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An Open Response to Keith Wyness: Within Hours

By Greg Murphy :  09/08/2007 :  Comments (117) :

Taking all the points and questions you raise, in the order in which you present them.

You say: ?In the light of the joint statement issued on Monday, August 6 by Liverpool City Council and Bestway, the owners of the "trumpet" loop site located just off Scotland Road, I feel it is imperative that we pass comment both by asking those who regard this site as a possible location for a new home for Everton Football Club a series of highly-pertinent questions and by making some general observations.?

I say: It is indeed ?imperative? that you pass comment. When you say you will ask ?those who regard this site as a possible location for a new home for Everton Football Club a series of highly pertinent questions?, I assume you mean supporters like me who fit into that category? Therefore lies my invitation to respond.  My emphasis, as you say, is on the ?possible?. Like many others, I am highly sceptical of the proposed move to Kirkby and, like many others, I am suitably curious to at least see what the Loop option entails. I would hope and expect that the Club is equally curious to explore as many options as are presented to it, whether they be at the Loop or elsewhere. I would also hope that the ?pertinent? questions you ask about the Loop option extend to you asking similarly pertinent questions, for our consideration, about the Kirkby proposals.

You ask: ?Why, if the site is, indeed, both deliverable and suitable, is it only now being touted as a viable possibility? We, as a Club, have been engaged in talks with Knowsley Borough Council and Tesco about the possibility of relocating to Kirkby for the best part of 18 months and yet only now has this site been put forward as a possible alternative.?

I say: I believe you have, in part, answered your own question there. We all know that you have been engaged in talks with Knowsley MBC and Tesco for the best part of 18 months. We also know that for the last nine of those you have entered, voluntarily, into an ?exclusivity? agreement with those two parties which presumably would preclude any other interested parties (e.g. Bestway, Liverpool City Council) entering into negotiations with you about another option. Wouldn?t it? Therefore, there?s every chance that the Liverpool City Council / Bestway / Loop option came to light during that timescale. However, and I don?t wish to speak for its executive here, but if I was heading a corporate organisation like Bestway I wouldn?t have devoted too much time to exploring a case-potential given that there was no guarantee that a presentation could ever be made to the Everton Football Club. Presumably, the likes of Bestway (and who knows what other potential partners might have monitored proceedings these last nine months?) expected that they could come to the table after the end of the ?exclusivity? period and prior to any fans? ballot. Has the ?exclusivity? period in fact ended? If it has, why are we rushing headlong into a ballot with ?no Plan B?? Would it not have been ?pertinent? to hold-off on a ballot in order to asses what extra proposals have come to the table whilst the ?exclusivity? period was underway?

I believe the Bestway / Loop proposal has only been put forward now because it can only have been put forward now. Moreover, whilst it stands to reason that any other parties were inevitably working ?in the dark? so to speak, given the bounds of the ?exclusivity? period, it also goes without saying that they would have needed the necessary time since the end of July, and your timely pre-ballot exposure of the Kirkby-package, to gauge the composition of that arrangement in order to assess whether they could meet Everton FC?s expectations. Rolling all that together, I suspect that is why the Loop proposal has only ?been put forward? now. I wonder why, though, we are holding the ballot right now? Could we not have waited until the year?s end? Say circa the AGM?

You say: During what was an exhaustive and lengthy search for a suitable and deliverable site within the Liverpool city boundaries not once was the Scotland Road "option" even mentioned.

I say: Again, by your own indications, you have not been looking within the (arbitrary) Liverpool City boundaries for at least the last 18-months. Simply because the Scotland Road option didn?t appear prior to 18 months ago doesn?t preclude it from appearing now. It?s surely just an indicator of how fluid things can be and indeed are. Further, can you tell Evertonians when the ?exhaustive and lengthy? searches started and ended? Where and when? How and with whom? I am merely presenting pertinent questions that might help the Evertonian electorate decide how to vote.

You say: ?Up until two weeks ago, the City Council was enthusiastically claiming that it had sites in both Speke and Aintree which they believed to be deliverable and which they wished us to seriously consider. Since the announcement of the Scotland Road site there has been no mention of either ? why is this??

I say: We don?t know Keith. What was the answer that they gave you when you asked them this question? I can?t imagine why you would expect the rank-and-file Evertonians to know the answer to this question.

You say: ?With regard to the actual availability of the site, we understand that it is has, for some considerable time, been under consideration for the relocation of businesses to accommodate Project Jennifer for St Modwen. Is this the case??

I say: Again, Keith, we don?t know. You?re the CEO of Everton. We?d expect you to know the answer to this, especially if, as you indicate, one of the disciplines and rigours of the Club is to conduct ?exhaustive? assessments of options.

You say: ?In order to provide the retail element which is essential to make any new stadium project deliverable, further land adjoining the current site would be required. Is this land available, who currently owns it and what would the purchase cost be??

I say: I fear I?m repeating myself here, Keith, but again, we don?t know. What did Liverpool City Council say when you asked this question of them? We?d like to know.

You say: ?Would any compulsory purchase orders be required in order that we could attain the size of site we require? If CPOs are required, is it not the case that they could take up to 12 months to attain??

I say: I?m finding it difficult to present new ways of saying this: but we don?t know. What did Liverpool City Council say when you asked them these questions?

You say: ?Liverpool City Council would be required to demonstrate what is known as "best consideration" in any land transactions ? they would have to show that any deal was in the best interests of the people of the city. This, we are told, can prove to be a very lengthy process. Is that correct and is there cross-party support for the Scotland Road site within Liverpool City Council??

I say: I agree with you insofar as I hope that Liverpool City Council would indeed have the best interests of the people of this (arbitrary) city in mind in all transactions, never mind just land deals. As to you suggesting that a ?lengthy process? might be an inhibitor here, I would like to ask what you mean by ?lengthy?? How much time have we got? We?ve been trying to solve the Goodison problem for over a decade now. As such, the Evertonian electorate knows it can?t wait forever for a solution. But how long how we got?

You say: ?Is the site actually suitable? Would a 50,000-seater stadium fit on the available land whilst guaranteeing the required circulation space for supporters and vehicles??

I say: I really don?t know Keith. I was rather hoping you, with your experience of ?exhaustive? explorations would have developed a better instinct for this than the average Evertonian has. From a lay perspective, though, I would suggest that it does seem odd that a cadre of council officials, corporate property executives, and interested experts (such as Tom Hughes and Trevor Skempton) seem to indicate that a 50,000-seater stadium can fit on the available land. I find it improbable that they would risk ridicule if that were not the case. It would appear that, so far, you have not been able to disprove the size suitability either. Again, though, rather than asking us, what did the parties concerned in this project say when you presented these questions to them?

You say: ?We do not believe that the existing transport infrastructure in the Scotland Road area would be able to cope with the volume of traffic generated on matchdays.?

I say: 50,000 seats does not equal 50,000 vehicles. Therefore, I find it odd that you believe a major artery into the City, on a match day or evening (i.e. non work time for many) cannot cope with less than 50,000 vehicles. I don?t know how many vehicles the nearby City of Liverpool can handle on any given day between Monday and Friday but I?m sure that it manages to cope with an influx of 50,000 people. Just as a point of interest, though, might I ask how Everton thought the Dock Road could cope with traffic for 50,000 when the Club was hoping to relocate to Kings Dock?

You say: ? It does seem inevitable that several bridges would have to be constructed. What would be the cost of upgrading the infrastructure and who will foot the bill??

I say: Bridges? Probably. Is that really a major inhibitor, though? You tell me. As for footing the bill: well, again, we don?t know, Keith. What did Liverpool City Council say when you presented this question to them?

You say: ?Would the construction of a development which would also include a large retail element not dramatically undermine ? and anger ? those behind the Grosvenor and Project Jennifer schemes??

I say: It might do. But you?re not afraid of that are you? You know how resilient Everton FC needs to be to even exist in this city, therefore I?d expect that, on our behalf, you?d carry our case (and fight if need be) to them. As for whether it would ?dramatically undermine? such a scheme as the Grosvenor development, well, frankly, I don?t really care. Whilst I?m not really sure that would be the case anyway (the Costco site doesn?t seem to worry people too much), I?d urge the CEO of a resilient Everton not to fall at the first hurdle here. Or even worse, willingly erect barriers on behalf of those, such as Grosvenor, whose first interest is decidely not Everton FC. In short, why meet trouble half way? Don?t be so lilly-livered. Here?s a proposal: why don?t you speak to all concerned and report back to us with a fuller answer. And whilst you?re representing us in these talks, don?t be cowed by them. Fly our big Blue flag high and proud and tell them that we?ve been in this city far longer than they have. You never know, it might cut some ice. And if they?re really impressed with our gutsiness and spirit we might even have a few new corporate clients on our hands to boost our revenue streams. Good plan, hey?

You say: ? Is there not a very real possibility of a legal challenge from these other developers??

I say: I refer you to the previous answer.

You say:  ?What is the proposed timeline for any development on this site? We believe it would take between six and nine months to complete a comprehensive feasibility study, a further six to nine months to prepare a planning application and then an additional four to six months to receive a formal planning decision. In addition, if the scheme was to be "called  in" by central government, the entire project could be subjected to a delay of anything up to a year.?

I say: Again, Keith, how can we know the answers. What did you find out when you asked all the relevant parties? I would ask, though, what is the timeline for the Kirkby project? Yes, I know that you?ve said 2010. But I have concerns that firstly the Kirkby Residents Action Group are determined to exercise their democratic right under the Local Government Act and demand a residents? ballot on the proposal. Might this not delay things? Further, and although I?m no expert, isn?t there a very real danger that the Kirkby project will be called-in by Government? If it is called-in, how long would that delay matters for? I?m only curious because I?ve noted your careful costings and I?d hate to think that spiralling construction costs could force you to reconsider our finances.

You say:  ?Without wishing, in any way, to call into question the integrity and professionalism of those who have pulled the Scotland Road "rabbit" out of a hitherto cunningly-concealed hat, we do find it curious that it is being portrayed as a genuine, realistic and deliverable scheme at the precise moment our supporters are being invited to participate in a ballot about our proposed relocation to Kirkby.?

I say: I?d hate to see what colourful prose you would resort to when you are questioning the ?integrity and professionalism? of others. I?m not sure about rabbits. I?d rather talk about plans, as in ?Plan B? or ?Plan C?. But we?ll call them ?Rabbit B? and ?Rabbit C? if you wish. As for the hat being ?cunningly concealed?? Maybe it was hidden behind the magician?s table of  ?exclusivity? that has prevented any other tricks, rabbits or stadium proposals to come to the fore these last nine (oe even 18?) months. Just like that.

You sign yourself:  ?Keith Wyness, CEO, Everton Football Club?.

I sign myself: Greg Murphy, ordinary Everton fan and Park End Season Ticket holder.

Reader Comments

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Steve Claringbold
1   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:16:03

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Something you should know about Let’s Call The Whole Thing Off Lyrics

Title: Louis Armstrong - Let’s Call The Whole Thing Off lyrics

Let’s call the whole thing off!!!

Verse
Things have come to a pretty pass
Our romance is growing flat,
For you like this and the other
While I go for this and that,
Goodness knows what the end will be
Oh I don’t know where I’m at
It looks as if we two will never be one
Something must be done:

Chorus - 1
You say either and I say either, You say neither and I say neither
Either, either Neither, neither, Let’s call the whole thing off.

You like potato and I like potahto, You like tomato and I like tomahto
Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto, Let’s call the whole thing off

But oh, if we call the whole thing off Then we must part
And oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart

So if you like pyjamas and I like pyjahmas, I’ll wear pyjamas and give up
pyajahmas
For we know we need each other so we , Better call the whole off off
Let’s call the whole thing off.


Chorus - 2
You say laughter and I say larfter, You say after and I say arfter
Laughter, larfter after arfter, Let’s call the whole thing off,

You like vanilla and I like vanella, You saspiralla, and I saspirella
Vanilla vanella chocolate strawberry, Let’s call the whole thing off

But oh if we call the whole thing of then we must part
And oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart

So if you go for oysters and I go for ersters, I’ll order oysters and cancel
the ersters
For we know we need each other so we, Better call the calling off off,
Let’s call the whole thing off.


Chorus - 3
I say father, and you say pater, I saw mother and you say mater
Pater, mater Uncle, auntie, let’s call the whole thing off.

I like bananas and you like banahnahs, I say Havana and I get Havahnah
Bananas, banahnahs Havana, Havahnah, Go your way, I’ll go mine

So if I go for scallops and you go for lobsters, So all right no contest we’ll
order lobseter
For we know we need each other so we, Better call the calling off off,
Let’s call the whole thing off.
magicjuan
2   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:13:41

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I posted this on the echo forum after I read his piece, mine varies slightly but I think we’re on the same wavelength

It’s another very amateurish attack by Wyness and having just read it I will hopefully make points paragraph at a time

p2 Why doesn’t KW mention any dialogue with LCC? 18 months dialogue with tesco and KMBC is a lot longer than I was aware of, so perhaps EFC weren’t interested in dialogue with LCC

p3 The Loop has quickly become the preferred destination of fans, and as such with such a time constraint due to the ballot it makes much more sense to concentrate on the one site that has availablity , interest from backers and support from the fans

p 3There has never been a mention of relocating business to project Jennifer, but KW question does raise the point that retail options are already there

p4 Compulsory purchase orders would be needed in Kirby too, so that cancels out that

p5 there is cross party support for it

p6 First investigations say yes, proposal due for publication today apparently (coincidentally )

p7 Existing transport system in kirby would need reviewing also

p8 No legal challenge envisaged as would form part of a regeneration programme and enforceable

p9 same question re kirby. There is no planning permission for kirby, some say or think that is a formality but not necessarliy so, look how many times the r/s have had to go back with revised plans, their new ground hasn’t got planning permission yet due to revised design.
Central government can still draw up kirby proposals

p10 very un-clever, to deny calling into question integrities and then to do exactly that, phrase of hitherto ’cunningly concealed hat’ challenge the integrity of LCC and bestway and all the supporters who want this site and proposal looked into.
Why the curiosity on the timing when he release this statement the day that bestway are due to release their plans first draft?
Participate in a ballot, one where people are having multiple ballot forms delivered?

Mr Wyness, unfortunately , to me , you are acting in a pompous manner and without integrity. You are employing propaganda tactics that are both patronising and condescending to the supporters of this great club, and as the Chairman has stated he will abide by the wishes of the supporters, can you Mr Wyness not accept that there are many more questions that need answering by the club from the supporters mainly due to the fact that your ineptitude in this poor PR stunt of a proposal is the reason a lot of fans don’t trust or support the scheme.

Typically amateurish Mr Wyness
_________________
onwards evertonians
Lee
3   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:20:25

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You could have shortened your entire response to every question Wyness has asked into one sentence that you stated above.

"I say: I?m finding it difficult to present new ways of saying this: but we don?t know. What did Liverpool City Council say when you asked them these questions?"

Precisely. You don’t know. Wyness asks a question, you don’t have an answer. Neither does LCC or Bradley or Bestway.

Amateurish? What Wyness is done is paint the picture of what Bradley is trying to do - and his tactics are truly amateurish; weak, scared shitless politician.
Lee
4   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:22:57

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"I say: I really don?t know Keith. I was rather hoping you, with your experience of ?exhaustive? explorations would have developed a better instinct for this than the average Evertonian has."

Can’t you actually take a step back, take your own advice and assume he HAS!

My word you’re your own worst enemy!
John Charles
5   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:24:42

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Youre living in cloud kukoo land. you’re all living in cloud kukoo land. vote no if you dont want to go to kirkby, but as someone else said, this loop nonesense, please, its not even closer to being viable, ayone can see that. there are 100 reasons why it isnt.
Kevin Wood
6   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:11:46

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Greg, thanks for your post which was said with such clarity. I am also a Park End season ticket holder. I feel Mr Wyness’ position is quickly becoming untenable, he is increasingly looking like a playground bully. I cannot support his attitude to fellow Evertonians who also have the club’s best interest at heart. His dismissal of ideas, other than his own is at best high handed and at worst downright rude. I am insulted by the CEO. I will not be railroaded or blackmailed by the man who has always appears to put his own self interest first. I feel Everton Football Club’s best interests are not being served. I received my ballot paper along with all the propaganda. There was no balanced argument.No alternative views were allowed. I know Everton have to move forward but not with this man as CEO. Exclusively yours, Kevin Wood.
Brian Finnigan
7   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:16:24

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I will be brief (for a change)....an excellent riposte to the half-baked, attempted abortion of the loop proposal. It is about time that the fat controller started answering questions. Apparently, he has missed many opportunities to ask the relevant questions of others and is showing as much backbone as a blancmange in defending the right of Everton Football Club to remain in this City. He ought to be ashamed of himself!
Andy Mac
8   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:22:56

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Well said, Lee. What a load of pompous nonsense from Greg Murphy. All Keith Wyness is doing is putting into the public domain the questions that at this point, when at the 11th hour the half baked "loop" scheme is being used by those opposed to Kirkby to derail the ballot, should be asked by any thinking person. Every point he makes is, in my opinion, absolutely valid. I even checked on Google Earth and superimposed the existing Anfield footprint onto the "Loop" site to ensure that no "slight of hand" was being used in the ilustration that CLEARLY shows that a stadium such as envisaged in Kirkby could not fit in "the Loop". Not even Anfield could. AND that doesn’t even address the size of the underpinning foundations during construction, and health and safety issues about cramming 50000 people going into and emerging from the ground surrounded by a 60 foot "moat" containing moving traffic entering the tunnel. Lets get real, folks. However, I await a more reasoned response from the people to whom Mr Wyness’s questions are actually directed (i.e. Clr Bradley and the Bestway Team) before actually casting my ballot vote. Even though I curently do not hold with their viewpoint, I accept their right to answer the questions posed.
Steve Claringbold
9   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:37:10

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Brian,

Are you sitting down?
Are you ready?

I actually agree with you!!! There I said it.
Gerard Madden
10   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:38:19

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Deep down we all knew the loop was far too small and it was more than likely only mooted as a last minutes face saving exercise for cllr Bradley.

Bestway are a small cash ’n carry compared to the evertonian led billion dollar giant of Tesco and the thought of having a cheapo ’stadium’ on that tiny site sends me cold.

I’m glad now our club has put its boxing gloves on and ASKING the questions now - long overdue.
Peter C
11   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:33:45

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Greg Murphy said what I have been thinking. I have said it before and wil say it again - we want the RIGHT option not the ONLY optnion. It should not be for the fans to find the RIGHT option. After all aren’t we the ones that are doing the paying and shouldn’t those that are paid be doing the finding? If Kirkby is the RIGHT option then fine - but prove it!
Anchorman
12   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:40:12

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You can’t build a stadium on a sodding roundabout. Why is ’The Loop’ even being slightly considered as a plausible option? ’Plan B?’ More like ’plan Z’.
Peter C
13   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:54:48

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The Loop is not the issue - I agree is is like trying to squeeze size 10 feet into a size 8 shoe. The real issue is that EFC have not looked properly for the RIGHT site for our new stadium and they should have done and still should be looking instead of being romanced by the "deal of the century" in an equally unsuitable location.
gh
14   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:45:41

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gregg murphy,

this article sounds like the rantings of a madman. Wyness is asking questions we all know the answer to. He is wording it so that he he does not need to go into tiny details, naming names and embarrassing people.

Who do you think will pay for bridges etc? Of course it will have to come from us. You think LCC will say "no hold on lads, we have a bit of spare change here is a couple of hundred grand to build your bridges!" ?

The main point, thats should shut everyone up, once and for all, is the THE SITE IS TOO SMALL!!!!!!! Surely thats all we need to know, or do you lot want to move into a smaller 30,000 capacity stadium, so we can stay in the city?
We all knew it, from day one, just look at google earth or livelocal, you will see, its not big enough. Full stop. End of debate.
I dont really want to move to kirkby, but I know for a fact that the loop will not happen. So its time to leave it.
Andy Mac
15   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:50:37

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Peter C. Sorry M8, but whenever I hear the "we want the RIGHT option" argument I can only keep thinking about the following. 1. I have no doubt that so do the EFC Board. 2. They HAVE explored alternatives, and have formed a view, armed with all of the facts, that Kirkby IS the right option. 3. The Board owe a legal duty to the shareholders, but they are going beyond their legal obligations and putting their recommended proposition before the fanbase. 4. Whenever they make any announcement or comment in support of their recommendation, some moron dismisses their attempt as being "propaganda". 5. The more frantic and personalised the attacks on the Board from some of the anti Kirkby lobby become, the even less inclined I am to take the authors’ seriously as having any understanding of the economic and engineering considerations that go into a major project such as this, although I respect their views about the social issues, while disagreeing that they are paramount. The phrase "tilting at Windmills" springs to mind.
Lee Mandaracas
16   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:53:59

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A number of KW’s questions are entirely valid and fair. However, it was his tone that (for me) so badly let him down. I would question why it has taken so long for him to reply if The Loop is so immediately infeasible unless he has noted a groundswell over this last fortnight or so. This is a prime exapmple of some of the basic propaganda employed by the club that I have found rather distasteful, such as using players? and management?s commitment to reinforce their case ? was that a pre-requisite of people signing, to have the new stadium guaranteed? Why were their opinions held back until convenient times in the ballot? Also, a number of the ?facts? in the ballot leaflet are extremely fuzzy as others have already pointed out on this site.

Most remiss of all, he conveniently offers the relevant parties no opportunity to reply, thus rendering his questions entirely redundant in that format and altering them to presumptuous statements blatantly (and rather cumbersomely) designed to discredit without addressing anything at all. Many of the official website?s articles offer the right to comment. Not this one. They all offer the right to use the ?thumbs up? button, including this one, but where is the thumbs down button?

I found the final paragraph most laughable of all opening by stating that he did not question the integrity of parties involved but in the same sentence going on to mock them with ?rabbit out of hitherto cunningly concealed hats?. Ask questions Keith, sew seeds of doubt by all means but don?t reduce yourself, and our club, to amateurish jibes and one-sided arguments any further. Admittedly, The Loop proposal may be too late but at least have the cojones to discuss, or even rubbish, it in an honourable fashion. If Mr Wyness wishes to demonstrate he does in fact have a pair, perhaps he could offer a debate on local radio or television to face the people he is willing to facelessly question and mock. Prove us right or wrong, we don’t mind. Just prove something!

It shouldn’t matter whether my opinion is pro or anti Kirkby (although I know most of you will draw a predictable conclusion). Quite simply, I found the ’Open Letter’ both unprofessional and not in the least bit statesmanlike, as one would have every right to expect of a company?s Chief Executive Officer. He should be above such playground antics, however frustrating he may find it.

Fantastic writing, as ever, Greg.
Brian Finnigan
17   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:02:45

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Steve Claringbold.....I was sitting down and now that peace appears to have broken out lets exchange song lyrics....I think mine goes something like...."You never know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone. They sold Paradise and put up a Parking Lot."
Robbie Muldoon
18   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:02:15

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The sly fat man that nobody likes is steam-rolling the move to Kirkby. Nobody likes him, and I dont like his plans.

No to Kirkby. Sack Wynesss. Kenwright Out.

Then let’s see where we can go from there.
Steve Claringbold
19   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:13:02

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What I would’ve liked to have seen is all the city options that were looked at and reasons why they weren’t feasible. At least if I had that info I could fill my vote in and finally send the blasted thing back, safe in the knowledge that I had all the info at hand with which to make an informed decision.
Art
20   Posted 09/08/2007 at 18:50:13

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At the end of the day , we all want the best solution for EFC . As the CEO of Everton fooball club , mr Wyness should be open to all proposals put forward , the serious ones anyway , the ’ loop ’ plan should at least be considered by our board and not dismissed out of hand as a devious plan by those wishing to undermine the existence of our club , This is a serious option that deserves a full investigation , I don’t know if it’s a viable , deliverable alternative but I’d love to know for sure because in 3 years time , if it has been proved to be the best choice we could have made and we’re playing our home games in kirkby then IT’S TOO LATE !!! Let’s find out before we burn our boats
Lee Spargo
21   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:14:29

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Madness

Vote on the Kirkby issue on it’s own individual merits and faults. Do not even let this Loop nonsense enter your mind when casting your vote.

We are just as likely to be playing on top of the Radie City Tower as we are at the Loop.
Andy Mac
22   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:18:54

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Art, totally agree with your sentiments. SO, let’s hear a response from Mr Bradley , Bestway, and their experts to Mr Wyness’s questions. What happened to the "full details" that the Loop Group were supposed to be making public earlier today? No sign, it seems. BUT, in the meantime, Art, I commend you to read the contribution by gh posted at 18.45. I think we all know the direction the "Loop" proposals are going. Maybe once that lunacy is exposed for what it is, we can actually get on with the vote.
Karl Parsons
23   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:13:54

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We are turning into a fucking laughing stock with all this shite!
I just want the season to start, some fucker to make a decision where our new home is gonna be, then hopefully we can re-unite as the fans we once where.
All this infighting is killing me!
PLEASE NO STADIUM PROTECT ON SATURDAY - FOCUS ON THE JOB IN HAND; 3 POINTS.
Oh and one more thing; what’s with all the song lyrics? Have you all been on the piss with Digsy Deary or something?
Andy Mac
24   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:29:01

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Amen, Karl.
nick
25   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:07:13

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im sorry greg but i normally agree with a lot of your comments but i find this whole article is blinkered and stubborn .

its a lot of talking but your not really saying anything imo.

it seems like someone who isnt getting there way so is flinging crap for the sake of flinging crap.

i see no substance here for an anti wyness and say no to kirkby campaign.


t256256
26   Posted 09/08/2007 at 20:08:01

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Could Mr. Murphy please explain who’s going to pay for the loop?
Eric Myles
27   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:43:58

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I sent the following to nick.coligan@liverpool.com, the Echo report I readon line does not appear to be anywhere near as comprehensive as the one that Greg responds to but we’ve got much the same opinions


KW says the following and my answers follow


KW- A stadium of the size of the Kirkby proposal would not fit on the
tunnel trumpet site.
A - But a stadium the size of Arsenal’s new Emirates Stadium WILL fit in
there! ( 60,000?)

KW - The location was never mentioned during the club?s ?exhaustive and
lengthy? search for a new home within the city boundaries.

A - Does the phrase ’Period of Exclusivity’ ring a bell? Why has not more
time been allowed for a Plan B to be developed before the vote on the
ground move "to Kirkby or Bust"? Is it because the Club don’t want to
listen to alternatives?

KW - The club does not believe the Scotland Road area could cope with
matchday traffic and said bridges would have to be built so supporters
could get to the stadium

A - But Kirkby can? Pull the other one Keith! For the club that has the
most number of fans that walk to the match and one of the best dispersal
rates afterwards you want to make it virtually impossible for supporters to
walk to the ground, are not providing sufficient car parking spaces and
there is insufficinent public transport nor the capability to expand
existing transport (Soccerbuses) without adding to congestion!

KW - There is ?a very real possibility? of a legal challenge from
developers Grosvenor and St Modwen who are developing major shopping
districts nearby.

A - They haven’t objected to Project Jennifer which is just over the road
from The Loop and into which it could be incorporated. Also I understand
the LCC/Bestway proposal is to have a business centre associated with The
Loop development which Grosvenor would not object to as It’s not a thret to
their commercial retail (not business) activities. Why don’t you wait until
LCC/Bestway release their proposals until you criticise them?

KW - ?Why, if the site is both deliverable and suitable, is it only now
being touted as a viable possibility?
A - Does ’Period of Exclusivity" ring any bells?

KW - ?We have been in talks with Knowsley council and Tesco about the
possibility of relocating to Kirkby for the best part of 18 months. ?And
yet only now has this site been put forward as a possible alternative.
A - Hey Quasimodo, does ’Period of Exclusivity" ring any bells?

KW - ?Until two weeks ago the council was enthusiastically claiming it had
sites in Speke and Aintree which they believed were deliverable and which
they wished us to seriously consider. ?Since the announcement of the
Scotland Road site there has been no mention of either ? why is this??

A -Possibly because you didn’t listen to them before and they thought they
would have to come up with another alternative that you might actually
listen to? By the way, what’s the Club’s objections to Speke and Aintree?

A question from me. Why is it that the Board have said that redevelopment
of Goodison Park is not possible when it has been proven that it is?

And one more question. When you say that a Project is ’undeliverable’ (such
as redevelopment) do you mean we have no money to fund it? If so just say
so right out and you might get a bit of support from the fans for your
proposals.
Eric Myles
28   Posted 09/08/2007 at 20:11:27

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Brian Waring,I suggest if/when we move to Kikby we replace our themes ongwith "The Leaving of Liverpool"

Although I do liket hte idea of the "Big Yellow Taxi lyrics you suggested.
Tom Hughes
29   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:59:40

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Well said Greg.......The whole loop thing exposes KW’s ineptitude. He should know all the answers..... he was told about this site 6 months ago, (yes 6 months ago when the loop first appeared on this website) when Trevor Skempton first brought it up. He should know everything about it if he has done his job right, if not he has failed. Saying Scotland Road can’t handle the influx really illustrates his grip on the whole stadium issue and the way the transport/traffic functions in this city. The city centre handles significantly greater numbers every rush hour with less than half its current capacity utilised. As the focal point of the vast majority of bus/train routes it can absorb this influx without any alterations. How come he isn’t highlightling the diametrically opposed situation with Kirkby? Miniscule public transport, and only a handfull of traffic lanes from the city. Pedestrian briges on 2 or 3 sides of the site will probably represent about 2% of the stadium cost, so why is this even worth a mention? The totally one sided propoganda, and this fundamentally flawed outburst points to desperation. The failings of this CEO/board in studying all the options are glaring. If given a fraction of the time that the club have had to formulate their one hit wonder, the loop proposals will grow into something similar to the King’s Dock plan. Can anyone honestly believe that if that plan and the Kirkby one were voted on that the latter would receive more than a few percent? tops?
Billy Moore
30   Posted 09/08/2007 at 20:39:00

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Articles like this are just going to sway fans towards voting yes.the loop site is a joke to be honest can’t believe people are taking it serious
Rupert Sullivan
31   Posted 09/08/2007 at 20:33:20

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Greg, thank you. Your lucid and straightforward article clearly highlights the failings I believe are inherent in this whole debacle. Personally, I do not want to move to Kirkby, however I see no reason why KW cannot answer the questions he raised about the loop, about Kirkby. All EFC fans can postulate about size of solution and other issues, but how many of us actually have any real facts with which to support a solid business case either for or against?

Wyness’ approach to this whole thing is nothing less than shoddy, he does not deserve to be in the position he is if this is the way he chooses to conduct such a delicate and important issue.

I do not wish to be treated as an ignoramus foisted off with lies and innuendo. If he truly wanted the fans to be a part of this process then he should have provided us with some information.
karl masters
32   Posted 09/08/2007 at 20:43:05

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Greetings from Italy! Having a great holiday and I think that Mr Wyness needs to take an extended one! Waste of space and an amateur are things that spring to mind. Exhaustive search , my arse! Even if the Loop has only just come up, he should be professional enough to fully examine it... we are not talking about some trivial thing here, its our future for the next 100 years! Cannot see anything other than a No vote when I get home. Hope I see you at the airport Keith... leaving the country!!!
Anthony Newell
33   Posted 09/08/2007 at 21:04:37

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’the loop plan should at least be considered by our board and not dismissed out of hand as a devious plan by those wishing to undermine the existence of our club , This is a serious option that deserves a full investigation’

Well said Art
Dave
34   Posted 09/08/2007 at 19:25:38

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Greg

Thanks for your efforts mate,you articulated my thoughts precisely. I find it astonishing that the CEO can produce an eleven paragraph letter asking, nobody in particular, no fewer than eighteen questions,
What are EFC paying this guy for ?

Greg merely repeated his request for the Fat Fella to reveal the answers to his "pertinant" questions, because he’s confident, actually no, like the rest of us he knows, Wyness - who cant disguise his complete indifference to the clamour for imformation by thousands of true blues - hasnt even bothered to ask them.
He darent let a few fact take the eye off all that spin.
For every positive, for everytime anyone has overcome the odds, whenever anyone has pulled of the most unlikely of victories, there has always been the naithsayers, the negative, the unimanginative, the energy sapping deadbeats, those who dismiss anything that requires a little effort, some positive thinking, a will to prevail, a determination to succeed.
You might want to justify selling your souls, by pretending you believe Wyness, but you fool no one.Perhaps you recognise something of yourselves in him ? go on, piss off to kirkby,
but please dont insult the rest of us by claiming you took anything other than the soft option
Andy Norbertson
35   Posted 09/08/2007 at 21:12:11

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The loop is 14 acres, Arsenal?s ground was built on a plot of 8 acres. I?m no structural engineer, so I?m not going to pass comment on whether it would/wouldn?t fit, all I ask is that we are presented with the FACTS to enable us to make an informed decision. The number of people making statements that it can?t fit and so it is ?undeliverable? astounds me - how the hell do you know???
The fact that we are being railroaded into a ?do or die? vote without other sites being given the opportunity to present themselves fully, due to the exclusivity period, makes me very nervous. Ask yourselves why Wyness is so eager to present a completely one-sided arguement and pour scorn on any alternative when he clearly has no idea of the details. What is the mad rush to get Kirkby signed and sealed? What?s in it for him? What are the financial details or the Kirkby proposal? If Wyness professes to act in the best interests of Everton?s long term future, surely it is incumbent upon him to study this proposal and not actively seek to undermine it.
George Carroll
36   Posted 09/08/2007 at 21:15:06

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Iwould just like to know whether Wyness has any business interest in the Tesco deal,as indeed his contract terms allow.
Alex May
37   Posted 09/08/2007 at 21:30:20

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Greg, I think there’s a man at Goodison on £470k per year who’s doing your job (badly).

One thing you did forget is to mention is that Kirkby does require CPO’s, which only seem to be of concern to him should the same need to happen on Scottie Road.
robert treacy
38   Posted 09/08/2007 at 21:42:26

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i dont see the point of arguing. how can kw rubbish a proposed site for a new stadium if he doesnt have answers to the questions. if he does have answers let him share them with us.

vote no to kirby!
john
39   Posted 09/08/2007 at 21:19:42

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I know i’m digressing a little here , but when David Moores realised he himself could’nt afford to fund a new stadium, he organised a world wide search to find someone who could.
Now before we move out the city, why can’t Bill do the same.
toffee rapper
40   Posted 09/08/2007 at 21:56:33

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Typical KEIOC response:
Answer a question with another question. For a minute I thought they had an answer to KW’s (and mine and other fans questions) nut no, more rhetoric, the fact is the questions posed by KW are very pertinent to a situation thats been "pulled out of the LCC’s arse" (as I prefer to put it, I think KW was being diplomatic in my view) right on the eve of the ballot.
So, we are still waiting: Answers Please!
John Charles
41   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:16:26

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Keith Wyness is more qualfied, has more of a business brain, more experience and more intelligence than any of us. Thats why he has a proven track record as a CEO and none of you -myself include- do not.

I still don’t understand why he wants to stich Everton up like some of you would have the rest fo us believe? He’s putting his professional reputation on the line. If he moevs us and it didnt work out he’d struggle to find a similar job again.

The Loop. Farce, total farce.

The no briage say us yes voters hacve ’fallen’ for wyness spin. - well TAKE A LOOK IN THE MIRROR FOLKS. The only spin is out of LCC and you’ve taken it hook line and sinker.

Again, if you dont want to vote for kirkby vote no, but do not do ti on the basis of this Loop none sense. total complete utter utter bollocks - a vein attempt by LCC to save fac and votes come election time. Are you are stupid?? seriously, you must be thick. Thats the only conclusion I could draw.
robert carney
42   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:13:40

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John Charles;
you arrogant bastard. You quote 100 reasons and do not state one. If that is the level of your contribution keep it to yourself. You do not help anyone from either side.
mick m
43   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:09:11

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Well said Greg. Just another piece of propaganda from the inept board we have in charge of our club. The booklet was full of it with the ballot. The Loop site issue has been proposed for a few weeks now, so the timely response by fat arse the day after we all receive our ballot papers is more than a co-incidence to me.

For someone to say there is no plane B, be offered a plan B and respond to that offer by talking to the local paper is nothing short of narrow mindness and blind ignorance.

Mr Wyness and Mr Kenwright. You have a duty on behalf of all Evertonians to exhaust all avenues prior to making a decision. You have been involved in an exclusivity agreement for the last nine months prohibiting you from discussing plan B. Well now, plan B has been offered. So look into it rather than respond to the offer by issiung a statement to the Echo.

And for all these supporters on here saying, ’please, no protest, get behind the team’. We will get behind our team as we always do, but I for one will be singing to the top of my voice:

’YOU CAN STICK YOUR FUCKING KIRKBY UP YOUR ARSE’

And I wont stop, and I can assure you, there’s thousands more like me who’ll be doing exactly the fucking same because Saturday is worth 3 points. Moving grounds is worth our future and our heritage. Something I thought as an Evertonian, would never be taken away from me. Well, were a yes vote away from that happening.

NO TO KIRKBY, nil satis nisi optimum, nothing but the best is good enough. Kirkby is not the best.
John Charles
44   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:36:37

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100 reasons for what?

I said Wyness is a talented CEO and he is. The Australian Olympics went down as the best in history did it not? There’s 1 big reason. Bringing Aberdeen out of the red into the black? theres 2. Did I say 100? Hows about Everton having record turn over? thats 3. Hows about Everton breaking there transfer record twice in three years - 4.

You guys are pillaring a CEO, totally pillaring him.. and for what? His crime?

His crime is the hideous hideous deal he has negotiated to get us a stadium worth 150m for 50m with only 20m debt. And then he even gives you the chance to say no via a vote like no one else has or ever would.

So vote no, vote yes, decide yourselves, but even if you vote no you should commend the guyfor giving you the choice and chance of this deal.

To call for his resignation as some have is simply incredible, totally totally insane - he’s doing a fabulous job.

As for me being arrogant, problem I am, but I’m sick of people pillaring a guy who is only doing his job and is doing it to the best fo his ability, doing a good job.

He’s given you a fabulous choice - you should be commending the guy even if you vote no.
Andy Mac
45   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:25:30

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Hell, this is all so depressing. All this anti BK / KW / anyone associated with managing EFC s**t is clouding the basic reality that THE KIRKBY PROPOSAL GIVES US THE INVESTMENT THAT OTHER CLUBS EITHER HAVE OR CAN ONLY DREAM ABOUT and it is within our grasp. And it has been negotiated and is on the point of delivery by a Board that most of the vociverous "NO" voters insult and denegrate in every sentence. There is nothing else on the table. Why does anyone think EFC have a God given right to expect anything better or different? WAKE UP. The Board have got a FANTASTIC deal available.

The "Loop" is a fantasy. Even Bradley seems to have conceded that anywhere else "on offer" within Liverpool is no longer an option.

Kirkby IS LIVERPOOL / MERSEYSIDE. "We’re the Pride of Merseyside"? "The men who came from Merseyside who sailed the Seven Seas"? "Z Cars"? What the heck is all this b*****s about "abandoning our roots"?
robert carney
46   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:30:59

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Toffee rapper, can you explain your contribution please.KW has raised questions, they have been answered. Can you on behalf of all sane people make your point before you go to your usual threatened state and be barred for life.
chris taggart
47   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:32:54

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eric news flash for you

18 month exclusivity period? dont make me laugh the period has been in existance only since 12/12/2006 the clapse of kings dock was feb 2003

bully anounced plans to move as long ago as 21/12/2005 added to which KMBC were able to offer EFC 3 possible sites as long ago as 31/05/2006

why are LCC now only coming to the fore, bradley has been caught with his pants down yet again

blaming this on 8 months of exclusivity is utter nonsence, the board arn’t to blame for the lack of presentable options, LCC are
John
48   Posted 09/08/2007 at 21:48:05

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I would just like to make a few points, I have a vote and will be using it.

The Loop option will not work. Not enough room, too much traffic and far too costly. Bestway want to replace an inappropriate site for them for a better site for them, They are not interested in EFC.

Goodison is old and past it, remember the last time we had major redevelopment we were very nearly relegated - too much focus on the ground and not enough on the team!


Kirkby is part of Liverpool, as much as Huyton or Walton or any district within LCC. However I am not convinced about the deal of the century, too much reliance on partners who have their own agenda,they are only interested in what EFC can provide for them.


The club have made a fatal mistake in putting the vote to the fans, this has resulted in Evertonians argueing with each other makeing us look like a small provincial club. We may not be challenging the top 2 in terms of results but we should be leading the way in how a club should be run!


The Board of Directors should make a decision on the way forward for the club, they should not be hiding behind the fans. I could never imagine John Moores shirking his responsibilities to his beloved Everton.br />
I will be voting no, I want to send a message to Bill Kenwright that it is his responsibility as the major shareholder and Chairman to lead the club forward to bigger and better things and not to give himself the opportunity to blame others should things go wrong. He should look at how DM manages, he takes responsibilty for the decisions he makes, like any decent leader would.

Finally we should all concentrate on the new season. It is vital that we get behind the team in the best way we know how, DM may not have brought in many players but at least he hasn’t bought crap like many of the other premiership clubs. I have supported Everton all my life as did my father and grandfather, I went to watch them for the first time at the age of 7, 42 years ago. I will support them for the rest of my life wherever they play! Once a blue always a blue!!
Neil Pearse
49   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:48:09

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I am a minority on this site now I know, but when I read KW’s letter my reaction was: Good for you Keith! Some fight at last! Quite right to be angry at the LCC! They have done nothing for us, and are now trying to hide their own embarrassment.

KW has developed an extremely attractive deal for the club in Kirkby, supported by the most powerful retailer in the UK. At the last minute a fantasy proposal has appeared out of nowhere to save Warren Bradley’s political arse when he at last realised that Everton actually had developed a much better proposal than the LCC was ever going to come up with.

All you going on about the exclusivity period don’t understand it. That did not prevent in any way the LCC publicly coming out with another proposal. KW is absolutely right to ask: why now, at the very last minute?

Let me ask all you who are so against KW about this: why now, at the very last minute? Has the Loop been hiding for the last few years under a big rock? Don’t you find it even a little bit strange that it only came out when Everton were balloting its fans on a move out of LCC territory to Kirkby?

They have made mistakes for sure, but it is incredible to me that most of you put more trust in Warren Bradley than Keith Wyness and the Everton Board.
robert carney
50   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:44:48

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J>C>If KW has committed a crime ,it is the usual one of a person in his position. Totally un-economical with the facts. Why does no-one from the yes camp include this period of exclusivity within their arguments. The premeirship has invited at least seven takeovers within this period.Yet we are led to beleivr that the eighteenth richest club in the world is not interesting anyone. Face your natural opinions to say yes to anyone in authority and start questioning their motives/ asser tions. Do not become a brownnose for the rest of your life. ask pertinent question.
robert treacy
51   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:01:06

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john

i saw that wrot on a t shirt once i think it lasted a couple of years before it faded.

kirby is not the best option.

as for the lcc just because its late does not mean its a crap proposal and should be investigated fully
pete m
52   Posted 09/08/2007 at 22:56:52

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Chris Taggart, John Carles, Andy Mac...well said.

I dont get these people, they think that we are siome superclub who every millionaire is just dying to throw billions at.

KW has done a great job so far, people who call for his head are ignorant and probably the people who when you try to talk sensibly about a differing opinion get all red faced and just shout their point louder and louder.

why does everyone think he is up to no good? He isnt perfect and may have made the odd mistake in his job, but can anyone claim their professional reord is 100%? No chance.

I reckon the people who moan about the bopard are the type of people who moaned when we came 4th, but just scraped in, and were callin for moyes head after tottenham last yr.

Grow up, understand that this club is not top 4, unfortunatley less than the best is what we will have to put up with for now, due to the millions of debt piled up during the johnson years. And before anyone hits back that BK was there then, he was not in charge and eventually got rid of Johnson.

If we dont get Kirkby, i reckon we will sit it out at goodison for the next 10 years, Kirkby will become part of LCC, LFC will have a massive new stadium overshadowing ours and we will watch our beloved blues drop down the league, then the divisions.

Then the moaners will have loads to moan about, maybe they will enjoy it.
Alex May
53   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:06:29

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John Charles - you really scored an own goal with that one. The Sydney Olympics? I suggest you read all about Wyness’ part in that one through this link.

http://www.hcourt.gov.au/media/Zhu.pdf

Come on now - record turnover. Every premier league club has, it’s called getting ever higher monies from sky. BK’s only contribution to the turnover is by flogging off our fixed assets, sometimes before they’re even built!

Breaking our transfer record twice. The first time it was by spending a little over a quarter of the money received for the sale of one player. Well done again Keith. Refer to the point about sky money again for the second time. It took us over 5 years under BK to break our transfer record.
john
54   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:12:41

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Robert

I still have it on my shirt. Difference is I mean it!! If you knew my history you would believe it!!

Vote no - make Bill prove he is a true blue by showing strong leadership in maing a decision in the best interests of the club!
John Charles
55   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:13:40

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Robert Carney:

I do mate, I do...and I’m not having a pop at you, if you vote no i’ll respect you totally and agree with many of your opinions on it. I’m just trying to put my views across incase you have missed information. I have read everyone else’s views incase I did.

In regard to "why has no one invested in everton" here is why, like I have said, two reasons, I think number 2 - you decide:

1) Kenwright has rebuffed all talk over inquiries and simply doesnt want to sell.

or

2) Investors ’invest’ because they want a Return -a profit- on investment (roi). Buying everton out would cost 40m mimimum. They would pay interest on this 40m used to buy it at 9% ish per year. Thats 3.6m per year. So thats 43m invested. How do they make a profit? they increase revenue and turnover. Like The yanks at the tin mine are planning, like glazer is, they stick it to the fans, charge more, increase revenue via tickets, corporate everything.

problem for everton? Everton already at maximum revenue - hard to make any more money being at goodison - we are operating near capacity in everything.

So, then they have to build a new stadium with 150m ish to make it bigger and increase corporate and tickets in order to increase turn over. That gives them a bigger stadium to increase revenue.

20million downpayment needed plus say 100m x 9% interest on this = 9m a year interest out of club turnover. So our investor needs to increase our turnover by 9+3.5m just to service debt every season never mind eat into what he paid and spent on the stadium.

... very very difficult.

Whereas, if he had a bigger new stadium with say only 20m debt attached to it - be it the loop or kirkby or goodison - he would have a chance to make his ROI.

I’m not saying vote kirkby or not, really on this I am not at all

..its just been drawn to my attention this is why no investors are queing up to buy everton. I wondered too..but then I thought long and hard about it and spoke with some people in commerical investment groups - I work in finance for a living.

Its not about present turnover, its about potential to increase and grow the business - we cant grow the business without a new stadium somewhere hence no ROI. Make sense?

But as I have said before... go look what Kia Joorbachians been doing with Corinthians in South America turning them into a farm team for europe and know that we should pick and chose investors carefully if and when that time comes.
Col
56   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:10:22

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I dont know if the loop is a viable option, financially or land size wise.

I do know Keith Wyness told us there was no plan B, that we had to go to kirkby now, before Goodison became unusable in 10years time.

I do know that after the club said there were no other options, other options are now coming to light.

And I do know Goodison has a few years left in it before it completely falls down (SIC)

What matters isnt who is right or wrong.
What matters is what is right for Everton.
Surely the club HAVE to be open to looking into the other options floating around. If they are inherently flawed, it will show up soon enough anyway.

Why not just explore these options and postpone the vote for a few months.

Would that damage the kirkby deal of a lifetime so much ? are the Kirkby council and tesco insisting everything is done asap ?

Why vote on kirkby right now ?
After 18 months exploring kirkby, why not spend 6 months exploring these potential other options ? What is 6months when the decision affects the next 100 years of the club ??
It doesnt matter who said what when and why these things came to light now. What matters is doing whats best for Everton.
The board should have the courage to postpone the vote and explore these options for a few months.

If it doesnt, then why not ?
What is it scared of ?

We are all supposed to be on the same side, we all want what is best for EVERTON. With that in mind the board has to be open to explore these options, it is not too late, and 3-6months is not too long considering the decision at hand.
Everyone is on the same side, we are Evertonians. Call off the vote, sit down and talk, then lets see what the options TRULY are.

What can Everton possibly lose by doing that ?
robert carney
57   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:11:41

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Why do you think people trust Bradley? I do not beleive they do.

The people who question the motives and moves are rightly or wrongly true Evertonians.

They have looked at the clubs findings are not convinced by their conclusions. With very little little resources they have come up with one alternative and the council/ Bestway have delivered a second. We await there deliberations with a lot of interest, due tomorrow.

An important part of this debate is the exclusion of Peter Kilfoyle the membr of parliament who represents Walton. Why is this abominable person not trying to keep a major employer / stroke buisness in his constituency.

At this late stage there are still many answers to be delivered. From Everton and Tesco, From Liverpool City Council/ Bestway. By our elected representatives in parliament, from the NW Devolopment Council. The only way I see for and hope for clarity is to VOTE No.
Barry Bragg
58   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:12:27

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What is this argument all about?

1fan = 1 vote

We EFC fans are going to decide our own fate. If the majority of us want to go to Kirby we go.
If the majority of us don’t we stay. How simple can it get?

Both sides are guilty of lies both sides are guilty of bully tactics and deceipt. The Club have given us a vote I wonder if the KEIOC would have been so democratic? Somehow I doubt it.
bootle blue
59   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:37:32

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Well, it’s one fan several votes in lots of cases.
As for the ’letter’ from Wyness - it’s totally unacceptable.

We’re all fans, shareholdrs, voters and season ticket holders. Not once in his letter did he indicate that he intended to look at other options. This says to me that he is a minor inflexible businessman with little or no vision.

He will NOT be around in ten years. Most of us will be.

Vote NO make them look at alternatives.
John Charles
60   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:44:42

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Col:

the thing everton have to lose is this deal from kirkby and tesco. if we vote no it becomes dead and buried.

then what? in x months when we say "oh nothing else does exist" do we have kings dock syndrome all over again "should have done that"

see the point?
bootle blue
61   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:43:23

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As an aside, toffee rapper should look at google earth which shows the actuial site of the Emirates could fit in the loop but would require moevement of the roads.
col
62   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:26:42

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The villains in the piece are not KW or BK. Just let’s get real and see who we are up against and it’s Liverpool City Council. This is the body which agreed to plough up acres of green space (Libdems preaching to us about conservation, makes you want to throw up), grant a 999 year lease and charge an ANNUAL rental of less than half the WEEKLY wage of Steven Gerrard.

When asked to come up with a similar deal for EFC? Zilch. I think Wyness has got it spot on and its about time we got nasty about the way we’ve been treated by LCC.
Steve Ryan
63   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:25:08

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Greg, once more an excellent piece of work. I am astounded that a CEO would publish such a letter on a fans website. This is the act of an extremely desperate man who knows that the huge groundswell of support against the Kirkby option will ultimately lead to his downfall. As people have already mentioned, this lying, deceiptful cretin made a quick exit from Sydney after his Olympic ticket distribution company was found to be involved in fraudulant activities. Vote NO to Kirkby.
chris taggart
64   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:40:59

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all of you thinking bestway are some squeaky clean saviour might want to cheeck any socialist principles at the door

got news for you folks its got nothing to do with helping everton and everything to do with tit for tat aginst tesco

whilst paying some of that 73 milion profit to the conservitive party
bootle blue
65   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:55:27

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Wyness is desperate. He will make a comission off making this deal and then piss of somewhere else.
We will be left with a-cowshed-in-Kirby.

I wonder if in his heart of blue hears Bill is praying for us to Vote no.


robert carney
66   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:34:08

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J.C.;

Everyone knows that the Premeir League is big buisness. We all know over the last five years that Everton are underperformers not just on the field

I do not doubt the figures you quote but I would like to analyse them with further facts.

I do understand with you that ROI is a major factor unless you have an Abromovich who is willing to lose in the short term for credibility with goverments not to mention his own ego.

I would never envisage a person like this taking over the Blues.

But regarding investment, is it wise to take a club so close to a so called thriving economy away from its natural roots and dis-enfranchise 50% of its natural support?

There are many other factors regarding ROI, how are Man Utd and Liverpool going to get the growth they need to service the debt levels. Man U surely at home are at the limit. Liverpool have missed twenty years of potential after the Heysel debacle. One of which I beleive they are not responsible.

I would rather invest in Everton with a truly growth potential than any of the previos mentioned clubs. Albeit within the city Of Liverpool. To reiterate many other comments previuos to this week, the first growth has to come from the football field. Fergusen, Kendall, Shankley (I hate to admit) started on the pitch. Figures mean nothing without this.
Lee Mandaracas
67   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:40:13

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John Carney

You are right, Keith Wyness has done an excellent job on some fronts. Improving our finances as a company and investment in the squad (presuming he is the driving force behind both and I have no reason to think he is not).

However, the offer of a ballot for the fans was nothing to do with KW, it was Bill Kenwright who proposed it and assured us we would have a voice. KW’s duty is to implement it and, understandably, sway the vote to the agenda of the board. Unfortunately, as much as he may have performed in certain areas, this does not grant him a green card when he falls short in others. In not answering the questions himself, he is failing.

I also resent the assumption you proposed in your first response to this piece that absolutely everyone on this site is beneath KW, indeed you went as far as to say we are all less intelligent than him. "Keith Wyness is more qualfied, has more of a business brain, more experience and more intelligence than any of us. Thats why he has a proven track record as a CEO and none of you -myself include- do not." Have you both gone to the same school of vague, unfounded verbal attacks that are impossible to prove or disprove?

The only protests against KW worth listening to are the ones asking for answers, and there are plenty of us doing that. There is no need for personal attacks on the man’s character so for that you have a point but we both have to ignore the rantings of the passionately irrational on either side of this argument. At least, we should.
bootle blue
68   Posted 10/08/2007 at 00:00:27

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chris are you insane?
Just look at:

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/tesco_profits_just_not_cri_19092005.html


Tesco are appalling, I doubt if Bestway badness even comes close to the dodgyness of Tesco.
This isn’t an issue about bad guy vs, bad guy, this is about a Football club.
Everton is bigger than both.
robert carney
69   Posted 10/08/2007 at 00:03:31

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One last thought before bed, why are not the shite having this debate?

Is it because they are staying close to Analfield . True bloody right it is, they prostituted themselves around the world till they got the investment they required. We settled for a deal of exculsivity with Tesco. Enough said.
ToffeeDan
70   Posted 10/08/2007 at 00:29:59

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I have been swaying between Yes and No for some time now. I have to say that I suspect that this swaying is down to listening to both sides of the arguments

The positives for me about Kirkby are this:
1. A brand new stadium (with good views) and (presumably) good facilities all round - something to be proud of.
2. Affordable - it looks like we (the paying public) won’t be tapped up to pay for it
3. Achievable - Everton can afford it (at a very good price it has to be said
4. Timely - can be done in a couple of years
5. The club has asked the fans to decide - which other club would do this?

The Negatives are as follows:

1. It’s in a place I have no association with - I don’t know the area or the general facilities (pubs?). Is it safe to park your car (or is this "club" car park going to be a tenner to park?)
2. Driving away (time)
3. It’s not where I think Everton should be (Liverpool) but I think that the associated business partners just wouldn’t materialise in Liverpool (btw I rather suspect they won’t show up at New Analfield either)

The Alternatives:
1. Goodison really doesn’t look a starter (footprint/cost etc. etc.)2. I can’t take to any other current realistic option being put forward in Liverpool - The Loop I just don’t like at all. I totally support Wyness’ open letter - the Council and Grovesnor will object. Yes it sounds good but in reality where are the plans? What are the costs? Where on earth would we park? How long would it take? As Bully says "what’s happened to Speke and Aintree now the Council has jumped on the Loop and said "see, we told you there was somewhere"". Of course it’s easy to forget that the vast majority of Councillors are parochial fools with limited big business nous and experience - invariably they are a mix of Trade Unionists and small businessmen. Sorry but how can anyone trust an idiot like Bradley?In fairness to Wyness and the club even if the vote goes their way they would, I am sure, listen to viable Liverpool options before signing on the dotted line - if such a good thing does exist. That is why he also objects to the timing of the Loop publicity.

Before we slag Wyness and the club off totally you should remember he attended a KEOIC meeting at the back end of last season - fair play to him. You should also remember that the KEOIC people, genuine fans though they are, are all voting with their hearts. The stiletto issue here is, basically, Kirkby isn’t Liverpool. If they were totally set against leaving Goodison they wouldn’t have come up with the Loop scheme.

I believe that, at the end of the day, I (and you) should vote with my/your head - having had to listen to all the heartstrings being pulled by everyone’s opinions.

Toffee Dan
Graham Rathbone
71   Posted 09/08/2007 at 23:56:34

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I agree with Col, why are we taking any notice of Bradley and the LCC? these are the people that helped the RS to secure a large part of one of Liverpools greatest parks, while they offer us a feckin roundabout. They will be voted out of power soon enough anyway.it seems like a last ditch attempt to save face to me. Now Warren now that we know that the cities precious greenbelt can be dug up, how about Walton Hall Park?
John Charles
72   Posted 10/08/2007 at 01:02:44

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RC!

"Man U surely at home are at the limit"

nope. Glazer has introduced a compulsary cup ticket scheme. Man Utd season ticket holders have been charged 350 quid ish (cant remember the exact) been taken direct out of there accounts with season ticket. The club are charging them for ALL domestic cup ties as if everyone of them is at home and they make the final. If they get knocked out or drawn away they don’t even get a refund it simply gets knocked off the price of the following seasons season ticket price.

sucking it to the fans at old trafford for sure. Glazer did the same in tampa with the Bucaneer’s - spent money on team, put club into debt to buy it and stuck it to fans to pay for the debt.
John Charles
73   Posted 10/08/2007 at 01:08:21

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Lee:

point taken mate. I do believe we should trust him though.. and I do firmly believe that even if you want to vote no you should and we should all recognise he has done his job really well finding us this deal 4 miles from goodison.

whether the boundary thing is enough for you to vote no or not, its a good job from him... and as you rightly say, the personal attacks on him are very poor - to be frank they are disgusting and I am embarrased by some of the things some of the less articulate amongst us write about Keith Wyness.

chris
74   Posted 10/08/2007 at 01:08:52

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okay ive heard lots of opinions and every time i read an article i change my mind on the whole debate.

I’ve now realised that the only opinion that matters is our beloved Davy Moyes, who actually beyond all expectations gave us some hope and pride, can i remind everyone only a few years ago we had little and dwindling fast.

I believe in BK and the board, but lets not forget there it for buisiness and love comes second.

I buy everythin everton from the shirts to the match to .tv subscriptions. Its love that makes us the wheels spin, As paying fans our opinion counts. With out us they would’nt he a pot to piss on.

Lets all get behind David %100, if he says it lets make it so, if he wants the move then lets do it.
Alan
75   Posted 10/08/2007 at 01:12:23

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John Charles writes: Youre living in cloud kukoo land. you?re all living in cloud kukoo land. vote no if you dont want to go to kirkby, but as someone else said, this loop nonesense, please, its not even closer to being viable, ayone can see that. there are 100 reasons why it isnt.

I Write: Give me one good reason then..you can’t leave it at that without a reason.

"The Loop" here we come, vote no to Kirkby
Ann Adlington
76   Posted 10/08/2007 at 02:04:06

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http://www.hcourt.gov.au/media/Zhu.pdf

End of Keith - you wouldn’t know the truth if it hit you in the face. The loop - here we come! Don’t take the piss out of intelligent scousers - We’re onto you.
John Charles
77   Posted 10/08/2007 at 02:01:37

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1) You really think Grosvenor are going to let them build retail less than 2 miles from there multi-million pound develepment when they have a contract stating that they are the major new development in the city retail sector? It will almost certainly have competition provisions to protect grosvenors investment. They dont just say ’arh liverpool doesnt have much, lets just build a new shopping center and 200 flats and hope no one else does either’.

2) Project Jennifer doesnt need everton. Project jennifer is a done deal, why do they need to divert money to us when they already have there approval and funding in place? what extra do we bring financially to the project?

3) the site would require extensive foundation work and diversion of existing road networks.

4) Just because you can squeeze a stadium on it does not mean its suitable. Parking? traffic congestion? its one thing having walton slowed down on a matchday, but a whole other thing having the main access point to the city from the wirral jammed nose to tail. It would be chaos. can you really see city centre business wanting a stadium every other saturday clogging traffic up? They will see it as inconvenience to there customers and a reason not to go shopping.

5) Bestway are going to give it us for free? Are they bollocks

6) Bestway are going to give us 100m to build with? are they bollocks

7) LCC are going to give us 100m to build with? are they bollocks

8) Everton have 100m to build with? do we bollocks

9) If kirkby on a cleared site costs 75-100m retail to build, then surely with all the traffic, site, infrastructure, and foundational problems this will cost double? certainly millions and millions more. It costs 1.25m for every mile of regular motorway built from scratch - so imagine the costs of permanent road diversions here

10) Planning permission and consultation process will take between 1-2 years. In this time city centre land will appreciate at an average rate of 10% PA (-I live city center so i keep in touch with land deals). So, add the extra costs (-which was crucial in the kings dock fiasco as by the time we got our act together the land was worth much more). Also add steel prices soaring with that market’s unprescidented price rises and construction costs going up and up.

11) We need retail to fund it... why are commerical shops - e,g highstreet stores going to want to put there stores on the loop rather than Liverpool 1 (grosvesnor)? it makes no sense? So even if they can build commercial space in, who is the customer?

No offense or anything. Like I said, if you don’t want to go kirkby I understand and respect, but it pisses me off to see LCC trying to dupe honest blues into voting on the basis this Loop nonesense. New Goodison has more chance than this farse of a plan.

LCC in my opinion are clearly covering base and face for if we vote yes ’we had anothr site for you and you didnt talk to us’ - bollocks. Bradley is a politician. You think its any conincidence the results of Bestways/LCC’s feisability study come a week after the vote has closed? they just want you to vote no to put themselves in the box seat with Everton in new negotiations. LCC are a total utter shambles.

sorry for the typo’s its late and ive been working all day!
John Charles
78   Posted 10/08/2007 at 02:26:04

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I dont understand how that Australia article has any bearing on us or our ceo and this stadium issue what so ever?
Its late, but did I miss something? From your posting you seemingly imply he is some kind of criminal? isnt this just a guy trading without a license when he was given one?

x file stuff. Character assisinations aren’t going to do anyone any good I dont think. Personally like. I think he’s doing a good job..at one point i was goingto vote no, but even if I had, you cant hide the fact its a boss deal he’s got us from Kirkby.
Pete C
79   Posted 10/08/2007 at 06:04:44

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This vote is the biggest decision that any of us will ever make in our lives, bigger than proposing marriage, bigger than having children, bigger than anything else. This vote has much greater and longer lasting implication, affecting the history of a great institution and the future generations of Everton fans.

So it must be a vote based on information. If Everton have looked at other options and disregarded them, then let us know and let’s move to Kirkby. If Everton have not explored all of the realistic options then should we not delay the vote until this has been done? My vote depends upon this.

If Kirkby is such a great deal for EFC and Tescos then it can wait until we have completed our research, but it will not wait forever.

Let us remember we are all on the same side and the deal that is on offer, on the face of it, really is the deal of the century.

Let us stop all the snide comments about KW, BK and each other, it is shameful.

Let’s all re-unite starting on Saturday against Wigan.
Andy
80   Posted 10/08/2007 at 06:35:50

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What a complete nonsense article. These questions are not for Evertonians to answer but LCC and Bestway. I would prefer to hear the response from the LCC and Bestway before I decide which way to vote.

The Loop should be investigated further, however we have a "costed and real" alternative on the table. The possibility of the Loop is just that - no one as far as I am aware has told us how much debt we will incur and how it will be delivered.
Getting a bit Bored with the Subject!
81   Posted 10/08/2007 at 08:10:09

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For F’s sake why cant this f**king bickering stop. Everyone thinks that they know better, and it seems to me that some are not thinking in the interests of the club, but their own f**king personal glory!
At the end of the day, this move issue has only to do with the fact that there is another b@stard team in this City. If they where not around, who’d be arsed then?
I dont give 2 sh!tes where Everton play, and just like going away, I’d follow them anywhere.
So soft lads (and lasses) remember you are all Bluenoses, toffeemen, Evertonians - no matter where you come from. Tomorrow is for getting behind the team; shouting, singing as one voice. No f**king handbags inside the ground tomorrow, otherwise Piss off now, you’re no Evertonian.
Phil Harrison
82   Posted 10/08/2007 at 08:22:52

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I am probably going to vote no on my ballot, but the only reason is that I can’t personally bear to leave the City. I am thinking with my Heart rather than my Head. The problem I have with this response is that Mr Murphy has completely missed the whole point of Wyness’ Open Letter. To me this ’Trumpet’ Site should be renamed the ’Trumped Up’ Site ! It has no chance of being deliverable in my opinion, it is just a desperate atempt to throw a spanner in the works of the Vote. As I said I will be a no voter, but I have a horrible feeling once there is a No vote then the Council will sit on it’s unbelievabley incopitent hands again an leave us to rot !!

It doesn’t matter how much of a Blue Warren Bradley is, he is only one Councillor (Council Leader means nothing). There are another 50 of the who my not care if Everton when bust.

I don’t blame Everton for approaching Kirby or vice versa. Unless your initials are LFC Liverpool City Council don’t care about finding us a new home, they just don’t want us to leave !
Bayne
83   Posted 10/08/2007 at 08:13:27

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Kirby is not the answer to all of Everton’s money troubles, nor any is a new stadium at this point. A successful team is the answer. I know we need to move, eventually! Merely for the fact that Goodison is is a shed (as much as I and everyone else loves it, it’s true)

You don’t need a new ground to get into the Champions League or to win trophies...Everton have proved this in recent years.

Stick the kirky project, the loop and everything else to do with it up your arse.

Let’s get behind the lads and win some fucking trophies!

COYB!
Phil Harrison
84   Posted 10/08/2007 at 08:48:08

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I am probably going to vote no on my ballot, but the only reason is that I can’t personally bear to leave the City. I am thinking with my Heart rather than my Head. The problem I have with this response is that Mr Murphy has completely missed the whole point of Wyness’ Open Letter. To me this ’Trumpet’ Site should be renamed the ’Trumped Up’ Site ! It has no chance of being deliverable in my opinion, it is just a desperate atempt to throw a spanner in the works of the Vote. As I said I will be a no voter, but I have a horrible feeling once there is a No vote then the Council will sit on it’s unbelievabley incopitent hands again an leave us to rot !!

It doesn’t matter how much of a Blue Warren Bradley is, he is only one Councillor (Council Leader means nothing). There are another 50 of the who my not care if Everton when bust.

I don’t blame Everton for approaching Kirby or vice versa. Unless your initials are LFC Liverpool City Council don’t care about finding us a new home, they just don’t want us to leave ! These questions were aimed at them not us.
Dave Scott
85   Posted 10/08/2007 at 08:31:24

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What a load of sh*te.

Are Bestway proposing to give financial assistance to the tune of £50 to £75m - no because they have no direct benefit (unlike Tesco in Kirkby who need the stadium). We are skint - whether a stadium would fit on the loop, speke, aintree the docks or wherever we couldnt afford it without the assistance of either an individual sugar daddy or a ’Tesco’ equivalent. We have not found that white elephant anywhere else other than Kirkby - if we had, do you not think the Club would have avoided this sh*tty vote and all the hassle that comes with it by proposing a nice shiny stadium within the boundary.

The club arent proposing this site to be difficult and to piss everyone off - they are proposing it because without major backing elsewhere it is the only financially viable option that is open to EFC.

Nobody can doubt BK’s affection for Everton and nobody suggests he is a crook who is takling back handers....so why would he suggest moving us from the City?

Please dont be blinkered by proposals within the city because if we could afford them we would be building there already.

Make your decision based on the merits of Kirkby - not some unaffordable make believe that might or might not happen.

p.s. remember the kings dock collapsed because of funding probems.
p.p.s personal insults towards the chairman and CEO do nothing to add credibility to any NO vote and are completely unnecesary.
Bayne
86   Posted 10/08/2007 at 08:55:05

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The Everton Board are not bothered where we go in my opnion. They will always as usual go with the cheapest option.
Col B
87   Posted 10/08/2007 at 09:46:46

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For the record the col who posted at 23.26 is not the same Col who posted at 23.10 - as such I’ll switch to Col B in hope of less confusion. . .

I still dont see how postponing the vote loses us Kirkby and Tesco as someone suggested

I also think we need to realise we are all Evertonians who want whats best for the club, now that other options are appearing they HAVE to be explored. Either to put them to bed or otherwise.

This decision affects our future for decades, 6 months to explore potential other plans is nothing in comparison

chris taggart
88   Posted 10/08/2007 at 09:49:43

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bootle blue if that is your real name:)

I’m amazed that the yoghurt knitters had enough energy to type the peice, i am not insane, i know tesco are not a white knight, but dont be fooled that bestway are not fueled by the same motives as tesco

i used to think that the yes/no’s were split because of the nos desire to preserve the core support from the walton area but i have now formed the view that it is clearly socialism v capitalism that is forming the views on both sides of the argument



Karl Hamel
89   Posted 10/08/2007 at 09:58:04

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Oh Gregoriev - what a hornet’s nest you have stirred up! Well done and mission accomplished.
I have been reading the comments and cannot believe some of the tripe written. I’ve nothing against anyone who lives, works or plays in Kirkby. As far as I’m concerned they’re as scouse as the rest of us. But one thing is for sure - ten years from now every Evertonian will be crying into their pint and saying "Why did we roll over?" Why didn’t we do something about it when we had the chance?"
I cannot believe some Evertonians seem to be behaving just like the sheep at any other club. WE ARE NOT ANY OTHER CLUB. IF YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT YOU NEVER WILL!
Remember, it’s never too late until it is too late.
Hannah
90   Posted 10/08/2007 at 09:41:34

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To those defending Mr Wyness on his letter and asking the questions, I feel you have probably missed the point of Greg’s article; Wyness in his position as CEO should be publishing the answers given his position and the access he must have to those putting forward the proposal. It seems a bit rich all these tough questions coming from someone who won’t in turn take tough questions from fans challenging the Kirby Project. Surely we should be expecting higher standards from our CEO, and applauding normal fans trying to fight the massively one sided PR power machine that has become the Kirby project in an attempt to open up the debate? Excellent article Greg, I only hope Mr Wyness reads it.
Getting a bit Bored with the Subject!
91   Posted 10/08/2007 at 10:15:47

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Once again, For F’s sake pack it in. Get a grip of yourselves and start behaving like Blues; Rational, objective, whitty, open-minded, LOYAL. Its getting to the point where you’re all starting to act and sound like those kopite tw@ts with the the rabid, blinkered, name-calling sh!te that is being posted!
Blue In Bolton
92   Posted 10/08/2007 at 10:07:30

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If Keith Wyness told you the earth was round, some of you would call him a fat lying bastard.
His riposte to L.C.C and Warren Bradley, was timely, and very pertinent.
The Loop is a non starter.
And this article is just another complete waste of time.
Shop steward mentality at its very worst.
Argue till you’re blue in the face trying to prove black is white

Anyway..is’nt there a footy match on tomorrow..?
Prenton Blue
93   Posted 10/08/2007 at 11:05:43

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The loop is a farce. who would pay for it? You might as well get try to get funding to build it on the moon.
There shouldn’t have been a vote in the first place. It’s the job of a management board to make big decisions on behalf of the shareholders. Kirkby will be built whichever way this vote goes.
paul
94   Posted 10/08/2007 at 11:28:11

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Interesting link to the EFCSA website and report of the meeting with Bestway. Also piece in the post about the other LCC alternatives which were evidently ruled out by their cheif executive. Should blues supporters really trust LCC more than EFC?
Spanish Billy
95   Posted 10/08/2007 at 11:19:09

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Well said Annie, if anyone wih a little bit of intelegence would see right through this fat lying bastard. Remember if you vote yes you will have to live with that decision all your life. Can you picture it now, any event in the city will just be ALL about the shite. We struggle to win arguments now, imagine what it will be like in the future. As my bolton wanderers friend always reminds me, we will never fill the reebock stadium because a lot of wanderers supporters cant be arsed travelling the 5 miles out of bolton to home games.
Quacker
96   Posted 10/08/2007 at 12:03:00

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Pathetic!
J.Connolly
97   Posted 10/08/2007 at 12:04:23

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Yet another article that reeks of a desperate man trying to poison the minds of the undecided.

There are a couple of things I will say. Everton are not known as a Liverpool team, they are known as a Merseyside team and moving to Kirkby wont change that! We will still be ’Merseyside Club Everton.’.

Liverpool FC have always and will always be associated with the City of Liverpool because they are bloody called Liverpool. That wont change!

Anyone who knows North Liverpool i.e. Sefton and Knowsley are fully aware that the new ground is only a 5 minute drive from Fazakerley Hospital, not the other side of the world.

And people who say Kirkby is not in Liverpool, well neither is Bootle, Seaforth, Litherland, Crosby, Waterloo, Maghull, Netherton, Melling. These areas house the bulk of Evertons local support so try telling these people that a five minute drive from Fazakerley Hospital is gonna make ’em support Liverpool.

You anti-Kirkby lot need to realise that this is a golden opportunity for EFC. For me and many other sensible Evertonians, the move to Kirkby does not destroy our history, it secures it!
jr
98   Posted 10/08/2007 at 11:11:04

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It seems like a lot of people are willing to risk the clubs financial and, as football is now a business, its football future because of a city boundary. Quite simply the Kirkby deal is a good one.
1. We get the land
2. We get a new stadium
3. The overall cost to EFC is very small and the debt will be minimal

The Loop site is not a practical and deliverable project. Practical - a roundabout is not the site for a football ground.
Deliverable - cost, cost, cost. Who is going to pay for the land and then the stadium? EFC have no money to.

Those of you who have a vote - vote with your heads and for the future of EFC.
And, finally it begins tomorrow. COYB!!
gh
99   Posted 10/08/2007 at 12:47:22

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tommy hughes, here is what a big firm think about your plans, now respond by giving all kind of technical answers which we all know are as useful as a chocolate teapot
http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/analysis-of-goodison-option.html
John Nelson
100   Posted 10/08/2007 at 12:54:39

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Keith Wyness was giving his opinion - yet again a certain minority decided to misinterpret and manipulate by saying he was stating incorrect FACTS; now is it no coincidence that it is these same people who are coming out with the FACTS that Everton will only go downhill if we move to Kirkby?

You go on about Everton blatantly dismissing the other "options" available, when it is yourselves who are blatantly dismissing the Kirkby option! Contradiction defined or what!

Get a grip and get behind Everton, no matter what happens. If you stonewall refuse to follow Everton for the sake of moving 4 miles down the road, then you were never an Evertonian in the first place.

Come on you blues.
Robbie Muldoon
101   Posted 10/08/2007 at 13:31:25

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The OS claims that the redevelopment of Goodison would struggle to exceed a 40,000 capacity.

Bullshit.

A double tiered Park End would boost capacity instantly!
gh
102   Posted 10/08/2007 at 13:46:32

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robbie did u read the link, those facts dont come from the club they come from a professional firm, who wouldnt lie if they wanted to keep their professional reputation
John Nelson
103   Posted 10/08/2007 at 13:44:39

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Without getting into a slanging match or some sort of heated debate, please could some of you "No" voters tell me how a move to Kirkby would:
- be bad for us?
- ruin us?
- lose us money?
- lose us fans?

If you would please write your response in leau with the way I have asked questions in this article, I would be grateful.

I can relate to some of the reasons why a move to Kirkby might not be the best option, but other reasons I have read or heard are just absurd and unprofound. So enlighten me please!

Come on you blues.
Barry Kingham
104   Posted 10/08/2007 at 15:36:53

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I think Everton are terrified that they’re gonna lose this vote. The messages coming out of Goodison are now complete attacks on every other opinion other than their own.

Its obvious they’ve spent a fortune on the Kirkby Project and don’t want to lose it. Keith Wyness’s job is on the line here. They still haven’t explained why the Bestway site isn’t suitable and they won’t meet the Bestway management.

The whole thing is a complete public relations nightmare for Everton and is in danger of getting nasty within the fan base. Everton should suspend the ballot: lets get all the facts NOW and put them on the table.
Neil Holmes
105   Posted 10/08/2007 at 15:38:29

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Find it hard to believe that we are still arguing over this issue. In an ideal world we would all love to stay in the city but lets face the "stone cold facts" if we could identify a site that was viable where is the funding to build a new stadium coming from......I have not heard one sensible suggestion as to where we are getting £150-200 million from and I haven?t heard LCC offering us any towards building a new stadium in fact they couldn?t as this would leave them open to a claim from the dark side for a similar fee towards the building their new ground.

As for the tunnel loop your "av’in a laugh? if you thought that getting to Goodison on a match day was bad just wait till you have to sit in standing traffic on Scotland road or exiting the tunnel! there’s only one road in and one road out of the loop and that?s onto Great Homer street not only that but there are no parking facilities as anyone who’s been to Greaty market on a Saturday will tell you!

We have the opportunity to move to a new stadium and incur little or no debt...sorry but for the future and good of the club this is a "no brainer". Don’t be confused by sentimentality and the fact that we are handing over the city! Is anyone going to care where we are if the move allows us to have a more successful team when we are consistently challenging for honours!

Don’t let your fear of the Darkside’s chants and abuse sway your decision! When have we ever cared what they say in there Scandinavian accents anyway...I hope that?s the only thing they have to sing about when we are more successful and there scared of what we are doing on the pitch!!
Blue In Bolton
106   Posted 10/08/2007 at 16:34:41

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Spanish Billy...

I’m from Bolton Mate, and you’re talking bollocks.
robert carney
107   Posted 10/08/2007 at 18:02:05

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RE. Wyness’s latest study by KSS.

He employs a firm which writes a report he wants.

A certain Mr Streckland a recognized expert on stadia says it is feasible(free of charge).

He also takes the study away for further deliberations.

Make your own conclusions. Mine is Wyness will try anything to de-rail the no vote.

Nelson and Bolton Blue, you have consistently talked shite throughout this debate. The equivalent of sticking your fingers down the throut. Soon your noses will be covered with brown smelly stuff as well.
Michael McCarthy
108   Posted 10/08/2007 at 19:10:18

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Greg very succinctly summarises some of the bluff nonsense that has characterised Keith Wyness’s disregard for the fact that offering up and promoting discussion on alternatives to Kirkby (which may yet prove to be the best supported option) do at least provide the reassurance to fans of the necessary litmus test and cost benefit analysis required to better demonstrate the validity of the case for Club’s preferred option.

Rendering alternatives, fostering debate and providing illumination will aid the Kirkby option, if Keith Wyness is right about its ’unique’ merits , not undermine it. Or does he think ordinary fans are just plain thick and might undo his many months of hard work on our behalf through a misplaced decision through the ballot box?

Keith Wyness has shown a surprising lack of understanding that Evertonians simply do not wish to be philibustered or patronised. Some of us actually work in development, planning, architecture, regeneration - and our club is currently an integral and historic part of a major city requiring still a boost in each of these disciplines. An EFC stadium would facilitate this and do it closer to home and to far greater effect - but most of us just have the nagging sense that we have been dealing with a fait accompli all along.

Keith’s panic at the possibility that we might end up thinking for ourselves was well demonstrated by his knee jerk criticism of the Bestway option yesterday.

Do let us work this out for ourselves Keith, we really dont need your paternalistic guidance.I for one have now become as exercised by the CEO’s at times imperious attitude that he knows best as I have with the general preoccupation that the Kirkby site is flawed more by its location than its merits as a stadium.But the fans will resolve this one way or another through our ballot papers....wont we? Haven’t you said so.

So let us alone to make up our own minds and please stop reinforcing that the Tesco option is the best deal in the world. It may well be, but we will work this out without your partisan intervention and regardless of your dismissal of other options -flawed as they may be also.

Perhaps securing a first class striker should have preoccupied the CEO far more and far earlier in the day than 48 hours before the start of the season.

By the way, a ballot really has no meaning unless there is a substantive choice before the voter and we have heard arguments from more than one candidate!
Dave Moorcroft
109   Posted 10/08/2007 at 21:46:25

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Well said Barry,Wyness seems to think he,s talking to 35,000 peices of wood.He doesn,t think we are capable of thinking for ourselves.He is showing signs of desperation by attacking any kind of openhanded offers of talks with anyone about the Biggest issue that will effect over the next 100 years,Probably millions of Evertonians,To just dismiss everyone who wants to only talk about something so important strikes me as though they have already made their minds up.The exclusivity crap which now by his own admission was going on for 18 months was to give them time to get their presentation right.I think it just shows how pathetic this group of people are who Own Everton FC when they have clearly no idea what its like to be a true in your blood Evertonian,They could,nt even present it right.To use the players just when the new season is about to start is nothing short of disgusting.The players are here to concentrate on football and nothing else.I have just watched David Moyes on sky refuse to answer the question (where did the money come from for these late bids for players)It was being kept back to try and persaude people to vote yes should have been his answer.Why wasnt it there acouple of weeks ago when players were saying they wanted to come to us.Anyway lets raise the roof tomorrow,and not a murmur about all this.
robert treacy
110   Posted 10/08/2007 at 23:00:07

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can anyone enlighten me as to when we will know the outcome of the vote
Andy Mac
111   Posted 11/08/2007 at 02:03:22

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http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0400evertonfc/0150kingsdock/tm_headline=city-sites-for-everton-fc-were-rejected-a-year-ago%26method=full%26objectid=19605280%26siteid=50061-name_page.html

An interesting article... Sure goes a long way to back up Wyness.
Paul English
112   Posted 11/08/2007 at 08:52:57

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Ive got a loop to put round Wyness’s neck, its as big as the one in Scotty Rd , its got to be for his moon head ,who is this tosser who knows nothing about the history,roots of the senior great club of our city.
Blue Meanie
113   Posted 11/08/2007 at 09:13:28

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DO NOT let sentimentality get in the way of sensibility. By the way, the rather pathetic ’noose around the neck’ type comments are proviong why so many people are turning away from KEIOC/LCC/Bradley. They are emenating hatred, and an almost absurd childish behaviour. This stems from the fact that they have no finance to back up their ideas, and are desperately clutching at straws.
VIJ
114   Posted 11/08/2007 at 09:30:46

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To all ’no’ voters the situation couldn’t be more straightforward (i) exercise your democratic right and vote ’no’, (ii) exorcise those ungodly demons of delusion ans self (appointed) righteousness...
VIJ
115   Posted 11/08/2007 at 11:47:17

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Oh almost forgot... (iii) go on a collective journey up Rock Hudson’s proverbial back-end
Blue In Bolton
116   Posted 12/08/2007 at 10:46:58

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R.E Robert Carney

Of course i have consistently talked shite, i’ve had the temerity to consistently disagree with you.
Which dungheap would you like me to bury my nose in oh font of all wisdom..?

You are just a Parochial propogandist mate. And every time you post, it becomes glaringly obvious.
spanish billy
117   Posted 12/08/2007 at 11:21:37

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blue in bolton, why dont you support bolton ? My friend now has to meet at his local pub to collect a coach to every home costing him 6 squid for each home game then has to endure a 1hour journey to the game, largly due to traffic congestion. If you were from bolton you would know knobhead.

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