The Loosening of the Devil's Red Pact

Lyndon Lloyd 17/10/2020 353comments  |  Jump to last

You can take the fans out of the derby but you seemingly can't take the “derby” out of this historic grudge match, the latest edition of which saw four goals, an almost obligatory red card — 88 minutes, it should be said, after Jordan Pickford could have been sent off himself — and a last-gasp intervention from VAR’s hair’s-breadth rulers. A fixture that so often fails to deliver on the hype may not have produced the greatest exhibition of football from both sides but there were plenty of talking points and drama to chew over.

Everton came into the game with a 100% record and greater optimism of ending their miserable record in this fixture than they have done for many years but, in truth, they didn't do themselves justice. For long periods, there was just too much of the “old Everton”, the one that struggles to beat the opposition press, relies too heavily on Pickford’s boot to launch “attacks” and lacks the crisp, clinical passing of the like that Liverpool used to race into a very early lead.

With players possessing the ball-moving qualities of James Rodriguez, Allan and André Gomes — and certainly given the start they’d made to the new season — Evertonians could have been forgiven for expecting more from their team, especially in the first half where they struggled to contain a reds side operating near their peak. Gomes, in particular, was poor and looked well off the pace throughout until he was replaced by Gylfi Sigurdsson with 20 minutes to go and what was a sub-par performance overall from the team, coloured as it was by some visible fatigue, might gnaw at Carlo Ancelotti when he plays this one back.

When Everton were fleetingly sublime, it was, unsurprisingly, James Rodriguez who was at the heart of it but the Colombian had a mixed performance himself (which, when you consider he was still probably the best player in Blue on the day, is quite something) while Richarlison, like Yerry Mina displaying the effects of trans-Atlantic travel on Thursday, was peripheral until he took centre stage late on.

But if the feeling was that Adriánwas a weak link in the reds’ side and that the loss Virgil van Dijk being forced off with an injury with just 10 minutes gave the Blues another big advantage, the hosts didn't end up taking full advantage. Apart from having to pick the ball out of the net and denying Dominic Calvert-Lewin prior to the first equaliser, the Spanish keeper wasn’t sufficiently worked by Everton.

Instead, the home side finished the match with 10 men after Richarlison’s deserved dismissal and played a Get Out of Jail Free card in stoppage time when Pickford, who had kept his side in it with an impressive display, almost threw a point away but Jordan Henderson’s goal, another potential heart-breaker for Blues supporters, was ruled out for marginal offside.

If there were fears that Everton would take the brunt of Liverpool’s response to the battering they took at Villa Park before the international break (not to mention that the forced pause in the schedule and the travel involved for some key players would be detrimental to the Toffees’ early-season momentum, they were realised right at the start of this contest. Jürgen Klopp’s side came flying out of the traps and were ahead inside three minutes.

A rapier-like passing move through the hosts’ midfield ended with the ball being played out to Andrew Robertson wide on the left and he centred hard and low for Sadio Mané to slam the ball high into the goal with a first-time finish.

Sensing blood, the reds came forward again in the fifth minute and when Virgil van Dijk threatened to meet a ball to the back post, he was cleaned out by a knee-high tackle by Pickford. With the whistle having already gone for offside and Pickford’s “tackle” deemed serious foul play and not violent conduct, there was no scope for VAR to review the incident and either award a penalty or send the goalkeeper off.

As such, it was a massive let-off for Pickford and Everton gradually settled and had a first chance of their own in the 11th minute when Calvert-Lewin could only head Lucas Digne’s cross well over and then when the striker tried to reprise his brilliant first goal against West Ham with deft control of Michael Keane’s ball over the top but his final shot was tame.

Everton equalised, though, with 18 minutes on the clock. Calvert-Lewin collected a ball down the right-hand channel and stung Adrian’s palms with a powerful drive from the angle. James took responsibility for the resulting corner and deposited it into the six-yard box where Keane connected with a strong header through the keeper’s gloves.

That should have been the cue for the Blues to settle, slow things down a bit and play their game a bit more but the passes just weren’t hitting their mark and all too often, the midfield was by-passed by Pickford’s long kicks forward. And that mid-section lacked fortitude at times as well. Allan was robbed of the ball in midfield but Mohamed Salah wasted the consequent chance with a powder-puff finish and then, when Gomes was penalised for a high foot near Mané (complete with theatrics from the Senegalese striker that should have warranted a yellow card), Pickford stretched impressively to push Trent Alexander-Arnold’s curling free-kick away to safety.

Then, with half an hour gone, Everton lost an important player of their own when Seamus Coleman suffered a recurrence of the hamstring problem that had prematurely ended his game against Brighton last time out and was replaced by Ben Godfrey, who acquitted himself very well on what was something of a baptism-by-fire debut.

Thiago Alcântara fired narrowly wide, Mané sliced a shot off target, and Calvert-Lewin’s side-foot touch slid past Adrian’s post as the two sides traded blows late in the first half but it was all square at the half-time interval.

If the second period had started in similar fashion to the first, with the visitors driving forward and seeing efforts from Fabinho and Henderson fly over the crossbar, Everton found some rhythm of their own and when Rodriguez picked Digne out with a splendid cross-field ball and the Frenchman put in a teasing centre, Calvert-Lewin uncharacteristically failed to get a touch ahead of Adrian.

James was at it again 10 minutes later with another quite brilliant cross that Richarlison dived to meet but his header came back off the post before the Colombian star had an effort of his own diverted away from goal by the keeper.

It was with 20 minutes to go in the Goodison derby back in June that Ancelotti’s side found an extra gear in an attempt to win the game and the same was hoped for today but it was Liverpool who took the lead again in the 72nd minute. Mina cut out a cross from the right but only presented it on a platter for Salah who took an instinctive snap-shot that spun beyond Pickford’s dive and inside the far post.

And 2-1 almost became 3-1 five minutes later. Joel Matip lost his marker in the box at a corner and headed towards the top corner but Pickford pawed it out the air superbly to deny the defender before parrying a stinging Salah shot over the bar.

Ancelotti had already withdrawn the disappointing Gomes and he then, somewhat surprisingly, replaced Abdoulaye Doucouré with Alex Iwobi for the last quarter of an hour but it was James and Digne who combined to serve up the second equaliser for Calvert-Lewin. Rodriguez, who had ghosted over to the left flank, fed the Frenchman down the line and his deep cross hung up perfectly for Calvert-Lewin to meet it with one of his amazing leaps and then steer his header back across the keeper.

“Now go and win it,” was, no doubt, the collective refrain from Evertonians watching on screens across the world over but Pickford had to save well at the feet of Mané before Richarlison effectively killed the Blues’ hopes of taking the points with a dreadful and needless challenge on Alcântara in the centre-circle. The Brazilian appeared to injure himself in the process of launching himself through the Spaniard but he will get a month to recuperate and consider his latest lack of judgement with a three-match suspension.

The incident almost proved to be even more costly because Liverpool tried to press home their numerical advantage in the last few minutes and looked to have claimed victory it with yet another sickening stoppage-time winner. Mané was played in down the reds’ left and he cut the ball back into the centre for Henderson whose side-footed effort looked routine enough for Pickford to palm away. Instead, the ball spun off his glove and over the line but Liverpool’s celebrations were cut dead by Video Assistant Referee, David Coote, who adjudged that Mane’s shoulder had been beyond the last defender.

It was a huge slice of fortune for Everton but then the Blues have been due some derby luck after years of dodgy refereeing decisions — hello, Graham Poll — and last-gasp winners. Reds fans will feel aggrieved at VAR and will moan that Pickford should have been given his marching orders after just five minutes but after Dirk Kuyt’s flying kick on Phil Neville, Steven Gerrard’s two-footed lunge on Gary Naismith, Joleon Lescott getting assaulted with no repercussions, Luis Suarez’s histrionics in getting Jack Rodwell sent off (there was also cynical a kick out at Allan by Robertson that went unpunished in today's game), Evertonians won’t be losing any sleep.

Instead, they will, perhaps, see this as evidence that Beelzebub’s pact with the dark side of Merseyside is loosening, that the balances are being redressed somewhat and that their side, after years of inferiority have a side capable of living with the current champions.

Despite being well below the best of what they’ve shown this season and never seeming to get out of second gear, Everton managed to grab a draw against what Klopp described as his side’s best away performance of his tenure. The spirit of a side that knows the meaning of losing less and less these days to twice come from behind is admirable and hugely encouraging.

That’s definitely something to build on for Ancelotti but it’s a relief that the next tortuous derby isn’t until February when the Blues will get a chance to slay two hoodoos at once.

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Reader Comments (353)

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Iakovos Iasonidis
1 Posted 17/10/2020 at 18:38:58
"That’s definitely something to build on for Ancelotti but it’s a relief that the next tortuous derby isn’t until February when the Blues will get a chance to slay two hoodoos at once." Amen!
Chris Hart
2 Posted 17/10/2020 at 18:56:54
They have been the Devil's Club since Shankley's time. Maybe he made a Faustian pact the season that they changed their kit to all red around about 1964.

Amazed that what looked like was their certain winner was disallowed. We were certainly due some luck against them.

Jerome Shields
3 Posted 17/10/2020 at 19:05:01
Everton had a consistently competitive attitude throughout the game, only Gomes fortunately gave the weak performance we have often seen and loathed for so long.

The international break did affect Rodrigeuz but he was good enough. Richarlison, on the other hand, was a spent force, now getting the rest he needs. Mina cannot defend on the turn.

Andrew Heffernan
4 Posted 17/10/2020 at 19:05:02
As Ancelotti will say to the players – point earned; focus on next game... while he and his team deal with outcome whether suspensions or injuries.

If Pickford continues this form, he will leave Brands et al no choice but to source a top-quality keeper. One good season cannot mask his erratic decision-making.

Mike Bersiks
5 Posted 17/10/2020 at 19:15:24
But, Pickford kept us in the game with four quality saves and could do nothing about the goals which were defensive errors made ahead of him. So he hasn't cost us any points this season – yet. Last season's Everton would have lost this game by plenty.
Michael Barrett
6 Posted 17/10/2020 at 19:25:48
Van Dijk has done his ACL... according to different sources.
Anthony Murphy
7 Posted 17/10/2020 at 19:31:25
I would have liked to have been in the Park End today to see that blert Henderson celebrate and then have his ‘winner' chalked off.
Michael Barrett
8 Posted 17/10/2020 at 19:35:00
Anthony my hesgoal stream kept freezing every 30 secs... just as well because we were terrible today.
Martin Mason
9 Posted 17/10/2020 at 19:56:00
I'm sorry to hear about the bad injury that Van Dijk received... especially as it was from a disgusting assault by Pickford. Van Dijk is a superb player and didn't deserve it.
Barry Rathbone
10 Posted 17/10/2020 at 20:01:13
They have been better than us for decades and don't indulge aberrations like Villa when playing us – that's the real reason our record is so abysmal against them.

Despite this season's welcome improvement, the highlights showed them overrunning us, their attacks fast-moving and laden with red shirts whilst ours ponderous with isolated blues.

We have a long way to go to get anywhere near but at least we had a bit of luck today – not that it alters my pre-match views amidst the bizarre optimism about beating the wretches – I'll believe it when I see it.

Tony Everan
11 Posted 17/10/2020 at 20:15:55
Tough game for us, we didn't play our game because Liverpool were on top of us within a millisecond of us having possession. They are manic with their gegenpress. Also, there isn't a player as good as Mane we will play against in the league, what a beast of a player.

I thought we battled very well and had a few good moments. Gomes needs to sharpen up, he seemed half-a-yard off the pace today. Mina had better watch his back too as there will be huge competition soon for that spot. The rest of the lads did relatively well and it is a good point on the board.

Godfrey deserves a mention coming on at right-back, he put a good performance for the team in very testing circumstances.

Onwards and upwards.

Mike Gaynes
13 Posted 17/10/2020 at 20:25:23
Michael Barrett
14 Posted 17/10/2020 at 20:32:25
I thought they played just as good with Van Dijk off the field with that front three. I think they will piss the league again.
Jay Evans
15 Posted 17/10/2020 at 20:37:33
Shit happens, Martin.

The best defender in the werrrrld had already left his mark on 2 of our players and we all know getting injured is part and parcel of the game.

Clumsy from Pickford, yes, but not malicious. He's not clever enough to injure someone on purpose and, while 2 wrongs never make a right, we all remember their lovely song about Seamus.

Get well soon, Virg. I'm pretty sure you won't be furloughed while you're not working.

Kase Chow
18 Posted 17/10/2020 at 20:47:19
Really disappointed by our performance – why do we always shit the bed and fail to turn up?!?!

I can take being outplayed by them but I can take the usual inferiority complex our first XI can compete with them, so I thought.

The Richarlison ban will show just how stupid it was not to replace Kean. Talk about being light up front, are we really relying on Ellis Simms or Anthony Gordon up there now???

Happy with the result and some aspects of the performance. But truth is we got outta jail yet could (should?) have won this.

We're further behind than I hoped we were. Good team spirit though.

Charles Brewer
19 Posted 17/10/2020 at 20:48:26
Van Dijk was sent onto that field with instructions to incapacitate James Rodriguez by kicking him until the ref gave a yellow, at which point some other goon would have taken over. That he got injured by Pickford accidentally taking him out is simply poetic justice.

Players like that should have no place in the game, but Liverpool have had a succession of them.

Kris Boner
20 Posted 17/10/2020 at 20:53:08
Years of watching them lot get away with whatever they wanted to have made my distinctly less sympathetic to their injuries.

Richarlison is, to quote ‘not that kind of player' (for all the defence of Son when he injured Gomes) and Pickford apparently doesn't possess enough brain cells to knowingly injure Van Dijk, according to most.

I still remember Gerrard on Naismith and Kuyt on Neville. Forever the victims them lot. They only won the league last time by Man City having an injury crisis that lasted a year and they didn't so much as have a cold all year.

Will Mabon
21 Posted 17/10/2020 at 21:06:17
". and they didn't so much as have a cold all year. "

That was the asthma drugs, Kris.

Derek Thomas
22 Posted 17/10/2020 at 22:23:02
Our South American contingent looked jet-lagged... Gomes just looked awful. We had a bit of luck and got out of jail... not before time.

Every sympathy for Van Dijk from a medical point of view... but from a Karmatic point of view??

We all know VAR is a total joke and the stupid rule changes and interpretations that have come along with it... and is doing everything its supporters said it would not do. But this season we've benefited. Referee Oliver though... is there a decent ref in the whole Premier League?

Tim Cahill said... Old Everton would've folded – but this is 'New Everton'!

A week off to get the jet lag out of the systems and for Ancelotti to sort out a formation without Pike... erm sorry 'Stupid Boy' Richarlison.

This may involve a Christmas Tree type shape with Calvert-Lewin at the top of the tree for the next 2 away games... I refuse to look any further forward.

Jerome Shields
23 Posted 17/10/2020 at 23:31:02
Just had a look at the highlights, having previously seen the second half. I thought that Everton played very well in this game against a good Liverpool team. In my opinion, Everton can improve further and I do think they can make a serious challenge in the Premier League this season.

Coleman was slow on the first goal. The game was too fast for Gomes, making him totally unsuitable. Allan was under pressure as a result. Gomes will be suitable in other games.

Mina is not suitable either. He is okay when the play is in front of him, but against pace and defending on the turn (running back to goal), he is weak. Keane was good today and Godfrey was better than Mina. I did think that Rodriguez and Richarlison suffered from the long flights back, but Rodrigeuz was still very influential. Richarlison was dangerous at times, but was off the pace. His tackle ended a chance of Everton to go on and win.

Iowbi was okay, but could have been better. Calvert-Lewin is getting better and will improve further. Digne is back to his best. Sigurdsson was better than Gomes, but went missing at times as per usual. Pickford on balance had a good game. I did not think the tackle on Van Dijk was a foul or intentional.

Phil Wood
24 Posted 17/10/2020 at 23:31:32
Red shite attempting to have result reversed. So many dodgy calls over the last year with VAR but they want their one overturned.

How many matches in your life have you seen a bad call called out as bad on re-runs but they must have theirs vindicated and the result changed. Bloody amazing arrogance.

Phil Greenough
25 Posted 17/10/2020 at 23:41:28
It doesn't matter what they bitch about, Phil, the result will stand. What it does do though, is heighten the refs awareness in future matches, of their superiority over lesser clubs. How very dare VAR and match officials, not be in favour of them?
Paul Birmingham
26 Posted 17/10/2020 at 23:43:31
Phil, they, the LFC, can't stand reality and facts.

They've had the best run o& god fortune of any club in the world, over the last 60 years.

Hand on heart for me, VAR and Covid-19, is slowly killing the game of football.

And very poor referees.

Stan Schofield
27 Posted 17/10/2020 at 23:45:15
Phil @24:

Apparently, Klopp wants both the Pickford - Van Dijk incident and the late offside to be reviewed. But if he claims that the first decision was wrong, then logically the second one cannot be reviewed.

This is because if the first one were reviewed to a red card for Pickford, the course of the game after that incident would have been totally different, and the contested late offside would in all likelihood never have occured, it being a very particular incident.

Some people, Klopp included, need to sort their shit out logically. The guy is an idiot.

Phil Lewis
28 Posted 17/10/2020 at 23:46:16
I have been more critical of Pickford than most, so it is only fair that I give him praise when it's deserved. He pulled off a couple of spectacular saves today which kept us in the game. He was brave and composed. Long may it continue.

Gomes is something of a mystery of late. Since his comeback from that awful injury he looks a shadow of the player he was. I'm wondering if his problems are all physical, or if he is carrying psychological wounds that are proving harder to heal.

However he wasn't alone in the poor distribution department today. Several players looked off the pace, particularly in the first half.

Still, the fact is that they were playing very well and we were below par, yet they still couldn't beat us. That has to bode well for the upcoming games. Our confidence and belief in ourselves has no limits. We can and will improve.

Kevin Dyer
29 Posted 17/10/2020 at 23:58:29
Strange game. They played brilliantly at times and dominated, particularly in the first half. That we escaped with a point when playing pretty poorly is the sign of a good team. Previous seasons we lose that, probably quite badly.

Pickford had two awful moments, but neither counted. In between, he played well. Can't ignore those two errors though, lucky neither cost us. So, his erratic form continues. No idea if he'll pull out of this or not.

Richarlison badly effected by South American jaunt, off it all day, stupid challenge summed it up. A chance for Iwobi or Bernard to show Carlo something anyway. Out of our starting 11 Gomes looks most vulnerable to getting displaced. Sluggish today, defensively a liability and too easily bypassed, though in fairness they are not regular opponents. I'd consider trying Sigurdsson, or even Davies, next time out. Though Godfrey did well playing out of position. Kenny is unlucky to be crocked whilst Seamus is also injured.

I feel sorry for Van Dijk, totally reckless by Jordan. Thiago could easily have been badly injured also.

Stan Schofield
30 Posted 18/10/2020 at 00:10:02
Kevin, it was a 50/50 ball, Van Dijk was the unlucky one, shit happens, usually to us in terms of bad injuries. He'll get over it, he's a big strong bloke.
Paul Birmingham
31 Posted 18/10/2020 at 00:17:49
Well, said, Stan, the Hunter, got caught, and he wasn't as good as he thought he was.

Shit happens, in life every day and football. Today the Gods of Fortitude, were on our side.

The moaning cunts, the RS, really, are in terms of charisma, many are lacking.

Everton, on the back of Villa, have shown the RS, are not great, and can be beaten.

At the critical times today, in context we had and didn't take good chances.

That's the difference, EFC, must make up.

But what a Day, onwards Evertonians!

Jerome Shields
32 Posted 18/10/2020 at 00:33:19
Let Klopp and Liverpool stew over the game all they like. They want the status quo. Everton, moving on and progressing, will overcome.
Mike Corcoran
33 Posted 18/10/2020 at 00:37:44
Our middle 3 needs a third motor. We are carrying a player be it Gomes, Sigurdsson or Iwobi. Some sort of Martin Dobson would do. My jury is out on Doucoure so far but tempered with the cover he gives to the majestic but ethereal James.
Ernie Baywood
34 Posted 18/10/2020 at 00:45:16
Pickford will get blame... but in real time it wasn't that bad. Not for a keeper anyway - it's their job to lunge across the angle of ball and goal.

The injury is a freak. It's Pickford's thigh against Van Dijk's knee. His weight bends the knee due to the angle of Van Dijk's leg. You couldn't cause an ACL if you tried.

Having looked at it again, I would say if there was never a question about the offside, they would have maybe given a penalty but nothing more. Certainly wouldn't have given a red card.

Once it's offside, it can only be a question of violent conduct. And I don't think it was.

James Flynn
35 Posted 18/10/2020 at 00:58:17
"The next tortuous derby isn't until February when the Blues will get a chance to slay two hoodoos at once."

What was most evident today was we could match up with skill, determination, and grit.

What the RS displayed we don't have yet; a several years, pressure-hardened, well-oiled machine.

We'll be a much better team by February.

Stephen Vincent
36 Posted 18/10/2020 at 01:12:16
Sheffield United had a perfectly valid goal not recognised last season against Villa. If that 'goal' had been seen then Villa would have lost and been relegated. The Premier League are hardly likely to reverse the ref's decision and VARs. The worst that will happen is that Pickers will get a retrospective ban for serious foul play if Oliver says that he didn't see the incident.
Ernie Baywood
37 Posted 18/10/2020 at 01:35:59
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd love to think that there a bunch of reds right now talking about their Goodison hoodoo and how we must have signed a pact with the devil.
Si Cooper
38 Posted 18/10/2020 at 02:37:32
I don’t think the decisions can be reversed per se. What they are asking for is an admission that they were wrong. I doubt they will get that admission on the offside.
As for Pickford’s challenge, it will hinge on whether the VAR referee says if he reviewed it or not. If he didn’t then I think they stand a good chance of getting Pickford retrospectively punished, but that isn’t fundamentally different from what used to happen if the ref didn’t get a good view of a similar incident in a game.
Materially I don’t think it will make too much difference and the majority will already have decided the RS got bad decisions for those two incidents today. We may just have to cope with Pickford being unavailable for a few games.
Ernie Baywood
39 Posted 18/10/2020 at 02:40:50
If that's the case then we need to ban every keeper who lunges out at a striker. There'll be a couple every week.
Ernie Baywood
40 Posted 18/10/2020 at 02:43:24
And as for the other decisions, did anyone think Mane's high challenge on Digne needed review? And his reaction to Mina in the same incident that Richarlison got sent off?

Can we review Van Dyk's first two challenges?

Robertson on Allan?

Media setting the agenda. Fk em.

Steve Brown
41 Posted 18/10/2020 at 03:58:59
I don't feel sorry for Van Dijk at all. He is a dirty player who had already done James twice in the game and went into a 50/50 challenge with Pickford. He didn't pull out and neither did Jordan, so it was a footballing incident and rightly didn't merit review.

Sure we all wish him well in his long recover and look forward to the day when he eventually returns to action.

As for the offside, I love the contorted logic that is was 'technically'n outside but shouldn't have been given. The way they have reacted to the game shows they are still the bitter, entitled arseholes they ever were.

For us, we didn't pay well but we competed and never gave up. We'd have lost that game by 3 or 4 goals last season, but this side has belief.

Ajay Gopal
42 Posted 18/10/2020 at 06:19:13
After the dust has settled, I look back and think that we had the better clear cut chances - the one that fell to DCL's feet off a delicious cross from Digne, and the Richarlison shot that hit the upright - both chances should have been converted. Both of Liverpool's goals had a touch of good fortune - Coleman's block ricocheted right back to Robertson's feet giving him all the time in the world to pick out Mane. And then, Mina's poor clearance sat up perfectly for Salah whose 1st time shot found the perfect corner of the goal.

Next week will be a very stern test against Southampton - Hasenhutl has them playing very similar to Liverpool. Richarlison will be a big miss. Can Bernard step up, or will Carlo prefer Iwobi?

Godfrey looks like a very useful player to have in the squad, he grew in confidence as the game went on. The mazy run that he went on, I felt he should have taken the shot himself instead of passing it to DCL whose shot was weak and easily saved by their keeper.

Karl Meighan
43 Posted 18/10/2020 at 06:47:22
Anytime you take a point off the champions without being at your best is a decent result.

First half we gave the ball away far to easily but second half it improved and we looked a much better side. Richarlisons stupid challenge almost cost us yesterday but missing him for 3 games could prove much more costly.

How we perform in the next two or three games becomes the next test. So far we have come through and look a different animal to previous seasons. Dissapointment from are players in not getting the win and points is a sign of the strides forward we have made.

A last word on the nerve of the redshite in complaining to the Premier League over var decisions, WOW.

Peter Warren
44 Posted 18/10/2020 at 07:48:22
First half we weren’t at the races. I thought second half we were the better team. Whilst poor clearance by Mina it was an absolutely wonderful finish by Salah. That drained me as I felt we were on top; DCL missed a very good chance as well as Richarlison; but this side has bags of resolve.

Our mental fortitude has been our weakness for as long as I can remember and whilst we didn’t turn up properly first half the red side played very well that half.

Our mental fortitude (Pickford aside) has been lost with the controversy and will get us more points than simply good players and performances.

The good thing is we can play much better and won’t face many sides who have w player as good as Mane, that new block in the middle and finishing like Salah. COYB.

Thomas Lennon
45 Posted 18/10/2020 at 08:11:41
Winning teams demand winning. United used to do it, City do it and Liverpool do it in spades. If they are not winning they start kicking out at the best players in the opponents team. At 4-2 that was what was happening 2 weeks ago to them, but Villa kept scoring and they imploded. We could have done the same, we missed.

Footy has long been a games of winning individual battles, Liverpool do it in groups nowadays as do others. Of course our best players received attention but this time our efforts counted too, which helped bring about the draw. Fake protests are part of the game Klopp plays - we didn't win, we are the best so it can't have been our fault. Make your team unchallengeable in their own heads.

One point in six, conceding goals, they are wobbling.

Remember we have had one window and eight games of development. How many games did Klopp need?

Robert Tressell
46 Posted 18/10/2020 at 08:49:30
No need for apologies or concerns about Thiago & VVD. We move on. My concern is our injury list and adapting for (how many games?) without Richarlison.
Martin Mason
47 Posted 18/10/2020 at 08:55:40
One positive for me is that we have room to improve and we have the potential to improve.
Paul Tran
48 Posted 18/10/2020 at 09:20:26
In a lot of respects, our defects were shown up by a very good side. James doesn't track back much, so our right side gets exposed. Few teams are good enough to exploit it, they were. They seized the initiative from the start - we have to be mindful of that next time. All of a sudden, we looked similar to last season, as a good, fast midfield dominated us.

Yet we equalised, went in level and looked the better side for spells of the second half. Mina should have dealt with the ball better, but it was a lovely finish from Salah. And then we conjoured a wonderful second equaliser.

They'll be wondering what they have to do to beat us. We can do so much better, but next time, we have to be ready from the off.

I was heartened by our cussedness, our nastiness and our ability to go toe to toe with them. Over a season, that will mean more to me than the odd sparkling performance.

Let them whinge, let the media whinge on their behalf. Let's keep doing our thing, because even on an off-day, its working.

Peter Roberts
49 Posted 18/10/2020 at 09:24:52
Social media is full of the two different types of Liverpool fans: Reds (sound LFC fans you can engage in reasonable discussions on football) grumbling about VAR and bemoaning their luck (normally will accept theyve been beneficiaries so often in the past), and Kopites (we wuz robbed la, death threats to Pickford, probably David Coote as well given his social media photo is taken at Old Trafford, always the victims, want the result overturned, LFC can do no wrong). Thankfully most LFC fans on my feed seem to be the former and I just point out that while we were the beneficiary this time, so often have we been on the wrong end of derby decisions so it's about time we benefitted.

We were not at our best but I think that was a mixture of international jet lag, Liverpool forcing us onto the back foot for large parts of the game and also tactics from Carlo to not play out from the back and counter the Gegenpress. And I think we more than held our own.

Right result should have been 3-2 on the basis of the awful VAR decision at the end, but the fair result was 2-2 as we deserved a point from the game at least.

John Keating
50 Posted 18/10/2020 at 09:32:32
To round of a perfect weekend the Club should ask the PL to look at Richies red card.
After careful consideration it would be reduced to yellow or rescinded and an apology issued to player and Club
Now that would get them going!
Dale Rose
51 Posted 18/10/2020 at 09:34:21
The RS have always had a massive sense of entitlement. Didn't go their way unlike so often in the past. Tough on Van Dyke. It was also tough when Seamus was hurt didn't stop those bastards with their song. Good point for us.
Peter Roberts
52 Posted 18/10/2020 at 10:08:44
Dale Rose

Their captains comments after the game seem to indicate just that. Of course nothing will be done about him questioning the integrity of VAR

Phil Greenough
53 Posted 18/10/2020 at 10:21:35
Si@38. As I said last night, if Klopp wants decisions retrospectively reviewed, Everton must ask the the FA to review the incidents, Ernie@40 has listed.

It's obvious none of the officials did at the time, therefore if they retrospectively penalise Pickford, they must also punish the Liverpool players.

Tony Hill
54 Posted 18/10/2020 at 10:40:50
Martin @47 and Paul @48, absolutely right. That was a gruelling game in its way and we emerged from it intact. Much to learn but much to be pleased about.

Who replaces Richarlison? I would be happy with any of Bernard, Iwobi or Gordon (someone has suggested on here that Gordon might have fallen out with Carlo, surely not?)

Santa Krsh
55 Posted 18/10/2020 at 10:42:15
Mike @ 33, The motor could be someone named Gbamin( I seriously hope so).
Having a player like him who will be disciplined to keep the defensive shape, would allow Allan to roam free and try to win the ball higher up & Doucoure can always be the extra leg either side of the pitch.
I remember Steve Ferns screaming all day long during on of the preseason threads that, for all the business we have done, we still do not have a disciplined Def Mid to shield our Back 4.
He was perfectly correct to point out our flaw which thoroughly got exposed yesterday.
Yesterday, Allan got caught up few times and the shites were running straight at our defense in packs with no one even near their attackers. We were lucky that we didnt get punished brutally!!
Hope Gbamin recovers as expected by this month end and come back as the player we all thought would be!!
COYB
Brent Stephens
56 Posted 18/10/2020 at 10:42:29
The referee makes a judgement on offside in real time. The assistant referee makes a judgement in real time. The VAR makes a judgement with the benefit of time and technology. An outraged club wants a further VAR judgement with the benefit of time and technology.

If the post-game VAR judgement differs from the in-game VAR judgement, that's a VAR-draw. Then what?

How many fecking judgements do you want?

Mike Kehoe
57 Posted 18/10/2020 at 10:46:57
Koeman is working his magic at Barcelona. Wonder if they will go for Allardyce when Koeman has them in the bottom 3 in December.
Anthony Murphy
58 Posted 18/10/2020 at 10:53:14
What are the RS hoping to achieve by asking decisions to be reviewed? I don’t think the decision re Pickford can be overturned can it? They are planting the seed. Mark my words, next weekend the RS will benefit from a dodgy VAR decision.
Filipe Torres
59 Posted 18/10/2020 at 11:07:02
I don't agree with the comments here, I think they were at the top of their game, and that makes it difficult to any opponent, but we went toe to toe.

It is extremely hard to stay focused, and keep being aggresive, without the ball; it requires a lot of heart and desire to do that, but the players had it.

We will never outplay a world class team with our current squad, just forget about that, but we can and should play, and this game has shown it.

Decisions came our way for once and that is also a plus, though I do think the ref let their midfield press us by pushing, grabbing, putting their foot in, without giving the fouls he gave the other way around (particularly near the box).

Good result and we can't win them all.

Stan Schofield
60 Posted 18/10/2020 at 11:11:12
Brent@56: As many as is needed to get the decision they want.
Frank Crewe
61 Posted 18/10/2020 at 11:11:34
Managers, players and fans always bemoan close decisions whether made by the officials or VAR when they go against them and keep their mouths shut when they benefit from from.
If the boot had been on the other foot and VAR had saved them from defeat I doubt the Kloppites would be complaining about it.
The fact is VAR is here to stay. It is a worldwide so there is nothing the PL clubs can do about it if they wish to continue playing in UEFA and FIFA competitions.
Personally I think what they are really upset about is the fact that the richer "big six" clubs tended to benefit from close decisions prior to VAR as they could pressurise the officials during the games. How many dubious free kicks on the edge of the box did Suarez get? Now Mane is doing it. Breath on him anywhere near the box and he's lying on the ground.
VAR has taken close decisions out of the officials hands so they can't be pressured and that benefit has been diluted so they have taken to whinging in the media instead through their old boy pundit network and back scratching football hacks on the back pages to try and get their advantage back.
Geoff Lambert
62 Posted 18/10/2020 at 11:17:23
VAR said offside! what's the problem? its either offside or not offside be it 1mm or 100mm. If it was onside by 1mm would we be asking for a review?.
We were not at our best today against one of the best teams in the world who were very good yesterday.
To get a draw when not playing at you best is the sign of a good team.
Brian Harrison
63 Posted 18/10/2020 at 11:19:30
I think most of us will agree Pickford should have gone for that challenge on VVD, and to be fair to him if he had have screamed and rolled around then Pickford would have gone. Seems like he might be out for the rest of the season, so really tough on the lad. The offside goal well who can blame them for questioning the VAR decision, quite clearly David Coote the VAR official doesnt understand the rules, the rule is quite specific any marginal decisions involving our neighbours must always go in their favour. I mean this rule has been in place for decades so no excuse David Coote, I would imagine Mike Riley has already booked him into a refresher course with Mark Clattenburg to understand this long standing rule.

The game itself well I could think of many of our teams from the recent past who would have folded after their first and definitely after their second goal. But it seems this group is made of much sterner stuff. A few of our players played below the level they have been at, and I just wonder how much training Allan and Gomes have done in the past fortnight, same goes for Coleman who hadnt fully recovered from his hamstring problem. But what it does show is the determination of these players to want to play even though not fully fit. I think Keane is getting better and better, and is now becoming a real goal scoring threat from corners, Mina is still a worry but with Godfrey who did well when he came on and Holgate on the mend then things defensively looking much more assured. While discussing the defence I don't think there is a better left back in the league than Digne, his delivery is equal to any midwifes delivery. Just worth mentioning apart from his stupid challenge on VVD Pickford made 2 great saves, which just highlights what a good shot stopper he is, its when he has time to think that he makes mistakes. James again showed his brilliant range of passes and DCL now is looking like the real deal up front. His goal was almost Alex Young like, a terrific leap and the ability to hang in the air all reminiscent of the great man himself.

So after 5 games still top of the league and although not at our best the result will have enhanced the confidence in the squad.

Joe Corgan
64 Posted 18/10/2020 at 11:43:25
Ordinarily I wouldn’t be at all concerned by Liverpool trying to get the VAR decision overturned, if that is what they are even trying to do, but this is a team that talked their way into the 2005/06 Champions League having, under the rules at the time, failed to qualify!
Danny O’Neill
65 Posted 18/10/2020 at 11:54:51
Well, I'm never the best to analyse Everton as I get caught up in the emotion like most of us, which is compounded in these godforsaken fixtures.

We played well in the context of being up against the best team in Europe, arguably the world right now. When you play these teams, you are going to get exposed and spend prolonged periods under pressure. In the main, we coped well with their incredibly strong starting line up, particularly the front players. That said, I'm surprised not many picked up on the jammy shit of a pass to Robertson for the first goal. It was so meant for Mane in a more central position the player sliced it and it drifted wide to fall nicely for Robertson!!

With more focus on us at the moment, the rest of the country is seeing more of the Pickford we see most weeks. A great shot stopper (most of the time), but erratic decision making and prone to at least one rush of blood moment per game. Dreadful tackle and I wouldn't complain if he receives a retrospective ban.

We showed character to come back twice and we got the decisions. Too often in the past in this fixture, we've been on the wrong end of some equally awful decisions. A fair result in my opinion and one of the more competitive Derbies in recent years, although let's be honest, based on recent servings, our bench mark was to actually turn up this time.

Last one, I make that now 3 or 4 near carbon copy goals for Dominic. You would suspect that pretty soon, teams will cotton on to the cross from the left and Dominic rising like a gazelle. The beauty now though, is we have more than one player for other teams to worry about.

Mike Kehoe
66 Posted 18/10/2020 at 12:46:18
I think we should give them the points right now and say a big sincere sorry. Because we all know if van Dyke would have injured James in his earlier effort, and it wasn’t picked up by the ref, Jurgen would have been devastated and demanded the points be given us.
Niall McIlhone
67 Posted 18/10/2020 at 12:51:50
Ah well. Points dropped, but in the wider scheme of things, a good result. City beating Arsenal gave us a little breathing space.
As many have already said, those returning from South America looked a little off pace, but James produced moments of dazzling play, it just seems effortless the way he retained possession and opens up play. If he stays fit And injury free, we always have hope from first whistle to last.
Doucoure had a bit of a quiet game, but much of his best work is around is clever positional play, but she does have an unfortunate habit of poor passing inside when he is in a wide position, I am sure Don Carlo and Davide will work on that because he is otherwise a hell of a player, a genuine box to box midfielder we have missed.
So, Southampton next. That will be tough, they have goals in them, but with Richi sidelined, I would like to see If Iwobi can do a job playing off DCL, but with the manager we have, it will more about the shape than the personnel anyway.
The point you make Lyndon about not giving up is very important, and my hope is that we can capitalise more away from home now that we have genuine pace on the counter, and the appetite not to just settle for a scrappy point.
John O’Neill
68 Posted 18/10/2020 at 13:02:57
It’s a mans game. Van Dijk fouled 2 off our players in the first couple of minutes then went in for a 50/50 and came off worst nothing malicious in my opinion . well played Everton
Clive Rogers
69 Posted 18/10/2020 at 13:10:44
John, I suppose you could call it 50:50 as the ball was somewhere else. Pickford is becoming a liability.
Karl Meighan
70 Posted 18/10/2020 at 13:22:17
VAR seems to be the big talking point so whilst were at it Richarlison clearly had his shirt pulled when hitting the post will they try and get that overturned as well, Dont think so. Or on another day Van Dijk could have had three yellows inside the first two minutes, Robertson kicking out is a possible straight red, but eh its a derby we dust ourselves off and go again.

How about they complain about the 50 years shit decisions we have had in these games, we would be here all night.

Danny O’Neill
71 Posted 18/10/2020 at 13:24:34
Slight correction Clive. **becoming.

Jordan is a liability. Shame as there is a great showstopper in him but his command of the box and decisions making is erratic at best.

Derek Knox
72 Posted 18/10/2020 at 13:29:04
Having watched the entire game, my jubilant expectancy came crashing down, after a few minutes of play, one thing you CAN'T do against Liverpool is give them space and we did just that mostly in midfield but this permeated to other areas too.

I thought Gomes was awful, and Doucoure and Allan way below par, that was our engine room stuttering and not firing on any cylinders. Still it shows that although we didn't get the ideal result we may have just turned the corner.

Historically we would have collapsed, but somehow with a combination of some decent play and a good slice of luck, something that seems to have deserted us for as long as I care to remember, we managed to salvage a draw.

Charles Brewer
73 Posted 18/10/2020 at 13:36:35
Pickford had a superb match yesterday. In effect, he was the only thing that kept Everton in the match, very much the same as against Spurs. The Redshite supporting press decided that the filthy van Dijk, whose sole contribution to the match was a series of disgraceful cowardly calculated hacks from behind, was hard done by in coming off worse in a 50:50.

I am getting very bored with the constant press carping about any minor error by Pickford but discounting his superb saves, wonderful distribution, but I expect that kind of crap from the press and BBC. I find it rather less acceptable from Everton supporters who seem to be out to find fault with anything Pickford does and willing to follow the Sky6 worshipping halfwits. Are they really trying to make Pickford less confident, because that will be the only effect.

The goalkeeper who makes no mistakes is the one sitting on the bench. Luckily Ancelotti and Southgate seem to have a better understanding of how the sport actually works than those who expect no goalkeeper ever to let the ball go past him.

Michael Williams
74 Posted 18/10/2020 at 13:53:32
Charles 73 I cannot agree more. Without Pickford in goal yesterday we likely would have lost 3-1. He made several great to very good saves. Not every keeper would have made all those saves. Can our fans be happy about that, no?

There are damn few people here who would rather wish Pickford well through his struggles and get behind him instead of ripping him.

I said this during the ToffeeWeb reader blastathons of Stones, Barkley and DCL: If I were a young player I would think long and hard about coming here, and then most likely not - unless the money was just too good.

Let me put it another way. If I was a young player and I knew it would take time to come good, and the only consideration I had was the fanbase, I would not come here.

Stan Schofield
75 Posted 18/10/2020 at 13:54:00
Charles73: Very well said!
Danny O’Neill
76 Posted 18/10/2020 at 13:56:59
Jordan is a good goalkeeper Charles. For where we are right now, as I said in the summer, it wasn't a priority to bring in anyone better and I doubt we could to be fair.

He's a great shot stopper as he proved yesterday by keeping us in the game like you say. But his tendency to have a rush of blood moment in most games will eventually cost us if it isn't already. To that end, he is a liability. Fortunately this season we are going to score goals (e.g. Brighton) to compensate. But that won't always be the case and especially against the better teams. Yesterday, let's be honest, a loose thread on Van Dijk's shoulder prevented a penalty, red card and subsequent likelihood of being 2-0 early doors.

It's not a lack of support or criticism. When he's on the pitch wearing the shirt I support him and want him to do well. It's just an honest assessment of his abilities. We all have them on most players.

It's a consideration moving forward. Should this go the way I'm sure we are hoping it will go, we probably need to consider a better keeper that hopefully our then position will attract.

I've used them before as an example. Yesterday's opponents put up with "good" keepers as they prioritised the forward machine they now have. The final piece in Klopp's jigsaw was to eventually replace good with excellent. I think we'll do the same unless Jordan can iron out those flaws in his game. Which I hope he does by the way. I like being proven wrong if it benefits Everton.

Geoff Lambert
77 Posted 18/10/2020 at 14:26:06
Charles Michael #73&74 spot on guys no mention of the saves that won us a point from the idiots on here that lambast Jordan at every opportunity. Some even calling him out for the Dirt Van Dyke tackle. Live by the sword and all that.
Karl Meighan
78 Posted 18/10/2020 at 14:49:05
That dickhead ref on BT said Pickford's challenge could be considered violent conduct, I have to ask how, as it's offside, with his eyes on the ball. I will accept it was a poor challenge but play had not been restarted, am I missing something here?
Fran Mitchell
79 Posted 18/10/2020 at 15:02:43
We got a but of luck yesterday, but all successful teams do require luck on occasion. The draw yesterday can help spur us on.

We're disappointed we didn't break the hoodoo, but the reality was, after the humiliation at Villa, Klopp was gonna have his charges fired up.

We had little to no preparation before the game, James, Mina and Richarlison had long haul flights after a busy international week and were technically playing at 8 am considering jet lag.

Digne picked up a knock, Allan and Homes had just returned from injury with little training, and we lost our captain.

Liverpool's Mane and Salah had no international football, neither Thiago so no surprises they came flying out the blocks.

In other generations, it would have been 3-0 before half time. But not this Everton team. We dug in, got the equaliser and could have won it at 1-1.

Calvert-Lewin continues his excellent form, Digne shows he's one of the best in his position, James is the best passer of the ball in the league too.

Yesterday showed we can compete.

Let's not forget that this is a very powerful Liverpool team, and they were desperate for a win yesterday, and often the top clubs will respond to a heavy defeat with a similarly heavy win. We didn't let them, and got a bit of luck.

Let them be the one's fuming for once.

Now to 2 winnable but not easy away games before our next home game at another 'big team'. I just think we could be the culprit for another Man Utd manager getting his P45.

Tony Abrahams
80 Posted 18/10/2020 at 15:04:48
Ernie@40, that last sentence means everything to me mate, and it's why I'm falling out of love with the game.

The outrage because it's Liverpool is incredible, but football won't benefit, this once again is all about Want-It-Both-Ways FC.

Derek Knox
81 Posted 18/10/2020 at 15:06:59
Like many have said, the previous challenges by Bert The Chimney Sweep on Richarlison and James, had intent to disable or disarm the players' threats, but when the boot is on the other foot, there are calls for a Torquamada-esque inquiry set in motion.

They don't mind dishing it out, and how many times have they got away with it in the past? Like Corporal Jones famously said "They don't like it up'em".

Nobody likes to see any player ruled out for a lengthy period of time but I seriously do not think that Jordan had any other intention but to get the ball and prevent a possible goal-scoring opportunity. When played back it does look worse than I believe it was.

Get Well soon, Bert! Think about Mary Poppins and her charges.

Tony Abrahams
82 Posted 18/10/2020 at 15:22:28
I take the opposite view of a few on this thread and think Pickford would benefit by not playing for a few weeks.

His save from Matip was world class, he also made a very good save from Arnold, but goalkeeping to me is about a hell of a lot more than this, and the other side of Jordan's game has been below standard for a long time now.

Southall became a much better keeper after a spell on the sidelines, so I'm not giving up on Jordan Pickford, I just think he needs to improve in a few areas, and don't think I'm being critical by saying so.

Danny O’Neill
83 Posted 18/10/2020 at 15:38:17
I think you're right Tony. To my points above, Jordan does some great stuff at times. Where he needs to improve is decision-making and command of the box. The keeper is always the second captain for me. You can see at times our defence having to tell him what to do.

His instinctive reflex save stuff is up there with some of the best but it's the other aspects of goalkeeping that he needs to work on. I'm not being overly harsh, it just depends where we want Everton to be.

I don't think a spell on the sidelines does him any harm. If anything, it gives him time to reflect and get hungry again.

Unfortunately lots of scrutiny on him at the moment, so the trick will be how to manage that without destroying his confidence. Although to be fair, that seems pretty shot right now. But I guess we have a manager who knows how to handle these situations.

Brian Williams
84 Posted 18/10/2020 at 16:13:15
How does his confidence seem "pretty shot" when the lad made three excellent result saving saves yesterday?

Fran Mitchell
85 Posted 18/10/2020 at 16:34:04
If we could exchange Pickford for Schmeichel, then I'd say we have a good chance of the title. Leicester when they won the league won it in a big part due to having the best keeper in the league that season.

Pickford seems to panic. He is highly capable to making high class saves, and he has shown this. He is capable of excellent saves, and he is capable of excellent long-range distribution.

But he is far too susceptible to panicking under pressure, he charges out of position, balls slip from his grasp, he lets balls slip under him. This is the basic stuff. He is capable of the sublime, but equally capable of the inept. In a European Championship year, he is clearly going to be under more scrutiny beyond just Everton fans. Every mistake will be on the back pages, will be discussed on all the podcasts and will be subject of discussion on MotD, 5Live and beyond.

How can he respond? Our hope is that he gets through this spell and comes out stronger. If Pickford gets back to doing the basics right, then he would be amongst the best in the league. But he is currently a liability.

Hopefully they have a plan in Finch Farm.

Arthur Westhead
86 Posted 18/10/2020 at 16:53:33
Charles 73, Michael 74, Pickford had a superb match?

At 1-0 down, he makes a terrible decision to rush out and 'tackle' Van Dijk. But for a millimetre decision going our way, he gives away a penalty and gets sent off. So 2-0 down, 10 men, 80 mins to play. I dread to think what the score may have been.

Yes, he made one great save and another good one, but that is what a goalkeeper is supposed to do!

Then, in injury time, he lets a very soft shot, more of a pass, squirm through his hands to gift them a win. But we are saved by another millimetre decision.

He spreads panic in our box every time the ball comes in. He seems hyperactive to me, when we need a calm influence to inspire confidence for our defence. If this was his first such mess up then yes we could move on – but it's the just another in a line of many. For me, no way does he play in our next game.

Rick Tarleton
87 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:00:14
Brian Harrison (63) sums up my own feelings about the game very well.

The issue of Pickford's quality is not of his ability to pull off magnificent saves, all Premier League keepers can do that, but of his ability to read a game and to think his way through a game. Like Tim Howard, he has the ability to produce miraculous saves, but also like Howard he panics and acts impetuously far too frequently.

His mistakes cost Everton and England goals, think Origi. Yesterday he was lucky, his mistakes went unpunished, but he is a time-bomb and does not inspire confidence in supporters or more importantly his fellow defenders.

Kuyt, Carragher, Gerrard have all escaped punishment for equally heinous crimes and, from the point of view of karma, it was just to get away with their last minute goal.

Next week is another game and we want three more points. I wish Van Dijk well and hope he returns sooner rather than later and I hope and pray that Pickford learns to control his impetuosity, and thus add to his ability to stop shots.

Danny O’Neill
88 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:03:01
As was said above Brian, goalkeeping isn't just about making great saves, although that is an obvious big part. His confidence is shot in that his flaws in terms of command of the box and rush of blood decision making are now under scrutiny, not just from Evertonians, but now the national media.

He made his name making great saves in a team that was always going to be under pressure but would always concede and that wouldn't be the goalkeepers fault.

Thats fine at Sunderland, but when you want to win things, you need a more complete package. Jordan didn't even need to come for that yesterday and would have been more effective staying in the goal. Likewise for England in the week, he rushed out and got in the way of the defender, which led to a penalty. Not entirely his fault but erratic rush of blood decision making indirectly contributed.

I like Jordan and to reiterate, for where I thought we where going into the season, hes good enough. As Tim Howard was at the time. However if we want to progress as I want to and many think we can, we might need to consider upgrading, unless he can sort out those obvious gaps that will currently prevent him from being a top keeper. I genuinely hope he does.

Joe McMahon
89 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:05:57
Rick, Tim Howard was head and shoulders better than Pickford! Jordan Pickford is an embarrassment to Everton now, and the only person in England that wants him in the England national team is the plant pot Middlesbrough relegation manager Southgate.

Casper Schmeichel would have us top 4 this season.

Brian Williams
90 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:06:21
What if, what if, what if? We could use "what if" for every single thing that happens in a football match.

What if Van Dijk had received a yellow for each of his poor challenges on Rodriguez and Calvert-Lewin? He wouldn't have been on the field and Pickford wouldn't have come up against him.

What if Robertson had been sent off for violent conduct for his lunge on Allan? What if Mane had received a second yellow for swiping at Mina off the ball? What if we'd have got a penalty when Richi's shirt was pulled inside the box when his header hit the post?

Pickford didn't give away a penalty and get sent off. He did make three excellent saves.

Dealing in facts makes sense to me; dealing with what could have happened is just fantasy football.

Brian Williams
91 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:08:21
That's not to deny that Pickford has his problems, by the way.
Danny O’Neill
92 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:21:31
Agree Brian; what player doesn't have flaws? Very few are the complete package. And I'm trying to be constructive about Jordan. There is a good keeper in there but I'm more thinking about where we are going to be in a year or two (or where I want us to be).

He can play in a team that can challenge for top 6. Can he play in a team that wants to challenge for the title? Its a next summer and beyond question, but worth looking at now.

Sukhdev Sohal
93 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:29:41
Pickford was the centre of controversy on Saturday.

On one hand, he should've got a red card and nearly cost us the game with his poor attempt to keep out Henderson's shot.

On the other, he made brilliant saves from Trent and Matip and a very good save from Salah which kept us in the game. He needs to get his erraticness out of his game. Anyone knows whether he will get banned or not?

Darren Hind
95 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:36:58
There is a difference between a player having flaws and one who's shortcomings resurface every week.

There but for the grace of a ridiculous VAR decision goes a goalkeeper who has been played the mother of all get-out-of-jail cards.

He may have made a couple of outstanding saves, but this erratic behaviour cannot go on.

Amusing to see somebody who has hammered Calvert-Lewin for four years calling Pickford's critics "idiots". Especially as one has done everything in his power to get us to the top and the other continues to be the only threat to the status.

Arthur Westhead
96 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:39:16
One point I haven't seen mentioned and could be used in Pickford's defence for his 'tackle' on Van Dijk, is how the hell was he totally unmarked at our back post?

We all know he is dangerous at corners and free-kicks, and it seemed he was being marked by Digne in the passage of play before the ball came in.

So who should have picked him up? So Pickford could argue he had to go for him.

Mike Gaynes
98 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:40:38
Fran #85 and Joe #89... Schmeichel? Really? You've got to be kidding.

Schmeichel is a formerly outstanding keeper who now commits howlers worse than anything Pickford has ever done. Try these three within two weeks this past July:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtLba7cOWrQ at 6:15 and 7:55.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaryve-ewdM at 12:00.

He's 33 now and his last three seasons have looked a lot like that. Sorry, if you think that guy will walk down the Mersey and lead us to a title... no way in hell.

I've said it before, if we're gonna replace Pickford, we need somebody better than Pickford.

Brian Williams
99 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:40:51
Danny I agree but I can't help standing up for our own when they're up against a shitstorm!

I've no doubt Ancelotti's got his plan.

Charles Brewer
100 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:41:41
The first requirement for a goalkeeper is to make saves, if possible very good saves. The second is bravery, diving in at the feet of some goon like Van Dijk is a risky business and we've seen plenty of outfield players who happily pull out of a 50:50.

When it comes to “commanding the penalty area” this is first and foremost the job of defenders, who should ideally prevent the opposition from getting into a position where they can shoot. The goal is big enough that even the best keeper in history should be beaten regularly by a team getting enough shots in, it is simply impossible for a goalkeeper to cover the entire area. This is definitely a third level requirement, no unimportant, but far less essential and should be done by a player who can operate inside or outside the penalty area.

In the modern, Ancelotti - Klopp game, distribution is very important as the defence-to-attack switch is probably the most important single tactic, and a goalkeeper who can give long effective passes is worth his weight in gold.

As for “judgment”, a goalkeeper who has to make a choice as to whether to rush out and try to play the ball (and I don't mean make himself available for a pass back from a defender under pressure) has already been let down by his defence and the outcome is probably more in the hands (or at the feet or head) of the attacker than under the goalkeeper's and control.

When football was much slower – say the 90s or earlier – and defenders were usually under little pressure once they'd got the ball, decisions could be made almost at leisure but the speed of the game is such that there is little chance for anything but a fast reaction.

If I had the choice between a goalkeeper who “commanded the penalty area” and one who stopped shots, I know who I'd go for. And Marshal Zhukov would not be my first choice for Everton.

Arthur Westhead
103 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:49:47
Charles, 100. So how would you describe Pickford's effort at 'saving' Henderson's half hit shot?

Surely we have all seen him let too many of those go in, followed by his usual childish tantrums of hitting the ground, kicking the post and sucking on his water bottle.

Mike Gaynes
104 Posted 18/10/2020 at 17:54:17
Charles #100, please stop being so thoughtful. It makes the rest of us uncomfortable.
Danny O’Neill
105 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:04:42
I get your point Charles, but disagree. We're allowed to right without falling out?!!

As an ex central defender myself, you need the goalkeeper to command the box. The keeper can see everything as they are the last man. There is nothing behind them. They are the 2nd captain as I said earlier. It is so important that the keeper barks out the orders. Look at the original Schmeichel. Total command of his box and his defence. And made great saves too, but that's why you're a keeper in the first instance as Jordan is.

Charles Brewer
106 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:05:26
Pickford didn't stop the shot which resulted from an offside pass, because, from what I could see, he slightly misjudged the flight of the ball and also appeared to hit the ground with his elbow resulting in the ball spinning up.

It wasn't very good, but then no defender hacked the ball away either, and thanks to the miracle that is 2020 VAR the goal was correctly ruled out for offside.

Neither of the RS goals was stoppable once the defence had capitulated and failed to get in the way of the attackers – they were both very well placed and well taken – no goalkeeper in history could have stopped either.

However, at least Pickford made three outstanding saves, while his predecessor, the Startled Starfish in his last few seasons, would simply have waved his arms and sat down before the shot went off. Neville Southall regularly ‘went walkabout' in the penalty area and let in goals as a result.

The fact that Pickford failed to stop a shot of no relevance to the match is part of the contingency of football.

John Pierce
107 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:10:18
Pickford has a clear pattern off poor decision making. His form over 12-18 it's clear to see his errors are mental.

His decision to come out against Van Dijk was rash. The ball was going away from goal, the player was stretching for the ball, every angle was against Van Dijk.

It reminded me of his decision to come and then retreat for Newcastle's equalizing goal. Same area of the pitch, all the angles against the player. Like I've said, a pattern of behaviour. You might go further, if he must come out, look at why he when with his legs rather than his hands?

He needs taken out of the firing line and a chance to redeem himself. I don't particularly think Olsen will make the saves Pickford can make. However, the delta between his highs and lows is much smaller. A steady keeper will tighten us up, make a defense less panicked about an erratic presence, just a calmer player.

Pickford ultimately needs a club were they are more often under the pump. His focus comes from being over employed, in the game constantly, a lower mid table side would suit him perfectly.

We will buy a new keeper in the summer, or perhaps if we are contending come December are we ruthless enough to prize a keeper away from another club?

Daniel A Johnson
108 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:11:31
Looks like Van Dijk will be out for 6-7 months following surgery to his ACL.

As for all the pundits crying foul of Pickford, none of these pundits stuck up for Gomes when Son took matters into his own hands against Gomes with a genuine shithouse challenge.

As for me, I couldn't care less... Fuck Van Dijk, fuck Liverpool. It was a 50:50 ball Pickford went in too hard and fast, let's move on. There was no intent. As they said with Son, these things happen in football.

Charles Brewer
109 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:20:35
Danny, If I wanted to chat with people who agreed with me, I wouldn't bother coming on here.

I was an exceptionally bad footballer, so my opinion is certainly not based on my own experience.

I can see why the defence would like someone assertive in goal, but if I were a manager I think I'd rather have a Tony Adams, Brian Labone, Jack Charlton, Franz Beckenbauer running the show than a Schmeichel, Southall, Gordon Banks, David Seaman, Yashin or Buffon. Not one of the second lot would pass as sane (well, maybe Banks).

Goalkeeping is about being the last-ditch defence, in a perfect game a goalkeeper would never do anything apart from take goal kicks and make the occasional pass to another player. Essentially, a goalkeeper is not a footballer except in a very attenuated sense (directing a wall is dependent entirely on the goalkeepers understanding of where the free-kick taker can put the ball and where the goalie can reach with his hands, it's not a footballing skill in anything like the same sense as shooting, dribbling, tackling or even moving off the ball.

A team with a commanding centre-half will do a lot better than a team with a commanding goalkeeper.

Charles Brewer
110 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:24:48
So John, you'd have been happier with a goalkeeper who let three more goals in yesterday than one who went for a 50:50 with Van Dijk?

I'll stick with Pickford for now.

Mike Gaynes
111 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:26:13
Charles, thank you for so immediately ceasing to be thoughtful. The Startled Starfish comment takes care of the problem. Howard was SO much better than Pickford.
Charles Brewer
112 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:30:09
Mike, he really wasn’t. Certainly in the last few seasons he was a total liability who seemed to have lost any ability to anticipate what an attacker was going to do.

His best game by far was for the USA at the World Cup, but I thought him one of the poorest goalkeepers since the Southall era.

Jack Convery
113 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:32:03
Warnock on 5 Live on Van Dijk Diagnosis. It's not good for LFC, It's not good for him, It's not good for the Premier League and it's not good for football. It was a terrible tackle.

If they could, Pickford would be being blamed for Covid-19, Brexit, Allisons back injury, etc etc.

It was a collision in a fast-paced gamed. Unlike Son, there was no intent, it was an accident and as we were told after the Son / Coleman incidents, the players concerned are not dirty – it's not in their make up.

Same applies to Pickford. An idiot at times, yes, but dirty never. Injuries occur in football matches. The fact that LFC do not have another centre-back in the same class as Van Dijk is not EFCs fault or Pickfords. We have 2 centre-backs out injured with Holgate our best being out since before the start of the season. We have just got on with it. Possibly because we are used to it.

I now expect as with Niasse's supposed dive at Palace, that retrospective action will be taken against Pickford. They will attempt to hound him out of football.

Get ready for the death threats, Jordan. They will be coming your way, if they haven't started already. No longer the clown to be laughed at but an assassin to be despised and harangued for a long, long time.

Danny Baily
114 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:36:09
Charles 114, one of our poorest keepers post Southall? That is total nonsense.

Easily the best keeper we've had post Southall. Only Martyn comes close and direct comparisons there are tricky given that they weren't different stages in their careers. The cleans sheets he amassed speak for themselves.

Danny O’Neill
115 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:41:19
Fair points Charles but I guess that's where we will agree to disagree. But that said, I think both models work, although I'll maintain that when you want to win titles, you need the keeper to be at that level.

Here's hoping Jordan can succeed.

Jack Convery
116 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:45:25
Pickford being crucified on 5 Live right now. Warnock: "It was totally reckless" and another guy saying he drop kicked Van Dijk. Basically saying he deliberately took him out.

Warnock: "I never ever went on the pitch with the thought of deliberately injuring an opponent" – ie Jordan did. This is ridiculous TRIAL BY MEDIA. EFC need to come out and make a statement about this asap. Guilty of Nothing Always the Victims.

I have noticed how quiet players from other Prem teams have been over this. Its only the pundits and the RS who are making out the second coming has been denied the human race.

Charles Brewer
117 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:47:18
Danny, I think the point in common is that someone needs to be in command in the penalty area. If you have a first class goalkeeper and leader like Schmeichel (whom I think is the best GK I have ever seen) than this is marvellous.

If you have a Beckenbauer, then the goalkeeper can be as introverted as you like!

Francis van Lierop
118 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:47:20
We have a new fan: Ruud Gullit. He was pundit for the game, and usually, they are lazily for the higher placed team (ie, Sky 6). Gullit said he was sleepie with Carlo during his AC Milan playing days.

On their first tie with Real Madrid away, Carlo expressed his dismay at Gullit sleeping like a baby, while he could hardly sleep. Gullit said, "Don't worry, Carlo, we're the better team.

And despite Madrid being gifted a penalty (as per usual), they drew the away game and won the home match, with Marco van Basten scoring, hence winning the tie.

Gullit had enjoyed the game, thinking it to be a high quality one. Something most of us would disagree with, as too many players were awol. He did think Pickford deserved a red card, despite the off-side. Something we were quite lucky with. It really was reckless on Pickford's part.

Shame we couldn't win, too many players weren't at their best. At the end, we were lucky to see their goal disallowed.

On Wednesday, Ajax play a certain team in the Champions League, don't be surprised to see Davy Klaassen feature. Yes, you read it correctly. Ajax bought him off Werder Bremen for €11M. His price seems to be going down, after the €27M we paid for himm, and the €13M Werder paid for him.

Trevor Powell
119 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:51:10
We made a big mistake. Sandro Ramirez has scored for Huesca versus Real Valladolid!
Daniel A Johnson
120 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:52:33
The way the press even the supposedly unbiased BBC are all crucifying Pickford. Trial by media has begun, I hope he has security ready for when the wall pushing reds come a-hunting around his house singing YNWA whilst having banners and burning pitchforks.

It was a 50:50 challenge he got it completely wrong but these things happen.

When Gomes had his ankle inverted 90 degrees by Son in a deliberate off the ball challenge everyone leapt top Son's defence which I was incredulous about at the time. But because it's now one of "their" players the narrative is now different. The red pundits/media are fuelling almost retaliatory action against Pickford which is simply shocking.

It's open season now on Pickford we need to rally around him and get behind him. I just hope if he's out and about he has eyes in the back of his head we all know what they are like just ask Juventus.

Danny O’Neill
121 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:54:37
Although I would wager that Beckenbauer always had a great keeper behind him. Not just a decent one.

Ratcliffe and Mountfield / Watson had Neville. Liverpool put the final piece in the puzzle with Allison.

We could go on all night, but in my humble opinion, if you are going to challenge at the highest level like those players you mention, you need the appropriate standard all over the pitch. No passengers.

Trevor Powell
122 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:57:25
All the fuss about Pickford for a rash challenge from LFC, incensed that not even a yellow card was brandished.

Some us remember the vicious tackle from Jimmy Headcase that ended Geoff Nulty's career in the eighties!

Ray Roche
123 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:57:37
Charles @214,

If you're regarding Howard as the worst keeper post-Southall, you need to give your head a wobble. Like others on here, I've been going to Goodison since the fifties and the only keepers I regard as better than Howard that I have seen are Southall, West and Martyn.

The fact that Howard carried on beyond his sell-by date is not his fault and shouldn't detract from his performances when he was at his best. He was picked to play and did so, never giving less than his best.

Kieran Kinsella
124 Posted 18/10/2020 at 18:58:09
Get over this trial by media. Pickford's become an easy target largely because we the Everton fans have been haranguing him. The British mentality is to pile on.

It was a reckless challenge, Liverpool will whine and then next week it'll be forgotten and someone else will be the villain.

I'm just enjoying this season we don't need to seek out reasons to play the victim or be unhappy. We are Number One.

Charles Brewer
125 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:00:34
How interesting that what was clearly not a deliberate attempt to injure a player gets all the attention. Liverpool have employed a thuggish goon to take out players on the other side since time immemorial. The latest is van Dijk and he is no loss to the game.

If Van Dijk had not gone in flailing his legs like Bambi on crack, he would probably just have gone over. Given the player involved, I suspect it was far more likely Van Dijk was trying to injure Pickford than vice versa.

Basically, tough. The Redshite have got away with (literal) murder for years, and are part of the Swamp that is European football. Any misfortune is to be enjoyed.

Mike Gaynes
126 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:04:24
Daniel #123,

Son didn't invert Gomes's ankle, and it wasn't off the ball. Son deliberately chopped Gomes as he was dribbling.

Gomes slid into Aurier's leg, and it was THAT contact that actually broke his leg.

Charles Brewer
127 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:04:41
Just for clarity, I said that Howard was “the Startled Starfish in his last few seasons”, and stand by that. He stayed too long and became a serious liability.
Michael Lynch
128 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:07:06
I'll shed no tears for the Shite or for Van Dijk, he's a snidey twat. As for the foul itself, I wish Pickford was the sort of goalie to clean out an attacker every now and then, he might command his area a bit better. But in reality, he's pretty timid so there's no way he deliberately set out to smash Van Dijk, it was just mis-timed.

If the RS and their media arse-lickers want to cruficy Pickford, I hope the rest of football will see them for what they are – cry-baby hypocrites who are outraged by everything and ashamed of nothing.

John Pierce
129 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:13:00
Charles, you're entitled to stick with Pickford. But there's no balance there. I can see what strengths Pickford has, even can applaud him when he makes critical saves. He's an instinctive, reflex keeper. His saves yesterday speak to that, actions without thought. It's seem your loyalty is blind and without evidence.

I ask myself at 0-0, in the first 5 minutes of an important game why is my keeper trying to get involved with a high risk, low reward play? It's completely unnecessary? That's all about judgement which is the first and best quality of a goalkeeper. If he stays tight to his near post, Van Dijk – a great player but no Van Basten – gives him a low percentage shot to save, he probably won't get even the ball on target and/or with good purchase.

Let's say even if miraculously he scores with a thunder-bastard of a shot, Jordan stays on the pitch and can influence the game positively. I'd say 99/100 that play leads to a penalty and a red card. I'm not happy with a player in a key position who misjudges a situation that badly on a persistent basis.

Jay Harris
130 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:15:31
The unfortunate thing is it is being reported that the FA can apply a retrospective ban if they deem fit.

If they do that, we should all send Robertson's leg-breaking attempt on Allan to the FA so they can apply their rules without bias... Haha!

Danny Baily
131 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:18:24
No malice in it so no need for any apology. Pickford is just plain terrible, that's the reason Van Dijk is out for months.
Ian Jones
132 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:21:05
Sorry, Charles... whatver our general thoughts are on Van Dijk, it's ridiculous to say "Given the player involved, I suspect it was far more likely Van Dijk was trying to injure Pickford than vice versa."

Rob Halligan
133 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:23:50
Sounds like Pickford needs to barricade himself into his car in the coming weeks, a bit like Clint Eastwood did with that bus in the film The Gauntlet.

The one thing I will say in his favour, is that once he had committed himself to the block / challenge, or whatever you want to call it, he had to continue with it, as to try and pull out or go in half hearted, could have resulted in serious injury for himself.

For anyone who's played the game, you are always told to go into a tackle / challenge full-blooded, or risk serious injury going in half-hearted. I still can't fathom out what he was trying to do, nor, I suspect does Pickford himself.

John McFarlane Snr
134 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:24:15
Hi all, lost in the Pickford - Van Dijk debate is the part Liverpool played in the proposed reconstruction of football in England. It would seem that they are now attempting to influence the disciplinary and controversial incident procedure.

I wonder how many of their players have committed fouls that didn't receive the necessary punishment, or how many offside decisions were ruled in their favour in error. In football as in life, you win some, or lose some.

Kevin Molloy
135 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:25:30
I'm sick of seeing our chap make crass error after crass error. Let's look on the inevitable ban as a blessing and give the reserve a try.

Real shame for Van Dijk, probably best defender around, and he's out for the season cos of Brainless.

It won't improve relations between the two clubs one little bit, at lease it wasn't deliberate. What we don't want is a cloud of recrimination to descend on our season when everyone has been in such good spirits.

Martin Mason
136 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:29:46
RS mob rule must not be allowed to win or football is finished. What they want is for absolute thuggery to only be okay if they do it.
Daniel A Johnson
137 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:29:50
Jesus, Kevin [138]...

Send him a card and a balloon will ya.

Brian Williams
138 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:31:36
What the we don't want is a cloud of recrimination to descend. 

You mean recrimination against our brainless crass error after crass error making keeper?

Karl Meighan
139 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:31:46
Let's not forget Pickford has not played behind a real solid defence since he arrived.

The key for me is he limits his mistakes, every player will make them and then, when called upon at the big moments or in games where he might not be so busy, he keeps the ball out the net. He did it at Spurs which played a big part in us taking the points.

He may not be the best but he is not a poor keeper imo and he hates being beaten and works hard and deserves our support. If the defenders manage to become miserly, that will be a better time to judge.

Tom Bowers
140 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:31:59
Might be Pickford deserves a rest and just maybe Olsen will do a decent job as a replacement. On the bright side, Everton are top of the league even with a ''shaky'' keeper.

So let's see what happens but RS should not be allowed to manipulate the league.

On a side note, how about those Hammers. 3-0 down with 8 minutes left. Moyes spinning his magic???

Martin Mason
141 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:33:22
Notice that the offside is now forgotten as the mob realises it was correct.
Kevin Molloy
142 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:36:07
Brian, no. There is a danger that they kick up such a fuss that it takes away the good vibes we've built up around the club. Their fans are already linking this and Richarlison's awful tackle, and alleging we set out to injure their players. Mud like that can stick even when it's rubbish.
John Pierce
143 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:37:16
Rob, I'm still mystified why he came out all at, the mind boggles why he went with his legs?!

Coming out vertically so to speak he made his profile thin and low percentage. Going with his studs gives you zero room for error too.

He led with legs I suspect because he had to leap into the challenge, which tells me he couldn't get there and adds further questions about his judgement. Because every he had to leap, and was now out of control clearly demonstrates it wasn't a 50:50 challenge.

I could almost defend him if he went down with his hands and spread himself horizontally, a much bigger body shape and far more control with his hands, increasing his percentage and lowering Van Dijk's. He could of then slide into the tackle and control his momentum and increase the chances of Van Dijk colliding with him. He'd get the foul for sure.

His actions are of a player who is trying too hard to make an impact when not necessary.

Oliver Molloy
144 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:38:05
Well, opposing players might think twice of any 50-50s with Calamity Pickford from now on!

I hope everyone knows that the biased will bring that Van Dijk tackle, injury up at every opportunity they get and let's hope it is quite often because that will probably mean losses and draws for them.

Fuck them all, what goes around comes around, it really is amazing how hypocritical the pundits and red shite fans are.

If he hasn't already, Calamity will be receiving death threats.

Brian Williams
145 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:38:58
Kevin, do you not see the absolute recrimination in your own post?
The very recrimination you wish against?
Brian Williams
146 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:41:07
I wish I could attach a photo I've just received via Whatsapp and Van Dijk's explanation for a horror tackle he made while playing against Napoli.
Kevin Molloy
147 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:42:09
I wasn't calling for a ban on criticism of poor decisions, Brian. Rather I was expressing concern that the club could be behind the eight ball as a result of the actions of our error-prone goalkeeper.
Mike Hughes
148 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:43:54
Everyone knows Pickford can be rash. So perhaps Van Dijk should be blamed for not getting out of the way. Inconsiderate bastard. Has anyone considered what he's put poor Jordan through?

It wouldn't surprise me if this knocked Covid and Brexit off the news headlines tomorrow. Our self-entitled, knuckle-dragging neighbours may have their very own “Je suis Vincent” rally, complete with accompanying limp. Arseholes.

Mike Gaynes
149 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:44:37
Rob #136, one of my favorite movies.
Geoff Lambert
150 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:48:17
Darren Hind.

Na it doesn't matter...


Rob Halligan
151 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:48:59
Brian, I've had the same picture, and it's a horrific challenge by Van Dijk on the Napoli player. A definite career threatening challenge. Don't know what the outcome was, was Van Dijk sent off and / or was the Napoli player seriously injured?
Rob Halligan
152 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:50:28
You can see the challenge through this link.

https://talksport.com/football/459663/liverpool-virgil-van-dijk-napoli-dries-mertens-david-seaman/

John Pierce
153 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:53:28
Rob, just yellow for Van Dijk. Not that type of player. 😭😭😭
Darren Hind
154 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:54:35
Amazing how often people will flag them selves up.

Back to Pickford; Who cares what the RS say? I'm far more concerned with his errors that lead to goals than I am about a mistimed challenge against RS.

Will Mabon
155 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:56:57
Rob, it was Mertens's fault for dwelling too long in that spot. Engineered the foul.
Brian Williams
156 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:56:59
Thanks for providing the link guys, and showing me up to be a complete numpty, you unfeeling baaasatards!

But seriously...

Anthony Dove
157 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:58:10
We have a really serious problem with our goalkeeper. Without a steady, not necessarily spectacular, keeper, you have no chance of success.

Pickford has been a bundle of nerves for some time. His tackle on Van Dijk was really no great surprise nor his failure to stop Henderson's shot.

The problem going forward is that, on top of his already erratic goalkeeping, he is now faced with the wrath of the mob for the Van Dijk incident. Lucky for him that there are no crowds.

We now have four inadequate keepers. Some very poor and costly decision-making there.

Brian Williams
158 Posted 18/10/2020 at 19:59:40
The photo I got had Van Dijk's explanation for the tackle attached... which was as sickening as the tackle itself.
Kevin Molloy
159 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:01:14
Darren,

I think Carlo could be affected by it. It's certainly possible. He likes to be liked. If Klopp gives Everton both barrels for the next two months, it could become problematic. Not for the fans, but for morale at Finch Farm.

Let's face it, we could well have ended their season this weekend. He is their most important player. They are going to be spitting after this.

Of course, you can say 'Who cares?' but, if you're Carlo, he won't want to be pulled into this sort of thing. Fact is, it was so unnecessary.

Rick Tarleton
160 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:03:22
I'm sure Pickford was impetuous rather than malicious, but he has seriously injured a fellow professional. Despite Shankly's notorious dictum about football being more important than life or death, it isn't. Nor should we be glorifying in Van Dijk's injury as one or two are.

Last season, Gomes was injured in a similar fashion and he has yet to regain his pre-injury form. Football is important, but let's not lose our perspective.

Will Mabon
161 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:04:36
Here's one, Brian, may or may not be what you read:


Link

Dave Abrahams
162 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:05:01
Brian I got that tackle up on Utube,Ancoletti said if it would have been on VAR it would have been a red card, as it was he got a yellow and was suspended for the next game, must have been carded in other games. The tackle itself was horrendous, the Dutchman blamed the wet surface that carried him into the tackle,lucky he didn’t break the lad’s leg.
Mike Gaynes
163 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:05:14
Rob #154, I looked it up for you. Van Dijk got a yellow. The foul was on Dries Mertens, who played on another 50 minutes before being subbed off. And he didn't miss any subsequent Napoli games.

Carlo thought it was a red:
https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/ancelotti-van-dijk-deserved-red-for-mertens-tackle/ayfs7upnx77ezivfnnyl9tk1

Van Dijk claimed innocence:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2810424-virgil-van-dijk-defends-tackle-on-dries-mertens-after-carlo-ancelotti-comments


Mike Hughes
164 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:08:43
Rick #163,

I tend to agree with you despite my comment. However, it is the attitude and red-tinted viewpoint of the media and our rather obnoxious neighbours that lessens my own empathy.

Pickford did not go in for the kill. It was clumsy. But this will be played with the usual sickening “outraged by everything, ashamed of nothing” stance of the RS.

Tony Hill
165 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:10:18
Kevin@163, that's why we have to show the strength of mind to ignore their inevitable complaints. It will be a test.

Doesn't say much for the great champions if their season depends on one player.

Will Mabon
166 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:10:27
Here's the YT clip of it - a real beaut:


Link

Rick Tarleton
167 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:13:56
Mike, Liverpool have adopted such an attitude of non blame ever since Heysel. We are better than that and must ignore their falsehoods.
Robert Tressell
168 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:14:43
I'm not really bothered about Van Dijk. I'm not rejoicing or sorrowful. I just don't care. As far as injuries go, I'm only interested in when Holgate, Coleman and Gbamin might be available.

Delighted for Godfrey, who looks a player. Delighted for Calvert-Lewin who simply couldn't be a better role model for our young lads. Lots more to come from this team.

Darren Hind
169 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:20:21
Kevin,

Carlo Ancelotti has managed and played with some of the most brutal players who have played the game. If there's one person in the game who will not give a fuck about Klopp's bleatings, it is him.

I've spent a lot of today amusing myself by trawling RS websites (it's one of my guilty pleasures when they are up in arms). Some are even suggesting Carlo put Pickford up to that challenge. Many of them hate him.

The more they hate him, the more I like him.

Barry Rathbone
170 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:20:22
I like VAR.

On Pickford, delighted he made some saves and didn't throw one in but we know historically the next game will see him return to strange person status.

Don Alexander
171 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:26:32
Welcome to the ever-expanding club Sukhdev (#94). As and when the Bramley-Moore Dock stadium is built, those of us who Dazza's tried to take to task can maybe fill one side!

The thing that struck me most re the match was Klopp saying he'd never seen his team play better away in his five years in charge.

We were ordinary, but they couldn't beat us.

'Nuff said.

Tony Abrahams
172 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:27:02
The more they hate him, the more I like him. I don't know if you meant Ancelotti or Pickford, Darren, but either way we have got to get right behind Pickford now (even if I'd prefer he got a rest) because he's more clumsy than malicious, and these bastards are fine whenever things go their way... but the minute it doesn't then there is outrage.
Brian Williams
173 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:30:27
Will#164. Yep thats what I read mate, thanks for that.
John Pierce
175 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:31:19
I'd reckon step the lad down for both Southampton and Newcastle away (a game he has really struggled with emotionally) let him think about his position and bring him back for Man Utd at home. A touch of pop psychology.

Alex Ferguson held Rooney back several times for visits to Goodison until he could get a grip of himself. Why not eh?

Jerome Shields
177 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:34:00
I can't believe the sympathy that Liverpool and Van Dijk are getting regarding his injury, especially from the Red Echo.

Gomes didn't get anything like the sympathy regarding the dangerous and intentional play by Son. He got his red card rescinded. Within a month, he got a red card for a similar challenge.

In this case, the tackle is neither a foul or intentional. Van Dijk just got caught in a challenge and there is little chance such a challenge will happen this season.

Chris Lyons
179 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:44:09
I have just read that Graeme Souness has had a go at Pickford's foul saying it was assault!!! Graeme Souness!!!!

The man occasionally tried to play the ball rather than the man and was very proud about being a ‘hard man'. All of a sudden he is hammering a player who made a bad challenge rather than a deliberate attempt to hurt someone which I am not sure Souness can say about many of his challenges/assaults.

I agree Pickford's foul was not good and would not wish injury even on Van Dijk but the media needs to move on.

For us as blues, like him or not, we need to be uniting behind Pickford.

Tony Abrahams
180 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:52:58
The squeaking hinge gets the oil, Jerome, I'm very surprised you can't believe the pandering that's going on right now, mate.

If Pickford gets a retrospective ban because Oliver says he never saw the incident properly, then Everton have got to step forward and ask him why he never went to the pitch-side monitor then.

Then we must contest a retrospective little sly kick from Mane, because this was impossible for the ref to see because he had his back to the incident.

I was fuming yesterday over the VAR decision that cost Liverpool the game. Honestly I don't give a fuck about our neighbours, if the boot was on the other foot, they'd take it all day, but I care about football, and I care about one rule for one, but another rule for others.

Evertonians have had the answers for the outraged Liverpudlians all weekend, so if the media want to push things and get involved, I hope “our club” gives them the answers they deserve.

These things happen in football, it wasn't nice, it never is, but it's not the first time a player has had a serious injury on a football pitch, and it definitely won't be the last time either.

The outrage is bigger because Van Dijk, is obviously a big loss, but it wasn't premeditated, or doesn't that matter in football anymore?

Ashley Roberts
181 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:56:43
I don't like to hear of any professional footballer getting seriously injured, even those from the red enemy. I don't believe Pickford intended to injure Van Dijk but these things happen during such high intensity games.

I am more worried what will the boss do over the next 3 games without Richarlison? This is worrying as we do not have a replacement now that Kean has gone to PSG and Theo to Southampton. I cannot see Bernard or Iwobi even remotely filling this void.

What about Simms? I also cannot believe we did not replace Kean after he left. Also, Richarlson will miss the game against Man Utd. This is not good news.

Jamal Paktongko
182 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:57:38
The offside decision makes up for the own goal Westerveld scored off the back of Hutchison which was disallowed by the referee for no apparent reason.
Paul Birmingham
183 Posted 18/10/2020 at 20:59:10
Football is a contact sport, and games are won, drawn and lost, and unfortunately players ge injured.

The RS can moan and moan. Very short memories they have, very selective memories.

The Sky Sports Circus, will never change, and Yozzer and his ex RS cronies, spew their tripe and again have selective recall.

Time for Evertonians to stick tight and transcend the bull shit negative press the club is facing.

Not one mention on the media, of the cheating that Mane does every match, and the tackles that he, and Robertson, done yesterday.

Next game up and EFC, is at last showing character and guts.

Both traits will be needed at Soton, and through out this season.

Tony Abrahams
184 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:02:00
If Souness has said this then it must be true, because he has probably got more previous than anyone. That dirty poacher turned gamekeeper, really is incredible.

We have got to stand up and fight, the red media leaves us no option, otherwise our team will be on the end of loads of bad decisions, at a time when the stars seem to be aligning.

Jamal Paktongko
185 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:05:11
It was never a red card for Pickford simply because it was a 50-50 ball and what Pickford did was simply extending his feet to reach the ball as opposed to a lunging tackle for the ball at another player's feet.
Anthony Murphy
186 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:05:38
As a person from the great city of Liverpool, I have always found them a huge embarrassment. Season after season, year after year, they flag something up as unjust. Their arrogance and sense of entitlement is something you could aim at other clubs too, but this constant narrative of unfair treatment is a total embarrassment and plays right in to the hands of the self pity city merchants.

Can't they accept players get injured all the time playing football? Or that sometimes you are robbed of a decision? I distance myself as much as possible from them because I don't want to be associated in any way. They are the Donald Trump of Football – a successful, global brand but with no class, massively arrogant and completely lacking humility.

John Pierce
187 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:07:22
Sousness can most certainly empathize. He knows better than anyone how to set out to injure a player.
Tony Abrahams
188 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:08:32
I’m getting boring I know, but has anyone mentioned the shirt tug on Richarlison by Arnold, which made up for the injustice at the end Jamal.

I am boring, I know, (I’m fuckin getting ready by mimicking the outraged) but Michael Oliver has given some really soft penalties this season, so he definitely showed his true colours yesterday imo, when he never spotted this obvious infringement, because he’s been sharper than a dagger all season.

Tony Everan
189 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:16:44
I’m starting to think the RS alumni are all getting a bit worried about Everton. We are top of the league, have got some real class players , some excellent young players, a world class manager who is improving the whole club. A dof who is now doing the business. A glittering, world class stadium on the river that will be the pride of Merseyside. Mr Moshiri and Mr Usmanov firmly behind the whole Everton project.

Forget the rough and tumble of yesterday , those injuries could happen in any particular derby. We’ve seen it all over the years, it’s a byproduct of the rivalry. Sometimes it’s a matter of luck to come out unscathed in these fierce games.

I think we are starting to see the annoyance and the subconscious acceptance showing its head that Everton are back. Not just because we have had a good start but because there is an underlying strength to this upturn. Everton are no longer here to lie down or make up the numbers, they’ll have to get used to it.

Mike Hughes
190 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:20:53
R5L
Elaine from Peterborough. ”there’s always violence at Goodison. ”
You couldn’t make this shit up.
Mirallas on Suarez etc.
She sounds more cucumber sandwich / C of E country fair than footy fan.
Fuck right off.
Oliver Molloy
191 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:27:39
Yep, Souness did say on the telly that it was an assault on Van Dijk.

He soon fucked up when Carragher gave his take on the incident. He said that he didn't believe Calamity set out to injure Van Dijk and he was clumsy - these things happen in football he said and, when Souness tried to speak again, Carragher told him to wise up basically, calling him out for his many attempts to deliberately injure opponents.

As I said earlier, we can expect this to go on and on!

Will Mabon
192 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:27:54
Tony, I think you may be right. Winning probably isn't enough for the RS. It's also about the other side losing (to paraphrase an old billionaire).

I'm gradually starting to enjoy the bleating.

Rob Halligan
193 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:42:33
Mike # 192. I heard that. What an absolute tosser. She blamed Mirallas for the tackle on ratboy, not citing the fact it was a revenge tackle by Mirallas after ratboy raked his studs right down the back of Mirallas's leg.
Jerome Shields
194 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:44:08
Tony #182,

Pandering is an apt word. Players get injuries, which can be serious. It is one of the joys of football. Everton are dealing with it all the time.

The fact is that Liverpool's chances of retaining titles this season are slim. They drew and could've got beaten by Everton. They did give it their best and are now worried.

Their supporters in the media and their bleeding heart pandering is going to go on all season. Getting hammered by Aston Villa has put the wind up them, because they know they are exposed as far as the lower half of the table is concerned.

Jerome Shields
195 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:46:37
Glad to see Carragher give a true account of the incident. There is some good blue blood in him.
Mike Hughes
196 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:48:27
Rob #195
Exactly!
She sounded a typical placky red.
On the verge of blubbing and probably been nowhere near a footy match in her life.
Us nasty Blues, eh?
Stupid cow.
All this red-infested media is starting to take its toll.
Savage and Sutton are on right pair of tits as well.
Rob Halligan
197 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:50:29
Mike, on the verge of blubbing she was on the verge of cracking up. I could almost see the tears flowing out the radio!
Will Mabon
198 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:53:16
It's... it's... happening. The Devil is adopting The Blues...
Dave Abrahams
199 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:58:10
Will (200), is he? He can fuck off, he’s made his bed and he can fuckin’ lie on it.
Will Mabon
200 Posted 18/10/2020 at 21:59:10
Dave - haha!
Mike Hughes
201 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:02:27
Chris Sutton admitted live on air last week that he went out to hurt players once or twice in his career. Now getting on his high horse about Pickford. And he couldn’t remember the Son tackle on Gomes. As I recall, Son seemed to get more sympathy than Gomes did after the incident.

Christ Almighty, the RS will have a hotline to The Samaritans next.
“Just step away from the ledge for a minute, mate. I’ve got a priority call coming through from a Liverpool fan in Peterborough. Back in a few minutes.”

Gobshites.

Rob Halligan
202 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:08:34
If you want a good laugh, listen to this RS tosser from Peterborough. It's the first caller so very near the start. It's the radio 5 live-listen live.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_five_live

John Boswell
203 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:20:29
Tony @ 190, my observations of referees and penalty awards is that if the attacker, despite being fouled, manages to get a shot/header away, they will not award a penalty. The effort on goal can be as weak as builder's tea because of the foul but they ignore that.

Was it only last season that Liverpool's centre-half challenged our Dom and forcefully used both hands to push him over as he took his shot, which flew wide. The ref awarded a goal kick.

I feel that a rotten rule, VAR, saved us from defeat yesterday but they did not deserve the win they sought. COYB.

Rob Halligan
204 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:29:13
All this talk about whether Pickford intended to hurt Van Dijk, I would ask, if Pickford intended to hurt anyone, surely it would be one of Mane, Salah or Firmino, players who will cause you trouble?

Van Dijk might be a great player, but he plays centre-half for a reason, because he's not a centre-forward, and therefore less likely to score against you.

Will Mabon
205 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:32:29
I've just moved the car and heard part of that call, Rob. It was used as a continuity piece, Sutton & Savage are on. Guess it will be a bit of a "Feature". Sutton apparently believes Pickford did it deliberately ffs, intended, was having it out with an Everton caller.

It's all becoming beyond ridiculous – too useful as a distraction as well, in the wider picture.

Dermot O’Brien
206 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:34:57
When I first saw this, there was only one team it could be. For anyone not familiar with the Scottish comedy Burnistoun:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wtgpJw6A-_g
FTRS.

Dermot O'Brien
207 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:37:14
Mike Doyle
208 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:37:58
Rob @203,

As you live in the city, I suggest you refer all complainants to the Jimmy Case tackle on Geoff Nulty.

Rob Halligan
209 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:40:46
Will, there was another RS on towards the end, who thinks it was an agenda by Everton players to hurt their players. He even went onto say he thought Richarlison wanted to turn back on the pitch and have another go at Alcantara, for having the audacity to stay on the floor.

It's funny, but I didn't hear any RS caller say Robertson should have walked for his lunge on Allan, the sly trip by mane on Mina, or the fact that Van Dijk done Rodriguez twice in the first few minutes. Now that was intent, their aim early doors was to try and put James out the game.

Rob Halligan
210 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:46:20
Don't worry, Mike, that's top of the list, closely followed by Slippys stamp on Gary Naysmith's chest then Dick Kuyt's karate kick on Phil Neville.
Jay Harris
211 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:50:48
Souness is a first class wanker.

I remember being on a table with him and Grobelaar at a sports dinner one time and my mate (a kopite) asked if he could borrow my pen to get their autographs and I said "You're joking, he'll drop it and he'll stand on it".

Grobelaar laughed but Souness gave me an icy stare. We bumped into each other a few times after that because we were both chasing girls who used to work in an employment agency on Bold Street and he was always an arrogant sour-faced prick.

Mike Connolly
212 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:54:39
Rob @209,

Just listen to that woman, she was unbelievable. She said she'd been going to these matches for years. No mention of all the bad fouls against us.
However, not to worry – today's Big 6 is not what the media had expected. COYB

Peter Roberts
214 Posted 18/10/2020 at 23:01:48
Tony #172

What's going to be even more galling for them is that Klippety and Carlo were laughing off the absurdity of the VAR decision together at the end.

The guy is absolute class.

Will Mabon
215 Posted 18/10/2020 at 23:29:43
Thing is, we've heard more sobbing and whining in 24 hours than I've heard from our fans my whole life, and that includes having Europe taken away from us in the 80s. A lot of it is being hyped to the clouds by the media with callers, pundits etc but the RS fans are certainly giving them the raw material.

Like I said earlier, it's becoming satisfying... we can just stay classy and march on...

Mark Taylor
216 Posted 18/10/2020 at 23:38:26
The Pickford tackle is a sideshow. Unlike some players, Pickford has no malice in him, he's just a bit brainless, as we all know, and that was a brainless tackle. For malice, see Souness or Keane, players who were proud to maim people.

Although we were maybe fortunate to draw on balance, and I think VAR should replace Mina at the back – much more reliable – what pleased me was that for once, we created a pile of chances. Compare Saturday to that other draw we had a while back when Dom managed to win a penalty, just about our only threat on goal and even then it was a soft penalty. We were basically awful in that game, almost embarrassing.

Not this time though. We gave very nearly as good as we got, on another day may even have won and that was not us having a stellar day, in fact a load of players – Allan, Doucoure and Richie – were some way below their normal level, while Gomes was shocking. Sad that, because when he joined, he looked like the only class player in the side. Now he looks slow and his passing is lousy. Is it not time to try Bernard in that position? At least he has a bit more energy.

I hope we don't just stick Iwobi in instead of Richie. Unless Gordon is rubbish in training, what I've seen in matches suggests he will bring a lot more vigour and pace than Iwobi ever could. The only silver lining is that Richarlison looks like he needed a rest and now he'll get one.

Daniel A Johnson
217 Posted 18/10/2020 at 00:03:07
As an Evertonian I'm still laughing my arse off about their disallowed "winner", it gets funnier the more I watch it.

Fuck that football club. Hate them with every ounce of my soul.

As for Van Dijk so what? A player injured in a 50:50 – not the first, won't be the last.

Pickford is many things – a brain-dead fucking goon maybe... a malicious calculated hitman? You're having a laugh.

I'm raising a glass to Liverpool... oh my aching sides... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Wayne Dinkelman
218 Posted 19/10/2020 at 00:21:56
It's all down to Cazoo it seems... both us and Aston Villa undefeated in the Premier League and they are major sponsors of both of us.
Derek Thomas
219 Posted 19/10/2020 at 01:29:57
They still crying then? – Fuck 'em.

Mike Gaynes
220 Posted 19/10/2020 at 02:04:03
Yep, Wayne, I've speculated before that the most popular person in the entire Cazoo organization is the marketing person in charge of footy sponsorships. Whoever it is can sure pick 'em.
Mick Davies
221 Posted 19/10/2020 at 02:17:31
Never before have I agreed with Darren, but he is right here: all those Pickford apologists, after all the shit Robles got on here for one mistake, are probably the ones who called Dom a Championship player.

If there's one thing I associate with the dark side, but not us, is hypocrisy, but this thread has my blood boiling. Pickford is a disaster looming: we've only played a handful of games and he hasn't had much to do, but how many howlers has he made already?

As for flying into Van Dijk knee-high with both feet, why didn't he jump on the ball, like goalies do? Or, if he couldn't reach it, retreat back into position? It was a stupid and cowardly act which was unnecessary.

We all thought the fans made him nervous... well, what's his excuse now? And midweek for England? The truth is, he may make good saves, which he trains for all week, but his lack of common-sense and his erratic character tell me he isn't good enough for the Everton that Carlo is creating.

I for one hope he gets a retrospective ban, as it may give him time to reflect and maybe visit a psychiatrist, and I'm sure Olsen can't be any worse.

As for that stupid comment from Charles about Southall going walkabout!!! FFS, we would have won the double if he hadn't got injured – the greatest goalkeeper I've ever seen!!!

Derek Knox
222 Posted 19/10/2020 at 02:27:55
Dermot @207, thanks for the link, there are some good programmes from Scottish Television, I don't know why they don't give them more 'air time' in England, considering some of the absolute garbage that is dished up.

Would leave some of those so called 'comedies' and those masquerading as Comedians, a reality check and a run for their ill-gotten money. Mind you, I am a tad biased in that direction. :-)

Kieran Kinsella
223 Posted 19/10/2020 at 03:46:33
Jay,

Souness can be summed up by the fact he sold his heart attack exclusive to The Sun in the midst of the investigation into Hillsborough. Complete classless ass clown.

The only good thing he ever did was ending Rangers' embargo on Catholics but even that, he probably didn't do to be good, he probably did it just to piss off the UVF Rangers contingent as he is a contrary 'see you next Tuesday'.

Kieran Kinsella
224 Posted 19/10/2020 at 03:52:00
Mick Daviesm

I'm not bothered if Pickford gets banned as Robin Olsen sounds like a DC / Marvel superhero crossover between Jimmy Olsen and Robin from Batman. Physically and in terms of career, he may look like Lössl 2.0 but his name suggests something much better.

Jamal Paktongko
225 Posted 19/10/2020 at 03:56:28
I'm sorry to repeat this but, in order for us to challenge for the number one spot, we need to bring Lookman and Barkley back to Goodison.

We would also be wise to bring Jack Wilshere in as cover for Rodriguez.

My gut tells me we can finish 1st this season if we focus and keep our heads down.

Jamal Paktongko
226 Posted 19/10/2020 at 04:01:00
I bet Peter Johnson must be turning in his grave right now seeing how well we have done.

All his effort of turning us into a Second Division club is now futile.

I bet the RS Board must've paid him a King's ransom for the sabotage he did to our club.

He is a crook and will always be one even in the afterlife.

Matt Traynor
227 Posted 19/10/2020 at 05:06:08
Jamal #227, Peter Johnson probably isn't turning in his grave as he is very much alive, at 80.

From my personal experience with his group at the time, I would say they were incompetent and naive rather than saboteurs. They certainly put more money into the club than the self-styled biggest Evertonian ever (who made a fortune from the club – unlike Johnson et al).

But then I see you recommend bringing Jack Wilshire in as cover, so assume you're on the wind-up.

Annika Herbert
228 Posted 19/10/2020 at 05:36:21
Mick @ 222, do you hope Pickford gets a retrospective ban? Unfortunately I have to completely disagree.

Whilst I admit his performances leave a lot to be desired, I don't want him banned because of a game against the red shite.

Nor would I consider the challenge on Van Dijk cowardly.

Albert Perkins
229 Posted 19/10/2020 at 05:48:04
The FA will make the reasonable decision that we must have our best defender's left leg amputated to make up for the terrible ungodly act towards Van Dijk.

On a positive note, I thought Godfrey did well. Also, Klopp commented that he knew we were about to score the second when Luca's ball was in the air and he heard the Everton bench shout, 'That's it!." Now that's confidence in your player.

Gonna miss Richarliosn running at defenses for a few matches. Hope Gordon gets the nod and shows what he can do.

Paul Ward
230 Posted 19/10/2020 at 07:07:36
Mick Davis @222, Shouldn't your comments about Pickford be on one of those rs sites Darren posted about?

The only difference with the RS is they don't condemn their own players, like you have.

Not many of us are happy with the errors Pickford makes but his collision with Van Dijk earned us a point.

Martin Mason
231 Posted 19/10/2020 at 09:04:49
We may struggle without Richarlison, his defensive qualities are a key to how well we've been playing.

Mina is a worry, he doesn't seem to be quite good enough at the highest level.

Craig Walker
232 Posted 19/10/2020 at 09:17:15
Jamal @226. I think I'm right in saying (I'd have to check) that we never lost a derby game under Peter Johnson. I'm pretty certain we never lost a Goodison derby game. I'm not defending his regime, at all.
Daniel A Johnson
233 Posted 19/10/2020 at 09:17:50
Mick @222,

Seriously, you want a retrospective ban for what happened to one of them?

Seriously, one of our own players?

Christopher Timmins
234 Posted 19/10/2020 at 09:29:32
Well, for the first time in ages, we got the rub of the green on Saturday. The big calls went our way and we took a point from the game. Charlie will be missed in the upcoming games but we just have to get on with it.

With regards to our Number 1, he is a liability and is brainless but he is not an assassin! He lost the run of himself in the International game during the week and he did the same on Saturday.

Playing poorly and getting results is a good sign and long may it continue. We have three upgrades from last season and the boy from Norwich may well be a fourth.

Expecting 3 points next weekend at Southampton.

Geoff Cadman
235 Posted 19/10/2020 at 09:36:30
Does anybody really expect Van Dijk to be out for the season surely such a bad injury would have required a stretcher. He seemed to have little trouble walking the long way round back to the carpark. All to increase the pressure to ban Jordan, followed by an amazing recovery.

On a lighter note, Clattenburg has just admitted he should've sent Dirk Kuyt off... one down, 2 to go. Next up: an apology from Clive Thomas.

Eddie Dunn
236 Posted 19/10/2020 at 09:42:28
Did I imagine it or did Klopp not say at the postmatch interview that Virgil had been having pain in the knee for some time but had played on. I think meaning he had a pre-existing problem which became ruptured in the incident. If so, then their medical team has fucked-up have they not?
Ray Roche
237 Posted 19/10/2020 at 09:53:15
Geoff, it doesn't work like that. If you remember, Bolasie walked off after doing his ACL against Man Utd. He didn't need a stretcher but was out for months.
Brian Harrison
238 Posted 19/10/2020 at 09:59:28
Ray @237,

I remember Bolasie just walking off the pitch, and I thought he will be out for a couple of weeks, then a couple of days later the club made a statement saying he had damaged his ACL and he was indeed out for the season. Most ACL injuries take many months after surgery to repair itself, so I would be amazed if Van Dijk played again this season.

Craig Walker
239 Posted 19/10/2020 at 09:59:38
Didn't Alan Smith break his leg at Anfield and the crowd all started chanting hateful stuff at him and wasn't the ambulance pelted? Odious football club. Let's not forget.
Dave Abrahams
240 Posted 19/10/2020 at 10:02:20
Hands up, I thought Klopp was making a meal out of Van Dijk's injury, I didn't think it would turn out to be that bad, so I'm genuinely sorry that Van Dijk will be out of the game for so long. I've no time for Liverpool but wouldn't wish these sort of injuries on my worst enemy.

The game carries on, so the replacement for Richarlison while he is out, is very simple to me: to replace his energy and work rate, you pick someone with the same aggression, Nkounkou should fit the bill, playing up and down the field with Digne. and he might just score one goal in those three games to equal Richarlison's goal tally in the league this season.

Christine Foster
242 Posted 19/10/2020 at 10:48:30
There is a difference between an incompetent tackle and a malicious one. Both can be dangerous to an opposing player but the difference is intent.
I watched a youtube compilation of Dick Van Dyke intentionally taking players out, its not even subtle, its malicious, its with intent. Not a dirty player but one who does not play by the rules at all. The clattering of JR twice in as many minutes showed intent. Intent to injure, to put him out of the game.
Pickford was all passion and no composure, result? Ill judged, badly timed desperate throwing of himself at the ball (not the man) The man got in the way. No malicious intent.
As for that utter piece of work Sourness, him along with Roy Keane were the most offensive players I have ever seen. I don't like Carragher much but he was right to pick the chair legs from under him.
My fear though is that Everton, once again, are seen as a means for the EFL/FA to show its muscle, an easy touch (Niasse?) but dare they do it to the league leaders? Naw they haven't got the wotsits..
Sukhdev Sohal
243 Posted 19/10/2020 at 10:59:26
Why did my comment get deleted?
Derek Moore
244 Posted 19/10/2020 at 11:05:47
Was about to say the same Sukhdev. Has Pickford taken over editorial control of ToffeeWeb or something?
Tony Shelby
245 Posted 19/10/2020 at 11:17:25
I think this is a good day to remember Geoff Nulty and the Jimmy Case tackle that broke his leg and ended his career.
Daniel A Johnson
246 Posted 19/10/2020 at 11:17:44
Correct Craig it was pelted with bricks and Liverpool fans deliberately kept slow walking in front for over 20min blocking it's progress out of the stadium
Tony Everan
247 Posted 19/10/2020 at 11:18:32
Dave 240, I’m definitely on board with Nkounkou playing in front of Digne. There is a bit of the sorcerers apprentice going on with them two. Nkounkou has played further forward for previous clubs, his crosses in to Dominic will cause all sorts of problems. Anthony Gordon will be pushing for it too, they may share duties.
Ernie Baywood
248 Posted 19/10/2020 at 11:32:06
For the benefit of Klippety, VAR didn't review an onside decision and change it to off. It reviewed play and found Mane was offside. Now you want a review? Of the review? I'm confident it will find that Mane was offside. Again. Unless something has changed history.

Pickford may get a retrospective ban for recklessness. But that's a slippery slope once we decide that keepers aren't allowed to jump.

All in all, maybe the PL can just tell them where to go.

Jamal Paktongko
249 Posted 19/10/2020 at 11:48:43
Dear Matt #227

I beg to differ.

Peter sabotage us down to our drawers.

If it wasn't for David Moyes impressive managerial skills, we would be down in thw basement of English football by now instead of running with the big dogs.

His evil plans failed and somehow out of the miracle of God we were saved.

Steve Ferns
250 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:08:24
Christine, it’s all about the intent.

Jordan Pickford could not be sent off. All the brainless pundits who clearly don’t know the rules missed the whole point of the VAR check. VAR had to focus on the offside. The offside was key.

If it was not offside and was therefore onside, then Jordan walks. It’s a red. No question.

If it was offside, and it clearly was, then he cannot be sent off unless he intentionally endangered Van Dijk.

The same pundits who said he should be sent off, said he should be sent off for a rash challenge or being reckless. Rash and reckless both mean there’s no intent, it’s not deliberate. Therefore, he cannot be sent off.

The offside was crucial and there was clearly no deliberate intent to injure Van Dijk. It could not be red. But Jordan was a very lucky man and needs to learn a lesson fast, as he showcased his best (3/4 great saves) and his worst (the rash challenge, the poor effort with the disallowed goal and a couple of flaps). I think he’s trying too hard now and needs to calm down. A few clean sheets in quiet games would be the tonic, but this is a crazy season.

John McFarlane Snr
251 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:17:11
Hi Dave [240] & Christine [241] although we have BT I listened to the game in the spare bedroom via Radio Merseyside, while my 'Young Lady' watched it in the living room. I have however seen the challenge, I echo your sentiment Dave regarding the Van Dyke injury, and find it difficult to understand how any football lover can take pleasure from such an injury.

Christine, I believe that you are correct in your appraisal of the incident, and I know that I am leaving myself open to the 'Snowflake' remarks, when I say that I observe more malice directed toward Pickford himself, from some on this site. Without wishing to give the impression of blowing my own trumpet, I regard myself as being a fair minded person.

Daniel A Johnson
252 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:19:15
The whining continues today.

It's open season on Pickford and EFC just read the papers.

In the last Derby the red scum were singing "Coleman Coleman how's your leg,"

So I suggest we rehearse our own rendition of YNWA "You'll never walk again"

Derek Moore
253 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:21:15
Our keeper is clearly going through a rough patch and riding his luck. Funnily enough Jordan is quite a lucky player, more often than not his regular fuck ups lead to no real harm for himself or team.
My great uncle used to reckon it was better to be lucky than to be good. Best of all to be both though, of course.
For what it's worth, Jordan is just going to have to tough it out. The manager isn't going to bench him, and nor should he. The club has hedged it's bets a little with the arrival of Olsen, but realistically Jordan has received as much or more backing from the club than he's entitled to.
I think the criticism surrounding his continued tenure in the national team is a big part of it and the sooner Southgate puts him out of his misery the better as far as I'm concerned.
The only way to silence the critics is to play better. It's up to Pickford what happens from here.
Tom Bowers
254 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:26:58
RS, Klopp and all RS fans are pissed because they thought they had ( not for the first time) stolen the points at the death.
Who could forget that horrible Origi winner in the sixth minute of overtime).
Well RS get over yourselves, you don't always get what you may think you deserve in football.
The Pickford incident was unfortunate, a coming together in a crucial moment. The only sure thing was Richies red card.

C.O.Y. B. top of the league still. Who would have thunk it.

Brent Stephens
255 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:29:33
"The whining continues today."

Indeed it does.

"So I suggest we rehearse our own rendition of YNWA 'You'll never walk again'."

That's not a good look.

Brent Stephens
256 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:33:25
Dave #240, Steve #250. My sentiments as well.
Dale Rose
257 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:46:20
Regarding the Pickford incident. These athletes move far quicker than us mere mortals. They also react much quicker. This was one of those things no malicious intent involved. The offside was offside end of story.

I've always found the RS to be a disrespectful club to other teams. This weekend they put their strongest side out for once. We dealt with it. Great test of character for us and the usual display of petulance from them.

So fuck them.

Kevin Molloy
258 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:47:08
the Paul Joyce match report in the Times is something to behold. Apparently after Klopp has gotten over the 'torment' of the latest derby, he will find the first six minutes which contained VVD the hardest to bear. why? cos that was when he was showing Everton who was the boss, with key fouls against their key players. We are asked to imagine Jurgen filling up with sheer nostalgia and thoughts of what might have been as VVD nearly cuts James in half, and then DCL a minute later. This is all said with the straightest of straight faces. You would think somebody died, such is the tone. The whole match report is dedicated to one theme, the importance of VVD, and how ever will they cope without him.
This is supposed to be the guy with our take on things. He's flashed just a little red ankle on this one.
Chris Williams
259 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:47:31
BBC: no retrospective action
Bill Watson
260 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:51:13
Can't wait for the redshite meltdown! The gift that keeps on giving.

Just lovin' it.

Brent Stephens
261 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:51:32
BBC:
Everton goalkeeper Jordan Pickford will not face retrospective action over his challenge on Virgil van Dijk in Saturday's Merseyside derby.

The FA determined the incident was seen at the time having consulted with the match officials, including VAR.

The Liverpool defender suffered cruciate ligament damage when he was caught by Pickford in the first half.

The injury is likely to keep him out for at least six months and potentially the rest of the season.

The FA does have the power to intervene even if a decision is seen, but this is only used in exceptionally rare circumstances.

Evidently, these circumstances do not apply on this occasion.

Steve Ferns
262 Posted 19/10/2020 at 12:55:01
Brent, as I posted at #250, they couldn't ban him. Don't listen to the pundits, they are clueless about the rules of the game. There was good reason why Coote spent to long at looking at the offside.
Tony Abrahams
263 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:00:37
That was a top post at 250 Steve, explaining everything in plain English and above all making a case to get rid of at least half the media, who are getting paid a fortune, to try and restructure the game, but won’t dare go out on the coaching pitch, because they might just get found out.
Brent Stephens
264 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:00:55
Yes, Steve. All of my post #261 was from the BBC.
Ian Flanagan
265 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:07:27
Van Diik was out of position for his first challenge on Rodriguez, he had deliberately made that challenge to get to him. If Van Dijk had stayed on the pitch at some point during that game he would have taken out Rodriguez and we would have lost him to injury. It worked to our favour that Van Dijk went off as they would have no sympathy for us if James had gone off.
Mike Hughes
266 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:13:42
Very pleased that Pickford has escaped punishment. It was obvious to me that there was no intent to injure. Dickhead pundits like Chris Sutton should hang their heads in shame. As for Souness... Hopefully this will be the catalyst for Jordan to get his head right.

Regarding the RS fans, let them whinge and whine as much as they like. They've been doing it for decades and so long as they don't turn to their main hobby of throwing missiles / pushing walls down then we can simply nod and smile back at them.

For once, we can even sympathise because it makes no difference at all. It was an accident, it was offside and we're top of the league.

So, Elaine in Peterborough, tough titties, love.

ps: As suggested on this thread, it would be nice to get a short video clip of Van Dijk's early fouls before his injury.

Daniel A Johnson
267 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:24:43
It's the goalkeepers job to rush in fast and close down the player before they take the shot and exploit the angles.

Pickford misjudged it big time. No doubt.

It was a 50:50 challenge that went wrong.

Arguably Richarlison's was worse.

Let's be honest here, how many dodgy tackles have us Evertonians watched and endured from those shisters over the years that have gone unpunished?

A quick Google of Van Dijk's fouls shows how he's also no angel – far from it.

Rob Halligan
268 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:28:43
Mike, Elaine in Peterborough will be almost suicidal at this news. I feel for her, I really do!!! 😁😁😁😁
Brian Williams
269 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:36:32
An rs fan on the Echo website wants the club to make an appeal to Uefa.

Comedy gold!

Will Mabon
270 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:37:24
Rob, I can tell... don't let the guilt get to you, Pal, not healthy. Maybe talk it out with a friend etc.

Brian Williams
271 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:39:22
The ironic thing here is that, if their "goal" had been incorrectly allowed, they'd be crowing over a victory and the injury to their main man would be a mere side issue.
Rob Halligan
272 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:42:03
Will, maybe we should start a petition "The Save Elaine from Peterborough from being suicidal". The least we can do!
Michael Lynch
273 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:45:38
The RS will be organising a petition and a march to the Town Hall, where they will let off some fireworks and set fire to Joe Anderson's massive undercrackers.

Love watching their fat heads explode as a few things go against them for a change. Welcome to our world, you horrible cheating arsonists.

Steve Ferns
274 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:48:51
Michael, you did not envisage the threats made to Jordan Pickford's wife and child, directed at her on social media. Vile and disgusting, but flying under the radar for some reason. It would be front page news if it was the other way round.

I hope Pickford can shield his young family from this intense media spotlight, and I worry that he lacks the skills to cope properly, going off how erratic his form has been under intense criticism.

Ray Robinson
275 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:49:57
Steve 250, whilst I have no sympathy for the RS, I totally disagree with your statement 'Rash and reckless both mean there’s no intent, it’s not deliberate. Therefore, he cannot be sent off.' Several players have been sent off for fouls that were reckless even though there was no obvious intent.
Will Mabon
276 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:52:28
I'm gonna keep listening for her return on Five live, Rob...
Mike Hughes
277 Posted 19/10/2020 at 13:53:50
Rob,
I didn’t sleep a wink last night. I was haunted by the memory of poor Elaine’s sobbing.
She might think us Blues are all violent yobs (unlike those loveable, friendly, butter-wouldn’t-melt kopites) but some of us have a sensitive side.
I’m not one of them and I hope the stupid cow doesn’t get on air again. She can bake right off as far as I am concerned.
Steve Ferns
278 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:03:19
Ray, because it is offside, there are only two grounds for him to be sent off under:

1. SERIOUS FOUL PLAY

a) A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.

b) Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

VIOLENT CONDUCT

a) Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.

b) In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.


Clearly violence conduct does not apply. So it's serious foul play or nothing. It's part b that the RS would argue. But this needs intent on Pickford's part. It was not deliberate. Therefore, not serious foul play.

As I said, if it was ONSIDE, then it's a different story and he's off.

Brian Williams
279 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:03:56
The rs stupidity grows and grows. One of them has openly threatened Jordan Pickford on social media.
Think it was on Twitter.
I just hope the full weight of the law comes down on to bear on him.
Bill Watson
280 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:09:48
I have absolutely no doubt that their game plan involved taking James out. If van Dijk had been booked for his fouls then someone else would have stepped in until the job was done.
'Spurs did a similar shared job on Richarlison.

Van Dijk's fouls on James and D C-L were deliberate so I have no sympathy for him, whatsoever. The RS teleclappers would have been cheering to the rooftops if he'd have succeeded in knobbling James. At least Pickfords challenge was rash and ill timed rather than with the intention of causing injury.

Ray Robinson
281 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:11:23
Jeeesh Steve, I hate to be arguing that Pickford could have got the red card, but if his tackle was not serious foul play, intent or otherwise, then I don't know what is! Even in your own definitions, where is 'intent' mentioned? It isn't - that's just your interpretation.

The fact that it was offside means only that a penalty couldn't be given. Anyway

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

282 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:13:51
Brian @ 279. Here is the Tweet threat from a lad calling himself sean_astley86.

Red Fan Threatens to Get Even With JP For His 'Mate' Virgil

Scroll down about half way to read it.

What a beaut! He's even mocked by his own supporters.

Neil Cremin
283 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:20:27
In the game we saw the best and worst of Jordan which is why he ends up being the topic of so much discussion. I have long questioned Jordans reputation as a top class goalkeeper and Saturday changed nothing.
In his defence, his speed at coming off his line is what has made him a very good shot stopper which when it works he is a hero but when he is over enthusiastic he looks like a clown. I will not categorise Saturdays tackle on VVD as either. It is just Jordan.
I would however once again raise his feeble attempt at stopping Henderson’s shot.
If calls had gone against us on Saturday, Jordan would be vilified as it is we (& he) got lucky and a draw so let sleeping dogs lie particularly with no restrospective actions.
We still have a lot of work to do to be realistically be competing for top 4/6 positions.
Mick Davies
284 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:21:44
Daniel Johnson well done, you win the Keyboard Warrior of the week award. I guarantee you wouldn't speak to me like that face to face you beaut. As for that clown in goal; yes I would like him banned A) he's a liability and has never been dropped before and B) it would end all the shit that's being thrown at our hitherto dignified club. I wonder how many Everton players you've slagged off in the past?
Daniel A Johnson
285 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:29:57
Feel free to slag any player you want off Mick.

But to request any of our players receive a retrospective ban for an ill-timed challenge on one of them?

Sorry mate no no no. never.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

286 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:31:21
Brian Williams has already posted this on another thread, but it's worth repeating methinks: a different angle of the coming together of the two players:

Doesn't Look THAT Bad, Does It?

Hands up all those who have seen this image in all the damning media reports, rather than an alternative showing Jordan in the worst possible light?

The speed of a camera shutter and the angle a photo is taken from can change the discussion, or at least offer greater balance to the debate.

Mainstream media is not doing that.

Tony Everan
287 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:36:44
Brian 271, The non stop media hyperbole over this is fuelling this threat of violence and hatred.

They need to pack it in, there is no way on gods earth there would be such a tsunami of media vitriol if it was one of our players taken out by a rash challenge.

If they keep up this 24/7 condemnation the hatred and threat of violence is going to escalate into someone getting hurt.

The regulator or whoever it is needs to tell them to call time on it.

Brian Williams
288 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:40:54
Jay thanks for highlighting and improving on my reporting mate!
Daniel A Johnson
289 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:43:46
I really hope Pickford is being careful. Look at when Barkley got sucker punched at a bar.

Pickford is known for mixing with his old school pals I just hope he watches his back when out and the club are preparing some extra security for him.

He's already had threats against him and his family.

Will Mabon
290 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:47:08
I agree with that, Tony. The right attitude rarely prevails at the control level anymore alas. Such drama is too convenient a distraction. If it were you or I, it would be called incitement.
Patrick McFarlane
291 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:49:09
Jay #286
The problem with the media is that they pander to their largest audience and unfortunately for Jordan he plays for a club that doesn't have the same potential reach as other clubs do.

I wish I had the inside story of why the media are so against Jordan, because it can't be purely down to his abilities or lack of them, there seems to have been an agenda in place against him, almost from the moment he joined Everton.

We all understand that the mainstream media will defend the clubs that generate the greatest number of viewers, listeners, readers, and we expect them to continue to give those clubs a positive narrative wherever and whenever it is possible, even if they have to twist the facts in order for them to do so, but I personally find it impossible to understand the 'witch-hunt' against Jordan even in some cases from our own supporters.

If there is somebody at the club who is better than Jordan, Carlo will choose him, there isn't, so Jordan is Everton's number one until we buy somebody better, from that perspective Jordan deserves our support for the good of the team and the club.

I'm hoping and I'm sure that Carlo will use this unseemly episode to create a siege mentality within his squad, and hopefully, the team including Jordan will show the media that we have a team on the rise and one that is ready to compete.


Jamie Crowley
292 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:50:03
Steve Ferns at 278 -

Thank you for that post.

There's a lot of chatter about Pickford. It's all overblown for me. The kid did exactly what a keeper should do, in theory. He came out strong to protect his goal. What occurred afterwards was unfortunate, but an accident. There was zero intent. Happy shout-outs that VVD is injured I'm not a fan of. But that veers into a different conversation that I'm not going to bother with.

What I'm seriously reconsidering, and I never, ever thought I'd do this, is VAR in the EPL. Its application is being butchered on a weekly basis, and it's sucking the spontaneous celebrations full of emotion out of the game.

CHEER! Wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait. WTF? Anyone home? DECISION - cue pissed or happy.

It's getting to be a serious buzz kill.

And the decisions are just getting more and more surreal as time marches on.

That Hendo goal yesterday was a goal. I do not know how anyone can look at that play and say it was offside. Frankly, I don't know how anyone can look at that REPLAY and say it was offside.

I was thrilled with the point. Why? Because that was daylight robbery. You can say on the whole a point is a fair result, but I'm sorry it wasn't. A perfectly good goal was disallowed and we benefited. I'll take it, but it's daylight robbery and we all should be thanking the soccer gods for our fortune. Fortune that is long, long overdue against those folks, and that's the only way I can justify it.

And now, a good Catholic confession. All the VAR haters on TW I would, prior to yesterday, kind of blow off their anti-VAR arguements. Most of them, from my reading and knowing a thing or two about those posters, are older. I would think to myself, after reading about how VAR is ruining the game, it's just the stereotypical old man complaining about how things are changing. Age and stubbornness are the real enemy, I'd tell myself, they just can't cope with change. This is an age problem, not problem with VAR.

I'm washing that dirty thought from my mind. It's not healthy and not accurate.

Listen to your elders, they know a thing or two. And I'm beginning to think VAR should be ousted from English soccer. After this weekend I think the statement that it's "ruining the game" has a lot more credibility than it did Friday evening.

Fuck 'em, I'll take the point. But something has to change in footy and the overall picture with the application of VAR. It's sucking the life out of what makes soccer so, so beautiful.

When I was a kid I saw a clip of an English soccer game. I've no idea who was playing and it doesn't matter. Someone scored a goal, and the crowd went out-of-their-minds crazy. I mean absolutely nuts. I remember thinking it was one of the coolest things I'd ever seen, and I said to myself that someday I'd "follow" soccer. If you take that celebration and fan moment away and sterilize soccer, it's lost it's shine. It would be awful.

Something has to be done about VAR. I can say now after this weekend, it's ruining the game.

Be thankful for the point, but let's look at the bigger picture.

Robert Workman
293 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:50:13
Dermot (207) Hilarious!
Stan Schofield
294 Posted 19/10/2020 at 14:55:58
Patrick@291: You've hit a nail on the head. I recall the last world cup, when Pickford made those penalty saves against Columbia (and saved Jordan Henderson's embarrassment if the process), the TV 'pundits, tried their best not to give him any praise. It's very strange.
Mick Davies
295 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:11:21
Now let's have some honesty: If Liverpool's goalie had done that to Michael Keane and the same result i.e. no penalty, out for 8 months etc we'd be going ape. I can't support Pickford anymore, after Fleetwood, Brighton and yesterday, he's become more than a liability, he's an embarrassment, and if the officials had done their job properly, he could have caused the worst ever derby defeat in history
John Raftery
296 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:13:26
Jamie (292) You can have my vote on VAR. Something must be done. That something in my opinion is to consign it to the dustbin of the game’s history. Unfortunately there are still too many voices, possibly fewer than a year ago, arguing the solution is to improve its operation rather than scrap it. Eventually, I hope, the penny will drop with the authorities that in whatever guise it will continue to drain football of the joy and emotion which distinguishes it from other sports.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

297 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:19:12
Going completely off topic for a moment, all praise to Newcastle fans for this initiative:

Barcode Fans Pay-Per-View Protest Raises £20k For Food Banks

Well done them. Here's hoping this catches on with other clubs and supporters.

John Raftery
298 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:20:46
Mick (295) Pickford is a loose cannon. In many ways he reminds me of Gascoigne in 1991, out of control, liable one moment to produce a moment of brilliance and in the next do something completely stupid. Up to now this season his errors have not cost us but it can only be a matter of time before they do.
Stan Schofield
299 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:22:39
Mick@295: I think there's already been a lot of honesty about this incident on this and other threads. And that includes opinions about Pickford being or not being a liability for Everton.
Bill Watson
300 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:29:19
Mick #295

The officials DID do their job properly, according to the rules of the game.

Pickford's ability is a separate issue.

Darren Hind
301 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:40:18
If Jordan Pickford is to miss any games I want it to be because our manager is trying somebody else.
The howls of outrage emanating from the red propaganda machine can never be allowed to influence who does and who doesnt get punished

Hendersons face after the goal was disallowed was the funniest thing I've seen since the hysterical reaction from the main stand at Mordor, When Holgate shoved one of them over the wall.

Bill Gall
302 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:46:04
First off I do not like Liverpool as a team or as a club, I don't like these pundits going on about us never winning a derby game in 10yrs, as if we had lost every game, but most of all I don't like to see players getting seriously injured. Regardless about everyone and their dog saying what a vicious tackle Pickford made, should have got a red card, should be banned for as long as V V D is out, and other more vile suggestions it is refreshing to hear an ex Liverpool player saying that in no way did Pickford try to injure V.V.D.
It was stupid and reckless but if he would have stayed in his goal and V.V,D. had scored he would have been criticized from pillar to post for not coming out to block him.
The other major talking point the Mane offside, Mane was behind the Everton defense when the ball was in play walking back to get onside and looked onside when he passed the ball to Henderson but was probably still offside when the ball was first played towards him, the only views that seem to be shown are when he passed it back to Henderson, not his position when the ball was passed to him.
As I believe Pickford's intent was not to injure a player, unlike some of these outraged pundits and ex players who did tackle other players to injure them. The major problem with this outcome was, who and what his loss to Liverpool means, as if it had been another player who is not relied as much as V.V.D. to Liverpool's success, there would not have been as much outrage.
Sam Barrett
303 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:46:20
Do not succumb to the rs media/fans bitter, frenzied reaction to an injury that could’ve happened to any player on any team of any game this season. Give them plenty of abuse on social media or whatever platform you choose. To Me it is now irrelevant. The most relevant thing to me, at this moment in time, is that we are definitely under their skin. As someone on TW once posted, it’s Everton they fear most.
David Ellis
304 Posted 19/10/2020 at 15:53:29
Steve 278- I don’t see any reference to intent in the definition of Serious Foul Play you quoted
Hywel Owen
305 Posted 19/10/2020 at 16:08:36
The media's Liverpool bias is sickening to say the least. When a certain defender clatters two of our players in the opening minutes its called "asserting his authority" When the same player gets clattered a few minutes later its a penalty, sending off and threats on social media. A certain pundit who fouled his way to a football career should be the last one to talk.That on top of ganging up with their arch rivals in a typical across the Atlantic plot to control the world.
Jay Harris
306 Posted 19/10/2020 at 16:35:31
Bill
I have a slight disagrrement with you there.

If it had been any team (never mind players) other than Man U or the RS it wouldnt have been brought up repeatedly on every available channel and website.

I totally agree with you about the 10 year thing as if we had lost every game. It gets under my skin that they can slant the reporting like this. Hopefully we will put that right at the cauldron of hate.

As regards Mane I heard that VAR has a more complete picture of the offside and you are absolutely correct Mane was coming from an offside position which according to the rules is "Offside".

As always the media will present their picture and interpretation of events to suit.

John Boon
307 Posted 19/10/2020 at 17:35:42
Interesting to observe our loyal fans arguing with themselves. The Pickford incident is now over and done with. A goalie who of late is unsure of himself dives into a 50-50 tackle and accidently injures an opponent.

That same opponent had twice DELIBERATELY tried to injure our star player. With some refs he could easily have been carded twice would mean red and he wouldn't even have been on the field.

I also think Van D had serious knee problems before the tackle. From all appearances he appeared to have been hit in the shin area. I never wish ill on any player but he certainly isn't the only player to incur injury. Pickford himself could easily have been injured in what was a collision.

John Boon
308 Posted 19/10/2020 at 17:35:42
Interesting to observe our loyal fans arguing with themselves. The Pickford incident is now over and done with. A goalie who of late is unsure of himself dives into a 50-50 tackle and accidently injures an opponent.

That same opponent had twice DELIBERATELY tried to injure our star player. With some refs he could easily have been carded twice would mean red and he wouldn't even have been on the field.

I also think Van D had serious knee problems before the tackle. From all appearances he appeared to have been hit in the shin area. I never wish ill on any player but he certainly isn't the only player to incur injury. Pickford himself could easily have been injured in what was a collision.

Brian Wilkinson
309 Posted 19/10/2020 at 18:57:22
Following on from that John, why did the Liverpool physio team allow Virgil to walk off the pitch by himself, why was a stretcher not asked for.
Sukhdev Sohal
310 Posted 19/10/2020 at 19:22:41
Derek any comment that undermines the Lord Darren Hind will be removed, as he is clearly superior to all others. Is he a mod on this website?
Sukhdev Sohal
311 Posted 19/10/2020 at 19:24:02
Why have no-one of the fools on MOTD said that Mane was offside? He was offside by centimetres but it still is offside. Offside is like a switch, either offside or onside and Mane was offside.
Graham Mockford
312 Posted 19/10/2020 at 19:41:49
Mick 295

He could have caused the biggest ever defeat, but in fact he didn’t in the same way he hasn’t cost us a single point this year.

What do they say? If my aunty had bollocks she’d be my uncle.

Will Mabon
313 Posted 19/10/2020 at 19:45:58
Jay @ 297:

Good on them - but utter shame that this is necessary. "Developed" country, 2020, hungry people. On the back of years of allowing, and encouraging, the charity of people to increasingly take on the inherent job of the system, whilst carving off the increasing taxes taken. Obscene.

Kevin Molloy
314 Posted 19/10/2020 at 19:53:52
the Everton thread on rawk has to be read to be believed. it's like a million shrieking golums all with their precious stolen by villains at the same time.
Kevin Molloy
315 Posted 19/10/2020 at 19:58:32
and they are all shrieking the same thing
'i've defended Everton in the past. but no more. After that disgrace a line has been crossed. they've shown their true colours. I'll defend them no more. they are shite from top to bottom and a disgrace to the city'.
Charles Brewer
316 Posted 19/10/2020 at 20:07:18
Kevin, I'm sure there are 39 Italians who would disagree. But the can't
Mick Davies
317 Posted 19/10/2020 at 20:08:58
Graham, can't you see the impending crash? We were a whisker away from losing our keeper, therefore an outfield player, and bringing a derby debutant keeper on with 80+ mins to go, 1-0 down against the most prolific strikeforce in Europe. If you can just brush that off, knowing how erratic Pickford has been for over a year, and not expect him to cost us dearly, then you must be living under a toadstool. We have been lucky to be scoring lots of goals to compensate, but how long does that need to go on?

John McFarlane Snr
318 Posted 19/10/2020 at 20:11:07
Hi Jamie [292] it's possible that you have seen the light regarding VAR, I have been against it ever since its introduction, and the fact that we were saved from suffering a defeat by its intervention doesn't alter my opinion. I have stated on this site on more than one occasion, that of all the changes that have been introduced in the last few years, the best has been the application of the referees 'shaving cream' prior to free-kicks. I think I qualify for both the age and stubbornness categories being 82, and my decision to boycott live televised matches played in empty stadiums. To add to these faults? I'm afraid that I have to introduce a word that doesn't meet with much approval by some, and that word is principles.
Graham Mockford
319 Posted 19/10/2020 at 20:19:29
Mick

I’m not convinced about Pickford but some of the criticism borders on the hysterical.
I mean one fan on here even went as far as wanting one of our own players suspended.
What I did see actually happen on Saturday were two good saves and one exceptional one that certainly assisted in us getting a point rather than hypothetical assumptions on what could have happened.

Mick Davies
320 Posted 19/10/2020 at 20:43:58
Graham, me. I want him banned. For some inexplicable reason, no Everton manager or Southgate will drop him. The assault on Mina in a panicked frenzy against Brighton was farcical; it's almost as if he's just doing everything on speed while his brain is in arrears. If Mina had been crocked, with Holgate and Branthwaite out, we'd have been in the shit. A few weeks out with therapy MAY help him, but in his present state, of erratic and attention-deficient mania, he's not helping our cause. How many times did Mina, Keane and Davies bail him out that day?
Steve Pugh
321 Posted 19/10/2020 at 20:47:02
I find it interesting that, a week after Liverpool's failed power grab, ie the Big Picture thing, the EPL and referees turn against them.

Coinidence. I hope not.

Graham Mockford
322 Posted 19/10/2020 at 20:48:25
Mick

You not really tuned in to sarcasm I guess.

Good argument you make about the national team manager and one of the most successful club managers of all time not dropping him*

*sarcasm alert

Bill Fairfield
323 Posted 19/10/2020 at 20:52:09
The manager is not concerned about the goalkeeping position and that’s good enough for me.
Jerome Shields
324 Posted 19/10/2020 at 20:52:29
Graham#319

It's the media that stirring all this up.Glad that sense has prevailed and no retrospect action is to be taken.Why would it be no foul was committed and nothing was intentional By Pickford?

By the way what is wrong with having a Mad Goalkeeper when Everton are top of the League.It might be a good thing to have such a Goalkeeper.

Neil Cremin
325 Posted 19/10/2020 at 21:04:52
Mike at 317,

I can't agree that Pickford has been erratic for over a year. I think Pickford has always been erratic.

Do you not remember he clattered into Williams in his first season with us. He has always been erratic in my opinion, but as a matter of fact, outside the howler at the end when he let in Henderson's shot, he had a good game.

The clash with Van Dijk was typical of the way Jordan plays, just throws his body in the way. Unfortunately, this time it was extremely rash and clumsy.

Christine Foster
326 Posted 19/10/2020 at 21:15:06
Sitting in my own little world of make-believe for the past (too many) years, I realise that the footballing city that once made the world look up and admire in the '80s has gone, and with it my respect for the other half. "Merseyside" used to be the chant... but no more.

They have left us behind in the rush to emulate the worst supporters outside of, well, anywhere. The level of hysteria, abuse, vindictiveness and threats to family are unprecedented, or maybe I have chosen not to believe how bad it was getting, but their hatred and entitlement appears to know no bounds.

As a city and as a club, we have stood with them in times of injustice, ashamed of nothing, as long as their vindictive righteousness prevails. It's not just supporters, its the club too, we have seen power grabs, etc... it's like Snowy once said to a dole officer in Boys from the Black Stuff, "I wouldn't be you" and while we have our own fringe, theirs is a mainstream.

The city and the clubs generally always worked together, not united, but with respect. There is no respect now, the stadium issue highlights it: fear, abuse, that we are getting one over them, a world class stadium, iconic on the very banks of the Mersey, The Liver building as our home, the liver birds lit up in blue... they even tried to burn it down, incredible.

I wish it were just the odd fruit cake in their midst, but it's not. The mainstream media fan the flames of entitlement whilst sanity and honesty go out the windows.

VAR is not the villain, introduced to eliminate poor on-field decision-making, it's only introduced technology that is interpreted by an off-field referee with another flawed level of subjectiveness. It's made the game poorer, not better. Bad decisions are still being made, on or off the field. Entitlement is now the name of the game.

Bill Gall
327 Posted 19/10/2020 at 21:15:18
I think describing a goalkeeper mad is not far off the mark. As kids playing in the street, we had a couple of kids who wanted to be a goalkeeper. One unfortunately had an illness that stopped him playing, but the other one had a pretty successful career playing in goal.

Both of them used to dive on the concrete road and a couple of times hurt themselves on the bricks we used as goalposts. But carried on, and we always thought they were not right in the head to do it.

Alan McGuffog
328 Posted 19/10/2020 at 21:18:06
Christine. Absolutely superb piece of writing. Echoes what so many of us feel and think.
Ernie Baywood
329 Posted 19/10/2020 at 21:33:24
But what did VAR get wrong?
Mick Davies
330 Posted 19/10/2020 at 21:50:19
Christine, it's taken you this long to realise what a bunch of Neanderthal gobshites are associated with THAT lot from Hades? Didn't you notice the Steaua Bucharest flag on the Kop? That finished them scumbags for me as human beings, after what they did at Heysel – subhumans.
Mike Hughes
331 Posted 19/10/2020 at 21:52:10
In a quiet moment, I just had a look at “RAWK” - the RS fans’ website.

They have a live text commentary of the Merseyside derby.

12.33.09
“Virgil has just left his mark on Rodriguez 😄”

12.34.33 is the time logged for the Pickford challenge.

That wiped the sneers off their faces, the sight of Billy Big Bollocks limping off and out for 6 months.

Say what you like about not wanting any players getting injured.

Or call it karma.

(Now to disinfect my phone).


Jerome Shields
332 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:05:13
Bill #327,

A lot of outfield players describe goalkeepers as being mad. Pickford got to be England No 1 and Everton No 1 being as he is. Today, I was talking to two neutral football watchers and they both described Pickford as not being quite right in the head.

On balance, Pickford will save a lot of goals that most goalkeepers would never save, more than he will make howlers. His record of previous seasons at Everton is based on one of the worse defenses in the Premier League and a walk through midfield.

The defence is a hell of a lot better as is the midfield and if Pickford can keep making those impossible type saves, more than making howlers, he will be valuable to Everton in any League challenge. I have no doubt that he will be working to minimise the howlers and, because of the way he is, he will pull off some incredible saves.

I think Everton should embrace his madness, because that what makes him what he is. Because it is more acceptable to save the standard attacking play, and not save the greater attacking play, but to actually achieve something it takes more of the opposite of this. Statistically the outcome will be more successful.

This is what Pickford is capable off and it could just make the difference the season as Everton challenge in the League. If to be a goalkeeper is to be mad, it is better to have the madest goalkeeper there is and the extraordinary ability that goes with it.

My advice is to ignore the media stereotyping, which has reached its height and is so wrong on Pickford's challenge. Of course there will he analysis of Pickford's weaknesses but, if Everton continue to challenge, it is irrelevant.


Steve Guy
333 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:10:58
Just wondering what sub sub menu the Beeb & Sky will report that RS supporters being chased down for racial and hate crimes on social media by Merseyside Police. I've seen a small bit and it's horrific. I imagine it won't be their supporters of course.
Martin Mason
335 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:13:48
Spot on, Jerome.
Joe McMahon
336 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:16:56
Steve, local BBC reports on Twitter, but not national news. As one guy said on Twitter, it must be Chelsea fans.
Max Fine
337 Posted 18/10/2020 at 22:20:21
I'm with you regarding Van Dijk, Charles, yet the (red) forces within the UK media are yet again attempting to remove the context of the challenge to fit their rhetoric. Pickford goes into the challenge with the game being played at an insanely high-tempo, and having witnessed Van Dijk make two heavy, unpunished challenges himself (both omitted from the BBC "highlights", I note).

So, when he makes the block, he does so with more gusto than required and then momentum carries him through, even after the whistle blows. The players' reaction at the time is a good indicator of how they viewed it, and there wasn't really much of one at all. That's how Oliver likely saw it in real-time too, because he didn't dish out a red for violent conduct.

Then, because the move was offside anyway, it is judged to be out of play and therefore can't be a foul. That's fortunate for us because, at any other time, it's at least a yellow card or very likely serious foul play and a red. I'm not condoning the challenge btw, that's not the point I'm trying to make, but there are far worse challenges made week-in & week-out, including Richarlison's challenge later in the same match, for which he was rightly punished with a straight red, but of which there is barely a mention.

If you really want to see a "disgusting" challenge, I might point you to the blantant two-footed assault on Naismith by the RS demi-god Gerrard – at least Pickford attempts to play the ball! I wait with bated breath to see if the FA makes history again for Liverpool by overturning a referee's decision for the very first time ever (we were, after all, the first club to have a player receive a retrospective ban for diving).

At the final whistle on Saturday, I'll admit to being a little disappointed at our performance. I felt that the School of Science pass-and-move philosophy so present in our opening performances was shown only in only small glimpses vs Liverpool. We also appeared a little leggy and less self-assured, possibly because of the physical demands of international duty, or maybe because the burden of expectation is already weighing them down. Who knows?

However, having had the last couple of days to mull it over, I think I may have paid Ancelloti's men a disservice. Liverpool played out of themselves yesterday; spurred on no doubt by a hurtful defeat against Aston Villa and maybe some extra helpings of Klopp's "special" performance-enhancing cocktails.

Liverpool players drink Klopp's secret "isotonic potion" after every match.

Whatever it was, they came absolutely flying out of the stocks and gave, according to Klopp himself, their finest ever away performance. And yet, albeit by quite literally a hair's breadth, they didn't manage to beat us. Playing their best team's best football, we held them to a point. That we relied on a bit of fortune might also be the sign of something special happening; in the 25 years of supporting Everton, it's the one thing I've never until now known us to possess.

Of course, the offside rule, by its definition, has to be drawn somewhere, and in a game the FA are trying to make less subjective and more objective, that line, fortunately for us, showed that Liverpool was offside.

And whilst it wasn't the prettiest display we've seen from the Blues this season, what it did demonstrate is that we can grind out a point against top opposition when 1) we're not at our best; 2) we lost a key player to injury early on when Coleman limped off, and 3) we fought back after twice going behind. That said, with news that Van Dijk is now out for the season, the pressure is really set to intensify and next week at Southampton will be a real test of our players' metal.

If the lynch mobs can spare a pitchfork, they should perhaps head to Anfield to investigate the apparent poor air quality there. After all, there can't be any other explanation for a massive 22 players out of their squad of 35 all requiring treatment for asthma, can there? That's 63% of their squad compared to a national average of 12%, or over five times higher than the UK average, all requiring medication to improve their lung capacity:

Why Liverpool won’t win the Premier League this season

Neil Cremin
338 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:20:57
Jerome,

You can't be serious.

Neil Cremin
339 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:22:20
Not on the challenge, but on Pickford as a goalkeeper.
Mike Connolly
340 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:27:07
Rob, imagine getting Peterborough in the FA Cup – it would probably send Elaine over the edge. According to her, we are the most dirtiest of derby teams. You wouldn't think she watched Liverpool for 50 years. Think these names may ring a bell with her: Case, Souness, Carragher, Gerard, Smith and Kuyt?
Jerome Shields
341 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:33:24
Another conclusion is that a rule that is advantageous to Everton will be changed and once a rule is disadvantageous, it will be changed so it is not disadvantageous to anyone else.

1. When Niasse was done for retrospect diving, no-one was charged with it after that because the rule was changed. All divers at big Club took a collective sigh of relieve.

2. The penalty resulting from imo diverted handball in Everton's last game resulted in a rule change regarding hand-ball in the box.

3. There is now a concerted campaign to change the offside rule, because Liverpool had a goal disallowed because of offside under the present rules. I remember the time when to be level with a defender was offside. What do they want? An offside rule that allows a forward to be onside with a toe level with a defender?

Why do they not be honest and form a committee to disadvantage Everton by changeing the rules.

Tom Bowers
342 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:34:49
VAR is not infallible but sometimes the overseer who watches it in slo-mo from different angles has to make a judgement call one way or another and will get lambasted by teams and fans, even pundits with the TV companies, if they disagree. If the decision affects the result, then it becomes big news.

Clubs have to realize that they sometimes benefit from VAR decisions over a season and RS have had their share. A different ''overseer'' could easily have said it wasn't offside but this one wasn't and so it's over and done with.

Regarding the Van Dijk injury, I wouldn't wish it upon any athlete but RS will still be a force and besides they leaked in 3 against Leeds and 7 against Villa so the defence with Van Dijk was cracking up anyway.

Martin Mason
343 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:37:06
Neil @338, then show where he is wrong.
Rob Halligan
344 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:37:51
Mike, did you hear poor Elaine last night? Her blubbering was hysterical. She was like a howling banshee, a real drama queen!
Mike Connolly
345 Posted 19/10/2020 at 22:45:15
Rob, She had me in tears with laughter. I've got to tune into 5 live every time when they get beat.
Jerome Shields
346 Posted 19/10/2020 at 23:47:10
Neil #339,

I am very serious. Pickford's howlers can only result in a direct goal due to 5% of his play, most of the other howlers will result in breaking ball and possible indirect goals.

It is apparent that Everton defenders are coached to be aware and be first to this breaking ball in dangerous areas. Davies, Digne and Godfrey were first to the ball in dangerous areas in the last three games respectively.

Pickford does not have to be perfect. What he has to do is save a higher percentage of difficult saves. Some of these saves will result in breaking ball, which the defence is being coached to deal with anyway.

Because of the traditional deep defensive nature of Italian Football, this awareness of the need of defending players to be individually prepared for the breaking ball in dangerous areas is bread-and-butter coaching to Ancelotti.

I don't think Ancelotti is unduly worried by Pickford's erratic performances. He knows that he has the ability to save a higher percentage of difficult shots and an aware or well-coached defensive play can reduce the amount of goals from breaking balls.

Ancelotti often will not blame Pickford, but will say that the play around him could have been better. Have you not noticed this?This is not making excuses for Pickford, but Ancelotti identifying where the weakness actually are as far as the team's performance.

Neil Cremin
347 Posted 19/10/2020 at 23:58:56
Martin,

Pickford is an erratic unreliable keeper. Yes, he can make great saves but so does any Premier League keeper. I have said for fours years, Pickford does not command his box for high balls, He is erratic in his judgements, parries the ball back into play and danger, rather than holding the ball. He loses concentration, and too often kicks the ball out of play.

That being said, he is a very a good shot-stopper because he comes off his line fast to smother the potential shot. This was what he tried to do on Saturday, got the timing wrong. It happens.

As a matter of fact, I thought he had his best game in a while except for the howler for Henderson's shot. Either way, he will remain controversial because he is so unpredictable, a quality which should not be present in any top-class keeper.

Neil Cremin
348 Posted 19/10/2020 at 00:02:52
Martin,

Just saw your reply. I would be very disappointed with Carlo if he criticised Jordan in public. Good managers just don't do that, so that is no barometer of what Carlo thinks.

Derek Thomas
349 Posted 20/10/2020 at 01:39:55
Writing somewhere else about the rs having covid players and getting the derby postponed, totally tongue-in-cheek, I stated that if they had to postpone, they would not forfit, like Leyton Orient, or play a weak team but would be given a special 'dispensation'...a nd we would be docked 3 points... I was nearly right.

I'm sure if there was a better keeper around, Brands would have got him. It's better to have a really good 10 men in front of an average keeper, than vice-versa.

I think slowly, very slowly, the rest of the football world is cottoning on to what the Red Shite team and supporters really are.

Red Shite: you always get exactly what it says on the tin.

Ernie Baywood
350 Posted 20/10/2020 at 09:48:28
We can criticise Pickford, but has he cost us any kind of result this season? Has he gained us results?

I'd argue his saves against Spurs and Liverpool gained us points. The one from Matip in particular was just a bit exceptional. I wouldn't back many to keep that out.

It feels like if we'd drawn against Spurs and lost against Liverpool but without the rollercoaster then people would be happier with the GK situation. And I kind of get that. It may well be that the noise around Pickford (and beyond the witch hunt, he creates a lot of that noise himself) becomes such a distraction that we have to do something about it for the benefit of the team, regardless of whether the actual goalkeeping contribution would suffer.

Craig Walker
351 Posted 20/10/2020 at 12:22:39
I don't approve of what Pickford did. I hate them lot and all they stand for and I'm not a hateful person. I want to see us stuff them playing football, like Villa did and that was the disappointing thing was that a lot of our players had off-days. It felt like a victory knowing how well they played and how badly we were, on the whole.

I know we've been on the receiving end of many bad challenges down the years but I think we should rise above it. Wanting their players injured isn't something that we should revel in. If their keeper did that to Keane, say, then we'd be rightly outraged. Fans taking pleasure in VVD's injury doesn't sit well with me. Let them sing their songs to Seamus about his leg-break, we should condone Pickford and rise above them.

As others have said, there is a definite bias though in portraying us as the nasty ones. The Robertson foul was even re-shown on the highlights, neither were VVD's first two fouls. There was an incident at Anfield last year where VVD took out DCL in what looked like a penalty. To this day, I haven't seen a replay of that challenge. Robertson elbowing Davies into the ground etc. It suits the narrative of portraying the RS as this flag-waving, YNWA-singing band of supporters watching their angelic players playing everyone off the park. Let's stop their arrogance by beating them for a change.

I think Pickford is a loose-cannon who will cost us points. The Anfield derby was the final straw for me. I still have nightmares about that blunder. His histrionics when we were 2-0 up away at Newcastle and he was taunting their fans shows his mindset. I'd like a keeper who just gets on with it and keeps his focus. One that organises and commands his area and stops palming it back across goal. I said at the start of the season that I thought Pickford and Mina were the weak links and I still think that is the case.

Neil Cremin
352 Posted 20/10/2020 at 12:45:25
Well said Craig.
I don't rate Pickford, never have but will not see him as a scapegoat for the media. What he did on Saturday is typical of the way comes out to block shots, when he gets it right its a brilliant save just this time he got it wrong. But that being said, he has at least one howler in him in every game not withstanding his inability to catch the ball or keep it in play in kick outs.
Ray Jacques
353 Posted 20/10/2020 at 12:51:40
I have watched the collision a number of times and I honestly think Pickford was clumsy and had a genuine intent to play the ball and clear his lines. I don't see any intent to injure another player, and I believe that the tackle by Richarliason is worst.

If Van Diijk doesnt suffer a serious injury then it doesnt become an issue. How does Pickford know that the injury was going to happen?

It was unfortunate that when contact is made Van Diijks leg is totally straight and stretched and thus a hard contact will cause an unnatural movement as there is no give in the knee joint.

We know Pickford is irrational and hyper, and this is a result of that, not a malicious intent to injure another player

Ray Jacques
354 Posted 20/10/2020 at 12:51:40
I have watched the collision a number of times and I honestly think Pickford was clumsy and had a genuine intent to play the ball and clear his lines. I don't see any intent to injure another player, and I believe that the tackle by Richarliason is worst.

If Van Diijk doesnt suffer a serious injury then it doesnt become an issue. How does Pickford know that the injury was going to happen?

It was unfortunate that when contact is made Van Diijks leg is totally straight and stretched and thus a hard contact will cause an unnatural movement as there is no give in the knee joint.

We know Pickford is irrational and hyper, and this is a result of that, not a malicious intent to injure another player

Dale Rose
355 Posted 20/10/2020 at 14:35:38
I never normally do it, but I had too. The RS fan sites are very annoyed. London must be very cross indeed Peterborough is inconsolable.
So annoyed they are all fighting amongst themselves, as to who was the most annoyed. One poor chap was physically sick. Lets hope he was sick listening on the car radio, and it went down the heater vents.
TWATS .
Charles Brewer
356 Posted 20/10/2020 at 14:36:07
It now appears that Redshite pressure has got the ref banned for the season. Well that sends a message doesn't it? Cross the Redshite and you lose your job. I'm sure none of the other referees will be in any way influenced. This foul club knows no limits to corruption (they're pretty good at murder too, if they were in the USA I suspect a RICO investigation woiuld not be far off).

I see it has now gone off with another US owned cesspit of a club and is seeking to set up its own European league.

Given this development, the other clubs of the EPL and League should immediately expel both clubs from all competitions and from any television money associated. If necessary, they could come to an arrangement with the League for a couple of clubs to be promoted - I'm sure Bristol City and Reading (and Ipswitch / Hull and so on).

On the other hand, I suspect that the prospect of watching Krasnodar v Rennes and Bayern Munich v Rotivator Volgograd and Redshite crushing Liechtenstein Academicals will attract a much smaller worldwide audience than City v Arsenal, Spurs v Chelsea, Everton v Villa.

Kenny Smith
357 Posted 20/10/2020 at 15:56:44
In a week we’ve had Project Big Pockets, the on going vigil for Van Dijk, the hounding of Pickford and the VAR ref David Coote and now the filthy fuckers are leading the charge for a European competition that will dwarf tjf Champions league.
This competition will have 5 of the biggest clubs in England competing each year without dropping out at any point. Who are the top 5 clubs. them and United ? 20 years ago it wouldn’t of been Chelsea. 10 years ago it wouldn’t of been City. It’s never been Spurs and Arsenal are fading rapidly. The rush to get this sorted to avoid the likes of us muscling in is sickening.
Let them have a proper full time European League because I don’t care if we never play Liverpool again. I don’t think I’ve hated them, their players / manager and ridiculous flag waving fans as much as I do right now.
David Cash
358 Posted 20/10/2020 at 16:14:08
Dale

If we are nominating for the final word on this matter. I vote for your final word.

Graham Rathbone
359 Posted 20/10/2020 at 18:44:43
Noticed this in the I newspaper this morning and thought I might share it.

Klopp is discussing Van Dick getting over his injury,

"We are there for him, he knows that and we will wait for him like a good wife is waiting when her husband is in jail"

In Jail? not At Sea, At Work or even at War? WTF

I think what ever marbles he has left have slowly rolled away!

Dale Rose
360 Posted 20/10/2020 at 19:14:04
Thanks David.
Bill Watson
361 Posted 20/10/2020 at 19:22:23
The more I see/hear the disgraceful antics of that greedy, corrupt, inhaling, shower, and their half witted replica clothing clad fans, the more I hope van Dijk is out for ages and never makes a full recovery.

Sorry if that offends some on here but they've succeeded in dragging me down to their level.

Rob Halligan
362 Posted 20/10/2020 at 19:34:11
Graham, it seems on this occasion that the husband is serving life, because it's going to be an awfully long time before Van Dijk is seen again.

Bill, agree 100%. Just think back three years when Seamus had his leg broken, and then bastards were singing that sick song about him. Well just switch the name Seamus Coleman for Virgil Van Dijk, and bobs your uncle!!

Bill Watson
363 Posted 20/10/2020 at 19:54:35
Now I've just heard Klopp is implying further action should be taken against Richariison and the officials although "I really wouldn't like to see it".
My arse!
Is there no end to these snivelling, whining, bastards and their breathtaking sense of entitlement?
The sooner they fuck off to a European league and super fixtures v Lille etc., the better.
Jerome Shields
364 Posted 21/10/2020 at 09:24:02
Neil #352,

I agree regarding distribution and catching, or command of the area. But, in the last three games, there has been a marked improvement in Pickford's distribution and maintaining possession. As to catching and command of his area, this is a complex subject. It's caught up in catching and use of gloves.

I agree that a 'first to the ball' catch shows a goalkeeper to be in command of his area, but the use of gloves in the modern games is more orientated to punch and palm over. I would guess that the latter is based on percentage decisions, based on analysis of goalkeepers in games. Pickford is being coached to play this way.

For instance, I think it was the Brighton match, Pickford appeared to not catch the ball, but palmed it forward into a dangerous area, resulting in a goal. Tim Howard said Pickford should have palmed it over the bar. This is glove speak, not catch and command speak.

So in the modern game, command of the area is not viewed as being important because the analysis does not show it to be important percentage wise. It is now rare in games to see a goalkeeper catch a ball under pressure.

Pickford's problem in the above match was the direction he palmed the ball in. It could be that he instinctively wanted to catch the ball, but technically he is trained to palm it, and so was caught in two minds.

There is more to being a Premier League goalkeeper than meets the eye.

Jerome Shields
365 Posted 21/10/2020 at 09:34:05
The other thing is that the gloves are not designed to catch a ball, but to stop and deflect the ball. Rather than punching with one hand, goalkeepers with gloves use a two-handed fist, which adds power to the palm away.
Kevin Molloy
366 Posted 21/10/2020 at 15:29:05
if anybody wanted chart to reflect the progress Everton have made under Carlo I would strongly recommend the Everton thread from the past three months on rawk. From being the objects of pity and ridicule just two months ago, is is fascinating to see our progress from 'Bless them, they're so crap' to ' two wins and they think they're going to win the league.Pffft.' to 'I hope nobody is seriously saying in here Everton are going to win the league' to 'Everton can't win the league. They just don't have the players. James will be injured soon as will DCL and Richarlison, and they wont be top come christmas'
I love how the line we have to cross is being kicked repeatedly into the future. They may be top now, but wait until after Christmas'. I'm sure they'll be right, eventually.

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