Resistance is Futile

I'd have liked to have seen Tom Davies start, but nows the time for this team to make a stand and fight.

No scope for lazy tackles and hopefully they will shoot within range but get plenty of decent crosses in.

UTFT!

Seriously some of those on the bench must not be up to scratch, so the likes of Gomes and Sigurdsson will going all out for sixty minutes before being replaced with fresh legs, shows how poor we have been left with injuries, good job we know how to grin and bear it.

Carlo obviously has a cunning plan, but I have no idea what it is. You're playing the world's most mobile, fast-passing team, so you stick Siggy and Gomes in the middle, drop your best central defender, and leave the terrier-like Davies on the bench.

Really looking forward to being proved wrong here.

However this is a cup game and the least we should expect is that it is treated as one. Nothing but 100% effort should be tolerated.

If we try, I'll be happy with the players (maybe not Ancelloti), irrespective of the result.

Big responsibility on DCL and Richy upfront to make the most of what for sure will be limited opportunities.

Also looks like he wants speed in 2 of 3 of his centre backs. If Holgate and Godfrey play as they did at Anfield, that is a plus.

Whoever was in the starting XI for either side it was always going to be a challenge for Everton.

1 game from Wembley. 2 games from the final. 3 games from glory.

Gerrin-ta-em!

Gonna be a long 90 minutes.. long ball probably our best option

Might suit us.

Very ominous opening period.. standing off and adopting a tight 532 in our on half..

Once we started to press them we looked much better.. effort now being shown. Everyone doing well but Gomes has been outstanding.

This game is there to be won.

The two banks of 'flexible fives' have dulled City's usual quick, slick passing. Virginia hasn't been tested at all. The centre backs refusing to been drawn out of position. Midfielders helping to choke City's passing lines.

City the ones looking lethargic, for all their harmless possession.

The 2-3 times we have taken time on the ball and actually passed through City, we're making inroads. We have encroached their penalty with a sniff of a chance far more than they have penetrated ours.

One telling corner. Just one telling corner could be all we need, given the way that first half has played.

Let's not pretend. City are a very special side. But, as we've seen with Everton many times this season, if you start low energy and low paced, it can be hard to throw the switch and pick it up to what is needed.

We are well in this.

The measure of Foden as a footballer is that he didn't crumple after Holgate's daft challenge.. I've got a lot of time for that lad.

I backed us to win after ninety, but this might be going to ET

We threatened more than they did (or we threatened and they didn't).

I'll take dull for this game. We'll get a chance.

The major problem with this side is there just isn't enough movement. There's no option to pass to up top. Too negative again. Oh well season over.

The boot waved in Mina's face affects how he heads the ball.

Timid? Spineless? Bollocks.

Don't let disappointment cloud common sense.

We abandoned being attacking for the first Derby.

I thought the plan was good. Don't press, don't chase. Apply pressure as a team when they get in our half. We restricted them to long shots and crosses. But it wasn't the all out defensive effort we tried in the league.

At 75 minutes I was wondering when the City subs were coming. And when Davies might come on. Ultimately it was de Bruyne who made the difference.

We had opportunities in that game.

Second goal an irrelevance. We were chasing. And it's a refereeing decision from someone who doesn't understand the game. Slow motion looks ok, but the game isn't played in slow motion.

Poor reflection of what I watched

The worry is that Man City are going to dominate everything for a long time - which will be very dull.

Just disappointed we didn't go more attacking or try and play when (and it wasn't often) we were given a bit of time to move forward.

A few chances for Ric that he didn't hit the target with. That's the difference. Take your chance, you may only getting 1.

Early days but our young keeper looks very impressive.

Scrappy first goal we could have done better with, but the ball and luck ran with City.

Mahrez raised boot on Mina, can understand why the ref let play go one. Game dead and buried at 2-0.

Virginia did very well. Absolutely blameless.

For anyone bemoaning the lack of substitues, our bench was:

Leban, Tyrer, Broadhead, Davies, Iwobi, John, Keane, Nkounkou, Onyango.

Some Blues would struggle to recognize all but 3 of those players.

The international break with few of our players travelling has come at a good time for us.

Gutted.

Phil smith Lukaku scored 2 goals that game, thats a big gap never filled.

Branthwaite had 3 impressive games last season, was MotM in one of them, but put him out on loan, while forced to include two untried 18-year-olds and a 16-year-old on the subs bench from the Under-23s in other games.

Thank heavens Everton have 46 points, because Everton are not in a good place at this moment. Nor are the fans.

I am disappointed but not angry or deflated. Let's aim for 4th now.

"One of the toughest games in the last year. So difficult to get through them. You need incredible talent and commitment from our players to win it in the end."

We put up a good fight.

We're much better with Mina as well.

With 20 minutes to go, we tired and the gaps got slightly bigger and that's all a team like Man City need. De Bruyne's goal was clinical btw.

Nothing on the bench to affect the game but I would have preferred fresh legs earlier. A big shout for the keeper, he was fantastic.

Be interesting to see with better players if Carlo will be more progressive. We have to hope so. Fortune favours the brave.

I am not going to criticize the team for giving it their best – which is what they did. It's all you can ask.

But if Carlo went with more attacking football, it would be most likely a 0-5 thumping. Their team is on an incredible run, they're winning everything... Best way to counter that is to play careful catenaccio style and try to not lose. Look at Everton's bench and then at Man City's. See the difference?

It was a good game, a bit of luck and Richarlison's overhead kick goes in or one of the strikers flick it to another who scores... and then it would be a completely different game.

Which fans are you talking for there?

Not speaking for me, I am happy with the progress. Even more so after tonight's performance

If we would have played an open attacking game against this Man City team, more than likely it would have been a cricket score. We all could see what Ancelotti was after, playing defensively – well, most of us could; however, playing against such a team as City and holding on for 90-plus minutes is almost impossible.

For those slagging the team selection? Well, who would you have played? Where's the alternatives to what we had out and how would they have somehow changed the result?

That sort of defeat I can accept.

On to the league – let's pick up as many points as possible and secure 7th or better.

Summer is crucial, need a few more Godfreys in various positions. I'll be disappointed if we are waiting to do business towards the end of the window. This season has highlighted this squad's shortcomings and we don't have a squad. We need first-teamers and need to be smart in recruiting some good squad players.

Lots of work ahead for Ancelotti and Brands.

By the end of the match, I was content with the effort shown, fed up that De Bruyne's goal was allowed given the proximity of Mahrez's high boot to Yerri's face – and never mind that he may have pulled out, the boot made Yerri's compromised clearance a gift for them. And I was impressed by our young 'keeper.

If we can put a realistic bench together next season, we'll continue to improve results, and hopefully the quality of attacking football.

We played the perfect game-plan and executed it flawlessly. I honestly thought we were going to plunder a goal late on, or maybe in extra-time. Not one player out there gave less than their all.

Hats off to Virginia who showed character and ability and absolutely did not deserve to get beaten twice. I'd love to see more of him tbh.

Godfrey was immense, Mina dominant aerially and Holgate showed how much more comfortable he is at centre-half. Allan was back to his pre-injury best.

Gomes, I take my hat off; I thought he'd be a liability but he put in one of his best performances of the season. The wing-backs shut their wide players down and broke forward when they could. Sigurdsson was not as involved as Allan and Gomes but closed off routes to goal and kept shape with discipline. Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin were active and dangerous whenever we got on the ball.

Man City are near-unbeatable, courtesy of the financial doping present in football. Their 2nd eleven would qualify for the Europa League, no doubt. You have to get everything right, play to the maximum and hope most of their players are not on it to have a chance. Sadly, all it takes is a slight error or loss of concentration – inevitable after almost 90 minutes of resolute defending and trying to break without losing the ball sloppily – and one of their amazing players will strike.

Consider that, until this season, Gundogan was considered one of their squad players.

I know it won't happen, but if those players could put that effort into every game between now and the end of the season, then they could still surprise us.

My only gripe tonight is that we were tiring, especially in midfield, he maybe should have changed it, but we needed more quality in forward areas, and never had a thing on the bench that was going to help us create anything.

I cursed Oliver, still think he might have blown his whistle if it was a City defender heading that ball. Mina's play-acting is poor imo, and I'd love to see play-acting taken out of the game, but can these referees provide consistency?

City are a ludicrous team though. And it helps when you're bringing Mahrez and De Bruyne off the bench.

The amount of people on here that are satisfied with sitting back and hoping not to get slaughtered amazes me. We're destined to be mediocre forever, it seems.

What would your team selection have been? What formation?

I personally don't like getting beat. With some people, getting beat becomes part of a habit I don't wish to adopt. But you are quite happy to finish 4th in the Premier League, while Everton are conceding at least 2 goals a game, home and away, with scoring getting more difficult.

The maths says that Everton are on a slide. What do you think?

The Italian I would like to manage Everton is the one who hates to give away at least one goal in 2 or 3 matches, not the Italian who is not reacting to the 2 goals Everton are conceding in at least one match.

Carlo did a great job with the assets he had available. I think we all know that if Carlo had been managing the City Squad and Pep our squad Carlo would have come out the winner.

I'm tired of the mediocrity.

I thought Virginia played well and made one great save. Let's play like that in the remaining games and get a European place.

Commitment was good.

I've no complaints about the result other than some poor decisions by the officials: their second, if the other way round and was for Everton, it would have got disallowed.

Improve our shooting and now to go again vs Crystal Palace, a must-win to stay in touch with a European place.

Quality and depth of squad; Man City could put 3 teams out every week, and that's a big difference.

It was a siege the last 20 minutes but tonight was a defeat but the players done their best.

Gutted but not dejected.

I fancy Leicester as an outside bet now to win the FA Cup; we shall see.

It's not about team selection or formation, it's about mentality. I can't believe that so many people are quite satisfied with being rank average and accepting defeat before a ball is kicked. While ambition is considered idealistic and delusional, you're going to struggle to get very far.

Andy @86.

I might be more confident in your prediction if I hadn't watched us lose at home to some quite frankly shocking sides and get completely outplayed at times into the bargain.

What's 'realism'? It wasn't 'realistic' to win 4-0 against Man City a few years back. Or to beat Man Utd in the 1995 FA Cup Final. They both still happened.

The current crop of players we have, they are at best just above a mid-table group, that are playing to the pinnacle of their abilities which throughout most of this season away from home, they have.

We can be critical of Ancelotti; personally, I don't think any manager will work at Everton until the mantra is changed at the club and the sentiment left behind, but whatever manager we get, the flaws are still there.

We will need to further ourselves as a club until we sign more dynamic, fitter attacking players; the way Leicester City have recruited players should be our model to follow.

We have this annoying habit of signing players that just sit in midfield; whilst the likes of Allan is good at his duties, we need to be signing dynamism. Doucouré is a good example but someone that's more creative and better on the ball.

We can't pull out the likes of Sigurdsson, Iwobi, Gomes, Coleman again next season and seriously expect much different results.

The summer is a massive one because it will give Ancelotti a serious chance to build on some foundations laid this season, but next season must see a vast improvement in the way we set about games of football.

There has to be more to all the outlay spent than just sitting deep defending, it's exactly what Allardyce was crucified for in just 6 months in the job.

Thats fine, it's your opinion.

Do you think the players had the wrong mentality tonight?

But we needed the deadwood out and we will have with Kenny, Tosun, Bolasie, Walcott hopefully out the door. I hope Delph, Besic and Bernard join them.

So, with the basis we've got and another 3 or 4 real quality players, we will offer even more next season. We still might sneak into the Europa League yet.

Everton fans are "not in a good place" – your opinion. It's not mine.

With better players, we'll be more of a match for Man City – and everyone else, for that matter.

I don't doubt the commitment to the cause if that's what you mean. They played the way they were instructed to do and gave it a good go. I just think the cause was a lost one and will remain so until there's a mentality shift in general.

So Man City did not have a lot up-front. Come to think of it, neither did Everton. Although, with some Everton fans, getting beat does not bother them.

I was wrong.

The wait goes on.

Kevin (59), and what about the 2-5 Leicester result? Pressing, pace and quick counter attacks. Everything that we're lacking at the moment. When we mauled them we had young, quick thinking Barkley and Tom giving it everything in the middle, Mirallas and Lukaku very fast and the added pace of Lookman when he came on. Our current side consists of Sigurdsson, Allan and Gomes (plus James when he's fit) in the middle. Zero pace. Little pressing and almost no movement in this team.

On their day, City might be unplayable but they started today without De Bruyne (who really changed the game when he came on – how good is he?) and Mahrez in the side. No pace = no chance against City. Dom is fast but Richarllison looks like he's lost a yard. Need to get some pace in this side – and fast... lol.

I thank the players for their efforts this season but they are a glass ceiling bunch, sadly.

Nobody's fault.

It is just Everton don't have a winning mentality, that's all, which is a far bigger problem than getting beat this evening.

On another point, I checked on the Live Forum and was disappointed to see a critic of Carlo being subjected to vile personal abuse. The gang responsible should be ashamed.

Andy, I don't go on that. Disgusting comments on there. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion.

All opinions, but I thought Ancelotti played a system that suited the squad tonight, and not just because we were playing Man City.

In all competitions this season – Premier League, Champions League, League Cup and FA Cup – they have played 25 away games.

In the 17 away games since then, they have had two 0-0 draws (consecutive away games vs Porto and Man Utd). Today represented the 14th consecutive away win for City since those draws.

It is not being meekly defeatist, or accepting mediocrity, or being easily appeased, or acting like an apologist for the manager, the players, the club, to acknowledge – given the relative strengths of the two squads – that achieving a win today was always going to be a stretch.

Looking to the future, I long for the day that we can go toe to toe with a team like City and come out victorious. That day was not today and was never likely to be.

We all want to see us flower as a side. I think it's going to happen. And as I've said before, we are now backed by people who will just keep going until they get success regardless.

It looked to me like the plan was to take it to penalties.

Injuries have had a big impact on the last few games for Everton, but today they battled well until a couple got tired after the 75-minute mark. I would have replaced Holgate with Nkounkou and pushed him forward on the left and Richarlison on the right and Coleman going back...

But no real complaints, we were playing an outstanding team with a squad of about 18 very good players, so the result was inevitable once they got that first, but lucky goal, and we had to go all-out attacking for the equaliser and leave ourselves open to City's quick breaking attack.

We know that Everton needed help in our midfield from last season and needed to get rid of some of the high earners who are no longer wanted. We strengthened our midfield that is strong enough if they are all fit. We are slowly reducing some of the high earners at the club but are having to lose money to do it.

During the next transfer window, the manager has to be given the funds to bring in who he wants as Allan, James, Doucouré and Godfrey were all good buys, a couple for the future and a couple to stabilize the midfield.

What we have to do is make sure that the likes of Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin, and Godfrey don't get their heads turned and get sold.

There is going to be the normal complaining about today's game but, with what he had available, Ancelotti played the right game, and City may have had most of the possession minutes, but they never really overworked the keeper, and it took a ball off the bar from a save, for them to score.

The team played well today and for once kept their positions, and played to how they had practiced during the week. We all would have liked a win today, but what we need is the same effort for the rest of the season – especially at home – to qualify for Europe.

Amen.

I agree, subs could maybe have come sooner, certainly Davies, but basically we were beaten late on by a much better team.

Gutted with the result but I can't see much to complain about with the match. And I thought Godfrey was one of the best players on the pitch.

This new European competition concerns me, do we want to be in a pariah's competition? I don't think so...

We did have 10 shots. But, aside from Digne, who was there in that matchday squad to generate those kind of chances? Outside of set plays or Richarlison producing a magic run, we don't have the ammo.

Certainly no disgrace and we move on.

They dominated and we were limited with our chances. It is what it is, and we have to finish the season strongly to get the best position we can.

Man City are just a great side, so much strength in depth. The best side in this country in my lifetime. Probably the best side in the world at the moment.

We've been one of the best sides in the world ourselves, in the 60s and 80s. It'll come again, possibly under Ancelotti, and when it does we'll compete on an equal footing with the likes of City.

The best team won, it's as simple as that. But well done Blue boys.

But some glimmers of hope. Virginia did very well. I couldn't quite bring myself to voice the concern earlier but I was worried he might get a hatful put past him. But no, he did himself proud. I hadn't really taken him seriously as a first-team option but maybe he's close.

I also thought the mentality was pretty good. That team did believe it could win. Obviously not in a gung-ho sort of way but in the sense that it was expecting to sneak a goal and dig in. It was only beaten by a fortunate deflection and a goal which could have been disallowed.

If we keep that mentality and improve the playing squad, we will win games like that. And hopefully trophies.

The main commentator has the excuse that he clearly doesn't understand football and was reading from a script. McManaman, though, combines gruesome banter with embarrassing bias and has no mitigation at all for his awfulness.

It was an all-round disgrace.

I guess you have not really watched City play much this year, just sitting back and let them come at us. City's whole game is on possession; they will pass it back to the keeper if it means keeping possession and dare the opposition to come out and try to win the ball and leave gaps that they strike.

There is only 1 team out of the last 33 to play them has managed a win, so don't you believe that the other 32 have tried various methods to beat them. We don't have the players to come out and attack a team set up that City have, without leaving gaps at the back that they will open up and punish you.

We had a game plan, we executed it pretty well but just got undone in the end.

It's obviously pretty depressing we have to have such a game plan but it's the reality of the situation. Anyone thinking we should have been more expansive is deluded. We'd have got battered.

I wasn't in a gang, I was posting as an individual. The fact others had a similar view is by the by.

I stand by everything I said

me too, I believe that. With hopes of a bit of luck and maybe nicking one. Sad to say.

I hope we continue to play this way all season, because Guardiola has never been a manager to give false praise after a win, and when Everton play like this they are a very hard side to play against.

Against most teams you don't always have to be so rigid, but rigid works better for this squad of players imo, although I can't wait to add more quality into our team.

Ancellotti has no emotion some say, I think he's warm and clever, but don't doubt for one minute he can't be cold. I'm not Keane's biggest fan, he never got in the England squad, and his manager said, he will just have to play better for Everton and prove people wrong, and then dropped him for our biggest game of the season?

Don't believe anything Ancellotti says, I just hope we can back him in the summer.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/evertons-long-wait-for-silverware-is-far-from-unique-as-footballs-superpowers-continue-to-dominate

I used to have soft spot for the Manchester Underdogs but they've become another Chelsea with knobs on.
FFP my arse!

Well hindsight is the perfect science. The game plan was sound, on another day we might have nicked one. I appreciate it feels very negative but it is just a fact, they are a much better side than us with much better players. Could we have been more expansive? Well of course, I suspect we would have been out of it by half time. But hey it's all about opinions

Dead wrong that people can't point this sort of thing out without head banging lunatics spitting their collective dummies out.

I disagree, I had pretty low expectations going into tonight. I certainly wasn't spitting my dummy out.

But if someone continually comes onto a forum spouting negative shite I'm happy to call it out.

Why?

That malarkey aside, I am so proud of the effort today -- particularly by one very baby-faced goalkeeper who was everything we could have hoped for. And I would add hearty applause for inspired efforts by Godfrey, Mina, Dom, Gomes... hell, everybody in blue showed up and gave it all against the best team in the world.

Silverware next year.

There is a huge difference between disagreeing with an opinion and also posting foul mouthed abuse.

It's David v Goliath whenever we play City, Chelsea or Utd. They can practically pick 2 teams made up of full internationals.

That is the size of the job Ancelotti has on his hands.

We had a chance tonight and I would have loved to have given them a bit of a bloody nose but when we did have half chances we snatched at them. Their first goal wasn't a trade mark move it was a bit of a scramble and reaction from hitting the bar.

Oliver is probably our best ref but disappointed in him for not blowing for their 2nd goal. He blew for an imaginary pull on sterling in the first half. Just be consistent. He definitely blows if that's against a city player.

Thought all of our lads put a shift in tonight. We where crying out for legs to come off the bench after an hour but we just haven't got that option.

Allan my motm but it could easily have been Godfrey, Gomes or the front 2.

Johnny Logan.

Try the Royal Mail complaint site

Because shite is shite

Think he got called a c**t - vitriol aplenty methinks

Hopefully we stay in the mix for Europe, but we have to be patient. Last year we were gash, this year we at least look like a team that's becoming hard to beat.

This summer is *massive* once again. We need a right back “digne”, a goal scoring attacking midfielder who will get 15 goals, and a right winger who'll do the same.

Virginia's performance should save us any fees in that area. 3 big signings and we'll be hard to stop for top 2-4.

Everyone reacts to a defeat differently, but earlier in the season every time Liverpool had a good win, you used to come on saying it's clear they are the best team around Barry, and tonight after going out the cup, you come on with smiley faces, saying at least we can concentrate on the league!

I know you like to tell it how it is Barry, but smiley faces doesn't really make any sense to me on an Everton forum, just after we have been knocked out the cup, and it's probably why I rarely agree with you in general mate, but we are all different and that's what makes this website so addictive I suppose.

Everyone knows that shite is shite but what is your reason for this

"But if someone continually comes onto a forum spouting negative shite I'm happy to call it out"

it seems your contention is only what you see as "positive" views should be allowed - yes?

I rarely enter the live forum, but if there's been a spat or two then it's only reminiscent of Goodison Pk sometimes on match day

Not really if you call someone a c**t you get chinned and/or thrown out - very different to a forum

A nark in the match is face to face mate.

Personally I don't think we have enough money to make a difference. Anybody who does think so is totally deluded, it will be exactly the same next season as this one.

Who could possibly make any impact at Everton ? All the best players go to the elite clubs which we are no longer one of, end of.

Of course not. Every one is entitled to an opinion. But by having an opinion you are subject to challenge. That's the way it works. If the website owners want to say that challenge is inappropriate then that's their prerogative.

I would say in this instance, here we have a poster who loves to come on mainly when we've had a bad result and be provocatively negative and it got the reaction it deserved. Just my opinion of course.

I was going to say much of what you said so you saved me the effort.
Just to say that if we'd have 'gone at them in the first half' as many are saying then we'd have been dead and buried by half time. Maybe we should have thrown a few subs on after their first goal but until then City really hadn't looked like scoring apart from the one Virginia tipped around the post and there was always a chance we'd nick one.
Gomes is an enigma; he was as good today as he was poor against Burnley. Godfrey is immense and must be one of the buys of the season.
As most of us appreciate the defence and attack are OK but midfield is the area which, urgently, needs strengthening. If we can do that in the summer next season could be half decent.

well then we must accept maximum safety first against City and whoever else is at or near their level at any one time, as a default approach. I think we played a very solid game today, and City's break ultimately came via a bit of lucky running.

I just think there was a chance here and there to go at them a little more, when regaining possession in and around our area, moving forward faster from the midfield, rather than everyone staying back until all City's players had dropped back into place.

We actually did this several times and it paid dividends. Gomes surprisingly was looking to get the ball moving up more than I can remember recently but often had no-one to find. Equally surprisingly, he went past and across people with the ball too.

There were periods where we were literally just hoofing the ball back up the pitch twice a minute or more, only for it to come straight back, putting us back under pressure (which we dealt with well, I admit), all for the want of a player or two making a forward run to give an option.

All said and done, I feel the system is becoming very rigid and we're seeing it regardless of the opposition. We can't change all the players and we don't need to. Would've been nice to chance our arm a little more, in a game we were never statistically favourite to win - but sometimes fortune favours the brave.

The live forum is not for me for this very reason though, because it's hard enough having to watch Everton sometimes, and when the football starts I always think it's better to just concentrate on the game

"be provocatively negative "

You admit that is your opinion but certainly it is not that of others as you can see here furthermore how that justifies laying out personal abuse to a fellow evertonian is mystifying.

I remember pictures of Liverpool fans fighting each other at some euro game and people saying it couldn't happen here. You and your compadres killed that myth

Not necessarily, depends how big you are. I think Ian goes overboard with criticism just to stir it up. Which he's free to do. But as with family, some fans might criticize the team but if someone else does they get upset. I don't know about Graham but the other two who were upset are long term diehard passionate fans who don't generally cause a ruckus on here

I mean it's an argument of course. We were much open in the league game than tonight and in both games we got beat by two.

I think it was a probably a decent plan tonight, it certainly worked for longer. But the stark facts they had seven players on their bench who are better players than our starting eleven.

To even have a chance of competing, good clubs with talented managers realise that the only way to squeeze a point out of the favoured ones is to play negative football in a bid to nullify their talents, and hopefully nick one late in the match.

Entertainment? As if!!

And all home delivered to true football fans by faceless blazered muppets who find themselves in a position to make crucial decisions to the damage of so many.

Rant over.

"I think Ian goes overboard with criticism just to stir it up. Which he's free to do"

I think you are wrong on the "stirring" bit but even if you were right as you say he is free to do so. What I don't get is Evertonians calling each other "c**ts" as a result. Surely there are better ways to resolve differences of opinion

If you are going to post an opinion don't be expect not to be challenged.

I think the number of posters who got upset at his posts is not surprising

Our midfield and breaking at speed is the problem.

Defence is fine, but a right back would be a welcome buy, in the summer, we look sorted when we have Allan and Doucoure in the team, if we could get another quality midfielder to go with them and a right winger then we will be much stronger next season.

At the right price, I would have another go for Zaha and Max Aaron's and try and find that additional quality midfielder, unless Gbamin comes back strong.

Just a few tweaks here and there needed, and more strength from the bench.

Congratulations on the recruitment of Virginia and Godfrey. Yes, it will take time to catch up the likes of Leicester who sign unknowns and spend 2-3 years improving them. But I think we are transitioning the right way as a club, and are not a million miles from consistently drawing with City. Possibly only just need one more summer transfer window for us to be a lot closer to City.

Regarding backing in the summer, I look at RB and midfield as problems but I'm not sure who to keep in mf assuming we don't replace them all. They have their various merits but weaknesses. For eg if we go with James, he needs Duke and Allan to cover his ass. Rich and DCL up top that means one spot open. Do we bring in a speedy winger? How would speedy winger work with a better RB. I'm just not sure how to get the balance right without scrapping the whole lot save maybe Duke, as they don't offer us the right balance.

Great summary of the game.

Thought Virginia was really good. His distribution with both feet was excellent throught out the game. Better than both Pickford and Olsen. Really put the pressure on City.

I still think we are different from them mate, but a lot of Evertonians are mad scousers, and amongst the most loyal fans in the country, and I've seen many, get a little bit more than defensive if someone is criticising something they don't agree with.

and I feel philosophically resigned about the result rather than dismayed. A little regret that such ultra-defence appears the only answer right now. I hope it changes. One day someone will throw the kitchen sink at City and tear them a new one - wish it had been us tonight, we had nothing to lose.

No one is suggesting challenging is out of the question I am challenging you on your method not your challenge. So far you haven't managed a sensible reason why you would verbally abuse a fellow blue. Well, that's not quite right it seems you lose control at what you see as negativity - have I got that right?

So as I say, overall very impressed and didn't appear to show any nerves at all. Looks good for the future as a permanent back up to Pickford, if reports in the daily mail about Robin Olsen wanting to return to Rome are true.

Sorry Thomas, just re-read your post about his save onto the bar and not the one he tipped round the post. As I say, he was really unlucky with the first goal. He managed to get a strong hand onto the shot and tip it onto the bar, though it was more a reflex save as it was very quick coming at him. He stood up well to the shot. Overall a very composed performance from Joao Virginia.

No, maybe we just have different views on what abuse means. I mean I call many of my best mates fucking bellends 😂

Did Wales lose? I switched it off when they were comfortably ahead - bloody hell

Also remember when criticising City, Mansour approach Bill first.

Andy Crooks brought up this abuse point, not wanting to start anything with him but he's posted similar remarks about players after defeats. So if we are United in supporting the team, therefore we shouldn't abuse one another, how's it acceptable to abuse the actual team we support? I feel personally if we set a standard of respect it should apply to everyone including the manager Darren (who was also offended by the abuse) calls The Ginger Twat.

I was impressed with him.
Seemed very calm by nature.
Confident lad.

They would have to be friends because with strangers you might get your nose re-arranged which brings me to the point I and others would probably make - forum manners should reflect real life - it's cowardly shite otherwise

He had a very good game though. One of those messed-up punches, DCL (I think it was) jumped into him as he went to punch.

Yes the last play in the 82nd minute ! Same as Everton !

God I'm depressed

I happen to agree with you. I never personally abuse present staff of EFC be it the tea lady, directors or players and if I criticise it is about the job they do NEVER anything personal.

Ya twat - hahahaha (only kidding, mate)

some rather sad reality in there.

Although English my ancestral dna goes back to Princess Nest of Deheubarth so I feel for you, mate

You might be on to something perhaps we need a tea lady of substance - lets start a petition to sign Mrs Doyle, Craggy island. lol

Tammy Abraham – homegrown
Andreas Christensen – homegrown
Fikayo Tomori – homegrown
Mason Mount - under-21
Callum Hudson-Odoi - under-21
Billy Gilmour - under-21
Reece James - under-21
Kai Havertz - under-21

Chelsea also have numerous players on loan in the premier league and in the championship.

But when looking deeply at Everton's academy the picture is not so 'rosy,' but disturbing. Since 2016, Everton only have one player who has graduated from the academy to play for the 1st team regularly at the beginning of a game or brought on as a sub later in a game.

Tonight was pretty much part of the bigger picture I always bang on about, why I can't be arsed with us in europa league and why I say our players are pretty much shite.

If you are not in the champions league regular, football is pretty much pointless.

Its not because I don't like the players but because they are nowhere near city or champions league players at the top clubs.

Its sad and I wish I could be more positive but i'd say if you want anything to change at Everton or in football, your energy needs spending in digesting Mike Keatings points, getting on board and hoping its changes.

Blaming Chelsea is ridiculous. Abramovic done what United and Liverpool done forever and the only affect its had on football is the elite got frightened when City and PSG done the same, then they closed ranks and set up shop for themselves.

Before Chelsea spent money, Arsenal and United were dominating English football and Everton still had no chance of the title.

Football is fucked for us and I hate the fact its a closed shop, as far as winning titles goes anyway.

" The present Man City are THE best team in the top English league I have watched in all that time "That is my opinion and there may be many who disagree, but I don't know who have ever been better.

I am as disappointed that we lost as much as any supporter. However I refuse to be critical of any player who wore the Everton shirt today. Initially I was not to sure about the starting line up, but based on who was available Ancelotti probably got it right.

I still hope for better times ahead but it is so obvious from comparing teams that MONEY is the major difference. We had an under eighteen bench. Man C could have two successful teams in the Premier. As much as I admire their football I think it is such a shame that money has become EVERYTHING.

From the late fifties on such teams as Portsmouth, Ipswich, Burnley, Derby, Notts Forest, Blackburn have all won the top level. That does not include Everton and all the othe so called top teams of today Unfortunately the competiveness of the past will NEVER happen again. The main reason is money and Multi Billionaires who have come from over seas to own our Teams.

So as much as I admire the football of Man C as I previously mentioned, I don't like the way it has all happened. We may be fortunate enough in that we have a super wealthy backer in Moshiri and I still hope to see the new ground. I support the move, but my heart and soul will always be in Goodison Park along with the 78,000 + crammed together.We were all there to watch our local team do their best. and sometimes their "worst". But that is what it is to follow EVERTON.

Miserable prick, fucking pox, miserable twat, sad twat, knob, dick, fucking bellend, pig shit, fucking cock, knobber, Some fans also saw a cunt, add to that several 'fuck off's.

Some fans need to reflect on this.

Where that effort and Intensity was Vs Burnley and 4 more - well that's for another day...but it needs addressing soon.

In the absence of a lucky bounce, we never looked likely to score. Then they added Mahrez and KDB, we offered a very belated Iwobi - therein lies the whole game.

2 weeks off to twiddle our thumbs - I hate International breaks.

I thought you were trying to be positive, but some are fixated in their attitude to Everton and knee-jerk when things don't go the way they want. Everton have improved a lot and will continue to do so.

Graham#227

I don't think pinpoint crosses would make any difference to Calvert-Lewin. . . His positional sense is poor and he is either in the wrong position or behind his marker. His touch in the area is poor, as is his shooting ability. In the last three games, he has resorted to flicking the ball, which is the same as humming a tune because he does not know the words.

On HesGoal, the accompanying commentator pointed out two clear poor plays by Calvert-Lewin that were examples of the above. Everton are going to need a clinical striker and Calvert-Lewin is not going to make it.

I think both players have their strengths and weaknesses of course, but as a partnership I do not see any interchange of play, neither setting the other up a few times a match, and if the midfield are not creating, they are not creating for each other either. I feel there is a problem with the language barrier, but too me it goes beyond that. Calvert-Lewin is winning a lot of headers, but they are not getting picked up, and his hold-up play has come a long way, but something between them is just not gelling I feel. I also feel that Richarlison often picks the wrong ball. a couple

of times there was an outlet on the left, but he chose to cut inside, only to be confronted with a packed penalty area.

When Lineker left we still had Sharp, Heath, Wilkinson and Clarke. Oh what riches! Not sure if they were there at the same time!

Kevin Langley - remember him!?

A poster made a really good point before (just tried to find it but alas), FFP has meant that teams now do not and cannot have the financial clout of the 'BIG BOYS', thus the only way to compete is to go defensive, nick one - which makes for much more boring games!

My gripe is the play acting and feigning of injury, it really is red rag to a bull!

Classic that cracked me up — no offense Ian.

Langley was invaluable with all the injuries we had in 87 title season, Reid, Sheedy, Mountfield etc, A quiet lad from Wigan but a great first touch.

No I don't think they're a good partnership at all. Do you remember under Koeman that DCL got a lot of assists? He has it in him to work in tandem but I feel that Rich just does his own thing. He's never in the box for knock downs. He loiters about midway in the opposition half and has one idea: dribble for a bit then shoot.

Carlo is not to blame. He knows we can't go toe to toe with city. Caution was his game plan hoping a mistake from city or bit of quality from us to win. A couple of quality players whom have won trophies are required this summer in the midfield area to drive the team forward.

All we know is getting this club back to the top is going to take some time and some luck.

We won the league because of squad depth that season - Paul Power! We had players like Neil Adams I seem to remember. Now, was there also a guy called Peter Billinge? Maybe that was a season or 2 before.

Kieran Kinsella - 239

Yes, they do not seem to be taking advantage of each other's talents at all, and seem on different wavelengths. I remember Calvert-Lewin getting a great assist from wing back!

Yes Langley was one of the many unsung heroes of 87. Everyone talks about the legends Sheedy, Sharp and co. But they forget all the injuries. Trevor Steven was top scorer with just 14 and I think 10 were penalties. Then you had Langley, Marshall, Pointon, Adams, Wilkinson obviously Power and Harper all playing an important role.

Yes I remember Peter Blllinge, I have an old team poster showing him. But bizarrely I just Googled him and while Everton records list him as Billinge he appears to have changed his name to Billing after he joined Crewe. Some kind of witness protection gig? Or someone at EFC couldn't spell?

I had a search too, and didn't find much. thinking I'd imagined it, or it was the Stella!

Like the time we signed Riquelme. Wait – that was Stella.

“Before heading off for the night, just to list some of the abuse I received tonight: Miserable prick, fucking pox, miserable twat, sad twat, knob, dick, fucking bellend, pig shit, fucking cock, knobber, Some fans also saw a cunt, add to that several "fuck off"s."

I can only assume that frustrations with the result bubbled over in a bit of an unsavoury manner and you became the target. But I am slightly troubled by your inclusion of the phrase “Some fans also saw a cunt” – in respect of the various insults thrown your way. I wasn't on the Live Forum today, but I had a quick scan of it just now – as I'm sure you did in order to source the list of insults that you have offered up – and I cannot see anyone calling you that particular curse word.

Someone used that word to describe Steve McManaman. Someone else used it about the commentators in general. A couple of other people used it about the team. Another used it about the ref. That was it as far as I could see.

So, to the person (Barry @ 155 I think) on this thread who introduced that idea that someone used that word, that is an unhelpful addition to the conversation.

And to you Ian, it really weakens your call for sympathy by perpetuating the myth that someone used that particular insult in reference to you, especially since you probably know that nobody did. No need to gild the lily.

Cheers Brian, I didn't think I had imagined it, and it was a good point!

There have been a number of signings I wish were Stella fuelled and imaginary!

Brian Wilkinson - 248

Must have been mate, I did try to see it on here to reference you! Don't like steeling other's ideas!

I think Gomez has finally adapted to the physicality of the EPL and come to realize he's a fairly well built fellow himself so doesn't have to get brushed aside as he did in the past. Now I'm not suggesting he had the time bending ability of James, but he does bring a calming composure to the team. He doesn't panic, he waits until he has a good option. My concern is that neither he nor James have any pace, and neither are good tacklers. So looking to next season, I can't see us progressing if both are playing regularly. On talent alone I'd pick James, but factoring in cry baby weakness, James isn't reliable enough. But if James is out, we have Sig who also is slow and can't tackle. So, Gomez may have to go just because it's easier to offload one player versus two number 10s and replace him with someone who can run faster than Bilyletdinov AKA a snail over salt

My take is that posters get frustrated with Ian Edwards because he doesn't offer alternatives to what he criticises. But, the abuse was definitely completely over the top.

I agree. If I could wave a magic wand I'd shift Bernard, Iwobi and Tosun and bring in some guys with pace. I'd also not extend Kings deal, though — if he's willing — I'd give Moise Kean another shot.

This summer is going to be the deciding factor as to whether or not Carlo and his crew have got what it takes to sort us out. There are alot of us who think we know who he will get rid of if at all possible and a few who would like certain players to come in if again possible.

He has the know-how for sure and with Brands we may be able to attract 3-4 decent players but will they gel and fit into the Carlo way of thinking, this is the question.

We are all waiting to see what happens for sure but just let's get over this season first and see where we end up regarding places etc. Being an Evertonian is never easy or straightforward but I suppose things will change, hopefully for the better.

Yeah, my knowledge is rather limited on that front too to be honest Brian!

I have been very disillusioned about our recent home performances, and quite often against (with all due respect) lesser opposition, who we could have/should have, beaten easily. Yesterday, we were not exactly down to bare bones, but had a few major absentees, and if I may add, playing probably the best (No, not Carlsberg) team in Europe and possibly the World at the moment.

There was none of the usual cursing from me, for under-performing prima donnas barely going through the motions, misplaced passes, and emulations of headless poultry. I felt for 84 minutes we matched everything that Man City had, and although they had us tortuously imprisoned in our own half for much of the game, we held out.

Pre-match ne'er-do-wells (oh yes, we also have a few on TW) were predicting the relatively inexperienced goalkeeper, Joao Virginia, would require Ralgex or Deep Heat for back problems, picking the ball out of the net so many times, and that was before half-time!

He would have been like a sand-bag on an extremely busy rifle range. Batman would have been proud of him, as a replacement for Boy Wonder, and even the passed Bruce Forsyth would surely have commented, "Didn't he do well?"

He has had a lot of bad luck along the way Joao, but he has risen above all that and can be proud of his 90-minute 'baptism of fire' where I must also interject that although he conceded two goals, neither were his fault. The whole team in fact, need to take a bow, for having gone toe to toe with City for 84 minutes. Okay, there were the odd misplaced passes, but nothing on the scale of what we have been subjected to.

Which beggars the question, if we could do it against City where were those collective and individual performances in previous games?

Kieran K. @ 243; my research tells me there is an optional, sometimes silent, 'e' at the end of some names ending in 'ing' depending on just where and how the holder of the name puts the emphasis on the last syllable(s).

Iin my opinion. the majority of ToffeeWebbers are informed, fair-minded Carlo supporters. However, there is definitely a gang on there... One which shouts down any criticism of the manager. They don't even try to counter criticism. They just want to silence it.

The guy simply pointed out that we didn't lay a glove on them. Is that even disputable???

I always see personal abuse as surrender: "I can't contest what you said, so I'll simply abuse you" ... Genius!

We can argue that we could have done things differently, or that we'd have been thrashed if we were bolder. The fact is we are out... the worst result happened anyway. Foolish abuse directed at a dissenter will not get us back in the draw for the semi-final.

Finally, a point of order re Kieran Kinsella @195:

I love that you somehow find a way to drag me into every debate. It's a magnificent obsession you have going on there... but please, enough of the lies. I did not say I was offended – that was somebody else. Although I do admit to feeling attacked by a group of very cross lambs from time to time.

Generally, I find the intelligence-insulting babble you regularly post far more offensive than any "abuse" I may have received.

"Man Utd fielded a D-team in the semi-final against us" ... "I have always had a soft spot for Sheffield because a West Ham player once caught the ball when our goalie was injured."

That's not opinion – it's just ill-informed gibberish.

We're pretty good against teams that come on to us, but when we are responsible for taking the initiative in games we aren't good enough.

I do think we looked really good defensively yesterday for 85mins of the game, we had a clear plan, the players looked confident that they knew what their roles were and seemed to relish playing in that ‘come on then what have you got' style.

A few of us recently discussed the virtues of playing higher up the pitch. I'm not criticising the manager, as he is using the tools he has. But, last night is the perfect example. City play high up the pitch because that's where you score goals and better protect your own. We can't do that consistently right now as we would be wide open. They also retain possession for the right reason. For those who oppose tika-takka or whatever it's labelled, that's how you do it. None of this imposter possession for possession sake, genuine keep the ball possession because if I have the ball, the opposition can't harm me. If that means going back to the keeper, then go back to the keeper. BUT; when they do go forward, they do so with purpose, intent and clinical ruthlessness. Sitting deep and being organised will make you difficult to beat, but keeps you in the odd memorable moment space. Be hard to beat and defend from the front; as in higher up the pitch. That's what successful teams do consistently. But you need the right tools.

So, as disappointing as the result was, the performance was solid. No gripes from me, we nearly held out, but they deliberately stepped up a gear to finish it.

We won't start with this squad next season. We will not have to consider or debate using James and Gomes every week. This squad is only 4+ main first team squad players away from the one inherited. It has improved what went before it. With another 4-5 added in the summer, we take another step forward. The depth of squad was all to apparent in those last 15 minutes. It was almost as if Pep thought "okay Everton, well played, but I'm bored now and we need to finish this. Kev, Mahrez, go and do a couple of shuttles, tie your boot laces and take your bibs off". Stark.

Billy @265: a like that. I'd add to make it a left to right sliding scale of 4 categories: Dreamer on the left, to optimist, to realist to non-believer on the right! I will shamelessly categorise myself optimist, although some will likely beg to differ.

I thought we defended well and it seems Pep agrees. If I was being highly critical, then I would have to ask what Sigurdsson's contribution was – as I felt, yet again, he just coasted through the game and can be a passenger.

Ian was mostly pointing out that Everton didn't threaten City at all. Which was entirely true. The behaviour on there was the equivalent of kicking a man whilst they were on the floor. Shameful.

I think it's 100% certain that people on here support Everton. We aren't always going to agree but taking out your unhappiness about Everton – and maybe your life in general – with personal abuse on one or two posters on there is not acceptable.

Everton will finish between 8th and 10th. What you get with Carlo is a very expensive manager who won't make any difference to the big picture.

I have just re-watched the highlights on MotD and, until the De Bruyne substitution, we were very comfortable. We had slightly less half chances throughout the game than they did. Yes, they had possession but did very little with it.

We had 10 shots, 2 on target; they had 15, 6 on target. They had 6 corners, we had 4. They had 74% possession, we had 26%. The thing that sticks out for me is we had 10 shots and created those shots with only 24% possession. We are going places as a team and Carlo is the manager to get us there, IMO.

I would love to see young Kean back here in a front 3 alongside Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin but I think he will make us a fair bit of cash to fund some transfers. A right-wingback is a must, as are two attacking midfielders in the mould of Mahrez (taking people on and getting crosses in to Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin) plus an athletic central midfielder who can push us forward and score goals. 4 players for me... who they are, I don't know... but that's what we need, IMO.

It was pretty much as I expected, only I wanted us to score the first goal in the last minute of added time.

For me, Virginia was superb and Gomes looked quicker and channelled his aggression. Generally Godfrey and Mina were untroubled. On the down-side, poor Seamus looked a little lost after the first half.

Someone above asked whether Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin are a good partnership. Clearly not. Richarlison is a one-man band and when the two of them do combine, it is often Dominic who is the provider.

The supply to Calvert-Lewin's head was intermittent, but we were up against a marvellous defence. However, they did have their Number 2 keeper and I would have liked Digne to have got down that wing and ping a few more crosses in.

I can't fault the effort but the tactics were never going to work. In a cup competition, perhaps it would have been worth throwing the dice on the hour and giving the midfield an extra man for the last 30 minutes.

Man Utd showed that Man City can be flummoxed by a high press. Carlo had dropped the slow-turning Keane and, with Godfrey and Holgate, had plenty of pace in the backline. Yet we never put them under any pressure.

Now over many years of playing minnows in cup games, we have been put under the cosh for periods by teams of much lesser ability. Rotherham made life very difficult for us in an early round. I just think that the chances of the tactics working were almost zero. We only nearly got it to full time; we were tired and would have had another half-hour to hang on for penalties. Then we would still have had to win it on penalties.

I just think Carlo's tactics made us think we couldn't beat "the best team in the world". (Who had lost 2 weeks ago to Man Utd). I would rather that he had told the team that City are beatable and that we were going to go out and have a real go at them.

It was a free hit. If we had tried and been spanked by three or four, no-one would have been outraged. As it went, we didn't have time to throw caution to the wind.

I wonder how the Goodison faithful would have reacted to that performance?

Although we defended for most of the game to a point that I felt comfortable and not really threatened, neither did we threaten.

At one point, I hypothetically wondered if we could go straight to penalties as it seemed our only chance of working their keeper.

Early season, Man City were not at the level they are currently. Leicester City are an outstanding counterattacking team and have consistently played this style since their title-winning season. They are also a stronger team than us.

Comparing our current team with the one that managed that 4-0 win is redundant. Ancelotti has brought in only 4 players, 2 of whom played yesterday. He is selecting tactics to fit what he has to work with band he got it 100% right imo.

We don't have the players to press high, certainly not a team like City. It likely would have resulted in a demoralising, heavy defeat, which could have a knock-on effect for the rest of the campaign.

I think it was a game where we did better than many expected, with the injuries we are carrying and the team we were up against, so I wouldn't really have a go at our liabilities.

But I have to say, most times I see Richarlison, I realise how ordinary he is, rarely produces the class and style that many think he has; very disappointing yesterday especially when Dominic put him through with a one-on-one and he didn't have the confidence to take the defender on but tried a pass that hit the defender on the elbow. I don't know where the pass would have finished up but he should have at least tried to do something more adventurous than that feeble effort.

And I know he has scored three or four very good and valuable goals recently but he should be doing a lot more if he is the world class player he is reputed to be.

Round of applause?

Carlo also brought in Godfrey. He is improving the team. We will get stronger. It won't happen overnight.

Last night, we looked good but barbless. Gomes would have been my Man of the Match if I could see past Ben Godfrey who is immense! I wouldn't swap him for pre-Pickford Virgil van Dijk!!!

Virginia is a prospect and Calvert-Lewin is the best all round footballer at the club. With service, he will be better than Harry Kane. Get decent reinforcements on the flanks and at playmaker and we'll give these big clubs a scare next season.

Re Ian Edwards, I disagree with a lot of what he says but I defend absolutely his right to say it. He's probably a massive blue and has the cojones to stick to his views. It's a forum – have a good Sunday, Ian – don't let us Happy Clappers wear you down. UTFT!

I think they would be roaring them on but, once the 1st goal went in on 84 mins, there would've been a mass exodus to the pub, because everybody would have known it was game, set and match.

Carlo sets the structure when we need to get back into defensive shape, which worked a treat. Also, he'll say how to attack when we break.

Remember at school or club level, even in a defensive game against a better team, the manager still wants you to go forward when you have the ball. As a NMumber 10, I might have to drop in more when defending, but when the ball comes to me the manager absolutely wants me to have an end product and not stay in the defensive shape.

When I see a full back receive the ball and they can play a wall pass and move up the line, then everyone in the team tells them to go up to the half-way line, not stay in the defensive position.

The reason we didn't attack more often when we had the ball is simple: Man City are good at stopping us going forwards and so we couldn't do it often. Not because of Carlo's tactics, just that they have physical players that close you down really quickly. City are good on the ball, and extremely good at closing you down.

As an example, no-one is knocking it forward and running into space against Walker. Or Rodri or Fernandinho are man mountains and very mobile. Most teams can't hurt City, so again not because of their tactics too. Some teams have tried to set higher up the pitch and still lost.

Having said that, our summer signings have bridged some of this gap, and this summer the recruitment team, scouts and stats people need to pull out some more Ben Godfrey-type filled quality lists of players we can bring in and coach.

Someone mentioned £200M spent on the team. Carlo has spent £67M of which £47M was available last night: Godfrey and Allan. He's signed 4 excellent additions (5 if you include King – which I don't) of which 2 were on the pitch.

He's not infallible – I wasn't happy with the approach to West Ham, Newcastle or Fulham – but he's improving this team beyond dispute.

Clap clap clap clap etc

Obviously we'll never know, but we had the players to do it, as no doubt Michael Keane would have been brought on to shore up the defence even more. All hypothetical I know, but the mind does wonder a bit. I thought, like I bet most did, that we scored far too early in the derby, but it was something to hang on to.

This has definitely been an up and down season. We played some good stuff early doors, have been top of the table, been around the top six places most of the season, and do you know what, it's the current top two who have knocked us out of both cup competitions. No shame in that, even if some think differently.

The idea of a cup game is to get through, and if it means stifling the opposition, then hitting them on the break and scoring the winner then so be it. I don't buy this theory that it's best to “attack, attack, attack” and end up losing 4 or 5-0 but at least we had a go! In my opinion, Carlo set the team up exactly right. To stifle the most potent attacking team in the league, Europe and possibly the world. We fell short by six minutes!!

Europe is still very much on the cards for next season. Three of the current top four will be in the cup semi-finals and I'd wager two of them will be in the final. Man City will win the carabao cup so we are looking at league placings for a European spot dropping as low as possibly 7th.

So let the dust settle on a disappointing result, but not performance, pull our socks up and have a final big push for Europe. Do you know what, our biggest challenge left this season is: the final game away at City! Every game is a challenge obviously, but Man City is the biggest.

The difference was the bench, they brought on De Bruyne and Mahrez, we brought on Iwobi. I was surprised Davies wasn't brought on to freshen a tired midfield. But I couldn't fault the team for effort.

Regarding the Live Forum, I stopped using it because of all the negativity from the likes of Jonathan Tasker and Ian Edwards, constantly hounding our 'dinosaur manager' as he calls him, and Gomes – did he praise his performance tonight? But no-one should be insulted or bad language used.

We need to be ruthless and ask is Sigurdsson's and now Gomes's recent upturn in form after 4 years of nothing (injury, I know, I know) enough to keep them in the summer re build? If the answer is Yes, then another top 8 and nearly cup run is the limit.

Same with the goalie: after recent form, now Virginia may be the answer and Pickford put up for sale (with Richarlison) can generate more funds. As long as it's not the 'Everton Way' — and no-one is lined up.

The rhetoric directed at the likes of Davies, Gomes, Bernard, Sigurdsson and Iwobi this season has been truly offensive. This type of behaviour is now being directed at fellow contributors and doesn't reflect well on ToffeeWeb.

I can't believe the nonsense espoused by some on here but the last thing I would contemplate would be to attack them. Question them, yes; challenge them, yes; but the use of certain words to attack them, never!

I do think the moderators should be more proactive in maintaining an acceptable level of debate and discussion.

On the subject of what we need, I still think we need a ready-made top-class centre-back. I know this probably isn't a priority, but I still think we are missing something in there with the 4 we have. I'm not the manager, I don't know if playing a higher line is in his mind, but that would be me. Koulibaly from Napoli? Alongside Godfrey, plenty of pace, aggression and also a willingness to gallop forward when on.

I see there are rumours of Pickford not playing again this season. If true, the young keeper has an opportunity.

"Ian is a miserable git who can't wait to slag the team off... You fucking make my blood boil... always the victim are you sure your not a red shite... just loves us loosing, he really does... your a fucking cock... fuck off knobber"

That person has since briefly apologized but there are quite a few others whose intolerance of certain viewpoints certainly crosses a line.

Our old friend "negativity" seems to be the justification cited for this aggressive abusiveness but, as far as I could see, Ian Edwards was mostly just describing what he saw and contrasting that with what he would like to have seen.

What I don't understand is why he was rounded upon and abused when he had abused no-one – merely voiced an alternative viewpoint from the mainstream?

Has he been missing because of his house being burgled? Which would be an injury in itself I suppose, as your mind probably becomes “disturbed” and you are unable to concentrate. The official club website lists his injury as “Unknown”.

Paul Hewitt, got me thinking, but maybe it's for another thread. How can we have a weak squad when we've spent £500 million? We all know the answer: this is a collection of 4 managers, and it got me thinking about our academy. Kids have different coaches every season, and even if they go off the same programme, they will all have their own ideas.

I was hoping Brands was going to revolutionise our academy, because it can be done, but it's all about the coaching and how you teach the kids imo.

Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison don't compliment each other, but neither does the split striker role, which leaves them to far apart to build up proper combination between the pair.

I'd sooner play with Calvert-Lewin, but maybe Richarlison's movement is better, which was the case when we won at Anfield, where we played very similar to last night, only we won.

Some of the games we won I think most would agree we got lucky with some of them. A positive; it's good to win when you play bad. We do get sucked in.

Someone mentioned the other week "We have three winnable games coming up." I said we would be lucky to get 3 pts from them. I'm on track: Burnley beat us. I said 9th or 10th finish; Everton will not let me down...

Derek Thomas asks was that a malapropism or a spoonerism... or just me not paying attention?

On here, any kind of improvement means he's now immune from any analysis that might question his overall game.

He gives fantastic effort and holds play up well when he's isolated but you are bang on and Richarlison is the same. I love his effort too and lack of respect for opposition but his composure stinks.

How can people bang on about tactics after being outplayed? It's futile and surely them same tactics stopped us being 4 down at half-time when we were outplayed.

Our first shot on goal probably gave Man City more confidence than us. Could we have gone gung ho and frightened them? No chance. Who does?

Again, Everton are miles behind due to poor recruitment and selling our best players for 20 years. Nobody but the unreliable James has come in with the quality we lost and we have had 4 years to replace the likes of Lukaku and Barkley. We haven't even got a player that can move with the ball like Barkley in his best form.

We need a top player in almost every position to even be a threat. About 9 of them positions are still vacant...

I'd hope that against the likes of Crystal Palace, Brighton, and Sheffield Utd we might be a bit more positive – but we tend to come unstuck against these teams, so I'm not sure he will.

The exceptions may be any games that James is available for as he seems to be the only player capable of creativity.

Dom has scored 14 goals in 25 starts.
What is it you are looking for from him?

We did well without some key players and if it also helps to decide that we don't need to splash £6M on Olsen because we at long last have a good young keeper ready to come in, then so much the better.

On the Live Forum debate, it can be savage at times with unnecessary abuse, albeit I have had to bite my tongue on a number of occasions where a couple of the posters involved here have been concerned.

Ultimately it is like being at the match and having a loudmouth swearing and constantly abusing our own players. We can walk out of the ground if we want to but we stick it out because we want to watch the game. With the Live Forum, anyone can log out if they don't like it but that means that it becomes uncomfortable for other posters who are a bit more civilised in what they say.

Having to read some comments is not pleasant and is it being spoiled for some? Is it a fit and proper place for our lady members? Would I want my wife to be reading some of the posts from yesterday? Would I want my daughter to become involved in it?
I log on to keep up to date with a game if I can't watch it myself. I find it informative and amusing but would it be better if posters watched their more colourful language a little, and refrained from picking on certain others?

Surely the best way to silence the more extreme posters who seem to deliberately (and successfully) wind others up to the point of some severe abuse is to totally ignore them and refuse to get involved in debate with them?

I mentioned about Liverpool. They don't necessarily have better young players than us. But they have young players who understand the system they are being asked to play in therefore slot in easily.

I do not believe there has been any joined-upness between Unsworth's U23s and the first team, so a lot of our younger players can struggle when called up.

You're right, it's not just the scattergun transfer strategy (cough) that is having to be undone here, it is 4 managers worth of "philosophy" being unpicked. This is being done, unfortunately having to use the remnants of the patchwork of tools (players) that were inherited.

Bamford has been involved in more goals and hasn't made the England squad so he obviously has doubters.

The manager told him not to get involved in the play and it's helped his goal return but progressively he's got to find ways of creating his own goals and he's showing no signs of it.

Them tap-ins don't come often in big games, do they? I support the club overall so, if there's a reason I believe we need to improve to beat teams, I am stating it.

What you say is not entirely accurate. Hands up, I often come on after a game (far to often I guess) and, in no uncertain terms, attack the team collectively. I do not and never have, attacked individual players using the type of personal invective that Ian Edwards describes @225.

To be fair I have, in the past, said some very mean stuff about Duncan Ferguson, which I subsequently accepted was totally unfair and unreservedly apologized for.

Anyway, for me, last night was different from an angry supporter commenting on the collective efforts of a team. You may disagree and that's fair enough.

I have always argued that ToffeeWeb is like a bar where there is plenty of robust debate. I have always argued against censorship of it and I am glad the moderators didn't intervene. We should sort it out ourselves which is what we are doing. The Live Forum is kind of like the straw and sawdust area of the pub.

I don't go on it to comment during the match due to a combination of poor keyboard skills and being wrapped in a state of nervous agitation. I sometimes look in at half-time or full-time to get others' take on the game.

When I looked last night I saw a lot of personal stuff directed at another Evertonian, including him being told to fuck off and not come back. I scrolled back wondering what in the name of God he had said to deserve this. Insulted Carlo's wife? Called Carlo a cunt?

What he had actually said was something like "We are going out because we never gave it a go". Now, I disagree with that. I thought we gave it a really good go and I was proud of our efforts. Somehow, that fairly innocuous post appeared to break the camel's back and what followed, seemed to me, to become normally moderate voices joining each other to indulge in back-slapping "let's outdo each other" bullying, to drive a fellow Blue off the site.

One moderate voice starts it off and legitimizes the rest. The Live Forum is a bar with the sharperst, wittiest most passionate customers in town. No need to pick on someone who doesn't agree. Everyone is entitled to defend and stand by what they think. I stand by what I said last night.

Last night just highlighted the gulf between ourselves and the very best team in the Premier League, so a lot of work for Carlo and his coaches to do over the next couple of years to help us bridge that gap.

I just wonder if a fully fit James might have made a difference last night, as for me we lack quality in the final third of the pitch. Richarlison works very hard and he always looks more of a threat when he has James slipping the ball through for him to run onto. There is very rarely any link-up play between him and Calvert-Lewin and I think this is the area we most need to improve if we are to hope to compete with the top 4. You have to wonder what is going on with James, when he last played we were told it was only a minor injury and would be back very soon, but hasn't played since the derby game. Plenty of rumours that he cant settle here, lets hope thats not true.

I think it will be very important that we qualify for Europe otherwise trying to attract the quality of player we need to help us progress might be hampered if we don't qualify for Europe.

When we go out of anything – and it's always more prominent with the Ing-er-lund crowd when the national team get knocked out of anything – things get toxic amongst a certain element of fans very quickly.

Traditionally, the manager or the board come in for the abuse, less often the players. Last night in the Live Forum, you could almost bet it was going to end in the fans fighting among themselves. It was purely logical. We're Everton, but we're playing the hottest and one of the best resourced clubs in the world. We're undermanned, even though the owner has lost eyewatering amounts of money.

The gaffer just oversaw the end of a 20-year Anfield hoodoo and managed to keep us in this game until the very sharp end, even he couldn't realistically be blamed for the result either. We just ran into the wrong team at the wrong time; and they'll likely go on and win the thing.

There's never any shame going out to the winners in my view.

I logged on and anticipated the reaction in the Live Forum. Perhaps I should have said something; but probably not. At the end of the day, getting beat was not unexpected, and the manner of it was not particularly disappointing. But having this historic trophy drought being officially extended, as I said, it has its own effects.

The psychologists would call last night's behavior "transference". I'm with Jay Wood the entire way on this one. Gutted.

Some players appear taller than listed (always figured Lallana at more than 5'-8" and Aaron Ramsey at over 5'-9", then there's the Luke Shaw's of this world masquerading as 6'-1"! My arse!

I also had to laugh when I read Graham Souness referring to Mane as a 6-footer. 🤓

I mentioned a couple of months ago that the pairing of Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison does not seem to work. I do think Richarlison has more movement than Calvert-Lewin but his overall football mind seems not there.

There was a run of play in the first half where Richarlison received the ball near their penalty area. As he controlled it, a player ran to his left and he should have played him in but didn't; he turned back and it fizzled out. If he had, a cross would have come in and he or Calvert-Lewin could maybe have got on the end of it.

Europe qualification was the stated primary ambition by Carlo. We are currently seventh with a game in hand on a few, two points off fourth if we win that.

If we finish sixth or above I will still rate this season as being a progressive one and then next season we can make further strides. We're in the mix and it's all still to play for and no teams we face now are near the quality of Manchester City.

Apart from maybe Doucouré, we need a new midfield. One with pace and preferably players who chip in with goals. Allan and Davies are decent squad men. Rodriquez is a top player but he is a crock. Bernard, Iwobi, Gomes and Sigurdsson need offloading asap – especially Iwobi.

Our defence is pretty solid so I think we are okay in that department. Another striker and a good wide man wouldn't go amiss.

All-in-all, we probably need another 5 players. The big problem will be offloading the shite that's been accumulated over the last 4 seasons. Not much to ask...

Tony, If we can't do it - much rather them than the RS.

I can go along with that, but it's 27 years since we won anything. Why oh why did we not try to win this?

I get the argument that, if we pushed more men forward, we would have left ourselves open to a hammering from a very good side, but this was a Dr Pepper moment: What was the worst that could happen?

We get knocked out? Doesn't matter if you lose 1-0 or 6-0 in the FA Cup
– the outcome is still the same. The journey still ends. This was (as somebody above has intimated) a free swing.

We have about 10 games to salvage something from this season. A season that has been marred by brain-numbingly boring anti-football. Most of the teams we face have less talented squads. There can be no more excuses for Zombie football. Every team we face will have had their injury problems too. They will all be feeling the effects of a long season.

I really don't want to hear any more lame excuses for a football philosophy that prohibits players getting forward in numbers. One which looks to spoil rather than create.

The cowardly approach has gotten us nowhere. Let's ditch it. Let's go out for every remaining game with the sole intention of winning them!

Both players are our biggest assets. I am not one for stats but in a recent match the commentator mentioned that we have scored the most goals per chances created. Doesn't that dispell the lack of quality and highlight the lack of creativity?

I would like them to play more often up top together to have an informed opinion. It can't be easy playing infront of a midfield like ours.

I just don't think Carlo is capable of playing like that. Isn't it all about that 'catenaccio' rubbish with him? — "A highly organised and effective backline defence focused on nullifying opponents' attacks and preventing goal-scoring opportunities."

I think, given the obvious limitations in our squad, it's the only way he thinks they can play. So the answer to your final wish would then be a resounding No.

If you look at the balance of the team as a whole I think we'd be more successful with a crafty skillful striker who could twist and turn, fool defenders with trickery and play in DCL. Ideally I would add this missing element, rather than reluctantly replacing Richy. But I don't think playing both Richy and DCL together as out and out strikers is working.

One thing I will not excuse however is 26 years without silverware is disgusting, embarrassing and utterly unacceptable for a club like Everton. Club needs to hang their heads in shame. I'm 24 years old and I honestly cannot see us lift a trophy while I'm alive. One final in 25 years? Nil Satis Nisi optimum should nowhere near be on the crest. More like "we had a go but fell short"

Lived on the mentality of "gunfight with a knife" attitude for far too long. And it's almost surrender football. Massive summer ahead now we fuck this up we're done.

There is no perfect striker I guess but Lukaku has scored 42 goals in 62 games for Inter.

Yes mate but how many of them did he scuff in?

But overall the entertainment level has been very poor. Almost every team in the Premier League plays more entertaining football than us and sometimes I find it hard to watch the whole 90 minutes of some games, especially at home, and every Evertonian I know agrees with me.

We just have to improve the way we pass the ball to each other, it's basic stuff but frustratingly so often missing at Everton.

Finding the right players to improve us will be incredibly difficult, I hope we sign more good young players like Godfrey that seems to be the way forward. Players who are nearing the 30-year-old stage usually get injured easily and run out of steam about January.

Having said that, we have brought in some dreadful youngsters, eg, Iwobi. It's very important whomever is brought in is good enough technically and must have a winning mentality, that will be crucial to any future improvement.

Now we have an owner with money who is playing catch-up. He has hired one of the best managers in world football who has managed some of the most exciting and successful teams in history.

The reason we are playing defensive safety first football is because Ancelotti knows full well that our playing staff has limited ability. He is doing the best he can with a team of mostly non-top-six-calibre players.

Top-six players, as we all know, play to a high-level, week-in & week-out, and that includes playing in in mid -eek European games as well. It is imperative that we qualify for Europe to attract these players. I am not sure if we will.

I would like to see us do more of what we done at the beginning of the season, but as many learned observers of the game pointed out, we conceded a lot (but won), and then got found out with teams starting to exploit space between our defenders and midfield. So the manager changed it.

We are unfortunately having to set up to suit the players we currently have. Credit to the manager for doing so as it has kept us in a healthy league position with a lot still to play for.

The summer is huge. With the right acquisitions, we can change from playing this current set up on more occasions. I'm not saying that we still won't have to do this in certain games to stay in it.

Like Darren, I wanted us to have a go, perhaps not until the second half, but we sat so deep, it made counter-attack more difficult. This team is capable of playing differently, at Anfield and at home to Spurs, we had short patches of lethal play.

We are instructed to play conservatively and then, when we play "lesser "sides, we are so unused to expansive play that we lose our way.

This kind of football is fine when you get the results. As Sheffield Utd have discovered, one-nil wins can easily become one-nil defeats when you are doing so much defending.

And look through his Inter goals and assists mate there is hardly a scuff involved.

He beat Chelsea on his own for us in a cup game and scored 14 in his first season at 20/21.

I don't even want to compare him to Calvert Lewin i'd just like to see Calvert Lewin assert more aggression and use his feet better to become a top striker.

The 'jogo bonito' may come with a more talented squad, but teams can be successful playing functional football – Tuchel has turned Chelsea around by doing exactly that with far better players than we have at our disposal.

We were 0-0 and in the game for 84 minutes and I honestly don't think that would have been the case by trying to play a more expansive game with that team and bench.

Tongue in cheek mate.
Lukaku got constantly ripped on here "ah but it was a scuffed shot he scored with"

Someone said above about the young lads coming in are not schooled in first-team methods. That's Carlos fault. As the main guy his philosophy and coaching methods should be enacted through all the levels of the club. Over to you Rhino. The Charles Dickens era is well and truly over.

Carlo was the manager when we signed, Allan, James, Doucouré and Godfrey, but he has said he wouldn't have signed Doucouré and he had no knowledge of Godfrey but was glad Brands brought him to the club.

The last two players Doucouré and Godfrey have been very good signings, not sure Allan, through injury and James, through injury and going missing, even in his good games, have been value for money, so I'd say Carlo has to be better with his homework when he brings in new players next summer.

Rodriguez is our best attacking midfielder, but he has had fitness issues. Until we get players in who are better options, we simply can't play an open attractive game.

But I guess the counter to that is you're still in the game as we were last night as opposed to being finished after 20 minutes. Remember those high lines at Anfield in recent seasons? Beaten in half an hour only to have to resort to damage limitation. I just couldn't see where and how we were going to threaten them last night, so holding out admirably as we did for so long seemed a forlorn hope.

So I'm on the fence on this one. I see the validity of both points of view.

Thomas, the main criticisms, if I recall, were lazy and poor touch. Well, I've played with enough stroppy strikers to know a lot of them aren't the hardest grafters. Lineker was a bang average footballer. But he scored goals. If a striker is consistently bagging 20 goals a season, he's doing his job. Lukaku was. I think we've been tarnished by years of continuously trying to find the next Marcus Bent. We even eventually converted the likes of Andy Johnson and Jelavic into corner flag chasers. Who cares if they only bag 7 goals a season as long as they graft? Something Ancelotti has instructed Dominic not to do. Lukaku was having none of that!!

The straw that broke the camel's back for me was Calvert-Lewin resorting to flicks. I do think, since the England call-up, he is not attempting to improve on his game or follow Ancelotti's coaching. He does not look like getting a shot on target, never mind scoring.

Cantona resorted to flicks in his final days with Man Utd and was gone the following season. The second commentator on HesGoal picked up on this in Calvert-Lewin's play and also on his wrong positioning due to poor effort on crosses. I thought the same thought before he mentioned it on both occasions.

In the case of Richarlison, he does have natural shooting ability, and Ma City defenders gave him special attention, to prevent him from getting a shot away. His final-third play has improved, particularly due to better passing.

Calvert-Lewin did improve and has the goal tally to prove it, but he has fallen back recently. He did see off other strikers for his position through hard work, but he needs to continue.

Richarlison does have ability, which is a good start, to build on, which he will under Ancelotti.

He dropped Keane because he wanted more aggression, but probably played Gomes and Sigurdson, before Tom Davies, because they've got more quality, but I'm not sure they've got enough for what's needed.

Build the defence around Godfrey's pace, the midfield around the energy of Doucoure, and go and bring in some really energetic footballers, to go alongside the players our manager wants to keep.

I agree completely, he needs to bring in attacking players with pace, especially out wide. I don't know what will happen with James in the summer, but we need to replace Sigurdsson, Delph and possibly Iwobi, but unfortunately he's on a longer contract.

I honestly don't know why the referee didn't blow for a “foot up” by Mahrez on Mina. Whether there was contact or not, it still forced Mina to adjust himself to avoid any contact. Definitely a foul for dangerous play in my opinion.

Oliver went to blow then didn't. I could understand it if it was a foot up by Mina on Mahrez as no doubt the advantage would have been played.

Also Siggy wasnt strong enough on the first goal.
Laporte just brushed him aside.

I do however see some substance in your point because he should probably 'make sure' in that instance and keep possession maybe?

I am all for players trying something different and the element of suprise can hurt defences but the odds of a flick coming off in attacks that are few and far between must be slim.

Our possession isn't great when the team is playing well and too often, passes are played behind the running man.

Gomes looked well switched on yesterday but I find hes ok against teams that are not going to go crazy physical on him.

City are neat even in the challenge and it suited his game but his passing lacks conviction or purpose.

His shot over the bar, where was the purpose on it? he just seemed content to make contact.

Too many players are short of what we need on the day, Fernandinho is 36 and he floated through us time after time.

Laporte was allowed by our forwards to carry the ball 50 yards and I haven't seen it mentioned. Criminal stuff from our players in a game where they tried a lot.

We rarely get men around Dominic though, and being asked to keep the ball, with defenders behind him and midfielders closing the space in front of him, has got to be frustrating for Dominic.

But if he kept hold of the ball, he might have won us a couple of free-kicks in dangerous positions, even though the kid worked very hard and had to scrap for nearly everything that came his way last night.

Had we pushed up from the start in both games, that would have created space for City.

I thought Carlo got his tactics spot on in both games with City.

Same happened at Goodison v Man Utd, went two 2-1 down, we chase an equaliser and get caught with the sucker punch third goal.

Firstly it was another home defeat folks!.

Even Cheltenham gave City a tougher game!.

The hate levelled at Ian Edwards on the Live Forum was bordering on kopite behaviour,sad to see...sigh.

My team would've been... 4-4-1-1

Virginia
Coleman Keane Godfrey Nkounkou
Richarlison Davies Allan Digne
Bernard
Calvert-Lewin

We are short of quality players which would make a vast difference, even if only a couple were added, and we had our best available the dividends would pay off and results would improve too. Though I don't think personally the Premiership is the place to try different permutations, but maybe there is another agenda, and if I am wrong, I would sure like to know what is happening.

It almost beggars belief that players can be made to look like they have only just taken up the game last week, yet a week later, they are playing like proper footballers.

"Holgate did not have the best of games, losing out on four of his duels and failing to block any shots on his goal, while also recording fewer touches (36) than his own goalkeeper in Joao Virginia and losing possession of the ball no fewer than 11 times in total in the game, earning him a measly 6.2 overall rating on Sofascore, the third-lowest out of any Everton player to have set foot on the pitch."

I remember Calvert Lewin coming back after the Summer in Silvas first season. He obviously had worked hard over the Summer and Niasse who seemed to have turned the corner having previously played for Silva disappointingly had not.

Calvert Lewin goal tally is the result of hard work, but he really needs to work even harder to get that Clinical dangerous sharpness, rather than being fumbled out of possession and being in the wrong position. He is working hard as you describe to get the opportunity, and maybe needs to improve his teamwork. I am beginning to see the England call up as a poison chalice for Calvert Lewin, thinking he has finally made it and not putting in the work effort he needs to. Southgate selections appears media inspired to keep him in his job, rather than progress. When hes gone it will be different.

Calvert Lewin does not have the natural ability of the hardworking Richarlison, who often gets special attention from the opposition. . King isn't up to the necessary competition that Calvert Lewin needs, being relegated to wing p!ay by Ancelotti and probably will be gone at the end of the season.

Ancelotti one touch suggestion was a attempt to get Calvert Lewin in position to score, expecting him to built on that. As Everton progress Ancelotti will expect that as a given.

Soren (356), A little over the top in your response to Holgate's performance. I am also not a huge fan of Holgate and he may not have the innate skills to play in the Premier League. However, yesterday we attempted to play a team game and no player deserved to be pilloried, even if it is obvious that some players were better than others. To say he should never wear the Everton shirt again along with a whole pile of !!!!!!!!! marks is a bit too much.

Just as I would be equally wrong in suggesting that you should never dare to put your suggestions on ToffeeWeb!!! Also, I sincerely hope I am proved wrong about Holgate and he turns the corner to become a fine player. To do that, he will need to wear the Everton shirt again.

90min.com: Leicester City's incredible recruitment

If someone can put a working link up, due to my lack of technical skills, well worth a read:

Everton pulled back from brink of FFP disaster by Usmanov with £30m deal

Lower League players are the key to all future success... the "Real" boss knew it too!

We desperately needed a first half goal, something to hold onto. Mina's header and Richarlison's overhead nearly provided it, small margins make the difference.

I'm not convinced by Mina, and thought he was poor for both goals.

I'm also not convinced by Richarlison's footballing intelligence. He scores some good goals and works hard, but the rest of his play is pretty poor.

Farewell to this season's FA Cup, it's been a blast, starting for me in September. Don't forget, whoever eventually wins the tournament won't have won as many matches in it as Marine.

It bothers me less that Liverpool, Man Utd and now, totally due to finances, Chelsea and Man City outperform us. In the case of the former two, they have outperformed us for 30 years.

I struggle with Leicester and Spurs, who never win anything, outperforming us. Rogers isn't buying these players at Leicester nor has he. So why or what are doing wrong? Because, to a man, Leicester are better than us.

What's wrong at this club?

Everton must have the least forwards in their squad, then only Rodriguez and Sigurdson, and this is something that has got to change, along with a few other positions as well.

Everton final third play has been poor going back to Silva and maybe beyond. In Silva's tenure they had the poorest pass completion rate in the Premiership. I use to think that Silva thought that everyone should shoot from midfield upwards on sight of goal. If not on pass to the wing. James has improved that, but part of the problem could beb the positioning and runs of those recieving the pass and there resulting availablity for a pass. Back to goal laying of passes suits most Premier League defences. They will even turn it to their advantage by pushing up and compacting midfield.

One thing that caused City real problems was the distribution of Virginia. Man City only got the ball once all game from his Kick outs, using either foot. Any other time they got it they really had to work hard to contain the Everton player they where marking and 90 percent of the time Everton retained possession. Neither Pickford or Olsen are capable of that. In Pickford's case he is lucky to get 20 percent and Olsen is only slightly better. Virginia did not kick the ball out for a opposition throw once all game.

Our forwards should have made more of that. Everton actually had more shots on target than City. Calvert Lewin had none, as I recollect.

Danny #364
Sorry, Carlo was brought up in Italy and it will definitely be like that. He as much as said it after the Burnley match. I wasn't surprised by the tactics and glad it looked workable. At least you will now have stock in to cope.

We beat Leicester 2-0 at their place, and dominated them with ease.

Dear me, it's sad when some people keep hailing Leicester (fucking Leicester!!) as some sort of role model.

Oh, and by the way, if DCL had missed that sitter that Vardy missed, there'd be people on here proclaiming that DCL is not a natural finisher, and that Vardy would have scored. Get a grip!!!

Leicester are a million miles ahead of us, the way they play the game is at least in keeping with the modern era, whereas our style has barely evolved in three decades, cross the ball to the big target man.

It's easy bemoaning injuries but look at other clubs, Leicester themselves are missing Maddison, Barnes and Justin right now.

Stan

Leicester are most definitely NOT a mid-table club my friend, they once were granted, but they are now an upwardly mobile club that actually believes it belongs to mix with the elite.

Christ knows how we knew who had a good game 20+ years ago. Oh - hang on we had eyes and a brain.

Leicester are in a run of good form, and it's not sensible to extrapolate from that and exaggerate them just because you're disappointed that Everton are not currently in a run of good form.

I watched the game, it was like a footballing chess match, and I really enjoyed it even though Everton lost, but I honestly can't remember a time when DCL, should have done better, except for the flick you mentioned earlier.

Guardiola praised Everton, but said it was nine defenders and two on the counter attack, and always the long ball to Lewin, and without watching the game again, I thought DCL and Richarlison, worked very hard throughout, and I wouldn't criticise either of them for yesterday, although I thought out of the two, Richarlison could have been better in possession at times.

It's easy from the sidelines though, but not so often when you're out on the pitch, and especially when most of the best passes you receive are from your goalkeeper!

I'm not condoning what's happened, but look at the money these “masters who make the rules” have made just setting up companies for friends and families to benefit, just off the back of covid alone?

It looks to me as though the Tories would love to have a piece of Liverpool, the gateway to America, and a waterfront unrivalled on these shores, once the regeneration begins!

Cue the Music to 'No Hiding Place' with Chief Inspector Tom Lockhart on his case!

Man the barricades

Don't worry, I think Carlo knows who we need at the right price, that will just add another quality piece to the jig-saw!

And I don't mean resurrecting Stuart Barlow!

You say Chelsea have at least 10 players in their academy who could get into Everton's first team. Can you provide some names please, as I'd like to Google them and maybe try and catch some footage of them playing?

You must be a really keen follower of the Chelsea academy players.

I didn't say we are a better team. I said that both us and Leicester City are midtable. It's as simple as that.

People making daft assertions about Leicester being something to aim for is no doubt simply a knee-jerk manifestation of Evertonian frustration that we are midtable. Aiming for another team that is also midtable is simply daft. Our aim is to be at the top, not midtable like Leicester.

I'm sure Carlo knows what's needed – I'm looking forward to the next two seasons – and I wouldn't swap Carlo for Brendan.

I don't know what Gbamin brings to the table but we need an energetic playmaker in midfield. Every team seems to have one except us. James and Sigurdsson are playmakers but not dynamic.
Ndidi is the sort of player we need. Drink water? Nah – only when the ale runs out.

If we camp in our own half, the forwards are isolated. If our midfield is camped on the edge of our own box, there is a huge gap between them and the forwards. If our midfield bombs forward to surround the strikers, yet our defence remains camped, we leave an exposed pocket between midfield and defence.

We need to play as a unit; as we did last night. But if we want to be more attacking, we need to do so as a unit and play a higher line. We don't have the personnel throughout the team to that right now.

Man the barricades? All you'll need for that lot are Self Repeating Feather Dusters, and a pile of brown envelopes! 😋

Loftus-Cheek - homegrown
Tammy Abraham – homegrown
Andreas Christensen – homegrown
Fikayo Tomori – homegrown
Mason Mount - Under-21
Callum Hudson-Odoi - Under-21
Billy Gilmour - Under-21
Reece James - Under-21
Kai Havertz - Under-21

https://www.squawka.com/en/chelsea-loanees-2020-21-season-clubs/

Everton just have one player since 2016 who has established himself in the Everton squad.

It's not about the results that count, but how many players can get promoted to the first team.

The academy should be producing players for the first team – not just about spending money on transfers that certain Everton fans are getting carried away with, by believing that Chelsea is all about money. It's not. They have a huge academy programme. Man City's academy is not producing 'fruit' – they have to spend money, but Chelsea not so much.

Our academy is not producing right now, nor has it been for the past decade or so.

No coincidence they accompany Man City and Chelsea in the semis; on that evidence, they really are near their standard and light years ahead of us at present

Before someone whines – does that make Southampton top-notch as well? The answer is an emphatic "No" because at least one lucky knobhead team always reaches the semis.

Football is a billion-dollar industry now, and every club should be bringing their own players through, otherwise it's a total failure having academies in the first place.

Their recruitment has been bang-on since they came back up. God knows how many times they have been relegated but to dismiss them like nobodies is mad. They've won 3 trophies since we last won one.

Steavey, you're naming players Chelsea nicked from the continent when they were 14. Hardly "homegrown", is it? These kids will be on more money than our 18-year-olds. That's the difference. Imagine how well Chelsea look after their families after taking them away.

Chelsea are getting the balance right between buying players and producing their own. But strangely, both Everton and Man City are not producing quality players from their academies.

A lot has to do with scouting for young talent, then coaching them well to be good enough to 'break in' to the first team.

I read somewhere in the last year or two, that at one stage they had over 40 players out on loan. That is just insane!

I'm sure they've brought through many players from their academy and sold them at a profit. Again, nothing wrong with that, because, as Tony says, football is now a billion-dollar industry, it's no longer a sport but a business.

Everton have to be in for these talents if they can't see an opening where they are.

The vast majority are nowhere near good enough but the dads believe the hype and think their kids are the next David Beckham cos they score hat-tricks in games against enthusiastic but crap overweight gamers and reluctant dads' projects, and pay fees for a kit and weekly training sessions at Cobham.

Thing is, any really decent prospects actually do get filtered up. It's a monster and the dads pay for it. I've met some of the Chelsea “scouts” and they know less about football than Pete Sampara or Tony Marsh... but it's a big deal for the kids – and especially their dads – to be “scouted for Chelsea”.

Chelsea have a much bigger catchment area and are a glamour club for young kids growing up around Greater London. Most of their academy players get loaned out or sold to other Premier League clubs. They spend a fortune on bringing players in so not a good comparison.

It is only a couple of years since we won the U23 PL2, so the problem is not the academy — it is bringing those players up to Premier League standard that is the problem.

The amount of young local players Chelsea have brought into their first team from their academy is putting Everton to shame.

Everton has produced just one player since 2016 from the academy, and he has difficulty keeping his place in the first team when other players are fit to play.

If Chelsea's format for attracting younger talent into their academies is successful, why don't Man City and Everton follow suit?

If you go back in time to the 1960s, Everton brought at least one or two young players from the youth team into the first team every season. Now, there is none. So has local talent dried up?

I thought Brands was going to come and produce an Ajax academy at Everton; they got banned from signing players, but it's the better coaches that help make the better players... something is obviously wrong with the system somewhere?

We had 5 in the Under-20 World Cup winners side a few years ago, and only Calvert-Lewin really progressed, possibly because these players needed to be playing regular first-team football, after proving they were ready for the next stage of their development.

Having B Teams playing in the lower leagues makes a lot of sense in this respect, because 19-21 seems to be where a lot of talent gets lost nowadays... or maybe it's always been this way?

Mark Murphy; experienced similar in my coaching experience with Hayes and then latterly Hayes & Yeading in West London. Rich catchment area for Chelsea, QPR, Fulham and Watford.

Watford in particular were (possibly still are) massively guilty of sucking every half-decent player in the area into the false dream of being on their books. The reality being they are surrounding one or two real gems they believe will make it with other good players. The majority of those lads get spat out of the system, unfortunately.

The point I made earlier, and Paul A Smith also alludes to it, is true. The "homegrown" tag is exploited. The reality is that "homegrown" just means they've been at the club and in the country from a certain age. It doesn't mean they are from Ealing, Cobham or Richmond-upon-Thames. Equally likely they come from a Paris suburb equivalent.

Bottom line, they've done better than us, but the term "homegrown" is loose.

But I totally agree (as said earlier); it's a balance between developing young potential and buying proven experience.

Man Utd have always been rich and way more of a lure for young prodigies or stars from abroad. Then came the Ruskie at Stamford Bridge, who has a bottomless pit of money, followed by the big Middle East conglomerates who sponsor Man City.

These three teams alone could probably field second elevens for the whole season and still finish 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

Spurs and Arsenal still have bigger pulling power on players than Everton; Leicester are probably the only team worthy of any accolades with what they have done with so little at their disposal compared to the rest.

Everton, of course now with Moshiri, are starting to attract a few players but they don't have the depth as yet, as we have seen this season, and certainly have some players under-performing far too often.

It's hard to predict what will happen at the end of this season regarding the Everton squad but it's for certain it needs more strength, especially in midfield, where they always look second best in most games.

They could conceivably still finish 5th for what it is worth... but, whenever we say something a little optimistic, they blow it. It will seem even harder to keep our position as it is now without those missing midfielders.

You can't compare Everton's academy to theirs as Everton are on the doorstep of two more of the Sky favourites; young prospects will choose them over Everton. Over the years, Everton have produced international players and youth players in their squads. Rooney was a one-off and I don't see any other clubs who have produced anyone better, and the problem is, Everton are not successful enough or, for the past number of years, stable enough for the young prospects wanting to stay.

Yes, you are correct, but they were winning things with some very good players such as Zola before Ambromovic arrived.

Man City were the team that had won nothing since the League Cup in 1976.

We are 5 years in to Moshiri's tenure as I understand?

Now I appreciate, these things are unpredictable and you can never compare apples and oranges. But in those 5 years, the guy has has tried, failed, tried again, but is still learning. Not that he needs some mortal like me to judge him. He's the Billionaire businessman, not me.

20 years ago, Manchester City got relegated. With our very own Joe Royle as manager. We haven't been relegated since 1951.

Sorry, but often a major rebuild takes time and perseverance. Relative success, failure and turbulence on the way.

Not something that happens in 4 months, 14 months and not even 5 years however impatient and frustrated we are with 30 years of neglect.

Kai Havertz U21 cost £78M?

Very good

You are probably right. The way Ancelotti sets up puts emphasis on the need for exceptional technical ability to take a half chance. There are not many players available for below £80M who can do that.

The rest, in these modern times where instant success is a prerequisite, don't take chances.Long gone are the days when we'll give “promising” youngsters like Labone, Harvey or Tommy Wright a chance.

We can only hope that putting youngsters on our bench as against Man City will give them even more determination to improve and make it

Apart from the Spurs cup tie, can anyone think of one of those youngsters being given more than a few minutes at the end of a game?

We see them named on the bench each week, but every time it is the older players that seem to come on. Now I know some will say it gives them first-team experience (playing in an empty stadium? I very much doubt it), so why not give these a run-out? If they are thought good enough to feature on the bench, then why not give them a bit of game time?

With the stadiums empty, they are hardly going to get the crowd on their backs for the slightest mistake. Even if it's only 20 minutes at first, give them a game.

Same happens every week: you can guarantee, if Everton go a goal down in the second half, within a minute, panic sets in and we throw a sub on straight away. It's never before they have scored; and always the same subs ending in the same result, losing the game more often than not... we never try any of the other subs.

Same players either starting every week, or coming off the bench. It's time we tried something different.

Andy Rankin, Colin Harvey, Roger Kenyon, Joe Royle, Tommy Wright, John Hurst, Jimmy Husband and Alan Whittle.

But, from 2015 to 2021, Everton have produced just Tom Davies.

I say 'cautious': good management as opposed to throwing a player into the cauldron too early and whipping up expectation that only serves to divide opinion.

I don't think so with Foden, that is a truly talented footballer.

He's not particularly pacey. Neither is De Bruyne. Speed on the football pitch can be in the brain, not the feet.

We also spent money but I'd say that's where we erred. Chelsea invested heavily in scouts and coaches; we invested heavily in buying teenagers from other teams, eg: Garbutt, Green, Gibson and Bowler. Mason Mount, by comparison, has been at Chelsea since age 11, learning the Chelsea way.

We would do better with scouting and top coaching at a young age instead of buying 16- or 17-year-olds who have already missed years of quality development and are at best rough diamonds.

Yes, they were winning things but they then had the backing of Bates, who eventually sold the club to Abramovich and made a £17M profit.

Prior to that, they were still buying foreign players and, in the 1999-2000 season, they were the first English club to field 11 non-English players. So really you would have to go back to the times of Osgood and Chopper Harris to find many youth players coming in.

It's great to see those kids craft a career in the game. They are good enough for that and it pleases me to see them do that.

Are those type of players going to take us to the next level? No. Simply and sadly no. I want our academy to feed the first team more than it is now. And be good enough to improve that first team squad.

We all have differences of opinion, that's what makes this site so great, putting opinions across. And sometimes it's funny how we can go off track and add something different into the thread: one minute, we are discussing the game, then after about 200 comments, the likes of Bob Dylan, Gene Hunt, to even Harold Shipman popping up.

But that is why I love ToffeeWeb, you just do not know what is going to pop up in the thread, unlike other sites that would want you sticking to the thread, it is the random post that pops up that makes it a "Wow, where did that thought come from?" moment.

Keep up the good work, guys, and please other posters, keep your posts and banter coming – we may have a difference of opinions at times, but we are all passionate Evertonians.

The academy does okay, probably better than most, but it certainly isn't full of innovators. It's toeing the line and ticking a box, adhering to academy elite standards in this country.

I mentioned the players above as Steavey said that we have only produced Tom Davies in the last 5 years, which isn't correct.

All the Everton homegrown players I mentioned from 1963 had their Everton first team football at least over a 6-year period, and usually left Everton for various reasons in the 1970s. I have named 8 Everton players from the 1960s who consistently played for the 1st team from the youth team set-up.

Excluding Ross Barkley, who had already made his debut in previous seasons, from 2015 to 2021, the only other debutant is Tom Davies, who has regularly played for the Everton first team since 2016.

In the '60s, Celtic won the European Cup with every player born within 30 miles of the city. Most teams of that era produced their own homegrown players as standard.

There are lots of reasons why the current team isn't full of academy graduates. Each team in the premier league is made up predominately of full international players. The standard is ridiculously high, there aren't many youngsters ready or able for that challenge at any club. That's why clubs use the loan system to try and improve players. That's today's standard.

Managers generally don't take chances with young kids when they can go out and buy an international for £20M and nobody bats an eyelid.

Steavey seems to have two issues:

1. We aren't producing enough talent. I agree.

Where I disagree with him is his belief that we'd produce good players merely by giving kids minutes.

I'm with you, I can see what point Steavey is trying to make apart from knocking the club.

If we have the same debate next year, we may have Small, Branthwaite, Nkounkou, and Gordon as first-team players.

If we are using Chelsea as the example, then you would have to include Mason Holgate and Jonjoe Kenny as players that have come from the youth set-up.

As so many others have said, the Russian roubles attracted a lot of Chelsea academy players and I believe at one point they had 40 players out on loan.

Do we credit Chelsea with the career development of Lukaku, Batshuai, Bakayoko, Loftus-Cheek none of whom were regular first-team players?

We cannot undo 30 years of mismanagement and under-investment in the club but, for fuck's sake, let's give them some credit for getting some potentially top kids coming through now.

My take on that would be, it all depends on when the goals were scored. The old adage is something like ‘you can't win the game in the first 20 minutes, but you can lose it.'

To me, the only debate is when should the manager have simply said, "Let's go for win or bust now, lads"? I posted before the game that we would need to be faultless for 90 plus minutes but I made a mistake. That should have said for 120 plus minutes because of the extra time.

We had the option of 5 subs but only 3 substitution windows. I reckon the way the game panned out (we didn't need to chase things until very late on), Carlo decided to go all in on winning it in extra time. He probably planned substitutions on the basis of giving the likes of Davies and Keane a full 30 minutes to rally the troops around them.

Cowardly or just giving yourself the best chance of getting a victory against the odds? Considering how disappointed many are (to them, our season is now over and a bitter disappointment), then I can understand why the manager didn't risk being out of the game with the majority of it still to play, and played to hold on until flagging legs may have given us the opportunity for a smash and grab.

While talent through the Academy hasn't completely dried up, there was a time under Dr Marsh, I believe, but during Howard's first period, when the Academy was closed as a money-saving measure and a lot of young Evertonians were lost across the park.

It wasn't until Joe Royle, and I believe at his insistence, that it was re-opened. It was also common knowledge that it was easier to get a trial under Shankly while Everton turned a lot away.

Remember the story about Lawler? Shankly asked him what he did around there and he answered that he was an apprentice and he mopped out the changing rooms and cleaned the first-team players' boots. Shankly's answer was, "Get on the bus, son, you're here to learn how to play football."

And those players you mention were sourced from Blackpool to Newcastle. Funnily enough, Rob (#435) mentions Celtic winning the European Cup with all players from within 30 miles of Glasgow.

When I returned from travelling the world in the mid '70s, I arranged to meet a friend in Manchester for a night out. My father thought I was mad going that far while I thought that it was only half-an-hour on the train.

Before Barkley, James Vaughan and Anichebe played Europa League campaigns for us.

These players don't always hit the top but they went on to have careers in football. Most of Chelsea's go back abroad or are loaned out year after year.

I believe English football is finally starting to produce a better quality of player than over the past decades; but slowly. Maybe someday, it will negate my scratched record argument, but that won't happen until the grassroots is fixed.

It's all fine and well having elite academies, but only a tiny percentage of English / British players will access them because of the state of the grassroots. Until then, our elite academies will continue to be flooded with imports because the product of our grassroots is simply not good enough at scale.

I was a decent player who played a decent standard but, no matter how many minutes you played me, I was never going to be that standard. That isn't the answer. If the product isn't the standard you desire, you shop elsewhere.

A good measure is not club football, but international. What has England achieved since 1966 in comparison to Germany, Italy, Spain, France and even Holland (with a quarter of the population)? England are parallel to Everton in terms of European international football.

On our own academy / youth set-up. Remember back in the '90s we saw the output of our neglect in focussing on local talent? It seemed every decent local boyhood Evertonian (Fowler, McManaman, Carragher, Owen et al), ended up across the park.

Then it changed. Our proactiveness? Or the policy of the Houllier and Benitez regimes to import youth from France & Spain, getting them in young enough to later be able to label them as "homegrown"? We seemed to get the pick of the local boys for a period.

In my humble opinion, the simple fact is, until we lay the foundations, which start way before these kids even think about trials, academies and being "on the books", our system is flawed. It hopes for the once-in-a-generation "Rooney" coming through. The vast majority of the rest are average or above-average who, yes, go on to earn a living in the beautiful professional game, but are nothing special.

Sheedy, yes; I would also add that Colin Harvey was a huge loss.

I made a post on another thread a few days ago that the ability of youngsters to adapt to top flight football has declined since they moved from the old Central League to the modern day academy system.

Though change has been initiated, I still get the feeling that Brands's promotion to the Board has cemented the status quo that has always existed. Unsworth seems to have been promoted and Baines's appointment was the same as usual. Moshiri's objective of changing the football culture of the Club, by his unorthodox promoting of Brands to the Board, has not worked.

Ancelotti does not seem to be buying into the Academy changes in his team selection. He was at one stage this season, but seems to have stopped. I can't see any change in this happening in the remaining fixtures.

Calls for a return to the days of the Central League fly in the face of 'progress' that never (if ever?) successfully turns the clock back – despite the rampant nostalgia for The Good Old Days amongst Evertonians – seem at best foolhardy.

Steavey, Ross Barkley made his debut in 2011, so under David Moyes, not Roberto Martinez. But he was held back by the ultra-conservative Moyes (who had done the same with Rooney) and it was only under Martinez that his potential was visualized (although arguably not fully realized).

The maths is remarkably simple: if you increasingly purchase and play talented international players from across the world, then there is less and less scope for young up-and-coming homegrown players from your academy. They have to be of a higher and higher standard to make the ever-increasing grade.

I find Jerome's claims on the internal function of the Academy and the club hierarchy annoying at best and extremely disingenuous at worst. Unless you have first-hand knowledge of such things, then this is just your invention, presented as fact. Sadly, you have previous form for doing this.

You say, for example, that Brands, as Director of Football, should not be on the Everton Board of Directors. Why not? Seems perfectly reasonable to me, especially as Paul The Esk has indicated the transition from a traditional "hands-off" Board to a more day-to-day Management Committee. You state his promotion "has not worked". How so? What evidence do you have for such a claim?

If you actually have some sources to back up your claims as facts, then give us your evidence. If it is just your invention, then present it as such... or, preferably, resist the temptation to post what are effectively your invented lies.

He was "late" coming to professional football and was working as a bricklayer and playing part time for Windsor, when he was spotted by a Chelsea scout and went almost straight into their first team.

It's now 26 years since we won some silverware; the longer the wait goes on, the less likely it is to happen.

When I saw the results from Spain yesterday, I noticed that the 5th placed team were hammered by the 2nd placed team, so obviously the gap between the top 4 and the rest in Spain is also huge.

Our academy has failed at the vital step of the transition from U23 to first team.

Take Kieran Dowell, for example. Two of the stand-out players in the Championship one year were Dowell and Maddison. The season following, one of these players was allowed first-team opportunities in the Premier League in a fairly risk-free position to make mistakes and learn from them. He prospered and developed as a footballer and is now one of the most coveted players in the Premier League.

The other got a few minutes in a Caraboa Cup game then was left to stagnate in the U23s until his career drifted towards the Championship.

Whilst we can't say that Dowell would have been as good as Maddison, the fact that he effectively stood still at that vital stage for his development means that we will never know how good he could have been.

The same could be said about Kenny, when he was overlooked for Martina and stood about in the U23s for a while. Had Kenny been playing for the first team instead of waiting around for the next 18 months he might have progressed further.

Unfortunately, at the time of having 5 x U20 World Cup winners, we had a succession of 3 managers who would not trust younger players at all. Their careers stalled and only Calvert-Lewin has gone onto make anything significant. Ironically, due to forced circumstances, Calvert-Lewin was also the only one who was afforded a number of games to learn and make mistakes, like the way that Davies has.

Ancelotti also seems to suffer from a complete lack of trust in younger players. Davies is always hauled off first, Nkounkou and Gordon were never given significant opportunities in times of significant injury crisis, and Kenny wasn't even played when there were no other right-backs at the club.

To put it short, we will never know how good an academy is without the opportunities for the academy players to actually play, make mistakes, and learn from them. Sadly, these opportunities have not been there for a number of years.

Maddison always had that “ bit of a bastard “ in his game, when he was with Norwich he had the nous and guts to go on loan with Aberdeen and roughed it up there in a tough physical league, scored the winner v Rangers in his second game, came back to Norwich and had plenty of premier league clubs sniffing round him, including Everton, while Dowell was still here,now he'll be in demand if he decides it's time to move on from there.

Kieran, did well at first with Notts Forest, did okay, at first with Sheffield Unt. not so well at Derby County, just starting again at Norwich after a long injury, hope he gets that “ bit of a bastard “ in his game, he will be in the same demand as James Maddison.

I think why many of my age talk about the Central League is that was the perfect grounding for young players to learn against experienced players. The Central League was used by all clubs as a way of getting injured players back to fitness, so youngsters often came up against some of the biggest names in the game.

Now, regular first-team players never play in the U23s league. I listened to a player's agent a few years back and he said that most players have it in their contracts that they only play first-team football. I agree, time moves on, and the Central league idea is dead and gone.

You said in your post that Moyes held back Rooney... What? Playing him in the first team at 16 was holding him back?

I often see many posters claiming play the kids, but the reality is, apart from Rooney and to a much much lesser degree Barkley, most of our youngsters are just not good enough.

I don't know whether it's the lack of young talent or the poor coaching but we don't seem to produce a steady stream of youngsters who are ready for first-team football. I have to admit its a long time since

I have watched the Everton youth sides, and have seen many regular watchers of these matches suggest that we have a great prospect playing for the youths but they never ever materialise into first-team players. Davies is the only one over the last 5 years who has managed to sustain his place in the first team squad.

I don't include Calvert-Lewin as Sheffield Utd coaches have to take credit for his progress and he forced his way into the first-team squad within a short period of time.

Surely Moise Kean might have adapted to English football by playing in this type of game, rather than just training, and getting the odd 15 minutes here and there.

I agree that young footballers can learn a lot in training, especially when training with good senior professionals, but nothing prepares a player more than playing, it's where you learn the most imo.

Barca have a B Team or second team and they'll know straight away who is going to be useful to them. Very rare you'll watch Barca though with 5 homegrown players in their starting 11.

A Rooney or crops of talent come around every 10 to 20 years and there are about 8 to 10 clubs waiting for that young superstar to emerge.

I could never see a Bournemouth bringing a Rooney through because Chelsea, Spurs or Arsenal will have stolen him before he's 16.

Look at any team of 8 year olds and then look at the same age group when the kids are twelve and see how many are still there.

They massage ego's and then drop them like a stone, instead of letting the kids train with the club, and play with their mates until they are around 12-13, and then they might have a more realistic picture about these very young kids.

I'm aware this isn't possible because if they don't sign these kids somebody else will, but this massaging of kids and parents ego's, isn't right, because it becomes apparent it's also very false, in this very cut-throat environment

Over the last few decades, the trouble is trying to bring youngsters into dysfunctional 1st teams. The elite clubs Chelsea, Utd and City have not had that problem, they being like we were in the 60s. So our youngsters will INEVITABLY struggle to make a big impact, barring the infrequent occurrence of a young genius like Wayne Rooney.

Until we start performing like a top side, based primarily on signing the best players, youngsters will always struggle in the 1st team. It is almost a law of Nature.

When clubs could only sign boys at 15 at least they had matured to a level were although there would be more failures than successes, at least they would be old enough to understand what was happening. I cant see any benifits in having 8/9 year olds not being able to play with their friends or in school games.

Even wors, mate. Clubs take the kids into the academy at the age of 4.

I think it's a futile exercise [nice match day headline BTW Michael. A nod to 'Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' or 'Star Trek maybe..?] to attempt a comparison as Steavey does to the Everton 'homegrown talent' of the 1960s and 1970s to today's environment.

For one, in the 60s and 70s we did not see one or two 'homegrown players' progress to the first team every season as Steavey claims. That's an exaggeration.

Secondly, as you point out, with the purchasing power of PL clubs and their desire to retain their PL status all clubs buy in a higher standard of 'oven-ready' players which in turn further raises the standard. The 'homegrown talent' has to be exceptional to displace them.

As another poster also recalled, Everton actually did away with it's academy in the early 1980s under HK1 as a cost-saving exercise.

I don't disagree that our academy is found wanting in progressing their intake to PL quality who can be promoted to - and retain - a place in the first XI. Whilst literally scores of ex-Everton academy players carve out a football career in many domestic and overseas leagues, you couldn't pick a starting XI that do so from the top leagues.

However, you cannot expect Marcel Brands to transform the stock of academy players he inherited into international quality players overnight. As well as re-jigging the academy and scouting system (which he has increasingly done - particularly in the last 12 months - for those who closely read Everton news), he had the considerable Gordian knot of a bloated underperforming 1st team squad on high wages and long contracts to deal with.

Just in the last 12 months his signings of Branthwaite and Nkounkou and the promise they have already shown is evidence of Brands delivering on one area many hoped he would. Buy unknown diamonds-in-the-rough cheap and polish them. There is also evidence under Brands of Everton being more ruthless in letting go academy players earlier than has often been the case.

Yet Steavey uses the loans of Branthwaite and Gordon (among others) as a stick to beat the club with.

With the 4 first team centre backs Everton has, Branthwaite would have not got a look in for the first team this season. Yes, he started well at Blackburn, playing every minute of his first 9 fixtures there, but for their last six fixtures he wasn't in the squad for two games and was an unused sub in the other four games.

Anthony Gordon at Preston is similar. In 11 possible games since joining them, he wasn't in the squad for one game, started 5 and was subbed out in all 5. He was subbed in for the final 30 minutes in the other 5 games.

That suggests the club has called it right on both, to try and give them game time. If they are not regular starters for two mid-table Championship teams, it's more than reasonable to assume they are far from ready for regular PL football.

The attrition rate from academy recruitment at ALL clubs is extremely high. And extremely exploitive if I've read the posts of Mark Murphy and Danny O'Neil correctly that parents even PAY for the 'pleasure' of having their son on Chelsea's and Watford's books.

Chelsea's hoovering up of worldwide 'talent' is well-documented, as is the absurd number of young loanees they have. Abramavich and Chelsea possibly got lucky that the transfer ban imposed on them coincided with the return of Frank Lampard as manager.

He knew the club structure. Would have known the talent pool in the academy. He was bold enough to blood some of those players and although Frank is now history, Chelsea is reaping the reward of that policy.

Who is to say that under another headline foreign manager those self-same academy players would have been given the same chance as they enjoyed under Lampard?

Timing and good fortune can be oh so critical in an academy player's development, as Kevin Prytherch demonstrates with his Dowell-Maddison comparison.

I accept Dowell doesn't have the nark in him Maddison does, but the right manager at the right time could still have groomed and established Kieran as a PL talent for Everton, IMO.

Finally Michael, I also find Jerome's positing as fact what is pure speculation on his part a tad bewlidering. Not only about the academy and Brands' role at the club, but also on Calvert-Lewin, of who he says:

'Since the England call-up, DCL is not attempting to improve on his game or follow Ancelotti's coaching...I am beginning to see the England call up as a poison chalice for DCL, thinking he has finally made it and not putting in the work effort he needs to.'

Given the numerous citings from coaches and fellow players alike, those who work with Dominic every day universally describe him as a ferociously dedicated pro, hard-working, good listener, eager to improve every aspect of his game.

I think I'll take their word on DCL over Jerome's on this one.

We won't be there in a year because United Chelsea and Liverpool need more 200 grand a week players and Leicester have the most potential 200 grand a week players.

I wish it'd sink in to everyone outside the elite because its the only way success is found.

Its a business, so you buy it and try to sell it for profit or your brand grows with any success and you continue to purchase real profitable assests.

Until we are in this bracket I don't expect any silverware and i've said this 20 years, its not a reaction.

Its also the best way for me to not be as devastated or down about Everton as I was in the past.

Its a mugs game now outside CL football. We just a club, a number a feeder. Drastic measures can only change that.

USA have been at it for years and simply cannot crack togger despite clipboard coaches coming out of their ears. Youth coaches here produce athletes, not footington players as a result

Only one player from academy in 6 years has graduated to the 1st team, but he can't be sure if he has a starting place in the team.

Yet, in the 1960's when Everton won the title twice the FA cup once, beaten finalists once against fierce competition from Leeds, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, West Ham, Manchester United, Manchester City, occasionally, Burnley, Ipswich Town, Aston Villa, West Brom and Sheffield Wednesday,

Yet, Everton did not depend on money from the John Moore's family to buy such great players like Alan Ball, Howard Kendall, Tony Kay, Roy Vernon, Alex Young and Ray Wilson (both Wilson and Ball are both World Cup winners and world class players, Everton also produced from their youth set up on average a young player every season to join the 1st team. Sometimes 2 in a good year.

The English look to be trying to change, this must be true if the ultra-professional Germans now look towards this country for young talent, and whilst I still remember the French team that won the Euro's in the eighties, with a midfield of incredible skill, I think the French teams who had success since have leaned more towards athleticism and power, rather than the finesse they were known for in the past?

The Italians have been very quiet lately, same with Brazil, and those powerful Africans haven't progressed as well as predicted, but one thing about football nowadays, is it is truly a world game.

England must be the biggest underachievers on the biggest stage though, and are often let down on a technical level, with not enough kids encouraged to love the football!

You should take a trip down memory lane: from 1963 to 1969, Andy Rankin, Joe Royle (Everton and England), Roger Kenyon, Colin Harvey (Everton and England), John Hurst. Tommy Wright (Everton and England) Alan Whittle and Jimmy Husband all played regular football for the Everton 1st team who all joined from the youth team.

*All the above players gained a Division 1 title winners medals in the 1969-70 season.

** Both Colin Harvey and Tommy Wright gained a FA cup final's winners medal in 1966.

The only place he should have been playing is in the Premier League... but something went seriously wrong there and I'm not convinced, in his particular case, that more playing time would have solved it. He had plenty of opportunities (8 starts and 26 sub appearances last season... maybe it was being only a sub that killed the spirit?), it was just never a good fit, for some unfathomable reason.

But on your other points, this perennial moan about football – and yes, the academies – being a business and (presumbly?) therefore no longer a sport? That is not even last century thinking – it belongs in the 19th Century, for fuck's sake. That's when some were last resisting the inevitable about footy players earning a crust, and clubs becoming business entities.

Everton Football Club Co Ltd, – see that bit... it means it's a business – established in 1892. The thing is, it is a business in the business of Sport. It's 2021: everywhere around the world, Sport is Big Business, not some amateur pastime played for the good of the soul.

The Academy is a sporting football academy, run as it obviously should be along proper professional business lines (at least I believe it is, I don't know first hand... This will henceforth be known as the Sheilds Caveat!!). If that means the cream rises to the top and all the rest eventually get ditched... well unfortunately that has to be the way it is because there is only a limited number of places available at the top of the professional sporting tree.

Honestly, I sometimes think the entitlement mentality in this country and all this wonderful EitC crap has sullied everyone's brains when it comes to this issue. We're not simply a 'sport' or a 'charity'... even though a lot of fans again want to turn some mythical clock back in this regard... we're a fucking business and have been for the last 130 years or more.

And was the Central league really that competitive? Some of us just watched Everton U23s play Arsenal. Correct me if I'm wrong but that looked pretty competitive to me. But we have people continuing to slam Unsworth & Co on here because he takes the competitive aspect so seriously, he actually wants his side to win the Premier League Title!!! And yet some people don't like that!!! I really do despair at times

No, Paul, reiterates the real issue, which is one of numbers. So many high-quality internationals coming from abroad to play in the flagship Premier League (which, by the way, has now become really boring to watch). The standard that your average homegrown scally must attain to hold a candle to that is virtually unattainable.

You questioned players coming through the youth set up in the 60s and 70s, this is a list of players that came through

1960s Jimmy Harris played 207 games
Brian Harris played 360 games
Derek Temple played 277 games
Brian Labone played 533 games
I am sure I have missed some but I am Sure someone will add to the 60s list

1970s Andy Rankin 106 games
Colin Harvey 386 games
Tommy Wright 374 games
Jimmy Husband 197 games
John Hurst 388 games
Terry Darracot 178 games
Roger Kenyon 308 games
Mick Lyons 462 games
George Telfer 113 games
Dave Jones 103 games
Mark Higgins 181 games
Billy Wright 198 games.

As you can see I have only included players who represented the club on over 100 times, now I am sure there will be many who came through the youth set up in those 2 decades that only played a few times.

How could I have left Joe Royle and Alan Whittle out of my list of players who came through the youth set up. I am sure there are a few more we have missed but hopefully Jay will reconsider his reply to you.

Andy Rankin England England 11/05/1944
Gordon West England England 24/04/1943
Defender
Sandy Brown Scotland Scotland 24/03/1939
Frank D'Arcy England England 08/12/1946
Terry Darracott England England 06/12/1950
John Hurst England England 06/02/1947
Roger Kenyon England England 04/01/1949
Brian Labone England England 23/01/1940
Mick Lyons England England 12/12/1951
Keith Newton England England 23/06/1941
Arthur Styles England England 03/09/1949
Tommy Wright England England 21/10/1944
Midfielder
Alan Ball England England 12/05/1945
Billy Brindle England England 29/01/1950
Colin Harvey England England 16/11/1944
Tommy Jackson Northern Ireland Northern Ireland 03/11/1946
Howard Kendall England England 22/05/1946
Alan Whittle England England 10/03/1950
Forward
Gerald Humphreys Wales Wales 14/01/1946
Jimmy Husband England England 15/10/1947
David Johnson England England 23/10/1951
Gary Jones England England 05/01/1951
Johnny Morrissey England England 18/04/1940
Joe Royle England England 08/04/1949
Manager Harry Catterick

And I've wondered if thats why Richie has been below par this season, as he's seen Moise leave to play CL football with Kylian Mbappe and Neymar (who he's knows well)

This suggests, the good players are identifiable at 17/18 as with Davies our sole survivor of our "golden generation" having skipped that level (excluding players we bought at that age from other clubs after seeing they were identifiably good e.g. DCL, Holgate)

All the Under 18 kids who "graduate" to the under 23s at 18 seem to go nowhere thereafter except subs benches of lower league clubs. The under 23 league seems to serve no purpose other than keeping unemployment down.

The key phrase from Steavey's own original claim is the following highlighted text:

'In the 60s and 70s we saw one or two 'homegrown players' progress to the first team every season.'

I haven't claimed NO youth players made it to the first team in the 60s and 70s. I correctly pointed out they didn't do so 'every season' as Steavey claimed.

Look at your own lists. Check out their debut seasons, or the seasons they established themselves in the first team (or partially established themselves in the first team. Some of the offered names didn't even make double figures in league games in many seasons).

There are some seasons when more than one player made it to the first team. Equally, there are 'blank' seasons when NO 'youth/academy' players made the breakthrough.

Ergo, Steavey exaggerated when claiming 'every season' 1-2 youth players made it to the first team.

It happens at all clubs. United's 'School of '92' intake is an exceptional example of en bloc academy players progressing to the first team. This example of course bridges the modern era of global academy recruitment, rather than the more parochial era of the 1960s-70s when all clubs were made up of (almost exclusively) UK and Irish players.

I repeat, IMO the playing field in that regard - the expectancy of seeing academy players progress to Everton's first team - is radically different and the comparison Steavey attempts is a redundant one.

Sandy came up through our youth team??

Agree, Stan.

I played in the old central league Michael, I've actually got two winners medals somewhere, and some games were very competitive, and some not as competitive, but it was definitely a place for younger players to learn their trade, and help older players retain their sharpness and competitive edge, and if I was a manager, I wouldn't sign any player that refused to play for the reserve team.

I remember playing Villa, just before Christmas one year, on the evening of the Lockerbie bombing. We had a trialist playing from Martin O'Neils, Grantham Town, (probably a 7/8th division team) and he had a stormer, his name was Gary Crosby. After the game I went home for about 12 days over Christmas, and when I got back, he'd signed and then actually made his Forest debut, against Chelsea the next Saturday, and actually scored, capitalizing on a Tony Dorigo mistake.

What a fairytale story that was, but it's probably not something that would happen nowadays because of progress!

I gave my reasons why the clubs do this, but it's not something I agree with that's all. Football is big business, but I just think you should let kids be kids, but the clubs are terrified of missing out, and although I don't find anything wrong in it being a ruthless business, surely not before a kid reaches his teenage years?

'The full list also includes more players who joined from the Everton youth team: Some notable names mentioned.'

23 players in all. Seven of them (nearly a third) were established players when we signed them:

Gordon West - signed from Blackpool for a then world record fee for a goalkeeper
Sandy Brown - signed from Falkirk having played 100+ games for them
Keith Newton - established England international
Alan Ball - World Cup winner with England, signed and sold for record UK fees at the time
Tommy Jackson signed from Glentorian having won two championship medals with them. 32 appearances in 4 seasons for Everton
Howard Kendall - signed from Preston having played 100 games for them
Johnny Morrissey - signed from 'them' (much to Shankley's annoyance)

Then we have these five chappies (which represents more than 20% of your list):

Frank D'Arcy (16 appearances in 6 seasons; 8 in 2 seasons at Tranmere)
Arthur Styles - 23 appearances in 7 seasons
Billy Brindle - 1 appearance in 3 seasons before dropping down to non-league football
Alan Whittle - 74 games in 5 seasons. His nephew Tom Davies has nearly doubled that in less time
Gerald Humphreys - 12 appearances in 5 seasons

Remind me again Steavey. What point are you trying to make?

, Brands as Director of Football should have never been appointed to the Board. No other Club has a Director of Football appointed to the Board for accountability and governance reasons. Recheck Paul the Esk view.

The internal workings of the Academy have changed since the Brands appointment, according to feedback I have received from friends who actually watch Everton youth games and are acquainted with academy staff. They are not fans of Unsworth and rightly feel that his change in roles last year was a cop out by Brands intead of following through on real change and allowing a underperforming status quo to be maintained.

Michael you are simply wrong and I am not sorry for telling you so.

I'm curious as to why you think Brands shouldn't be on the Board for governance or accountability reason.

I've been a director on the Board of several companies, large and small over a period in excess of 20;years, and I can't think of a single reason why he should be excluded for the reasons you cite. The fact that according to you, no other club does this is irrelevant. How do you know this by the way?

There may be compelling internal reasons why Everton do this, none of which any of us are aware of.

It seems the argument about Brands based on accountability and governance is that he is not receiving the independent oversight on behalf of the shareholders that a more independent (dare I say old-fashioned) Board of Directors who meet at most once every 3 months would provide.

That's all well and good for a more traditional business where the directors are somewhat remote and are not involved in the day-to-day running of the club.

Instead, I suspect he is better able to do his job for the benefit of the major shareholder from his position on the Board. I'm more familiar with the modern approach where the key corporate officers of the business form the Board of Directors and act together more as a team. I don't have any proof that he's being more effective in this mode, but it seems you don't have any proof that he isn't, other than repeating that he should have never been appointed to the Board.

Seems you've got yourself in with an anti-Unsworth crowd who don't think he's doing a decent job – despite twice winning the PL2 title, and seeing a number of players advance through the U23s to the first-team squad. Brands sticking with him does not automatically make this a bad decision – especially if Unsworth has actually done the best job he can with he players he's had at his disposal, but – as Paul and others have said – the vast majority of them just haven't been good enough to progress on to the first team.

I think it's really hard for us to judge but I'm prepared to give both Brands and Unsworth the benefit of the doubt here. I would need proof – rather than opinion – to show that both Brands and Unsworth are not performing up to the required standard.

I didn't realize you played at Forest. Crosby apart, they had a lot of good young players coming through in that era. You must have some great memories even if Dave has nicked your silverware.

As a Director, he has plenty of oversight and accountability, arguably more than someone who is not a Director.

I'm not the boasting type either but I'll give you three guesses where Tony inherited his skill from, clue — it wasn't his mam!!

I am not sure why Steavey included players that were bought and didnt come through our youth system. My point in sending the list I sent was to refute your idea that we didn't produce a lot from our youth set up in the 60s and 70s.

I think Mick Buckley was another who I missed off my original list along with Joe Royle and Alan Whittle. So adding those 3 in the 60s and 70s, and they ALL played over 100 times for our club.

I wonder in comparison how many have come through our youth system since 2000 which is a comparative time span to the eras I have quoted. My only stipulation is they must all have played at least 100 times for the club.

Ive got you down as a full back

Sir, you have taken debuts out of context. I used the word on average. For example if 8 young players made their debuts in 8 years, it could be said on average 1 youth player made their debut every season.

Also, you have taken the 1969/70 squad list out of context. The list was to confirm all the players that came through the Everton youth set up, it was not meant to include players like Sandy Brown or Alan Ball. I thought you would have known the differences. But I was wrong. Although, we should be friends not rivals.

The small Board of Everton lacks accountablity and governance even before Brand's appointment, hence Evertons underperformance commercially. I tohave been a Director on Company Boards and have seen attempts to reduce Board size to gain more control, which inevitablity reduces accountablity, governance and performance. Reference Paul the Esk who is in favour if a larger board and more professional Director appointments.

Brands was appointed as Director of Football accountable to the Board and to work with the Manager who is also accountable to the Board. Once Brands was appointed to the Board he was 'professionally ' accountable to noone. It also put the Manager in the situation that he is accountable to the Director of Football as he is on the Board.

Silva in part paid for the debacle of the Summer transfer window before he left. Brands appeared not to be a Board Director or Director of Football during it, such was Kenwrights influence. Anyway he was not held accountable, but Silva was.

Ancelotti is tuffer than Silva is able make Brands shape up, and prevent interference. But their is still the unknown situation of when the Board has to take a tuf decision and where Brands accountablity
Iies in the scheme of things.

Like Paul the Esk I would like to see changes at Board Level in personnel and structure as a prerequisite to Everton's progression.

They are each clearly responsible for specific areas, in Brands case, Football, now across the piece. In Rysantsevs, Commercial and Finance, and I also think that the CEO retains responsibility for HR, Charities and Community, which is very unusual. You need to ask yourself why this change was implemented in the first place. Arguably because of a lousy commercial performance? Arguably because it wasn't transparently accountable. Arguably to improve the aboard performance?

As a Director he is responsible to the Board, and also governed by Company Law. Collectively, they are responsible for Strategy and following it once agreed, within budget.Within this structure, and any Board no single person can go off and decide that I'm going to open a stadium! Or I'm going to sign this player. Not unless it is agreed by the Board collectively and in line with strategy. That alone is a step forward.

I agree it looks too small, and may well change as we move forward. I hope so.

But lacking accountability and governance? I'd say it's possibly increased both when compared to the mess that has gone before. It may be that Moshiri has learned a lesson.

But of course none of us know.

And I'll repeat for the THIRD TIME now what I previously said @ 477 and 495.

I have not contested that Everton failed to produce first team players from its youth ranks in the 60s and 70s. I contested Steavey's explicit claim that they did so every season.. That he was exaggerating.

Whilst there were some seasons when two or more youth players saw first team action for the first time, other seasons were blanks, with none doing so.

By your own count you have produced a list of 19 players who progressed from the youth ranks to the first team. 20 years covers the two decades of the 60s and 70s. Some of the players in your list would have made their first team debuts in the same season. Ergo, as there were some seasons when two or more youth players saw first team action for the first time, other seasons were blanks, with none doing so.

I will also repeat once again, Steavey made the claims he did as a means to negatively contrast how few in today's academy make it to the first team in comparison to a completely different era.

We are talking 50-60 years ago Brian. As I ponted out, a completely different scenario when all clubs were almost exclusively made up of UK and Irish players as opposed to the global recruitment of today.

As recently as 1992, 85% of PL players came from the UK and Ireland. Today, it is just 47%. No fewer than 63 different nationalities now play in the PL. In the 60s and 70s the percentages and number of different nationalities would, I fancy, have been in single digits.

Finally, back @ 477 I very explicitly said:

'I don't disagree that our academy is found wanting in progressing their intake to PL quality who can be promoted to - and retain - a place in the first XI. Whilst literally scores of ex-Everton academy players carve out a football career in many domestic and overseas leagues, you couldn't pick a starting XI that do so from the top leagues.'

I'm not the one negating the notion that we didn't produce first team players from the youth ranks in the 60s and 70s, or promoting the view that we are doing better now.

I am simply contesting that the (erroneous) contrast between eras Steavey attempts is not a valid one for the reasons I have clearly spelt out.

I hope the yanks do get it right and moreover become more influential in the governance of the sport. Their insistence on entertainment and capacity for innovation would be a shot in the arm for a game which has been dying on it's arse as a spectacle for years.

Personally, I can't see it. The idea of a George Best, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc coming from the manicured college grounds of the USA seems beyond the realms to me but who knows?

Thank you for commenting on the Brands issue that Jerome insists is correct.

Although I have never been a director myself, I have observed from below, and I find your explanations and observations to be bang on the money... unlike these wild and totally unsubstantiated claims that Jerome continues to make — without any evidence.

Central League or U23s, the gap remains between the "stiffs" and the first team regardless of what you call or label them.

Nothing much has changed but I never liked the Central League personally. Clubs still import from other clubs, more so from abroad these days. But, products of the reserves / academies often went / go onto have a career somewhere else, not at the club who's reserves / academy they came through. How often can we cite where a club has spent millions buying a player they released at 16 or 18? This can be because the club management doesn't see it in them at the time or, using the very good Dowell versus Maddison analysis earlier, some players just develop later than others.

On the academy system itself, I've been vocal before. I don't like it. It's a closed shop for the few, detached from grass roots football. Half decent kids are sucked into it and most are unceremoniously spat out and then lose belief and interest in football. From the age of 8 or 9, they live in a bubble, detached from reality. I think this actually has a negative effect and not just on the footballing side, but mentally and life in general. We produce robots and have built from the top down, not on solid foundations.

Sorry to repeat myself, but I recall my younger years in Germany as the son of a serviceman. Some of the youth teams of the professional teams used to regularly play local teams. In the area I lived, Bayer Uerdingen (then Bundesliga, now KFC Uerdingen) actually played in the local league. Yes, clearly the best, but they played and enjoyed regular football against normal teams mixed with normal players & likeminded kids. I don't know or suspect if that practice still continues, but it left an impression on me.

Best line of the thread; Dave has Tony's trophies and he's not giving them back!!!

'[Jay] you have taken debuts out of context. I used the word on average. For example if 8 young players made their debuts in 8 years, it could be said on average 1 youth player made their debut every season.'

You did no such thing Steavey. You've appended that now for the first time in this thread.

But if you want to run with that and allow some of the names you listed as 'evidence', then in the PL era since 1993 the Everton academy has seen more than 50 players play for the first team. That 'averages' at around 2 debutants per season. Full list here:

Everton's 50 Academy Graduates

It's also only up to 2017 so you can add at least Thiery Small and Tyler Onyango.

I ask again: what is the point you are trying to make, Steavey?

I try to avoid non football related topics these day to be honest. But as far as I can see there are some encouraging signs of some joined up thinking breaking out here and there.

Witness the planning Application and the process that led up to it, and the Goodison heritage plan. Also the last window where Carlo and Brands seemed to work in tandem to bring in a group of players who improved the team, cost effectively and promptly, each having an input. There are other things too, like the club's response to COVID which was just about right, especially when compared with others, not too far away.

Talk about overseas offices etc. Somebody is causing these things to happen. It looks like a plan!

I take the point about the the Academy. Could do with a bit of focus by the look of it.

But whilst Brands is accountable for this, it's not him who will be the doing the day to day stuff. We'll see how this develops I guess.

It is an extremely competitive market now and scouts are calling for clubs to bid for players at 11 and 12 now.

Just think about the Jermaine Pennant saga as an example of what the game has become. It's not the '60s '70s or '80s and a lot of typing has been wasted on pointless stats.

Pennant was looked at by every club with £3 million to spend (on a hype job) and he is just one of many that started to move for a silly fee at a young age. And they keep getting younger.

The Daniel James move to Man Utd opened my eyes to what has happened to football these days.

He is a player that would have been destined for the likes of us and we weren't even linked. Highly rated talent even at that level seems out of our reach now while everyone chases Man City.

We have recently taken on Scandinavian scouts (a good move in my opinion) and we are looking at lower-cost talent given the likes of Manchester United are looking at Championship level.

As Evertonians, it's a long haul we either face or jack it in, because we are way behind in terms of what we can offer kids compared to Man City and Chelsea but we are still capable of producing a top player.

Most clubs can produce a great talent and the likes of Brands knows he has to look into different, maybe smaller markets? To get in there first for players that can make it at Everton.

I don't see him taking too many risks with players under 18 though?

Tony, apologies – the business thing on here is a bit of a trigger for me. I see it said far too often and it's simply nonsense. I do get your point about the kids but I have no personal knowledge of that part of the system and, as they say, everyone's doing it. At least they can't sign "professional" contracts until they are 17... but there must be some formal instrument tying them to one club as kids... until the fateful day arrives?

Thing is, although it's a team game, academies ultimately have to be more about what the individual brings to the game and what he can do for the team. So it becomes survival of the fittest. I know that doesn't chime so well with the heavy socialist agenda promoted quite happily by a number of posters on here.

Hang on... there's another interesting side discussion here: doesn't it make an odd contrast with these equally false claims about football being a working man's sport? Where's the social equality in the highly competitive winner-takes-all Premier League?

This PC bollox in youth football now is stupid in my opinion. No winners, no losers here kids. Everyone in the squad gets 10 or 15 minutes regardless of performance.

Learning the kids how to lose straight from the off.

But your lack of care in such matters is paralleled nicely by your playing fast and loose with the truth and your inability to back up the numerous questionable claims you make on here with annoying regularity.

Have you provided any back-up at all beyond what your friends have told you? You seem very good at simply ignoring such direct requests or anything that challenges what you spout as being some truth that we are all supposed to accept without question.

Like hundreds of kids growing up right after the war we played street football anywhere we could and we just loved it, couldn't get enough of it, and plenty of us knew how to play football, two footed, dribble, tackle, pass and playing for your team in street matches against other street teams you played to win at all costs and learned to be a team player, although there were plenty of fancy Dan's who played for themselves, when they played there should have been two balls on the pitch, one for “ The Danny and the Dribblers” and one for the rest of us. You soon learned who the good players were and I still remember them and those thousands of games we played over seventy years ago, oh those lovely memories. I wish I could go out right now and have a good bleedin' game of footie, thanks for asking Thomas, although I bet you're sorry you did now after this post!!

It actually became quite boring after a while but Post (519) was by far your best response. Do more just like that. I will continue to post when I THINK I may have something useful to say. Mind you that is usually decided by those who read whatever I may have to say.

I remember that goal Frank, and I remember Clough, taking an instant liking to Crosby, was even calling him Bing, after that reserve game, and you know the score mate, because it doesn't matter in any walk of life when the gaffer likes you, things usually work out alright!

I'm sure Crosby is Nigel Clough's assistant manager, so that one game definitely changed his life.

Danny, Dave can have those Tankards mate. Even as a school kid, I used to drive my teammates crazy, until they decided they'd had enough of me and stopped me going up to pick up the cup because they used to say I was a miserable bastard.

My philosophy was mad, I broke all my older brothers medals because I was jealous because I never had none of my own when I was seven years of age, but as soon as I won my own they never bothered me anymore. The only pleasure I got was playing the game, nothing else really mattered to me after this!

Jay, you have been informed from other contributors about the massive success of Everton's youth policy from the 1950s thru to the 1970s when Everton could field the first team including many local lads and some from the Blackpool area as well. The successful team that won the 1st Division title in the 1969-70 season contained no fewer than 7 lads who came up through the Everton youth teams plus many more who are not listed who made contributions during the 1969-70 successful season, as well. Yet, for the past 5 years, only Tom Davies has been regular for the first team after making his debut in 2016 in a team that wins nothing. That is a pitiful result compared to the 1950s thru to the 1970s successful youth teams.

You understand that, or you don't. You evidently don't.

I was lucky growing up, I played for a manager who loved me, from age 8 until under 15's. I was the baby in that team, but there was never none of those, most horrible of shouts, “don't be having it in there” because he encouraged us all to try and play, and he learned everyone of us, the value of trying to let the ball do the work.

I agree with Barry, football is mostly dull these days. It's obviously not helped by their being no crowds, but very few players look to play one-two's anymore, especially when playing in blue.

"Don't be having it there"; "get rid".

You've heard me enough on here to know I shudder at those types of comments.

Youth football should be about development and performance. Not obsessed with the result. Yes there is a balance with breeding winners, but at youth level, the result isn't the be all and end all.

I'll stop there as I'll just boringly repeat myself!!

Looking back, I'd sooner have got beat two-one, than won ten-nil, because I never learned a thing in the easy games.

Youth football is about development, not results.

Where I think the problems are is back then you had a first team and a Central League team, or Everton Reserves as they were known. Any player that was not quite up to it or coming back from an injury went into the reserves.

The U23 level is just not as strong as it was back then. Bringing in either a B team, or reverting back to the reserves, could be the answer, not just for Everton, but other teams as well.

Now you have U18s and U23s. For me, if you just focus on the reserves as one, rather than different age groups, you just might get a few more youngsters making it, and pushing for a first-team place. Far better to have say 16 competing for the reserves, than say 40 for the various age groups.

Just my thought, but far too many youngsters spread out, dog eat dog, select the best, regardless of age, and get them in the reserves, and work on them.

Cheers mate.

I understand where you are coming from in saying you never learn a thing from easy games. In my misspent youth, I was pretty good at snooker and one day I played against a professional who let me have about 3 shots before he finished the game. After the game, he told me that to improve my game always play someone better than yourself, you will learn a lot.

What I learned was I was bloody useless as everyone was beating me.

That's the issue with both the Central League and the current U23s, in my opinion. Obviously I don't speak from experience, but it just doesn't replicate first-team experience. I would say the Central League probably stifled youth development as it was filled more with older players; the reserves??

If you look at our bench, that can have say three youngsters on the bench, then either Iwobi, Bernard and the likes. Then, apart from the Spurs cup game, you know the established players come off the bench every single match; we never seem to throw one of the youngsters on.

Looking at the players you mentioned who came through the Everton youth ranks, Keith Newton?

He signed from Burnley when he was 28.

Alan Ball?? Check again, Steavey.

I remember Moyes being a big proponent of the B-side idea. To me, it makes utter sense, and instead of having an Under-23 side, we could have an Under-16/18 and and Under-21 league, but no Under-23s. At 21 plus, if good enough, you'd be playing in the B-team. Plus, it allows the club to keep a close tab on the player, and get them playing in a style that matches the first team.

Yes, it makes utter sense!

Plus, it would make more sense for players returning from injury too.

Just read your post after I wrote mine!

Stevey overlooks how many homegrown academy talents we produced and gave debuts to in the 90s: Cadamarteri, Jeffers, Ball, Dunne, Sansom, Gough, Gerry Peyton, Mark Hughes, David Ginola and so on...

Sandy Brown was signed from Partick Thistle. Alex Parker and Eddie O'Hara were signed from Falkirk.

Interesting point about the '50s, '60s and '70s. Rack your collective brains. Wasn't there a major, major 'shake up' of the scouting system in the late '70s, aka, lots of redundancies and 'modernisings'?

I had some minor dealings with Everton scouts, about 1980. I had a peach of a player, age 20, playing in our Zingari team, a Dovecot lad, his idea of a heavy night out was 2 orange juices. Built like Vardy, the sort that even now, people (wrongly) say, needs to bulk up a bit. He got knocked back for being too old (and I suspect, a bit too slight; he was 5ft-9/10in).

How do I know this? I know because, after a trial or three, the club rep phoned me up to say they wouldn't be pursuing their interest, but if you find me a bigger 6ft, 16-year-old version, let me know.

This is the scouting system that let, boyhood blues, Owen etc, etc, slip through the net. Who is to say... let's call him 'Bernie', would have made the grade? But if your coaching net is set to 6ft tall 16-year-olds, it's no wonder the likes of Owen and MacManaman slip through.

Wasn't JP Kissock a legal dwarf? Obviously he's the most extreme example of a tiny player but, for a time at least, later on they obviously started to look at smaller players again.

Dave (#536); You surprise me that De La Salle was a rugby school as one of the only two times I've set foot in our former ground was when Quarry Bank played them in a final around the mid '60s. The Quarry team included Joe Royle and Bob Paisley's elder son in goal but still lost 6-1.

Tony (#542); I'd be interested to hear more about youth coaching you received and if you know how that compares to that of today. Similarly, could anyone of our South America correspondents advise of their systems at youth level as Brazil, particularly, are held up as the system that produces more individual skill as opposed to the English emphasis as a team sport.

Derek (#561); I don't suppose that scout had ever been told the story of Alan Ball who was turned down by a couple of clubs because of his size and, let's be honest, was not much of a header of the ball. (Yes, Si, I jest!)

Oh, and finally, the cost of the Academy may have been offset by the sale of one product to the tune of £27M albeit I think only Dowell for £1M recently.

I attended De La Salle in the late '70s. The school didn't play rugby then – I didn't know it ever had. Were you there when Mike Lyons was a pupil?

Alan @563 – even smaller and just as good: Bobby Collins... it's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

I look at the players that came through that system and would say 99% of them, who surely must be a reflection of the coaching, became nothing more than methodical footballers.

Coach kids but keep it fun, start the serious stuff when the game really begins to change around the age of 14, I'd say.

Bring in an education trust, funded by first-team players (I'm sure, once the players realised the benefits, they would all give 2% of their wage to such a scheme?) and take over the schooling of these kids.

The ones that don't make it will at least be properly educated and ready to be a success in life... and this is none of my ideas!

An Education Trust, as you suggest, with those aims would be the best idea. But, as was pointed out to me earlier and you have hinted, it takes a large money investment, accompanied by properly trained able coaches.

At Everton it appears we have in the main neither. It even appears that youth have been loaned out to reduce the wages bill, a throwback from a poor transfer policy, with only attempted change of the Academy on a budget.

I too would like to revolutionise the system, but don't know enough to do so. I guess there are others, with knowledge and ability, within the system that would be of the same view, but they are outnumbered by those that want to comfortably to get by.

The whole hypothesis formed from no actual information or knowledge from inside the first process or the latter, just guessing how each works and functions past and present.

Then a stern refusal to accommodate any conflicting facts or information, no matter how logical it is. This is not debate or reasoned opinion – it's boring at best, clickbait

My grandsons all play, all good players. One of them is a netter, the amount of times he has been subbed when on two goals, I couldn't count. It almost becomes a race to get his hat-trick before being subbed. That in turn makes him shoot when he should pass. I can't see how a kid can learn when they know they are playing half a game every week, regardless of performance.

On the academies, the youngest of my grandsons who play is the best by a mile. He was at the academy of a top Premier League club for 18 months, doing really well. One day, he told us he wasn't going anymore because he wanted to play for his Sunday team. Just wanted to play with his mates. One of my proudest days as a grandad.

He sounds like a lad with his head screwed on right... all your doing, I expect.

My grandson asked me (knowing I'm Everton mad) "Which should I play, Grandad, Aussie Rules or Soccer?" I said it was up to him, as it was the actual playing that counts, being in a team with your mates, not the shape of the ball.

He went with AFL, but goes to training in his Everton Shirt.

No, I wasn't there when Mick Lyons was there, I started when De La Salle was in Breckfield Road South and the school then moved to Croxteth in 1953 or 54. The PT (or PE as it is now) teacher was an English International at Rugby Union, Pat Quinn, full back. His club was New Brighton.

De La Salle started playing football in the last couple of years I was there. I played inside forward for them, that was around 1956-57.

I think the school cost £212,000 to build, a nice bit of useless information for you there, Mike, but at least it's free!!

Pat Quinn was our rugby coach and games master at Cardinal Allen in the mid-60s.

Pat, erm... Mr Quinn was a good teacher and easy to talk to, never mentioned himself in regard to playing for England.

What stood out, in those days, he owned a car, he might have been the only teacher, then, who did. He used to give two or three other teachers a lift to and from school, but having a car then was very unusual!!

The house matches were very competitive and winning was everything as Jack always made a point of mentioning who had won the house matches at the following morning assembly.

I guess that would be frowned upon today, as its not PC to single out winners. Yes, teach kids the basics but then let them develop in whatever sport they take up. Too often the natural ability is coached out of kids. That's another reason I am against any kid under 15 being at academies.

Mulhern was in my class.

I was told that he died in a car crash, a fair bit after I'd left school, by a girl he used to babysit, when she was little.

He used to put us rugby players through extensive circuit training every lunchtime, and short sprints over about 15 yards. We were bloody fit by the time we'd finished.

Rugby Saturday morning, Pub, Goodison Saturday afternoon, football at Otterspool Sunday morning. A lot of time on buses!

You had a few lively weekends then Chris, playing rugby, watching the Blues then footie on the Sundays, that would get you fit, never mind playing the football at windswept Otterspool, Imused to go there a lot on Saturday mornings watching Tony play there for his school team, Nugent, one year they only lost one game, right through the season, in the semi final of “The Echo Cup” to me, that game was like Everton losing to Liverpool in the FA cup final, a killer!!

I just watched a bio about Gascoigne and, even in his day, intimidation was still a mainstay of footballing development. Arthur Cox, the then Newcastle manager, twatted him across the head simply for touching the team sheet!! Gazza, being a bit empty in the skull area, just accepted it but how many young footballers have said "Fuck this for a game of soldiers" and turned to other occupations?

1) "At Everton, it appears [we do not have] properly trained able coaches."

On what do you base that claim? Would having their coaching badges (or whatever is now required in the business) be sufficient for you? Perhaps, as in most professional entities, they're subject to periodic assessment of their abilities? Or are your ITK friends telling you that Everton's coaches are neither properly trained nor able as coaches?

2) "It even appears that youth have been loaned out to reduce the wages bill."

Such a ridiculous claim considering their small wages... but again, where is your evidence? How do you know this? How do you know they are not being loaned out for the very obvious purpose of their own individual footballing advancement?

3) "There are others, with knowledge and ability, within the system that would be of the same view, but they are outnumbered by those that want to comfortably get by."

So you know the views of everyone within the system? The ones holding sway just "want to comfortably get by"? That implies they have no interest in promoting the academy to be the best in the world?

What I object to is that this stuff is just so pernicious. It's all really subjective hypothesis and conspiracy-mongering presented by you on here as facts. Your insinuations are highly insulting and inflammatory toward professionals of our club, and I find that seriously disappointing when presented like this without any evidence.

She called him Uncle Pat. It was about 20 odd years ago she told me.

We played rugby at school, but occasionally one football loving teacher or other would arrange a football match with another school, and I usually got picked for that. So we had to arrange our own matches on Sunday. We played often in a park in Clubmoor. I've forgotten the name. We also played at lunchtime and after school as often as we could.

As a kid we played on the little triangle at the top of Bullens Road, where the ticket portakabins are now. There used to be a training pitch there, where the car park is now, with little floodlights so when there was a night training session there, we were able to stay out a bit later playing in the light. Pre Bellefield I guess, in the 50s. Always on Stanley Park too.

Later I played in the Business House Leagues and the lower Zingari leagues, and a pub team in Wales.

Thanks mate, he is a great kid.

I am a big believer in encouraging the kids to do what they want to do in sport, not pushing them into what you want them to do in sport.

"Steavey Buckley @ 540; Dave and Tony A; Uncle Tom Cobbley and everybody old enough to remember the '70s..."

The youth system at Everton FC in the 1950s thru to the 1970s was magnificent due to the dedication of those who managed the youth teams, who probably received little in the way of wages.

The title-winning team of 1969-70 was mainly composed of those who came through the Everton youth teams.

Now, there is not one great footballer coming thru from the academy in the last 6 years.

So the youth system is now a failure because, without Everton younger players, there is no real local connection to the footballing communities on Merseyside.

Pulling rank isn't going to work. Your fixations are clouding your reading of my posts. You accuse me of being subjectve, I cancel that by accusing you of lacking objectivity, which appears to be your hallmarks as other posters have found out.

The title winning squad of 1969/70 season was mainly made up of home grown players and there were 7 regulars from the youth team who played for the title winning first team, who were given their chance by Harry Catterick.

Colin Harvey was given his debut at 18 years of age against Inter Milan at the San Siro stadium in the European title winners championship also by Harry Catterick.

It is virtually impossible in this day and age for any top manager to give so many youth players their chances like Harry Catterick did so when he was manager at Everton.

Joe Royle was 16 years of age when he was given his chance by Harry Catterick to play in the Everton first team.

I'd have been gutted if one of my kids told me that, Thomas. I can understand why you was proud, but I'd have been gutted I hadn't protected the kid a bit better.

Hopefully your grandson keeps playing well with his mates, and goes back to the academy when he decides if and when he wants to be a professional footballer, mate. 🤞

Not sure what you mean when you say "but I'd have been gutted I hadn't protected the kid a bit better"?

You keep pushing the dial, now you're comparing the youth set up in the 1950s! Why not just go a little further and tell us how good it was when we had amateur teenage dock workers in the youth team and played at Anfield

The 1960's were the golden period of Everton football now gone for good.

It was the period when Everton were called the football school of science led by the golden vision of Alex Young.

Everton also had Alan Ball 'who was here there and everywhere, Alan Ball.'

Sadly the demise of Everton as a great football club came about when Harry Catterick sold Alan Ball the fans biggest favorite to Arsenal for 200,000 pieces of silver.

Many fans for the past 60 years consider Alan Ball Everton's greatest player, who also played in the winning World cup team of 1966.

George Costigan aka Bob from Rita,Sue and Bob too among other well know drama and tv he has appeared in, is an Evertonian and runs an Everton podcast, and also on Paul the Esk pals list.

One of the best and funniest films made, even more so now with Bob the Blue up on,t moors.

Bit of a character wasn't he with his "one hump or two" innuendo. The classic northerner

RIP Frank Worthington, I was just showing my lad the goal he scored for Bolton v Ipswich.

Classy maverick type, player who'd be good in any era.

Full name Norman John Whitehead
Date of birth 22 April 1948 (age 72)
Place of birth Liverpool, England
Position(s) Winger
Youth career
Skelmersdale United
Senior career*
Years Team Apps (Gls)
1967–1968 Southport 8 (0)
1968–1972 Rochdale 156 (11)
1972–1973 Rotherham 33 (2)
1973–1976 Chester 74 (8)
1976–1977 Grimsby 4 (0)
Rhyl
Total 275 (21)
* Senior club appearances and goals counted for the domestic league only

I think the clubs should maybe set up training camps for talented kids, but there is nothing better than playing with your mates, especially at an early age, and I just think these kids are getting to much structure and not enough freedom, which makes loads fall out of love with the game before they've even started.

Despite being surrounded by world class players at City, United, The shite and Us he would often illuminate "Kick off" on Friday night.

His keepy up, flick over the defenders and Volley started the program for months.

Practiced that goal a hundred times and failed. I could never quite master the volley dropping from over me shoulder....Brilliant !

RIP fella

He started to make excuses up to not go.
The club involved asked would it help to cut his training to twice a week.We gave that a go.
Then they asked did he just want to go once a week. He gave that a go but eventually made his decision not to go anymore. We backed him 100%.

He plays with his mates now.
If he develops as I think he will the clubs will come back for him.
Plenty of time for him to enjoy his childhood.

We were spoilt in the 60s and 70s Frank was one of many huge personalities
who could actually play. Imagine Shearer, Lineker, Owen etc flicking it backwards over a centre half, turning him then volleying into the net before the ball touched the ground??

Neither can I

RIP Frank a proper footballer

The kids play the game and want to win but win or lose its a clean slate the following week and another game of footy.

This dissuades overly competitive teams. There is nothing worse than hearing adults 'coaches' or parents screaming 'encouraging' at kids over Saturday or Sunday morning footy.

The City is booming for mini soccer but when the fascination wears off and people realise that they haven't got the next Rooney or Gerard for a son the game drops off dramatically. The City is struggling in participation when kids get to u16.

Not sure what the answer is but the silence from the county fa is deafening.

I was reluctant, he begged me to let him go, and although it was only training, he wasn't ready, and I should have put my foot down more, but I knew if I was seven, and Everton wanted me to train with them, I'd have been a nightmare if my own dad would had said no to me, and so I let him go.

I couldn't fault Everton, and an old football mate done most of the training, which I thought was good, but it's to young, and I realise now that we need to protect our kids a bit more until they get a bit older.

Looking back at my own childhood Thomas, I definitely did to much, I can remember times in my life when I trained every single night of the week, and usually played three games on a weekend, and it only stopped at under 15 level because Liverpool schoolboys wouldn't let us play for anyone else but the school team.

These academies keep the kids a lot fresher, but all that travel and it definitely stops being the same game, so let the kids have more fun before the game becomes to serious, although not everyone will agree with me I'm sure.

Rob, some of the parents watching kids games are properly round the bend mate. It's got that bad in some leagues, I've heard the parents have to book in the night before, but whilst I understand what Thomas says, I just think this win at all costs isn't always beneficial, because parents mostly just encourage the kids to get it down the fucking other end honestly.

Youth football is not about the wins or results, it's about developing players and letting kids enjoy the game - they won't develop if they don't enjoy it. If they don't enjoy it, they are less likely to win.

I do not mean to be derogatory to those who spend their own time and money organising football for kids, I've stood there and witnessed it. But some have no place trying to "teach" the art of football. There has to be a criteria. To be a team / club, you should be mandated to have facilities to a certain standard. You need coaches who can coach, not just shout and point from the sideline yet cannot demonstrate the intent in training.

Our system needs streamlining and less clubs. I would argue that is the case professionally too, but that is another debate. Do away with the Dad culture of forming a team on the local mud-ridden park to drive their own ego. It's a complete overhaul for me; the system needs rebuilding from the bottom up.

Repetition again, take note of the continent. Better organisation, better facilities and a system that genuinely feeds the football pyramid. Professional clubs' youth teams who are far more in touch with their local football setups than the self licking, enclosed shut door establishments our elite academies have become, with young players living in a bubble far detached from reality.

Sorry, I get opinionated on this, like many on here.

He was a character, an entertainer likened to Gazza, Best, Marsh, McKenzie and a few others. Very few, if any like that around today simply because the game has changed. Players have to be robotic and learn how to become part of the bus when the bus get's ''parked'' which is almost every game.

I disagree with the statement about Everton no longer being a great club when Ball was sold. They bounced back in the eighties under Kendall and were as good as any Everton team in the sixties if not better.

Regarding De La Salle, when they were situated in Breckfield Road South, just a bit before my time but definitely after the second World War, they were known as St. Elizabeth's and they had a very good schoolboys boxing team.

Brian Reade who writes for The Daily Mirror was also a pupil at De La Salle.

Regarding De La Salle, when they were situated in Breckfield Road South, just a bit before my time but definitely after the second World War, they were known as St. Elizabeth's and they had a very good schoolboys boxing team.

Brian Reade who writes for The Daily Mirror was also a pupil at De La Salle.

With regards to your lad, it's a hell of a dilemma, but like you say, you can't deny the opportunity. You've commented before, but I went to Bellefield as a 12 year old. It remains one of my most memorable experiences, but also one of my most devastating. I was physically dwarfed and bullied and strayed away from football until I joined the Army at 16. I later went on to be a strapping (dare I say!!!) 6 foot half-decent centre back, but at 12 I wasn't physically developed enough to compete.

But, as you say, the club and Terry Darracott in particular really looked after me. My Dad was more obsessed with the fact they had a blue clothed pool table in the canteen - uncommon in those days!!

Agree though, set the conditions to let the kids enjoy the game and develop. Players, both ability wise and physically, develop at different stages of life. I would argue that goes on until the mid 20s for most. Remember when a young player breaking into the first team was about 22, not 17?

To me it's sick that children can be exclusively signed on for "development" before they're sixteen, never mind 10. Yes, we all know Rooney was an exception in terms of being 16 and brilliant (and there will be just a few, a very few, others who've blossomed by then) but by now in my life I've known a few kids, genuinely brilliant and keen at 12-13, supposedly then "cossetted" until they were 17'ish, BUT DO NOT, YOUNG MAN, PLAY FOOTBALL OUTSIDE OF THIS CLUB, OR ELSE, by desperate clubs keen to get summat for nowt, until, under the remorseless pressure of endless practice doing things that are robotic, they simply pack football in, period.

In the meantime the physically fit, but intellectually thick and unimaginative lad, in the same intake as the gifted lad, gets a pro contract by merely doing precisely what the coaches demand in terms of running, ball retention and passing stats.

It's moronic to watch as a so-called entertainment but, hey-ho, for Everton Unsy and the rest develop enough players over God-knows-how-long to pay for their own salaries and, admittedly, produce a squad level player for the first team once or twice a decade.

Sigh!

PS; where's John McFarlane Snr these days? I miss his input.

Echo your comments ref John McF Snr. Also noticed that Sam Hoare has been missing for a while. And was also wondering if - when grounds reopen - Ken Buckley may return with a “from my seat” post-Covid special?

Back in 1931, my grandfather boxed at the Tower when the Liverpool Stadium closed. The then main Liverpool boxing promoter Johnny Best tried a few different venues while the New Stadium was being built.

Other venues back then included the Lyric Theatre on Everton Brow, the Southport Winter Gardens, Tranmere's ground and the main one, Anfield which staged many great boxing shows until the 1940s

My grandfather, Dickie Burke, boxed at them all along with the great Nel Tarleton, whose nephew Rick is also a ToffeeWeb poster!