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Successfull Season? My Arse!

By Tony Marsh :  14/04/2008 :  Comments (53) :
If ever there was a time that encapsulates where we are heading under David Moyes then it has been this past month or so. Five games sum up the crisis we are now in and they are the matches against Fulham, West Ham, Derby County, Liverpool and Saturday's pathetic showing at Birmingham. I have to laugh at some of our lot who post on here with the ready-made excuses for Moyes and his team and have the nerve to call this season a success. Injuries and lack of finances have done for us, they say. Well where I come from, Injuries and lack of money don't make players punt stupid fuucking balls 60 yards down field to midgets!!! It's the shite football that is doing us in ? nothing else. Chasing shadows all fucking season... no wonder everyone is fucked! We now have more chance of finishing 7th than 4th in the league now and I cant see us getting more than 2 points from the remaining 4 games.

We get beaten in Europe by the first decent side we play and the mighty Oldham Athletic knock us out of the FA Cup at Goodison and Chelsea reserves playing with 10 men for an hour beat us in the Carling Cup semi... Yep, some success story that is. It's all too familiar ground we are treading now the buisness end of things have come about. What is it with these end-of-season collapses and this need to play gormless no-brain football?

I watched the Reading ? Fulham game at the weekend and relegation-threatened Fulham played in a style that we can only dream of at Everton and they did it with a load of our cast offs. FFS, someone get me a doctor! It now beyond a joke and beyond defending the way we play and have done for the past 6 years. Only a fool can be happy with this wasted season and the crappy style in which we play the game. It's shamefull.

Moyes is no more than a defensive organiser who has no clue whatsoever when it comes to playing a more expansive game. He can't do it and thats a fact. Just ask the poor souls who ventured to St Andrews on Saturday. It's like I have said in the past. Throw all the money you like at DM and it won't make a blind bit of difference. He hasn't got the ability to send out teams playing attacking on the floor football. How can he when Davey learned his craft under the guidance of Howard Wilkinson who was technical director at the FA when Moyes took his badges courses. Howard fucking Wilkinson!!!

Surely if we are resigned to never winning fuck all then a bit of decent footy to entertain us isn't too much to ask is it? What shite are we teaching these kids at the Academy? ? That's what I would like to know... God help us if it's the Moyes brand of hoofball.

If we are to be of any use as football club then I am afraid it has to be taxi for Moyes as I fear we are where we are in spite of Moyes rather than because of him. He still hasnt clicked on that Phil Neville is a total waste of a shirt after 3 years, FFS.

If you don;t believe me about the attacking ineptitude shown by DM then just think about how many goals our strikers have scored over the past few years. Bent, Big Dunc, Beattie, AJ nad now the Yak ? all struggled or struggling under DM's regime. Johnson looks shot to pieces and who can blame him when all he does is run the channels every game.

By the way, the Moyes brigade's favourite whipping boy, Wally Smith, ain't half doing good isn't he? Don't hear too many slagging Smith off these days do we? I wonder why? Does anyone think Rangers fans would swap Smith for Moyes right now.... erm I don't think so somehow... do you???

Reader Comments

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John Sreet
1   Posted 15/04/2008 at 06:58:05

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Here he is again, love these ?time for a laugh? posts, the mighty Walter doing well.......yeah in a division of two teams that would struggle in the championship, great comparison.
Mr Marsh your posts make irresistable reading, predictable and humorous....keep it up you brighten up my early mornings.
Mike Todd
2   Posted 15/04/2008 at 07:54:45

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Just out of interest, what conclusions can you draw from comparing our recent form in the last five games with a team that plays "dream football" ie Arsenal?
John Staines
3   Posted 15/04/2008 at 07:33:09

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I?ve been reading this site for some time but haven?t bothered to post preferring just to read other fans comments both positive and negative....some constructive and some not.

However, I?m compelled to respond to just another of Tony Marsh?s utter drivel (aka SHITE) stories (for want of a better word).

I?m only going to say what has been said countless times before by other level headed fans on this site....just pre warning you all incase you think my comment is going to be some kind of comment that changes your life.....you?ll be sadly disappointed.

Anyway! My point is this.....I?ve been a fan for 32 years so I?ve seen some good times and I?ve seen some terrible times....The Wimbledon game to stay up was just agony. The current Everton team are not perfect....David Moyes is not perfect but at least I feel that we have a chance to win games..... and we do most often than not. I remember not so long ago when if managed to get a draw then I thought that was a good result! This Everton team is by far the best team since the heady 80?s under Mr Kendall. But Moyes has done a wonderful job of bringing in young players with potential into a club that was once littered with so much dead wood you could have had Guy Fawkes night 20 times over! To say that we have not had a successful season is just wrong. The squad are tired after a long season so it?s understandable that the results have dropped off abit.

So what if we don?t make 4th spot and Liverpool pip us to it..... how much money have they spent to get to 4th compared to us???? One of their strikers cost almost as much as our entire team ffs. We don?t have billionaire backers for whatever reason so we just have to try and compete the best we can & to be honest I think we?re in a great position considering where we were at 5 years ago.

Yes....we can improve and I?m sure thats exactly what the board and David Moyes are planning on doing next year. As I said we ain?t Billionaires so we have to build slowly adding quality year by year. As far as I can see this is exactly what has happened with the squad becoming bigger with quality signings! Sure we will need to replace players like Carsley (I have to say he proved you wrong Colm! :-) ) next season...but I?m almost positive it?ll be with a young player with 5-10 years in the tank instead.....from lilttle things big things grow.... and after having one foot in the grave Everton Football Club are certainly doing that.

So chin up people..... I see our future in a far more positive way than I did 10 years ago.
Derek Thomas
4   Posted 15/04/2008 at 07:02:54

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This is turning into another of Moyes’s 50 % seasons. 04-05 was the textbook one, this one is not far off.

What about the one where we were bottom in Oct for the 1st Qrtr, we had a good middle then tapered off to 11th .

People then were tryng to stick a spoon into the plate of shite that was being served up and convince me it really WAS chocolate...nah

Think back to just before Christmas, United, yeah but if it wasn’t for Peanuts lazy leg we woulda etc etc....The fact was we didn’t....Nearly, close, but no round brown cylindrical tobacco thing.

Then the was the Arsenal game, the biter bit, the ultimate hoofball merchants hoist by their, own petard.... Howard shoulda, Yobo shoulda coulda woulda, a day late and a Dollar short, Yeah but...that Eduardo was class before he broke his leg.

Since Christmas we’ve done, with the odd exception, 5/8s of fuck all. on some games we have played poorly and won (sunderland). But mostly we’ve just played poorly. The play poorly and win excuse only applies to good teams for the odd game in 20. I can accept that, the playing poorly bit, we have been missing out on the win bit....another one of Moyes’s 50 % ers

Any way enough of All our yesterdays.

The point of Marshies tirade is, YES we know the probable reasons, finance, etc etc

But We, He and Me, STILL don’t have to like it, STILL, remember the School of Science, STILL, know what the Motto means.

We are reverse Bobby Magee’s....It ISNT alright for us and Bobby Magee.... and we would trade all our Yesterdays silverware, for a single Tomorrow cup F.A., EPL or CL only need apply, the rest belong in Euro-Disney.

Yes and maybe his Walter reference wasn’t as apt as it might be.

But too many people think Just coz we’ve moved on from his MEDIOCRITY, just like Joseph, any dream will do and 5th from top is the new 5th from Bottom, we nearly made it, small squad, blah blah, sold McF, blah, blah, injuries, blah, blah

Arguing about the glass being half empty or half full, doesn’t change the actual amount of 50%

And that 50% STILL TASTES LIKE CATS PISS..well for 50% of the time when we are losing

We wern’t happy with the Mediocrity why should we be happy with THE NEARLYOCRITY.
Peter Corcoran
5   Posted 15/04/2008 at 07:59:35

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I quite like the crisis we are currently suffering compared to the wonderful stuff we had under Walter, Mike Waker and Howards return visits.

Fulham - do me a favour, I would rather play crap and be where we are in the table than play the most wonderful football ever experienced and be in Fulham’s position. If Filham are so graet then you know what to do - we’ll see you in the cup next year because Fulham will be going down and won’t come back for a long time!Maybe you want us at the bottom of the table to give your quite pathetic and childish rants some real substance and give you more opportunity to whinge. Go and see a doctor becase there is clearly something seriously wrong with you.

I also think you are wrong to say we play crap football - since Christmas I agree with you but up until then there were times we played as well as I’ve seen us play for decades.

If DM is such a "defenssive organiser" then why did he buy Arteta, why is he wanting to buy Pienaar and wht is he having another look at Fernandes. I think I’ve just realised - you neverr go to the match do you?

I agree that we have not had a successful season - how we can say that when we’ve won nothing? We have had a good season and that’s all.

Yes I am happy that what we have done this season is better than what I was expecting last August, but what is wrong with being happy about that? It does not mean that there is no ambition to do better.

It may surprise you to know that the teams that do all the winning are the same ones that do all the spending. DM has spent a small fraction of what the "winners" have spent and I genuinely believe that if he is given the right financial support and appoints a decent side-kick that he will bring us some silverware, athough I do admit he does seem to fall over when in sight of the winning post! But I think he will come good.
Connor Rohrer
6   Posted 15/04/2008 at 08:01:47

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Its a very fair article in my opinion. The football does need to improve and and we do need to play to our players strengths.

Saying that though I am of the opinion that Moyes has improved alot this season. His interviews are better and more positive the football is better than last season although not perfect. I think he’s realised that long ball football doesn’t work and has tried to get more technically gifted players in our midfield like Arteta, Pienaar, Fernandes and Osman.

The football is very important though. When where in the final third we can create chances and play some decent stuff but we don’t control games. One we don’t have the players required to do it and two there is a lack of composure of the back four have have a tendency to bypass the midfield.

For the reasons above I am willing to give him another season. If we finish 5th in my opinion this will have been a good season. Not perfect but a progression on last season. Considering we have a small squad we have coped with the demands well and have had two cup runs. If we finish out of Europe then we haven’t had a good season at all and that will be all down to Moyes and the players.

Being realistic he won’t leave this season so there not point in me speculating. I’ll be judging him alot on his pre-season transfers. If he doesn’t replace the weak links in our side like Carsley and continues to persist with Phil Neville then personally I don’t think David Moyes and Everton have a future together. We at a point now where we need to move on and we can’t accommodate players like Neville and Carsley.

Tony, One thing I don’t agree with is branding everyone who disagrees with you a Moyes lover or apologist. Thats not on at all. There are alot of people who give a fair opinion and pick out his strengths and weaknesses. I’d say more people are against Moyes than with him on this site. This is probably the only site where that is the case.

The Walter Smith comment is also terrible. I don’t think Moyes is the dogs bollocks but I’d have him over Smith every day of the week. Moyes would win the league in Scotland and he’d also go far in the Uefa cup. Every manager who manages one of the old firm would. Thats just the way it is.
Neil Pearse
7   Posted 15/04/2008 at 08:34:15

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Good points Tony on the style of football, but the rest of the gloom is way over the top.

We played much better football for the few months when Cahill, Arteta, Osman and Pienaar were all fit. We almost beat Fiorentina, and played some excellent football that night. We will probably finish fifth, and have an excellent core to our squad for next season (Howard, Lescott, Yobo, Baines, Jagielka, Arteta, Pienaar, Cahill, Yakubu, Vaughan, Johnson).

Yes, we desperately need 3-4 high quality additions in the summer so we can play more of the better football we managed in our ’Cahill period’. Otherwise - smile!
Steve Templeton
8   Posted 15/04/2008 at 08:53:54

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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

You have just compared David Moyes to Walter Smith.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

You complain that Moyes is negative, cannot you not remember not scoring a goal at home from open play for three months under Smith?

You used to wind me up Tony but now you just make me laugh.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Billy Dean
9   Posted 15/04/2008 at 08:55:37

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RELEGATION THREATENED Fulham played great against Reading did they? Well played to them. I hope our cast-offs light up the Championship next year, after having spent a damn-sight more than us last summer.

It’s also a fact that our creative players are injured or unfit, not to mention our strikers. Can you remember how well we were playing around November/December? We were at full-strength then. Surely how a team plays at full strength is more indicative of the style in which the manager wants to play?

Are you also saying that you would prefer to have Walter Smith than Moyes?
Chris Briddon
10   Posted 15/04/2008 at 08:59:39

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Derek - how can you suggest we have done nothing since Christmas, when it was our good form after Christmas that put us into contention for 4th in the first place?

We haven?t lost a home game since Arsenal in December and prior to our poor defeat at Fulham, we hadn?t lost to a side out of the big 4 since about September!

If 2 disappointing defeats and a couple of poorish draw counts as a bad half of a season I will take it any day.

Oh and Tony, I was at Pride Park on Saturday watching Derby play Villa - they lsot 6-0 but they played pretty football, so you can go and watch them instead if you like.

There is a balance between pretty football and winning matches. When we were on top form and had a full squad we could manage both. Now we are at the business end of the season, with players out of form and injured - so it is the result that counts not how you get it!
Alex Baker
11   Posted 15/04/2008 at 09:00:06

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If you think of the targets most people were aiming for at the start of the season, in all honesty Everton have reached them. Similar league position to last season, good cup runs and an improvement on the playing style (earlier in the season). It is a shame that the season has petered out after such promise, but this season, you have to admit that Everton have raised expectations for next year.
Brian Richardson
12   Posted 15/04/2008 at 09:09:13

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You conceded that David Moyes was a very good manager about 2 months ago, Tony. Do you remember? You admitted you may have got it wrong and said that Moyes had won you over.

Hilarious rant, with this in mind.

Wally Smith? He?s managing Rangers, for Christ?s sake. I?d have a 50/50 chance of winning the league if I managed Rangers. You are an idiot if you think you can compare the points tally of Rangers with the points tally of Everton.

I?d rather compare the years Wally managed Everton with the years we have enjoyed under Moyes.

Compare this with your posts just 2 months ago and you?ll see how hypocritical you are. We?ve had a few bad games and now the man you decided you respected afterall is nothing more than a defensive organiser.

Relegation-threatened Fulham played in a way we can only dream of? Are you kidding? I live in London and have seen 7 or 8 Fulham games this season with a Fulham-supporting friend. They have been garbage. Even at the weekend, they were clueless in every department but had a hard-working striker, one creative midfielder and faced the worst performance I have ever seen by an opposing team.

Compare this to the way we have played teams off the park for most of the season (that?s why we?re 5th and Fulham are about to get relegated, by the way). Our squad is depleted and performances have dipped. Our most creative player has played with a crippling injury for 6 months. Yet Moyes, who you?ve once again decided is useless, has managed to keep us within touching distance of Liverpool.

You?re a disgrace, Marsh. And your selective memory is embarrassing. Yes, we got beaten in Europe by Fiorentina, but if you remember we played them off the park at Goodison and were exceptionally unlucky not to score 4 or 5 (against the 4th best side in Italy, who incidentally couldn?t string two passes together at Goodison. Sack their manager, I say).

You don?t deserve Moyes as a manager. His expertise, heart and commitment to the club are wasted on fans like you.
Steve Guy
13   Posted 15/04/2008 at 09:04:10

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When we were winning TM nearly came over the fence (read his article from earlier this season) and actually started to warm to this team. Why ? Because we were playing decent football and winning. At that time we were all a lot happier for exactly the same reasons.

It’s gone pear shaped as injuries and tiredness have hit home. Moyes has recently admitted he needs to rest certain players but can’t. I could go on in this vein but the reasons for our failure to take the 4th spot will be debated long into the summer and, as was said recently the season’s not over yet so it’s too early for that kind of analysis.

In the coulda shoulda stakes I would refer you to the Right Result website which has us well clear in 4th. Poor decisions HAVE cost us dear and benefitted others. As recently as last Saturday (regardless of how well we played or otherwise) Jaidi should have been booked for ungentlemanly conduct and the (excellent) free kick re-taken.

I travel around a lot and supporters of pretty much every club I talk to can see the wood for the trees (which TM continually fails or refuses to do). Many covet Moyes and a significant number of our players. Even the media are starting to take notice e.g. Mick Dennis in the Express who has had many nice things to say about the team and its manager of late.

So I don’t recognise the majority of TM’s rant as pertaining to my team and nor do the majority both inside and outside the Club.
Ray Said
14   Posted 15/04/2008 at 09:31:20

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I point out that the conditions of use state that ’you treat other posters with dignity and respect..... that include personal attacks’. Its important people like Tony can express their views without being called a ’Kopite’ or being told ’ur are a cunt’.
Tony’s views are as valid as anyones elses and its best for those that dont agree to debate him on the points rather than make personal attacks.
Blair Johnson
15   Posted 15/04/2008 at 09:40:30

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We have simply run out of steam at the end of a longer than usual season (two decent Cup runs for the first time in many years.) We have a small squad and some injury issues. In hindsight Moyes could and should have got a couple more players in ... either before the start of the season or in January... but this IS a good season ... any season where we qualify for Europe ... and we still should is a good one...look what Spurs and Newcastle (richer clubs with more support) have achieved in the league. If Moyes was not a good manager he would not still be in charge... end of
Tony Marsh
16   Posted 15/04/2008 at 09:42:50

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Well said Ray Said.
It now appears that if you dont lap up the shit Moyes's teams dish out then your opinion doesn't count. It's not as if DM is a rookie at the club the man has had over 6 years and still we are playing in an embarrssing manner. I want Everton fans to demand better than this. If Spurs, West Ham and Newcastle supporters demand thier teams play in a certain way then why not us. What's our club motto again??????
Shaun Sparke
17   Posted 15/04/2008 at 09:56:11

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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That Newton fella certainly knew what he was talking about. The latest, all too predictable invective of the club that I love and the manager of the same club will provoke a reaction from those who agree and disagree with Tony Marsh. The editors at Toffeeweb have quite rightly, regularly argued that everybody has a right to air their opinions as long as they are relevant to Everton fc. This is a fine sentiment but surely the editorial policy should stretch to avoiding repetitious posts that I suspect have the sole aim of self promotion more akin to an American Whitehouse candidate rather than a football supporter who is genuinely concerned at the fortunes of his football club.
Before I get accused of indulging in a personal attack on one of my fellow blues I will keep the remainder of this post football related and indeed will use the most recent post by Tony Marsh as a template for why I and many other blues raise our collective hackles at some of the absurd generalism and half-truths that are persistently quoted with such relentless monotony.
Firstly, Tony states that we are in a crisis. Really? We are currently 5th in the premier league, are close to attaining our highest points total since the premier league was formed and are favourites to occupy the only UEFA cup place that is available via league placing. True, I want us to do better and to actually challenge for a trophy. I also agree that this season should not be viewed as successful, but crisis? I don?t think so.
Secondly, I refute the allegation that we have more chance of finishing 7th than 4th? Time will tell of course, but I hope the players have more fire in their collective bellies than some of our fans. That kind of defeatist talk has no place at our club. Some may argue that a dash of realism never hurt anybody, but I would prefer to be in my real world than yours.
Thirdly, I agree with Tony that Fiorentina were a decent side. I also witnessed my Everton team totally outplay them at Goodison, beat them 2 ? 0 with a performance that gained admiration from much of the written media. We went out on penalties which was tough, but that could happen to any team. We lost the match with an insipid performance in Florence, this is something that we must and will learn from. Additionally, I don?t remember playing a Chelsea reserve team in the league cup semi finals. Cech, Carvalho, Alex, Bridge, Wright-Phillips, Makalele, J Cole, Anelka. They all played that night. Some reserves eh? Oh yes and we were without Yakubu, Yobo and Pienaar. You forgot to mention that.
As for wishing that we could play in a style of football that Fulham produced against Reading. Are you being serious? Fulham are facing a battle to stay in this league, I can?t begin to comprehend your rationale for including this paragraph in your article, please offer a little more clarity of thought in future. You vent your frustration at David Moyes with such venom that if I were to reciprocate using you as a target then Kenrick and Lloyd would censor me for having a go at a fellow blue. You state that Moyes has no clue when it comes to playing an expansive game. He can?t do it and that?s a fact you state. Try telling that to the Sunderland Goalkeeper who conceded 7 at Goodison whilst Moyes team played unrestrained football! So you see Tony he can do it, but just not as often as you would like.
You blame Moyes for the lack of goals from strikers? such as Bent, Big Dunc, Beattie, AJ, and the Yak. Let?s have a closer look at this. Bent has never been a consistent goalscorer, how many goals has he scored for Wigan this season? Big Dunc really set Tyneside on fire with his goal scoring feats for Newcastle. Beattie had one good season at Southampton and a half decent season with us. Ok he scores goals in the Championship, but so could I. AJ will always be a 10 goal a season striker, he is the best that we could afford at the time, and the Yak has a pretty decent scoring record this season. A more creative midfield will help all our strikers and that is something Moyes must address this close season. But I am sure he is aware of this, let?s see what money he is given before we say he can?t do it.
Finally, well done to Walter Smith at Rangers, but are you seriously suggesting that we should never had sacked him? We would have ended up getting relegated with an ageing squad and a massive wage bill and be in a far worse position than the crisis we are currently in now. So come on Tony, we all feel a little frustration at not winning another trophy this season and believe it or not you are not the only one who cares about this club.
Jim Hourigan
18   Posted 15/04/2008 at 09:59:14

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Whilst I won?t / can?t defend some of Marsh?s comments, can I ask those who defend DM up to the hilt to explain how Juande Ramos can take over a side in the bottom 3 and win a trophy in 6 months and we have won sweet fa in 6 years under Moyes?
Øystein Lemvik
19   Posted 15/04/2008 at 10:06:54

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Our motto, Tony, is Nil satis nisi optimum. The next time you try an analasys, try to stick to it. Why do I say this? Well, you rant and rave, but your attempt at an analasys falls way short of what one can expect. Basically, just for fun, I would say that your article - compared to a good article - comes out as League 2-material.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but that holds true for your critics as well.
Brian Richardson
20   Posted 15/04/2008 at 10:30:08

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Yes, Jim Courigan, I can explain exactly how Ramos took over a team in the bottom 3 and won a cup within 3 months, whereas we have won fuck all.

Spurs have spent £140 million in the last 3-4 years and have a team that, on paper, should be in the top 4. Ramos took over the side when they were in a false position (do you really think they were relegation candidates!?) and got them playing to their potential. It was always going to happen. Remember, Spurs finished in the top 5 twice under Martin Jol - they were a good side then and they still are now.

It’s not like Ramos took over Birmingham, Sunderland or Derby and won them a cup. He won a cup with a side that has spent the kind of money that you spend when you absolutely demand a cup.

Everton have not spent that money. It’s ludicrous, therefore, to compare Moyes’ achievements with those of somebody managing a side worth approximately 5 or 6 times as much money,
Ged Dwyer
21   Posted 15/04/2008 at 10:22:48

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The way some of the Moyes brigade reply to Tony really shows them up for what they are: Idiots. Tony is a genuine Evertonian who actually cares about Everton Football Club and the way we play the game on the pitch.
The team has been embarrassing to watch over the last few weeks. The style of play is primitive and while Moyes is yet again dragging our name through the mud more kids will be moving over to support the RS. That’s the result of this.
If you don’t understand this don’t comment. The real Evertonians know what is going on is just not good enough.
Steve Lyth
22   Posted 15/04/2008 at 10:29:54

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I will keep it breif, it was easier for us to finnish 4th this season than the last time we achieved it. Through poor refereeing decisions, injuries to key players and a lack of gas in the tank (not to mention the piss poor support of late ) we have come up short. Tony is bang on with the tactics of late, pure "Hoof Ball" .We still have players capable of playing some decent stuff but it isnt happening, now why is that ?
Steve Templeton
23   Posted 15/04/2008 at 10:35:58

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Well said Shaun, I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Jim, why don’t you have a look at how much the Spurs squad cost in comparison with ours? How well has Ramos done in the league, didn’t they get beat 4-1 at home by Newcastle the other week?

Finally, Tony you have just asked us to act like Newcastle fans.

I rest my case.
Jason Lam
24   Posted 15/04/2008 at 10:41:00

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Jim Hourigan: a possible explaination - Woodgate, Hutton. The financial power to buy decent players at a whim?

Who did we get? Spurs reject Gardner. And it’s all Moyes fault for not beating Chelsea to Anelka when Yak and Drogba were off to ANC. And it Moyes’ fault for forcing a half-decent youth product in Rooney out of Goodison too.

Me thinks we don’t have any money. Cardiff City should prove us wrong though.
Steve Templeton
25   Posted 15/04/2008 at 10:56:58

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Steve Lyth, talk about lies, damned lies and statistics!

"it was easier for us to finish 4th this season than the last time we achieved it".

No it isn’t mate.

When we finished fourth in 2005 we obtained 61 points, we are currently on the same number of points with four games to go and we will probably need another 5 points to guarantee finishing fifth.

How is that easier than in 2005?
Peter Corcoran
26   Posted 15/04/2008 at 10:44:25

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The time to judge is at the end of the season. You cannot judge/comdemn on the past few months performances/results alone. To completely forget the great, yes great, performances of earlier in the season is just plain stupid.

Overall to achieve the best Premier League points total ever, to get to the CL cup semis and have a good run in the Uefa Cup does not warrant such a load of bollocks that is served up on this site.

I do not accept that Fiorentina were the only good side we met in the Uefa Cup - look at Zenit, and don?t say we were lucky against them when you don?t accept that we have been very unlucky on too many occasions this season with poor decisions by officials. I accept that we wanted more than what we have achieved this season but we are progressing and getting better overall.
Karl Masters
27   Posted 15/04/2008 at 11:06:49

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Whilst we are playing poorly at present, we played good football for most of a spell of 30 or so games between October and mid March. You cannot just write that off.

Yes, the style is not there at present, but it was a few weeks ago and it?s been there more often than not this season ? a big improvement on last season for a start. Next season we hope an expect to see it more often. A bigger squad is needed to sustain a challenge.

Had to laugh out loud at your Walter Smith comments. Leaving aside what happened when he was at Goodison, you clearly haven?t actually sat through a Rangers European match, Tony! They play a strict 4-5-1, have drawn most home games 0-0 and have played for a 1-0 away win or an away draw to get through on away goals and so far it?s worked very well. Very effective, but boring to watch ? just what you keep telling Moyes not to do!

We all want good-to-watch football every week, but we also demand results. Hence you are now being critical, but a couple of months ago you vanished off here because results were good. Everton are improving ? exercise a bit more patience, it?s the only way!
Eugene McLoughlin
28   Posted 15/04/2008 at 11:38:34

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People on this forum are always saying that we should respect each other, which of course I agree with. I would especially like to congratulate Karl Masters on an excellent reply - it is the most common sense that has been posted in a while.

Tony Marsh does have his right to an opinion but the way he portrays his message is very inflammatory as there are people out there that actually think Moyes is doing a good job ? you ask any fans that were not there for the 80s and they will agree that this is the best season we have had in a long time.

Yes of course we had a chance to get 4th and we are being found out a little; however, as Karl says one cannot say that we were lucky in certain games without saying how unlucky we are a lot of other games... Here's to finishing as strong as possible this season!!

Steve Lyth
29   Posted 15/04/2008 at 12:18:42

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Mr Templeton, what lies?
Given the amount of points we have dubiously been denied and those we have simply thrown away at the back end of the season we would have been well clear of Liverpool as another poster has pointed out in this thread. Liverpool went to pieces last time we were 4th, as far as I am concerned we had a lot of it in our own hands this time around, so I beg to differ.
Kevin Sparke
30   Posted 15/04/2008 at 12:19:16

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Nil Satis etc?.

Meanwhile in the REAL world, it would be nice if we could keep the ball on the deck ... a bit like we were doing two months ago

It would be nice if we had a prolific goal scorer... a bit like Yak was two months ago

It would be nice if we could avoid injuries to key players

And it would be nice if Phil Neville took up cricket...

In the Summer we need two passing, strong midfielders, cover at right back and another striker.... We need to offload Big Vic and Harry Hill. (not good enough, not young enough)

We?re almost a good side
Steve Stott
31   Posted 15/04/2008 at 12:42:22

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Everybody seems to measure success against what the so called Big Four achieve - well this season one if not three of them wont win anything - we’ve reached semi final of one competition, been beaten by a side (and beaten a side so to say we hadn’t beaten a good side before going out!) who are in the semi final of another one - are 5th in the toughest league in the world - not bad I suggest.
Also if you look at how the season has progressed - we were 6th in the form league Aug - end Dec & 4th in Jan 1 - Apr 14
So before you have a go get your facts straight.
Robbie Muldoon
32   Posted 15/04/2008 at 12:48:06

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Why post big essays in the comments section you fools?!

Tony is right, this season isn?t successful. In fact, It?s is fucking depressing right now! I would add further to the negativity by suggesting we may be better off next season without Uefa Cup football???
Tony Connor
33   Posted 15/04/2008 at 12:56:38

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Jim Hourigan

Premier League

Ramos since taking over at Spurs in August ’07 41 points. Squad value 123.4 million

Moyes since Aug ’07 54 points. Squad value 62.4 million....I’ll take Mr Moyes thank you
Steve Templeton
34   Posted 15/04/2008 at 12:48:42

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Steve,
I wasn’t accusing you of lying I was trying to pull you up on your point that it was easier to qualify for fourth place this season than in 2005.

You are quite right in your assessment that we have been denied points by some very dodgy refereeing decisions and if we had converted the penalty that should have been awarded for the foul on Lescot in the Goodison derby then we would have only been two points behind Liverpool.

What I don’t understand is your point that we have thrown points away when in your earlier post you admitted that we have suffered injuries to key players which is not necessarily a question of us throwing the points away but a question of us not being at our best and beating lesser teams without our best midfielders/forwards.

I also disagree that Liverpool went to pieces in 2005, if I remember correctly Benitez rested key players during their run-in in favour of their Champions League ambitions but he now has a larger squad which enables him to maintain their league form.

If Liverpool win two of their remaining matches then they will finish with at least 72 points which will be 11 more than we managed in 2005 so I just can’t see how you can say it would have been easier to finish fourth this season.
Peter Bourke
35   Posted 15/04/2008 at 13:03:45

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All I can say Tony is WHOM was managing the team when we were playing attacking football towards the end of last year? According to you it couldn?t have been Moyes. The difference is that he had a fit and healthy squad all in form. You tell me how you can all of a sudden get players like Cars and Nev to become creative. You can only play the cards you are dealt.
Steve Ryan
36   Posted 15/04/2008 at 13:08:28

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You would think that Tony Marsh had perpetrated war crimes based on some of the ridiculously over the top responses to his article. Notwithstanding our current league position, the fact is that for the vast majority of Moyes’s tenure (6+ years) his teams have played ugly, negative, disjointed football which makes a mockery of the clubs motto. If you dont happen to agree with those of us who hold this view then fine; but less of the abuse please; after all this is a debating forum where all opinions are welcome.
Guy McEvoy
37   Posted 15/04/2008 at 13:45:19

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Didn?t get past the words ?crisis we are now in? on the second line. Too busy laughing.
Tony Marsh
38   Posted 15/04/2008 at 13:19:54

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So success for EFC is no longer a matter of achieving anything or winning a trophy? ? it's just a matter of winning some games and going on a decent cup run? Well fuck me whats the world coming to? Or should I say what is happening to the Everton fan base??? I have never read so much limp wristed apologetic garbagge in all my life.

Everton FC, the School of Science, the Mersey Millionaires, Nil Satis and all that... no, reduced to bit-part players waiting for scraps from the big boys. Well fuck that, I want more and if you lot of arse lickers don't want it then I suggest it's you that find another club to support. A club were the fans don't want, or feel they are not worthy of, success ? just happy to tick over. Is that what being an Evertonian is all about because that's what a lot of you are saying on here? WTFS happening to us???

David Collins
39   Posted 15/04/2008 at 14:09:53

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Spot on, Tony lad ? another season comes and goes and the dross remains the same. We are absolutely awful to watch and if yer don?t think so yer kidding yerself. After 6 years were are we? Alright, we?ve steadied the boat but is that it? That?s our ambition? I can remember us under the much maligned Gordon Lee but I?l tell yer what ? compared to this Scotch gimp, he was a footballing genius.
Steve Lyth
40   Posted 15/04/2008 at 14:08:44

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Stevie T i would refer you to Steve Guys comments earlier in the thread mate, no worries I have not taken any offence, its all about points of veiw.
I try to temper mine these days in order to avoid the Vitriol Marshy gets, have a nice day fella.
Mike Allison
41   Posted 15/04/2008 at 14:04:22

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Is this really a wind up? Tony is vitriolic and nasty, and uses bad language, yet anyone who expresses disagreement with him, no matter how reasonably put, is accused of an ’over the top personal attack’.

Tony Marsh is the one guilty of over the top personal attacks. Has David Moyes done something naughty to your sister or something? Your strength of feeling against the man who has carefully and painstakingly avoided the crisis we could have been in is incredible. We could have been Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds or Nottingham Forest. We are in fact only behind four teams, and they are the ones with all the money. We are ahead of a large number of other teams who also have more money than us. We could hardly be in a better position than we are now given the way the economy of the football world is currently stacked. And that’s before we start to look at penalty and offside decisions...

Tony, do us all a favour, spell out a few positive points. What would be good enough? Which manager is capable of achieving it? How can we expect it to happen. Negativity is the easiest thing in the world, there are Man Utd fans who criticise Cristiano Ronaldo, I challenge you to be positive...
Ottar Gadid
42   Posted 15/04/2008 at 14:12:21

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Well, I would say that Mr.Marsh also just crossed the line of respect in his last post. "Arse lickers"? Very nice.

What I would prefer from you, Mr. Marsh, is a reply to the type of post made by Shaun Sparke somewhat higher up. Not just invectives and ranting, but some sort of comment on why you think this season is a flop, and some specific details on what would have constituted a successful season. 1st place in the prem? Expecting to win a cup? The double against the Shite, no matter where we’d end up? Because after yo-yoing for most of Moyes’ reign (which was a damn lot better than what we had before him), we are about to establish ourselves in the top six, which is a good starting point for trying to break the big four. We have showed that we challenge consistently for Europe, and thus we’ll be much more attractive to players wanting to play in the prem without necessarily being eligible for the Mancs, the Arse or Chelski (I wouldn’t want players who want to play for the shite)

Now, Mr. Marsh, it is up to you. Can you reply? Will you reply? Or perhaps you’re just trying to piss people off. I’ll give you that: you do that very well.

NSNO
Joe McParland
43   Posted 15/04/2008 at 14:34:12

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Tony, up here in Scotland i see a fair bit of Rankers and must tell you that there have been quite a few times recently when they have been booed off the park.
This is because Wally Smith has them playing the most boring unimaginative crap that you will ever see.
When they played against Barca earlier this year, Messi stated that it was anti-football. That is understandable against Barca to get a result, but they play the same way at home to Gretna, FFS.
If you want to slag off hoofball, fair enough but please do not use that boring Fart Smith to justify your negativity.
Steve Templeton
44   Posted 15/04/2008 at 15:06:57

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Steve L,

No hard feelings mate - I think were are on the same side of the fence to be fair.

Tony, once again you are getting success mixed up with progress. No-one is claiming that we have been succesful in winning trophies etc, I think the point that most of the people who have replied to your post are trying to say is that we are progressing in that we are in a higher league position than a year ago and we have advanced further in two cup competitions.

It’s not success defined by winning trophies but it is success when set against the regular relegation battles that we fought before Moyes became Manager.

What most people find hard to take is your black and white outlook on the situation, if we aren’t winning trophies then we are automatically shite. You make no concession to our financial resources compared to our peers nor what the injuries or the ANC have done to the team this season.

I admire your passion for Everton but all success is relative and in those terms we are doing well when set against the teams around us with similiar or bigger resources. In case you hadn’t noticed we are not the Mersey Millionaires anymore and we are not going to be in the near future, the world has moved on and unfortunately for us we have missed the boat primarily due to the fact that we were in a piss poor position when the Premier League was set up and our failure until recently to compete at the higher end of the Premier League.

We are making progress under Moyes and as long as that continues I for one will continue to support him. When we stop making progress you may one day have a point but until that time I suggest that you refrain from posting your outlandish views.
Brian Waring
45   Posted 15/04/2008 at 15:53:04

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FFS lad, Moyes has been here 6 year?s now, and hasn?t come close to winning a trophy! You all have short memories. As I have said before, apart from the few game?s this season, for the rest of Moyes time here, we have played some of the shittest football I have seen from an Everton side. You are all happy in your own little world?s with your nice little cup run?s and top 10 finishes. Maybe at the end of the day, some of us want a better return on Moyes?s 6 years here. And don?t start with all the, "they?ve got more money than us" shite, it?s not as if Moyes? hasn?t spent money. Moyes may be a good motivator (apparently ) but tactically, he is inept.
Brian Richardson
46   Posted 15/04/2008 at 16:30:00

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Tony, you can’t just quote "nis satis nisi optimum" or "school of science" at us and expect us to interpret it as a coherent argument. Listen, we all want to be top of the league. We all want to win the Champions League. You haven’t got a monopoly on ambition. But just because we have Nis Satis Nisi Optimum on our shirts it does not mean we magically have the funds to achieve this.

None of us is satisfied with 5th. We all want better. But most of us are intelligent enough to see that Moyes is doing an astonishingly good job for our club. We understand the game well enough to see how far we have come and how we are continuing to progress.

Brian Waring, can you explain why we aren’t allowed to point out the financial discrepancies between Everton and the four teams above us? Not to mention the 7 or 8 other teams in the league who have spent more than us in the last 3 or 4 years. In any business, spending money gives you a greater chance of success.

Moyes isn’t perfect, I can’t think of a manager who is. Christ, I know several Man Utd supporters who think Alex Ferguson doesn’t know how to time his substitutes well. But anybody who knows anything about this game recognises the remarkable job David Moyes has done, turning a relegation-threatened team into a top 5 team in just a few years.

As I said, Tony, you don’t have a monopoly on ambition. I want success as much as anybody and I’m desperate for the next trophy. Where we’re different is that I don’t launch vitriolic attacks on the man who has masterminded our rejuvenation. Without him I imagine we’d be in the Championship, battling it out with the likes of Ipswich. Instead, our squad improves every year, we have played some of our best football in more than a decade this season, we are on for our highest ever points total in the Premier League and I managed to travel to 3 away games in Europe this year. I want more next year, but attacking the man who has brought us to this stage will not help. Success doesn’t come overnight. It doesn’t necessarily come in 7 or 8 years, unless you buy it. No, I’m not satisfied with 5th. But neither am I stupid enough to think we have some divine right for anything better right now. Our club was brutally punished for 15 years and it is only under David Moyes’ care that the wounds have started to heal. I just can’t wait to see the rejuvenation completed.
Joe McMahon
47   Posted 15/04/2008 at 17:11:36

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Yes the football was dire under Walter, but he didn’t have anything like, 6million or 8.5 millions to waste on Beattie and AJ.

The football was horrible, but he also had to sell his best players. He did however like moyes share the same passion for defensive dire tactics.

To the person who said Aresenals form is like hours, the results say so, but they play lovely football at times, and also with justice with Penalties would be still with an outside chance of the title, and in the semis of the Champs League.
Basshar Moussa
48   Posted 15/04/2008 at 17:11:57

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Mr.Corcoran Sir surely us getting beat by such a poor Fulham site despite the jinx only reinforces old Tony’s rant.
Brian Waring
49   Posted 15/04/2008 at 18:35:03

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The reason is Brian, is that when we were winning games, people came on here and stated that we were showing the other sides you don?t need to spend million?s to have a good side. But, as soon as we are playing shite, and some of us have a go at Moyes and the team, people start coming on, with the "they?ve got more money than us " card. You can?t have it both ways.
Brian Richardson
50   Posted 15/04/2008 at 18:49:30

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Brian, I agree, you can?t have it both ways. I don?t recall anybody saying we could win the league without money - many people observed that David Moyes?s side have achieved a great deal and have played some top football without money, but it is unlikely we could take it to the next stage without an injection of cash.

So, bearing in mind the fact that I do not want to have it both ways, do you still think I have no right to point out that Moyes has accomplished something very special considering the financial constraints? If so, you owe Mr Moyes an apology.
Mike Allison
51   Posted 15/04/2008 at 18:55:05

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He’s not having it both ways. Whichever way you look at it, whilst we’re doing well or (relatively) struggling, Moyes has done a great job whilst spending less money than many other teams in the league. Of course money matters, that;s what makes it even more remarkable that we have done so well.

There’s still no answer to the ’positive’ challenge I set Tony. What would be good enough? Which manager will provide it? How can we expect it to happen?
Paul Hardcastle
52   Posted 15/04/2008 at 19:05:46

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Mike, for me it’s that Moyes has done okay in patches. But could do so much better, I fully understand the frustration Marshy feels as a Blue, watching the shite being played out in front of us now, and the huge disappointment to me, again and again it seems over the last 6 years, is the old old question: Why does Moyes tolerate this crap from his players? Or does he instruct them (God forbid) to play like this???

Challenging Marshy to solve our problems is not the answer. Challenging Moyesey to solve them is. And that’s what Tony does pretty effectively. If we played so well at times during the season, why is it so unreasonable to ask them to keep it together for the last quarter of the season? Moyes is the only one who can make the difference and right now he ain’t doing it.
Mike Allison
53   Posted 15/04/2008 at 19:33:49

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I just don’t think Tony Marsh does anything effectively except whinge and antagonise. He’s totally unbalanced and lacks any kind of reasonable perspective. He’s ridiculously hyperbolic. Its not even necessarily what he’s saying but the way he says it. He writes extremely aggressively and it is all negative. This does no good whatsoever, it is pointless. He is not challenging anyone. If Moyes were to read a Tony Marsh article, he would probably pack it in around the second line (in this case where the word ’crisis’ came up). No-one is going to take him seriously while he’s so bizarrely negative. My challenge stands, if what is happening now is SO bad, and we’re a bunch of ’arse licking morons’ for thinking Moyes and the team have done quite well this season, then what would count as good? Who could make it happen? And how is it going to happen?

PS> I don’t think Moyes needs to be challenged by us, I think he’s set himself the challenge. Every year, slowly but surely, we improve. Our current ’crisis’ (laughable, but Tony used the word) consists of failing to qualify for the Champions League and watching our UEFA cup spot come under threat, due to having run out of fit midfielders. Even then we’d have beaten West Ham but for an errant linesman’s flag.

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