Dont risk our club's future over a municipal boundary

This is a well written, well argued article but I still disagree with it. The problem with boundaries is that most of them are abitrary. Yet the boundary has to be drawn somewhere and so down goes the line on the map. I am from Warrington: would it be OK for Everton to move into Warrington borough? what about the old Cronton Colliery site, once mentioned? The answer to both must be no, so what is the difference with Kirkby? That people speak with a scouse accent? So can we move to Heswall or Southport? The fact is that a line has been drawn on a map that defines Liverpool and since everyone else recognises that line, so should we. If it was unacceptable for Wimbledon to move to Milton Keynes - 70-odd miles - but acceptable for Everton to move to Kirkby, then at what distance from our current home does a move cease to be acceptable and isn’t that figure arbitrary?
Football is increasingly international - look at any team in the premiership. Something has to give a club its identity and home location is still the main basis: see how we deride the RS for their support in Somerset or Norway. I bet most people in Woolwich (South London) don’t support Arsenal (north London) now simply because the Arse used to be based there 80-odd years ago. Moving from the city that is our home will chop off our roots: we won’t expire immediately but will wither away in time. I wil be voting NO.

All the logic is upside down with this which is further supported by Joe Beardwood’s analysis. The assumption that we just go and build a less accessible stadia, alienating a percentage of our core support in the process, then expect us to pack it to a larger capacity just doesn’t make sense to me. To make matters worse, if we end up in the scenario of a half full new stadium and significant debt to boot then it really would be time for someone to switch off the lights. Staying in the city is not just about emotion and sentiment it’s about basic economics too, supply does not create demand. Moving to Kirkby risks alienating our traditional support base which would be suicide for this club

Simon,

Nice article, but "playing in front of 50,000 in a great stadium week in week out"?

Our current average is just over 36,000.

I have two questions:

Where are the extra 14,000 per game coming from?

You may have read that the proposed per-seat cost of building is less than £2,000, around half of current and recent projects elsewhere, so why do you think it will be a great stadium?

Go read Bluekipper’s Mickey Blue Eyes analysis of Ground moves. Every club that moved had substantial, long-term increases in attendance. To suggest that support would decline is rubbish.

The overwhelming opposition to moving out of the City makes me very sad. I bet once the No vote is in, LCC will spend years before finally failing to come up with an alternative, whilst EFC go into terminal financial decline. But hey, at least we’ll decline within the Liverpool boundary.

Anthony, please explain to me, why moving to Kirkby would alienate our traditional support base

This article is spot on. Have the people who are so against moving to Kirkby actually been there? Transport links are great, a five minute walk from Kirkby rail station and good road links. Also it more scouse than the Kings Dock crowd.

It’s a line on a map, Kirkby is part of Liverpool, how can moving to another part of Liverpool alienate your support!! Our support must be sh*t then if they can’t take a bus/train ride to follow their club...I know..lets move to Speke, thats inside the line.. Oh, but I’ll have to get 2 buses to speke and change trains, so I know, I’ll support the team on my doorstep.. look at the stats of other clubs who rebuilt or moved stadium so they could fit in more of their supporters prepared to pay for an unobstructed view....Or are Evertonians such a small,narrow minded lot who can’t be arsed to follow their club?! I can’t wait to get to Kirkby because of it means we leave behind the morons who can’t figure a bus timetable out I’m all for it...

David Thompson:

’Where are the extra 14,000 per game coming from?’

Dunno, the same place Man City attracted 14000 new fans from?

They averaged less than us at Maine Road, were far less successful and attractive as us, and were suddenly average 47k in their first season at Eastlands.

Stuart,

I have read MBE’s "analysis" of ground moves, which is so flawed as to be ridiculous.

He cites Southampton as pre-move 15,000, post move 30,000. That’s because The Dell could only hold 15,000. There were a lot more fans wanting to go every week, which is why they built a new stadium.

Of the others, by the third season after the move, their attendances were/are running at approx 60% of capacity, even where that has been some modicum of success (Sunderland winning the Championship, for example).

If the same thing happened to Everton, and there’s no reason why it wouldn’t, the average would be 30,000. There is certainly no evidence to suggest we could sustain a significant increase on current averages after the initial novelty period wears off, and there is no evidence from the club that any proper research has been done on this subject.

Totally agree Simon

The bottom line is a stadium anywhere else is not going to attract the same level of support from Tesco, if any.

We simply don’t have the resources to move anywhere else, and staying put isn’t an option.

I really hope people vote with their head’s and not their hearts...

Scouser Blue,

What was their average last season?

39,000 - pretty much what they used to get at Maine Road.

Don’t look at the novelty period. This move is supposed to be to sustain the club long term, and the figures don’t stack up.

Our average would go up. Goodison holds 40,000 but 10% is restricted views. I hate getting a bloody obstructed view ticket and fooking hell that 1 pound off takes the piss - how many dont go because they think "obby view f that"

also note increased capacity we didnt fill could go to away fans or create further subsidsed ticket categories and prices. Right now our average is about 36.000 no? the same as the unrestricted views.

John,

Many of the responses I have seen to anti-Kirkby posters have been along the lines of "not being a true supporter if you won’t go to Kirkby".

Are you seriously telling me that a true supporter who wants to see the team is put off going by an obstructed view?

If all I could get was an obstructed view, I might not be too pleased, but it would never stop me going.

I notice that the latest propaganda on the official site has now put the obstructed views at 10,000. Given that Wyness himself said on July 18th that we have 4,000, doesn’t the lack of consistent information and constant spin worry you? How can you trust some figures, and not others?

Simon, excellent analysis and it hits the heart of the true issue for Evertonians, which is "How does our beloved club quickly fund a quality new stadium and get financial support from the sponsor, to boot?"

I live in the US, have never been to Goodison, but will certainly go there soon. I realize that it may be my one and only trip to this magnificent stadium with its history and atmosphere, but living in the US, I also understand that clubs are about much more than their stadiums.

What we all want is for Everton to progress and thrive. It?s already doing that on the pitch and I?m constantly in awe of the love and high standards that its supporters hold for it and of the atmosphere at Goodison that comes through loud and clear on the TV.

But the key to that support is the love of the club and its performance on the pitch. It needs to progress now and not be left behind. Standing still isn?t an option in today?s EPL. We can break into a "Big Five" or "Big Six" if we keep playing the way we have been recently and if we come up with good financial options that are currently available to us in the Kirkby proposal.

The Kirkby option offers an attractive (not beautiful, not magnificent) stadium paid for by a supportive corporate parent that will invest in the team. It?s the best option available to the team, especially compared to the eleventh hour proposals now being floated.

Michael, are you and the other opponents of Kirkby seriously telling us that you won?t support Everton after they move just four miles down the road outside of town? Don?t you and the other supporters of this club love your team enough to go that distance? Won?t the atmosphere at a Kirkby stadium be as good, if not better, than at any other alternative location within Liverpool city limits? Is it farfetched to think that the existing fans will all go to games at a Kirkby stadium while some newer fans, perhaps not diehards, but corporate types or those attracted to the team?s success on the pitch, will now go to Everton games because of the attractive new facilities?

These types of major changes to stadium locations aren?t just traumatic in England. We have them in the U.S. and doubtless in other areas of Europe. But a move four miles down the road is really a relatively small relocation to most of the world and one that most clubs would take in stride given the timely benefits that will accrue with the Kirkby option.

I urge my fellow Everton supporters to seize this imperfect but best opportunity while we have it and not to lose it based on notable but less significant drawbacks.

same story, from same people, causing the same problems who were against the kings dock move and that was in the city. if we don?t make the move to kirby we will still be arguing about this in ten years from now.I for one will be watching the blues wherever we go.

Stuart Duncan.I think you will find that the teams mentioned by MBE,already had the fanbase in place and needed bigger stadiums to accomadate them.We havn’t got the fanbase in waiting,if we had they would have been coming to goodison,and we would have been selling out every home game.Also, if you now look at Boro and Bolton,their attendances are dropping.

I totally agree with you Simon - your article is spot on mate. Are we really saying that all of the thousands of "Once a blue - always a blue" supporters will happily follow Everton to every ground in the premiership, pretty much anywhere in Europe and even on pre-season tours of Asia and the US, but not 4 miles down the road to Kirkby ... I don’t think so ... If Everton had a reasonably succesful season in the league and perhaps qualified for europe in our first season at the new ground in Kirkby, all of this " I’m not going to Kirkby" bollocks will be completely forgotten in the heady glow of a great season. I travel regularly from Hampshire to watch the blues and its a 400 mile round trip, do you think I’m gonnna refuse to support the team I have worshipped since being a boy of seven for the sake of an extra 4 miles? ...There is too much emotion put on the history of tradition, Everton have a proud and glorious past. But it will always be there, it won’t change or disappear and no-one can take it away from us. But WE CANNOT CHANGE THE PAST, nor can we re-live it. At some point we all need to smell the coffee and move on, the future is now ...

We can’t look a gift horse in the mouth. We have to move on, or be left behind. Financially this is the only option.

Excellent article that I feel sums up the silent majority of blues.

We have to grasp this opportunity now because if we don’t the spectre of Speke or even frigging Cronton (remember that?) may come back to haunt us as expensive alternatives a few years down the line - don’t even mention that tiny site at Scottie Road.

A world class 50-60,000 stadium is within our grasp for literally peanuts and we must grab it now.

It’s going to be a close vote but I think it’s going to be a "Yes". And spot on whoever said Kirkby is more Scouse than anywhere else in Merseyside. It definitely is, especially with the cosmopolitan "refurbishment" of the city centre.

Visit the place before slagging it off.

I am from Malaysia. Its true that football is getting international.
Been supporting the blues since I was 10 and that was in 1985. I managed to get further my education in Sheffield in 90s and still able to go to Goodison on quite a number of occasions. I have memories of Goodison and I make sure I always get the seat behind the goal at Glawdys Street. That said, I will still want Everton to move forward. We have no money, so unless LCC can prove that toe loop works, come up with a design and costing in the next few days; I’m quite okay with Kirkby. And I as a foreigner know that Kirkby is full of hospitable Liverpudlians.

I live in New Zealand and have supported the Toffees for 36 years since I was a kid. My wife will tell you I’m obsessed because every day I pore over 5-6 different Everton websites (including Toffeeweb of course) looking for any different scraps of news about my beloved team. Well, I’ve considered both sides of the argument very carefully and tried to think as a local would. In Auckland where I live, 4 miles is literally "just down the road" and we have a crap public transport system to boot but it wouldn’t bother me one iota if I had to drive that much further....or even walk for that matter (and we have plenty of hills too). I simply cannot accept for one second that genuine (and potentially new) supporters would not go this very small distance, to a top class stadium facility to watch their team. Crikey, if I could afford it, I’d fly 12,000 miles from Auckland (business class of course) every fortnight to see them play. Its been said before but the head must rule the heart on this one and Kirkby it is for me - pity I can’t vote. The Premier League these days is a serious business venture for all clubs whether we like it or not. It therefore follows that the stadium issue requires a business decision and in that sense its a no brainer. If we look this gift horse in the mouth now, it won’t come back for a very long time (if ever) so please don’t waste it. There is a huge silent majority of supporters around the globe who are not allowed to vote and I think most of them will agree that this is not a time to get sentimental.

I live in deep South Texas. Anyway, when Everton was in Houston I drove there and back for one match...close to 700 mile round trip on the same day...cause I had to go to work the next day. I’d happily drive four miles...When I lived in Oxford, I used to leave the house at 4 something a.m. so I could catch up with ESCLA....
but, it’s all relative....remember if Everton were a NFL team they would be holding some city for ransom and threatening to move somewhere else to get a new stadium.. Be thankful it doesn’t work like that...

One last thing...the New York Giants and NY Jets of the NFL, don’t play in New York City, they don’t even play in New York State. They play in New Jersey.It’s all relative...

Great article, spot on.

To all those who oppose moving a couple of miles outside the current Liverpool boundary do you realise that when Everton moved to Goodison it was also outside the boundary of Liverpool at the time? Should we have never moved to Goodison? The answer is no, at the time we had to move to the best available site for the future of the club. Same applies now.

As an Evertonian since the days of Dixie Dean at first I was against the idea of leaving Goodison or the area’ but time does not stand still and unfortunately sentiment doesnt create succes.To stay a top class team we must move forward and take this fantastic offer from Tesco,s chairman he,s also an Evertonian so why is he less desirable as a partner than the Americans or the Russian who are running 3 of the big 4 clubs now .Also to me Kirby is just as much part of Liverpool as any other area of Merseyside.If we vote yes Everton will be in the new stadium at the same time as the reds move into theirs and who cares about their chants, It,ll be better than voting no and then listening to all the teams making stupid jibes about Everton doing nothing. PLEASE EVERTONIANS VOTE YES FOR KIRBY.

For years now the stadium issue has been moving in slow motion. People were rightly unhappy about it saying we’d never have a new stadium at that pace.

Now it’s quite the opposite, we rushed through all the preliminary stages within eight months but is it any better only because it has been quicker?

You see, my problem is that I’m feeling being held at ransom. It’s a typical Tesco thing isn’t it? Aggressive business, choose us now or rust in peace.

It’s absolutely subjective but I don’t like deals without alternatives, it’s that simple. What I’d like to see is having at least two sites (ideally three or four) being explored as to logistic and financial feasibility and then the club having a decision (ballot or no ballot) afterwards.

My bitter experience is that you always have to pay the price somewhere for exclusivity. Just look at the PL TV deals: over the years Sky had exclusive rights, we got decent money, but now they’ve been forced to flog it and see what’s happened. That’s the difference between exclusive deals and market prices.

I’m not against Kirkby in particular, I’m against any deal with no alternatives.

Paul, I don’t think NFL is a good comparison. They operate with relocatable franchises, that’s part of their tradition.

This article is spot on. There has been far too much sentiment in the ground move debate. Goodison, as good as the memories are, is way past its best. Football has moved on a long way from it’s traditional past, any business needs to evolve with the market its operates in and we need to move or we either stand still go backwards.

You’re right Simon. I love that nonsense about how our being in Liverpool boundary gives us our identity. Our identity at the moment is the second fiddle club in Liverpool under LFC shadow.

History. History. I hear this all the time.

Sadly for 30 odd years this has been the case and it is getting more and more the case.

Burnley. Blackpool. Preston. Sheffield Wed. History.

If we go to Kirkby ,in 5 years time every young lad who lives within 10 minutes of Goodison or Anfield will be lost to the dark side. Other clubs have moved ground and done ok but they didn’t gift their closest rivals thousands of fans for the future.

Pete Singer makes a valid point, but by the same token Pete, we have had the opportunity for LCC to come up with alternatives since the Kings Dock debacle. Unfortunately logistical studies on a further 3 or 4 options at this late stage will mean that we won’t be moving to new premises for at least another 7 or 8 years judging by the pace that things happen with stadium decisions. And whilst I take the point that you’re making, Father time is ticking away in the background - and can we really afford to wait a further 8 years before the new stadium revenue streams kick-in ?

Of course most people consider Kirkby as part of Liverpool.
What do they think of Aintree?
Some of the logic expressed at times on here would make you think that the Grand National is a Southport race not a Liverpool race due to both being in Sefton.

If we go to Kirkby ,in 5 years time every young lad who lives within 10 minutes of Goodison or Anfield will be lost to the dark side.

So Alan by the same token, as we are nearer to areas of outer Liverpool and Knowsley and Lancashire will all the Liverpool fans in Kirkby etc start supporting us? I’d suspect not and niether will it be the case the other way about.

Great article. If we say no to Kirkby it could be years before the Loop or anywhere else is sorted and in the meantime we’ll just get into deeper and deeper financial trouble if we say at Goodison.
In the early 1980s when we struggled in front of small crowds and Liverpool seemed to win the championship, or the cup, or the European Cup virtually every year - that’s when I feared for our future because I couldn’t see why any young kid would support us. Thankfully they did and I’m sure the still will, even if we move to Kirkby.
And if Liverpool had decided to move to Kirkby - and they did look at the idea - do you think their fans would talk about surrendering the city to us, or be worried that young scousers would desert them for us?
What we need is a successful team, and although Kirkby is not the ideal solution, it’s the best offer at this time and I don’t see how we can afford to turn it down.

Excellent article! I suspect the Keep Everton In brigade are reds in blue clothing.

If Leahy was a die-hard and had EFC at the forefront of his interests (not Tesco) do you not think the plans would be for a ’60,000 vision of the future’ - instead of the cheapest possible option.

If the deal was so good why has Wyness had to constantly change his story and move the goalposts?

If there really were no other options available why was an exclusivity arrangement necessary in the first place?

Tesco are not stupid - something you can’t say about the board and some fans.

This will cost us more than you all realise in terms of money, fans and eventually stature. We are already falling from our previously lofty position - Kirkby will be like tying an extra weight to our feet and increasing the rate of descent.

okay NFL might be a bad example, but as stated many times before, Man Utd are in Trafford a borough of Greater Manchester....do they or anybody else give a sh*t

How far exactly is this new ground from this arbitrary Liverpool borough border anyway ?, 1.5 miles, surely this is a small compromise to getting a brand new stadium on the cheap and within 3 years...its hardly doing a Wimbledon and moving 70 miles....that could put us in Leeds?and look what has happened there !!!!

Cogsie

Absolutely ridiculous statement! So you’re saying whatever percentage votes for a move against relocating,that they’re all gobshites dressed as blues. As a serious matter for the future of our club,keep your outlandish statements to a red site and give us proper blues a place where we can have a serious discussion. Pleb

Cristopher Jones, I accept your argument and I’m not telling we should wait another 5 years for other opportunities and decide afterwards.

What I want to point out is when somebody tells me not to look a gift horse in the mouth, Troy comes to my mind.

I can’t help but ask the question: have Tesco become the megacorp they are by giving generous gifts to football clubs in need of quick cash for a new stadium?



It may yet come to pass that we will be the proud exception that proves the rule. Only the chances seem slimmer than Beattie scoring a hat-trick against Werder Bremen.




I don’t want to persuade anyone to vote this or that way. Tesco may well be the only viable option in our situation. But to think that we are being given a gift we won’t have to repay is simply silly. We’ll obviously pay dearly for both scenarios. I wish I knew which one would be dearer.

Spot on Simon! Die-hard Blue, one of the most powerful businessmen in the country, offers us £75 million to move our home 5 miles into a brand new stadium.

We will regret it for a VERY long time if we turn this down in favour of pipedreams and mirages.

Cogsie - what a load of bollocks. If that’s all you’ve got to contribute then you really shouldn’t bother saying anything.

I am 100% against the move to Kirkby. I must’ve mistakenly paid hundreds of pounds every year for the last 24 years for my season tickets.

Very careless for a red who is in fact someone so biased a blue that he won’t even drive past their ground, never mind go in it.

About time some sense was posted on TWeb about this move!

What will keep fans following Everton? Success and good players, NOTHING ELSE!

In reply to John, and to clarify, my point was that the move would alienate a percentage of our traditional support, not all - granted my last sentence should have said this too (apologies)

The reason for alienation for some fans?, well Chris Roberts and Alan Rodgers sum it up quite well. The future of the club is reliant on future generations of fans filling it. To wrench the club away from it’s traditional support base and just expect there to be no long term impact on attendances is madness

Like it or not, people choose to support football teams for emotive/tribal reasons. Kids growing up in the centre of Liverpool in the future would find only one club in the city. A kid in a classroom electing to choose Everton would be castigated for choosing to affiliate to a club which is identified as not part of ’Liverpool’ in anyway. Sorry, but that just the way it will work

We currently get about 36k average attendance and the club is basing all it’s future projections and income streams on attendances in the order of 50-55k. This move will generate some natural wastage of fans as after the honeymoon period of having a new stadium certain supporters will choose not to go because of the extra inconvenience - that’s just a fact of life. I just haven’t seen anything to convince me where this extra 20k of support is going to come from, not to mention how additional corporate attendance will be persuaded to travel out to Kirkby rather than staying in the city centre. I don’t go with this idea either that there is a huge, untapped reservoir of support in the East Lancs area just waiting to be snapped up. As another person said, these families already have their own affiliations. It is not some new town scenario

I have just read the glossy brochure to be sent out to fans and it’s obvious that the reason for going ahead with this move is because we are getting it on the cheap and should bite Tesco’s hand off. It pays no consideration to the long term effects. I just a fear a situation where we are getting 30,000 odd support or less and unable to do any of the things financially that the whole scheme was designed for. Then we would seriously be up shit creek

Well, I don’t believe that James as we haven’t had a lot of either in the past 20 years but we are all still here. Mixing our lot up with a red shirted bunch I believe. Having said that .... I firmly believe we should move. It’s a bloody line on a map! As far as I’m concerned it IS Liverpool. We may lose a few supporters (I doubt it) but we will gain some too. Miss out on this and we risk mediocrity for another decade.

great article and says what i am sure a lot of us are thinking. the two biggest problems as far as i can see are EFC giving everyone the vote, they should have just got on with it, and now all the KEIOC using all the forums to spread fear among the rest of us (You’ll see the same names cropping up on many different forums saying the exact same thing- no to kirkby). Heres hoping for a commonsense result after the ballot vote YES for a future.

Er Antony,

I think you misunderstand me I don’t think that we’ll lose support by moving four miles. I was quoting an earlier poster who thought that and was running a counterpoint. Problem with this form is you can’t put things in italics etc.

Sorry Chris!, where’s Tony Marsh when you need him!

Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth. As horses age their teeth begin to project further forward each year and so their age can be estimated by checking how prominent the teeth are. The advice given in the ’don’t look...’ proverb is: when given a present, be grateful for your good fortune and don’t look for more by examining it to assess its value. This is exactly what the board has convinced pro-Kikby voters to do. Just be thankful for Tesco’s generosity and not to examine their motives or the true value of what they get out of the deal. To ensure that those fans churlish enough to want to can’t examine this gift-horse in the mouth, we have received conflicting statistics, mis-information and spin from the board. For those of you who assert that we can’t turn down investment from Tesco I agree, but as many of the pro-Kirby lobby like to say "show me the money". Tesco don’t sponsor us, they haven’t bought us any players they have simply entered into a brief marriage of convenience until they have achieved their own business aims then we will be left to fend for ourselves.
Beware of Greeks (Tesco’s)bearing gifts. An allusion to the story of the wooden horse of Troy, used by the Greeks to trick their way into the city.
It is recorded in Virgil’s Aeneid, Book 2, 19 BC: "Do not trust the horse, Trojans(Evertonians). Whatever it is, I fear the Greeks (Tesco’s) even when they bring gifts."
Of course that English version is a translation. Another translation, by John Dryden, has "Trust not their presents, nor admit the horse."

The same thought was also recorded by Sophocles (496 - 406 BC), in Ajax:

Nought from the Greeks towards me hath sped well.
So now I find that ancient proverb true,
Foes’ gifts are no gifts: profit bring they none.

Tesco seek profit ruthlessly and don’t care whether it is at the expense of a third-world farmer, sweat-shop worker or an Evertonian. If we don’t very closely look this gift horse in the mouth to examine its worth then we will be left to look up its arse as it trots away to seek more profit to see what shit really comes out of it.

It’s not because it’s Kirby it’s because it’s so far from the city center. Like is Speke or even Long lane. We are EVERTON from the city of Liverpool.

Why is the assumption that Tescos are somehow trying to shaft the club? Just because something is good for one party in a deal, it does not follow that it is bad for the other. Its not a zero sum game.

There is no Plan B translates to we don’t have the money to move grounds without Tesco (I wish Wyness had just said that from the outset.

People are talking about us not being able to fill a 50K Stadium but want to redevelop Goodison - do they want it to stay at 40K?

If we don’t fill the new ground, it doesnt matter because we’ve only had to shell out about £15m anyway (i.e. we won’t be in debt like some other teams 4 miles away will be). look at Arsenal. You’re not telling me that Wenger never wanted Eto’o or some other world class players but they are still paying for their new stadium.

Anthony Newell, you are contradicting yourself when talking about the fanbase eroison. Why on one hand would people in Liverpool choose to support the shite over us? yet the rest of merseyside/east lancs corridor would continue to follow the clubs their families have supported etc thus not allowing EFC to generate new fans? Surely the same rules apply - if a team is successful it will attract fans wherever the location.
The fact remains - that until Everton start winning trophies our support will be around the 35k mark wherever we move to.

what is wrong with you people what makes you think that by changing the ground we will become a ’top side’???? we have the modicum of such a side now we just need a couple of extra players - do you think that no-one else is coming because they don’t like the ground?? as for views you only go to the ground to watch the game not live there and every time I go - not a season ticket holder for many a years due to location (dubai) - I buy what tickets are available and have never had a seat with a 2 foot wide column in front of me. I have found that by moving the thing with my head attached to it I never missed a goal - try it it works - everton in the city forever.

Andy, I have not contradicted myself in any way. I have said that the club would lose some support from it’s traditionally located fan base (reasons for I have explained) and I have also said that there is no guarantee that we will suddenly attract new fans from the East Lancs corridor. What is contradictory about that?, they are two separate points but both support the case that we will not currently pack out a 55k stadium just plonked in Kirkby. In fact, you support the point I have been making all along - success on the pitch is a precursor to attracting fans so that means investment on the pitch and now. The club’s principal argument is that the stadium is required to increase revenue via increased support. They take the latter as a given constant which I think is bonkers. I wonder if they have performed some "what if" analysis to see the effects if the club continued to get it’s current attendance in this new stadium - have they shite

Well I was having this beautiful fantasy of getting on a plane at Tel Aviv ( from October there are going to be dirt cheap charters) going direct to Manchester, then a quick train to Lime Street and a 10 minute walk to the "loop" Admittedly a journey of about 6-7 hours but who ever said being an Everton supporter is meant to be easy! But this is only a fantasy and just like everybody else my feelings have fluctuated from side to side. Of course every one of us would love a stadium bang in the middle of town but it just is’nt going to happen ( just as peace is’nt going to break out in my part of the world! )My only remaining hope is that we manage to win the league one more time before I die! And in the meantime I admit - I want to bring my kid to a ground that I won’t be ashamed of and to tell you the truth I am today ashamed of the ground I grew up in because its a mess and the sooner we are out of there the better
so at the end of the day it has to be Kirkby

I regularly come on to Toffeeweb to read the opinions of fellow blues on this emotive issue. I think that some superb arguments have been put forward on both sides and it’s quite clear that this decision may have massive consequences in terms of the future of our club.

The big problem I have with it though is the lack of information on which to base our decision. Let’s face it, the vast majority of those who will soon be putting an x in one of the boxes will do so without a true idea of what the ACTUAL cost will be to the club should we move, nor of the true feasibility of our "other options" (assuming of course that they do exist). Sure, lots has been written on both sides, but partly because of the relative silence of the club on this, it’s close to impossible to separate the cold hard facts from the conjecture / pipe dreams.

Personally, I would never choose to make an important decision like this without first making sure I had done everything possible to ensure my choice was an informed one. How can we then be essentially expected to make this decision for the club?

I think the poster who suggested lobbying for a delay to the vote while alternatives are explored more fully has hit the nail on the head. Otherwise, as far as I can see, it’s just going to be emotionally fuelled guesswork for most of us.

Simon, it’s not an assumption, it’s only fear. Stemming from the fact that Tesco does this to virtually all of its business partners.

Partnership with a bully might be beneficial but more often than not it isn’t.

It’s not a zero sum game, it’s true. We have much more to lose than what they can gain. If their expectations aren’t fulfilled, we could easily find ourselves dumped from "our" shiny new stadium.

It’s not about bounderies you plank! Liverpool offers so much in terms of leisure and tourism that it would be stupid not to have that on your doorstep as a business.

At the moment it is very simple, match ends, then either walk into town or get a taxi. Brilliant, and the city is still growing! It’s the biggest regeneration project in Europe. Furthermore i take my business clients to Goodison for meetings but if it’s in Kirby I won’t bother at it’s not cost effective to travel from the city. I’ll just hire somewhere closer like a function suite in a hotel.

Matt.
The difference between us and the team 4 miles away is that they will be able to fill their stadium.
They have a massive waiting list, we don’t have any waiting list.
Let’s for one minute think about buisness for corporate boxes.
You have a choice of going to the other place. Well within reach of the city and all it’s amenities or off to Kirkby to the Tesco dome in the middle of nowhere.
where as an outside buisness would you go?
The city is expanding and it’s regeneration will never reach that far out.
I have said before on this site that Tesco are not in this out of the goodness of their heart.
Anyone who thinks that is a deluded fool.
Bu know what ? I’m fed up with it now and couldn’t give a shit anymore.
If we move and go under,what the hell. Because you see. Everybody has their opinions and feelings about the move, mine will be caution and regret if it happens.
I know i won’t go to the new stadium because it won’t feel right and doesn’t feel right.
It won’t stop me being a blue. I will always be a blue, just a none match going blue.
But these are MY! personal feelings.
So at least respect them on that basis.

Do Man Utd play in Manchester? - NO

Has that affected them, I won’t even insult you by giving an answer to that one........

I just can’t believe the argument that just because Everton will be relocated outside the boundaries of the City of Liverpool, all kids who grow up in Liverpool will automatically support the red team. How do I know? Because I am bringing my two boys up in the true blue tradition whilst living in Enfield, despite the attractions of the much more successful (recently anyway!) local teams of Arsenal and Chelsea (not to mention Spurs) etc. The reason kids support a particular footie team (certainly the reason I support Everton) is because of family tradition in many cases - my Dad was an Everton fan and so am I and so are my sons (hopefully one day so will their kids be). Are those of you who are worried about this also going to be moving out of the City of Liverpool? If not, stop worrying - your kids can stand a bit of banter from their red-supporting mates and still be proud of their team, even it plays at a stadium in Kirkby.

Peter,

Accepting your argument that kids will follow their parents teams, why does it make a difference that, according to Wyness, we will get new support; "Kirkby will bring 4 million households within 45 minutes drive".

Firstly, I’d dispute that figure - that would be about a third of the poplulation of the UK.

But in any event, those 4 million must already be with 1 hour of Goodison. Won’t they already have other teams to support, and why will our moving to Kirkby change them, if it won’t change the existing Everton supporters?

If they’re only an hour away, why don’t they come now?

One thing to consider for all Blues, when talking about the Loop.
My brother is a planning lawyer working on several regeneration projects for 2008. After the completion of the work late 2007, Liverpool will not be eligable for anymore public or european grants for new projects, they will all have to be privately funded.
Thats not to say that LCC can not fund a project or donate land - they just wont be able to access any regeneration grants.

Dave Thompson said:

*He cites Southampton as pre-move 15,000, post move 30,000. That?s because The Dell could only hold 15,000. There were a lot more fans wanting to go every week, which is why they built a new stadium*

I say everton pre-move 37,000 average post move 47-50,000 average because goodison only has 37,000 unobstructed views, prob more fans wanting to go but not paying for obstructed views which is another reason to build our new stadium.

Billysea, i live in fazakerley in "the city of liverpool", the proposed ground is 10min drive from me?? what does it matter how close to city centre, its in liverpool, sod the "boundaries" that some jobs worth has put in!

Why would a guy who is an avid efc fan wanna shack us/bully us?? as been said, dont have someone coming into buy us, own us decide what we do, who we buy, just someone who is a fan willing to bankroll a new stadium without owning us!

And by the way, i’ve not even decided on a yes vote yet, but the more i hear those against the move and there reasons, it actually swaying me to a yes vote!!!

Dave - I’m not sure why Everton have put forward this argument, you would have to ask them. My guess is that there will always be some people who do not have a tradition of supporting a particular football team. These "floaters" are likely to be swayed by things like on the field success, TV coverage and, of course, accessibility and facilities at the stadium. Kirkby would be able to tick the latter boxes and I guess the intention is to actually increase Everton’s traditional fan-base. Moving out of the City might actually help in that context if you assume that most people in Liverpool are already brought up in one tradition or the other so remaining there will not achieve that end.

one more thing, in terms of the cost of the kirkby move, it’ll be a heck of a lot less than anywhere else! the city council will probably take forever to agree the "other location", then costs will spiral as with capital of culture, not too mention the fact it may not even go ahead (trams anyone??)

please dont tell me i’ll not go anymore this just annoys me, i just see it as pathetic dummy spitting! so its not so close to the city centre, so what, my concern is efc and moving forward and if kirkby helps us do that...

Simon, you say: "Ask someone from anywhere in the UK where Kirkby is and they will say ’in Liverpool’".

What they will actually say is ’Haven’t a clue mate’. And that’s the problem. If we move there, we will the first big team in Britain (maybe the world) that, in the eyes of most people in its home country, comes from nowhere. That’s not meant to insult anyone, it’s just a fact.

Don’t talk thru your arse Hugo...I’ve lived in many different places over the world..Kirkby is very well known and is known to be Liverpool...trust me on that one.

"Furthermore i take my business clients to Goodison for meetings but if it?s in Kirby I won?t bother at it?s not cost effective to travel from the city. I?ll just hire somewhere closer like a function suite in a hotel."

So your happy to take your clients to GP where the facilities are outdated but you wont spend the extra £5 on a taxi ride for 4 miles to a brand new stadium with first rate corporate facilities which would actually impress clients more!? .. crikey.. :-)

Genuinely, Im sure your non-evertonian clients would prefer to visit a new stadium with excellent facilities than a run down GP.. very strange thinking there.. but thats your (companies) loss i guess.

"the move to leave goodison park and relocate to kirkby was one of the main reasons i was keen to commit my long term future to the club during the summer" - Tim Cahill, from the EFC official brochure, ’the future for everton’. I suggest you all read it and then decide if you want to see all our best players (and probably Moyes too) leave and be replaced with championship-level players because thats exactly where we will be headed. PLEASE DON’T WASTE YOUR VOTE! Vote yes for a future!!!

Having been dubious at first, I feel we must vote yes to the move. The design plans are in place, the finance has been structured and the willingness on the part of the local planners is also available - we will NOT get such a deliverable alternative within the next 3-5 years at least.
In addition, should a No vote go through I would expect Kenright as well as Wyness to fall on their swords since they have staked their reputation on this.
Where would that leave us? Marooned and drifting without a proverbial pot to pi$$ in is where. We simply have to vote yes.

All this talk of the stadium is taking away our focus from the lack of signings. Were going in Europe again and i haven’t seen David Moyes expanding the squad. Has he been given much funding??? i think not.

Lets all just agree that Kirby aint that far away, and well lets just get on with it. Tesco are giving us Tens of Millions. I think an instant fix would to redraw the lines and make Kirby offically in Liverpool.

How hard can it be to extend liverpool 4 Miles. Anyone know?

If we unite & all support this it adds extra pressure on our beloved City Council to get the arses in gear and offer us something we can work with to stay in the City.

At first i was against, now im for just to move things on. Lets get talking about the new quality players coming our way.

It depends on how you define an obstucted view. 4000 if you only say some part of either penalty but i am surprised the other figure is only 10,000. I have a seat on the fourth fow of the bullens and get a stiff neck every home game dodging the bleeding post that blocks out part of the pitch towards the street end. I am convinced that more people would buy season tickets and individual if guaranteed a good view. The lower bullens and main stand must be some of the worst views in the league. Attendences would def increase!

If Kirby Is The Best Option Then Why Are So Many Agaisnt It? Why Are There Still So Many Questions That Many Fans Don’t No The Correct Answer To? If There Is No Alternative Then Why Are the Club Balloting The Fans In The 1st Place? Why Has Warren Bradley Promised The Fans That They Will See Plans For The Loop Site Before Te Vote? And Why Are

Kevin Radcliffe (Probley Are Most Succesful Ever Captain)



John Moores (most famous family to have been associated in the long and proud history)

Ronnie Goodlass(Ex-Blues Favourite & Radio Pundit)

Duncan Ferguson (Most Iconic Blue Of The Past 10-20 Years) & Most Of All Howard Kendall (True Blue, Forer Player & Most Succesful EVER Manager) All Against Us Goin There?

Sources
Daily Star Sunday 29/7/2007



http://www.keioc.net/index.php?page=news-archive

Council boundaries were drawn up by a bunch of faceless government officials. They are based on such matters as population. They mean nothing. When you consider voting to decide the future of EFC one thing tht is totally irrelevant is a municipal boundary. The current debate is such a load of old balony I feel like slitting my wrists. Lets face the facts, EFC need to attract investment. We are looking like British Leyland in the 70’s. Arguing over what the boundary of Liverpool is or is not is completely ridiculous. If you have the choice between staying within a municipal boundary or having a future. There is no choice.

Dave Thompson wrote
"
Are you seriously telling me that a true supporter who wants to see the team is put off going by an obstructed view?

If all I could get was an obstructed view, I might not be too pleased, but it would never stop me going."

Alas yes. I try to get to a game whenever I am back in the city but paying over £30 to get stuck behind a pillar at the back of the Bullen’s Rd with a leaky pipe does sometimes make me wonder if I should do something else if I’m only back for a weekend.

Reason by name and by nature. This sincerely held view about ’Keeping our club in Liverpool’, is avoiding a simple truth; Bootle, Birkenhead, Southport, Formby, Heswall and the rest of the region around the Mersey are not in Liverpool...but we are Blue are we not? And a small point to consider; I wandered down Matthew Street recently and didn’t hear a scouse accent. I have never NOT heard a scouse accent on Kirkby. Z-Cars and Stubbs..Kirby and Blue.

Liam G, don’t peddle untruths - Howard Kendall has lent his name to the official Kirkby project brochure and ’Rats’ only last weekend on Radio City said "if it gets us £10m extra a season for moving then we’ll have to do it"

I just want to say that, as an Everton supporter since 1966, and a season ticket holder for over 10 years, I agree totally with Simon Reason's article entitled "Don't risk our club's future over a municipal boundary". Excellent article, well argued and common sense. I shall be voting 'yes'.

To Gerard -

If "Rats" Is Behind The Move Den Why Did He Say -

Kevin Ratcliffe, our most successful ever captian, has put his staunch support behind the KEIOC campaign.

Ratcliffe has emphasised "how sad it would be if we ever leave the ground and the area where so many great memories are held.

"If it wasn’t for Goodison and it’s atmosphere many victories would not
have been accomplished.Yes we need to address the stadium issue, but it
would be a long term disaster for the fan base, especially
future generations.


"Why divide the fans when together we could accomplish so much. Stay in the City, build the team, and explore the right decision for the long term, think of the kids."

& There’s No PROOF That Kirby Will Generate An Extra 10 Mil.



And If Kendall Has Lent His Name To The Project Then Why Did He Brand Kirby As - "Liverpool Teritory"

Gerarld -

If You Have Any More Doubts About My "untruths" then visit this link - http://www.keioc.net/index.php?page=news-archive

There is a picture of Ratcliffe holding a "our city" "our club" "our future" banner?

and here’s a quote from The Star On Sunday - "The most successfulo manager in the club’s history is horrified at the prospect of his old club having to build their new ground outside the city at Kirby"

My Untruths?? Wer’s Ur Proof??

Those Ratcliffe comments were 3 or more months ago, at the time he even agreed to have his picture taken with a couple of blues who promptly hoisted a KEIOC banner in front of him.

His stance last weekend was markedly different.

How Do U No Why He Did Say What He Sed Or Has Is Pic Wid Da Flag? How Do uno weda or not he wntd to have the flag wid im on d pic?? Am Jst Sayin It Frm Wa Av Seen n Read.

This is such a hard decision. I am not a scouser and have never lived in Liverpool. In fact I was born in Stockport and but for fate would have been a MANURE like me dad. I now live in Cambridgeshire. However I like to think i’m an Evertonian. Since the late sixties I have been in love with the blues. It all started with Astle’s goal and me thinking the wrong team had won. That was closly followed by being locked out at Old Trafford that made me think Everton was the team for me. I even pesuaded me dad to take me to a game March 26th 1976 ( I was 15) Blues 4 Spuds O. I was hooked.The following season I braved a train from Manchester to Liverpool and went to virtually every home upto 89. My dad, god rest his soul still reckoned the most emotianl live game he saw was EFC v Bayern, and that from a man brought up on the Busby Babes and Munich. The memories are unbelievable and if we never win another thing again I will still be proud to say I am an Evertonian. As I say I am not a scouser, I hate the thoght of leaving Goodison and the City, but what are the alternatives? Kirby is a place, Everton is a passion. After all that I still do not know the answer.

"How Do U No Why He Did Say What He Sed Or Has Is Pic Wid Da Flag? How Do uno weda or not he wntd to have the flag wid im on d pic?? Am Jst Sayin It Frm Wa Av Seen n Read."

fellow blues, allow me to translate : "i shall be voting with my head and not my heart, its a Yes from me, COYB"

well said Simon.We actually have a real chance of something happening on the stadium front at long last and we could lose out big time if this falls through.Everton’s traditional support base is Merseyside wide.Bolton haven’t ceased to become Bolton Wanderers because their new stadium is situated in nearby Horwich.As for Ratcliffe he didn’t voice any doubts over the Kirkby plans when on Radio 5 earlier this week.

And err Liam, past players are NOT the future of our club-WE are the future of our club.They have an opinion as do we all.

I have family in Kirkby, blue and red, it’s part of Liverpool as far as I’m concerned.Before 1974 we were all in Lancashire.If an invisible line on a map blocks our chance of a new stadium we’ll deserve all we get..

"Are you seriously telling me that a true supporter who wants to see the team is put off going by an obstructed view? "



Then logic dictates that true supporters shouldn’t be bothered by a move just up the road to Kirkby.In fact,I’ll tell you one thing that does certainly put off potential supporters from travelling to Goodison.Car Parking difficulties and traffic congestion..

Thought this might be of interest to anyone wondering why there?s a strong anti-kirkby flavour to a lot of forums on here (this was taken from the KEIOC forum, as they began damage-control after they showed vision of hooliganism to kirkby residents):

chelsheedy
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 45
Location: half a mile from GP
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject:

Campaigners who want Everton to remain in Liverpool will be telling

local residents about the congestion and disorder a new stadium might

bring to Kirkby town centre.

History and traditions

They also plan to show them CCTV video footage from Merseyside Police

of Everton and Manchester United fans fighting.

If KEIOC plan to highlight incidents of disorder by Evertonians, this

will be a massive own goal and will repel supporters.


Herefordblue
Site Admin
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 542
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject:

agree, hoping that there?ll be a statement from the committee soon

distancing themselves from that part of the report and that it?s not a

path they?re going to go down


Wayne
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 53
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject:

I?ll bet it?s mischievous journalism. Get used to it, I wouldn?t mind

betting it?ll get worse before it gets better.

A swift denial by the KEIOC heirarchy is imperative.


paulc
Site Admin
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 67
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject:

Being a member of KEIOC i deplore any showing of the dvd (no evidence

to show everton fans) in public and if it is the case then i for one

will seek there immediate resignation with a full apoligy.

KEIOC have campaigned in an orderly fashion and will continue to do

so, if this is not the case then i relinquish my own support.

this issue will be addressed tonight and i will endeavour to post the

outcome asap.

paulc


Wayne
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 53
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject:

hope you don?t mind, Paul, but I?m posting that on Kipper. there are a

lot of little pricks diving all over the story. cheers.


Herefordblue
Site Admin
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 542
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject:

****, you?re not wrong there, some unbelievable reactions on there,

though is a bit par for the course on there unfortunately.

Keep us updated Paul please.


Wayne
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 53
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject:

I managed to quash a lot of it, I think.
I?m "thommo" on there, BTW. I?m an admin.


SO MUCH FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND IMPARTIALITY!
The entire thread can be viewed on KEIOC?s site under "protests planned by KEIOC & KRAG"

I’m in Australia now, originally from Liverpool {Oxford Street Hospital, then Wavertree actually}. Bumped into a girl the other day at a shop and spotted the accent straightaway. Asked from where in Liverpool she was from?

"Not Liverpool, Kirkby."

Nuff said.

The article is spot on Simon & sums up the thoughts of the YES vote IMO.

I travel a 350 mile round trip every time I visit GP - some of the so called "hard core" seemingly can’t be arsed travelling 8! If the No vote wins the day - I fear for the future of our great club.

The same voices as shouted down the Kings Dock development are in danger of destroying this one. All this talk of viable alternatives is shyte - it’ll take another 2 years to get to the stage we are now (assuming we can find a similar business partner - which is unlikely to happen to the same level as the Tesco funding) by which time land & construction prices will have risen even further & we’ll end up having to spend 4/5 times the cash (that we haven’t got!) to get the same result - but at least it’ll be in Speke.....

Simpley refreshing to hear something positive about the move. I’m from Kirkby and can honestly say that this is the first time in my life (I’m 31) that I keep being told I am NOT from Liverpool???? But then again, everyone knows the grand national in in Southport!

First Sir Terry can not favour Everton his responsibility is to Tesco so you are already being naive thinking other wise you seem to accept that these extra fans will appear sorry but after the initial football on the door step novelty wears off the gates will drop there are to many ifs in the whole thing which would mean taking Bill at face value sorry but once someones lied to me I cant do that but just suppose its all true and Dave gets £10mill to spend by the time we move in you wont get much for ten million so I am voting no if I sound cynical its Bills fault .I am also not impressed with the plans of the new stadia if we have to move anywhere fine but we want a ground fit for Everton not a Tesco monstrosity

I’m sick of hearing fans say Tesco are only in it for the money.

I happen to know Terry Leahy’s brother very well and he is the most passionate Evertonian I’ve ever met, he was nearly in tears when we virtually clinched UEFA Cup football versus Pompey.

Can it not be a mutually beneficial arrangement for both parties?

I for one will be voting a resounding ’YES’.

we shud move 2 kirkby. the stadium luks gr8 propa futuristic. plus this argument bout it bein outside liverpool..wen u go on holiday these ppl frm kirkby claim 2 b scoucers anyway n wereva i go as im frm st helens these same ppl call me a wooly back so 2 the rest of the country it wud still b in liverpool

I THINK WE SHUD MOVE 2 ST. HELENS. THE RIGBY TEAM R ABOUT 2 BUILD A STADIUM ON THE OLD SUTTONS SITE. WE CUD HI-JACK THAT MOVE. MOVING 2 ST.HELENS WUD EVEN POSSIBLY PINCH A FEW MORE FANS FRM THE RED SHITE N EVEN THE MANCS. ST HELENS IS MERSEYSIDE N A FAR BETTER OPTION THAN KIRKBY. ITS CLOSENESS TO THE M6, M62 AND EAST LANCS MAKE A A GREAT SITE. WHAT DOES EVERYBODY ELSE THINK. IM SUPRISED THIS HASNT BEEN MENTIONED YET.

hey that wouldnt be such a bad idea. it would at least stop us from relying on a supermarket chain? how much does the development in st helens looking like costing?

To all the Lads going to vote "NO" Please take your head out of the sand, Simon is spot on with his article about time someone did speak for the people who want our Club to be successful in the future and not just want a club inside the Liverpool boundary wherever that may be, Aintree racecourse is in Liverpool, So is Kirby like it or not. Don,t mess with our club,s future lads you have all wanted a say on it now you have it don,t blow it or you may all regret it in years to come. LCC will come along with land and a sponsor and money to go with us staying the city centre Oh Yea don’t bet your life on it.

Received my form today and sorry everyone, but after much thinking and despite wanting to agree to the Kirkby move, I can’t do it. It ain’t the boundary, I’d more than likely go to the Wirral to watch the game if everything was right, but after reading the Kirkby debate and despite all the blues articles saying yes, it’s great, look at these glossy photos and imagine this full stadium full of fans...Etc.

But for some reason we seem to be being told repent or die, as it’s the only option, we can’t afford anything else, it’s almost like saying your unemployed, your shite, you have to take any shit job that comes along, because it’s your only option, I thought the late 70’s/80’s and Thatcherism had gone?

Of course, since then, we have had the usual Toffeeweb suspects, the anti-Kenwright brigade, also suddenly coming up with, yes, not only a new design for the club with "some" parking, plus, it can fit into this tiny little space, just off a main road, but there won’t be any congestion. Showing us not just photos (at angles, to make it appear bigger) and pictures and tiny drawings that the ground won’t fit into properly and oh yeah, the lovely people at Bestway want to help us, they are so kind, Sorry guys your talking bollocks again, how long to "get rid of dithering Dave" (again?) First home defeat perhaps?

You see I find both sides haven’t thought about it, it’s all a bit domesday scenario and very much last minute and a bit like the King’s Dock in EFC’s case, remember we don’t need a plan B? Sorry somebody is running a multi-million pound business here and the best they can come up with, is a 50/50 phone a (40,000) friend(s)? Oh and by the way, you walk away with nothing and all the Bluenoses in your family will suffer. I’m sure this didn’t happen over 100 years ago and it don’t seem right to me and shouldn’t be happening now.

Obviously the city council and EFC have all been too busy since the Kings Dock fiasco and as usual, the dark side get what they want and we can have the scraps. I’ve seen people post comments about how great the new redshite stadium looks, sorry, to me it looks crap for £300 milllion, but the city council have taken away the Liverpool’s heritage in order to fulfil their dreams. Have you noticed the similar fawnings from Rafa, Gerrard and the rest of the players and management, about how great the stadium looks, note Carraghers, "Everyone’s excited... we have a great stadium... but the designers have come up with...great design, etc.." Familiar sounding bollocks eh? But of course the difference between the dark side and ourselves is, they’ve got much more than just 50,000 "customers" per game, who live all around the world and like Utd, down South too, who not only like clogging up the M6 every week, but love and believe all the hype and are quite happy to go along with the perceived idea that they are "kopites" even if they moved LFC to the Arizona desert, they’d still be kopites.

The truth of the matter is that Blues attendences are on the decrease, average last year was 35,000, were are the other 15,000 coming from? Against Utd and the Reds, yeah, we’ll have another 15,000 more of them inside the ground, nice! Everyone else, forget it. Plus, Im not trying to slag off Kirkby, but as the city of Liverpool is finally starting to recover, why move now? Why would potential investors want to go outside of the city, have none of you been down all the back streets in the city centre and seen what is going on?

There are vast tracts of land along Kirkdale and in the Sandhills area, whre there are train stations and plenty of land, or alog the river? Plus, if your going to make the impossible sound real as with the loop, what about anywhere along Netherfield Road where the crest is on the hill? If only someone had the vision, don’t forget you heard it hear first!

I could go on about how shit the facilities, parking and catering, are at all the new stadiums I’ve been to are and how souless they seem, but hey, i’d possibly be accused of politics and spin, but to my mind, if I was running EFC, I wouldn’t be putting all my eggs into one basket, I’d have plan B & C and not trying to blackmail the fans.