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Whose idea was this?

By Tony Marsh :  15/11/2007 :  Comments (106) :
So thats the new stadium in Kirkby is it? What a fucking joke. The once mighty Everton Football Club reduced to a bit-part player on a retail park in the shadow of Tescos, WH Smiths and Next ? oh sorry, I forgot Ethel Austins as well.

If this pile of garbbage is allowed to be built, Everton FC will become no better than a bowling alley or a Laser Quest. Forget the football ? there's loads to do at the new Kirkby Shopperdome. Who was it that thought this cheap plastic out-of-town monstrosity would be acceptable to the Everton fan base? Bill Kenwright should die of shame after giving this the OK. I have seen better designs made from old bog rolls and cornflake packets on Blue Peter than this piece of shite. David Blunkett isn't involved in stadium designs these days is he?

Well if this is what all you Yes voters voted for then you need locking up and certifiying. Why would any Evertonian want to go and watch the Blues play football in the middle of a shopping precint without shrivelling up with shame? It has to be a very early April fools gag. Not even Keith Wyness could hope to pull this one off could he?

The main arguement from the club about the relocation to Kirkby was the need to attract more fans through the turnstyles. The big spending corporate types will come flooding in filling up those lovely private boxes, they said. Then we will get richer and spend more money they said.....HA HA HA.

What kind of knobhead would drag clients out to a retail park in Knowsley for a football game when the capital of culture city center is bursting with amenities and of course LFC have a new ground there. Chasing after fool's gold is what Klondyke Kenwright is doing.

The only way our club can possibly survive after seeing this disaster zone is if this Kirkby deal gets called in for a goverment inquiry, which looks like will happen. Then we can only hope and pray that someone somewhere puts an end to this nonesense and it all goes tits up again. I would sooner the players chuck some jumpers down for goalposts on Stanley Park and play there rather than move the club to Knowsley's answer to St Johns Precint.

I was a bit sceptical about the Bestway Loop proposal when it was first put forward as a site but that now looks like the Nou Camp compared to what the club are offering its supporters. Please find me one person who likes these latest images of the new Goodison as I can't find a single one.

My disgust/horror when I first set eyes on these latest plans was soon calmed by the belief that this deal will probably fall through before Wyness can do any more damage. Tescos wont hang around forever waiting for Everton and the council to get themselves sorted out so we still have a chance.

Surely in this day and age, a club of Everton's size and stature should be delivering a much brighter vision of the future to the fans than this load of bollocks. Let Wigan, Derby, Bolton and all the rest of the two-bob clubs in England build replica out-of-town plastic shitholes but we dont wan't one.

We are Everton FC, FFS, founder members of the Football League and one of the oldest and most historical clubs in the world. Surely we should be reaching for a much better place than a Tesco carpark as our new home. It's just not good enough, is it?

Reader Comments

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John Lloyd
1   Posted 15/11/2007 at 14:49:36

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says it all mate, says it fucking all. But in case you dont get what I mean, I’ve popped this comment in about 4 threads today, this will be the last.

It looks shit.

I dont like it. Tescodome, souless, uninspired, bland, ikea?d....all correct.
Madejski, Pride Park, JJB, Reebok Stadium, Riverside. If you?ve been to any of them stadiums tell me thats what you want for Everton??

It looks shit
I?m not arsed about the politics, I?m gonna fight this tooth and nail. The location, the stadium...its all wrong. No-on, and I mean NO-ONE has come up with a list of proven guranteed positives that outweigh the negatives.

It looks shit.
It was said further up but United, Liverpool, Tottenahm, Arsenal, Newcastle all have excellent stadiums & none of them had to move very far or sell out so bad. We are as big as them so why are we?

It looks shite.
If the people in charge of this club cannot organise or convince this city of our importance & deliver us a stadium ina location we deserve then they should step aside before they are removed, simple as.

It looks shit.
Essex Blue
2   Posted 15/11/2007 at 15:02:26

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I just cant believe those images all my mates; gooners, spurs fans, mancs and red shite etc are laughin it up over this. What an embarassment to us as fans, as a club and to our image. What are they playin at?? Kenwright get back to your saturday job judging fairies on crap talent shows you heartless twat!
Terry Maddock
3   Posted 15/11/2007 at 15:10:37

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..Thank fuck for that Tony....I thought you were going to over react to an artists impression again....Oh did.

As with D.M and his "hoofball ,useless squad"...(TM)

Why not criticise the real finished article..
Seamus Murphy
4   Posted 15/11/2007 at 15:33:04

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Please god dont let this go ahead.
Greg Murphy
5   Posted 15/11/2007 at 15:40:39

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10/10 Tony.
Louis Huglin
6   Posted 15/11/2007 at 15:37:04

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Terry Maddock, Tony Marsh is clearly a man who is proud of his opinion and eager to share it. When positives are present, he is quick to praise, as he did last week. On the Kirkby issue? The vast majority of people on this board agree with Tony. I certainly do.

The artists impression you speak of was the initial shots we saw, of the new stadium out of context at night, no idea of its surroundings. Now we see it from Tesco’s perspective we see the real intention. Part of a huge retail park, there as a tool for attracting custom to Tesco. Fair play to Terry Leahy, he has come up with a brilliant business plan; his superstore there will be highly profitable because of Everton’s presence, and he has managed to dupe Billy Kenright and Keith Wyness into believing it is the only option for EFC.

I feel sick. My stomach has been churning all day thinking about this. I cannot believe that this is going to happen to the club I love, and have put so much of my time and money into. I do it not because of Everton being successful, as for all my life, until the last couple of years, I have supported a team struggling year on year against relegation. I do it because I love the club, the community, Goodison Park, and Everton’s place in the history of Liverpool. This move destroys everything. The history, the soul of the club is being ripped off and we move blindly into a period of nothing... losing our identity. We deserve more. I will fight this to the death - I will be sending letter after letter to the club, to anyone I know at the club, and I hope KEIOC can organise something that I can be a part of to show my disgust. Its all a load of bollocks - ignoring other options, ignoring the voice of the fans. Stinks of corruption in my opinion. I for one will not go to the stadium in Kirkby of we move there. I will continue to travel to away games, but thats where it ends. There won’t be any ’home’ games anymore.
Terry Maddock
7   Posted 15/11/2007 at 15:46:47

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Louis,,,I quote

Bill Kenwright should die of shame after giving this the OK. I have seen better designs made from old bog rolls and cornflake packets on Blue Peter than this piece of shite. David Blunkett isn’t involved in stadium designs these days is he?

Petty, childish...namecalling really...and both the night time impressions and the retail park impressions..are just that..No final design..yet..ideas and plans are still being looked at..they havent even applied for planning permission their are no plans..

All that is being shown is an outline for residents of Kirkby to look show them one of the ways the town centre could be redeveloped....

Yes Tony loves his way..
But he loves coming on here and sensationalising things even more..
How many seperate columns do we need saying the same thing..?

3 pictures..anda dodgy video...

" I feel sick, My stomach is churning"..etc etc..yes mine too over the gross over reaction to a couple of photo’s....

We currently play in one of the oldest...(sorry) THE stadium in the premiership...and you are "SICK" because you will be able to do your shopping after the match in future, after being able to actually see the whole pitch..go the loo..and get fed and watered in comfort...but STOP...NO..Theres a Tesco next door...Im not going there..but I will go to away games..its my principals..

..fed up with the lot of you..fuckin teams doin great and you had fuck all to cry about...
Mark Stone
8   Posted 15/11/2007 at 16:04:45

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The team is doing great but no one is moaning about that they?re moaning about the prospect of leaving the most historical football stadium in the country to move to a shithole in kirkby.
Louis Huglin
9   Posted 15/11/2007 at 16:07:12

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"We currently play in one of the oldest...(sorry) THE stadium in the premiership...and you are "SICK" because you will be able to do your shopping after the match in future, after being able to actually see the whole pitch..go the loo..and get fed and watered in comfort...but STOP...NO..Theres a Tesco next door...Im not going there..but I will go to away games..its my principals.."

I am not questioning your support for Everton FC but how the fuck can you disregard Goodison so totally? So what if its old! Thats what makes it what it is - it has all the history and the memories. I go to Goodison and I can think back to my great grandfather skipping synagogue on a Saturday to go and see Dixie Dean. I can think of the Eusebio - Pele confrontation, the only meeting or arguably the two greatest players the world’s ever seen. Countless more examples could be cited... Goodison IS Everton.

I am ok to leave, with a heavy heart, and even don’t mind the prospect of Kirkby as a location. I’d prefer the Loop, or somewhere similar, but Kirkby as a location isn’t all that terrible. It’s the design and the setting that outrage me. This will not be Everton any more, so much of the matchday experience will be lost. I want to go to the pub for a couple before, I want to walk down County Road, I want to feel the community atmosphere that is built into the bricks that make Goodison Park. And do you really think I want to come out of an Everton game and do my fucking groceries in Tesco?
Mark Stone
10   Posted 15/11/2007 at 16:10:12

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The place actually looks good in my opinion. It looks a million times better than Goodison - and it looks better than the initial Bestway pics I?ve seen. In my opinion though, that?s the not the point!

Goodison Park is the one of the most historical stadiums in the country and how it?s not a listed building I have no idea!

What is the stated cost to Everton of moving to Kirkby and what would be the immediate cost of renovating Goodison?
John Lloyd
11   Posted 15/11/2007 at 16:24:36

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Goodison Park has staged more top-flight football games than any other ground in the United Kingdom and was the only English club ground to host a semi-final at the 1966 FIFA World Cup. It was also the first English ground to have undersoil heating, the first to have two tiers on all sides and the first to have a three-tier stand. Goodison is the only stadium in the world that features a church in its grounds ? St Luke the Evangelist.

Just some of the records surrounding goodison, its noy just some old stadium its a football icon & Terry you dont fucking get it mate, protest all you want or try an take the high ground. But to go from a stadium which was innovative (for its time) and one of the best in the country until the last 20 years or so to what looks to be a outta town, bland, uninspired meccano tescodome is unacceptable mate.
Tony Marsh
12   Posted 15/11/2007 at 16:17:07

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Terry Maddocks I admire your Alamo siege mentality mate but this Tesco Kirkby stadium is not worth defending.
You say its only 3 photos and
and a dodgy video and its not the finished article.Well knowing Kenwright and the Everton board the way we do the photos and the video are probably showing the scheme in a better light than it will be in real life.What then? If the new Goodison is remotely like what we are being shown then we will be the laughing stock of Britain and many will turn thier backs and shun the place.This is not sensationalism but fact.We are all Evertonians but it appears some of us are more concerned with whats going on than others.Maybe some of us can see throught the bullshit a little better.The Echo have now decided to give a more balanced view on this issue after 2 years of backing the board and pouring cold water on the KEIOC campaign.The reason for this? KEIOC told the Echo if they dont get equal coverage to the club
on this issue then the plane will go up next time with a banner reading DONT BUY THE ECHO. Result Echo now gives KEIOC a better write up.From what I have been told BK is starting to have his doubts about this move in private though backing it publicly.The whole thing is a mess so how can you support it? You see Terry its all politics,Money and skullduggery and BK and KW are up to there necks in it.You follow these clowns if you want to but dont slag off others who refuse to be dupped.Kirkby is a non starter for many of us but its your choice to back the place so good look with your shopping/match going days out.
Tony Williams
13   Posted 15/11/2007 at 16:35:13

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Tony, you must have been made up when that dodgy video was released.

I can imagine Tont sitting by his PC, all fed up he has nothing to moan about and then "Gettin there" cue link to Toffeeweb and "away I go"

Only joking fella.............or am I? ;-)
Brian Waring
14   Posted 15/11/2007 at 16:38:17

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It’s heartbreaking to see where this famous and proud club of ours is heading.
Rob Hollis
15   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:16:25

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Brilliant business plan from Tesco because 50,000 people will watch the match and then do the weeks shopping before going home. Don’t make me laugh!What do you think the conspiracy is? It is a business deal. Alternatively we could have whipround after the next home game and pay for a stadium with the help of Liverpool Shitty Council.

You might not like it but Liverpool FC generate far more cash than us but they will be saddled with a horrible debt to build the new stadium. Kirby may not be perfect but we will not have to win the champions league every year to stay in business.
David Barks
16   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:17:24

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"It?s heartbreaking to see where this famous and proud club of ours is heading."

Really, a club that fought relegation for over a decade and hasn’t won a trophy since 95, hasn’t won the league in about 20 years. But now we are progressing in Europe, built a very good squad capable of getting into Europe for consecutive years in I don’t know how many decades and signing all these players to 5 year contracts, and could possibly be getting a brand new stadium in the middle of a completely redeveloped city center with financial assistance from that city council. That’s heart breaking to you, because it’s progress to me.
Paul Heery
17   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:12:36

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Just a couple of points:
Tony Marsh, how you can seriously say that your comments are ’not sensationalism, but fact.’? Here are some of those ’facts’:
’the photos and the video are probably showing the scheme in a better light than it will be in real life’.
’we will be the laughing stock of Britain’
’Maybe some of us can see throught the bullshit a little better’
’From what I have been told BK is starting to have his doubts about this move in private though backing it publicly’
’its all politics,Money and skullduggery and BK and KW are up to there necks in it’
’follow these clowns if you want to’
Thank God you didn’t resort to sensationalism.

Louis Huglin - we all love the club, we all supported it when it was fighting relegation, most of us prefer to be challenging for trophies, that’s the point, that’s why we need to move.
If this debate was about the design of the stadium it might be making some good points, but it’s not - it’s a chance for KEIOC to breathe life into their campaign - that’s a campaign that was rejected by a majority of Everton fans in a vote that none of our rivals would have had.
Gavin Cairns
18   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:13:23

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It looks shite.
Declan Brown
19   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:18:30

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Have to agree with everything you said Tony, the first paragraph hit the nail on the head. Brian Waring, you also summed up my thoughts with that one sentence.

I work for Tescos (part time as a 2nd job), when i seen the new store / carpark next to our new stadium i was nearly sick. I just can’t stomach the reality of that happening.

What the hell is Kenwright playing at? If he’s blue and knows how we feel how can he even think of accepting this? Going through a Tescos car park to go to our Mecca?

I’m praying with every ounce of energy this falls through. I’d rather stay at a falling down Goodison or go to the Loop than this.

Yes we need a new stadium, we have no money either, but a stadium beside a Tescos carpark? Come on Bill, seriously, catch yourself on. Waken up. No way.

It’s an embarrassment to our club and it’s glorious history and traditions. Brian Labone, Alex Young and Dixie Dean will be rolling in their graves.
Ste Birkett
20   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:26:06

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Tony’s negativity usually makes me cringe but there are some spot on points within this one:

- Location is shoddy. To think that corporate events would be taken out of a newly renovated city centre into some random suburb seems naive at best, destructive at worst.

- Retail Park. I voted against the move but at least hoped when the yes crew won out that the vision would be something away from the Wigan/Bolton we have a vision of being right on Tesco’s car park....!! Can you really blame our gobshite neighbours for laughing and waving carrier bags at us with this scenario looming large?

- Nil Satis Nisi Optimum...? This is far from only the best as a vision, and frankly feels like it should be one of the last chance saloon options if everything else is100% exhausted. Completely uninspiring as a vision for the future of a Grand Old Team.

The more this develops, the more I want to pretend I’m an outraged resident of Kirby marching against my changing surroundings!
Harry Meek
21   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:38:19

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I voted against Kirkby although it would be easier for me to get to from the 57.As I have posted elsewhere,the Club’s finances look in such a parlous state that I’d be amazed if they can even find the ’in’ money for this shithole.
Just realise it’s far from a done deal-Tesco came badly unstuck with a similar scheme in my neighbourhood in Worcester.And once it’s called in by the Minister , anything can happen!
Terry Maddock
22   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:52:35

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"KEIOC told the Echo if they dont get equal coverage to the club
on this issue then the plane will go up next time with a banner reading DONT BUY THE ECHO. Result Echo now gives KEIOC a better write up."

Are they a group of powerful political lobbyists?...a bunch of gangsters...

"This is not sensationalism but fact"

What facts,,,you dont want to move to dont like the stadium impressions....

Come on Tony...I can understand the History of Goodison.(I,ve been going there nearly 40 years)...and I think if it were a stately home..then all your do gooders would want it saved...But we cant do a Wembley...we cant even do a St James’s..

I do admire your passion Tony..but your conspiracy theory shit lets down nearly all of your often valid arguements..
Dont forget suggested that..amongst other things..B.K had the Electoral Reform Society on the payroll...That the Fernandes signing(well non signing) was actually propaganda.....

The only reason the Echo has given , as you put it... a more even view towards alternatives to that its only now that anything remotely resembling an alternative has been put forward...

Its not politics Tony ,,its MONEY...without it no team, no stadium..nowhere...

So we find a partner, in this case Tesco.

They make do we..they get a bigger supermarket, we get a new stadium for less than the going rate..and Kirkby gets somewhere better than "THE TOWNEY"...

We are not ever..going to get an Emirates, or an Old Trafford..or Even a £400,000000 Analfield...Not unless an Ambrabovitch jumps out of the woodwork..

We will"sadly"..get the best we can ..for the money we have...And that is a FACT.

So protest, use your voice ..make your opinion known...
But unless you can show the people that have control a viable, affordable,realistic.alternative within a workable time frame...then Kirkby here we come....

I’ve said on many occasions..if it was up to me..We would redevelop Goodison..make it once again the finest stadium in the country...but we cant..all your Architects with there ideas,all your financial wizards that come on with how affordable and easy it will be...its all pie in the sky...even without the new stadium..we are a club in about 90-100 mill of debt...we wait any longer..we need to move forward..The shite will have debt touching 600 million by the time the new Analfield is finished..Two seasons ouside the top 4..and thats there interest payments champions league players transfers...The New Leeds utd...

We will have a good stadium..not a great one..but it wont be the sticky back plastic bog roll vision you have...and it will increase revenue...Cahill, Arteta,Howard,Lescott, Johnson.Vaughn,Anichibe,Baines, Pienaar.Yakubu..and god only knows who else..will all be playing there there peak..what is wrong with Tesc being next door?....whats wrong with more parking..more facilities..a better team..
And 2 frozen meat feast pizz’s for 1.99?
Richard Osborne
23   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:46:50

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Amazing! I agree with Tony!!!!

It isn’t about ’yes’ or ’no’ now, its a question of quality. Collectively, all we as Evertonians ask for, is quality, whether on the pitch or off it we just want to have a club to be proud of.

Now on the whole, I think we have that - a team that is truly begining to look like it can compete on several fronts - and a board that seeme to have a sensible eye on the future. However, after seeing these latest impressions, I can’t help feeling that the whole thing is being thrown together with an ’any old shite will do’ attitude.

If the board - not just BK - think that Evertonians will accept that in the long run then I believe they are very much mistaken. I don’t care about the ’yes’ vote, as I’ve said this goes far beyond.

Why were these images not released before the vote? The original ones looked quite appealing, the newest release is just appalling.

It seems to me, that Everton are accepting second best in order to achieve a long-term goal in the shortest possible (and cheapest) time frame. Surely, if the past, present and future of this club is to be truly upheld, there must be more to life than Kirkby.
Jeff Leahey
24   Posted 15/11/2007 at 17:13:42

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For the first time ,iv a doubt this is gonna happen,theres no way deep down that Bill will think this is anyway good enough for this club ,in a nut shell its shite. End of .Id be havin sleepless nights if i were him ,and iv a sneaking suspicion hes having grave reservations about this,as a scouser ,mad blue, and chairman of this historic football .I would love to think that in spite of the lack of money,he is thinking maybe just maybe there is another way .Just wait till you go past Stanley park and see wots going to be built there and we"ll be sick ,sick to the bottom of our guts.So as red colleague said to me the other day "I cant wait to see the lot of ya, piss off and watch ya football in a retail park out the fuckin way" i think that just about sums it up really.
Tony Marsh
25   Posted 15/11/2007 at 18:30:33

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Terry Maddocks do you really think Gillette and Hicks are stupid.Do you honestly believe the Glaziers at Man Utd
dont know what they are doing.Is Randy Lerner a fool.How about the Bent Thia owner at Man City?These people are all Billionaires mate and they see and understand what the bigger picture is in this country as far as football is concerned.Soon the elite clubs from England ,Spain ,Italy,Germany etc will form a European super league that will dwarf anything thats gone before it in revenue terms.It will be a global enterprise so powerfull that Mickey Mouse outfits like Eufa and FIFA will be powerless to stop them.The money men will walk right through these tin pot organisations and football will be changed for ever.Thats why all these Foriegn Billionaires want in to the game especially in this country which already has mass world wide appeal.£600 million debts will be nothing once the brand is franchised and European Super league games are being played and not just shown on TV world wide.Football as money spinning enterprise is still in its infancy.FFS lad you must think these Billionaire dudes all won the lotto to get rich and have no buisness acumen at all..We are being left behind big time.BK is a fraud.Evertonian yes but a waste of space when it comes to getting Everton FCs snout in the trough. Football as we knew it is dead and if we dont get our shit together so will we be.10 years and the Premier League will be a found child hood memory all the big boys will be gone and we will be left in Kirkby playing the likes of Middlesboro and Reading.Scarey scenario but it will happen but hey we can always get some />bargains off the whoops counter on match days.
david conners
26   Posted 15/11/2007 at 18:39:54

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it looks shite.
Gerard Madden
27   Posted 15/11/2007 at 19:03:44

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Well whinge ’n whine all you want but Evertonians arn’t daft - only 28% of eligable voters voted ’no’ and only a couple o’ dozen (not thousands) protested a few weeks later despite all the publicity the ’protest’ was given in the lead up to it by all the sites and the local media.

The nearer we’re getting to the finalization of the Kirkby project the more hysterical some are becoming and the only blues whining over the new artists impressions are the ones who have been whining since the idea was first out into the open.

The fact is our new ground is 50,000 (Extendable to 60,000) and the site itself can handle a potential 75,000 seater if we ever need to expand to that level at some future point - GP or the ’loop’ simply can’t handle numbers like that according to both EFC and LFC and I believe them over a small cash ’n carry.
Tony Miller
28   Posted 15/11/2007 at 19:05:14

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Got to say not exactly exited about these views. i hope the stadium scenes are better.

I won’t comment further as others have already done so better than I could.

However must say that the last rant by Tony Marsh about tin the future their being no Premier League but a European super league of teams owned by billionairs?

If that is what the future holds football would be over not Everton and in that case I would rather be in a shit hole anywhere watching the blues playing teams such as Middlesborough. I ain’t selling my soul.
Brian Law
29   Posted 15/11/2007 at 19:24:32

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Alan Stubbs should be ashamed of himself for that cringeworthy performance in that video.

It looks shite.

No to Kirkby
Steve Taylor
30   Posted 15/11/2007 at 19:23:53

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Serious question.

If Goodison was depicted with Artists impressions - would the run down boozer, the old chippy, the boarded up shops, the primary school & the terraced houses, look like utopia????

So we’re going to have retail outlets next door - who gives a shit?

I suppose a better option was to be surrounded on 3 sides by a dual carriageway????
Lee Smith
31   Posted 15/11/2007 at 19:33:17

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Just a quick one, the Wagstaff Design links to the "promotional" videos have been removed.......mmmmm......must be due to all the rave reviews they have been getting perhaps?
Janik Jutapiaen
32   Posted 15/11/2007 at 18:55:07

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It?s mutch to play at old Goodison with smaller growdbetter even the shadow of new RS stadium.
History, passion and pride are the things what brings life in EFC.

And who the f is saying that there?s no money to regenerate Goodison. Remember ManU at the early 90?s. They got a good team and some success. They didn?t waste their money (from growing matchday incomes, better sponsorship deals, more TV -revenues, etc.), they invested their money (of course loans too) to redevelope Old Trafford.

And there?s Gunners too, similar story.

It could be possible in very near future if our team is playing well, maybe with some new players.

Why ffs our board is so desperate and are going to wolfs mouth without thinking better??

If the current board and owners can?t bring us better future than crappy KIrkby based Reebok Stadium, then local EFC supporters should start their campaign against the move. It s crystal clear that KEIOC has burnt too many bridges and can?t get organized the opposition against move. Threre must be good (professional?) leaders in Liverpool who could get people behind them against the Great Horror Park...

It? sad to watch all of this from FInland too.
And yes I must say..... I?ll fly to our home games (aaarrggghh, almost a kopite..............................)
Seany Rico
33   Posted 15/11/2007 at 19:33:36

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Spot on mate, what a fucking joke!!!! We all know that we need a new stadium to compete with the so called big,boys but i think we are as a club a fucking giant!!!

Tesco couldnt give a stuff if we were playing in the confrence as long as they got 50,000 muppets that buy a packet of fags from its 24 hour shops!!

Surely there is better options out there??? as football fans we want to see good stadiums where there are great atmospheres but i just couldnt imagine after a bignight in europe walking out of that stadium and meet my grandparents doing their local shopping would just put a bit of a dampner on things....

Tony i can only hope that in the next couple of months you start a campaign to get these to fat fuckers OUT of OUR CLUB! Thats right OUR CLUB!! they should be hung by the balls for this disgrace.
Paul Columb
34   Posted 15/11/2007 at 20:11:35

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There is no validity in my mind to the arguments popping up comparing Goodison to Kirkby. The point is, that relative to the era, Goodison had always been at the cutting edge of stadia innovation but has fallen sadly behind. In contemplating a new ground, Nil Satis Nisi Optimum.......not what’s on show and NOT moving away form a renaissance city to line the Tesco tills. IT’S NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN FOR THE WELLBEING OF THE CLUB.....WE’RE BEING TAKEN FOR A RIDE.
Rupert Sullivan
35   Posted 15/11/2007 at 20:20:43

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Although I agree with Terry Maddock that Tony´s article is childish and somewhat petty, I have to agree with pretty much everything Tony Marsh has said. - I have never believed for one moment that this move was best for EFC and the manner in which it has been approached has been utterly shameful - and I fully support any non-violent or vitriolic attempt to kybosh this plan.

I do have to ask though - who actually voted yes, and whom amongst those now is having second thoughts... and why didn´t you see this coming.

Sorry - I know that is quite a slight but for me this was always going to be the outcome.
Connor Rohrer
36   Posted 15/11/2007 at 20:16:05

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Good post Tony. I am dredding it to be honest and If there was something I could do to stop it I would. Everyone I know voted NO so I can not underststand how the vote was in favour of Kirkby.

It would be good if we where actually progressing fastly on the pitch but the fact of the matter is we are not. We will lose fans and don't anyone say differently. We wouldn?t even fill it anyway and with the fans also not going to Kirkby we will look a show in our 55,000 seater stadium.

Absolutely gutted.
Robert Carney
37   Posted 15/11/2007 at 21:14:05

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As apologist?s go, Madden and Maddock are up there with the worst of them.

I do not know which makes me more sick, the images off the cheap stadium or the continuing attempts to sell this extremely poor deal on behalf of certain board members of EFC. Why do they not contribute with real facts like Tom Hughes and his ilk?

More and more I see the demise of Everton, and the future of a Middlesborough or Bolton graveyard.

If they really researched the forrtunes of the above mentioned they would be on the NO side
Karl Masters
38   Posted 15/11/2007 at 21:22:49

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My worst fears are already being realised.

Regardless of the seemingly hemmed in location, The Loop Stadium Design has far greater appeal than this ’chuck it up quick’ design. Cheap and nasty with no class. But then again, what else do you expect from a supermarket chain? All functon and no form. Why can’t we build the Loop stadium in Kirkby if we really must go there?

For Christ’s sake, Kenwright: Wake up and see what you are doing! There has to be a better way.
Mark Perry
39   Posted 15/11/2007 at 22:13:17

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Its three pictures and a video for petes sake, not the finished article. Get a grip, anyone would think they are going to make us play in Guantanamo.

We saw the origional artists impressions and I liked them, as did the vast majority of others as we voted YES.

The new trainiung facility is state of the art, one of the best around and I hope and expect that the stasium will match the training facilities.

Tony Marsh and the rest like nothing more than moaning as they have a vendeta against DM, Bill and the board, and anyone else who happens to disagree with their blinkerd view of the world in general and EFC in particular.

Strange how Tony is oh so quiet when things are going well, and when there is a sniff of controversy he appears like one of thye horsemen of the apocolipse
Connor Rohrer
40   Posted 15/11/2007 at 22:53:11

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Mark Perry, Tony obviously is very passionate about the Kirkby situation as are alot of Evertonians. He has every right to express his views whether there negative or positive.
Steve Taylor
41   Posted 15/11/2007 at 22:45:13

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Why the outrage that there’s a supermarket next door?

The loop idea was even worse - surrounded by a ring road FFS! even talk of one of the stands overhanging the road!

Be honest Tony - if this design was on the existing site - with the compromise of a retail park next door - you’d take it. This is about the fact that it’s in Kirkby & the notional boundary issue - admit it.

The thought of the shite building the Dunkin Donuts arena in Stanley Park apparently makes it worse - why? Who gives a fuck that the shite are about to embark on a project that’ll leave them with a debt of £550M (& rising) once the Yanks have consolidated the loans they took out to buy them (which they said they wouldn’t do) into the overall borrowing (& you call Kenwright?)

Is this what you’d prefer for EFC????<
Brendan McLaughlin
42   Posted 15/11/2007 at 21:46:39

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Let’s be honest. Irrespective of how we feel about moving from Goodison or Liverpool city does look like fucking shit.
Michael Tracey
43   Posted 15/11/2007 at 22:55:34

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The direct line from BKs office to G Madden must be working again. The whole proposal is a big pile of shit. How much are getting paid Gerry to keep writing the same crap over and over? Tony Marsh spot on mate, I agree with everything you have written. It looks shite!
Paul Dennis
44   Posted 15/11/2007 at 23:26:53

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Wyness are you reading these comments. We don?t fucking want it.
Jimmy Fearns
45   Posted 15/11/2007 at 23:13:44

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If you voted for this then get down on your knees and beg forgiveness from all blues past and present because its shit and you know it,
Roy Kroft
46   Posted 16/11/2007 at 00:14:40

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’Tony Marsh is clearly a man who is proud of his opinion and eager to share it.’ And there in lies the problem, Mr Marsh in his countless published articles never tires of forcing his opinion on us. If it’s not the ground move, it’s the ground design, if not it’s having the wool pulled over our eyes, with mysterious loans, overdrafts. Or it’s the evil kiniving board. No wait a minute it’s Moyes, Moyes out, It’s the football we play, who’d pay good money to watch that? I’ll bet you have the doors locked and curtains closed in your house Tony, because someone might be watching and monitoring you, just in case you discover a conspiracy that’s actually based on reasoned fact. (I know, it’s highly unlikely).

Never mind, when the Kirkby move goes ahead, then hopefully you’ll find another hobby to rant about away from football. Ever considered politics?
Sam Avery
47   Posted 16/11/2007 at 00:41:05

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I’ve just looked at the 2 YouTube videos - one for the stadium and one for the Tesco’s next to it. Both videos look so unnappealing to most blues I’m sure.

Then I (foolishly) had a quick peek at the RS’s new stadium (also on Youtube) and the difference is just unbearable. Add to this the fact that they’re only moving 800 yards from where they are now.

It’s so galling. Like we don’t hate them enough already.
Gerard Madden
48   Posted 16/11/2007 at 00:46:30

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Michael Tracey - You’re yet another ’no’er that types as though he represents the majority opinion of blues - the majority of blues in your mind of course. Now let me guess, don’t tell me - EVERY blue you know hates the move? LOL Need I remind you of the ballot outcome again? Need I remind you how many turned out for the protest again? No I don’t think you’ll want reminding somehow...

My favourable view of our Kirkby move is shared by most other blues as evidenced by the vote and ’protest’. Time for some to face up to the facts methinks...
Gav Jones
49   Posted 16/11/2007 at 01:11:01

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I’m not trying to suggest that there’s some huge conspiracy and we were lied to, obviously in the summer there were more yes voters than there were no.

But only a couple in this thread have admitted to it and even in the summer there weren’t many who said they were planning on doing so. I know I voted no, as did most people I know and sit near.
And I bet a lot of those who voted yes or were unsure are completely against it now.
I know it’s probably futile but there must be something we can do about this - an online petition or something? Even if you were denied the vote and you’ve got no season ticket or whatever, people could write what Everton means to them alongside their name, and why they don’t want this. Enough names and it’d get seen by Kenwright, all it would take is some coverage in the Echo or something to get taken seriously. Surely it’s worth a try? Or am I just clutching at straws and being naive?

Apologies to those who voted yes and feel that people are trying to speak for the majority of Everton fans when they speak against this like I am now. It just feels like too many people are against what’s happening.
Gerard Madden
50   Posted 16/11/2007 at 01:46:04

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Gav - ’But only a couple in this thread have admitted to it’ - There’s been a majority ’no’ position on all the forums for months, that’s not surprising, the ’no’s in any kind of referendum campaign always shout the loudest, I was in Australia for a few months in 1999 at the time of the Republic vs Monarchy referendum, the ’no’ campaign was so much more visible and people admitting they were pro-monarchist (A ’foreign’ monarch residing 12,000 miles away) was almost seen as tantamount to being a ’homo’ or a ’traitor’ LOL. The opinion polls were pointing heavily to a republican victory - come the results though and in the privacy of voting booths, those that wanted retention of the monarchy won hands down. You wait and see if this country gets a referendum on the EU - the ’no’s will shout the loudest in that campaign, they’ll lead in the polls but when it comes to the actual vote...

It will take time and I know some ’no’s see it as therapy typing down their concerns on small messageboards and forums but I suspect most of the remaining ’no’s will come with the rest of us to our new ground - i’m sure of it. Don’t forget - those that didn’t come with us in 1892 became the RS - what an incentive to come with us that is! :)
Steve Sweeney
51   Posted 16/11/2007 at 02:07:54

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Looks like a big Warrington RL ground.

This move will be a disaster for Everton FC.
The longer BK holds on to the club the worse it will be.
Tony has hinted at a European League, this will happen.
Billionaire Investors do not invest because they are Fans and No they don?t
Build Stadiums to please their fans but to make money .No matter what their spin doctors say. Why did Newcastle choose to develop St James Park rather than move to Gateshead or build next to the shopping complex outside of the city? Because the club was run by a businessman who by the way was also a fan.
For one minute do you think that Hicks and Gillette would have considered moving out to Kirkby for a free stadium?

They are going to Borrow the Money why, because they plan to form a super rich League, The money to be made from worldwide TV rights is mega- the audience in South America is huge, not to count the Hispanic population in the States.
Kenwright is non league compared to these guys, but the sad git will continue to hold on to his beloved Everton.
Hold on until he can make a few more million, when he should be looking to make Hundreds of Million.
Brian Wolf
52   Posted 16/11/2007 at 03:00:53

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I don’t give two hoots about what Marshy and his KEIOC friends think. It’s done, it’s over with, we’re moving, get over it. Either join us fans at Kirkby or fuck off. Your opinion is meaningless to me.
Neil Pearse
53   Posted 16/11/2007 at 03:53:38

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You all don’t want it. I get it. I sympathise. I didn’t like the video either.

But what are you proposing as an alternatiuve? You talk as if we have the money to build an Emirates. But we don’t. So what are you proposing? Being against something is easy. What are you for, and how are we going to get it?

The reason we are heading to Kirkby is not because Kenwright or Wyness or Stubbs or anyone else thinks it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It is because we don’t have the money for anything else. That is the reality.

In my opinion this reality can only be changed by a rich bilionaire buying Everton. And there is no sign of anyone at the moment. And the idea that Bill is somehow ’stopping them’ is bullshit. He couldn’t and, as in all the other cases, a big bidder would go public anyway.

Our problem is that we do not have the money for anything else. After all this time, any serious discussion of this subject has to start here.
John Beesley
54   Posted 16/11/2007 at 07:56:57

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Brian Wolf

’I don?t give two hoots about what Marshy and his KEIOC friends think. It?s done, it?s over with, we?re moving, get over it. Either join us fans at Kirkby or fuck off. Your opinion is meaningless to me.’

So anybody against this move and doesn’t want to go to Kirkby is not one of ’us fans’.
I’ve supported Everton for over 50 years, been a season ticket holder since 1967 and live nearer to the proposed new stadium than Goodison but I won’t be going to Kirkby so I obviuosly can’t be one of ’us fans’.

Will a lot of ’us fans’ still be going in 50 years time?
Paul OHanlon
55   Posted 16/11/2007 at 08:52:23

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Brilliant. Once again the stadium issue has split the fans, just when the feel good factor had returned to the club.

Doesn’t this alone prove it’s not right for us? I don’t remember any other proposed stadium move causing so much uproar?
Richard Grisdale
56   Posted 16/11/2007 at 09:59:24

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Couldnt agree more with article...... I voted yes but looked back now wish i hadnt.... Y are the shops so close to the ground? Y where these photos not shown months ago when the vote was given to us? Goin to watch everton is goin be like goin to Bolton, no character, no atmosphere..... cant beleive these photos.....
Michael Tracey
57   Posted 16/11/2007 at 09:52:22

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Gerry, Gerry my man! What utter crap talking about the Australian referendum vote. If you actually knew the real reason why it wasn’t voted in is because of the question not the actual views of the voters. It was one of John Howards little election winning loaded questions that he is famous for. Also 75% had to vote yes for the vote to win. So under your pathetic attempt at an example the Kirkby vote would not of got over the line if you want to use the Republican vote as an example. Any other stupid examples you want to bring up! Face it the New Stadium is crap and you have backed yourself into a very small and dark corner that even though you want to admit it you can’t. And by the way did I mention that THE STADIUM LOOKS SHITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gerard Madden
58   Posted 16/11/2007 at 10:14:12

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Mickey - regardless of any special thresholds a vote for a republic had to pass the fact remains they were the favourites for months beforehand - a majority of the population was expected to easily win, on the day of the vote when people actually cast their ballot (instead of telling pollsters the way they were going to vote) they voted in favour of retention of Queen Bess.

Go to any pub near our ground on Match Day - I suspect that’s were most of the remaining ’no’s get their ’Everyone I know is against’ bit from then obviously you’ll get NO ONE in favour of the move, go to most walk-ups in Walton and they’ll say they’re against the move - thankfully Everton attracts a far bigger number than merely a thousand or two who go to nearby pubs and walk-up...
David Kiely
59   Posted 16/11/2007 at 10:51:03

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Spot on, Tony Marsh.

Get back to the drawing board Kenwright and Wyness. That hovel in a retail park has knocked the stuffing out of even the surrender monkeys who voted Yes back in August. It?s a tasteless design anyway, but nestled in with the horrible retail units we all strive to clear our minds of in a our leisure time it?s also a sick joke perpetrated on the club?s loyal fanbase......the fanbase that kept this club in the topflight when the likes of Wyness and Earl were busy going bankrupt.

Chris Riley
60   Posted 16/11/2007 at 12:12:35

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Appologies if this has already been raised, it is directed at the people who voted yes. What would have been your feelings towards a stadium on the wirral?

Would this have been right for the club, after all we need to move or so you keep telling us.............

This is a board so desperate not to miss out on a supposed gravy train, after they fucked up by not securing the kings dock!!!! where would we be now with a top class ground that we were all behind, in the heart of the city? Thank you, you inept twats you should have gone a long time ago!
Pat Beesley
61   Posted 16/11/2007 at 12:45:04

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I don’t want you all to die of shoch but, for once, I agree 100% with Tony Marsh. Never thought I would see the day when I said that but I do.

Isn’ t there something we can do. Its all right some of the contributors saying "!wait until you see the finished article, you may feel different or it may not be as bad as the video leads us to believe" but surely by then it will be too late.

In the immortable words of the Beatles....
"Help, we need somebody, help"
Neil Pearse
62   Posted 16/11/2007 at 12:29:42

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I have no issues with a continued passionate debate on such a critical subject - the future of the club FFS! But I do wonder if there actually is more disagreement here than there appears to be given all the passion.

So let me say first: I voted YES. But let me get to my first ’big agreement’: all NO voters and I believe (nearly?) all YES voters would much prefer to get a tip-top stadium in the centre of Liverpool. Who wouldn’t?? So we are not arguing here about whether Kirkby is what we all really want, because obviously it isn’t. We all want the same. Let’s call it... er... ’King’s Dock’, to give it a name. (I strongly suspect Kenwright, Wyness and Stubbs would prefer King’s Dock too...)

So what are we arguing about? I believe (nearly?) all NO voters and all YES voters believe that we have to leave GP so that we can generate more revenues so that we can survive as a top club. So that’s not the issue either.

So nearly all of us agree: we have to leave GP, but Kirkby is by no means a perfect option. The argument in the end has to be about: is Kirkby our best available option given that we have to leave GP?

There is lots of room for disagreement here! But, for example, it is not because crazy YES voters think that Kirkby is the Emirates. It is because they think we have to move to survive, and they do not see any other physically and financially viable options given the amount of money the club actually currently has. Or indeed (I assume) because crazy NO voters are happy to to sit and rot in GP (they, like YES voters, want to move to a better stadium too).

As a YES voter I am dismayed but not very surprised by the latest mock-ups. But I still don’t see where there is any other better option for us - and ’better’ means: we like it more and we can move there in the not too distant future and we can afford it. Where is it?

I think that the only way we could all be happy (yes, Evertonian NOs and Evertonian YESs alike) is if a billionaire buys our club and funds a top stadium in the centre of Liverpool (on pretty reliable sources £400-500 million is the going rate).

Frankly, I do not fully understand why we have not been bought (although the prospect of having to fork out millions for a new stadium might have something to do with it). I do know that it is not because Kenwright is stopping a buyer. He can hardly stop someone bidding for the shares (he doesn’t own them all for a start). And we see from numerous other cases that big bidders tend to go public in bidding for football clubs the way they do in bidding for other companies (verify by reading the front page of the Financial Times and the back page of any tabloid).

One strategy is to ’sit tight in GP and hope a rich new owner comes along’. Not crazy, but I don’t personally favour it because it is highly risky. If the new owner does NOT come along, then we are stuck in GP and financially steadily going down the plughole. Kirkby is not perfect by any means, but in my view it is a lot better than this in securing the future of our club.

To me the debate has to come down to: can we find a better option than Kirkby? And I really do think that comes down to finding a richer owner than Kenwright. Kirkby is actually a pretty good option for us given the money we have. I like probably all of us wish we had more. But wishing does not make it so.
63   Posted 16/11/2007 at 13:20:01

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Has anyone actually seen the full plans yet, by that I mean an overhead view of the site plan ?? Then we will be able to see the distance between the shopping centre and the ground.

Those pictures dont look very realistic to me, theres no way anyone would build a supermarket 10 metres from a football ground..

Isnt there an exhibition on in Kirby as we write ??
ian a
64   Posted 16/11/2007 at 14:36:02

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I too am not overly keen on the new stadium, but as some posters on this thread have said, its kinda getting old now and I too have moved on and excepted it! I’m enjoying what the team are doing at the mo and for me the stadium is way down my list of priorities at present. Yes I’d like a massive world beating stadium in the place where goodison once sat, or indeed anywhere close, but it’s just not gonna happen. COYB!
Terry Maddock
65   Posted 16/11/2007 at 14:06:18

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1) Tony.....Yes I do believe Gillette and Hicks are stupid..they have ran their American and Canadian sports franchises into the ground..They believed a new ground would cost them about 250 mill and that if they gave the waiter 60 mill he would win the league..

2) Robert Carney..bypassing your insults...If you actually do research teams such as Bolton, Boro,,even will see that their fortunes, crowds and revenue have all grown since their ground moves...

3) Neil Pearse...
Spot you say the whole fanbase would grab with both hands a luxury 500mill 60,000 seater stadium in the city centre...yes and No voters alike( well maybe all bar Marshy,he,d find something wrong with it)...BUT...we can afford it..

THATS A FACT..the truth, indisputable..I didnt talk to some guy in a pub who knows somebody who’s sister told him cos her boyfriend works for wynesses aunties mate.,!

And ....THE PICTURES ARE ALL ARTISTs IMPRESSIONS...we dont know how close the ground will be to Tesco...we dont know what shape the ground will long..they are all just ideas....Yet people are screeching..Im not going there...! Oh its horrible..its too close to the shops...lets put it next to a pub a school and a bookies.!...OMG..only 1000 car parking spaces..whats wrong with the 60 we have now...

But..guess what...It does not EXIST...

Its a all probability nothing like what the real thing will be...

And then of favourite..SOULLESS... On my travels last year..I included the Reebok and the Riverside..and Ewood my away I can assure you..the Everton end was far from any of those grounds...Its the fans you see..not the bricks and mortar...

Lines such as..I cant believe I will have to walk thru Tesc’s car park to get to the ground....??????????

But you are happy to park in Gala Bingo’s carpark.....Oh the shame...




Right I,ll stop shouting now.......
Dutch Schaffaer
66   Posted 16/11/2007 at 14:49:13

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Typical Tony Marsh, things are going so well on the field that he has to find something new to complain about.

Wouldn’t it be nice just once to have a positive posting from Tony Marsh.

Just once, I’d like a nice positive piece but as usual moaning Marsh chooses to focus on the negative.

Sure the stadium debate is important but surely the great form and wonderful Euro campaign is worth mentioning?

Some people just love to moan.
Ben Howard
67   Posted 16/11/2007 at 14:47:50

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It looks shite!
Perry Umbown
68   Posted 16/11/2007 at 15:12:14

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It looks shite!

Tony Marsh
69   Posted 16/11/2007 at 15:37:06

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Ah me old mate Dutch Shaffer is on the attack again.The last time we heard from you it was when you were telling us all what a dude Yakubu was.Well a couple of goals later and a few man of the match/>performances under the belt dont you look silly.No one takes any notice of you any way Butch.
70   Posted 16/11/2007 at 16:04:21

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I was all for this originally but it looks absolute shite.

Kings Dock looked amazing!

We may never move again so why not get this one right. I’d rather we stayed where we are and saved up so we could move somewhere decent. Even if that means staying still with our league position for a while.

Who in their right mind is going to take clients there? I certainly wouldn’t.

Terry Maddock
71   Posted 16/11/2007 at 16:33:38

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The artists impressions of Kings Dock looked amazing.....They could draw you pictures of the new Wembley..stick an Everton club badge on the front...and you will still get people saying its shite..(you know who you are)...but again it never existed..just an artists impression...
Tony Marsh
72   Posted 16/11/2007 at 16:51:44

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Terry whats wrong with you lad FFS.The Kings Dock would of been amazing regardless of looks due to its location.Name me a better site in this city
that can compare to were the Echo Arena now stands.EFC would of been the focal point for millions of people every year when they were in the vicinty.
Argue your point but please donr try and rubbish the Kings Dock site mate its foolish.
Phill Shipy
73   Posted 16/11/2007 at 17:24:47

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I feel sick when I see those glossy images and vids. Im not overstating this either, I really do feel sick in the pit of my stomach.
d. conners
74   Posted 16/11/2007 at 18:18:03

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it looks shite.
Steve M
75   Posted 16/11/2007 at 18:06:04

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We live in a world of spin, We all know that - I thought the master plan was make the stadium look ok but not great then - yes - a better design and were all happy & proud - this is heading the other way, its looking worse and worse - shameful - I know we need something new - we really do but this is, Boro, Derby, Bolton, Stoke, MK Dons, Swansea type shite - please no.
tony gee
76   Posted 16/11/2007 at 18:54:28

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The Kirkby project will defo go to committee after a refusal and will never happen...

the red tape will tangle up the farce for years to come....

viva Goodison for ever...!!

Alan Wilks
77   Posted 16/11/2007 at 19:39:27

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Here, here
78   Posted 16/11/2007 at 17:53:31

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Spot on Tony.
Ground,Location.Infact everything about the whole deal is shite.
Born and bred in Kirkby,supported EFC all my life(fiirst match 1969).
No ones mentioned the possibility of crowd trouble before or after games.I for one will stop any of my family going to Tescos on match days.Hope Knowley C.C also look into this.
david taylor
79   Posted 16/11/2007 at 19:46:05

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lets face it.. irrelevant of whether we are for or against Kirkby, the blues will make a pigs ear of the whole idea and it won’t happen....

but on a serious note.. this site really winds me up... and i know it winds alot of other people up too, pure indulgence on negativity.... the site shud be called ’i love moaning about things that aren’t even worth moaning’ (and i don’t mean the ground move)... what happened to the idea where everyone acknowledges that we aren’t perfect but don’t get hung up on it and try to actually ENJOY supportin the blues, instead of enduring it.... we all have our gripes and annoyances supporting our blues but thats the best thing about supporting the blues.. we are in it together and we shud stand together and show everyone we are one and proud to be one... we are the greatest family on earth and despite what a ridiculous amount of people on here believe we are actually a very well respected club, with well respected owners/directors/ceo, a well run club with a well respected and excellent manager and a very very good group of young enthusiastic players who have formed (with great help from moyes) a very tight team who will run through walls for each other.....

i’m sorry if i have not portrayed my feelings very clearly, i have alot to get off my chest about this site... i just wish i had the words to do it!

forever blue.
Ray Said
80   Posted 16/11/2007 at 20:27:22

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Good post Tony.
When i saw the pics I thought it was an advert for Legoland!

Is this what we have come to;a prefab in the sticks? How the mighty have fallen!
Look at Arsenal’s new ground or the RS plans and compare this cackpile to that.

Even the size is pathetic- all this fucking around and turmoil amongst the fans for an extra 10,000 seats and a couple of extra boxes.

What a way to run a business-Liverpool is being regenerated so lets fuck off out of it-thats showing real business skills.
Sack the Juggler
81   Posted 16/11/2007 at 21:00:29

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Keith wants a stadium that can fit 75,000 - great, so do I but by placing it in the middle of nowhere he’s never going to fill it.

If it was in the middle of the city, or at least near it, we can all reach it easily, and 75,000 might start to look too small....
David Kiely
82   Posted 16/11/2007 at 20:51:55

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Neil Pearse wrote: "As a YES voter I am dismayed but not very surprised by the latest mock-ups. But I still don?t see where there is any other better option for us - and ?better? means: we like it more and we can move there in the not too distant future and we can afford it. Where is it?"

Better options? We wont know that until the club get real on looking for alternatives to the proposed stadium.

Can we afford it? You know full well that the club have hardly made their case for how they?ll afford the shift to Kirkby.

If you?re looking for some common ground to build a united front, you might as well start off by recognising these basic points.
Neil Pearse
83   Posted 16/11/2007 at 21:24:15

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David, sorry mate, but the point about affordability is simply that - in line with some of the visuals we are seeing - Kirkby is going to be about as cheap as we could possibly get a ’decent’ 50,000+ stadium. Tell me where we are going to get something cheaper (apart perhaps from staying at GP). We are not. We really aren’t. (Arguments about the Loop site can go in all sorts of directions, but it couldn’t possibly be cheaper than a new retail park in Kirkby. We don’t need masses of research to tell us that.)

As for ’getting real on other options’, this is often said but really is nonsense. The club did look for years, and didn’t come up with anything else THAT WE CAN AFFORD. Of course there are lots of other options. For example, we could have built a £500 million stadium in Stanley Park if only we had got there first. EXCEPT WE CAN’T AFFORD IT. I’m not sure why this seems so difficult for people to understand.

Basically what I am trying to say is: Kirkby is cheap because that is all we can afford. There are no other better viable options because we can’t afford them. Not because we haven’t ’looked hard’ - sites for major football stadiums in Liverpool are very few and not exactly a secret. The only way we could afford these better sites is if we were taken over by a rich new owner who pumped tens, perhaps hundreds, of millions into the club.

None of us like this reality of our financial situation, but that does not make it any the less real. We are going to shop in Tescos because we can’t afford Harrods. It’s really as simple as that.
Adam Doyle
84   Posted 16/11/2007 at 22:27:26

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You get what you pay for, I suppose.

Which, in this case, is relatively nothing compared to modern stadium prices.
Dave Randles
85   Posted 16/11/2007 at 22:38:59

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Got to throw my tuppeneth in.

It looks shite.

I am amazed that there are blues that would accept this poor man’s Pride Park/Riverside/Reebok/Ricoh.

If you know your fucking history you should be up in arms.

A disgrace and a slur on the intelligence of your average blue.
Brian Wolf
86   Posted 16/11/2007 at 23:08:20

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John Beesley

If you don’t go to the ground even though you live nearer to it than Goodison how can you ever claim to be a fan again?

50 years and you’ll throw it all away because the club has moved grounds. You’re a joke mate.
Dutch Schaffaer
87   Posted 17/11/2007 at 00:14:23

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Yeah Tony what was I thinking, two goals and a half decent performance from Yakubu easily warrants his £11 million price tag.

He was great against Chelsea too, no wait he was taken off at half time because of how shit he played.

£11 million and a kid like Anichebe has to show him the way.
Derek Thomas
88   Posted 17/11/2007 at 05:47:49

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Artists impressions, like the old ’serving suggestion’ show a stylised wish, they’re never as good in real life’


Recent events in the Derby have only re-enforced the feeling that the redshite have sold their Shankley red souls to the devil, well at least they went to the top man in the soul selling game(sympathy for the devil woo woo woo woo)

We sold ours to.....

Connor Rohrer
89   Posted 17/11/2007 at 11:19:35

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Dutch, its actually 4 goals in 11 games which is a decent return. I seriously hate the way people bring the price tag into it. Yakubu cannot help the fact that Moyes paid 11 million pounds for him. He has come here had a tricky start and is now showing what a good player he is with creativity around him. His work rate has improved as have his performances.

Anichebe from the start of a game has not shown Yak up at all. In fact when he’s started he’s looked like the teenager he is. Coming of the bench is completely different. The defenders are tired and Vic 100% so he scores and gives them a tough time. In no way can you say he is showing Yakubu.

Did you watch the Chelsea game? It wasn’t Yakubu’s fault he wasn’t getting the ball. We hardly touched it and the midfield was being overrun therefore he was feeding of scraps. Long balls aren’t creativity in my eyes and for the majority of his short Everton career Yakubu has been fed this and you have judged him on this. Once we start getting the ball on the floor he starts playing well and I know when I see a good player and Yak is a good player.
David Kiely
90   Posted 17/11/2007 at 12:17:52

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Neil Pearse -

you can?t rebuff someone?s point that we dont have the evidence to hand to say that Everton definitely wont be in financial quicksand with a move to Kirkby by simply stating "WE CAN AFFORD IT". Neither you, I, nor any other blue can know what those costs are currently running at (regardless of what the club suggest), nor can we project forward and anticipate what they will end up as.

You hinted at the best possible solution: staying at Goodison Park. A piecemeal redevelopment of our own arena is the way forward. If that means we have to put up with slightly lower or static attendances for 3 seasons, then so be it. We will, at the end of THAT process, at least still be Everton FC, not a glorified MK Dons.

Neil Pearse
91   Posted 17/11/2007 at 12:39:17

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David, of course nobody knows what the final financial outcome of a big build like Kirkby is. But this point applies to ALL options. Uncertainty is uncertainty. You can’t get rid of it. If I buy a house, I don’t know what its price will be in five years time, nor what interest rates will be. But that doesn’t mean I never leave home.

You go with the option that looks best relative to the other options. Relative to the other options, in financial terms for the delivery of a modern 50,000+ stadium, Kirkby is the best deal we have found. Indeed, unless we want to take major financial risks with our club, it is currently the only deal we have found that we can (probably, given all the uncertainties) afford. Of course, if there are massive cost overruns, or if we get relegated, it will turn out that we couldn’t afford it and we will be in the shit. But exactly the same applies to the Loop or any other option you care to mention.

Except I would argue that in the case of Kirkby, the involvement of Tescos will make it much more likely that the site will be delivered on time and on cost. They have done this kind of thing before.

Finally, for most of us, staying at GP is simply not an option, for all the reasons that have been repeated so often. GP will never generate the revenues we need to compete with the big boys. So if you don’t like Kirkby you really do have to come up with another option that we can afford. Otherwise you are mostly saying that you wish we were richer. Me too.
Gavin Ramejkis
92   Posted 17/11/2007 at 13:19:16

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Neil the argument about staying at Goodison to a less attractive location for revenue streams - increased fanbase doesnt add up and location fails too away from a more attractive Stanley Park Arena right next to a revitalised and growing City Centre, the sums and even logic don’t add up, if they did then someone would be based in Kirkby already and it wouldn’t need regeneration. The ideal solution was wasted by BK just a few years ago in the Kings Dock. Studies published here and on other websites have shown that redeveloping GP would provide increased attendances within the same budget now coming to light for Kirkby but without the unknown parking and transport infrastructure problems. The Kirkby project will be built by heavy lending by the club £50m pound spent there or in Liverpool still equals £50m.
David Kiely
93   Posted 17/11/2007 at 13:17:17

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If we had evidence to hand that:

A) the club had done its sums on what we can expect to gain from a move to Kirkby (and by that I mean something more detailed than Wyness ?unspeak? about £10M in Moyes? transfer chest per season); research had been carried out by the club regarding previous examples of a top flight club moving so far away from its core support (with all the attendant identity questions that throws up)


B) the club had explored the potential, with partners other than Tesco/KBC, for staying in Liverpool (including the club?s custodians seriously considering a takeover of the club to bring the necessary capital on board to shift stadiums - IF Goodison is not an option)

...then we might be able to talk in a sensible manner about whether a rational decision has been made on Kirkby.

What we have at the moment is a series of broad brush strokes on cost/benefit (plus a not-so-impressive range of CGI) allied to a bloody-minded determination on the club?s part to rubbish any non-Kirkby solution to our future.

Neil Pearse
94   Posted 17/11/2007 at 13:44:08

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Gavin,we’ve crossed swords a bit today, but I am glad to agree that we would both (all?) have liked Kings Dock to have gone ahead (including Kenwright and Wyness I am sure), and that this is a major missed opportunity. But that unfortunately is all in the past now.

I am also happy to agree that ’you don’t get owt for nowt’, and of course Kirkby is going to cost the club. I also agree (I think) with your implication that we would rather be building on Stanley Park. As I’ve already written on another thread, the unfortunate reason that we are not is mainly that the Reds are a lot richer than us and so they can afford such a new build and we can’t. Kirkby could over-run to costing us £200 million (although with Tescos involved I think that is very unlikely - they are not in the habit of having major cost over-runs on their projects). But £250 million is the minimum entry price for Stanley Park, and if it over-ran it could be £500 million plus. Sadly, we are simply not in that league.

On staying at GP and all the financial implications, all I can say is that there appear to be studies on both sides of the argument. On balance I am convinced that the revenue shortfall while rebuild occurs, plus the fact that we still don’t get the kind of facilities that we can get from a new build, make GP unattractive in the long run. Whatever we do now is going to have to serve us for the next 20-30 years. I really do think it is hard to imagine even a modified GP doing that.
Neil Pearse
95   Posted 17/11/2007 at 14:00:30

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David, on your point (A), all I can really say is that you seem to believe that the future is a lot more predictable than I do. The final costs of large construction projects are inevitably unpredictable to a significant degree. Fact. Everton’s broader financial situation in 2011 is full of variables we just can’t predict right now. Where will be in the league? In Europe? What will TV money be? How much will we make from mearchandising? How much will players cost? You go with the best option based on the currently available evidence. There is nothing else you can do. I know people don’t seem to believe this, but this is really how large businesses make big decisions. Because the future just is uncertain.

Everton are so unique I really don’t know what would count as research showing the effects of moving your ground the distance between GP and Kirkby. You tell me who really would count as comparable to us and this situation?

On your (B). Like some other posters, I simply do not believe that we are going to Kirkby based on some strange Kenwright / Wyness whim, when there are really better options in the city. Why on earth would they reject them? Actually the club has been looking for years and didn’t find any that we can afford. The problem is our financial condition not that there are options we are ignoring. If we had £300 million to spend I am sure we would be spending it in the city like our neighbours.

Which brings us to your point on getting in new capital. Of course that is really what would make the difference here - I fully agree. I feel like I am repeating myself for about the hundredth time on this, but it really cannot be the case that Kenwright is blocking a new owner that otherwise we would have. How could he? Everton is an extremely prominent football club in an extremely prominent leage, and if someone wanted to buy us they would, as in viritually all other club cases, go public and try to buy us (even if Bill had turned them down first). That is what happens when someone wants to take over another business. That this hasn’t happened is a bit surprising to me, but it cannot be because of Bill. It must be that, so far, we do not look financially attractive to potential new owners.
Mike Keating
96   Posted 17/11/2007 at 14:32:01

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The sad thing is we never went for the old Littlewoods site on Edge Lane and nor did Tescos (who ended up in Old Swan Less than a mile away). If they had both looked seriously at a joint venture there everyone would have got what they wanted.
david k
97   Posted 17/11/2007 at 15:14:25

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I’m bemused at your exotic mix: on the one hand, you have this real politik of the possibilities open to us - a ’seize the moment’ attitude that we must strike whilst the iron is hot with our one and only option; and on the other, blind faith in what you’ve been told about the costs and benefits of the Kirkby deal - even though you readily concede you have no idea of what these will be.

Getting away from the requests for exhaustive research into the move that should have been conducted by this stage, and whether alternatives have been given a reasonable chance to both emerge and to be explored - I suppose, at the end of the day, we come back to what Terry Leahy reduced this whole issue to: trust. Based on what we know about the current Everton regime and our experience of them, do you think they can be trusted to find the best solution, stadium-wise, for the club or for themselves? That’s the rock that all waves break left and right of.

Clearly, a 3:2 majority of Evertonians voting 3 months ago did trust the club’s board. Now, with speculation that the club have been willfully short-sighted on the possibility of an alternative stadium at the Loop site, and with many blues viewing with growing alarm the spatial context that the less than state-of-the-art stadium will be pitched into, I believe a real sense of doubt is emerging amongst the majority of Everton supporters that the Everton board of directors can be trusted.

Neil Pearse
98   Posted 17/11/2007 at 22:23:32

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David, not sure about the ’exotic miix’, but I do know that my views are not based on any ’blind faith’ in Wyness and Kenwright.

Rightly or wrongly, I think I can make my own judgements that, for example, a development shared with Tescos in a deprived area attracting grants is going to have pretty favourable economics for us. And that a build on a wide open space is going to have better economics than one shoe-horned into a small space between roads. And that a giant like Tescos are a better partner than Bestway. And that Knowsley Council clearly are more committed to do something for Everton than LCC. I don’t need Wyness to tell me these things because I think they are pretty obvious.

You make a good point about trust. Actually I am nervous about Wyness and Kenwright, and their ability to deliver. But as I have said elsewhere, I have a lot of trust in Terry Leahy as a businessman, and that is a big positive for me in favour of Kirkby.
Neil Farrell
99   Posted 18/11/2007 at 02:03:29

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Just a thought. what about another route.
the Old Lady is over 100 yeras old could we not try and get it as a listed building with all the history that goes with the ground. then the Goverment would have to help with upkeep?

just a thought
tom Lamb
100   Posted 18/11/2007 at 08:33:47

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Daddy, daddy, what can we do today. well kids, i thought we could take a drive down to that new retail park ’where we could do some bowling , maybe take in a movie ,get ourselves a pizza meet up with mummy ,help her with the shopping ,and then we could all go to the new soccer stadium where i believe a team called the toffee,s play soccer. Nigel at the office told me it was great fun. Oh yes please daddy can we can we ........ WELCOME TO THE NEW MATCH DAY. AND WELCOME TO THE NEW FAN FROM THE NEW CATCHMENT AREA.
David Kenton
101   Posted 18/11/2007 at 11:49:07

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you say you don?t have blind faith in Kenwright and Wyness, yet we know, don?t we, that the ?unbeatable economics? of the Kirkby proposal you allude to haven?t been put seriously to the test due to the club?s stitch up with Tesco/KBC...AKA ?the exclusivity period?.

And I can?t help thinking that your faith in Terry Leahy is misplaced. Getting the shell of a Barr constructed stadium in place on time was never really the issue regarding Leahy/Tesco. Once planning permission has been received and Tesco/Barr fullfill their obligation regarding the stadium, this club is well and truly on its own to sink or swim in a location that?s proving very unpopular with a large minority of its existing support base.
Steve Taylor
102   Posted 18/11/2007 at 16:57:36

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I always thought that football was played on grass?

The view from the top of the stand is irrelevant to me - I don’t care if our new stadium is next to a fucking McDonalds - what does it matter???

I suspect the "matchday experience" is the real issue here - getting on a bus & having to change the habits of decades seems to be the driver for many hating the idea of Kirkby in my opinion.

If the stadium design was that of the Emirates & there was nothing but green fields next to it - would it still be as unpalletable???? For many I suspect it would......
stu jonno 9
103   Posted 18/11/2007 at 18:53:39

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some people need there heads testing, does the new ground look better than goodison? are the facilities better? will we make more money? get a grip FFS
David Kenton
104   Posted 18/11/2007 at 20:35:52

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Stu Jonno 9 wrote:
"some people need there heads testing, does the new ground look better than goodison? are the facilities better? will we make more money? "


I should hope any new stadium would

Who knows

Steve Lyth
105   Posted 20/11/2007 at 11:07:26

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You only get Cows and shit in a Cow Shed, its that simple.
Steve Lyth
106   Posted 20/11/2007 at 14:56:39

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Oh and the fat farmer milking those Cows.
Cheery Keith, I can see him now

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