ToffeeWeb Chatroom — Matchweek 14

Alan,

I remember one game v Leicester, a 3-1 victory with two sublime goals for Tommy Ring, both curving shots into the far corner of The Stanley Park goal that Kevin Sheedy would have been proud of.

Dave,

Not meant to sound ignorant or daft but could the ball be curled into anywhere them days with the weight of it. From the 70s onwards, I know and seen it done as it's more familiar with today's ball.

Cracking game just finished:

Sheff Utd v Burnley

Lots of decisions the VAR would have got involved in and changed but with no VAR, great memories of proper football!

Brian M, I know the question was aimed at Dave A, but being a Golfer and having played Snooker and Billiards in the past, both using relatively solid balls (Snooker moreso) players of yesteryear could produce a lot of side-spin which influenced the ball either through the air or on the Green Baize.

So I see no reason why it should not apply to the older game of football, which as you rightly say used a much heavier ball as opposed to the beach balls of today.

I remember reading a book about Edson Arantes, and in it, it talked about why the Brazilians called putting curl or spin on the ball, “a bit of English.” This was because the first time they'd ever seen anyone doing this, was when they had watched the touring English football teams play.

Sheedy was sublime during the period he played central midfield, Christy, but he was also sublime on the left (incredible for a man with such limited pace) and when I shut my eyes, I can still visualise Everton's wonderful quartet, that all complimented each other, in different ways.

Great players, help to make a team better, but good team players, who can complement each other, often help to make a team become great. I'm looking forward to tonight's match, I hope it's a good game, and Everton can continue to keep improving, even though I'm not convinced that our present system, is really complimenting our current squad.

Bran,

Yes plenty of footballers could put spin on the ball or curl it as I called it; Tommy Ring was one of them and he did it better than most.

Tommy could do anything with a ball, make it talk even, his ability with it said plenty to me, a better dribbler with the ball than the fabled Stanley Mathews, a great pity he only played about 30 games for the Blues after breaking his leg at Chelsea.

Older posters will remember a little Brazilian genius called Garrincha (little bird). Who many Brazilians rated better than Pele. He was bending balls before bending balls was invented.

Unfortunately that wasn't the only type of bender he liked. Drank himself to death.

I read a biography of Garrincha a couple of years ago. Poor guy never really had a chance. He was essentially illiterate, and an alcoholic almost from childhood -- his alcoholic father got him started. He even ran over his dad with a car.

He lacked ambition or any real financial sense and was an easy sucker for scammers. But many historians believe he was the greatest genius with the ball at his feet who ever stepped onto a pitch.

Legendary womanizer too Mike.

He crammed a fair bit into his short life

I'm not sure we get to January and solve our forward issues. Firstly, January is notoriously a difficult window to do any business in and secondly we are after a striker. If we are bringing in someone I expect them to be either from the lower leagues or some cheap option on loan. Not a game changer.

Just in terms of clean sheets, we were extremely fortunate not to concede against both West Ham and Liverpool.

The bottom line is, apart from Pickford – who has saved us a good few points already – we have bang average Bottom 10 Premier League players. Expecting them now to start playing above their ability is asking to be disappointed.

We have had the same scenario for season upon season with more managers than I have had hot dinners with the same outcome.

Apart from Lukaku in his prime, we only buy cast-offs that the top teams don't want or others that they again deem not good enough for them.

It's obvious that if we don't buy a very decent striker or two – and that's not going to be easy – we are in serious trouble.

It would be typical Everton to spend either our last season at Goodison Park or our first at Bramley-Moore Dock (or both) in the Championship, having spent longer than anyone in the top tier.

I know I tend to be a pessimistic Blue but I don't easily get swept up in euphoria when we sign the likes of Onana, McNeil etc. People purring over a Gana, Garner and Onana as midfield prospects and how we've signed leaders takes me back to Koeman's spending spree. Too many false dawns that I can remember.

That performance on Saturday was reminiscent of the home games during lockdown. The team looked flat and the crowd were edgy. Some Everton games you can just tell the outcome by the first 10 or 15 minutes.

The top teams score 2 goals from those two glorious chances. That is the difference. We are one of the worst teams in the league for attacking options. I think the likes of Wolves, Forest, Villa, Leeds look better than us as an attacking threat. It's worrying. Again.

Just looking at a couple of stats and I know they can be interpreted in different ways depending on your opinion.

We have won 3 of 14 and only the bottom 2 have won less.
Only 2 teams have scored less goals again it's the bottom 2 in the league.
Apart from the top 3 teams we have the best goals against record in the league.
According to the stats we have created 17 good goal scoring chances and that is 14th in the league.
Iwobi has most assists with 6 nobody else has more than 1.
Gordon is top goal scorer with 3 McNeil is next with 2 and none of the others has more than 1.

Craig,

I don't think you are being pessimistic with your post, it seems a practical and realistic way of looking at the shape Everton are in at the moment.

Frank has to improve that shape in the few games we have before January and Mr Thelwell has to find two or three forwards in January that will improve the squad because, with the present squad and the way they are being asked to play, the Championship next season is a very real possibility.

I can't help but agree with a previous comment.

If we'd have kept Simms and Warrington, and not signed Maupay and McNeil, we'd be no worse off on the pitch, and we'd have 㿏 million to play with in January.

I see David Ornstein, a much respected journalist, has just said that FSG have put Liverpool up for sale and Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley are helping with the valuation.

I just read that following a ping from The Athletic, Brian.

And also, go Carlo!!

I see all the ducks are lining up for the shite.

A Champions League revenge win over Real Madrid in the offing to give them a storming end to the season and almost certainly a mega wealthy oil nation to buy out FSG.

Dear lord, why persecute us so?

Look on the bright side, Barry, surely the devil must be getting fed up with our neighbours, after having them in his pocket for so long?

Barry, on the other hand they're cutting away and cashing in while they can.

In a parallel universe, Real & Carlo will see them off. They'll struggle to challenge Man City and Arsenal and Salad is approaching his best before date. St Virgil's legs are going and Klopp's teeth have an eye on the exit door and Germany job. Possibly Bayern.

Meanwhile, I've just watched the latest video update on the Whale with a tail (only way I can describe the new stadium logo).

Forget the disappointment of the last match. We're coming back. Taking back our City. The bird is blue.

The thing that worries me is the upcoming January transfer window, not who we will try to get but who will make determined bids for one or more of our players.

If I was a manager looking for the top 6 and a position in Europe, the first thing I would be looking at would be defensive qualities starting with a keeper and Everton have one of the best keepers in the league, who I think if he has a good World Cup, then Man Utd may call, and we all know the attention that Gordon is getting.

I am not sure what other supporters think but I think we have a Jekyll and Hyde team and the next Premier League game and the upcoming December games are starting to look like potential 6-point games with practically half the season over.

The players in our squad and youth teams should be capable of a 10th to 14th position in the league, and the majority would accept this for this season, but a team needs direction and this is where a manager comes in.

All managers, similar to tradespeople, go through an apprenticeship period, learning their chosen vocation until becoming competent in their chosen profession. Some become average, some become good and still learning, and some become excellent.

Everton should be aiming at an excellent level of manager but, if unable, a good one – and to me this is the standard that Lampard is at, good but still learning.

To become excellent, he will have to learn from his mistakes, and that includes team selection, match management, that includes tactical changes during the game and usage of substitutions, and failing in this, he will never become the excellent manager that Everton need.

I don't know what other people feel but, unless Lampard starts learning quickly, he will just remain at the good level, that is below a Top 6 in the Premier League, especially if – as Everton upper management claim – they are an ambitious club.

If Martinez comes back then it will be the full circle of the Magic Roundabout. Moshiri and Kenwright will be say goodnight to the folks, Gracie, and time for bed said Zebedee.

Seeing the Brazil squad; I still feel sick to the stomach that it reads Richarlison (Tottenham Hotspur). It's like when Robbie Williams left Take That to join Robbie Williams

Not me, Michael. Wish him nothing but the best and I'm glad that injury didn't keep him out -- he was sobbing when he limped off a couple of games ago.

His family posted this celebration video (watch the baby in the background):

Richarlison allays Tottenham injury concerns with brilliant video to Brazil World Cup squad

I really thought that the VAR would have intervened in that Champions League draw. The Video Assisted Re-draw, after all, didn't Bingo want Porto, and Bingo gets what Bingo wants!

Sorry, Mike, missed communication – I too wish Richarlison all the success he deserves, and that's everything. I'm just gutted he left us for Spurs.

Let's be honest, it's not all about transfer windows. It's about getting a system the players are comfortable with and making average players good and good players even better. It's called coaching. Basic things like woeful set-pieces is not acceptable.

Words of wisdom at this early hour, Brian.

We do need further investment in the squad, but you are right, you can only work with what you have, so you have to figure out how to get the best out of it.

Coaching, especially with now having a lot of young players. And playing a system that suits the players you have at your disposal. Not playing the system you want to with the players you have.

When Lampard took over, Everton were 15th. 32 games later, we are 16th. How much longer is this pantomime going to continue?

Villa, Southampton and Wolves have all sacked their managers in order to try to stay up. Villa and Wolves have already tried to rectify the issues by bringing in experienced proven managers.

Meanwhile, Everton persist with a manager and expensive entourage that have done nothing.

There is no manager in existence who could take over from Frank Lampard and make all present Everton players pass the ball to each other consistently.

Steavey, at this point, I'd even take the players from the end of the Harvey era when we had the likes of Sharp, Newell, Nevin, even McDonald in midfield. They all had fight in them.

Sacking the manager again just isn't an option but the fact that it's being talked about is a sad indictment of this football club and what it's become under the Chairman.

Final nail in the coffin for me if we do. The irony being that Marco Silva and “little” Fulham are 5 points ahead of us and made us look like amateurs a couple of weeks ago.

We've been turned into a complete joke by fucking Kenwright & Co yet the blind happy clappers in the support still can't see the problem.

I don't think any of us want to contemplate having to look for another manager, but I think Frank and his coaches have to start getting results and quickly. We are practically in the same position in the Premier League as we were when Frank took over.

Last season, he admitted he played a style that he didn't want to but had very little option, and I think we all agreed by-and-large with that. But having signed 8 players in the summer, I was expecting a very different Everton from last season, with the new signings and Frank and his coaches having had a full pre-season with the players.

I said losing Richarlison would be a huge hole to fill and, for whatever reason, until Calvert-Lewin got injured, he seemed quite happy in not recruiting another striker. We started the season with Gordon playing as a false 9 and he only went and bought a striker after 4 or 5 games.

I can only assume the delay was because he was trying to secure a loan deal for Broja which never materialised. I think even Frank's biggest supporters aren't happy with our style of football and, given the type of player Frank was, it's even more incredible that his team plays so negatively.

I just hope that he turns things around and we start moving away from the relegation zone; otherwise, with a 6-week break coming before our next league game, Moshiri may decide this is the ideal time to replace Frank.

I really hope not but lose to Bournemouth in the league could be the deciding factor. Let's remember, Frank wasn't Moshiri's choice but he went along with the fans' wishes.

The summer recruitment was dreadful again. An improvement to the defence, but the issues of goals from the strikers and from midfield were simply not addressed.

Thelwell has been a big disappointment. It's the lack of goals that is killing us. Gueye may well not score another goal in his career. Why we signed Vinagre is a complete mystery.

Clive - what rumours?

Sack the manager? Now, there's a novel idea.

Some players, Demarai Gray the latest, have been dropping interesting bits of information into the public sphere.

About a year ago, on one of those appalling, fawning football shows that 5 Live specialises in these days, Seamus Coleman was asked what he, as a great role model, expects from the other players; just to show the same determination, he replied and ‘to turn up on time.'

Turn up on time?

Now Gray reveals fights in training – even 'Dom had one'.
Reading between the lines (dangerous, I know), the great Carlo was so laid back he wasn't bothered what time players turned up, and under Rafa, team spirit was so bad that there were regular fights in training!

It's no great revelation to say that this was, and still is, a dysfunctional club – a mess – that deserved to go down this season.

It will take years to put right the mistakes of the last 7 years but positive steps have been taken; there is a good management team in place who seem to have no illusions and speak honestly about the situation. The team has changed for the better. It's going to be an unpredictable ride and a long one.

Only lunatics would change the manager (and his team) now. Thankfully, we have a wise, experienced and knowledgeable board in place.

And just remember what our Dear Leader said, "When other teams have a problem, they ask, 'What would Everton do?'" Then, when they have picked themselves up off the floor and stopped laughing, they do the opposite.

Kim,

Ferdinand and Howson on Five podcast among others. May not be much in it but Moshiri is a panicker. Relegation could well cost him his fortune.

Why does it always take Everton Football Club so long to sort itself out though? That's surely the million-dollar question here right?

Newcastle looked doomed to relegation this time last season; one year on, the club has transformed itself immensely with one or two really shrewd buys but thus far spent nowhere near what we have in the last 5 years.

Leicester's start to the season was horrendous but they already look like a team that we won't finish anywhere near again this season.

Why always at Everton does everything take 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 years?

At what point do we stop looking back to Martinez and Koeman and start looking at the present and everything that's wrong now and what can we do to visibly become much better?

How many clubs sit here now and harp back to 2016 and say "That's why we are shit now"?

Let's make something happen NOW!!!

Jim,

Newcastle owe us a big thanks as no doubt they looked at us as a barometer not to do things when you have money.

They got in people on and crucially off the pitch who know what they are doing with no hint of any hangers on.

Anyway here's to a narrow penalty spot kick win, I hope, for the young lads giving their all in support tonight and no doubt the weekend.,

Jim,

Read your first line again mate, and then think about it. It's not hard, if you do mate, the answer is staring us in the face, like that picture above the ticket office on Goodison Rd.

Jim,

This is easily explained by the culture of the football club. And the culture under the leadership of Kenwright has turned from a team unhappy at not competing for trophies in the top half of the table to one of being a “smashing little family club” where it's nice and cosy and winning doesn't really matter, you know, ‘cos we're little Everton and he would rather keep his mates in opposing boardrooms happy than winning and upsetting the status quo.

Liverpool Football Club turn up every fucking game and they expect to win because it's demanded of them, and the players have to put that effort in or they will be gone. Rooney admitted as much when he was talking about the difference being at Everton and Man Utd.

If you lost a game at Everton, the players still went out and had a piss-up. Not at Man Utd!!

That's the reality and if you think it's bollocks you only have to look at what that fucking massive dickhead has said in the recent past…. not only have we had some good times ( = 1 Cup Final we lost) but other clubs look to his example of leadership when times are tough.

Until you get rid of Kenwright and all the rest of them just happy to have jobs cos they suck up to the regime, then nothing will change. Period.

Why do you think the likes of Southall aren't welcome? Or they go and ban AGMs to stop supporters asking difficult questions? The likes of Sharp and Co should be fucking ashamed being associated with this utterly deplorable regime.

Nick.

I feel for Sharpy a bit because I'm sure he loves the club but in a rock or hard place as he hasn't the heart or the balls or it's not his place to say anything.

Another very astute acquisition, by the way, so your mate is not as daft as he looks and picks his staff very carefully.

I've said about Big Nev and his position many times as to why he's not welcome. He just doesn't recognise or accept this version of Everton. His sit-down protest was just the tip of the iceberg for him.

Denis, please don't memories of Tom Davies at QPR last season.

Nick and Brian, I don't feel sorry for Greame Sharp at all. About 16/17 years ago in the boring low-scoring days of Moyes, Greame was briefly sat next to me in the Brian Labone suite (I think).

I asked Greame (being friendly) his thoughts on the slow brand of football we play and the lack of goals. He looked at me then spoke to someone else on the table. That's rude in my book.

It's a shame he's a Kenwright puppy, my admiration has gone. Give me Big Nev any day.

Nick/Joe,

I was too young to notice Sharpy much when he was good. I just recall him as a lumbering giant who seldom scored.

I would tear my hair out when Kendall Mk II would play with Sharpie as a lone striker. Immobile, slow, about as menacing as a squashed butterfly.

In the mid-80s we played Bournemouth in a League Cup game at the then Dean Court. Colin Harvey was outside with the kit man very early in the day. Quite a few blues were milling about and he didn't understand why so many blues, especially that time of day, were there.

I told him close to 10,000 scousers live here, thanks to Norman Tebbit's "On yer bike" scheme... Maggies children. Different times. Oh and our fans mostly didn't pay, they burst in a gate and were then escorted to the away end. Those were the days, my friend.

I don't post often, but I need to get this off my chest... I've just been reading that FSG may be valuing LFC at $3-4BN, having bought the club for c.$350M... and thinking that if only the "ring-fenced" 㿊M had been made available (if it ever existed, of course?!), the tale of the city's two top-tier clubs could have been so different.

Oh well, not the time to be bitter or maudlin, time to get behind the manager and players. And time for Mr Kenwright to bow out.

COYB!!

Joe.

Yes, all of the above.

The Moshiri era will be remembered for a series of bad decisions a load of money wasted and a new stadium. Arsenal couldn't build their new stadium and maintain their place at the very top.

We were used to midtable mediocrity with the odd euro hope and the odd slip down the table. Now we shop at Primark and are becoming relegation worriers.

Our players are simply not good enough. We win now and again and the home crowd drag us over the line. Frank needs time and more transfer windows to give himself a chance but his poor selections, subs and tactics are undoing his attempts to play good football.

Moshiri simply can't afford relegation. He is looking for a buyer and the price would drop considerably if we succumbed to the unthinkable.

That trip to Oz could give the club a window to bring in yet another coach. These next two games will make or break Frank Lampard.

It's really not a tactically or conceptually difficult game. If you have the ball, you all move forward with it and get in their box. And vice versa – get back and fucking defend if you haven't. No standing around.

You're paid more than most people earn in a lifetime for a year's work which involves kicking a ball around and some running. For a few hours a week. So get to fuck with the moaning, it's one of the single greatest privileges there is.

But the reason we look like we have 2 less players on the pitch at any one time is because the players get stretched out of position and are all over the pitch. That's tactically poor management, and Finch Farm needs to get the team into a unit that moves around together not individually.

Forgive me. Still trying to heal from last night's traumatic experience.

I guess we're going to need a separate World Cup thread, so apologies for putting this one here.

As if last night wasn't bad enough, my nemesis, BBC Breakfast has decided to suddenly start questioning the rights of the Qatar World Cup, 11 days before the event, and whether we should watch it.

Okay, for once I don't necessarily disagree. But being outraged 11 days before?

You''ll have to give me safe space today blues. I'm hurting. Be gentle with me.