Another clean sheet for Pickford as England top Group B

29/11/2022 149comments  |  Jump to last
World Cup: Day 10

As the final round of group games got underway in Qatar, Idrissa Gueye and Senegal booked their place in the knockout phase with a 2-1 win over Ecuador ahead while England made comfortable work of Wales.

It sets up a meeting between the two Everton players' nations in the Round of 16 but Gueye will be ineligible for the clash between the Three Lions and the Lions of Teranga after he picked up his second booking of the tournament.

Gueye missed one of the best chances of the first half when he blazed wide of goal when well-placed but Ismaela Sarr gave the African champions the lead from the spot just before half-time after Piero Hincapie had barrelled him over in the box.

The South Americans, who needed at least a point to progress, levelled through Brighton midfielder Moises Caicedo but Senegal hit back less than three minutes later when Chelsea's Kalidou Koulibaly volleyed home neatly following a set-piece to send the Africans through as the second-place team in Group A behind the Netherlands.

Article continues below video content

The Dutch comfortably saw off hosts Qatar by a 2-0 scoreline in the other game courtesy of goals by Cody Gakpo and Frenkie de Jong to set up a clash with the United States in the next round.

The Americans needed to beat Iran in order to progress and they did just that, edging the Middle Easterners by Christian Pulisic's first-half strike.

Wales needed a miracle to avoid their tournament ending early but they had little chance of upsetting Gareth Southgate's enigmatic England side who rolled to a 3-0 victory thanks to an excellent free-kick from Marcus Rashford and goals from Phil Foden and another for Rashford to wrap things up.

15:00 Netherlands 2 - 0 Qatar – ITV 1
15:00 Ecuador 1 - 2 Senegal – ITV 4
19:00 Wales 0 - 3 England – BBC 1
19:00 Iran 1 - 0 USA – BBC 2


Reader Comments (149)

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Martin Reppion
1 Posted 29/11/2022 at 09:17:42
The broadcasters and players all seem unsure as to the qualifying criteria for England and Wales tonight.
The situation is not as cut and dried as it could be but I think I've done the maths right.

England win. They win the group and Wales are out.
Draw. England qualify. They win the group if Iran draw with USA.
England lose by up to 3 goals. They qualify. Wales qualify if Iran v USA is a draw.
England lose by 4 or 5, Wales qualify. England qualify if Iran v USA is a draw.
England lose by 6 or more. None of them ever step foot in this country again.

Danny O’Neill
2 Posted 29/11/2022 at 09:31:41
Barring a bizarre sequence of events, England are already through.

Had to switch BBC Breakfast off earlier than usual this morning. Even by my own grumpy standards.

If being told daily that the world is a bad place and we're all doomed isn't bad enough, watching Sally Nugent and her sidekick trying to be knowledgable about football is a painful watch.

Okay, I'll give Sally her due, she was a Sports correspondent prior to taking up the primary role. But that happy clapper next to her, who has probably never kicked a football in his life winds me. Clearly talking to his brief and notes.

Sorry. I shouldn't watch BBC Breakfast as I keep getting told.

I'm going for England (already practically through) and USA today.

Joe McMahon
3 Posted 29/11/2022 at 09:47:13
Agree Danny, also Sally has also aided in supporting MND over the years, particularly Robb Burrow and Doddie Weir. Along with Kevin Sinfield of course.
Martin Reppion
4 Posted 29/11/2022 at 09:53:36
Kevin Sinfield has to be this year's Sports Personality of the Year.
What he has put himself through to raise funds and awareness for that most cruel of diseases is genuinely awe inspiring.
He has done it because of what he sees happening to his friend, Rob Burrows, and his commitment has been inspirational.
Jerome Shields
5 Posted 29/11/2022 at 10:09:25
Hope the Welsh give them a shock and push them out of their comfort zone.
Danny O’Neill
6 Posted 29/11/2022 at 10:16:15
That's a great point Joe. A close friend of mine died of that terrible disease back in 2015. She's done a lot with Doddy and Rob Burrow to promote awareness. As for Kevin Sinfield, nothing but respect of the highest order.

I need to stop watching BBC Breakfast. It's making me sound like Darren.

It needs to be Boxing Day.

Dave Abrahams
7 Posted 29/11/2022 at 11:31:06
Martin (4), I understand your praise of Kevin Sinfield which he richly deserves but I think what he has done for his friend Rob Burrows comes in a different much higher class than Sports Personality of the Year,maybe Humanitarian of the Year would be more appropriate in this case, what a friend he has been to Rob and his family.
Mark Ryan
8 Posted 29/11/2022 at 12:06:50
Another guy challenging Kevin to that crown might be Gary McKee who lives in Cumbria. Working full time at Sellafield he is running a Marathon every day this year for Macmillan Nurses and Hospice care. His Dad was taken by Cancer some years ago and without much coverage in the National press he is raising hundreds of thousands year on year for Macmillan. He met up with Kevin Sinfield for his 323rd Marathon. Kev was doing 7 in 7 that week. Inspirational stuff. Hats off to them 👏 What Kev is doing for MND awareness is, to quote Bobby Brown Shoes, " phenomenal "
Danny O’Neill
9 Posted 29/11/2022 at 12:13:27
Do you have a link Mark?

Close to my heart. I lost my mother aged 59 in 2007. We buried her 2 weeks before I went to Afghanistan. The following year, my father went. Both to cancer.

I'm always willing to give to good causes.

Lighthearted, but I give enough to the Everton cause!!

Let me know.

Mark Ryan
10 Posted 29/11/2022 at 13:38:51
He's doing his 333rd today.
Imagine doing a Marathon after a full day's work. Then imagine doing it for a week. A full year is mind blowing isn't it
He's due to finish New Year's Eve obviously but what an effort, cheers Danny
Kieran Kinsella
11 Posted 29/11/2022 at 13:53:33
When was the last time England ever lost 4-0 to a crap team? Oh wait, Hungary a few months ago.
Mike Gaynes
12 Posted 29/11/2022 at 15:27:12
Not being a rugby fan, I'd never heard of Kevin Sinfield. These posts caused me to look him up. Wow. What a remarkable human being.

Likewise Gary McKee. That there are people like this in the world makes it impossible for me to maintain my usual cynicism about the human race. Inspirational.

Matthew Williams
13 Posted 29/11/2022 at 17:35:03
Kevin Sinfield should be knighted!...what a guy!...a true British hero.

If the Boyo's win tonight and we get passed the mancs in the Cup then I'll gladly buy every ToffeeWebber a pint and I'll fully enjoy doing so too... believe me Blues!!

Neil Lawson
14 Posted 29/11/2022 at 18:06:12
That's brave Matthew. Wales maybe. Us. Never. !!
Interesting that Southgate has named Foden. Convinced he wouldn't. Open now to claims that the public and the media are picking the team. Hoping Foden does well which would, of course, get Southgate off the hook. Watching in an Irish bar in Bruges!!.
Jamie Crowley
15 Posted 29/11/2022 at 18:06:46
I’m shittin’ my pants right now.
Jamie Crowley
16 Posted 29/11/2022 at 18:18:29
Why do you change the CB pairing not having conceded a goal from open play Berhalter??? 😡😡
Kieran Kinsella
17 Posted 29/11/2022 at 18:23:56
Interesting given the game today but 2021 census results:

"National self-perception has also shifted noticeably in the last decade. While just 19.1% of residents identified as “British only” in 2011, that number had surged to 54.8% by 2021, largely at the expense of the “English only” identity, which collapsed from 57.7% to 14.9% in the same period."

I am wondering if the 2012 Olympics helped to boost the idea of Britishness? Also the Brexit? I have always thought of myself as English as opposed to British personally.

Kieran Kinsella
18 Posted 29/11/2022 at 18:30:13

Zimmerman is a liability.

Jamie Crowley
19 Posted 29/11/2022 at 18:45:43
Kieran -

I like Zimmerman. He's an old fashioned CB. Berhalter wants CBs who play out of the back - not Z's strength. if not asked to do that, he's solid.

Jamie Crowley
20 Posted 29/11/2022 at 18:53:28
USA fans outside the Fox studio chanting:

"It's called soccer!"

I'm sorry, I find that hilarious.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
21 Posted 29/11/2022 at 18:57:41
Well, that's a blow. Hoping Senegal would be knocked out and then Idrissa would be back next week.
Jamie Crowley
22 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:00:14
I also like Carter-Vickers it should be said. But I'd not have changed the pairing.
Kieran Kinsella
23 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:01:18
What a boring game this is, England v Wales.
Kieran Kinsella
24 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:06:02
Nice. We are just going to pass it around at the back again for 10 minutes to get it started.
Mike Gaynes
25 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:15:04
Jamie, I haven't seen much of C-V but Zimmerman's passing has been an absolute disaster, and I understand the change. It was sheer luck and Adams' coverage that Zim's turnovers didn't result in a goal by England.
Michael Kenrick
26 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:19:18
Stupid. Four players around the free-kick. Why?
Jamie Crowley
27 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:21:21
USA playing too slowly!
Mike Gaynes
28 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:24:25
I was just about to say that I really like how quickly the US is moving the ball.
Jamie Crowley
29 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:25:39
Mike - McKenney and Adams holding it too long. Back line holding it too long. Quicker play needed.
Kim Vivian
30 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:29:11
Interesting thread this with commentary on two games. I'm channel hopping but may have to media stack.
Mike Gaynes
31 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:31:10
Antonee Robinson is the best left back in USA history. What a game he is having.
Bill Gall
32 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:34:03
Nice shot by Maguire pity someone moved the goal
Tony Everan
33 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:36:04
30 minutes of injury time this half?
Mike Gaynes
34 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:37:28
Pulisic is such a complete disaster on corners.
Mike Gaynes
35 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:39:10
Jamie Crowley
36 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:39:42
YESSSSSSS!!!! BUT FUUUUCKKKKK!!! Pulisic is hurt!
Jamie Crowley
37 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:40:30
Mike Gaynes
38 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:41:08
Total commitment from Pulisic. Reyna and Aaronson warming up.
Mike Gaynes
39 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:46:02
Too many passes on a 2-on-1. What a chance.
Jamie Crowley
40 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:54:22
Good half. Started slow probing. Dominating now.

I'd replace Weah and put Reyna in. Happy.


Andrew McLawrence
41 Posted 29/11/2022 at 19:57:27
Don't know which match the pundits are watching, but England and Wales are both crap!
Mike Gaynes
42 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:02:28
No subs now, thank you. Wait and see whether Pulisic can play with his cracked cashews. May need Reyna on for him.
Mike Gaynes
43 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:07:34
Aaronson on for Pulisic.
Dave Abrahams
44 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:07:45
“ Over there, over there, Oh the Yanks are coming, Oh the Yanks are coming, Mike and Jamie are coming Over There!!
Jamie Crowley
45 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:08:36
Pulisic out. Pray to God he's ok
Bill Gall
46 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:11:06
What a free kick by Ratchford
Mike Gaynes
47 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:11:29
He'll never have children, Jamie.
Jamie Crowley
48 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:11:47
Jamie Crowley
49 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:13:01
Mike - yup. Nasty place to take a knee.

Ingurland AGAIN! Amazing what happens when you play Foden!

Bill Gall
50 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:13:27
What the hell did England have at half-time?

I need some of that when I wake up in the morning!

Michael Kenrick
51 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:23:53
Stones doing his best to beat Pickford.

That was a tremendous reaction save. His arms were just long enough!

Michael Kenrick
52 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:32:28
Iran having a lot more of the ball now…

You Yankee boys must be getting just a little nervous. All it takes is one goal….

Mike Gaynes
53 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:34:42
GETTING nervous? I've been nervous since Sunday.
Jamie Crowley
54 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:38:16
USA now looking like they're protecting. Don't like it. Also need subs. Fresh legs.
Tony McNulty
55 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:42:03
Jamie and Mike - you are becoming overly concerned. Presumably too much watching Everton has inculcated a state of anxiety about the prospects for your team
Mike Gaynes
56 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:43:58
Tony, watching the USA has the same effect of building apprehension.

Final subs, Jamie.

Jamie Crowley
57 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:44:46
3 CBs on for USA. Do NOT like this at all
Jamie Crowley
58 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:46:26
Tony -

We're now parking a bus where one doesn't need to be parked!

Dangerous stuff m'man!!!

Mike Gaynes
59 Posted 29/11/2022 at 20:49:45
Only danger for the US is set pieces. Having that extra head may be important.
Mike Gaynes
60 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:03:11
Jamie Crowley
61 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:03:55
YESSSSSSS!!!!!!! Jesus I died 100 times.
Tony McNulty
62 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:04:31
Well done US. Mike/Jamie, Plenty of your compatriots will suddenly be showing more of an interest in soccerball over the next few days
James Flynn
63 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:04:40
The Invincibles!
Kieran Kinsella
64 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:05:11
Blimey that was the lamest shout for a penalty at the end there from Iran but for a moment I thought the ref was going to buy it.
Mike Gaynes
65 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:06:17
That's good enough for me, baby. I don't give a shit what happens from here.

Jamie, I didn't like seeing Zim come on either, but by my count he had eight headed clearances in 19 minutes.

Jamie Crowley
66 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:07:52

I've said before, I like Zimmerman. I really do. He was immense coming on. Fantastic.

But I didn't like the tactics. We stopped trying to get forward at around the 75th. We're NOT Italy FFS! Terrible tactics. They worked though, fuck it.

Jamie Crowley
67 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:09:53
Zero goals from open play. Like that for sure.
Mike Gaynes
68 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:14:40
Jamie, I didn't like it either, but it was obvious that everybody was outta gas. Where Berhalter screwed up was subbing in Moore and Wright instead of Yedlin and Ferreira -- Moore is a child and Wright couldn't press a necktie -- but it worked out.

With Pulisic and Sargent out, I look forward to a new look front line on Saturday. And I don't care if we get beat or not.

Peter Mills
69 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:18:56
Very pleased for you American gentlemen.
Jamie Crowley
70 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:21:05
Tony and Peter - thank you! Thrilled to be through.

Let's see if we can smash Holland. That would be amazing.

Praying Pulisic recovers, we need him.

Kieran Kinsella
71 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:24:27
Looks like England are certain to win the World Cup:


Tom Bowers
72 Posted 29/11/2022 at 21:56:14
Some games are up for grabs right to the end and nervousness does kick in when the margin is so close.

However, the two best teams got through as expected and the real stuff starts now.

Senegal without Mane and now Gueye for the next game will still be a tough one. Expect a penalty shootout.

Southgate is winging it and is stubborn with his faves.

They have, as expected gone through in an easy group.

Cannot see them getting past the semifinals though.

Mike Gaynes
73 Posted 29/11/2022 at 22:08:04
Pete, there are no American gentlemen. But thank you.
James Flynn
74 Posted 29/11/2022 at 22:21:44
Peter (69) - Kind words.

Thank you.

Bill Gienapp
75 Posted 29/11/2022 at 22:59:20
I'm a lot less invested in the US team than Mike and Jamie (mostly only pay attention to them during the World Cup), but that was a sweeeeeet victory... and a pretty torturous final 30 minutes or so (good thing Everton has strengthened my testicular fortitude over the years).

If a casual watches that match and complains that "nothing happened," they'll never understand the sport.

The Dutch are tough, but beatable. We're playing with house money now. Go for it, boys!

Jerome Shields
76 Posted 29/11/2022 at 23:35:45
England v Wales was a dreadful match to watch. My hope of a spirited Wales performance went after the first 5 minutes. Sadly, both Ramsey and Bale are gone as players. England improved in the second half, after a poor first half.

I changed to the USA game and wished I had have watched it all. Both teams put the effort in, but USA where better. I think the USA are more likely to win World Cup than England.

Billy Roberts
77 Posted 29/11/2022 at 23:54:42
Yes, of course, Jerome, because England only won 3-0 and they should have won 7-0. so USA will win the World Cup or get to the semis?

I look forward to more of your fantastic posts.

Mike Gaynes
78 Posted 30/11/2022 at 00:07:45
Watched the replay of the England game, and I've reached the conclusion that there are three unsolvable mysteries in the universe:

1. What's inside a black hole?

2. What is dark matter made of?

3. How could Mount have been starting ahead of Foden?

I'd say #3 is the biggest mystery of all.

Mike Gaynes
79 Posted 30/11/2022 at 00:12:27
Bill #75, the USA left blood on the tracks today. They could barely walk off. Holland had a relaxed kickaround.

I see an even game for 60 minutes, and then fatigue will take over.

Kieran Kinsella
80 Posted 30/11/2022 at 00:19:14

Because he's from London. Any time you get a half-decent Londoner, especially from Spurs but also now Chelsea, they get a free pass to the England team. Think Winks, Mason, Livermore. Northerners have to be exceptional to make the squad.

Ed Prytherch
81 Posted 30/11/2022 at 00:44:03

#1 collapsed atoms
#2 that's more of a mystery. Maybe the universe is awash in neutrinos
#3 Southgate has his head up his arse.

I chose to watch the USA game and record England, which turned out to be the right one.

Nationalism is fairly new to American sport outside of the Olympics. It is fun to see so many people who know little about football getting behind their team.

Mike Gaynes
82 Posted 30/11/2022 at 00:47:43
It really is, Ed. My honorary stepmom, who never watched before, has been watching every game (she's in love with Brazil) and her voice was cracking with excitement today.

I saw the same phenomenon when the World Cup was last played in the US in '94. I think that really turned the game around in the US. I think the next World Cup will be massive here.

Don Alexander
83 Posted 30/11/2022 at 01:33:28
Nearly thirty years ago I spent weeks in Arizona and because my two schoolboy nephews were in love with "soccer" I watched more than a few massively coached schoolboy games.

The touch-line "coaching" even drowned out the near hysterical mundanity spouted by family and friends also on the side-line.

The boys were robotically faithful to their coaches, and impressively so. Unfortunately all the coaches I saw were dead against any of their boys trying anything "off manual" by way of imaginative/exciting/thrilling football.

To me the States still embody many of those perfunctory qualities, unfortunately.

Don Alexander
84 Posted 30/11/2022 at 02:03:34
Moving on, I surely ponder our "most effective" rather than our "best" starting eleven.

To me, Foden is our best player… but he's conditioned to (sometimes) playing at his club with as good or better players than him.

For England, that's nowhere near the case, and so I think – despite his massive talent – he may be a cause-celebre too far because of a talent that lesser players cannot assimilate with, and that's sad for him and us.

All-in-all, I think we're average contenders in terms of winning the by now well poisoned "chalice" but, given the general banality of World Cup football thus far, who knows?

Julian Wait
85 Posted 30/11/2022 at 04:57:39
@Mike Gaynes - you may be right. Read "The Jazz of Physics" and you at least get an idea about #1 and #2 might be. It says nothing about Foden, or Mount, nor any other quarks of Southgate's selections.
Bill Gienapp
86 Posted 30/11/2022 at 05:29:42
Mike (79) - You're not wrong. We might consider adopting the strategy Japan used against Germany - rope-a-dope for a half, keep things tight, and then go for it (no idea why they attempted the same thing against Costa Rica of all teams and basically threw their World Cup away).
Danny O’Neill
87 Posted 30/11/2022 at 05:46:14
Did Wales actually turn up? Even stood amongst a London based England enthused support base, that was a difficult watch.

My only observation was Jordan Pickford not only coming out of his 6 yard box, but actually coming out of the box in it's entirety to receive the ball.

I suspect he'll be our next sale. But I also don't know where he would go.

Amazing what can happen if the team play a higher line.

Mike @10 – done.

Kieran, you probably know my thoughts given my British Isles mongrel background and serving under the Union Flag, I'm British. No such thing as English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish passport.

Pleased for the USA. My US, well Texan, colleagues are really bought into football (real football) right now, so I'm having some good banter with them online. They're getting brave!

Texans remind me of the US equivalent of Scots. A bit like Bavarians in Germany.

Jim Bennings
88 Posted 30/11/2022 at 06:09:56
Wales were an absolute embarrassment.

It reminded me of us going away to one of the top six in the Premier League.

Zero interest in trying to win the game and almost there to simply make up the numbers.

I hate teams that do that in football, the game is about entertainment and making yourselves a hero, writing names in folklore, but that kind of mentality just stinks to high heaven.

Darren Hind
89 Posted 30/11/2022 at 06:51:53
Mike 73

Grouchoesque. One of your better ones

Eddie Dunn
90 Posted 30/11/2022 at 07:49:45
I thought the BBC coverage of Wales v England was cringeworthy.

Stormzy and some Welsh rapper, and then the sudden discovery of Daf Iwan.
Then the praise for Speed and Coleman but no mention of Giggs... of course – it's Cancel Culture.

As for the game, Wales were too reliant on the old guard and Page's battle plan was to hang in and try and nick it late-on.

He should have fired them up and sent them out to go out on their shields.
England, on the other hand, are starting to gel.

I look forward to next week and Daara J rapping followed by Youssou N'Dour.

Danny O’Neill
91 Posted 30/11/2022 at 08:07:21
Don't start me on the BBC Breakfast football "experts", Eddie. I wish I had their wisdom. Nothing wrong with an airbrush from reality and ignoring facts. We know that closer to home.

Okay, they're now at their patronising best on what an "achievement" it was for Wales. Okay, qualifying for their first World Cup in decades was an achievement. But the reality:

Draw against USA with their only goal coming from a penalty.

Bombed against the footballing giant Iran, losing 2-0.

Just didn't show up against an England team that didn't need to step up above 2nd gear.

I don't know why I do it to myself (BBC).

I guess I could say that about Everton.

Like the fool I am, I'm sat watching and listening and being told that I'm turning into a grumpy old man, aged 51. Maybe I finally am!

Is it Boxing Day yet?

Lee Courtliff
92 Posted 30/11/2022 at 08:33:23
Congratulations to our American fans on here. Hope you do well in the knockout stages.
Andrew Clare
93 Posted 30/11/2022 at 08:44:45
I knew the England game would be a dreadful affair so I didn't watch.

Roll on Boxing Day. I only care about Everton and we are dreadful – just like England.

Kim Vivian
94 Posted 30/11/2022 at 08:49:11

If you're turning into a grumpy old bugger at 51, just give it 15 years and see what they're saying...!

I keep hearing about England's "triumph" over Wales...

I don't believe it!

Danny O’Neill
95 Posted 30/11/2022 at 08:58:29
I need Everton back, Kim. I know this sounds perverse and a contradiction in terms, but they keep me sane.
Lynn Maher
96 Posted 30/11/2022 at 09:46:49
Danny, not sure if you know… Sally from BBC Breakfast TV, supports our not very nice neighbours from across the park!
Lynn Maher
97 Posted 30/11/2022 at 09:52:48
And she certainly doesn’t hide it when they win.
Brian Harrison
98 Posted 30/11/2022 at 09:56:51
Well, seems that this inter-passing between centre-backs which achieves nothing seems to be permeating all English clubs; certainly in the first 25 minutes of most games, this ridiculous ritual seems now to be the norm.

Thankfully in the 2nd half, England started to move the ball through the lines at pace and what a refreshing difference it made. I think this is the best squad England have had for decades and, if Southgate does eventually let them off the leash, I think this team are capable of great things.

Defensively, they are as good as any squad out here and I would think we have more options in midfield and upfront than many of our rivals. When you think Foden, Grealish, Walker, Arnold, and Rashford didn't start the first game shows the depth in this squad.

I also think Henderson makes a difference when he comes on – not only what he does but the effect he has on the other players – and you can't buy experience.

So looking forward to the game with Senegal and just hope Southgate lets them play like they did in the 2nd half. I don't think any of the other teams would relish playing this England team.

Ernie Baywood
99 Posted 30/11/2022 at 09:59:19
I don't think the decision to largely go with Mount is that big a mystery. He's solid, he puts in a shift, he's accountable as a midfielder... and at the Group Stage, it's all about doing a solid job and not making the kind of mistakes that put you on the back foot for qualifying. England played pretty dull stuff and then put the foot down in spells.

9 goals, 2 clean sheets, top of the group with qualification practically ensured ahead of the third match. A range of forwards getting goals to kick off their tournament. (Kane is just on assists at the moment but I don't think we need to worry about him.)

I think Southgate will be pretty happy with how things are going. They've done exactly what they needed to do.

Whether they're up to the sterner challenges ahead is another question, but they've given themselves every chance so far.

Michael Lynch
100 Posted 30/11/2022 at 10:02:15
Stroll in the park for England, but it still looks an average team with a couple of exceptional players. I think Don's observation about Foden might be correct – he's not used to playing with a bunch of mediocre plodders, under a mediocre plodder of a manager.

I'm still enjoying this World Cup, there's been enough in it to keep me interested, but the pundits have been a new level of unwatchable. And now I see they're dragging Stormzy out to lecture us about something – I don't know what, because I've taken to just turning the sound up when the teams come out onto the pitch. Half-time, it's get the kettle on; full-time, I switch off before they start spouting bollocks again.

You get more sense about the match spoken on ToffeeWeb, and that's astonishing considering what a bunch of knobheads post on here, eh?

Dave Abrahams
101 Posted 30/11/2022 at 10:55:54
I loved the enthusiasm of Mike and Jamie cheering their team home. I was with them all the way wishing their team on to victory. I'd switched over after Wales had given England two goals after the brilliant free kick from the Man Utd striker.

On to the later stages, I think there is a mixed bag of decent teams. I don't see a great team, and England can win it. If they do win it, I hope they do it with style, but they can't do that with Southgate so may the best team win it.

I can never get excited watching England and I got more worked up wanting the USA to win last night than I have done for England. The thought of how the media will react to an England World Cup win is not worth thinking about after their reaction to a previous semi-final appearance, not to mention the European final one, which they lost after beating average teams to get to that position.

Danny O’Neill
102 Posted 30/11/2022 at 11:20:10
Agree with that sentiment Dave. I don't do the England thing even though I'm literally surrounded by it down here. Pleased for the USA and, politics aside, enjoying the competition.

England have a chance. I still fancy France, Brazil or Spain, in that order. But I don't bet. However, England have a chance.

Lynn, you've just given me another reason to grumble at the BBC in the morning!!

Brian Harrison
103 Posted 30/11/2022 at 11:55:57
Danny 102

" I don't do the England thing", I really don't get why ENGLISH born and bread don't support their national team. I don't care what sport whether its Cricket or Rugby or any other sport I always want England to win.
Have you never listened to the Irish, Welsh and Scots talk about hating England. I always find it great especially when we beat Scotland had to listen to someone playing the bagpipes this morning to celebrate St Andrews day. Yet come St Georges day nothing, in fact you would think St Patrick was the patron Saint of England the way this country goes overboard about it.

Think some are getting more like that lot across the park booing the National anthem. I would much prefer our National anthem be Jerusalem but how do you boo your own countries National anthem.

Steve Brown
105 Posted 30/11/2022 at 12:28:54
Agree Danny, the whole 'Ingerland', 'it's coming home' vibe is a turn off.
Rob Jones
106 Posted 30/11/2022 at 12:35:21
Brian, you talk with that "I'm so pleased to put them in their place" attitude, then wonder why the other nations (who are colonies, not partners) hate England.

As for why a lot of the English don't do the England thing, it could be because of the politics of the past decade, which have made us pariahs to the rest of Europe.

It might not be palatable, but England and the English have raped, dominated and brutalised the other countries. England tried to erase our cultures, our native languages, our very identities. Some go on as if devolution somehow undoes those issues, ignoring that Westminster still ultimately control those other countries, in terms of their economies and foreign policies.

It stuns me when English people are amazed at the Celtic distaste for England (we do distinguish between England and the English). "We support them, why don't they like us?", completely oblivious to a long history of cruel brutality, exploitation, and present-day control.

Dave Abrahams
107 Posted 30/11/2022 at 12:54:00
Brian (103), Yes I find it hard to argue too much with your post, when it comes to other sports I’m a 100% behind the English teams but never the football team, I always had a few pound on Scotland, when they were mostly as good as England and plenty of times a lot better, and won quite a few of those bets,not now unfortunately they are not the same as they used to be.

I think the reason, for me, is England have always been very conservative when it came to selecting their players and definitely when it came to choosing the manager, it explains why Brian Clough was never chosen to manage England although it was patently obvious he was the best around at the time.

So while I don’t hate the English team I find it very hard to like them and care little if they lose.

With regards to the way some of the Scots, Irish and Welsh population have a strong dislike of the English is strange when the working class population of each of the four countries is treated with disdain by whichever political party is running the country, a fact that was brought home to a good mate of mine when he was boxing for England, at the Kelvin Hall in Glasgow, against Scotland. He went down to the ringside for one of the early fights to support one of his team mates, he couldn’t believe the abuse and the venom given to theEnglish lad. He told me, I said to myself, “ There is no way I’m getting beat tonight, they’ll have to carry me out on a stretcher before I lose, when it was his turn to fight he gave his Scots opponent a battering for the three rounds it lasted to win a unanimous decision.

When it came to football,Jimmy my mate, wasn’t all that fussy on England!!

Danny O’Neill
108 Posted 30/11/2022 at 12:59:35
I've explained my own personal reasons before Brian. Possibly on this very thread.

I'm second generation Liverpool Irish on one side, Northern Irish Grandfather and Glaswegian Grandmother on the other. I served the Union Flag for 28 years, not St George's Cross.

England needs it's own national anthem, not stealing the UK one.

Maybe just me and the crowd I hung around with, but England was never a thing. Just Everton and Liverpool.

Without wanting to go political, I think the UK missed a trick with Devolution in the 90s. As well as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the English regions should have been given their own assemblies. It's what has led to Westminster being increasingly seen as an English Parliament. And more so one that is London and south east focussed.

Brian Harrison
109 Posted 30/11/2022 at 13:03:39
Rob 106

I didnt in any way infer that I wanted other nations to be put in their place as you put it. I was merely saying I didnt understand why Danny couldnt support our national team the way that most other countries do.

I didnt go into a political argument and being an avid socialist and have been all my life, I don't need any lessons in the terrible political decisions that our governments have under taken. And not just in the last decade as you imply but for hundreds of years. Also the Scots, Welsh and parts of Ireland were part and parcel of our colonisation of large parts of the world. Our illegal wars that people many people like Danny fought in, I don't know Dannys political views as to whether although commissioned to fight in these wars he actually agreed with them.

Rob Jones
110 Posted 30/11/2022 at 13:09:29
Fair enough, Brian.
Michael Lynch
111 Posted 30/11/2022 at 13:26:03
I wonder how many Germans refuse to support their team because of the Holocaust? I mean, that's much more recent history than the Crusades, or the Famine. How about the French? They colonised half the world too. Italy? Well, Mussolini. Australia? A nation of criminals in a country built on the genocide of the indigenous people. And don't get me started on the USA.

Personally, I hope the German people cheer for their team, just as most English people cheer for their team. Whatever their respective histories.

Danny O’Neill
112 Posted 30/11/2022 at 13:35:58
I consider myself a moderate when it comes to politics Brian. Nationally, I'd rather we had a British team like we do in the Olympics. The Lions, although a showcase / tour thing is another good example.

Germany, a country I've lived in, is a nation of states. Sixteen of them, each with their own Parliaments.

On the question as to whether I agreed with what I was sent to do. It came down to having signed on the dotted line. I didn't care for the politics, just doing the job and bringing the boys and girls home as best we could (not always unfortunately) as well as trying to make a difference to people facing real poverty, destruction, and potential oppression that we gave them respite from until we abandoned them.

Apologies for going deep.

Leighton Cooper
113 Posted 30/11/2022 at 13:37:07
Michael 111, don't forget the Spanish decimating most of South America and wiping out actual civilisations!

Always baffles me how hated the English are in the year 2022 for things that happened centuries ago, days from even before our grandparents were born.

Michael Lynch
114 Posted 30/11/2022 at 13:44:47
Leighton, the English being hated by other nationalities doesn't baffle me quite as much as how much some English people seem to hate themselves.

All countries have xenophobic people who moan about other nations, but I'm not sure any other country has so many people who moan so much about their own fellow-citizens.

Me, my grandparents weren't even born here, but I'm happy to support the English team, especially the lads like Rashford, Saka, Phillips, Wilson, Sterling, Rice, Grealish etc who - like me - were born in England of immigrant stock.

Nick Page
115 Posted 30/11/2022 at 13:56:52
An “avid socialist”. Hahaha what, like Stalin?
Brian Harrison
116 Posted 30/11/2022 at 14:07:12
Nick 115

Obviously you don't seem to understand about the difference between socialism and communism.

Nick Page
117 Posted 30/11/2022 at 14:48:36
Yes Brian - one involves dictators who tell everyone what to do and think and the other involves mass murdering psychopaths.
Stephen Davies
118 Posted 30/11/2022 at 14:58:01

Stalin wasn't a Socialist.

Maybe you can quote some Scandanavian Social Democrat Dictators?

Kieran Kinsella
119 Posted 30/11/2022 at 15:11:20

"It stuns me when English people are amazed at the Celtic distaste for England."

This is the thing that annoys me. Anything bad that happens is the fault of the "English".

Ireland came under the control of the Normans (French) at the request of an Irish King in the 12th century.

The Reformation was started by a Welsh family (Tudors), reversed temporarily by the daughter of the King and his Spanish wife.

It was then really kicked off again by the Scottish Stewarts.

Then we had the Glorious Revolution led by a Dutch King at the behest of Scots Irish.

The USA rebelled against a German King.

Disraeli's family were Italian, Churchill's mum American, Ramsey, Balfour, MacDonald etc all Scottish prime ministers. Yet somehow everything bad is the fault of "England".

We have had a United Kingdom for hundreds of years. Regardless of devolution, we've had Welsh, Irish and Scottish parliamentarians and generals. So again, why is everything bad the fault of England?

And what even is England but a country of people who are of Saxon, Celtic, Norman, Dane, Irish, Welsh and Scottish mixed ancestry? I support England, I was born there, my Dad was, three of my Grandparents were not. Every country has its history, good or bad.

Nick Page
120 Posted 30/11/2022 at 15:22:00

And Stalin was a Socialist.

Dave Abrahams
121 Posted 30/11/2022 at 15:22:17
Going back to the football, just for a bit, How did you come to pick that headline Lyndon? "Another clean sheet for Pickford"?

Come on, Lyndon, it took Stones's header to give him something to do last night and against the USA.

As much as they deserved to win, I don't think Jordan had to make any saves. Maybe he will get some deserved accolades later in the tournament!!

Danny O’Neill
122 Posted 30/11/2022 at 15:34:46
I think it's a bit more complex than that, Michael.

Traditionally, England has been a nation (not nation state) that has attracted immigration, from all over the British Isles and from all over the world.

Liverpool as a city reflects this. Where I live now has a significant Polish population.

But as a nation with a population of about 58 million that is made up of a complex but healthy mix of immigrants and regional differences, it's no wonder there is indifference in some areas.

England accounts for 85% of the UK population.

Merseyside has an almost similar population to Northern Ireland but doesn't have its own regional parliament or assembly.

Not that they are capable of sorting themselves out because of bigotry.

Stephen Davies
123 Posted 30/11/2022 at 16:17:39

This is his comparison to the so-called Socialist Stalin:

● Re-organization of the judicial institutions to minimize corruption;
● Introduction of state-owned grain storages to balance out the grain price;
● Assignment of farmland to peasants;
● Re-organization and reduction of the army;
● University reforms;
● Reform of the state-owned medical institutions.

Other reforms included the abolition of capital punishment for theft.

Philip Bunting
124 Posted 30/11/2022 at 17:00:27
Danny is it bigotry or a foreign country trying to land grab another
Kieran Kinsella
125 Posted 30/11/2022 at 17:11:12

I don't understand the rationale about England's demographics being a reason for people not to support the team. You could say the same for any country really. Switzerland for example Italian, French and German now with huge numbers from other nations. America, various natives peoples and immigrants from around the world. Belgium, Franks, French, Dutch, Germanic now with lots of African immigrants. Germany, has only been a country for 150 years and it's borders have changed several times with a mix of Poles, French, Scandinavians, now a healthy contingent of Turks and Syrians. But people support the national football teams in these countries and don't have some artificial rationale that doing so is someone wrong because Marseille has a lot of Tunisians, or Miami has a lot of Cubans.

Jamie Crowley
126 Posted 30/11/2022 at 17:12:33
I just went back and read the comments from yesterday.

One thing:

Kieran -

The USA rebelled against a German King

Explain that one to me, please. Are you referring to Hitler and WWII?

If so, ok. I assumed you were referring to our Independence, and we certainly didn't win that fighting a German King!

Those Irish boys who dumped tea in the hah-buh? They didn't throw any bratwurst! 😜

Kieran Kinsella
127 Posted 30/11/2022 at 17:45:19

I am referring to the German Hannover dynasty that ruled England and America.

Darren Hind
128 Posted 30/11/2022 at 19:23:34
Brian 103

Interesting post. I don't believe this indifference towards England games was prevalent before Sky TV came along. I remember the country came to a halt in 66. I also remember everybody being gripped by world cups in Mexico (70) Argentina (78). We also went mad for Italia 90.

I think the problem with English Football fans is, we simply cant put aside our differences.. Particularly in the North. We spend all season hating upon players from other clubs and we find it impossible to support them when they are on international duty. I distinctly remember feeling a bit sick when Slippy G scored a goal against Germany.
"We" won 5-1 (I think) against our so called sworn enemy and every Evertonian I know was walking around with a gob like a smacked arse.

Danny O’Neill
129 Posted 30/11/2022 at 19:25:15
George III was indeed King of the UK and Ireland and Electorate of the then state of Hanover.

When Victoria succeeded to the throne, the association ended as Hanover wouldn't accept a female.

Hanover later went to become part of the Prussian dominated drive to unify many separate states as what we now call Germany.

I'll maintain my view and consistency. I have no British team to follow. I'm a proud UK citizen. But English? Never felt it.

Everton. Yes.

Dave Cashen
130 Posted 30/11/2022 at 19:38:35
Thats a penalty ?????????
Kieran Kinsella
131 Posted 30/11/2022 at 19:40:21
Wow, "clear and obvious" error penalty call after 10 minutes of analysis and then Szcezny who conceded it saves it from Messi.
Kieran Kinsella
132 Posted 30/11/2022 at 19:42:17
That was a terrific save. One handed. Very strong fingers this fellow as that had some power behind it. But justice done. A ridiculous VAR call.
Bill Gall
133 Posted 30/11/2022 at 19:45:49
I guess the var crew can find a penalty in any cross, but not if it is clear and obvious/ ruining the game not helping it. Glad the Polish keeper saved it
Tony Abrahams
134 Posted 30/11/2022 at 19:53:48
How officials at the very top of the tree, in their sporting field, can make such decisions is just incredible, and has got to be the only logical conclusion, as to why we never get to hear these officials speak, about how they can genuinely make these disgraceful decisions, especially after having had time to watch them again.
Dennis Stevens
135 Posted 30/11/2022 at 19:57:52
Tbh, Darren, I always enjoyed those World Cups that England hadn't qualified for best - '74, '78 & '94.
Bill Gall
136 Posted 30/11/2022 at 20:08:29
As I now live in Canada, I like to see England do well but my actual support ended when the FA decided that, after the New Wembley was built, it was England's home ground and they didn't play around the country.

It also brought out the decision that all FA Cup semi-finals were to played there instead of more neutral grounds with reasonable travel for the 4 teams' supporters to travel. Instead, it is now just an advantage for London teams' supporters.

Dave Cashen
137 Posted 30/11/2022 at 20:12:15
I'm amazed at how many South American fans have turned up for this World Cup.

Sounds like The River Plate Stadium!

Kieran Kinsella
138 Posted 30/11/2022 at 20:13:47
Bill Gall,

I am a bit confused. When I was growing up in the '80s, England played all their games at Wembley. More recently, since they built the New Wembley we've seen games shifted around to Wolves, Southampton etc.

Under the Old Wembley, the only game I can remember not being played there was in about 1995 a friendly versus Sweden at Elland Road. It was a 3-3 draw as I recall.

Tony McNulty
139 Posted 30/11/2022 at 20:19:45

I think there's something in what you say.

I would add two other points:

- Games have mostly been played at Wembley, and possibly as a result Southern fans have identified more with the England team;

- There has been a traditional, clear Southern bias against selecting players from the North.

I was at a get-together with the late, great Andy King and he alluded to it saying that there was no doubt amongst his peers that, even though he hailed from the South, the fact that he played for a Northern team reduced his selection chances for England.

Dave Cashen
140 Posted 30/11/2022 at 20:32:14
One of the Argentine's behind the goal suffering colour blindness.

He's wearing a Mackem shirt.

Jerome Shields
141 Posted 30/11/2022 at 23:50:51
Billy #77,

Sorry to disappoint you, but they should have scored seven. They didn't. Their untested defence looked weak; even with that, they are lucky they are meeting Senegal in the next round, but have to be careful of over-confidence. I actually fancy the USA against Holland.

Anyway, on those silly meetings at free-kicks, they deserve all they get.

Bill Gall
142 Posted 01/12/2022 at 00:43:35
Kieran #138,

My apologies, I got the stadiums mixed up. You are right – it was the old stadium they very rarely played outside of. What I have read is, in the 49 years, that Wembley was open they only played 9 internationals outside of it.

More grieved with the semi-finals of the FA Cup having to be played at Wembley,

Kieran Kinsella
143 Posted 01/12/2022 at 01:49:23
Tony McNulty,

The southern thing, specifically Spurs, is true. Anthony Gardner, Ryan Mason, Steven Caulker, Dawson, Winks, Jake Livermore etc – would anyone of them have got a look in if they were at Everton? Were they better than Hibbert?

Osman got I think just one cap. If Tom Davies, Michael Branch etc were Spurs, they'd have been capped. Hell – Cadamarteri (based on his first handful of games) would have been a starter. Think Hudson Udoi by comparison.

And that's just Everton; the likes of Lee Clark at Newcastle never got a look in. Pretty much anyone English with a handful of Spurs appearances gets capped by default. Not forgetting Andy Sinton (Graham Stuart anyone) Paul Stewart (Rideout?) or Paul Walsh (Wayne Clarke... Heath... even bloody Mike Newell).

Kieran Kinsella
144 Posted 01/12/2022 at 03:03:51
Bill Gall,

No worries, mate, I spent all day today making plans for my day tomorrow Friday. Only now at 9 pm do I realize today is actually Wednesday.

Alan J Thompson
145 Posted 01/12/2022 at 05:57:48

Are you a British citizen or a subject of the Crown? I might be wrong but I always thought it was the latter albeit it does say British Citizen in the old blue passport.

I've lived in Australia for some years now and, while I still like to see all British Isles teams and the Socceroos do well, I can't feel the same way about the Australian cricket team as I've seen the damage their attitude does to kids teams and their coaches.

I also side somewhat with the thought that the England football team are a team that plays in London. A 1966 semi-final, anyone?

Danny O’Neill
146 Posted 01/12/2022 at 07:19:05
I guess we're both, Alan. British citizens and subjects.

You make a good point and one I've mentioned previously. England would do well and reach more if they followed the German model in rotating the international matches around the country rather than it being a London-centric thing.

It doesn't bother me too much, but I think they would reach out to more of the population if they done that.

I think it's similar with Italy and Spain.

Dave Abrahams
147 Posted 01/12/2022 at 10:59:01
Regarding England playing outside of Wembley, the old and the new stadiums,I saw England play Portugal at Goodison in1950 or 1951 in a Festival of Britain game, I also saw them play Poland at Goodison, they also played Eire at Goodison and they played Northern Ireland in a Great Britain league game in a very low attendance game at GoodisonPark, on a Saturday afternoon if I’m not mistaken, I never saw the last game I had wisened up by then!!
Tony McNulty
148 Posted 01/12/2022 at 12:05:24
Kieran (143),

You've sparked a memory.

I went to London University. One evening, I was in a roomful of students watching an England game televised from Wembley.

Every mistake or misstep made by Bob Latchford was booed or laughed at.

I guess any manager picking a Northern player over a Southern-based player might have felt he risked the disapproval of the home crowd.

Ian Hollingworth
149 Posted 01/12/2022 at 20:48:11
Brian @103, spot on.

It always surprises me how people claim to not get behind their country.

How can you not be proud of the country of your birth?
Each to their own though.

Dave Cashen
150 Posted 01/12/2022 at 20:56:44
If industry is to be a factor in this World Cup, the Japanese and the Yanks have still got plenty to say.

Got to love these teams!

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