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Should We Stay or Should We Go?

By Adam Cunliffe :  15/04/2008 :  Comments (54) :
I wrote an article about a week or so ago regarding people critiscing Bill Kenwright. The article got what I expected, a mixed bag of comments. Some agreed; some disagreed. Tom Hughes went as far as to respond and I'm glad it got you all debating, I think this one might get a simmilar reaction. There were quite a few posts regarding the proposed move to Kirkby and I'd like to say I'm against it 100%. That's why I never mentioned it in the article.

Let me start by saying I'm 14 years old and from St.Helens. I get called a "wool" by all my scouse mates. I just thought I'd like to give my, and a few of my non-scouse mates' opinions on the subject.

I was gutted when the proposed move to Kings Dock collapsed It looked a great stadium, in the city, and it was something us Evertonians could be proud of. That brings me on to my first point regarding the proposed move.

The fascilities at the "Once in a Lifetime" stadium don't look anything special. Yeah they'll be better than Goodison but to be honest that's not hard. And to be asociated with Tesco isn't that appealing either. "The Tesco Stadium" ... doesn't really go, does it?

My dad however agrees with it. This is the same person who was at the game against Bayern Munich, been to Rotterdam and to Wembley. He taught me all the songs and told me that the Glawdys Street was the end to be. Why, I ask him? "Petrol money," is the response. I'd love to move but only if it was to a Uefa 5-star-rated stadium INSIDE the city. People say it's trivial the fact that Kirkby is not technically inside the city but like a lot of people say, we were the first team in Liverpool and we should be the last to go.

Then there is Stanley Park: the home of football on Merseyside. If Liverpool do move then the Liverpool City Council will have some answering to do. Now I don't know the ins and outs of the council's desicion to say No to us and Yes to them. Bias perhaps and the fact that tourism in Liverpool might go up if LFC can fit more people in. What I'm saying is that if we found a site in Liverpool, surely there must be another one somewhere?

With the crucial game against Chelsea fast aproaching, this provides an opportunity for us fans to show the powers that be why, for now, we shouldn't move ? especially outside the city. If we make an atmosphere that only us Evertonians, scouse or not, can have, we can perhaps change a few people's thinking points on the move.

I know I can't drive now and it will take four or five years before I can, but we are talking about the next 100 years of the greatest footballing institute of all time here. We all know the records Goodison holds and I think it'll be alright for a few more years.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't move IN THE FUTURE. But for now, Goodison will do just fine. Yep, the toilets smell, and if my dad is right the Chang is warm but we go there for 2 hours every two weeks I think it'll suffice 'til the real Once in a Lifetime stadium comes along.

For now, I'm more than satisfied with Goodison; the proposed move to Kirkby should not go ahead. In a few years I'll be more than happy to pay the tenner for petrol if it means I can go to a top-rated stadium but the Kirby move isn't that.

So if we can get the Grand Old Lady to dance on Thursday, it might be a start to Keeping Everton In Our City. Well... my Grandad's city anyway ? he IS scouse.

Reader Comments

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Davey MIlitwitch
1   Posted 15/04/2008 at 18:16:17

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Adam,

Some wise words from a fourteen year old. You have more common sense than a few on here who are probably four times your age (mentioning no names).

What gets me about the ground move is that something so divisive as this issue surely is not right for the future of the club.
To divide such a loyal fanbase can only be bad for the future well being of the team.

We may be laughing at what is happening across the park, but for me we are the biggest laughing stock this side of the watford gap with the boardroom management that we have had.

I like Kenwright but I dont trust Wyness. Kenwright is a great ambassador for the club but not a good chairman. I would love to see an investor who would be happy for Kenwright to stay in charge in the a Rick Parry or Phillip Carter capacity. But getting that investment is obviously very unlikely considering we are such an unattractive proposition.

Anyway, I am going off on one again. We have the neucleus of a great new dawn. We just need to make the right decisions now for the future well being of our team. A future that will be enjoyed by the likes of you Adam, in ten years we COULD be top contenders again, but my biggest fear that if we move to Tesco’s carpark in Kirkby and plunge us even further into debt, this makes us an even uglier investment and we will lose some of the support that makes Everton what we are-the peioples club.
Joe Ludden
2   Posted 15/04/2008 at 18:48:03

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Adam lad - doesnt matter how old you are - we are born not manufactured, we are chosen we do not chose - and your short article proves you are a blue, born and true. How is it that blues so much older and supposedly wiser have somehow lost what you know and cherish. Let me tell you, I am 31, but it feels like i was 14 not so many weeks ago. I love the grand old lady, and I will have to give up the most important part of my life if we move - my Everton. Im a brummie, my Dad is a scouser, served in the army in WWII, then relocated to Brum and raised a family. Everton is in my DNA. I cant change that. I could have been a Villain or a Bham fan, but I cant, my soul is Everton. My Dad and his brothers ever presents at Goodison since the 1930’s - my Grand Dad was a season ticket holder in the 1910’s, he watched William Ralph Dean (dont call him Dixie - he hated the name) notch up 60 league goals. What are we trading such memories for? The TescoDome? Costing us £150m? I would prefer to be relegated at Goodison than Champions in Kirkby. Are any champions made in Kirkby? Champions are made at Goodison. The first purpose built football ground in England. I love every experience I have there. Yes the Chang is crap, it is not a premium ale. I dont care. The hot dogs arent real meat either. Who cares? If prawn sarnies are your flavour, go to Kirkby. If football, pure, simple and traditional is your tonic, never let Goodison be taken from us. Kenwright does not own Everton - we do.
Stephen Kinder
3   Posted 15/04/2008 at 19:29:57

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Spend £100 million on the team instead of this stadium. Start winning things, then you will get an investor with big money coming in who won't sell the clubs soul to a bloody shop, and who will probably get the right investment to redevelop Goodison. Get bloody Wyness out of our club, before he tears us all apart. As Napoleon once said, divide and conquer.
Alex Pat
4   Posted 15/04/2008 at 19:37:01

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Ludden... shouldn?t that read Luddite...
Enjoy life following whatever other team you're going to support when EFC move..
Utter garbage like "I?d rather be relegated at Goodison" shows that you support a ground and not a club... Can?t believe there are still people who think like you!

And as for champions from Kirkby... wasn?t that well known woolyback John Conteh from Kirkby, as was Phil Thompson, Alan Stubbs etc.. I?m sure there are more but my brain hurts after reading your load of bollocks!!..

I bet you think EFC are just a scouse club then don?t you!! Well look at your heroes.. if we take what those anti-kirkby knobs as gospel, ie if it aint inside an arbitrary boundary therefore can?t be scouse... say hello to that other woolyback fron Birkenhead.... DIXIE DEAN.

Tom Hughes
5   Posted 15/04/2008 at 20:27:58

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Alex,
I’d protest just as loudly if the proposed site was Speke or Gilmoss and they’re within the boundary, but almost equally poorly served by public transport. The whole fantasy that is the transport plan exposes the Kirkby location as a farce, and that is why KW is now calling it a "work in progress", whereas before the vote he would quote it as if it were Gospel telling us it will be the most accessible in the country (Then why would it need the biggest park and ride strategy in the country just to get us there? GP doesn’t need one and we all get in on time, nor does anywhere else). Now the experts have had a chance to scrutinise it including Merseytravel (can you believe they were only asked about the park and ride scheme recently?) and they promptly informed them that they cannot supply anything like the numbers required, they don’t exist in the system... INow, no-one is quoting it at all. Yet another vote-winning headline disproven, to be put alongside the stadium for "practically nothing", No plan "B", World class stadium...... all conveniently banished from memory.
Joe Ludden
6   Posted 15/04/2008 at 20:28:14

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Message removed due to unacceptable personal abuse, childish name-calling and general idiocy. 31?? Grow up, lad!
Robert Carney
7   Posted 15/04/2008 at 21:11:25

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Adam, great article. You obviously have a great future in times to come.
What a shame you have to see a response like the one from Joe Ludden.
Whilst I agree with the points he makes against the ex-pat (Kirkby Pun) the language is well over the top.

This club will be dead in the water if this moves takes place. One day we will find out the truth. Wyness seems to have been brought in with the soul remit of the move.

To him it is a professional job from Tesco and whoever. Talk about tunnel vision, one-tracked mind, far too kind words for him and his ilk. Probably also the best salary he has ever earned. Retirement for him; living with a disaster for us. If you follow the site as I believe you do, the apoligist?s will be on next.

I can see you are more than bright enough to see through the lot of them.
Best wishes mate and hope you have as much fun as I have had following the blues. Alas I have no confidence in the future.
Adam Cunliffe
8   Posted 15/04/2008 at 21:30:45

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Cheers Rob, appreciate that. And Joe I?m glad you're passionate, mate. I am too but I dont wan't my article turning into a slanging match, just a debate will do nicely, ta.
Mike Kennedy
9   Posted 15/04/2008 at 21:19:56

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Alex, Joe, calm down lads. You both obviously support Everton you just disagree what is best for the club.

I have had tried to be hard-headed about this and try and convince myself that the Kirkby move makes sense and as Adam says it may in the short tem over Goodison in its present state. But again I agree with Adam lets wait. Our heart and sole is the in the City of Liverpool.

In August last year i went to a wedding on the Isle of Wight. There were Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool... Derby fans even who just got beat 6-0 by them. But that night everyone took the piss out of me cos we just voted to leave our own city. The cuckoo laid its egg and booted us out. Sorry bit pissed but what hurt me most in the last derby was that banner on the Kop saying "It's our City".

Roy Coyne
10   Posted 15/04/2008 at 22:03:01

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Good article, Adam. You have been brought up in a true blue environment; congratulations to your family. Also Joe Ludden agree with every word you wrote you will no doubt notice that you only get insults never a sensible argument, usually we are accused of not wanting to travel or leave the pub. To be honest I now ignore them unless they can say something constructive without quotes from Bully, who is a proven liar ? not just at Everton either.
Rob Jones
11   Posted 15/04/2008 at 22:03:47

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Adam, Same age, different opinion I?m afraid. I understand all the arguments put forward against it, e.g Costs (which BTW is pretty weak), KEIOC (still in the city technically), and various others that are too long to list, but I just can?t help thinking that this will be the financial kickstart that we need to start challenging for top 4 places, probably not through the turn-stiles but let?s face it, if you?re an investor you want brand new facilities, a top team and a top manager. We have 1/2 the brand new facilities (Finch Farm), arguably a top team, and (despite what some people might say) we also have a top manager, even though he?s not perfect.

That said, however, it will be a heartbreaker to leave Goodison after holding a season ticket from the age of 7 up until last season. I?m also worried as stated above that the fanbase has been split so much since the vote, with some particular fans (who I admittedly am not too keen on) being sued by our own club. Whatever the outcome, this situation needs to be resolved because It really is tearing this club apart at the moment.

Here's to a united fanbase at some point in the future...
John Charles
12   Posted 15/04/2008 at 22:44:00

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Problem is Adam building costs runs higher than the rate of inflation, i.e... we couldnt find £30M for Kings Dock (yes, that's all we needed and that's all that stopped us). So now this place is subsidised to £70-90M to us, so in a few years when costs go up again how do we afford it?

It's all about affordability, of course there are more site sin Liverpool and of course we could built the same stadium in Liverpool, but how do we afford it now without Tesco and how do we afford it at greater cost in years time?

Look at Wembley and how much more that cost than the original projected cost because of delays. Look at the Toilet-Bowl and how much more thats costing the RS than they originally projected because of delays - now think our chosen delay would be 5 years again say? What would the cost be then?
Kevin Mitchell
13   Posted 15/04/2008 at 22:27:14

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Adam, I wish you could pass on some of your wisdom to the people who think the grass will be greener in Kirkby.
This move out of the city is so so wrong you really couldn?t make it up. Imagine if it was LFC moving to Kirkby and also imagine the laugh we would be having at them.

I used to speak up for Kenwright, knowing he was doing as much as he could with limited funds... let's face it there wasn?t a queue to displace Johnson, But now I see him as an enemy. If this man gets his way, it will be all over for so many of us.

Rob Jones
14   Posted 15/04/2008 at 22:59:59

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John - nice name lol, agree with what you say just wanna nitpick though lol, that toilet-bowl is our original home it’s just that the RS like wrecking parts of our history.
Jay Harris
15   Posted 15/04/2008 at 23:02:56

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Adam,
First of all, compliments for being the most articulate 14-year-old... certainly on here.
Secondly a great way to start this thread highlighting what it means to be a Blue in YOUR OWN CITY.
I personally lost faith with BK a long time ago when it was announced that Everton?s debt had risen to over £20 million at the same time he was buying Johnson out (with apparently only a £million to his name) for the same amount.

Then the Kings Dock fiasco and subsequent events like Fortress Sports Fund, NTL, ticketing and travel fiascos and transfer cockups have led me to believe this man is not to be trusted with the most enormous change in the club?s history.

I believe the only vision and plan we have at the club is the "Moyes" plan and the board are covering up the cracks in their armoury due to lack of funds and ability.

The only reason they are pushing Kirkby so hard IMO is because you can do an awful lot of creative accounting with £100 to £150 million that you can't do with a £50 million refit at GP.

It can't be right for EFC when it has divided so many blues and it is being championed by a lying buffoon and an incompetent charlatan(you decide which one is which).
Rob Jones
16   Posted 15/04/2008 at 23:53:22

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Thanks for the vote of confidence Jay lol JK, I?ve got to admit I?ve certainly moved further towards wanting neither re-development at Goodison or a move to Kirkby but we simply have to move unless we get a billionaire in before Kirkby. If that happened then I?d encourage either major re-dev on Goodison or a top of the range stadium in Stanley Park, our rightful home.
John Charles
17   Posted 16/04/2008 at 00:33:38

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I voted Yes because I really want to believe in the club, I want to believe it will improve our finances and I want to believe it is the right progressive thing to do.

Many of the current arguements and No voters voted and caused uproar about moving to the Kings Dock... lesson to be learnt... Oh what a good move that would have been
Michael Kenrick
18   Posted 16/04/2008 at 02:51:21

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A couple of points: John Charles, I really don?t remember much real opposition among the fans to Kings Dock. Nearly everyone was on board for that one, even though there was a lingering feeling that perhaps they should at least look at the possibility of redeveloping Goodison Park, rather than dismissing that option out of hand.

Evertonians should never forget how the demise of Kings Dock was spun, and how Paul Gregg?s very sensible "reverse mortgage" was so unjustly pilloried when it would in all likelihood have delivered the project so many saw as a fabulous dream (cost escalation notwithstanding).

And talking of fabulous dreams... Bill Kenwright?s purchase of the club from Peter Johnson in 2000... Jay Harris, I really appreciate a lot of what you post on this site, but I don?t remember anyone at the time raising this £20M debt link to him buying out the club.

I calculated at the time that the True Blue Holdings shares reresented about a £21M and it was reported at the time that the cost that borne roughly equally by Kenwright, Gregs and Woods... Kenwright famously remortgaging his house to raise the funds.

If Kenwright funded the whole buyout as a debt on EFC?s books, then why did he need Gregg, who paid ~£7M for his third.... and who then sold that wedge some years later to Robert Earl for ~£9M? I don?t understand...
Tom Hughes
19   Posted 16/04/2008 at 07:57:19

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John Charles.
I voted for Kings Dock, but no for Kirkby. I think something like 90% voted for KD even with another option illustrated in the voting literature. A far cry from the numbers who voted for Kirkby this time around with no option but doom according to the whole pro-kirkby campaign. Says a lot about the relative merits of Kirkby.
Alan Willo
20   Posted 16/04/2008 at 08:00:21

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I have just renewed my season ticket on line, why because I love Everton and always hope one year the good years will come back for us all. I sit in the paddock with a crap view and no space for my legs. When my son joins me it?s a complete disaster as he can?t move due to the rubbish facilities. I like you all have spent my life inside GP, I was christened at St Lukes and lived a couple of streets away but still I can?t wait to move to a new stadium. I’m off to the Arsenal in a couple of weeks and I’m intrigued as to what the experience will hold. My point is simple the old lady doesn?t have it any longer she is dated and should be cosigned to a museum. I bit like a spitfire being replaced by the Euro Fighter. The latter doesn?t have the panache but its built to do the job in hand more efficiently and affectively. I repeat myself again, PLEASE MOVE THE TESCO PROJECT INTO WALTON PARK!! Can KEIOC and LCC please push avenue its the only way at this late stage we can have a deliverable solution. LCC its over to you?????Bradley do you have a set of balls? Or is the Everton board just a patsy to hide your commitment to LFC? COYB Adam, i dont agree with your view, nevertheless I enjoy your post and your a credit to your parents.
Chris Briddon
21   Posted 16/04/2008 at 09:07:44

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For anybody hesitant about the need to move, I suggest you read Alan Hansens column on the BBC website this week.

He discusses the fact that Liverpool are getting left behind and that they need to move from Anfield to keep pace with the big boys. He admits it would be a wrench to leave but it is a necesary move.

If Liverpool need to move to compete, then we certainly do as we are well behind the big boys (in terms of finance) already.

And as for Adams comment about Tesco, well if you read the news they have just declared an increase in profits of about 10% when all their competitors are struggling, so if you don’t mind me saying so, they seem like pretty good partners to me!
And it has already been stated that the naming rights wont be sold to Tesco
Davey Militwitch
22   Posted 16/04/2008 at 09:54:48

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Chris,

You would have to be soft to take any Hansens opinion on board. Can’t you remember the famous "You will never win anything with kids..." remark?
Same principle could be applied here-we will never win anything with a mediocre stadium...and I am not talking about Goodison. Liverpool have enough foresight to see the importance of staying close to your roots.
Going all Mr Miyagi for a minute, the strongest trees have the strongest roots.
If you take some of the soul out of Goodison (Its fanbase) then I agree it becomes a decrepid shed fit only for demolition. But while we do have the Goodison atmosphere we still stand a chance to hang on for the RIGHT move.
If we do move I would bet that Kirkby will end up being a decrepid shed before my kids are 21 with Everton on a downward spiral, while Bully is enjoying the last of his retirement funds on his Monaco Yacht. I see Liverpool going from strength to strength with their catchment area of the city of Liverpool.

And the sad thing is, we would deserve everything we got.
Mark Stone
23   Posted 16/04/2008 at 10:05:30

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Kirby is miles away, you know. I went there to pick my mate up the other day (ironically we were going to the match). That being said, go and watch Everton v Derby County sat at the back of Gwaldys Street and tell me Goodison Park isn’t a shithole. Here’s a thought - lets have Anfield back since the shite are moving out. Oh no I didn’t ...
Steve Lyth
24   Posted 16/04/2008 at 10:27:10

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Anyone thinking that Everton will develop further at the Tescodrome in Kirkby is extremely foolish, for all the reasons previously published on this forum.
Great article Adam, well done kid.
John Lloyd
25   Posted 16/04/2008 at 12:09:21

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Did anyone read the echo last night about the plans getting chnaged again!! This is the 4th publicised change in the development. It doesn't mention the stadium as such (although the design of that still has not been finalised, so what you voted on I don't know....pretty pictures possibly??) The transport plans are heavily changed again, all I say is let's see the finalised plans (inc stadium) and have another vote.....along the lines of "Heres what we propose, yes or no?"
Better than the original idea of voting on an idea!!!
Phil Brown
26   Posted 16/04/2008 at 13:02:41

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How about starting a campaign to incorporate Kirkby within the City limits! Alan Stubbs seems a bit of a scouser to me.
Chris Briddon
27   Posted 16/04/2008 at 13:11:07

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Davey - for what its worth I actually respect Hansens point of view on a number of issues - His ’never win anything with kids remark was made after United sold a number of established stars, replaced them with youth team products and proceeded to get played of the park by Villa on the opening day of the season. Numerous others - including many Man Utd supporters thought the same thing, they just weren’t asked to comment that evening on national television.

My point was that, as someone with excellent memories of a stadium, he still felt moving was the right decision and could see past the emotional attachment that too many people seem to have to Goodison Park.

I was at Pride Park on Saturday and it was an enjoyable experience to have a drink before the game and watch the match in comfort with no restriction on my views. There ground certainly isn’t some souless shell that people seem to think new stadiums are guaranteed to be either.
John Murphy
28   Posted 16/04/2008 at 13:03:29

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I have said it for a while now, but does anyone think that Stanley Park is big enough for 2 stadiums?
Alan Willo
29   Posted 16/04/2008 at 13:39:10

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Stop all this crap about SP who applied for what. RS had better planning than EFC board, what a load of rubbish! How could EFC make plans to put the stadium next door to Anfield, come on smell the coffee it would never have happened so we had to look at our side of the park. Can you imagine the problems of moving EFC to Anfield district!!!!! As usual all against views completely one sided. PUT THE TESCO PROJECT IN WALTON PARK!! Answer is already there for all to action on, plans already done just a study of the transport but technically its completely deliverable so why all this other crap!!! That why I?m so against the no?s because to date I have never seen a deliverable option other than Kirkby or Walton Park with Tesco. If you put that across then Yes voters like me may start backing you and giving the no?s some credibility. COYB
Colin Grierson
30   Posted 16/04/2008 at 13:28:37

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Good article Adam.

Divide and conquer has been the strategy all along mate. We can only hope that Kirkby doesnt happen cos I really don’t think the club, as we know it, will survive.
Jay Harris
31   Posted 16/04/2008 at 15:14:32

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Michael
I have only just picked up your query.

I agree Gregg put up 7million but
I believe the actual stated debt that year was 28 miilion.

Some was repaid out of the securitisation of gate receipts later that year and then Rooney was subequently sold raising another 10 miilion.

I think I have a copy of the report and accounts somewhere so I will go back and double check and then publish the official figures.
Jay Harris
32   Posted 16/04/2008 at 15:28:28

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Michael
I should add that legal and accounting fees probably accounted for another couple of miilion as well and I couldnt see Johnson agreeing to fund it out of his proceeds.
Jay Harris
33   Posted 16/04/2008 at 15:31:06

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Sorry to labour the point but I think that was also the year the accounts were posted late.

Then we had the farce of Trevor Birch, a highly rated insolvency expert, joining as Chief Executive for about 6 weeks then mysteriously resigning.

I am afraid, as always under BK, there are more questions than answers.
Jay Harris
34   Posted 16/04/2008 at 15:36:52

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Last post before I become utterly boring (some might say I already have).

But here is a statement that suggests that rather than looking for investment 24/7 BK was looking to avoid investment 24/7.

The stadium cost, for the avoidance of doubt, is stated to be around £130 million of which EFC will find £78 million from an assortment of Loans, leaving a shortfall of £52 million to be found!!!

This is the revelation in the Tesco statement accompanying the Kirkby application that Everton's directors WILL NOT consider selling their shares.

" 6.10 A further point that is of relevance to any debate on the options that might be available to the Club to fund a new stadium, is the willingness and abilities of the Club?s directors to sell some or all of their interests in the Club in order to attract an investor who or which might have the ability in financial terms to fund a new stadium in its entirety or at the very least fund the shortfall that exists in the context of this proposals. As is pointed out in greater detail in the financial statement document 26), this is not an option as the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club."

I have always maintained that the reason Kirkby was being pushed so hard was that if you get £100 million mortgage it enables an awful lot of cracks to be papered over!

Does this mean that despite his consistent claims, Bill Kenwright wasn?t searching for investment "24/7" after all?

No wonder BK and Bully have gone quiet over Kirkby.

Now will BKites start to believe the man is a compulsive charlatan.

Evertonians, you decide.
Jay Harris
35   Posted 16/04/2008 at 15:44:58

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Alan Willo
totally agree with you.

If we are building a new stadium Walton Hall Park should definitely be considered.

I personally think GP can be developed more economically and over time and would be owned by EFC on land owned by EFC but that would not enable the borrowings that a new build would attract and that seems to be the desire of our "Penniless" board.
roy p warne
36   Posted 16/04/2008 at 16:22:32

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why have you deleted my post?
Joe Ludden
37   Posted 16/04/2008 at 20:28:17

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Apologies to Adam, Robert Carney et al for my post which has now been removed, and I appreciate those words of agreement from some posts above - regards the points i made not the way i made them. In my defense, I was mid way through a nice bottle of wine when I sent the post, and I cannot be held accountable for abusive language when I am replying to "someone" who quotes Phil fucking Thompson in a post on an Everton website. I realise I swore, but surely this name dropping is worse?? Who?s monitoring this sutff anyway?

Ultimately I stand by my post, but as someone who is desperately trying not to use expletives at the game, I cannot justify using it on this site. Unreservered apologies to all who read it.

That said, those Toffees following BK and KW blindly into the Kirkby wilderness, please understand what you are losing. 10 years from now, BK and KW long gone, where do we belong? An add on to a Tesco store in a satellite town outside the city, or at GP - the first purpose built football ground in England. Yes I'd prefer to see us relegated at GP than champions in Kirkby - but both are the worst possible scenarios in life. Kirkby! Even the B'ham fans down here are taking the mickey.

Anyhoe, apologies, and Adam, nice article. I mirror the sentiments of Roy Coyne - you have had a true blue upbringing and one you should feel proud of. I am extremely proud of my blue family.
Michael Kenrick
38   Posted 17/04/2008 at 04:56:45

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Joe, thanks for posting that apology.

?Tis I who who is monitoring this stuff. If I clamped down on every post that had a smidgeon of the Liverpoolk fixation (eg Phil Thompson), there?d be very little left TBH. Personally I hate and despise the Liverpool fixation, and bin a number of posts that have no Everton content.

Talking of content, it wasn?t the swaring per se... I don?t give a shit about that. All part and parcel of our healthy Anglo-Saxon heritage if you ask me...

No, it?s the direct personal abuse that is totally unnacceptable. No matter how pissed/riled you are, there is no excuse for it and I will not tolerate it. Hope that clears up any confusion, and thanks again for posting an apology ? it IS appreciated.
Albert Dock
39   Posted 17/04/2008 at 09:34:15

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What is this obsession about stadia all about?

Last time I looked, the Premiership table did not show bonus points for having an interesting cantilever support system cunningly enhanced by a neo-Georgian facade.

If we were winning the title by February every year I would happily stand on an old railway sleeper with the rain dripping down my back.

I wouldn?t care if the pies were cold and the beer warm. Can?t people go a whole ninety minutes without troughing?

Travelling back from Birmingham on Saturday not one person used the toilets on the train. Do you have to go to Goodison for a piss?

As has been stated here before the country is awash with souless new grounds. Do we need one more? More importantly do we want to have it as our home?

Is it beyond the collective brains at Goodison to fix those thing that are wrong and leave alone those that don?t need fixing?

It could be done if someone wanted to do it. They don?t. Why?
Michael Brien
40   Posted 17/04/2008 at 11:48:30

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Adam - I am here in Lincoln - an exiled Evertonian,having my lunch at my desk in the office.No I won’t look at ToffeeWeb I said to myself as i am going to have a short lunch.......but then I read your article. What a fine article, you have certainly given us all some food for thought there and also well done for your reply when you stated that you didn’t want your article turning into a slanging match just a debate.
Very wise words indeed, I think that at times things have got a bit overheated to say the least.
Like you I was very disappointed that the Kings Dock project didn’t succeed, it looked a brilliant stadium and I thought the location was great.
I hope that we don’t get side tracked like our dear neighbours, with the stadium debate causing divisions within the club and supporters.

To digress a little - BK may not be everyone’s favourite chairman - but he is 100 times better than the previous bloke.Mega investment would be great - but I would be very careful - Man City have got themselves a mega rich "sugar daddy" - who now seems to want to get rid of Erikson, after less than a year in charge and one of their best seasons in ages!!!
I still hope that we can find another site in the city.I am saddened that we missed an opportunity to develop Goodison in 1994, with a two tier Park Stand.
Great article Adam - I am 50 an Evertonian since I was 7 - Your Dad may (if he was old enough to go to Goodison around 1972-3) remember a couple of players from that era - Rod Belfitt and Bernie Wright.Without doubt the 2 worst strikers to play for Everton,possibly the 2 worst strikers in the history of the top division!!
Everton have had some ups and downs in our history-but I hope that when you are driving yourself to the game we are enjoying one of our successful periods.Cheers.
Anthony Wordlethorpe
41   Posted 17/04/2008 at 15:33:16

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The point made earlier with regards to the Kings Dock move having the support of the majority of Evertonians is indeed true. The principal reason was that it was a move to a flagship stadium in the heart of the city, something to be proud of. If we are to move this great club from its roots it can only be to a stadium the envy of most, not a mid range stadium in a supermarket car park!

The main problem I have, however, as with many things to do with our club at this time, is that I don?t actually expect anything to happen anyway! The move to the Kings Dock was a fantasy, conveniently avoided due to finance and permission. Our bargain switch to Kirby would now appear to be floundering as the cost to the club has increased from £0 to £78m. Once again finance may prove a convenient get out to a fantasy move!

The problem rests in the fact that the commercial decision makers at the club are ?mid range? at best. If they spent as much time focusing on realistic opportunities as they do in the world of make believe we may actually achieve something. Our medium and long term financial planning leaves much to be desired, a fact I am sure is not lost on our manager, who is seeking assurances over available funding for new signings.

I love this club and have done for 25 years. I am growing increasingly tired of playing second fiddle to the so called ?big four?. Despite an old tired ground, incompetent commercial management and only average team investment we remain the only team to have broken the top fours stranglehold on the league. With a bit more luck we may have repeated the achievement again this year. Imagine what could be achieved with some real commercial vision. Mr Kenwright, over to you, the time for some tough decision making has arrived.

Max Wright
42   Posted 17/04/2008 at 16:21:38

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Ill be honest with you I was all for the move, moving to Kirkby wasn’t that much of an Issue althought would have loved to stay nearby and I only 5mins walk from goodison. Whats changed my mind since? I was blinded by the thought of a world class stadia. Unfortunatly the kirkby stadium just isn’t world class. I wouldnt want the kirby stadium if it was sitting on the site of goodison park, so thats the reason to abandon the kirby idea. We should be aiming for an Emigrates or an Old Trafford stadia, not something which is hardly better than what weve got at the moment.
Neal King
43   Posted 17/04/2008 at 15:47:47

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Can I just say that Man Utd take more than a million pounds more than us every home game through the turnstiles, that's 18 million at least a season.
We need to move without a doubt as were losing a lot of revenue each season, I just dont think the Kirkby project is the best option, I?m sure there must be other suitable sites within the boundaries and if not then the design, and ambition of the Kirkby site needs to be improved an awful lot.
Albert Dock
44   Posted 17/04/2008 at 17:06:09

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There are already far too many divergent threads on the stadium topic and I do not wish to add to that number so I will ask my question here.

What, if any, are the club’s stated objections to the development of the Goodison site?

To facilitate any development on the site what would be the response of both the club and its fans to ground sharing for part of a season?

If it meant a great New Goodison then surely a couple of trips to Maine Road or elsewhere would be a price worth paying.
Neal King
45   Posted 17/04/2008 at 19:05:39

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We wouldnt be able to afford to do Goodison up, it would take at least a full season and we would miss out on a lot of gate revenue as I've previously mentioned. Why can people not realise shutting goodison for a season would do us more harm than good in the long run?
Joe Ludden
46   Posted 17/04/2008 at 19:36:04

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Open your eyes Neal - Robert Earl has stated in the December AGM 2007 that Kirkby will cost Everton 150 million pounds. How much would a GP redevelopment cost? Oh we dont know cus theres no plan B. Why not? Why only one very bad plan? Any other business go in with just a plan A and no fall back? Would we fill Old Trafford every week? I bet you ten english sterling pounds its not a sell out tonight. It hurts me to say it, but we aint gunna get 55,000 bums on seats in a plastic stadia in Kirkby to watch us draw 0-0 with Fulham.

Question everything. If in doubt, ask Tom Hughes and others for their professional opinions. Dare I say it, "the truth is out there".
Jeff Spiers
47   Posted 17/04/2008 at 21:02:22

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Mark Stone, why not? Let the RS build their stadium.We redevelop Anfield [our original HOME] while still at GP. Move back.OR their is land available [this from a reliable source] next to Taskers in Aintree. Dont laugh, fellow blues. Kirkby, no way! COYB
Joe Ludden
48   Posted 18/04/2008 at 07:34:58

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Jeff makes a good point. Anfield will be vacant soon so we could move in for 2 or 3 seasons while GP is redevelped. Of course the ground would be altered first, take the kop out and stick in a 2 tier stand, replace all red with blue etc and advertise our history from the rooftops - first league champions at anfield 1891/2, the shyte being a spin off of us, calling themselves Everton until the FA intervened etc and so on.

Its a plan B which - regardless of if you like it or not, is more than KW has come up with and he gets paid £400,000 a year to think of this stuff. This is a deliverable option which negates the loss of capacity during rebuild and Im willing to wager wont cost as much as 150m squid.

I?m not so much anti Kirkby as anti moving from GP at all. I just dont understand why suddenly after all these years, everyone have all agreed that GP is not good enough and that we need more boxes and conference facilities. We are football fans aren?t we. Yes lets redevelop and get better toilet facilities etc but is a move really the only way to achieve this? Really? It just seems so strange that KW tried this type of thing at Aberdeen and didnt get his way. And that was Aberdeen! We are Everton.
Patty Beesley
49   Posted 18/04/2008 at 11:12:51

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Everton never have Plan B for a football match, how can you expect them to have a Plan B for stadium facilities!!!
Jay Harris
50   Posted 18/04/2008 at 14:50:27

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Joe, that's fine but it doesn't create the Gravy train for some that Kirkby does and it doesn't create a £100 million plus mortgage for some very creative accounting possibilities.
That's why there?s no plan B.
Reuben Leach
51   Posted 18/04/2008 at 14:45:16

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I live in Wellingborough, Northants these days. Grew up in Bangor, North Wales. This is a debate that is always going to have differing opinions.

I love Goodison. I sat there last night watching the match against Chelsea, floodlights on and a couple of times found myself looking up to the heavens. When you?re in there you feel like you in the centre of the universe.

Goodison is something magical to us. At some point we are probably going to have to let Goodison go. We?d all prefer for Goodison to be redeveloped. At the moment that seems unlikely. We like to bang on about the Kings Dock but that?s been and gone and isn?t going to happen.

The other lot from across the park get to build their shiny new stadium a bit up field from where we wanted to build ours. Maybe there?s a reason they were allowed other than they are more ?liked? by the council than us. Who knows.

All I know is that things change. People don?t really like change. It?s in our nature. But Kirkby or Walton I?ll travel to see Everton play at home as often as possible (I?m not a season ticket holder) until I simply can?t anymore.

The Tesco link to the new stadium is unfortunate. But who else is going to back us to get what we need to safeguard the clubs future? If someone out there can give a better option then I?ll be pleased to hear it.

Bestway? The Scotland Road Loop is so many peoples favoured option but there are also lots of questions as to how feasible it is. All I know is that there are lots of questions and too many opinions. It has to be said that the club hasn?t really done enough to make the majority of us feel at ease with any move.

One last note. I hope this doesn?t detract from what I?ve just written but people often say they love Goodison and because of that they can like with the poor facilities (toilets, queues for Hotdogs and Chang etc) But the club as a whole can?t live with that. Things like the half time sales are a money spinner. At the moment it?s a struggle to get served at half time if you get stuck at the back of a queue.

People find it hard to swallow but Football is big business these days. We need money to survive. Our club needs those facilites that people say they can ?live? with to survive. You could say. Our club in future will find it hard to survive without those facilites that we are prepared to grin and bear.

Joe Ludden
52   Posted 18/04/2008 at 15:40:57

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I know Jay, we sing from the same hymn sheet. The other article on the £78m on this site is soul destroying. Here we have the lies on a financial statement for all to see, and us realists are still having to debate things with the yes voters. Heads, wall, banging. I’m just about ready to give up - not on Everton - but the idea that our support is born and not manufactured. How is it they aren’t as angry as us?
Jeff Spiers
53   Posted 19/04/2008 at 07:44:04

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Thanks Joe, good feedback. GP, as it stands, has facilities that urgently need attention. But forgive my ignorance, how often is GP used? 19 league games, god knows how many cup games, if were lucky! Let's say games in total: 30 plus; that averages less than 1 game a week, 2 hours give or take. I could live with the crappy toilets.

I remember when I took my daughter to her first match at GP (v Coventry) Cobi Jones, the American, was playing for them. And we got beat! Anyway as we took our seats in the Gwladys St, she looked up and around the ground and said "Dad, we?re in our home".

Later on in years we were in our seats on a cold and very thundery wet night v Man City, only a few short weeks after my father had died, she grabbed my arm and whispered "grandad is here".

I won't say sorry if, my fellow blues, this is sentimental tosh to you, but EFC is family. COYB

Joe Ludden
54   Posted 19/04/2008 at 08:53:16

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Agreed Jeff - I have similar memories of GP only I’m the kid in the story, not my father. My Grand Dad was an ever present from the 1910’s onward, my Dad in the 1930s, me by the 1980’s, so I am desperate to stay at GP. It is home and it is part of our club. It’s not just somewhere where we play our home games. Add on its history and records and you have something worth more than just the deeds bricks and mortar. I dont quite understand the urgency to solve the GP problem - because like you Im not entirely convinced of what the problem is. Yes the facilities are shoddy, and I often leave GP with a pocket full of cash Id prefer to have spent on Chang if I could have got served in time, but these are things that can be fixed easily and not something that requires a 130m move. I wont follow us to Kirkby, I know some fans think that means Im not a Evertonian, but for me, its a necessary evil. A mid quality stadia attached to a tesco store - what have we become. Thats not the Everton I was brought up supporting. Anyone disagreeing with me will have to take it up with my Dad! :-D

On a tangent - does anyone else spend less on Everton now than they used to? The quality and quantity of merchandise stock available to buy is getting worse year on year. I am saving boat loads of cash not getting the Everton stuff I want, and the club requires urgent investment?? Who’s running the show anyway? BK/KW. I must have saved around £1000 this season on various purchases I simply cannot get from the club anymore.

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