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Outrageous

By Colin  Fitzpatrick :  20/08/2007 :  Comments (115) :
Out of consideration I usually begin my posts with an acknowledgement to the writer I?m responding to, in this case Prof Tom Cannon, but on this occasion I?ll reserve the courtesy. This is perhaps the most transparent and disgraceful piece of propaganda that Everton Football Club have used, perhaps prepared in desperation, in a bid to manipulate the spectators' minds. [The club have asked us to point out that Mr Cannon's open letter, published on Bluekipper, was not put out by Everton FC — Ed] To some, the clarity of thought from a Professor who as a ?special advisor? to the Board will add a certain amount of gravitas and either endorse the instinct followed by many voters or persuade those late voters that this, as an academics appraisal, is honest and candid.

First of all I would hope the Professor could put me in touch with the bank that will offer a £150M at 5.34% interest when the base rate currently stands at 5.75%. Loans involving large amounts such as this are currently obtained between one to two points over base so, specifically, a loan of the size indicated would cost, at 7.25%, £13M pa. Yes, more than is indicated, but all those dazzled by academia just wait for the rest ? and before accountants start to argue about tax effectiveness, just remember that Everton?s current long-term debt liability, a £30M securitization loan, is at 7.79% (costing £2.767M pa).

Second, loans of this magnitude are not subject to fluctuations in the interest rate, the risk is spread to both parties ? look at Arsenal, Newcastle indeed look at Everton?s loan. It?s not like nipping into the NatWest and getting a house mortgage, the insinuation that it is frankly beggars belief. All the aforementioned have fixed-rate loans over a 25-year period, why introduce a topic that has no relevance whatsoever?

If, Prof Cannon, you intend to take matters at face value, then the figure you use for potential debt for Kirkby, provided by Sir Terry Leahy, must be taken with the proverbial pinch of salt. Notwithstanding the indisputable fact that the £35M is a 133% increase on the £15M figure, as the likely amount of debt supplied only two weeks earlier by the Everton CEO Mr Keith Wyness, I find it incomprehensible that you have not questioned the possibility that this potential debt will actually range between £75M and £100M ? unless of course we are having built the cheapest stadium in the history of Premier League football. A loan of this magnitude, £75M at 7.75%, would cost each year £6,876,482 or £8,775,190 for the top figure.

As for your chart, applying some realistic data and not relying on frankly naieve assumptions that a city-centre site would not offer substantially increased benefits when attempting to develop the commercial revenue streams that are available outside of the normal match-day experience (according to experts such as Simon Inglis) is ridiculous. In addition to the inescapable fact that, if Kirkby were to be developed, the contribution from the retail-only site to Everton Football Club would be (and this isn?t an estimate) zero; no hotels or leisure facilities are to be built, according to Mr.Wyness. It doesn?t take a genius to work out why... yet another attempt to distract.

Debt is a fact of modern Premier League clubs, look here at Liverpool. Top Premier League clubs have two fantastic enabling partners, their fan base and their presence in the Premier League. Look at all the top clubs, look at the rest, then tell me, as the 21st richest club in the world, why we?re adopting the commercial tactics of, with respect, Bolton, Portsmouth and the rest?

You, Prof Cannon, are either incredibly ignorant of your subject matter or you believe that the supporters of Everton Football Club are incredibly stupid and will believe whatever is wheeled out in front of them. I can assure both you and certain members of the club that the supporters are not as stupid as you think. No wonder Mr Kenwright has remained almost silent throughout the ballot period.

I have found the actions of the club in the past week to be disgraceful. I?m at a loss to explain why the club should adopt these tactics as my gut feeling tells me that, whilst far from being a massive vote of confidence, the Yes vote will prevail as most voters have only heard a monologue from the club and the local press.

I?ll be glad when the vote is over; I?m frankly sick and tired of it now.

Colin Fitzpatrick, a very disappointed Evertonian

Reader Comments

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Seamus Murphy
1   Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:34:24

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Excellent response Colin - spot on.
Neil Alecock
2   Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:21:40

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As a wavering voter on this subject I particularly welcomed Prof Cannon’s input. Ever since KEOIC put forward their idea of a redeveloped Goodison, my thoughts have been ’great but who’s paying?’ Also having looked at the ’loop’ and weighed up the size and some of the frankly daft proposals eg. ’build over the road like in Monte Carlo’ I have begun to look more and more at Kirkby as the best option. KEIOC have put up a commendable campaign and have used their own propoganda to get the message across including a plane over Goodison airspace! I haven’t heard Colin complain about that, but if the board had hired that plane what would you say then Colin?
In fairness to Everton I have actually heard alot more anti Kirkby messages on the web and in the local press.
I want to hear Prof Cannon’s views, indeed you are right Colin I am not stupid and if I thought that the Profs letter was rubbish then it would not influence me one bit. I use as much information both for and against before I make my mind up, and your complaint about the disgracful Everton and Prof Cannon is frankly disgraceful.
Smiffy
3   Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:36:23

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Well done Colin, excellent article. My thoughts exactly.
Chris Davies
4   Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:42:00

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The fact is Colin what he says makes far more sense to me than what you said. I just you luddites don’t get what you want, or it will be the death of this club of ours!
Gavin Wadeson
5   Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:40:18

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If you look at the situation logically, the reason why the Board want to relocate to Kirby is because it?ll make more money than any of the other alternative locations.

The Board wouldn?t want to move to Kirby if one of the alternative locations would make them more money. This is not conjecture, it is pure common sense!

The more money the Board make, the more money they have to spend on players.

If you want the Board to have more money to spend on players, vote "Yes". If you want the Board to have less money to spend on players, vote "No".

When you disregard all of the ?statistics? and propaganda (from both sides!) , and think about it logically, that?s what it ultimately comes down to.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
6   Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:53:24

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Gavin: "Kirby (sic) ... will make more money than any of the other alternative locations"

For whom? The Board of directors and Tesco? You can?t surely be talking about Everton FC because if, as we?ve been told, a similar package is on the table at Scotland then surely the club stands to make more from an inner-city site that's closer to the current stadium, the core support, the central business district and all the transport infrastructure that comes with it?

Kirkby is a last resort for Everton FC after two decades of mis-management and under-investment. For the current custodians and all the connected interests, it's potentially their big meal ticket and every underhanded tactic they have used since the ballot began to debase the initial gesture of holding a vote overseen by the ERS would seem to confirm that they'll do whatever it takes to make sure it happens.

Frankly, I've been sickened by the whole sordid mess.

John
7   Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:30:32

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Colin i have to ask you: do you really think that the Club don´t know what they are doing? Don´t you think it´s strange that everyboady in the team, the coach, the manager and the hole staff is "YES" voters for the Kirby deal if the Kirby deal would be so stupid?

Of course Evertonfc are looking for what is best for the club. And only to remind you, the Kirby stadium will only be 3,5 miles away from Goodison Park, we are not talking about move´ing the stadium to Manchester or something. People are thinking to much about this boundery lines. We are only talking about move´ing the STADIUM just outside of the city boundery, but the Senior team will still practice in the city in the same place with all the youngsters and the reserver team in the new training facility in Finch Lane Knowsley. So we are not going to move´ing everyting to Kirby only the stadium.

Everton is not a rich club, and we don´t have someone like Roman Abramovic that can buy everything for us.

In my mind the Kirby deal is the only deal that we can afford, because this deal is just way to good to say no to.

And Colin you were also asking why suddenly the cost for the stadium will be £35M not the £15M that Bil was saying. It is because we will first build 55,000 seat stadium, that would cost us the £15M and if we want we can make it even bigger for 70,000 seat(i think) than it would cost us the £35M that Cannon was talking about.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
8   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:11:52

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John, everybody in the whole team? Really? So Victor Anichebe linking to KEIOC on his MySpace page was a show of support for Kirkby? And the actual transcript of an Alan Stubbs interview for EvertonTV reveals a far more conflicted man than the sanitised quotes used in print on the official site.

And I?m not going to put words in David Moyes?s mouth (or his head?!) but while he says that a new stadium is a must for Everton nowhere does he actually mention Kirkby. [Update: I stand corrected on that one (see below)]

We?ve heard categorically from four players: Cahill, Stubbs, Carsley and Arteta. If others have confirmed their support for Kirkby elsewhere, I?ve missed it but it certainly is not the whole team.

Oh, and the Kirkby site is 5.3 miles via the most direct route by road.

Gavin
9   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:10:45

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Lyndon: Kirby will make money for the people who buy the players for Everton FC. The more money they make, the more money they will have to spend on players.

If an inner-city site would make them more money, why would they want to move to Kirby?
andymac
10   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:11:13

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Colin, I have gone on record as stating that I do not believe that the Loop site stacks up, or even has the potential to stack up, economically, ergonomically, from a construction and design viewpoint (unless someone was prepared to throw £"gazillians" at it) or from a Safety regulation viewpoint. Various other contributors from their own professional standpoints have expressed the same views. I won’t attempt to convince you that "We are Right" and "You are Wrong". However, I really take umbrage at the tone of your article, and the tone of many of the contributors who espouse the "no" vote. Anyone who presents an argument that you favour is seemingly "stating the obvious". Anyone who gives an opinion that is contrary to your own, including representatives of EFC, Tesco, or individuals not remotley connected with the Club, are merely peddling "propaganda". Thank heavens the vote is nearly over, and we can move on. Or do I already detect the rumblings of yet another "no vote" attempt at disruption and anarchy, if the democratic vote goes against them - i.e. "We shouldn’t trust the Electoral Reform Services. They’re all probably in Tesco’s pockets". Really...
Mo
11   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:07:19

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Im sick of all this talk. In fact it is doing my fucking tits in!! I just wanna see Everton great again, I dont fucking care what it involves. I understand both sides of the argument but I am sick of it all, this site in particular has encouraged my nausea with all the enthusiastic rants. I know you are all ’fighting a cause’, but i just wanna go to the game and see my team kick fuckin arse. If kirby means we gonna kick more and bigger arses sooner rather than later, then lets do it for God’s sake.


From a blue in desperate need of some living-memory based glory aside of the ’95 FA cup
Bluebyu
12   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:16:17

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Spot on Colin Evertonians are not stupid and are capable of working it out for themselves.Just wait for the result and the highest number of votes Yes/No cast by non stupid Evertonians will determine our future.Simple isnt it
wayne hughes
13   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:27:48

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I was at that meeting Tom Cannon is telling a whopper as he wasn’t elected as anything, as for his figures pure fantasy more porkies from a blatant self-publicist.
John Charles
14   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:41:23

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Lyndon - thats the problem though isnt it. A similar package is not on the table at Scotty Road is it? Whats on the table is a crappy photo shopped image of what apears to be a stadium and a plan of "look it will fit and maybe a hotel".


Colin: if our debt at Kirkby went up to 75m-100m that would be because of market conditions (construction costs etc), therefore you’d add the same sum on top of the cost at the Loop as well, so your argument is completely and utter flawed.

You also fail to mention the Loop has far far greater chance of running over budget than Kirkby does.

I don’t think anyone is debating the Loop would be better - it would, but there is no business plan or package on the table.
alex
15   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:49:54

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i thought it was a very interesting article. in honesty it was a slightly transparent attempt of propaganda. but im still a yes.
KJ
16   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:51:37

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John,
A simliar package is indeed on the table for the loop scheme. In fact the financial package is remarkable similiar with Everton contrubuting £50 million to the stadium costs. Clearly though the scheme is some 17 months behind kirkby so I wouldn’t expect the same amount of detail yet!
dgf
17   Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:39:51

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Colin not sure where you got Prof Cannon’s interest rate claim from as I have looked at the article numerous times and can’t find it. Maybe you could explain it to me or have you just picked this out of the sky as another bit of no propaganda.
Last week you had the cheek to claim I showed you a lack of courtesy with one of my responses. Well lets just say you have shown your true colours now. For somebody who is sick of the whole business you certainly have put into your no campaign rather a lot of time. Or are you just sick of it because you know you have failed?
I don’t know who you are or what your occupation is but I find it hard to believe that you are more experienced in business and finance than Leahy or the Prof but you seem quite content to dismiss everything they say. I find this even harder to explain after your own financial report last week which had such huge gaping errors in it.
I would clearly love to see some evidence that will support that a city centre stadium would make more money than an out of town stadium personally I have major doubts. suspicions.
I think some of the no campaign has been ran very well and some has been rather impressive if not somewhat optimistic. I think your latest effort is just desperation and a little bit offensive.
Ste Boileau
18   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:04:18

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Great Article.
Some of the naive comments on here are making me weep into my tea.
If people cant see that a City Centre site can make more money than an out of town industrial estate then I truly despair.
And for the umpteenth time, dont slate the loop for lack of proposals, financial analysis etc when your happy to back Kirkby which has no real financial analysis, firm figures,plans etc.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
19   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:17:20

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John Charles: ’Whats on the table is a crappy photo shopped image of what apears (sic) to be a stadium and a plan of "look it will fit and maybe a hotel".’

Crappy Photoshopped image? It’s amazing that as well all the architects that are coming out of the woodwork saying that the loop is a non-starter because it’s too small, we have all these graphic designers mocking the stadium images as "crayon drawings" or crappy images I could have done in five minutes in Paint.

Bollocks. And that goes for both sides. The Kirkby images were not knocked up in five minutes and nor were Trevor Skempton’s initial renderings. Indeed, Trevor’s side-view rendering (by a professional architect, let’s not forget) are of the same type as those unveiled by Liverpool for their new ground.

And both his overhead rendering and 3/4 view sketch are just concept drawings to show what is envisaged. They’re not the all-singing, comprehensive CAD renderings that we should have seen from the club by now for Kirkby.
Dave Roberts
20   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:04:14

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Tom Cannon makes the point that Bestway are a very small Company compared to Tesco and that in his view they could in no way match the intended investment from Tesco’s bigger purse. />
Any attempt to shoehorn a new Stadium onto the Loop site will require a vast amount of additional investment in major engineering, which would be sizeable projects on their own, such as bridges, vehicle access roads and oversailing structures on stilts. All of which are extremely expensive, most of which are not required at Kirkby, and those that are required are a part of the deal.All this for a stadium capacity at the Loop of 50,000 with no prospects of future expansion.

Can anybody tell me how a comparitively small company like Bestway can match Tesco’s investment, never mind the additional costs of what would be required at the Loop? And given all these additional costs (which will fall to the Club) why restrict ourselves to a once and for all stadium of 50,000 capacity? Even if it were ’possible’ in ALL respects (which I doubt)it doesn’t seem a very good deal to me!
John Aldridge
21   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:28:45

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I really cannot see what all the fuss is about over the Kirkby site.

We need a new stadium. Period. The site in Kirkby has been in planning for quite some time with KBC, Tesco and the developers. Everton came out, told us how much the stadium will cost, how much Tesco are forking out and how much discount we are getting from Tesco’s developers.

The "Loop" site is a last minute, desperate attempt by LCC to put a spanner in the works. LCC had plenty of time to offer viable alternatives (not that the loop site seems at all viable to me) over the years and they never once came up with anything like the loop site.

And on the subject of Bestway - who on earth are Bestway? If a company is only making £73M net profit a year (check their website), how can they possibly hope to offer us the package that Tesco are offering (profits in the region of £2BN net).

All the talk from certain fans of boycotting the new ground if it’s built in Kirkby is quite frankly shameful. I will support the Blues no matter where they play - it’s the team, not the ground, that matters.

I’m not trying to tread on anyone’s toes here - just my opinion and adding my voice to the debate.
dgf
22   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:34:31

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Could I suggest that everybody who thinks that rebuilding roads is cheap and easy have a look at this webpage and have a think how much rebuilding roads around the loop might cost.


www.roadblock.org.uk/costs.htm

Scary isn’t it?
End of story forget the loop.
Dave Roberts
23   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:45:26

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Is that...THE... John Aldrige??!!
Ged
24   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:40:28

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Im gutted.

I was going to vote yes because a fella who is a Professor (he must be dead clever then)told me what to say. You see we’re all sheep and are incapable of forming our own opinions.

This issue is getting boring now, just vote yes or now. Whatever you think is best, simple.

I googled ’Kenwright and grassy knoll’ and found no connection.

flies aeroplane across screen*
Gerard Madden
25   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:42:29

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I find a couple of things ’outrageous’ apart from this ridiculous article.

1)Why is the latest Toffeeweb poll conveniently down - the last time I was able to view it more than 50% of blues were quite happy that a 50.01%+ majority would be enough to move, with smaller percentages for 60%+, 70%+ etc.

2)A non-story suddenly placed as the lead ’news’ item today, despite no links to its source and no quotes - just a couple of paragraphs.

3)
Dave Roberts
26   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:54:27

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Gerard,

I noticed that too. I would have liked to have read the rest of your points but it stopped at No. 2!
Cliff McQueen
27   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:23:01

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As an exiled Evertonian whose interest is primarily in the team rather than the stadium, I have followed the ?yes/no? argument with some bafflement. I understand the emotions but not the economics. I agree that Kirkby will probably cost more than the current estimate ( they all do ). But I am utterly convinced that it will be cheaper than any alternative.

I find it astonishing that we have been offered the advice and support of one England’s foremost businessmen and the "no" campaigners reject it totally. Presumably an American / Russian / Thai carpetbagger would be more welcome.
Meanwhile the judgement and the motives of the Board are dismissed out of hand. I can see no justification for this other than dog-in-the-manger-ignorance. If the Board are not fit to manage this issue then they are not fit to run the club. It?s as simple as that.

It is true that Liverpool Council?s attitude towards the club is shameful. The blatant bias towards Liverpool FC and willingness to allow them to build on scarce green space in the City is unbelievable. The lack of outrage in the rest of the City is symptomatic of a city that doesn?t give a shit.

On balance Kirkby is not the King?s Dock and never will be - but it is Everton?s best shot at a debt-free, modern and successful future. With a new stadium we can be a real force in the Premiership or we can wage civil war in the Championship. I think it?s time for a reality check.
Gary Crumley
28   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:55:33

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Professor Tom Cannon was the shareholder who led the rebellion against Kenwright and proposed the motion at the EGM in 2004.
For those not fortunate enough to be there on the night it was classic comedy. As soon as Cannon realised that Kenwright’s speech had pacified the audience he then stood up doing a total U turn to support the board.
Cannon has never been afraid to promote himself and continues to tout himself as the fans representative on the board - heaven help us all!
Danny Mullally
29   Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:41:05

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Colin,

I am 100% in agreement with your post, and it is truly commendable the way you have invested your time and effort to portray the views of many Evertonians, myself included. In my view it is ironic that these blatant propaganda press releases may do the Kirkby vote the most damage, as the whole campaign has stunk from the start. I have to say the only assessment that I have struggled to disagree with on the "yes" side is Leahy’s letter. But look at the resources that the "yes" camp has invested in making this whole campaign unjust and unfair. Kenwright is someone who I have a lot of time for, he never had to offer us fans the vote but he did. What I detest is the way Wyness has acted since the proposed Kirkby move has been released into the public domain. Surely his position should be reviewed after this ballot is concluded as he has alienated me and many other fellow blues.
It is rally late in the day to go over all this mess again, but look already at what this ground move has done to the fans. Total division, and is that really what is in the best interests of the club? Something of this magnitude should not be taken lightly, when the result of the vote comes out, it will be interesting to see how divided we actually are. Because once the divison is apparent this thing will only get more problematic.
Surely the best way forward is to unify the fans....and Kirkby will never do that.
Dave Roberts
30   Posted 20/08/2007 at 20:02:56

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Cliff,

Sometimes those of us who have been arguing the toss over this damned Stadium issue for months get so bogged down with what we perceive as relevant detail that we don’t always make our point very well.

Then along comes somebody like yourself whose name I have never seen on the site before (but I’m not suggesting you’ve never posted before!) and hits the nail right on the head. Well done mate.
dgf
31   Posted 20/08/2007 at 20:16:02

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I agree Cliff well written and balanced. Well done.
What a pity you did not submit it as an article so we have alternative lead articles to read than the complete bollocks written by Colin
Gerard Madden
32   Posted 20/08/2007 at 20:27:24

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Dave - glad you noticed it too. Well? Any Toffeeweb glitterati prepared to explain about the poll - oh I know it was a ’technical fault’ :lol:

Once again (with a slight ammendment);

I find a couple of things ?outrageous? apart from this ridiculous article.

1)Why is the latest Toffeeweb poll conveniently down - the last time I was able to view it more than 50% of blues were quite happy that a 50.01%+ majority would be enough to move, with smaller percentages for 60%+, 70%+, 80%+ etc.

2)A non-story suddenly placed as the lead ?news? item today, despite no links to its source and no quotes - just a couple of paragraphs probably written by a desperate no’er on the Toffeeweb site with there being no major anti-Kirkby news story of substance today.
tony gee
33   Posted 20/08/2007 at 20:18:00

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this decision we are all in the process of making, will affect all evertonians for the next 100 years or more...

lets not vote to go to a tin shed in a barren land on a false promise of more cash being available for foreign superflops..

lets have a stadium within the city that we can be proud of when our grandchildren frequent it..

it doesn’t matter if this decision takes another 5 years, as long as we get it right.. and anybody who says 5 years is too long a time to go without proper money for buying superstars etc, was obviously not at the match on saturday when a team worth barely 10million parked up our team of superstars...

no to kirky
Cormac Murphy
34   Posted 20/08/2007 at 20:14:46

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I would like Everton to remain at Goodison. From what I have read, the reason for the move is that we are not generating enough income from the corporate boxes, so we need to expand to allow more suits in. I propose 3 solutions.
1. Buy off a couple of the adjacents streets and expand the stadium.
2. Add another upper tier to the stands that would also increase the capacity.
3. Dig a huge hole and sink the pitch, which would enable a lower tier to be added.

Wouldn’t that really piss-off the RS just being across the road from their new ground!
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
35   Posted 20/08/2007 at 20:27:05

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Cliff, the "advice and support of one England?s foremost businessmen" was not rejected totally, at least not by this site. It has, however, been viewed, quite sensibly, in the context of a CEO looking to secure a £400m retail development that will net his company an estimated £1m a week. That is some vested interest in the outcome of a scheme that will benefit Everton FC but will arguably benefit Tesco more.

And, yes, the Kirkby option may be cheaper than any other alternative but "cheap" may yet prove to be the watchword here. Cheap in price, cheap in materials, cheap in design but potentially expensive in terms of loss of character, loss of tradition and eventual loss of support.

If the numbers stacked up, if the arguments weren’t based on vague attendance projections and spurious catchment areas, and if the alternatives put forward by LCC had been given more consideration than half-baked hatchet-jobs by "experts" employed on the Kirkby Project then perhaps the club and its subsequent defence of Kirkby wouldn’t have been regarded with quite so much scepticism and distrust.

Mac
36   Posted 20/08/2007 at 20:56:27

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Tom Cannon makes the point that Bestway are a very small Company compared to Tesco and that in his view they could in no way match the intended investment from Tesco?s bigger purse. />
Any attempt to shoehorn a new Stadium onto the Loop site will require a vast amount of additional investment in major engineering, which would be sizeable projects on their own, such as bridges, vehicle access roads and oversailing structures on stilts. All of which are extremely expensive, most of which are not required at Kirkby, and those that are required are a part of the deal.All this for a stadium capacity at the Loop of 50,000 with no prospects of future expansion.

Can anybody tell me how a comparitively small company like Bestway can match Tesco?s investment, never mind the additional costs of what would be required at the Loop? And given all these additional costs (which will fall to the Club) why restrict ourselves to a once and for all stadium of 50,000 capacity? Even if it were ?possible? in ALL respects (which I doubt)it doesn?t seem a very good deal to me!


ANY company is small comapred to tesco. what your really implying is that no one can do business in a world where we have a superpower like tesco. Look tesco will have a budget which they wont go over either. Never match tescos investment>? Bestway own a bank. period. hmmmm i think you need to do some real research on bestway group before making your comments
Dave C
37   Posted 20/08/2007 at 20:00:00

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couldnt agree more Colin. unfortunately, me old China plate, your pissing against the wind

It sickens me when someone like yourself put so much time and effort into expressing your views and to question issues that are screaming out to be questioned, only for the same old names to respond with their illconsidered, repeatedly, negative reponses

I’m all for a reasoned yes argument, but comments like . . . .I dont "believe " the loop stacks up
"Even if it were possible which I "doubt" it doesnt "seem" like a good deal to me"
"I just you luddites "
Must make you realise your reasoned logical approach is wasted, these guys have closed minds,they dont want alternatives, thats why they arent prepared to listen to any

J Aldridege commented that he feels talk of Evertonians boycotting Kirkby is shameful, I understand Johns sentiments but John needs also to understand, that some staunch life long blues feel that by moving to Kirkby, its actually the club thats doing the boycotting, that if theres is a betrayal it will commited by the club and the yes voters

without the initial "crime" there will be no reaction

colin.fitz
38   Posted 20/08/2007 at 21:20:44

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just to answer a few questions, dgf as normal you’re just taking info at face value, if you work out the payment on the loan it comes to the interest rate that I’ve explained, I did this over coffee, doesn’t take much to blow a hole in this, the boards and Tesco’s whole sad saga. roll on friday when the majority of Evertonians can stop being played for idiots.
If we had a decent board we’d be following them not attempting to lead them.
ron.leith
39   Posted 20/08/2007 at 21:32:32

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The city boundary freaks who prefer to see EFC languishing in the land of if only’s need to get real. Please lets not miss every opportunity that presents itself on a silver platter and be oh so cynical all the time.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
40   Posted 20/08/2007 at 21:09:16

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Gerard: "Well? Any Toffeeweb glitterati prepared to explain about the poll - oh I know it was a ?technical fault? :lol:"

Umm, yes, as it happens. We were going to modify the question slightly because of the ambiguous way in which it could be read and in doing so, encountered an error that I was not able to immediately fix. I still haven?t had time to sit down and work it out, choosing instead to step away from this agonising stadium issue, watch the Blues this past weekend and spend some overdue time with my family.

"A non-story suddenly placed as the lead ?news? item today, despite no links to its source and no quotes - just a couple of paragraphs probably written by a desperate no?er on the Toffeeweb site with there being no major anti-Kirkby news story of substance today."

Yeah, I just made it up and put words in Malcolm Carter?s mouth, because that?s what we do around here. Grow up, will you? The voting period is almost over, there?s no more time to persuade people either way (I fully expect the club to be waving their mandate in the air by the end of the week) so what would be the point in using a "non-story" to that end?
Barry Bragg
41   Posted 20/08/2007 at 21:30:50

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Colin after the article you serbed up last week with it’s disgraceful financial misrepresentations I have yet seen in this whole debate I would respectfully urge you to shut up and sit down. How you have got the brass nerve to criticise anybody elses edit after the sham you tried to pass off last week leaves me absolutely GOB SMACKED!

Thankfully I believe most sensible Evertonians will see through the bullshit dished up by both sides and vote accordingly reaching the correct decision.
dgf
42   Posted 20/08/2007 at 21:47:05

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Colin but we will not be borrowing £150 million pounds. Hence the interest rate you stated is incorrect.
Maybe I am being optimistic I suspect we will have more debt then 15-35 mill but 150!!
Or am I missing something again.
The one thing I would agree with was if we had a decent board. If they had true faith in this move they would never have put this to a vote and created all this ridiculous friction.
Dave Roberts
43   Posted 20/08/2007 at 21:56:29

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Who added their little bit to my post above...unsigned! I don’t mind a good tiff if somebody fancies one and I’ll take the rough with the smooth but I would hope to know who I am ’tiffing’ with.

So Bestway own a Bank do they? So do I, it’s called the Co-Op. Whichever bank this is it can’t be much given Bestway’s profit level and turnover! As I said in a post before the weekend, these straws are getting shorter, shorter and shorter.....By the way, what’s the name of the bank? Maybe we can all google it.
dgf
44   Posted 20/08/2007 at 22:25:13

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its called the united bank and bestway own about 50% of it.
apparently it is the third biggest bank in Pakistan but you could hardly call it a world player.
Steve B
45   Posted 20/08/2007 at 22:42:29

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Most if not all of eligible voters will have cast their votes by now so what the point is now of these interminable, navel-gazing discussions now is beyond me. Let’s wait for the results please as this debate has made reading Toffeeweb each night really depressing.
Ged
46   Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:07:30

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Agreed.

And lets turn our focus to the pressing matter of how Wyness was involved in the Wall Street Crash and how Kenwright and Global Warming are directly linked.

For Roswell, read Muller.
John Charles
47   Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:10:22

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KJ: "A similar package is on the table from the loop"


is it?! who said. THE Toffeeweb front page doesnt even have a link to a story, just a paragraph. Its a farce.

Its 18 months behind thats why? The Loop wasnt even put to Everton.

Whats the point in argueing I dont know. I’d sooner watch Everton on scotty road, but its hocus pocus.

Let me predict, if we vote NO then the Loop study will show it cant be funded. and if we vote yes they wont put any detail out, rather they’ll have an excuse come election time.

total bollocks from LCC - politcians.

If its that deliverable where are the basic facts, basic plan, wy arent they convincing people like me?? all they want us to do is vote no then they MIGHT tell us it will be possible or they might not. fuck that, id sooner vote yes and make them work even harder, after all, if they come up with a similar deal to kirkby EFC would go to scotty road anyway wouldnt they? if its a similar deal then why wouldnt they chose liverpool instead? what possibl have they to gain from kirkby if its the same deal in liverpool?

so my point is: if the loop exists we’ll go there anyway.
Sandy Brown
48   Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:17:37

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John Charles

Your suggestion that if the Loop actually exists we’ll go there anyway, is pursuasive but doesn’t convince me.

The board have made it crystal clear just how committed they are to the Kirkby route; you only have to read the endless press releases glorifying it and rubbishing the alternatives. If they get a Yes, they’ll effectively close any doors to rival stadium projects that might delay or disrupt the Kirkby plan. There’s no way Bestway are going to continue pumping money into feasibility studies, architectural design or engineering planning if they think there is no chance of getting a fair hearing from Everton - why would they?

Vote Yes, the Loop studies grind to a halt. We’ll never know what could have been.
Caveman
49   Posted 20/08/2007 at 22:59:59

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Who the f**k are we?

Wimbledon AFC, I have just read all the posts and I am staggered and frightened by the squabbling.


I am involved first hand in stadium building, I will not say directly with whom, however we are the only ones that got out of Wembley without being made bankrupt.

And I have never heard so much bo**ocks being discussed. Basically it is money, money and money. The Loop as so many experts have professed is a non starter. not big enough, not big enough real estate, i.e. it does not have the required circulation or evacuation routes to get a licence for anything other than a Championship side. SO lets try and relocate Tranmere there because that is as big as it gets.

Goodison, as many have said will not get its licences renewed for anything above 40,000 in two years time, unless you have an alternative lined up.

Believe me my heart is at Goodison, but please, please stop this crap KEIOC, you are a bunch of amateurs and you are starting to embarass yourselves and the rest of us true Evertonians with your lack of knowledge.

The club needs to move on. We are on the verge of Europe and a great season if Davy’s potential signings are to be believed but you are just poisoning and distracting from that, now is the time to get behind the team, not bitch about where we are playing.

A lifelong supporter, (over 40 years)
Steve Pugh
50   Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:18:50

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Profits from the united bank last year were roughly £120m. Profits from the cement side of the business was £14m, they make £8m in rental profits from their property portfolio and in excess of £50m from the Cash & Carry. Not counting their other interests. So where does the good proffessor get his £73m total profit for the whole Bestway group.

I admit they aren’t as big as Tesco but they are bigger than the board are trying to make us believe and they could afford to invest exactly the same as Tesco.

And they can get cement at cost too.
mick kesler
51   Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:05:03

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PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT VOTE TO MOVE TO KIRKBY, IT WILL BE THE END OF OUR CLUB STAY WITH GOODISON AND FIGHT FOR A STADIUM WE ALL WANT, NOT SOME PILE OF SHITE THAT TESCO’S WANT TO PALM US OFF WITH,VOTE WITH YOUR HEARTS THATS WHAT BEING A TOFFEE IS ALL ABOUT
Sandy Brown
52   Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:27:29

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Christ, we’ve got an amazing lot of talent on here; everyone claims to be either an architect, business consultant, accountant or a lawyer, and now we’ve got the fella who built Wembley!

Let’s design, finance and build the fucking stadium ourselves, eh?
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
53   Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:20:35

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John Charles, Gerard Madden: Are you happy now? We didn’t supply quotes because we didn’t have them at the time but I hope this proves that we are not trying to mislead anyone or make stuff up. We want the best for Everton FC and we want to make sure that all avenues have been exhausted before we gamble our future in Kirkby.

Bestway have said that they can offer a similar funding package to that which is on offer from Tesco (i.e. £50m input from Everton). LCC have said that they will provide the land, similar to what is on offer from Knowsley. Unlike Kirkby, it would be a regeneration project and would therefore qualify for RDA funding. HOK and WSP both say it’s possible to build a stadium up to 55,000 seats on that site.

Nothing concrete can come from this until Everton end the exclusivity period and sit down with Bestway and LCC to talk this through. What does the club — the club now, not the individuals concerned — stand to lose, particularly if, as most now suspect, the vote comes back yes this week?
colin fitz
54   Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:11:28

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dgf, you clearly can’t follow what tom cannon is saying so I think we’ll leave that one there,as perhaps should Billy Bragg(!)who fails to comprehend that the figures I used in my previous article are the figures supplied by the very people he holds in such high esteem, you know them they’re the ones who’ve sold all the club’s asset’s off in recent years. Finally, to those who think I’ve conducted some kind of personal attack on tom cannon all I can offer is that I don’t suffer fools lightly and anyone producing utter garbage like that deserves every criticism levied.
John Charles
55   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:00:55

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Lyndon thats more bollocks mate and I am not happy.

We can build a fooking spaceship 125,000 seater suspended by laser beams above goodison if we want. I’m sure if we got nasa involved it would be possible..it would only cost 4 trillion quid.

My point is how is it funded. Why and how do they get over a red flag from either project jennifer or liverpool 1/grosvenor?

Even if they do get over those two, who is the tennet of the retail? It cant be a shoppnig center as there is no demand with retailers committed to liverpool 1. So what is it? the site is only 10 acres isnt it? So how do they fit a stadium and houses/property to pay for it on that?

also, how do they address the fact that building costs are going up and up, so if they need "18 months to study" how do they factor in the increased cost of building??

Total bollocks. Publish a report saying "here it is, here is how" or shut up about it. It smacks of LCC trying to make a excuse for after the event.

Like I said, if its really that good a deal at the loop then if we vote yes the board will go to the Loop anyway... we’re voting to continue discussions with tesco. Why would Kenright say yes to Kirkby over the Loop if its the same net result for us?? why?? someone tell me whats in it for him?
John Charles
56   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:16:10

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Sandy:

You might be right, but if you vote No then Kirkby is off the table and then whats next when the loop comes back as a no?

its all bollocks this whole thing.

LCC’s fault. They should have come up with the Loop 3 years ago or say "sorry we cant do it nor fund it like kirkby".

all bollocks the whole thing.
robert carney
57   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:08:33

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Colin;

Once again, with facts you shoot the boards comments to pieces.

The blind yes brigade have failed to stick to facts.

Why you bother answering the likes of dgf I do not know. The man will take anything the club says and swallow it like a porn star.

Come friday when it is closed and no doubt Bill and Bully get there rewards(it will still stink) he will go and find somwhere else to stick his brown nose.
dgf
58   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:19:07

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Colin you continue to state incorrect figures and pick and choose which bits you wish include in your latest propaganda.
There are mistakes lack of detail understanding in finance coming from the club.
However there is equally large amounts of errors and misleading statements in your own work.

Your first presentation is not forgotten and anything you have produced since has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
59   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:23:33

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Christ, John. You post enough on this issue to have led me to believe you?ve been following along.
  1. The proposed development is commercial/residential not retail. There is no threat to Liverpool 1 and Grosvenor have not at any stage said they would oppose it. Likewise St Modwens and Project Jennifer, no opposition has been raised and the Everton Development Trust have practically screamed "please build the stadium in our ward!"
  2. The 10-acre is only for the stadium. The rest of the development will be on land to the south and east of the loop.
  3. The project would be funded the same way as Kirkby ? through an enabling development, only this one will be regeneration and would therefore likely qualify for grants
First it?s LCC trying to derail the Kirkby vote, now it?s LCC making excuses after the event. How many reports conducted at great expense to Bestway , the willing schlubs in your grand conspiracy, have to be produced to convince you that this isn?t "bollocks" and that it could be a viable alternative to Kirkby?
John Charles
60   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:36:06

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When was that released? I havent read that, did I miss a report??

If they publish one of these reports I’ll believe it. How do I read this myself?

’could be a viable alternate’
..so if we vote no to kirky net reult kirkby down pan and Loop COULD exist.

if we vote yes to kirkby , kirkby remains option and loop COULD exist.

Why cant bestway publish this 18 page report... I want to read it as to be honest I still dont believe it. I’d like to of course.. I just dont seehow kenwright gains over moving to kirky over liverpool for the same cost.
colin.fitz
61   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:35:30

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dgf, you epitomize the reason behind my view that the general fan should not have been given a vote, you can’t absorb what is being said and embarrassingly attempt to pick holes in logical extrapolation, lets just agree to differ and both watch what happens in the future. If this club was led from the front instead of apparently being led from the rear we’d all be debating where our new players are!
ryan crest
62   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:14:37

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Colin - you’re talking out of your hat mate.

UK Corporate yield curves are currently inverted - it’s cheaper to borrow long term than short, so a mortgage secured on a stadium could be financed for a lot LESS than the short term BOE rate that you quote. You need to have a word with your broker.

And a ’point’, as you put it, does not equate to one percent it is 0.01 percent and secured corporate deals of this type are usually financed at a spread of +50bp from the base.

PS - why is Prof Cannon’s opinion ’transparent propaganda’ and a ’disgrace’? Doesn’t he have the same right to express his opinion as you?
Andy H
63   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:43:26

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Forget all this stadium nonsense, why don’t you all come round to mine, crack open a few cans and chill.
Tom Collie
64   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:56:47

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Well Colin you’ve certainly got the Bullshit Billy spin machine going at maximum revs.

Judging from the number of crazy pseudonyms around tonight they’re hard at work.

Love to check the IP addresses of them all ;-)
colin.fitz
65   Posted 21/08/2007 at 00:58:20

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ryan, you need to look at how football stadia are financed around the UK and what the best rates available are being obtained, in the real world, by Arsenal, Liverpool, Man utd to name but three. I agree that everyone has the right to express their opinion but this article exposes the man for what he is.
colin.fitz
66   Posted 21/08/2007 at 01:26:23

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Oh and one other thing,RYAN, I was clearly talking about percentage points, as does the bank of england, sorry boe, as seen here http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/news/2007/081.htm for your education. you people really are the limit,lets just ignore the fact that just about every figure in Tom Cannon’s article is wrong and totally misleading.
Dave Moorcroft
67   Posted 21/08/2007 at 02:20:56

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The way the club and Tescos are telling us it going to cost fuck all in comparison to other stadia i think we could be looking at a future fucking Heysel,(cheap materials you only get what you pay for in the real world),
Joey
68   Posted 21/08/2007 at 06:45:42

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Robert carney

nail on the head stuff mate

Sandy

you just talked me down, I swear as I read this stuff I was about to jump, your post was laff out loud standard
Neil Pearse
69   Posted 21/08/2007 at 07:22:30

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From the KEIOC page on the Loop (not my words): "The report concludes that a 55,000 stadium can be constructed on the site and in order to make it viable it would be necessary to obtain approval to build over the tunnel approach road and acquire land in order to achieve pedestrian and vehicle access and circulation".

Now, this would (a) take a lot of time to do, and (b) be VERY expensive. Anyone who thinks that this could be done as cheaply as building on a huge unencumbered site as in Kirkby is clearly wrong.

The Loop, if it is doable at all (which we still have reason to doubt), would probably take at least a couple of years longer and be twice as expensive as Kirkby.

By the way, Lyndon, where’s the links to Bestway saying they will offer the same package as Tesco (for this very expensive stadium?), and LCC saying they will give us the land? Are Bestway going to get us a discount like Tesco on the construction costs too? (Or maybe they are actually not in Tesco’s league when in comes to that kind of thing. Just a thought.)
Blue Chris
70   Posted 21/08/2007 at 08:10:11

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I am now just wishing the whole vote thing was over, as it will put us out of our misery. I am afraid the vote will be yes to Kirkby, mainly because, and this is not every ones view, people are afraid that Kirkby is the only option, end of conversation.

A few points which rile me every time i read peoples posts:-
1) People saying F**K LCC they have done nothing for us, did they not offer us the Kings Dock for a pittance? Why should they keep bending over backwards wasting time and money for an ungratefull skint showers of twats that run our football club. People who want to turn their backs on LCC should have a think about the phrase "cut your nose off to spite your face".
2) The argument that TESCO have more money than Bestway. Whether or not the Bestway scheme works remains to be seen. But i can guarantee you one thing TESCO Are in it for them selves not Everton FC. You do not become the biggest business the UK has ever seen with out being ruthless and cut throat. An argument can be leveled at Bestway as well, i dont think anyone understands their motives for providing a site to Everton, maybe some deal with the council allowing them to relocate.
3) If there was an alternative solution within the city on the table, would Kirkby even attract 5% or the Votes? You know and i know it would not. So how can it be right?
4) The sad fact is, and people can dress this up as much as they like, City centre sites are more expensive. This is quite simply because they create more revenue, while that attracts more risk during construction, once the thing is up, it means a larger amount of income year on year, for as long as we stay there.It also opens us up to other streams of income.
5) People are forgetting the income that away suppoort generates, the sad fact is around 5-6 teams sell their allocation at present. That would become 2-3 if we go to Kirkby. Because lets Be honest not even supporters from other teams would want us to go to Kirkby. They would spend £20 on a taxi to the ground and £20 on a taxi back to the city for a night out or train.
6) Big teams on the UP should not be looking to relocate to an inferior site.

Of course i will go to Kirkby and watch the Blues, and maybe in time i will be happy with the move. But to Ballot season ticket holders who have to put up with shit facilities week in week out saying stay at Goodison or move to kirkby, they are your only options is not a ballot to me, its a gun to our heads.
Neil Pearse
71   Posted 21/08/2007 at 09:10:44

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Blue Chris, I sympathise with all of your points, but in the end it comes down to this: unless we get a very rich new investor, WE CANNOT AFFORD TO BUILD AN EXPENSIVE STADIUM IN THE CITY CENTRE. (And no one can seriously deny that the Loop would be an expensive stadium.)

I am sad about this too, and wish things were different. I wish we were as rich as our neighbours. But we aren’t. They can afford things we can’t. Sometimes you have to face reality.

If we lose Kirkby, and don’t get this very rich saviour, we are going to be in a very sorry state indeed. Reality.
Archie Leitch
72   Posted 21/08/2007 at 09:06:16

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Whatever the eventual outcome, this site has certainly not covered itself in glory, with its outrageous bias towards a "No" vote.

As for Lyndon - strange how you always have the time to respond almost immediately to posts you don’t like, but didn’t have the time to fix a technical glich with a poll (that you didn’t like either...hmmm)
colin.fitz
73   Posted 21/08/2007 at 09:23:33

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Neil and Chris make some powerful points, I’m sitting here with my ballot paper in hand, knowing that it has to go today, and I’m torn. My head is telling me what I think we all know, we have to leave Goodison and it’s also telling me that there’s more holes in the Kirkby project than a piece of swiss cheese and now to pour more oil on troubled waters someone has sent this link, http://bluekipper.net/new/index.php?showtopic=41776
who know’s if it’s true, it’s certainly in Wyness speak and if it is him calling the council "red herring" purveyors and the vote is an unexpected NO then Everton are in real trouble. Whilst LFC get on with getting everthing they need for their stadium project, including a combined £40M in grant contributions, we’re clearly not communicating and not doing the business with LCC.All our eggs appear to be in one basket, a basket owned by Tesco, clearly one thing KW was totally honest about from day one was, or should I say is, that there is no plan b and no matter how much posturing by LCC, WB and Bestway it looks like there never was or will be.
Peter Bottomley
74   Posted 21/08/2007 at 10:57:42

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The fact is that the Prof is spot on. Throwing open this debate by holding a vote was a mistake and the arguments against the Kirby solution are becoming more and more emotional. The bottom line is that if we were to allow the ’inmates to run the loony bin’ our club would be quickly driven into a financial cul de sac from which there would be no escape. I support Bill Kenwright 100% in what he is trying to do, which is to return our great club to the top.
Dave Moorcroft
75   Posted 21/08/2007 at 10:36:53

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Nice one Stan,This fucking board of directors and also the same people who come on this site saying the same thing every fucking day without once thinking about anything they say,They dont even read what people who have their doubts about Kirkby say,They just keep spewing the same shite.They must be vested interest people like Shareholders of tescos because anyoneone who was an EVERTONIAN would listen to both sides to get the best for OUR club,In fact i would go so far as to say they are fuckin RED CUNTS.All i have ever said is tell us the full story so we as individuals can make an educated decision and stop treating us like planks of fucking wood.Where the fuck is our leader Bill Kenwright at such a MOMENTOUS time in the lives of every EVERTONIAN.Stand up and be counted he said to every EVERTONIAN,I am saying to you Bill Kenwright stand up and tell us where you stand and dont known as the conman who destroyed EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB.You know Kirkby is not the answer thats why your keeping your head down.As i have said before i was born and bred in Kirkby so i know the Town like the back of my hand and the site is probably in the worst position for access roads,Plus the people who say yes are quick to point out how much it will cost to build bridges and access routes to a new stadium at the loop,But they forget to tell us that they are going to destroy a fully singed up senior school in Kirkby and also the site is not much bigger than the loop anyway(figures are being manipulated).Give us the full facts from both sides of the argument and let us make our minds up you twats.
Robert Carney
76   Posted 21/08/2007 at 11:10:48

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Blue Chris, Stan, Colin. Many thanks to you for your contributions over the debacle of a decision which has always had the outcome of Kirkby. We now hear that no independant arbitrators are allowed to watch the count when it takes place. The people at the club(Wyness comes to mind) have told the elctoral reform society under no circumstances can they attend. All independant minded people who have looked at the facts have seen that Wyness and Leahy have been economical with the truth since day one.

The deal of exclusivity with Tesco and Knowsley has annulled any interest out in the financial world regarding our beloved club. Bill Kenwright has destroyed any credibilty he had when taking over the club. I nver thought any Evertonian would say that. Tom Cannon's contribution has shown what an arshole will do to keep his little earner with the club.

We now have an uncertain future for Everton Football Club, but 50% of us will think twice before parting with our hard-earned cash in the furture.
ryan crest
77   Posted 21/08/2007 at 11:49:06

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Colin, let’s take Arsenal as an example. They financed the construction of their stadium using gate receipts as security and got a 10YR float rate of LIBOR +200bp, which works out at approx 7.2% in the current market.

However, now that have a completed stadium they are refinancing the deal by issuing a bond against the completed stadium at a rate of LIBOR +52bp, which works out at approx 5.72%, and swapping this out with the original loan.

It’s the same principle as getting a bridging loan to build your new house. You pay a higher rate of interest when the security is a patch of land and a pile of bricks. But once you have a brand spanking new house you can fix your rate much lower.

I feel that your article is either deliberately misleading or you’re talking nonsense. I’m not sure which is worse.
Lee Spargo
78   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:14:56

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This is madness.

The options of either redeveloping Goodison or building at the Loop are nowhere near as attractive as Kikby from a commercial point of view. Whatever figures have been quoted and arguing over those figures is irrelevant really isn’t it? The bottom line is that Knowlsley Council are providing the land for free. Warren Bradley has already stated that LCC will not do the same. Tesco are making a considerable contribution to the cost of the build as well.

Are Besway going to give us the land at the loop for free and then help finance the cost of the build? I dont think so do you?

So, unless Warren Bradley suddenly changes his mind and LCC provide a big space of land for free and then EFC find a commercial partner to pump in a load of dough, there is no alternative is there?

Kirkby is the future - deal with it and get on with supporting the team.
colin.fitz
79   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:02:24

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"Ryan Crest" please don’t try and support the "professors" article we all know that it’s complete and utter rubbish. We both know, and I think we can agree on this, that debt finance is a complex issue often assembled from multiple sources, as in fact is the Arsenal package as can be seen here,http://www.arsenal.com/userIncludes/docs/interim_results_21022007.doc, a document I read probably like yourself a long time ago, the interest profile is towards the end as I’m almost certain you’ll know. I’m pleased you picked on Arsenal, here’s their prospectus produced for their fans on their proposed move: http://www.arsenal.com/emiratesstadium/article.asp?article=373175 I think we’ll also agree that they did a better job on the information front. Like everything Ryan there’s always two sides to a story, some don’t want to look whilst others will consider both sides and quite rightly question both sides, you may not have agreed with my assessment of the "professors" effort, perhaps when some realistic information appears on alternatives and I question them you’ll realise I’m not biased, just trying to cut through the obvious bullshit.
Richard Hindley
80   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:13:48

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Colin, you are exactly right in what you say.

Anyone who thinks the Kirkby deal is a good one is living in Cloudcuckooland. It’s pathetic, and the propaganda in favour of it is nothing short of half truths and lies.

The actions of EFC during this whole ballot period have completely gone against anything accepted and acceptable in a free vote, as they have continuously pumped out propaganda of their own, ably aided and abetted by the local press. Whatever the outcome of this vote, it’s a farce, and an insult to Everton FC and its supporters. It would have been better to spare us and do what they thought was best.

NSNO
Neil Pearse
81   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:29:55

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Dave (especially) and Robert - The tones of your recent posts are disgraceful and completely out of order. Calling fellow Blues "arseholes" and "cunts" because they too want the best for Everton but don’t happen to agree with you is shocking. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
ryan crest
82   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:24:08

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And another thing. You state in your article that: ’Loans involving large amounts such as this are currently obtained between one to two points over base so’.

But the rate of a loan depends on the credit rating of the securities offered and its term - the size is irrelevant.

I work in an industry that borrows and lends literally billions of dollars worth of cash daily - all at a rate well below what you’d pay for a mortgage or a credit card.

We’re talking about building a stadium in conjunction with one of the most highly rated corporate bodies in the country, maybe the world, not a dodgy loan from Ocean Finance.

I really don’t think a cursory glance at the business section of the Sun really qualifies you to comment on deals which are well beyond your experience.
Flotsam
83   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:27:53

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I think it’s difficult to not get cynical with different figures flying about and stories of no third party being allowed to confirm the vote count and stuff. It just annoys me about the no plan B business. If any company were investigating relocation and directors said - well its this option or we stay and rot where we are seems lazy if not outright incompetant. I know they have investigated other options and you cannot discount all of them in the seemingly (to me anyway) rather tactless manner of Wynes et al.
Neil Pearse
84   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:45:11

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I am sure Wyness regrets ever saying "there is no plan B". A PR disaster obviously! But it might still be true - Everton have been looking for a city centre site FOR YEARS and haven’t found one (some of the comments on here seem to assume that we’ve only just started looking). And still there are no credible plan Bs.
Blue Chris
85   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:44:55

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2 more things i forgot during my rant!

1)Gate receipts matter less and less in this day and age with most of the money coming from TV & soon to be Internet TV deals.

2) And does anyone thing Liverpool could afford their stadium, perhaps i am missing something but they got their plans in position then touted the club to potential buyers. As novel but effective strategy. I mean what do a couple of yanks know about securing land in liverpool. I thought Rick Parry sorted it all before he stepped a side for the good of the club. The Yanks were brought in with the hard work done. We dont need to purchase any land to become an attractive investment, get the planning done, get the proposals on the table and then fuck off Kenright. But this means hard work without a nice sizable return.
colin.fitz
86   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:54:53

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Quality professor, er sorry I mean Ryan!
Sean
87   Posted 21/08/2007 at 12:39:37

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WHAT tesco purse are you yes voters on about exactly??? You make it sound like they will pay for the stadium!

They are not, they are covering a few of the things they would need for the store... Im guessing parking, infrastructure etc. Costs they would have to pay anyway. So we are benefiting from that sure. i.e. if we had to pay for that ourselves it ’may’ come to as much as 50 mill...

But they will not be ever giving a penny directly to us. Supermarket PLC shareholders dont take kindly to the "Donation to football club of £50 million" lines in the company accounts that reduce their dividends!

This whole Tesco has more money than Bestway argument is ridiculous in the extreme. If we build at the loop or anyone else, it will be a similar deal where the partner (Tesco, Bestway, Virgin Megastore whatever!!!!!) will be building infrastructure for their store anyway and we will benefit in kind because we won’t have to pay for those costs.

Give up on these two ridiculous arguments once and for all.

1. We are not getting a PENNY from tesco
2. Stadium partners we take on can be any size it doesnt matter... they are building the infrastructure anyway and if they have the money they have the money!
Blue_Singh
88   Posted 21/08/2007 at 13:03:00

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Attention to everyone!!!!
Fixtures for live matches:
Tesco United v/s Bestway FC
Kirkby Rovers v/s Loop United
Warren Bradley FC v/s Keith Wyness FC



Please predict your scores. I wont predict because im a fanatic evertonian.

Thx
Steve Callan
89   Posted 21/08/2007 at 13:00:06

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So professor Cannon has dared to venture an opinion has he? Outrageous!! and the club and the electoral reform society (an independent organisation with a national reputation for impartiality by the way) won’t let any tom dick or harry into the count? Must be a fix then. Let me guess what happens if and when the vote is yes. You’ll give us one or both of the following - the margin in favour isn’t enough to "morally" justify the move and/or the vote was fiddled. I have to say that I was originally undecided but voted yes (a) because of the case the club has put and (b) because the insults and moaning on this website directed at anyone who dared to make a case for Kirkby has made me sick.

The only reassurance I draw from all of this ranting is that as it gets more hysterical you must think the vote will go in favour of the move. I hope that ends the debate but why do I think that, if Toffeeweb has anything to do with it, then it won’t?
Tom Davies
90   Posted 21/08/2007 at 13:27:25

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I’m extremely worried about thie didve this argument has caused, I for 1 am discusted and ashamed with EvertonFC becasue no one involved actually seems to care about the club. They all want to satisfy their own needs simple as.

That is why everton fans need to stick together, listen to each others views and just maybe start thinking a little bit more about the football.
Andrew Kirby
91   Posted 21/08/2007 at 13:27:56

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Lyndon Lloyd wrote:- You can?t surely be talking about Everton FC because if, as we?ve been told, a similar package is on the table at Scotland then surely the club stands to make more from an inner-city site that’s closer to the current stadium, the core support, the central business district and all the transport infrastructure that comes with it?



There is NOT a similar package on the table, far from it.

PSC
92   Posted 21/08/2007 at 13:06:44

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Dear All,

I am not a frequent contributor to the site, though I visit it every day. I enjoy reading the comments which display the passion of Evertonians. I am probably more proud simply to be an Evertonian than I am of the cups we have won. One of the best aspects is the clubs universality. I travel the world as part of my job and often bump into exiled blues. They are not like exiled reds or mancs, who are ten-a-penny. In my view being an Evertonian means far more than playing at Goodison, walking across Stanley Park and bigger to me than being a resident of the City of Liverpool. Increasingly we are a global family of fans who are united by a mission to conquer the world of club football. Getting to the point, I voted "yes" to Kirby for the following reasons:
1) I dont really care if we are in a city whose political representatives clearly dont give a damn where we have our ground.
2) Liverpool City Council’s timing on this leads me to mistrust them. In my view they can only be helped from outside and lack the drive, resources and ambition to do anything remarkable compared to other provincial cities such as Manchester and Birmingham. The City’s rennovations have come through central government policy rather than their own creativity. The Kings Dock exemplified this point. They had a great chance and blew it. They have also shown favouritism to the RS on a number of occasions.
3) Everton FC have been open on their intentions to work with Kirby and Tesco from the start. LCC and other parties have had plenty of time to work up other bids. If the vote is "no" we wont go there. They are due some respect for this at least.
4) Its a few more minutes on the No19 or the Northern Line. Crossing the border in this respect is meaningless and certainly has no meaning in football terms. We even have a "homegrown" team member from Kirby.

To finish, nobody I know loves walking to Goodison, stopping off at one of the chippies on Goodison Rd, grabbing a quick cuppa in the church and sitting on the same spot where he used to stand with his dad more than I do. However, we are a club that needs a world class stadium. I have chosen to trust the board’s analysis of rebuilding Goodison or relocating to the loop because they are Evertonians as well. In any case, nobody can steal my memories. They are in my head!

Dont forget, we are all Evertonians, not Goodisonians or Liverpudlians!
Andrew Kirby
93   Posted 21/08/2007 at 13:36:03

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Danny Mullally wrote:-he has alienated me and many other fellow blues.
It is rally late in the day to go over all this mess again, but look already at what this ground move has done to the fans. Total division, and is that really what is in the best interests of the club?

Do you not think that it is KEIOC who have brought about such division.

Agreed, the club needs no mandate from the fans, and could simply have said (as all other clubs have done) this is the best deal, take it or leave it.

Having seen the attitude first hand of some of the KEIOC supporters handing out leaflets at Bremen game, as well as Alfie’s Onslaught, it’s not Everton who are shameful.
Rob F
94   Posted 21/08/2007 at 14:16:58

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if you want to vote no then you’re stupid. opinions of stupid people are wrong. so the only correct vote is a yes vote.

and before you get on your high horse and moan about resorting to insults of fellow evertonions who are simply expressing their veiws on something the care about etc etc, please accept that i’m just addressing the balance on this site. swap yes for no in my first statement and you have the no campaign in a nut shell. and a summation of most articles on this site.

fingers crossed for yes
robet carney
95   Posted 21/08/2007 at 15:09:36

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I make no apologies for giving people abuse who do not look at the facts.

The only commercial benefits from the Kirkby move go to Tesco, not Everton. Simple Fact, that is why they want us as junior partners. It also helps them to get Knowsley to fund the road developments which are needed.

The same will apply to Bestway who are hoping to transfer the loop site for a better commercial based plot.

Everton need to stay in the city to progess in the money stakes.

I and many people have said surely to maximise revenues you will need to be in the heart of the city. Who will want to celebrate there fiftieth birthday or attend charity functions wedding etc, etc out in Kirkby. Liverpool will collect the lot.

Any new stadium will have to be used on a seven day basis, not just match days.

As for having no money, how long is this going to be spun for. The financial world is throwing money at the premeirship. All other clubs have gone into massive debt.

The weetabix kids are borrowing money to pay for their stake in both Liverpool and the stadium cost’s.
Neil Pearse
96   Posted 21/08/2007 at 15:58:30

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Well, Robert, personally I don’t believe like you do in abusing people "who do not look at the facts".

This has saved you some abuse. Your statement "the only commercial benefits from the Kirkby move go to Tesco, not Everton" is factually false, and I give you the credit of knowing this (i.e. you are not stupid).

If partnering with someone gets you a stadium at lower cost than you would otherwise get it, that is a commercial benefit. That is what would happen for Everton with the move to Kirkby.

It is possible to be against the Kirkby move for all sorts of good reasons. But not for the reason that it brings no commercial benefits for Everton Football Club. That is simply wrong.
Paul Johnson
97   Posted 21/08/2007 at 15:56:18

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This whole debate has been wearing us all down for months, but then gems like this come along:

"Christ, we?ve got an amazing lot of talent on here; everyone claims to be either an architect, business consultant, accountant or a lawyer, and now we?ve got the fella who built Wembley!

Let?s design, finance and build the fucking stadium ourselves, eh?"

It made me laugh out loud on the train from Lime St to The Smoke.

Sandy Brown, we salute you :-)
The Dude
98   Posted 21/08/2007 at 16:21:15

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Kirkby is best for Kenwrights pocket and Wyness’ bonus, not for Everton FC.

If you don’t understand that they are looking at this from a short term perspective and have voted yes then you need to take a long look at yourself.
Frank
99   Posted 21/08/2007 at 17:23:52

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4.8 miles Goodison to Kirkby Site [10 minute drive]

2.8 miles Goodison to Loop site [7 minute drive]

what’s the beef?
jonnie
100   Posted 21/08/2007 at 17:40:45

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if you go to Kirby you ll get an empty boring stadium and then afterwards you can DRIVE back (so whose driving?!) back the whole bleeding BORING WAY. with the loop people can walk back or wahtever they want and pop into town easily - it also means our towns money stays in support of the local businesses rather than being hooved up by tescon
Tom Hughes
101   Posted 21/08/2007 at 17:51:07

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Frank: it wont be 10 mins when 50,000 are travelling all in the same direction along the handfull of traffic lanes that feed Kirkby from Liverpool. It wont be 10 mins to the people attempting to bus it to kirkby from all over the city/wirral when only a handfull of places have direct services to it, and the public transport provision for Kirkby is only a few percent that of town. It won’t be 10 mins if you’re getting the train which is only 4 per hr, equating to only a few hundred fans. Town handles over 100,000 people every rush hour (there is double that capacity), and everyone in this city and the wirral has access to direct buses or trains or even ferries to Liverpool city centre. Kirkby will NEVER match that! I worked in Kirkby for 6 years up till last year, and was involved in designing the merseytram system, I am fully familiar with the transport issues...... and I’m afraid "10 mins" doesn’t cover it!
efcmark777 (Rusty Man)
102   Posted 21/08/2007 at 17:12:53

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NEIL ALECOCK....I KNOW YOU ACE AND LOOK WHAT YOU STARTED !!!

Colin, tell us what you do for a living ? Proff Cannon is a public figure and love him or hate him he has set out to support "his" position and he does it in a way that many seem to have appreciated. I suspect he is over-simplifying a very complex argument because he doesnt really want his "open letter" to be ridiculed....why ? Because all he really wants to say is this.....
1. Terry Leahy is one of the best business leaders in the world and whilst he knows the kirkby deal is good for Tesco he clearly believes that, emotion to one side, it is also very good for EFC.
2. It may well prove more costly than our CEO states but for pity’s sake....WE ALL KNOW IT WILL. Of course there will be over-runs, delays, teething troubles blah blah blah....BUT....the same applies only more so to a Loop site that has to have incredible enabling construction works and nobody is saying who will ever fund these costs ?
3. Whatever your detailed position on interest rates etc etc it is hard to escape the view that many supporters see the kirkby project not as a cow shed in a place they seem rather sniffy about....but as a clearly less expensive and good quality option.
4. Anyone who thinks differently should be allowed to have their say but far too many "no voters" seem to think that those voting yes are beneath contempt. You are wrong and are only persuading some to vote yes just to spite you....which is a shame as this debate demands better argument than that.

I do ask Colin and Lyndon and co what I feel to be a very fair question.....have you really considered the apparently distant possibility that you are WRONG ? And what of the consequences of being wrong in this vital debate ? We could be throwing away a gilt edged opportunity to develop a great team on the back of a modern stadium and better, if not exactly unbelievably better, finances ? We could thrive on a more independent identity. "were just a small club from kirkby" could in fact be a rallying call not an insult, as clearly our supporter base could, yes could, widen and be stronger as a result.

If we see a no vote and 5 to 10 years of, well, nothing.....will you be satisfied that you got it right ? Will you feel content if investors disappear and the Loop Site construction costs are dwarfed by the lending needed to build new bridges and access roads ? And will you be happy as LFC’s massive stadium rises as ours falls ?
LOOK.....I know the above isnt really that fair, and many "no" voters feel that way for deeply personal as well as "commercial/financial" type reasons. But there seems no sense that this is a close call when you read some of the contributions. What if you are wrong ? It could kill the club off just as easily as those campaigning for a no vote say Kirkby will do.
I voted yes because I STILL do not see a viable alternative and I STILL accept that Kirkby is not perfect but in my judgement it is a better option than those presented and I reckon Mr Cannon just wanted to say that, but remembered he is a "professor" and needed a few charts like Colin to bolster his point !

We shall know soon enough but I sense that some are preparing the ground for anti Kenwright/Wyness conspiracy theories linked to the ERS who have been independently counting and verifying "votes" for a lifetime yet apparently cannot be trusted by KEOIC to tell the truth.....and that sums up why we desperately need to get this vote announced and move fwd.....yes or no.

cheers, Mark (Rusty Man)
Edge
103   Posted 21/08/2007 at 18:11:46

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To those who proffer the arguement that we should be voting "yes" as the Board "know what they are doing", can I just mention the following? Kings Dock. Fortress Sports Fund. "Losing" 5,000 season ticket holders due to a totally misjudged price rise which they are forced to backtrack on the following season. Selling Wayne Rooney, the flower of English football and the most in demand, marketable and talented young player on the planet for £23 million. That’s £5 million more than Michael Carrick. And now, to put the top hat on it, we have arrived at the point where they are giving away Everton season tickets free with mobile phones.

Everton is too important to be in this board’s clumsy paws. Their incompetence is proven. Their lack of a plan B is a dereliction of duty. Trust the board? I genuinely wouldn’t have this lot running a corner shop.
John
104   Posted 21/08/2007 at 19:36:11

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"Lyndon Lloyd" Well David Moyes actually mentions that the Kirkby stadium would provide that with the facilities they need to move forward on. Just to prove this read this statement

http://stadium.evertonfc.com/news/david-moyes.php
Domingo
105   Posted 21/08/2007 at 19:34:03

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Isnt it funny that it’s always Everton that struggles and has to do things the hard way?
Where was all the furore when the other shower wanted to build a new ground?
He we are B****** Child, go an build on the park and look down the noses of your neighbour!!! We’ll move them out of town soon anyway............ Enough said, like or lump it, we’re going. But my vote wont take me there!!
Blue In Bolton
106   Posted 21/08/2007 at 19:30:57

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It’s a well known fact that both Bill Kenwright and Keith Wyness were spotted In Dallas Texas November 1963 with still smoking guns in their hands.
Some theorists claimed that Kennedy had gained the Presidency with the help of the aforementioned thoroughly duplicitous bastards, by means of blatant vote rigging.Kennedy Double crossed them so they , not Oswald did the deed.
Total bollocks i know..so is the conspiracy theory the no voters are already cooking up in their fevered imaginations,

Demanding to be at a vote count indeed. How utterly tedious and predictable, not to mention contemptible.
Sorry if i offend certain no voters with these comments people, but as some appear to care not how they respond to people with differing opinions to theirs..i don’t give a toss if it offends them or not.
But they can feel free to use The ’Dallas ’ previous record for future smear campaigns if they so wish..
Spanish Billy
107   Posted 21/08/2007 at 22:22:52

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Bluein Bolton, what a tosser you are. You sound like a right gobshite, would love to see your face when the result is known. Even if it is a yes vote there are other irons in the fire to prevent Everton moving out of my city.So stay involved and stop getting a weed its interesting reading your posts.
Blue In Bolton
108   Posted 21/08/2007 at 22:50:39

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A tosser and a gobshite..?
Full marks for at least not throwing the Kopite slur at me also.
And by other irons in the fire to keep Everton in your City,,do you by per chance mean to say that if the vote favours Kirkby, that some may seek to dispute/overturn a democratic vote..? Surely not..
That is my ’beef’ or ’weed’ as you put it Billy.
If its a yes vote.. i’ll have a happy face on... if its a no vote i’ll just have to go with it won’t I ?.
robert carney
109   Posted 21/08/2007 at 23:23:19

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Blue in Bolton;

The depths you sink to is below the gutter.

You have raised your abdominable head out of the shit to try and defend our so called custodians from ensuring a fair vote.

It was they who originally invited KEIOC to the count. Why have they now declined?

Over the last few weeks your input as been despicable.

I have asked the likes of you and your ilk to stick to facts about the proposals. You are not capable.

You claim to live in Bolton yet cannot understand the issues regarding your local club and its location out of town. You also hide behind a pseudonym so that people who know the gobshite you really are cannot identify you.

When your undenying devotion to people in authority over this issue has gone away I hope you return to the rathole you ascended from.
Blue In Bolton
110   Posted 21/08/2007 at 23:17:59

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R.E Edge..

Selling Wayne Rooney was not the boards fault.. If Everton maybe had the financial backing at the time to throw shedloads of money at the lying, money grabbing little wanker and his agent, then perhaps he may of stayed to flash his Once a blue always a blue shirt at us on the odd occasion.
I think that nasty little episode was in part responsible for the nasty little episode we are enduring at present.
The club have woken up and decided to take action to try and ensure future finance..i’e new Stadium
relocation to a site that THEY feel will ensure that it never happens again.
They’ve put it to a vote,,they did’nt have to..
Wayne Rooney is a fantastic footballer..He is also a gobshite.
Blue in Bolton
111   Posted 21/08/2007 at 23:48:31

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Robert..

Sticks and stones...
robertcarney
112   Posted 21/08/2007 at 23:40:06

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All;

Lets not forget what an independant fansite is all about.

If this site, Bluekipper, whenskiesaregrey etc. did not exist we would not have had the platforms to debate the issues.Do you think the echo would have given us so much space.

I now know Everton would not have.

So instead of aiming abuse you should be celebrating what we have rather than knocking for allowing us the opportunity to vent our feelings(both sides) over the most momntous decision since we walked out of Anfield.

I am so passionate about the debacle in front of us. I also know oyu are as well. Celebrate what we have, and hopefully at this late stage VOTE NO>
robert carney
113   Posted 21/08/2007 at 23:54:21

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blue in bolton;

still not answering anything that is factual.
Blue In Bolton
114   Posted 22/08/2007 at 00:11:53

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Robert.

I’ve answered many times, and what is factual..is that we need to move...It is also factual that the vote i believe..is on a re-location to Kirkby.. It is also factual..that i believe that this is the best option on the table for the club as things stand..not later..but now.. it is also factual that you disagree with me.

It is also factual that you tend to call people names a lot.
.
It is also factual..in my opinion..that you know next to sod all about Bolton compared to myself and my Wanderers friends.
So why persist with an illogical..some may say unfactual argument..?
And please don’t keep banging on about Bradley and the loop..Even i would’nt stoop that low..
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
115   Posted 22/08/2007 at 05:49:35

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John: I stand corrected regarding Moyes’s comments on Kirkby.

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