The pro Kirkby reasons ? ?The Deal of the century? ? Wyness:
- Tesco will contribute £50M to the new stadium on land contributed by Knowsley Council in a deal which will leave the Club with minimal debts.
- Increased revenue from the new stadium will mean manager David Moyes will have up to £10M a year extra to spend on players.
- Tesco will be able to cash in its loyalty points with Barr Construction and a new stadium, worth up to £75M, will be built for the bargain price of £50M.
- If the move does not go ahead, there is no Plan B and there are fears Goodison Park will not be fit for its purpose in 10 years.
- The financial burden on the club will be further reduced by selling the naming rights to the stadium and the sale of Goodison Park, which is worth about £15M.
- Mr Wyness said he could not put an accurate figure on the overall costs of the project.
- No debt: If there is one truth in the financial sector that I believe this the one: ?There is no such thing as a free lunch?. Even Sir Terry Leahy in his open letter states nowhere that ?Tesco will contribute £50M to the new stadium??
- Increased revenue for players: £10M actually doesn't sound that much in the modern market? I would also ask how the figure of an extra £10M in transfer funds would be generated every season by a new stadium.
- Stadium for £25M less: Ok let?s see... we will be granted aa 33% discount!!! I am not familiar with the profits in the building industry but it seems to me like an impossible rate.
- No Plan B: As a regular reader and contributor to Toffeeweb, I have read a billion opinions from different people; however, there is one who to me seems to know what is talking about. He is very intelligent and professional in his remarks and he does prove that GP can be redeveloped at reasonable costs. His name is Tom Hughes.
- Naming rights and Goodison Park: There is this great article written by Joe Beardwood which includes: ?When the club struggles to attract a main shirt sponsor willing to pay £2.5M per season then the idea that naming rights will raise £25M over 10 years (£2.5M per season) seems extremely ambitious.?
- Overall costs: This is the most ridiculous statement I came across. How can KW state that the new stadium will generate £10M and we would be left with £15M extra debt if he can?t put any ?accurate figure? on it? This for me is FM pure. Maybe it will be better for KW and all Evertonians to read another excellent analysis, by Colin Fitz.
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1 Posted 08/09/2007 at 17:39:10
None of the numbers seem to add up and Keith Wyness struggled to tell a consistent story throughout the?campaign?. One of my fears is that we will get a cheap, low quality stadium and the £25m discount thing does not stack up meaning we will get a £50m job for £50m. Chelsea spent £34m on their main stand alone and that was 6 years ago.
I find it all a bit depressing and I can?t help thinking Wyness will be off once it?s done, probably with a fat bonus, whilst we live with what has been created - dubious stadium in a dubious location.
2 Posted 08/09/2007 at 19:12:21
While I accept and expect waves of articles like this, I just wonder how many varieties of the same article adding nothing new to the debate will ths site entertain.
Doesn’t it continue our "division"?
It reminds me of the socialist workers party / militant tendancy in the 1970’s/ 80’s who were so convinced of the "truth" that anyone said that didnt agree with their worldview was viewed as being victims of brainwashing, enemy propoganda etc. In esesnce to vote yes confers some form of stupidity on the person.
Let’s start from the beginning. The vote was not to move, but to continue discussion about Kirkby.
72% of people eligible to vote expressed a view.
I could spend sometime trashing Colin Firth’s lenghty, but hole driven article (let’s build a tunnel under Walton Road without a blush or red face), but what’s the point? The vote is over. You can’t re-run an election because your view did not prevail.
We should try and unite to get Everton FC to speak to Bestway and then compare both options. They can then do what they should have really done in the beginning by saying "Listen folks, we have compared both Kirkby, and Bestways, this is how we have compared both options and we are going for xyz because this offeres the best solution for Everton Football Club"
Now doesn’t that take us forward a little bit?
3 Posted 08/09/2007 at 19:44:55
4 Posted 08/09/2007 at 19:49:37
5 Posted 08/09/2007 at 21:03:40
Now doesn?t that take us forward a little bit?
AJ, I agree entirely with your sentiments... but if anyone voted YES under the premise that Everton will continue to look at other options then I think they are seriously seriously DELUDED .. Everton have already rubbished everything else IN PUBLIC !
Kirkby is a done deal ! Nothing can stop it now ...so we all better get over it.
6 Posted 08/09/2007 at 21:55:02
7 Posted 08/09/2007 at 23:02:34
Of course, time is now running out as the Premiership changes radically in favour of those who have strong financial positions, every year that passes and we are stuck at Goodison is negative in revenue terms for the club, the club has been looking for years for sites within the LCC area, they have found no better alternatives, we have found no better alternatives, and all the touted alternatives are clearly worse (somehow building all the tunnels and bridges etc. required to make the Loop viable (maybe) will leave Everton with LESS debt and more money for players???).
What the NO voters have to produce is a viable, fundable site within the LCC area which will come on stream within the next five or so years and not bankrupt the club in the process. WHERE IS IT?
The club have looked for the past years and are telling us: we haven’t found one one, but we have found a very good option in Kirkby. That’s why we are going with it. YES voters said: on balance, it would have been great if we had found an LCC site and made it work (e.g King’s Dock), but we didn’t, this is where we now are, and we can’t afford to wait any longer chasing fantasies.
NO voters: it really is over to you now. The club has looked for viable and fundable alternatives and hasn’t found any. You think they exist. We can’t wait for ever. WHERE ARE THEY?
I am passionate about Everton. I don’t want to be stuck in Goodison whilst we are further overtaken by other clubs in the Premiership. I don’t see any other alternatives. We really have been looking for a long time. The Board is being highly responsible in terms of the future of our club in saying: we can’t wait any longer.
8 Posted 08/09/2007 at 23:55:23
Yes, its Colin Fitz / sorry Colin.
No, they won’t talk to Bestway, but put it this way.
Somone comes near your home, puts up a design for something that you may desire, employ their own designers, do all the work themselves and then come with a design and bill that you may not be able to afford, or a design that you think is gash. All this at a time when you are looking into getting the same thing anyway where you have "some" control over design, and costs.
That’s probably what Everton are feeling. I don’t understand their stance. Probably Kirkby is a done deal anyway. I would have got involved with the bestway project, even from a discrete distance to see what the bill was, and then say either yes or no.
The obvious problem, and I use that word, is the involvement of a politician. OK, he’s a blue - so fucking what? You trust a politician at your peril.
But as I said, I would have engaged with them, keeping all my senses about me.
The reality is that Everton haven’t so, Bestway needs to be a viable and deliverable alternative whic compels Everton to come to the table.
9 Posted 09/09/2007 at 00:36:04
Tesco want Everton to be in Kirkby so its ’game over’ for everything else... just count your blessings that they wanted us in Kirkby, not St Helens, Runcorn or elsewhere.
PS... I don’t get your argument re: Warren Bradley? Don’t Knowsley council have politicians too? I’d be less inclined to trust a spectacularly successful businessman cos it generally pays them to screw people over (even if he is a blue)
10 Posted 09/09/2007 at 01:10:15
11 Posted 09/09/2007 at 01:36:13
Tell me why I should not be?
12 Posted 09/09/2007 at 08:32:59
13 Posted 09/09/2007 at 11:40:54
14 Posted 09/09/2007 at 12:01:39
Yes we need a better stadium but for people who think we will dissapear if we dont get one soon are talking utter shite.
The club needs to look at all options and at this moment in time they are clearly not .
Look at our attendances 34,000 look at the empty seats in the main stand function areas and if anyone thinks we will fill 50,000 in kirkby on a wednesday night in january when they can sit in their warm local and watch it on a eastern sattelite channel are living in cuckoo land.
You can call them all you like but alot of people already have chosen this route , you can watch every single game in the pub now and when we move to kirkby more will take this option because like it or not to thousands of fans going to watch the blues is not just about the 90 minutes this outlet village stadium will take away the whole matchday feeling we all know and love now I just feel we will turn into a merseyside version of boro.
15 Posted 09/09/2007 at 12:26:57
16 Posted 09/09/2007 at 12:59:20
Your points about TV are very well made. All the time more money is steadily coming from TV rights than stadium tickets. Agreed. However, we still can’t stay at Goodison. And no team is going to do well over the long term if it is playing in a crap stadium with no fans and no atmosphere.
Obviously many here think that is what will happen with Kirkby. We are not Boro, we have real history and passion, and I don’t think for a moment it will happen to Everton. We need of course to keep the pressure on the club to build a high quality stadium.
17 Posted 09/09/2007 at 13:07:05
18 Posted 09/09/2007 at 13:21:22
but the club owe it to us to speak to all options and it appears that sly fucker wyness just wont, they just want the cheapest option to them.
We know the council are idiots but they literally begged us to do the kings dock with the timescales they allowed us and yet the ring fenced money ( £3o mill ) was not ringfenced.
The main issue for me is how they are fleeing from the city as over the coming decades the place will explode and we will be stuck by farms miles away its ridiculous.
I just cannot trust these men with this decision as it has already done more damage to our support than has ever been done in nearly 130 years of history and I would like to know how many yes voters deep down can say they trust these men with their history of lies.fortress and the rooney lies to name just two , oh and as said before ringfenced.
19 Posted 09/09/2007 at 13:35:28
20 Posted 09/09/2007 at 13:43:58
21 Posted 09/09/2007 at 13:45:53
I just want to know the very basics of how a big stadium is going to built that Everton doesn’t have to fund almost all of. Is that really too much to ask after all this time? We have that information for Kirkby.
22 Posted 09/09/2007 at 13:49:12
KW clearly thinks that he and the club HAVE been looking for alternatives FOR YEARS - and haven’t found any. And since so far no plausible alternatives have in fact been suggested, you’d have to agree that he has a point.
If I say that I looked everywhere and couldn’t find it, and you say "no, it’s really there", I think it is now up to you to produce it. KW has already done his looking.
23 Posted 09/09/2007 at 13:41:11
What exactly do you mean by "concrete" regarding Kirkby?
I think you’re probably the best person to answer the question without the hyperboly, and anti-Wyness / Bill shit that others may spout in order to not answer a straight question with a straight answer.
24 Posted 09/09/2007 at 14:07:46
There are in fact several possibilities for the redevelopment of GP..... from a simple replacement for the Parkend bringing the capacity upto 48-50k. There is the possibility of an enabling scheme to make the cost of this to the club minimal dependant on the scale of the development, the city planners agree with this as does Trevor Skempton, consultant Architect for Grosvenor’s project in the city. Removing the vast majority of obstructions in the rest of the ground by re-roofing would probably cost less than £10m. If required, in the future this new Park end could be continued around the mainstand side, bridging the road, and taking the capacity into the high 50’s minimum. The old Leitch stands could be preserved and Everton would be left with the best combination of old and new in the world. Alternatively, one or both of these classic stands could be replaced if that was deemed necessary and something similar to the scheme that I showed could be worked towards. If the club have looked at these options they should be able to show us the comparison of costs. The fans could then judge for themselves precisely what they would prefer to do, and/or what value they add to which ever option. This clearly has not occured. The reason we haven’t been given the precise cost to the club, (and there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn’t have these costs by now) is that we could indeed make that comparison..... and I don’t believe they compare very favourably with the redevelopment option. As far as the Loop is concerned, no-one has said that EFC would have to fund this in its entirety. The financing is a similar process which Tesco are using by way of enabling developments etc, plus of course Bestway as a private company, can also invest whatever they wish unlike TESCO.
25 Posted 09/09/2007 at 14:19:18
We are all concerned about the long term future of Everton... But, I think that the fans have traded their say on it now (that was what the vote was about?)... the long term future is in Kirkby.
Whether Kirkby leads to massive gates and a side winning trophies and playing in the champions league every year is the ??? Milion dollar question (its ??? because no-one has yet produced convincing figures)... I for one certainly hope that it does promote sustainable success on the pitch.
Its as certain as death and taxes or night and day that the club will move... only a change in Leadership in either Tesco, Knowsley or Everton could possibly prevent it... none of those scenario’s are going to happen.
What shouldn’t happen is for fans to ’walk away’ just because they think the deal stinks... That is so counter-productive, the last thing anyone would want is for Everton to be harmed long-term by its own fanbase (some might say it already has ... that is not an accusation that I would level).
I still question why the 5th largest club in England, a massive massive club with an illustrious history cannot attract significant investment in todays climate... either through takeover or by joint ventures that suit the club equally as much as the 3rd party involved. Say what you like about Thaksin Shinawatra, Glazer, Lerner, Bert and Ernie or Eggert Magnusson but these guys are investing millions - some into teams that it will take 150+ Million to make into real challengers ... we already have a very strong team, not through massive expenditure but through excellent management... we just need a new stadium! I like many feel that the ideal place for it is in Liverpool. The majority disagree and feel it is in Kirkby... so thats where we will go.
26 Posted 09/09/2007 at 17:10:15
While we have often claimed that this is the reason for the abject failure of BK?s much vaunted "24/7 search for investment", I had convinced myself that his eventual need to sell his substantial interest in the club ultimately lay at the heart of the Kirby decison. That does not mean he would sell NOW but 5 or 8 years down the road (I don?t know what age he will be by then) he will likely be in a position where he needs to consider selling up, and cashing in on the long-term investment he made to buy up Peter Johnson?s shares.
There is no doubt at all that Everton FC is not an attractive investment while it remains burdened by the old stadium (which is on the verge of collapse, so KW tells us), and that a gift-horse Deal of the Century which gives Everton a new (cheap?) stadium on the cheap will turn that investment equation around fully 180 degrees. I?m sorry but I just can?t get that out of my head.
Given the timeframes, and let?s say 5 to 8 years (worst case) before we are safely ensconsed in the Kirkby Cowshed, Bill will be able to sell his interest in the club for a very substantial ROI ? much, much, much more than he could get now. So, bottomline, he?d be mad, he?d be out of his mind (don?t say it) to even contemplate selling up his shares now.
27 Posted 09/09/2007 at 17:33:18
28 Posted 10/09/2007 at 07:28:45
If we do have to go, a lot of people with no axe to grind, experts in planning, stadium building, re-generation etc. All say GO INTO THE CITY, NOT OUT. The out of town option has been tried and found wanting.
We are moving into the centre all right, the centre of Kirkby!!! IT’S THE WRONG CENTRE.
The other thing confusing some comes from the Yes voters, you know, the ones who say ’we won, you lost, now let it go.’
Nobody won or lost, there was a vote, not an election, with no period of time ( say 5yrs max) in power for the ’winners’. There was a one off RESULT: 3 TOTALS, SOME NUMBERS.Roughly 60% wern’t impressed enough to vote Yes!!( No plan B mind, but hey I’m letting it go.)
The next tendency( with words like Hatton and militant bandied about yet) is to go on about mandates. There is no mandate, coz there was no election. All we had and ’They’ told us this, was Kirkby YES or NO (and no plan B...I am trying to let go, honest) 15000 didn’t believe in it enough to say yes, that mightn’t have been the question, it’s the whole point though.But don’t try and call 10K to 15K a mandate.
29 Posted 10/09/2007 at 13:36:26
LET’S STOP THE ARGUING. IT’S ALSO VERY BORING.
30 Posted 10/09/2007 at 17:11:38
31 Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:25:07
However, if we had "concrete" costings for Kirkby to compare, what the hell are we supposed to compare it to? There are no concrete facts for any of the options being thrown in the mix!
It’s difficult to be told not to accept the costings (holes and all) from KW/BK, but then expected to entertain the other sites which at the moment look like pie in the sky.
It’s so frustrating. I have made my peace and decision on a lot of the various arguments for and against which is why I then end up wanting solid costings for one/both/all/any site(s). Unfortunately, it looks like I will never get these.
I refuse to accept opinions from both sides of the debate that the club will be ruined if you vote the other way. Which is what many claim. Surely success on the pitch and the continued support of us fans can make either work with the right attitude?
Too many doomsday scenarios!
Too many itching to say I told you so!
For those who say they won’t go to Kirkby and say that the YES men can sit in their soleless, empty stadium and survey the misery that they’ve created, I say this...
How happy will you be that you no longer even have a club to support, having ditched x amount of years loyalty because the club did something you didn’t agree with. Let’s start putting everything to a vote shall we? Transfers? Kit design?
It’s getting out of hand and all I want is for our club to still be competing at the top level in 10 years time. Wherever we’re playing, I hope that we are.
32 Posted 10/09/2007 at 21:30:18
One question. You say you have had the figures. Can you then tell me how much Kirkby will cost this club? I’m not talking about the costs due to loss of identity, poor public transport or anything else at this point......
Just the precise bottom line for EFC for the stadium construction?
The club say they have done all the feasibility studies, so we should also know the cost for redevelopment of Goodison in whatever guise that takes. These should have all been presented to us for comparison, so we could judge and assess what value we attach to staying at Gp as opposed to what we might save going out of town or elsewhere. If those studies are so conclusive why not show them? It was the clubs responsibility to furnish us with these details, if only to confirm that they had actually studied the options. Fact is, the club denied only a few months ago that the site could even sustain 50k seats, which they later retracted. Bestway couldn’t possibly have produced figures in a couple of weeks, so it’s not really fair to expect it. However, if these figures are only a few months away, is it really a good idea to dismiss this option in a decision that will affect the whole future of the club..... for decades and generations to come?
33 Posted 11/09/2007 at 07:46:00
Read my post again, I am referring to the very ambiguous figures attributed to Kirkby (in various forms) from KW, EFC website etc. Everyone has seen those and pulled them apart, as I am sure many (YES voters) will with any figures for alternative sites.
The club has no obligation to show their figures (fans are not shareholders) they never have, it’s business not a democracy, which is why I don’t even understand why they gave fans the vote. It was a token gesture to try and keep fans sweet. It’s only served to divide the fan base to the extent that even when I agree with people on this site they still post back as if I haven’t.
When and if figures come out for another site, then and only then will I expect an exact comparison to come from the club.
As I have posted previously, I am happy for KEIOC to keep trying and searching for alternatives and I am happy to consider them. I am dismissing nothing, I had no vote and I am not therefore going to be told that I am part of the reason the club is going to "die" as some have put it. Just as I wouldn’t have taken responsibility if the vote had gone the other way and the club had also died as many yes voters will have us think.
Read my post again Tom, as it is an expression of my frustration at the whole thing, not a differing opinion to either side but more a backlash on the doomsday, pecimistic and abusive attitude to the whole thing. FROM BOTH SIDES!
34 Posted 11/09/2007 at 10:24:00
Actually, I am a shareholder but I don’t think its too relevant, I believe we have the right to vote on this important issue. The right move will not need the hardsell and will unite the fans, the wrong move will see us divided and could be catastrophic. Apologies, I may have misread your post, but the point I was trying to make is that the club have stated that they have all the figures for all the alternatives to prove conclusively that Kirkby is the only option. So, there is no reason why they cannot show us them. Having requested these directly I don’t believe they exist, and think the motives for moving have very little to do with alternatives or lack of them. They feel they have acquired an easy fix, and that appears to be the top and bottom of it, there may be ulterior motives that I do not know about.
35 Posted 11/09/2007 at 12:51:05
This is why I really want something concrete to come up for one of the alternatives, that would force them to either compare figures/reports/studies or admit that they had never even explored the possibilities.
I too agree that we should have the right to vote on this matter, but as we’ve previously discussed, what’s the point in having a vote when you’ve no idea what it is your voting for or against. In the end it was just a token gesture that (regardless of right move, wrong move) has devided the fan base.
Thanks for the reply Tom, and no need for apologies, I just wanted to make it clear that in essence I agreed with you, Just depressed at the division which it has created.
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