I am 99.9% sure that if we want to match the top Premiership sides then you need major investment. Not move ground! Look at what the likes of West Ham, Wigan, Fulham, Sunderland and Portsmouth are now doing. All clubs finishing below us, or just promoted, who have a board with money to back the manager and have the finances to develop there ground or move ground. There is no point in moving ground if we have nothing to back us up after that.
Everyone is making out that moving or improving the ground will take us back on track to the top. Then you're wrong. It is major investment that takes you to the top and the ground will be brought on after the investment in our club. Liverpool, Man utd, Chelsea and even West Ham to a certain degree are now proving that major investment is the way forward.
There is no proof we will bring in much more income if we move to Kirkby and we certainly dont have the backing to put 40, 50, 60 million pounds towards a stadium in Liverpool, which is what everyone wants, including me. Arsenal are a perfect example of that. Bigger club than us at the present moment but not very well backed. They moved to a new ground and are now in massive debt, struggling to match the top 4 clubs around them in the transfer market (man utd,chelsea,spurs,liverpol).
They were ready to move onto the next level after building a tremendous team of young talent and without the backing to build on that they have put the money into moving to there new ground leaving the doors open for people like Henry to move on.
Which brings me back to our situation. We're ready to move onto the next level in terms of reguarly finishing in the top 6. WE need major investment to do this in terms of matching the above teams in the transfer market, or at least increasing the numbers of our squad with decent players to keep us fighting in and for European cups. Only then can we look at moving ground.
The KEIOC have proved that the supporters do have a say and will be listened to. The board would have agreed to move to Kirkby by now if the KEIOC hadn't have formed. I agree to a point where I want our club to stay in Liverpool, but I am only willing to back the KEIOC if our loyal support are willing to be heard once again! I want us to stand up and force the board to get major investment into our club.
I don't believe for one second that investors from USA and Europe are looking at clubs like Birmingham, Portsmouth West Ham and even lower league sides, yet they wont look at us. EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB. We are ready to make a big step forward and that step requires major investment. We the Everton support are the only ones who can force us back to the top again by forcing are issues onto the Everton board and making them listen.
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1 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:15:16
That really should be the end of your argument to be honest.
Who in their right mind is going to want to invest into Everton when they have a decrepid stadium that doesn’t make any money. An investment is made to increase revenue for all parties, it isn’t a donation.
KEIOC should never be heard because they are a disgraceful excuse for an organisation. Who shows their own fans misbehaving as a way to stop Kirkby backing the project? Do they think that will help the club? Idiots, each and everyone.
As for your last paragraph, West Ham got investment, Birmingham are getting it and Pompey got it last year. Why? Because they are thinking forward and remembering the past which is obviously what you are doing.
2 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:23:09
and remembering the past which is obviously what you are doing. should say
and not thinking about the past which is obviously what you are doing.
3 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:34:52
Moving to Kirkby makes Everton a much stronger business acquisition. Its black and white. Investors want ROI, if they have to build a new stadium and repay the debt themselves there is not ROI. A ’free’ish stadium at Kirkby puts us probably the most attractive club to invest in in the country that hasnt already been taken.
4 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:30:18
There’s me thinking the tri-party deal between the club, Tesco and Knowsley Council neatly takes care of a pressing need for the club and as such can be considered a badly needed investment which helps secure the club’s future in the short and long term.
Or do you prefer your investment money to come in the form of used fivers...?
5 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:53:16
It has to be a realistic option for moving the club forward, nothing apart from Kirkby makes any sense.
KEIOC are just an amateurish group with no agenda other than to disrupt the progress of this club.
6 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:00:28
- West Ham - looking to get a stadium via the olympic games
- Wigan - new stadium.
- fulham - have been quoted as wanting a new stadium but are a bit screwed for cash (sounds familar?)
- Sunderland - stadium of light?
- Portsmouth - looking to move.
Sorry but what you have proven is that we need to move to just keep up with those clubs below us.
I really don’t want us to move from Goodison I’ve never forgiven the board for the FU over the Kings Dock debacle but if there are no real concrete alternative offers on the table what can we do?
7 Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:49:37
The only team moving away from us is Tottenham. They have a top class stadium, an excellent footballing structure and infrastructure in place and they are based in London. The money they now have to spend is largely down to the excellent management of their previous administration.
A new modern and exciting stadium coupled with the new training facilities will give the team an excellent infrastructure, be an attactive prospect for potential signings and provide a greater potential for increased revenue which will show a potential investor that Everton have a good business in place.
At some point in the near future, we will need to rennovate or build a new stadium. Doing it now gives us a major retail partner and the full backing of a local council. Why wait? The only question that needs to be answered is if Kirkby is the right place for it.
8 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:13:50
9 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:30:21
If I was in the anti Kirkby mob I’d get this deleted ASAP.
10 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:31:23
11 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:35:24
12 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:17:29
I do believe there is some truth in Gordons opinion. Is St. Andrews a ground to die for ? Not as far as I am concerned and yet they are also being looked at in terms of investment. It seems very strange, to me at least, that nobody, but nobody, has apparently earmarked Everton as a possible target for investment.
I am not a member of KEIOC and have no alliance/allegiance to them whatsoever. However I do believe that the move to Kirkby has not been thought out at all well. To have the CEO of a large company admit to not having a Plan B is tantamount to dereliction of duty. Even if the alternative is equally abhorrent to the fans there has to be a Plan B !
Just my two bobs worth.
13 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:38:26
14 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:12:48
15 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:02:59
16 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:35:48
17 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:47:28
18 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:46:57
Having read lots of mis-spelt and incoherent rants from Everton supporters I make a few simple, yet in my humble opinion salient, points :-
1.History and tradition wins nothing. See Burnley, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottingham Forrest et al.
2.Liverpool supporters will not stop the rivalry banter just because we stay in ?Liverpool? (whatever that means??) See ? ?. Erm shit Macca, I wuz gonna take de piss outta dem blue nozez, bur eeeemm, now they?re staying in Liverpool I can?t think of any suitable cadish jibes to tease them with ?. Eeeerrmm ?. Aww fuck????
3.Everton are, to put it frankly ???.. potless ?.. Ergo, even if we find an alternative site to Kirkby, we have to find an alternative partner. I can?t wait to see the blues running out at the ALDI stadium.
4.Having read a fair amount of ?Let?s not give in to the redshite by being booted out of the city, it?s our city and we were here first!!!? This is surely a kick-back to the days of my dad?s bigger than yours isn?t it ??? ?Ey Thommo, I caught your little Johnny playin? on the Goodison Park slums the other day ? he could ?ave been killed ??. ? ?Yerr, burr at least he would ?ave been killed within the Liverpool boundaries eh ?..!?
5. Although I have no concrete statistics, I suspect that no more than 50 or 60% of the crowd at every home game actually live within the city boundaries.
6. Imagine the glee that all the whinging, moaning, negativity and bickering is giving to our dear friends across Stanley Park, who have coincidentally just unveiled a 300 million pound airport terminal, sorry, I mean stadium.
7. Please guys, lets all play nicely together like big boys should do eh ??..
8.NOW CAN WE PLEASE ALL GROW UP AND STOP BEHAVING LIKE A COMPLETE LOAD OF FUCKIN? CHILDREN !!!!!!!?? and let?s all stand on a cliff top, hand in hand, looking out to sea and holding a bottle of coke teaching the world to sing the Z-cars theme ??.
19 Posted 02/08/2007 at 17:55:39
20 Posted 02/08/2007 at 18:48:42
Having said that, personally I don?t think Smith?s contribution would warrant 60k a week when you?ve got Mikkel Arteta on 35k per week ?
21 Posted 02/08/2007 at 19:04:59
22 Posted 02/08/2007 at 19:41:49
23 Posted 02/08/2007 at 19:57:32
24 Posted 02/08/2007 at 20:39:32
25 Posted 02/08/2007 at 20:51:01
If Goodison is decrepit, what exactly does that make Fratton Park?!!!
Portsmouth are spending big NOW and now planning a fantastic new stadium. The investment has come FIRST and the stadium will be city centre and mainly funded by an enabling scheme of 600 apartments.
Good argument, Gordon. Thank you.
Kenwright has to go OR bring in investment... he is pauper amongst princes financially. Vote No and bring the buffoon to his senses. I’m sick of the way he is setting us at each others throats. Wake up, fellow Evertonians!
26 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:15:53
27 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:13:41
apparently the club -if you believe their bid of 2 years ago was genuinely meant - once thought that. If you’re saying we can go in to a new season with the current squad your obviously in the pay of Bill Kenwright!
28 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:28:27
Portsmouth get investment because a) they are on the south coast and are more attractive than most, and b) they are the only team in their city and are not fighting with rivals like we are.
They obviously see potential in Portsmouth, potential that is not apparant with Everton.
For the record I don’t want to go to Kirkby I want to stay at Goodison, but I also want us to have a stadium that is going to generate money.
The Kirkby Project is going to give us that and at very little cost to ourselves. In comparison to Arsenal who have had to sell Henry to finance new signings.
Also Dan, if Kenwright goes what will that do? Will that open the door for a rich American to invest? Why would he invest in a club that does not make money without selling players?
So I ask you where do you think the money is going to come from?
29 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:37:04
Bottom line is we need to attract investment, and its not going to happen in the current stadium.
30 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:37:21
31 Posted 02/08/2007 at 21:47:33
They have crowds barely more than half ours and believe me, although Pompey are in sunny Hampshire, Portsmouth is very similar to Liverpool with big Navy and Port traditions and plenty of run down areas.
They have potential though and so do we. In fact, we have much more! Stop selling us short. We need to generate cash, you are right. But, you just assume that Kirkby will solve everything. It won’t. I don’t blame you for falling for the glossy hype and low down tactics ( using Arteta is as bad as hooligan images portrayed by KEIOC ) but the simple truth is that even if KW is right and we have an extra £10m a year, it won’t be enough.
We have entered a new era where local Factory owners or even Theatre impressarios don’t have the financial muscle. Kenwright is a goldfish in a pond of piranhas and he needs to see that and get some help. He’ll have to give up his absolute power, but that’s the way it is.
Kirkby is flawed and so is BK. Sad, but true.
32 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:09:42
If you don’t get it then we are all in trouble. It’s us fans that make the club and there won’t be many to go around when all future scousers will be supporting LFC.
So get real and stop thinking short term. We so need a new stadium. There is no doubting that, but we also NEED to stay in Liverpool.
33 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:22:08
Well, that’s a winning argument, isn’t it? Masterful, Dan, masterful...
34 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:24:13
However, no real case has been made to move anywhere larger other than the wishful thinking of those desperate to escape the red shadow. A kind of ’Things can only get better’ dream of thousands of extra fans, filled corporate boxes and endless media shots of smiling new arrivals on the playing staff. ’No’ voters are often urged to get real. May I suggest the same procedure to yes voters?
35 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:08:34
I have real reservations concerning the earning potential, as we would have to near enough double our Goodison match day income to make £10million available for transfers each summer (and that?s a pretty modest total). This during a time when attendances for established Premiership clubs outside the top 4 are falling as fans become ever more disgruntled with the modern game, I fear that Everton?s attendance projections are overstated and that a move to Kirby could see a haemorrhaging of our support to levels lower than currently seen at Goodison.
36 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:27:13
I just heard a rumour that bestway arent gonna be there, sending a PR firm instead! sounds like there is no buffet after all...
Is tom gonna unveil the real mock-ups for the new stadium hes gonna build for us like? I saw one in the paper but that wasnt it surely! Cos its pants actually.
KEIOC keep sayin wait n see, you’ll all change your minds when you all see how great our plan is for the new stadium, so this must be good ole Tom building up to the real unveiling! what a showman! Can’t wait!!!
37 Posted 02/08/2007 at 22:34:46
ps i agree we need a new ground but also a new board!!!
38 Posted 02/08/2007 at 23:08:19
39 Posted 02/08/2007 at 23:24:05
I’m also proud at the fact that under our board and management we have managed two European Qualification without having Newcastle’s money, Man U’s money or Chelsea’s money. The players we let go were simply not good enough, and for the record we have brought in 4 players this summer if you include Howard’s move going permanent.
Why do people comment without knowing the facts, its speculative bull that makes me take your posts and sprinkle it on my chips.
Has it ever occurred to people that Earl coming on board as a so-called advisor is the springboard to investment? He has come in as an advisor to help us market the club better. He’s taken one look at Goodison and thought you need to move forward, and it may well not be hear.
From a business standpoint, KIrkby is a great opportunity, and at the moment is the only opportunity. Its not eBay, we don’t list the club and wait for the offers.
Its also the same as you don’t sell a battered old fridge and hope to make the same money as a next to new fridge.
40 Posted 02/08/2007 at 23:30:40
The stadium will make more money than just gate receipts. There will be low maintenance costs, well lower than what we are paying now, and that is one reason why we need to move, our ground costs us.
The stadium will generate receipts from other games such as U21 matches, etc....also non-sporting events. Corporate functions, etc....
Better advertising too. At the moment who want’s to advertise in a battered old ground? nobody does, also why don’t we get those fancy adverising hoardings that are computer generated? because we are not attractive to the advertiser. A new plush ground will bring with it better advertising.
Do we need anymore reasons? What if this Kirkby project was in Liverpool? Would that make a difference? If its the fact that we are leaving Liverpool to go to Baines and Stubbs’s neck of the woods, that is so hard to swallow?
41 Posted 03/08/2007 at 00:48:01
Is all this bitching and whinging actually achieving anything?. Until the vote is cast everything we say is pure speculation and is merely filling up Toffeeweb’s server space...
42 Posted 03/08/2007 at 01:06:32
43 Posted 03/08/2007 at 01:19:38
44 Posted 03/08/2007 at 01:24:29
45 Posted 03/08/2007 at 03:13:30
While lesser clubs are reaping the rewards of foreign investors and improved TV money we are supposed to accept that (despite still being the 4th most successful club in the country) nobody is remotely interested in investing in our club. Across the park David Moores, who I imagine is as fanatical about his club as Kenwright is about Everton, realised that the clubs future was more important than his desire to remain in control. Well I for one am convinced that Kenwright is actively discouraging potential investment because he simply won’t give up HIS club to anyone regardless of what is best for Everton.
I urge all Evertonians to say no to Kirkby as this ill thought out venture benefits nobody but Kenwright and Wyness.
46 Posted 03/08/2007 at 06:57:54
On a completely different tack where has all the money gone ? We should have a bagful of money and yet we appear to be skint again. Could somebody please enlighten me as to where the money has gone.
47 Posted 03/08/2007 at 06:59:27
Gordon, why are you comparing us to Portsmouth, Fulham, Birmingham etc, we are Everton football club, 100 years plus in top flight football, that can?t be bad. All the other clubs you mention as being heavily in debt have massive assets in the quality players they have and their stadia, unlike us.
I admire people who stand up and be counted, the KEIOC group have obviously worked hard for something they believe in, however I don?t think everyone has to feel the same way. I?m not too convinced by the tactic of showing video clips of violence around GP was a good idea though. To me it says ?hey this is what you?ll get, so vote NO, we?ll put up with it instead?.
Reality is starting to bite with most supporters and my feeling is people are starting to look at Kirkby as the only option that makes sense. Evertonian?s want to stay in the city but the city didn?t want the supporters until it looked too late.
My biggest worry is that the vote for Kirkby will be a NO and then LCC will not deliver or will only partly deliver. In my mind the Kings Dock was dragged on purposely so as costs would spiral thus fucking up the dream move. Would LFC and LCC allowed us to have the Kings Dock stadium or am I just being paranoid?
48 Posted 03/08/2007 at 08:34:06
Vote YES for a future in the EPL!
49 Posted 03/08/2007 at 09:38:08
Anyway, my main point is for Kirby to work then everyone has to be on board and excited by the concept (ala Kings Dock) this needs to be coupled with an extra 7-10,000 who don’t currently visit Goodison often, to swell the average crowd. It pretty obvious that the vote for Kirby will be no landslide, and a sizable amount of the no camp are vehemently apposed to the move. In terms of the extra supporters, well Everton in the unique position of proposing a move to a larger stadium when they don?t currently fill their existing one. What are these fans currently doing when we play at goodison that they will suddenly stop and come down on a regular basis to watch us at Kirkby? (or any other new site for that matter). I must be missing something!
50 Posted 03/08/2007 at 12:28:38
51 Posted 03/08/2007 at 13:02:57
52 Posted 03/08/2007 at 15:39:38
53 Posted 03/08/2007 at 16:10:57
Can I ask a couple of questions to all to
1— Is Everton's History more important than it's future?
2— Can we afford to stay at Goodison or develop inside Liverpool's boundary?
3— Do we want to stay still for another 5 years whilst we let another Kings Dock slip through our fingers?
I think if we all look at the facts we have been given and at ourselves the answer to the above is a resounding "no". For me that is why i will be voting yes — i dont want my club to die — and I dont want it be swallowed by a pit of debt created by the enormous investment required to build inside the city boundary —i.e. we dont have £50m of assistance offered inside the boundary.
I respect all the views from fellow supporters and i understand frustrations with the inability of the board to attract big investors.
Fact is we havent got a sugar daddy and we dont seem to have anyone interested.
I for one am not prepared to wait for an investor.
My heart says "stay at goodison" and "stay in the city" but my mind says this should strictly be a business decision and that means the most financially sound, lowest long and short term risk should be taken.
"Emotions make people stupid" —someone of note once said—- use the facts we do have to make your "business decision":
- we are SKINT
- we are offered a new stadium at a discount that we can realistically afford without inward investment from a mystery sugar daddy —who never appears—
- goodison needs replacing
- we cant afford to renovate
- we cant afford to buy land in liverpool and none has been offered to us for free
p.s. Nick Toye you have spoken such sense as you have removed emotion from your argument
54 Posted 03/08/2007 at 20:22:35
I heard someone say that they would rather watch Everton in the Championship at Goodison rather than go to Kirkby.
So by removing emotion from the argument, where does it leave us? Well the bottom line remains that we need a new ground. Either by improving our own ground or moving to a new site.
If we also take the "Moving out of Liverpool" out of the equation, then does that change things? On the face of it, is the Kirkby Project a bad idea?
Will crowds dwindle? Not likely, I remember being at Goodison with 50,000+.
However, I do feel we need to balance out the stadium issue with the constant improvement of the squad. And I do concede that at the moment, we seem to be deflecting away from the more important issue of improving the squad.
55 Posted 03/08/2007 at 20:23:15
56 Posted 03/08/2007 at 22:32:28
57 Posted 03/08/2007 at 23:06:12
When we have a new ground, just watch the investors lining up.
Essentially thats the master plan from Blue Bill - the club is sorted and he gets a few bob back - happy days !
58 Posted 04/08/2007 at 07:17:57
59 Posted 04/08/2007 at 09:23:07
60 Posted 04/08/2007 at 10:22:15
I have not read all the details and I’m not sure if this hasn’t already been discussed, but is this a good plan:-
1. Stay at the Goodison location;
2. Work out a temporary ground share agreement with LFC;
3. Knock Goodison;
4. If necessary acquire additional land;
5. Build the new facility on the existing site.
61 Posted 04/08/2007 at 11:04:13
62 Posted 04/08/2007 at 11:32:48
I’m getting piss bored of this debate and am rapidly approaching the don’t care any more point.
Am also with Bob in that I’m not able to get to Goodison as often as I’d like as Im not from Liverpool, but can completely appreciate both sides of the argument.
Aside from the necessity of finding a commercial partner to help fund it (read: almost entire bankroll it), would the Bellefield training ground be big enough for a stadium?
Strikes me its much closer than Kirkby judging by streetmap, is Everton through-and-through, and relocating training facilities wouldn’t be anywhere near as thorny an issue and nor would it be as challenging.
There are probably a host of reasons why its a non-starter, but as a non-scouser (though a proud blue) I’m just curious.
63 Posted 04/08/2007 at 16:07:17
64 Posted 04/08/2007 at 18:21:30
If Everton fans turn down the opportunity to get major financial backing from Tesco for the new stadium, we should all shot.
There is no other funding available from any other commercial source - and funding will only come from a commercial source despite what Liverpool Council say.
65 Posted 06/08/2007 at 13:41:12
So you think the ’designs’ released by everton where better
All they did was copy and paste Cologne’s stagium onto powerpoint and paint it blue. at ;least KEIOC actually DESIGNED something!
Also, no good business goes out without a plan B. Monkeys would have run this stadium isse better!
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