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1 Posted 16/08/2019 at 00:35:36
2 Posted 16/08/2019 at 00:46:49
3 Posted 16/08/2019 at 01:27:46
4 Posted 16/08/2019 at 01:52:31
It's too upsetting to think of saying goodbye to Goodison to dream of a new version. It'd be like fantasising about your next girlfriend before she's even contemplated running off with the postman.
5 Posted 16/08/2019 at 03:28:29
I don't think Sunderland used it when they built the Stadium of Light as it would have made it stand out as only Sunderland could play there - Roker Park had the red criss-cross design.
It must be unique and whenever an image is used everybody would know thats EFC's stadium.
6 Posted 16/08/2019 at 07:57:39
But we have to be careful. Goodison is Goodison, the legacy proposals provide for it to remain so, but in a different form. We do not want a pastiche at the new ground, which could happen if we try to incorporate too many peoples wishes. What do they say, “a camel is a horse designed by a committee”.
Having listened to Dan Meis, I think he is probably too sharp for that. I do have a slight concern that if Dan is novated to become employed by the contractor, his allegiance immediately shifts to his new employer, who have their own agenda. Personally, I would prefer for him to remain fully and firmly in the client camp.
Also, there is the concept of “value engineering”, where the contractor identifies potential cost savings then takes a cut of such. The argument for this is that it is a “win/win”, but there is always a danger that too much compromise is made. Its not unusual for new buildings, especially by the sea, to look very bright and shiny when new, only to become rather forlorn-looking a few years later. Its going to be important to ensure top quality materials are used. I guess if we can find someone who makes decent steel it will be a start.
7 Posted 16/08/2019 at 09:03:27
Ive been sitting here on holiday in Canada looking at the images much more closely and I have spotted a few things I dont like such as the corners at pitch level where seats are replaced by spaces for who knows what or who. I also dont like the exit vomitories so close to the pitch, they should be further back so they dont break up the crowd close to the action ( Spurs have avoided this ).
I also think the ‘ main stand looks very ‘bitty and I was hoping for this to be 3 levels to kind of mirror the feel of Goodison which he has obviously tried to follow.
Whatever logos or lettering you put in the seats wont make it instantly recognisable as Everton when its full of fans and I think we do need to add something. I definitely agree with others about the balcony walls having Leitch crosses. To me this is the obvious thing to do. Either permanent or on the computer screen walls that they appear to have used in the images with multiple Everton crests so far. Alternatively, a modern take is glass walls with crosses etched on to them.
Id also like to see the Tower in there somewhere, perhaps on the roof as a feature, a bit like Spurs and their cockerel. In fact we can learn a lot from Spurs ( on and off the pitch ) just now. I know a lot of Spurs fans and they all love their new stadium. That design took in a lot of fan feedback and whilst I think the exterior of BMD has been pretty much nailed, I think the inside needs more careful ‘detail work for us to find it replaces Goodison in our hearts.
8 Posted 16/08/2019 at 09:03:27
There's a very fine line between a nod to the past and wallowing in nostalgia. I love Goodison as much as the next Evertonian and have been going there for over fifty years but time moves on and so should we (IMO).
Give this generation, and the next, a stadium to be proud of and one that's up to date in every way.
I think the red brick facade is enough of a nod to the past on an ultra modern design and I fear sticking on bits from Goodison would be akin to sticking the Ford badge from your old Cortina on a brand new Jag.
9 Posted 16/08/2019 at 09:21:05
Being completely honest the ground meant a lot and the new one will, but what made the ground was the people inside it, Ive travelled all around England watching the Blues and always felt proud to be part of the supporters who made ourselves heard in great stadiums and ramshackle grounds, the fans made the stadium no matter what sort we were in, so I never get that much bothered about the stadiums but ultimately what the team does when it gets out there, nothing against sentiment but once Ive seen Bramley- Moore arena Ill settle into it no matter what it looks like.
10 Posted 16/08/2019 at 09:42:55
11 Posted 16/08/2019 at 09:57:54
In a word mate, no!
And in a few more. This mythical weather that the river front is supposed to suffer is just that, mythical.
It's no better or worse than anywhere else in the area, and I've yet to experience this gale force wind that haunts the river.
Yes there's been strong winds there just as there has been throughout the area at the time.
12 Posted 16/08/2019 at 10:01:07
Whatever it is that is needed, I agree with Brian@8 that it should not hark back to the past too much, since at the end of the day it's youngsters who become Evertonians and ultimately the whole thing is for the future and our desired successes.
When I started going to the match in 1961, I loved Goodison straight away, and feel that part of that was the criss-crosses on the stands. On photos, they tell you immediately what place it is, underlining the uniqueness. I think an analogous symbol is needed for the new stadium, not the same as the criss-crosses, but uniquely telling us what ground it is.
That photo of Goodison Road takes me back. It's obviously the team parading a trophy. At first I thought it was the 69-70 title, but then realised that was a night game (against West Brom). Anybody any ideas?
13 Posted 16/08/2019 at 10:03:47
I used to stand where the photo was taken from.
I'm sure it was the last game of the season against Fulham when we got the 63 league title
14 Posted 16/08/2019 at 10:24:06
15 Posted 16/08/2019 at 10:33:05
When I started going to the match in 1961, I loved Goodison straight away,
I know exactly what you mean. My Dad was a red and my first game was at Mordor, I hated it. Went to Goodison and felt like I was home
Just hope the new ground will have the same feel, am sure it will. It will help us in getting back to the top of tree.
16 Posted 16/08/2019 at 10:41:29
However Im pretty underwhelmed by the interior. Dan talked of evoking Goodison, but I dont see it. The single tier home end, lesser opposite end and the sides as proposed are more of a nod to the current version of our original home.
I dont want that. I want a ground as unique and recognisable on the inside as it is from the outside. I also want it to be the best for the match goer.
For me the best sight lines at Goodison are from the upper Bullens. I would have liked to see him design a stadium with the top tiers projected over the lower tiers without the stanchions and obstructed views.
Im not as concerned about the Archibald Leitch crosses (theyre a nice nod incorporated in the exterior brickwork) as I am about the way he designed the corner of the Street end to the Bullens. Any image of that and you can instantly tell its Goodison. Id like to see a modern take on that design.
If Dan is able to project the top tiers over the lower tiers and incorporate the corners in an iconic way then the thorny issue of the capacity could also be addressed as 55 - 56k seats would be achievable on the same footprint.
17 Posted 16/08/2019 at 11:16:01
Maybe that is the link that's missing for me. The criss-crosses maybe emphasised the scale of Goodison, which can be gleaned from that Goodison Road photo. The overhanging stand on a part of the ground that held 27,000 with stand and terraces. In this respect, I think Mark@16 has touched on something there, where overhanging tiers can bring scale and grandeur.
18 Posted 16/08/2019 at 11:32:23
19 Posted 16/08/2019 at 11:48:40
When the new stand was built for the 70-71 season, I recall that Everton were the first club in the country to replace the pylon floodlighting, that was standard at the time, with lights along the top edges of the stands. We were also the first to have an electronic scoreboard, and I believe (but not sure) underground heating for the new pitch.
I don't wish to sound childish, but I think such firsts are important, they underlined how big Everton was (hopefully still is). Similarly the then grandeur of Goodison fitted our status. Whatever the detailed design of the new stadium, it has to have great grandeur, preferably grander than all other club grounds, to reflect our history as represented by Don's post @2.
20 Posted 16/08/2019 at 12:04:02
My guess is that those are the areas reserved for disabled seating which can obviously be better integrated into a new build rather than expanded retrospectively as it has been at Goodison
21 Posted 16/08/2019 at 12:15:00
Then again I've a memory like a bag of mince
22 Posted 16/08/2019 at 12:44:57
23 Posted 16/08/2019 at 13:29:06
Some of these modern touches will make us feel at home straightaway, if they are done properly, as they will enhance the match day experience and help us love it from day one.
25 Posted 16/08/2019 at 13:41:33
Totally agree with all the comments about needing to stamp the clubs identity somehow in the stadium bowl - I would hope this will be considered in the next stage of design.
Never understood the references to Lucas Oil Stadium (a horrific building in my opinion) so very glad Meis has not gone down that route!
26 Posted 16/08/2019 at 15:14:44
27 Posted 16/08/2019 at 15:14:56
The Championship trophy was presented in the old stand.
28 Posted 16/08/2019 at 16:02:57
Steve, now it's a family size sardine can!
29 Posted 16/08/2019 at 16:17:03
30 Posted 16/08/2019 at 16:23:25
While it was being installed I remember going to reserve team games at Anfield and Earle's ground, who were a small non -league team at the time.
31 Posted 16/08/2019 at 16:36:31
The brickwork nod to Leitch is sufficient and adds to the aesthetic but the stadium is Meis's creation and should never have been too much of a tribute to Goodison's architect.
I'm really hoping the parking structure does not take away from the park's incredible location and that its rooftop is maximized with a plaza for bars etc. Also very much hoping that a sizable museum is included for housing the Everton Collection and trophy room.
The concourses could include sections of the Leitch crosses particularly in the home end and I'd love to see the Bullens floorboards used for panelling the bar walls or even repurposed as flooring there.
Overall, a very impressive initial offering and I'm very excited to see the final plans as planning applications are submitted.
32 Posted 16/08/2019 at 16:54:51
I'm not sure what it would be – maybe it can be done digitally in what appears to be a narrow band of continuous LCD around the middle of the stadium seating, although that would defeat the object of having something electronic (i.e. changeable) there in the first place – but for me interior needs something to make it immediately identifiable as Bramley-Moore Dock in pictures and on TV in the way that Goodison very much does.
33 Posted 16/08/2019 at 16:57:33
But what I hope most is younger fans give their views. This is theirs to have their own memories in.
34 Posted 16/08/2019 at 18:14:08
When you see film of the truly atmospheric modern grounds these days you can hardly tell where the exits/entrances and indeed gangways actually are. The Dortmund Wall is a classic example.
The new White Hart Lane has a number of poor features from the atmosphere perspective, and one is the ultimate mistake of aligning entrance/exit and gangways to split in half what should always be a single solid section of seating right behind the goal.
35 Posted 16/08/2019 at 18:17:26
It's been said a few times that they don't want people in wheelchairs stuck at the front with poor sight lines and susceptible to bad weather.
Just to add to what I said earlier, I think they need to incorporate a silver/steel Tower into the front of the roofline. Modern materials, but something obviously Everton. Our badge is our past, present and future.
36 Posted 16/08/2019 at 18:22:35
37 Posted 16/08/2019 at 18:45:39
38 Posted 16/08/2019 at 19:17:41
39 Posted 16/08/2019 at 19:46:10
Interesting to see what will happen with the memory walls and if Dixies statue will stay behind the Park End - Sir Philip Carter stand.
Maybe a 3D CGG view will help show the space and potential for building Everton themes in this area.
Exciting times but we need it very much on the pitch, too.
Ive gone for 4-0, to us, not had a beer yet.
Well we must live in hope eternal.
40 Posted 16/08/2019 at 19:50:44
For me the question about the slightly soulless interior is simple. I'd propose retaining a segment of the Bullens Leitch lattice, even if it were just a small part of it, and install it as a decorative feature in a similar position to where it sits at Goodison now. I can even see a few suitable places on the left hand side of that interior rendering above.
I think all blues would understand the symbolism of physically taking part of your old home to your new one. As some posters touched on above, designing modern 'replicas' of parts of Goodison could seem tacky if done the wrong way, so why not actually retain part of its most recognisable feature and bring it with us? That we we won't have to let Goodison go completely, it would be in keeping with the club's historic identity and would compliment the local industrial architecture around Bramley Moore dock.
The last few decades in has seen a trend for clever, modern refurbishments of historic buildings. There's no reason why it can't be done the other way around - installing a historic feature into a new build. It shouldn't add significant extra loading to the structure either.
Of course this depends on Goodison being completely demolished.
41 Posted 16/08/2019 at 20:20:31
I feel it needs to be something “built-in” rather than “bolted-on.” So a huge Nil Satis Nisi Optimum sign aint gonna cut it.
The Leitch cross-crosses are an obvious choice, which shouldnt be too difficult to implement, perhaps amongst the metalwork supporting the roof so as not use to take up any of the space used for seating.
I also feel that the interior of the stadium should reflect the outside but, at the moment, theres no similarity whatsoever. I would like to see some brickwork, similar to the outside, inside the stadium. The wall running in a band between the upper and lower tiers (e.g. the corporate boxes) could incorporate this quite nicely.
We havent heard much about the facilities inside the stadium yet. One would expect it to have all mod-cons but in the absence of official confirmation, its something Ive fed back to the Peoples Project. Tottenhams stadium may have cost twice as much but Id still like to see Bramley-Moore offer a few firsts in a British stadium.
Id also like to touch on the Goodison Park legacy. I really liked the concept images of part of the Bullens Road being preserved for future use. Perhaps a hotel and conference centre wasnt the best idea in terms of continuing to serve the local community but the idea of part of our original stadium living on is something that shouldnt be dismissed too quickly. I understand the issues around the condition of Goodison and the work that would be required to shore it up for the long term, but nothings impossible. Its just a matter of how much cash youre willing to invest.
Its important that we each give our feedback during the consultation phase to try and get some of these ideas incorporated in time.
42 Posted 16/08/2019 at 20:38:52
Are you sure you weren't in a Travelodge in Manchester City Centre Lyndon, it sounds very familiar to me?
43 Posted 16/08/2019 at 20:40:40
44 Posted 16/08/2019 at 21:09:41
45 Posted 16/08/2019 at 21:56:23
Absolutely NOT My friend.
Why would we need that ?
How many games were cancelled at The Grand Old Lady in (lets say) the last hundred years due to adverse weather ?
And why on earth sanitise Our conditions to the benefit of visiting opposition ?
Then do the cost vs effect arithmetic.
Pointless, I'm afraid.
Spend the money on ANYTHING meaningful.
46 Posted 16/08/2019 at 22:47:36
Actually the point is, when we do move, we want something that identifies it as 'home'. Unique to both us and the viewers. I think the Leitch criss cross would be just that. Home from home.
I will admit I'm not as enthusiastic as everyone seems to be about the designs. Could be better. Seems a bit generic inside.
As Lyndon suggested, I also was hoping for an Everton version of the Lucas Oil Stadium. Maybe a translucent retractable roof to make it unique. Could easily be added to the roof in the plans.
47 Posted 17/08/2019 at 01:01:18
48 Posted 17/08/2019 at 01:35:40
49 Posted 17/08/2019 at 03:29:06
Karl #48, let's found a TW investment fund right now and buy into something. I'll drop a fiver in the mail to get it started.
Eric #47, in this day and age we'd also have to build in a synagogue, a mosque and a Buddha.
Murph #45, I'm with you. No roof.
Brian #42, that would also describe any Motel 6 in the US, only the grunting you hear through the wall won't be hippos.
50 Posted 17/08/2019 at 07:03:44
51 Posted 17/08/2019 at 08:45:53
Like the majority of the above comments, I don't think its going too far to add the Leitch crosses somewhere into the interior, but they have to be in a permanent material and integral to the structure, preferably of steel / iron. The interior for me has no individual design detail and could almost be any other ground.
I dislike the placement f the exits just a few rows back from the front, though I understand both the safety aspect and need for concourse space behind them.
I really hate that the carpark is located in front of the stadium from the riverside when it could have been below ground (could be).
I agree that there should be an upper concourse dedicated to the Everton Collection of David France and amazing cultural attraction to the stadium on non-matchdays.
The idea to retain a part of the Bullens Road stand and create an events complex is a great idea and could provide local people with the possibility of jobs and training and of course a reminder of what the site used to be.
Despite my comments above, I still think Dan Meis has done a great job in actually pleasing the vast majority of the fans.
52 Posted 17/08/2019 at 18:16:39
"The interior has been criticised by some as being just being another standard bowl — I disagree"
Lyndon, it's not a bowl, it's a square bowl! (yes, that's a contradiction but true!).
Have a look at the three stadiums below and then have another look at BMD images and when all is said and done there's not a whole lot of difference. The proposed BMD stadium is far more glitzy, especially on the outside much more than the three below, but I do wonder how much of that glitz came at the expense of the fan experience on the inside after being bullied by Unesco and the Council.
However, there was though an image in the original EFC presentation that showed a three tier main stand, a two tier bullens, the away end with its reduced capacity (in your image above) and a huge wall for the new Gwladys, these changes would go fair way to breaking up the bowl shape and would be very acceptable.
They really have done an alternate to the Spurs stadium.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&biw=1016&bih=570&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=9SZYXdHwCJKSaIfdgqAP&q=middlesbrough+stadium&oq=midd&gs_l=img.3.1.0i67l8j0j0i67.79059.80505..82232...0.0..0.81.305.4 0 1..gws-wiz-img.XhyZTbeaxPs#imgrc=jwV_gjFCFxnX3M:
53 Posted 17/08/2019 at 18:50:08
They really have done a similar alternate to the Spurs stadium.
54 Posted 17/08/2019 at 19:59:28
55 Posted 17/08/2019 at 21:23:58
I know it's in the brickwork, but I think sitting in the new stadium and glancing over to see the criss cross design on the opposite stand will send shivers down the spine. Just spend some time looking over old pictures of Goodison - it's too great a part of the fabric to ignore
56 Posted 18/08/2019 at 12:45:10
As usual, your measured and observant style sets out a careful consideration of the new stadium proposals at Bramley-Moore Dock. I agree with much of what you say and a number of the other comments posted below your article.
I first became interested in the design and layout of the proposed stadium having read on TW Mike Owens excellent article Touchside at Bramley Moor, posted in July just before the present round of public consultation hosted by the People's Project. Indeed, I posted a number of comments in response to that.
I note that in your article you advise that you will be sharing this link with Dan Meis as a vehicle for conveying our views on the design and layout of the stadium. So having looked at the images and the stadium plan on line, visited the exhibition on 13th August, and followed that up with a visit to the site via Sandhills Station, my initial thoughts are as follows, which may or may not be worth conveying to the architect.
I find the design of the stadium, based on the elevations and the 3D fly-through available at the exhibition site, to be quite impressive. It is a modern fit-for-purpose building that will not result in the sort of almost modular and off-the-shelf style evident with so many of the new grounds that have emerged over the years without much thought given to their setting and relationship to the surrounds. I believe Dan Meis design achieves those aims without compromising the efficient functioning of the building whilst respecting the history of the surrounds and its historic buildings. The brick elevation and the detailing within that on the outer face of the main stand is welcome in that regard. One small concern, however, is that I have not seen a picture of the new ground from the west, looking from the river at the new car park with the stand rising up behind. The design of the car park and its waterside elevation will be important in that regard and should not detract from the brickwork face of thee new stand.
A number of commentators in response to your article have raised concerns about the appearance of the stands from within the stadium, and highlight in particular a desire to see an incorporation of the distinctive Leitch "criss-cross" on any balustrading which may separate the two levels. I would agree with that and also the prospect of incorporating the clock (in replica if necessary) from the church corner of Goodison Park. Some heritage from the old ground within the new would further help set the stadium apart from the tedium of others and give instant recognition to those important (future revenues) viewers on TV.
Now to the surrounds. In response to Mike Owens 'sarticle I raised a number of concerns regarding access to the ground. As I said above, I have walked from Sandhills station to the site on the basis that this station will provide an important public transport link to the site. To do so I crossed at least one main road at a junction with traffic light and pedestrian control. The pavements are narrow and I think it will be the case that the roads in the area will themselves, by default, become the main pedestrian link from the station. But only part of this route or routes will be the subject of the proposed traffic management and road closure proposals as shown on a plan at the exhibition. To my mind, the important pedestrian link to Sandhills station will need to be addressed in the upcoming planning application.
I like the idea of the large scale fans piazza on the Regent Road side of the ground. However part of this will be providing a route for vehicles accessing the carpark and/or the main stand. This needs to be clearly defined by reference, for example, to a change of surface treatment so that some degree of segregation and safety for fans is achieved.
Lastly, and related to this inclement weather. In the event that the weather is so bad that milling around in the piazza is a no no will the ground floor of the new stands provide a suitable refuge area of appropriate scale? I have not seen, or been made aware of, the internal circulation and layout within the new stands so at this stage I can do no more than highlight this point. Bear in mind that unlike Goodison the surrounds do not feature a lot of pubs, bars or social clubs that for our present ground provide refuge, shelter and refreshment on a grand scale before kick-off.
57 Posted 19/08/2019 at 16:17:36
58 Posted 20/08/2019 at 01:41:47
...so I tweeted my thoughts to Dan Meis, and his response was fantastic, so I thought it might be of interest in this discussion. I suggested we do something bold, and sent him images of Schalke and St. Pauli's foreboding tunnels. His response was;
@toffeeroo @Everton "Yep not developed yet, those spaces were merely placeholders for the fly through. Love these references"
So we need to remember that the fly through is an early days artist's impression - as it progresses I'm convinced we'll see all the little details that will make it our home.
If anyone wants to see my tweet and the replies you should be able to see it all here...
59 Posted 22/08/2019 at 18:31:55
I really think this could work and satisfy our need to bring some heritage with us. If anyone knows how to pass this idea on to Meis, let me know, I realise the consultation process has just ended.
61 Posted 22/08/2019 at 19:09:28
I doubt, however, the Littlewoods clocks are still knocking around anywhere. They were probably destroyed years ago.
62 Posted 22/08/2019 at 19:23:43
I like Lyndon's idea of the old EFC logo also being incorporated, I think that could be iconic.
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