as in China,USA and many other countries the number of covid suffers who are smokers and former smokers is apparently overwhelmingly disproportionate especially when you consider the disease is a respiratory one. They are guessing that smokers are four times less likely to contract it based on the numbers so far and are testing nicotine patches on health workers.
Unfortunately though before we all start championing all bad habits it is estimated that 2/3 of those who have sadly succumbed to this were overweight
It's a strange world we live in!!!
339 Posted 25/04/2020 at 08:56:53
I feel like someone tidying up the living room afterToffewebs party got very lively last night, but if anyone is scanning over this again this Morning give some time to post 273.
It is a very honest, but underrepresented opinion, particularly the point of the NHS pay rise being rejected and cheered.
340 Posted 25/04/2020 at 09:15:52
Phil, the word "hero" is used far too often and bizarrely, used many times in relation to multi-millionaires who kick a football for a living. You might not think so Phil, but anyone who knowingly puts themself at risk for the benefit of others every time they go to work is undoubtedly a hero in most people's eyes.
We may never meet, Phil, but I'll be raising my glass to you and your colleagues later today. I thank you all on behalf of all of us.
341 Posted 25/04/2020 at 09:45:36
I don't support Labour, Corbyn or any political party.
I do vote, I have strong views and I'm prepared to listen to any coherent argument that challenges them.
I passionately believe in democracy. That includes supporting all our institutions that scrutinise elected politicians and hold them to account.
I'll stand by my insurance analogy. I was asked 'What would you do?' My response was that I would have noted the government's own report and taken out the 'insurance' it recommended. This government chose not to do so. They were willfully negligent. The peace of mind insurance brings is always worth the money, regardless of whether it is needed, as it clearly was in this case.
Disagree with me by all means, but please disagree with what I actually say and think, not what suits your argument.
And thank you, Phil, for all your bravery, hard work and care. I appreciated your honest view from the front line.
342 Posted 25/04/2020 at 09:46:23
He was proud of that, but he despised Thatcher, and if he was alive today he would be writing to The Times and Echo about the disgraceful handling of the NHS over austerity, and the shame the country has to bare for electing those who seek to dismantle the NHS (Hunt) and those who lied to gain the power of government the UK now has.
But his ire would be for the Labour Party most of all for allowing it to happen. I speak regularly to my daughter in law who works in Shropshire at one of the hospitals, who has had to make do with minimal PPE and is working long hours because it's what she signed up for and she joys helping people. Like Phil, she does her job and has pride in it. Thank god for the thousands like her and Phil because, without them, it really would be the end of days.
A final point: many doctors and nurses and other front line staff work for a pittance, minimum wage in some cases. Many like my daughter in law come from overseas (New Zealand in fact) but changes to the visa regulations mean she has just been told she doesn't earn enough to stay and has to leave when her visa ends... she can apply for permanent residency but, without earning more money, she has to leave. It's the same story for thousands in the NHS, yet still, she goes to work only too well aware of the dangers she puts herself and her family into.
That's courage. Real courage. How do we reward it? By telling them they have a year's visa extension, while all this is going on of course... then they can go... booted out.
Yes, they cheered in parliament, shame on them.
343 Posted 25/04/2020 at 09:54:11
344 Posted 25/04/2020 at 09:56:57
345 Posted 25/04/2020 at 10:50:36
To quote Billy Connoly if someone says they want to be a politician that should be reason enough to preclude them ever being a politician.
Mind the likes of Dominic Cummings is proving you don't have to be elected to wield power in political circles. Strange really as he was the architect for the saying take back control from the unelected bureaucrats in the European council. We now find that he and Palmer another Johnson crony is sitting in on the Sage committee meetings, which are supposed to be made up of medical and scientific people. So when at every press conference each minister says we are being led by the science, maybe they should add if Cummings agrees with it we do. I see England's chief medical officer Chris Witty has said he would like the government to say who attends Sage meetings. Maybe he would like it to be known that maybe all their advice isn't being followed, and he wants everybody to know just who maybe influencing these Sage decisions.
I here this morning that different press sources are saying the government is considering ways that football could start again, really???. So they are asking people to please keep your social distance, but quite happy to see footballers pulling and shoving and banging their heads together while competing for a ball in the air. There were some ideas that all the players could have tests to make sure they didnt have the virus, as well as the officials and others who would come into contact with the players. So its OK to test footballers but we havent got enough tests to test all NHS and care workers. Do they really think that the British people would accept that, when hundreds are dying every day and the government want to restart football matches. Again this has Cummings hands all over this give the public a distraction like football it will take their minds off the dying.
346 Posted 25/04/2020 at 11:00:41
347 Posted 25/04/2020 at 11:11:29
348 Posted 25/04/2020 at 11:18:46
Yup, Bread and Circuses!
The Guardian, who broke the Cummings story has published a list of the Sage attendees too.
349 Posted 25/04/2020 at 12:11:00
It looks like he was trying to blind the audience with science or maybe hypnotise them but didnt seem to have any sort of personality that would hold your interest or make you want to listen to him again, or maybe he was just too clever for me.Bored me stiff to be honest, but thanks very much for the link Patrick.
350 Posted 25/04/2020 at 12:13:50
351 Posted 25/04/2020 at 13:37:17
As usual with someone like you, I don't really need to respond as you predictably made an absolute arse of yourself in subsequent posts. Give em enough rope eh?
352 Posted 25/04/2020 at 13:46:09
353 Posted 25/04/2020 at 15:48:10
Phil #273, I've been pondering for almost a day my response to your post and its matter-of-fact modesty. I do truly understand your point about it not being heroic to just show up and do the job you signed up for, and my niece treating Covid-19 patients in Tel Aviv would agree, as would most of the doctors and nurses at the Ground Zeroes in Wuhan and New York.
But I hope you can understand why the rest of us may see things from a somewhat different perspective. Yes, you signed up to do a job, but you didn't sign up to risk your life to do it, or to have that risk increased by the unavailability of proper masks and protective gear, a shortage that is quite literally killing medical professionals in Brooklyn today. The mortality rate for doctors in Wuhan was staggering -- the one who first reported the virus eventually died of it, as did the director of the first hospital to take in mass numbers of virus patients. Yet their colleagues kept clocking in for 20-hour days and separating from their families for weeks at a time, as thousands of health providers have been doing this month in NYC.
I'm afraid you'll have to excuse the rest of us for seeing heroism in that. And for thanking you for it.
354 Posted 25/04/2020 at 16:33:25
It's probably of little interest to most but let me try and explain my current thinking, scrupulously attempting to avoid sarcasm and personal insults.
I believe a lot of you guys are missing the mood of the country. We don't want blame, we don't want argument as if this were a General Election, we want a contribution to the national effort to get us out of this crisis. We want hope optimism and faith in our country. We need less negativity.
There are people I usually enjoy reading who frequently make interesting points but who are, in my view, doing themselves little justice simply because of their hostility to the Government because they voted for someone else at the last election or because they voted Remain in 2016.
Too many keyboard enthusiasts who skim a few medical journals and blogs and then think they are qualified to tell the rest of us what should be done. They go from one extreme to another and pretend to have a knowledge that they don't.
I think some are influenced by 24-hour news programmes full of relentless negativity. They pick up on one issue, such as ventilators, go with that for a few days... and then obsess about Personal Protective Equipment. Next, we get comparisons between countries. This country has more deaths than that country as if it is some sort of Olympic medal table.
Why can't you get PPE? Because everyone else in the world wants it too. But shouldn't you have prepared? Would you like to apologise for your failure?
Worst of all are the daily press briefings. We listen to some of the best minds in the country explaining to us what is being done and why, only to have a series of ignorant childish questions from journalists trying to score political points and trip up a minister. I don't know about you but I have to switch off when we get to that point.
One of the first things I learnt in history is that people make mistakes. Faced with unprecedented situations they make lots of mistakes.
But no allowance is given by the mainstream media. I'm convinced that, If we had had the modern journalist profession in 1940, we would have lost the war. They would have complained about the Government's disastrous mistakes at Narvik. It should have known that the Maginot Line wouldn't work.
Journalists would have demanded that Churchill should have been immediately sacked for the defeat at Dunkirk. They would have described our situation as hopeless and would have ridiculed our ability to fight them on the beaches and would have said it was mere arrogance to suppose that our pathetic little country could have a finest hour. After all the Germans do everything so much more efficiently than we do.
They would have listed all the mistakes our country had made and called it 'insight'. The majority of the British people, however, would not have listened to them then, just as most don't read them now. Newspapers are going out of business. They deserve to.
There's so much good stuff on here. So many passionate articulate correspondents. In my opinion, just as a small sample, Mike Gaynes, Jamie Crowley and Jay Wood BRZ are all modern-day Alastair Cookes and the Abrahams boys are scouse nuggets. (And that isn't what I had for dinner last night, Mike; if you're genuinely interested it was fresh cod with triple cooked chips and no, I tossed none of it.)
355 Posted 25/04/2020 at 17:03:42
Your post @300 makes perfect sense to me. I'm not a Tory – far from it – but I agree with everything thing you say. My favourite being “The UK's shit. Other countries are so much better”.
356 Posted 25/04/2020 at 17:09:19
357 Posted 25/04/2020 at 17:22:59
The more we stay at home, the more we are inclined to go on news channels, either on TV or on the internet. The problem with this is that there is absolutely no good news anywhere, and this is leading to so much negativity, imo, Dave.
I rarely listen to the news anymore, but it's on now and Carragher has just been talking about finishing the Premier League. Fair enough, until he uses the word 'integrity'... how dare he use such a word at a time like now for justification?
Does integrity = money, or does money = integrity? Especially when the owners showed a complete lack of integrity until they listened to the fans!
Listen to Chris Williams, simply because he knows how to lighten the mood with music!
358 Posted 25/04/2020 at 17:31:37
However, you may want to consider asking people what their political views are rather than telling them. You may also want to consider the very clear difference between looking for accountability and relentless negativity... analogy and comparison... hostility and incredulity.
Give your own opinion by all means. Counter other posters' points to your heart's content, but please, ditch the strawman arguments. There`s enough genuine debate on this thread without anybody feeling the need to invent more.
359 Posted 25/04/2020 at 17:33:58
Whilst I welcome your less abrasive approach in this response, I do feel that you are advocating that only one perspective shoud be taken, ie, Support the Government – regardless of their decisions; suppress the press – because it can't be trusted; and keep your mouths shut – keep calm and carry on. This to me is the very antithesis of being a free country.
I have seen nothing but deserved praise offered to those trying to save lives whilst risking their own, whether they be Doctors, Nurses, Drivers, Shopworkers etc etc. None of the posts on the various threads claim to have the required knowledge to 'solve' the pandemic, rather many of us are merely articulating our fears and trying to understand what is happening to our fellow citizens and how best to keep ourselves and our families safe.
The adherence to this new way of living is testimony to the fact that the country is together – regardless of political persuasion or any other aspect that usually divides us, that to me offers some hope for the future.
I'm an Evertonian and wouldn't want anybody to persuade me to support any other club, I don't see politics that way or indeed any other aspect of my life, therefore I'm open to persuasion and argument but I don't want people to dictate to me what and who I should favour.
If you want to have a go at those undermining 'Britain' have a word with the farmers who seem to see the British worker as lazy and unproductive – despite thousands of them applying to do the jobs that need doing, very few of them have been taken on.
360 Posted 25/04/2020 at 17:52:01
Thing is you have your opinion and outlook and other have theirs. Nobody enjoys being told theirs is wrong and they haven't got a clue, which is more or less what you did with your earlier posts.
Everybody feels strongly in one direction or another, respect the ones that don't align with yours and try'n not to talk down to people. Nobody likes that, least of all Scousers (and before you jump in Mr Abrahams, I know, I know). Baaaaah.
361 Posted 25/04/2020 at 18:03:49
362 Posted 25/04/2020 at 18:18:38
Just voicing my thoughts boys. As have you. Not forcing it on anyone.
Oh and Brian, don't tell me about Scousers. Toxteth born and raised.
363 Posted 25/04/2020 at 18:24:47
It's great looking at clips of people coming back out of critical care, and when you Americans, do something properly, you're up there with the best. I loved the hospital in New York, blasting “Here Comes The Sun” over the tannoy every time somebody pulls through because it's beautiful that, especially with so much bad news around.
My biggest fear is Trump, and my biggest disappointment is how the fuck-n-hell we ended up with Boris Johnson in charge of our country, and that was before this virus was anywhere near us.
I've met some idiots in my life, I've been an idiot myself at times, but Boris Johnson... Boris Fiucking Johnson, is a cringeworthy fucking idiot, and I've seen more common sense in a rocking horse.
Never been a cure for a Coronavirus, Mike? That's the spirit mate, keep saying it... because somebody is going to win the biggest race of them all soon –hopefully mate!
364 Posted 25/04/2020 at 18:42:07
Contrary to some opinion, I'm not a Tory either. Thanks for your support pal.
Where do you stand on Gove? And don't say on his head.
365 Posted 25/04/2020 at 19:13:47
I read the exact same argument on a Facebook repost of a right-wing blogger. You can come on here and talk about Dunkirk and how we should support the government if you want but I can't agree with you. If I haven't done my job, I get in trouble. The government haven't done their job and now they are in trouble.
You can tell people to ignore the death toll. You can tell people that it's not the government's fault nurses don't have PPE. You can tell people that it's the press's job to support the government and catch the mood of the people and not ask questions about why so many people are dying here.
Would you tell that to the families and friends of the people who've died? If so, carry on. If not, wind your neck in.
366 Posted 25/04/2020 at 20:00:41
It's happened... I can't believe how! This is the man who told the Italians that they would sell less Prosecco after Brexit, and they said we know – but only to one country; you'll be selling less fish & chips to loads of us!
Nothing to do with conservatives, Dave. If he had an ounce of true leadership, I'd be delighted to have him in charge in this hour of need but I don't think he has.
I said before he got Coronavirus that I wished it was Andy Shack whose hand he'd tried to shake, because I couldn't believe how ridiculous it was for a prime minister to be walking round shaking everyone's hand when the message was already: "Keep washing your hands." Although I'm glad that Boris never succumbed to this horrible virus, like so many unlucky people have.
367 Posted 25/04/2020 at 20:01:34
There's ways to voice your opinion, mate, and the way you did it obviosuly didn't go well with a fair few. That should tell you something. None of your posts personally bothered me but I can easily understand why they would others.
If you can't see that, that's your problem – not theirs. 👍
368 Posted 25/04/2020 at 20:24:04
"Thing is you have your opinion and outlook and others have theirs." — Bit obvious, Brian. That's what forums are all about.
"Nobody enjoys being told theirs is wrong and they haven't got a clue which is more or less what you did with your earlier posts." — As you are doing with me, Brian.
"Everybody feels strongly in one direction or another, respect the one's that don't align with yours and try'n not to talk down to people."— Hmmm... As you are doing with me Brian.
"Nobody likes that, least of all Scousers (and before you jump in, Mr Abrahams, I know, I know). Baaaaah." — I've done the scouser thing earlier so let's leave that.
Brian, I imagine you're a really nice guy and I appreciate you think you're giving me sound advice. But sadly I'm not 12.
369 Posted 25/04/2020 at 20:28:38
There's a petition on the go via 38 Degrees, a not for profit campaign group, seeking to enshrine protection for NHS in law. I've signed and hope other TWers will also do so.
Just Google 38 Degrees, go to the petition, and sign.
371 Posted 25/04/2020 at 20:56:20
Boris was not a bad London Mayor (helluva lot better than the present incumbent, I would suggest).
During his 8 years in charge of the British capital, he cut crime, exceeded house-building targets, and was at the centre of the London 2012 Olympics.
There were negatives but, for me, they were outweighed by the positives. Livingstone was mediocre at best and Khan is bordering on useless.
But I guess we have this Tory/Labour thing in everything Liverpool. It's a mirror of EFC v LFC.
372 Posted 25/04/2020 at 20:57:26
It took you 9 posts, but you finally got there. All your previous posts in this thread contributed nothing to the many diverse sub-themes other than to petulantly ridicule, mock and make presumptions about others political affiliations.
I think you flatter yourself if you think you were the recipient of a hostile response as a result of your bleating post @ 300.
Rather, you got off lightly. You were indulged in and gently mocked rather than taken seriously.
You justified your bleat @ 300 to Andy Crooks as 'having a semblance of truth'.
That 'truth' is yours, Dave. It amounts to opinion and is not universal.
You now say 'Just voicing my thoughts boys. As have you. Not forcing it on anyone.'
Repeating a phrase I used earlier: Exactly Dave. You're catching on. Others are doing exactly the same. They are just not in sync with your world view.
As for your post @ 354, thanks for the rallying cry to get behind the country, government, party, prime minister, whoever or whatever. But I prefer to put my trust in having an inquisitive nature to research and check news reports and claims by elected politicians rather than take their headlines or soundbites at face value. I value posters who do likewise, rather than those given to telling us 'youse is all wrong – think like me!'
373 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:14:48
374 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:15:40
Thanks for your patronising comments.
I am currently baking sausage rolls but will return later and attempt to earn your 'congratulations.'
375 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:18:38
I'll do detention.
376 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:21:51
When I lived in New Zealand, a lot of the Kiwis who had been to Liverpool told me they thought it was a strange place and I used to be really baffled and bemused by people saying that about my home town.
I grew up in “Thatcher's Britain” and always felt that the reason she hated Liverpool was not because of Hatton's Labour, but because of the backing scousers gave to the Yorkshire Miners.
Family Snapshot, the song about the assassination of Kennedy, and sung by Peter Gabriel, has a line that says, “If you don't get given, you learn to take” and that's how it was for scousers during the Thatcher years, imo.
I'm going round the world to say the Kiwis were wrong, Liverpool isn't a strange place, but it was, during that era, a very tense fucking place. Although I stopped going to inner city London years ago, it was before Boris Johnson became Mayor of London and I had already begun to feel that same tension in our wonderful capital city that I'd felt was normal when I was a child growing up in Liverpool.
So, if Boris reduced crime, I'd say well done, but I'd also say he was just delaying the inevitable because, “with too many people and not enough stuff to go round” (who sang those lyrics? Land of confusion maybe?) I always felt London, was going to eventually explode.
Seriously, Dave, do you reckon Boris would last long around serious scousers? Because I don't think he'd last over an hour if the gloves were really off and he had to really stand up and prove himself away from the comforts of his very sheltered middle/upper class upbringing.
What's a serious scouser? Someone you don't get away with telling lies or talking bollocks to, people who see you coming from Birkenhead!
377 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:29:32
'Thanks for your patronising comments.'
A Scouser without a sense of irony.
Who would've thunk it?
378 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:37:28
Jezza was surrounded by numbskulls and I had little faith in his ability to organise anything.
I'm not into this Labour/Tory hatred thing that seems prevalent in Liverpool. I have little faith in most politicians but if ever there was a time for a solid leader to emerge, God knows it's now.
379 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:40:15
Still on me sausage rolls.
380 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:45:15
Them's sausage rolls I can smell burning.
381 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:47:58
382 Posted 25/04/2020 at 21:55:31
I've seen his health and care ministers being absolutely destroyed by Piers Morgan, so I hope his other ministers are better, otherwise he's learned not a thing off Jezza?
If scousers hate and distrust the Tories, then it's not without good reason, but maybe things are about to change because they actually gave Merseyside something recently, the suspected Coronavirus patients were sent to be quarantined at Arrow Park Hospital, and probably only because the new Royal Hospital is only about three years behind with its opening date!
383 Posted 25/04/2020 at 22:12:11
384 Posted 25/04/2020 at 23:47:35
385 Posted 25/04/2020 at 23:58:58
This is fact and is confirmed in official papers from the 80s.
A good summary:
Your glorious leader, Mr Johnson, was also at least partly responsible for a hatchet job on the city (in The Spectator, if I remember correctly).
Are your prejudices so great that you're prepared to embrace the party that genuinely doesn't give two shiny shites about this fantastic city or its people?
386 Posted 26/04/2020 at 00:27:39
Agree with your comment. If ever there was a time for a solid leader to emerge, God knows it is now. Problem is England don't have one. They have a Trump clone with unruly hair if that is who you mean.
387 Posted 26/04/2020 at 07:39:19
I suppose we could, as advocated by some, use the war option and train people for three weeks, give them guns and send them off to kill people while the crime rate at home went through the roof.
Oh, and I vote Green as they seem to see something as more important than Big Business and the Economy. Can anyone tell me if it is still the case that if Britain's spending on Education and Health was added together and multiplied by five then you would have what is spent on Defence?
Meanwhile, back at the Rumour Mill...
388 Posted 26/04/2020 at 08:58:41
Dave's right about Johnson cutting crime as London Mayor – but it fell everywhere else too. I'd argue that Johnson was politically different to the current model, but that's by the by, and might change after his illness.
Johnson's strength is his positivity. Most people have little or no interest in politics and will generally respond better to the positive person than the negative one. That's why Attlee, Wilson & Blair are the only post-war Labour winners.
History tells us that, in times of crisis, most people are more likely to support, rather than question their leaders. That comes later when the dust settles and people make a more factual judgement on all sides. So I'd agree with Dave that right now, Johnson has the mood of England with him. Let's see if it lasts.
I'm not convinced all of this is a left-right issue. I have Tory friends appalled by this iteration of their party and the Corbynite left largely supported Brexit.
Dave, you didn't offend me at all, I actually respect you for standing your ground. Like most of us, you talk some sense and bollocks and I'd argue we agree on plenty, especially 24-hour news! It's a shame some call you a Tory and 'not a proper Scouser' – that doesn't help anyone.
We need more thought and nuance in the world, Things aren't always completely right or wrong. Let's disagree well!
389 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:07:58
New, previously unreleased Dylan track on YouTube: Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight.
Mark Knopfler in the backing band, and maybe at Muscle Shoals.
For those who like Townes Van Zandt, interesting version of Pancho and Lefty by Dylan and Willie Nelson... Dylan speaks!
I was only looking for a song by Hamish Imlach, called Cod Liver Oil and the Orange Juice, for my playlist. Very funny and for those of a certain age.
Back to the serious stuff now, and I see Boris is back tomorrow to lead us all to the promised land, according to the puppet press. I bet he doesn't take a chance on a Piers Morgan interview, and he'll resume his game show host role, or do a Trump and take a back seat.
Exercise Cygnus is getting a bit of an airing. This was an exercise in 2016 involving members of the public and public services etc simulating an Influenza pandemic and how we would cope which had disastrous results and was so bad the outcome was never released... doctors threatening legal action unless those results are released.
This is in the non-puppet press, or The Observer as it's sometimes called, at least on Sundays. Also in the Telegraph apparently. The Barclay Brothers must be too engrossed in suing each other to notice. Twins eh?
It's all bubbling under.
390 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:12:08
I'll get me coat...
391 Posted 26/04/2020 at 09:16:05
Judging by the look of him in the video, he might have fitted in nicely.
Great song, though, and a very good guitarist, as well as Scrabble genius.
392 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:15:26
Does anyone even care???
393 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:24:56
394 Posted 26/04/2020 at 11:33:09
395 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:04:59
The jury is out on BoJo but what happens in the next few weeks will determine if he took the right advice. For what it's worth, I think/hope he did.
The Tory/Scouse thing rolls right off my back although I left Liverpool some 35 years ago and, although my heart's still there, I guess you could call me an ex-pat. To my shame, this is the first year since I left that I haven't got back for at least one game at Goodison and sadly it looks likely that will be the case for this year at least.
Whichever way, thanks again and stay positive and safe.
396 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:09:30
397 Posted 26/04/2020 at 13:49:39
Shrimp and Grits – it's a southern dish with "prawns" and, er, grits.
Shrimp, grits, garlic, green onions, sometimes sausage in there, cajun spices.
They are absolutely wonderful. Must be eaten in moderation, the food has a tendency of "sticking to you."
I've kept checking for news on Sweden as well. Interesting and fairly neutral story here:
Without rehashing everything, I think their approach was a calculated risk that has worked well, despite a higher death rate than their Nordic neighbors. There is where I think the difference of opinion lies.
Wash your hands. Don't "pull a Moise Kean".
398 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:21:54
Could there be pressure / incentives on companies to return to making their products in local factories given that the local economy would have high unemployment? Rather that outsourcing their production to other countries?
I read there has been some criticism of farmers importing foreign workers while there are Brits in need of income. So I was thinking maybe countries will become more insular in the short- to medium-term in order to get their core business back on track? Either morally inspired or government incentivised?
399 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:24:18
I suspect their health service is pretty well stocked & funded – you 'Mericans would pass out at the tax rates there!
400 Posted 26/04/2020 at 14:40:33
The agriculture recruiters went back to their existing pool of experienced, skilled Romanian workers for starters, but also reported that only around 10% of the Brits that showed initial interest actually applied for the work.
401 Posted 26/04/2020 at 16:57:16
If you're genuinely curious about how and what the Government can do with money, then you need to understand how modern central banking works. How does Trump or Boris Johnson just spend a few trillion when they really need to? Where does it come from and when and how will it be paid back?
Why do places like Venezuela, Argentina and Greece run out of money and why do places like Japan and the US seem to have an infinite credit card?
Without doing an economics degree, the quickest and simplest way to understand how macroeconomics works is to just get on YouTube and watch someone who understands it explain it. When you've watched enough of it that it starts to make sense, then you've arrived.
I'd recommend watching some lectures from Stephanie Kelton who explains how Modern Monetary Theory actually works and why it can pay for stuff we haven't budgeted for – like defeating Nazism or fighting a pandemic.
As for Ms Foster, I merely shake my head. I'm a New Zealander, born and bred. Your romanticized view of the nation is yours to have and to hold, but the reality is very very different.
Sarcasm? Well, when someone travels the breadth of the Earth then writes "The ability for this aggressive spread has its routes in airline travel, globalisation" it's hard for me to take them seriously at all.
It's similarly hard for me to believe that the Anzacs were charging the Turkish snipers so that, one day, a middle-aged ex-scouser could wander around Nelson and exhort it as a utopia.
You do you, Ms Foster, is my advice. Pretending your reality is also everybody else is a great way to rationalize things. But it won't get you much further than yourself.
402 Posted 26/04/2020 at 19:59:21
Really interesting and delighted you've signed up. How'd you become a blue?
Realistic to hear from a native of New Zealand that all is not sunshine and roses and you confirmed what I've previously read about the Premier situation there.
The grass is not always greener.
403 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:32:05
The bitterness seeps out of every word you write. Your reality is not mine, I too have travelled the world, lived in many countries... while every country has its good, bad and ugly bits, on the whole, I am more than happy to return here.
Life is what you make it. I have learnt to appreciate nowhere is Utopia, but some places are as good as you can get. But nastiness such as yours is borderless, you may not like my view of life in New Zealand but it does not give you the licence to ridicule in such an offensive manner. Wow..
404 Posted 26/04/2020 at 22:53:20
405 Posted 27/04/2020 at 04:51:28
But what appetite will the Japanese car makers have for keeping factories open in UK? Maybe they will mothball them until better times, or consolidate European production in one country? It's a pity UK doesn't have it's own car makers any more. Or most other manufacturing industries that fuelled the building of the nation.
406 Posted 27/04/2020 at 07:28:54
In that book the poverty-stricken but self-educated socialist house painter Owen explained
The Great Money Trick - Link
The other character in the book that sticks in my memory is “the man with the scar on his face” in chapter 48. Perhaps because he reminds me a little bit of myself.
My dad (God rest his soul) was like Christine's dad – they would have gotten on really well I suspect. I love and miss my father very much because although he was far from perfect, he was an intrinsically good man and he really would have given you his "second coat" if he had two and you needed one.
However, my view is that at this point in history, men like him and Christine's dad have been betrayed by the so-called leaders of the "socialist movement" around the world. I have lived in Australia since 1973 and haven't seen one I trust here since Bob Hawke. Having said that, Michael Albanese has promise.
However I digress. Back to “The Great Money Trick”. For it to work, you will need 4 key ingredients:
The raw materials
The means of production
And, last but not least, mone
In the light of this, rather than look at New Zealand politics I would prefer to take stock of the current situation in my adopted country (which I love and am proud to be a part of even though somewhere deep down inside of me I am still a "wacker" from Birkenhead).
Raw materials – we have got them coming out of our ears, what would you like? Iron ore, Uranium, Coal, etc we have got loads of the stuff.
Means of production – our car, clothing, timber, rail and tram manufacture industries have been decimated. Heavy steel and ship-building industries are under severe pressure.
Labour – we have people who need (and want) to work but the people with “the money” would rather spend it where they can get “more bang for their buck”.
Money – the greatest threat to this and every other country, the Chinese Communist Party, have cottoned on to how the trick works.
And this wasn't a very good idea was it?
And also, they are surrounding us, and they are using money to do it.
Wake up Australia! - and the rest of the world because we have got loads of (with apologies for the capitals) RAW MATERIALS.
407 Posted 27/04/2020 at 07:41:44
408 Posted 27/04/2020 at 11:05:13
I knew about their influence in developing countries in Africa, India, Sri Lanka and saw it first hand in Maldives. I didn't know they had a foothold in developed countries that should know better though.
409 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:13:41
Daily, I've been sitting out in the backyard throughout all this to get my Vitamin D dose, indulging in reading paper-based books.
But I am close to exhausting my stock and was already thinking of turning to Kindle digital books (which don't offer the same reading pleasure of the printed word on paper and the turning of a page).
Robert Tressel's 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists' is DEFINITELY going to get re-visited by me this week, thanks to your link.
Good on yer Laurie!
410 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:19:34
They are on the move - the same thing is happening in South America.
Fortunately I think our government are on to them. Our treasurer has just made it compulsory that no foreign investment from $0 up will be allowed unless he signs off on it.
We are in for some fireworks when they start easing off then ending the lockdowns around the world.
411 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:31:26
What Robert Tressel wrote about all those years ago still applies today. He was buried in a paupers grave facing Walton gaol until a few years ago when a Liverpool Labour group buried him in a proper grave, with a very fitting headstone, along with a few more people, whose names are all engraved on the gravestone.
Enjoy the book, Jay, having read the book you will see again quite a few people you have met in your life, good and bad, with the percentage of them bad.
412 Posted 27/04/2020 at 12:40:09
It will be coming off the bookshelf tomorrow.
413 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:17:25
Along with Khalil Gibran's 'The Prophet', Tressel's tome is probably the most gifted book I have given others as a present. Neither book has ever left the recipient of my gift unmoved or indifferent.
I knew he was buried in Liverpool, but I wasn't aware of the Labour Party's initiative in giving him a much deserved decent burial, so thanks for that, Dave.
414 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:20:46
That's how I was reading it at the time, with “divide and conquer” definitely the greatest trick, but maybe I was wrong and I never gave the book enough time?
415 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:25:12
Like all good reads, it has some positive outcomes at the end and no little serving of something we are all in need of, now and always.
416 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:36:31
Lauries link, to the foreign investment, go left, one of the top fellas saying he wont be downloading the government Coronavirus app, onto his phone, because he doesnt trust them enough?
Scary to think in these testing times, maybe not the greatest, but possibly the latest trick?
What a song, der reh reh reh der reh der reh reh reh der Reh!
417 Posted 27/04/2020 at 13:50:33
That's why I believe (as George would say) that Tressel was a Blue!
418 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:07:16
419 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:34:02
Have a look at The Plot Against America, by Philip Roth. Hes been one of my favourite writers since the 60s but I missed this one. I read it near the end of last year, and written years ago, so way before Trump.
I think I read theyre making a TV series out of it, showing later this year.
420 Posted 27/04/2020 at 14:49:24
I am still running Yellow House (Link) on a daily basis, 7 days per week, online stuff and today at 12:00 with our group we held an online debate about "universal basic income". Fascinating to hear young people's views... working-class kids who still firmly believe in the "system". Would anybody be interested in a Zoom Meeting so that we can say "Hello" to each other? I could, I think, make the arrangements.
Cosmic Blue Grooves All The Way! George
421 Posted 27/04/2020 at 15:23:29
422 Posted 27/04/2020 at 15:59:31
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