I won't be going to Kirkby, you take my Everton to Kirkby and they cease to be my Everton. My Everton plays in Liverpool. Me and my Everton have a history together. That History is our bond.
My experiences with my Everton are my memories. My memories are in Liverpool. L4 to be exact. Yes, I've been to Wembley, Abroad to other stadiums but my Everton always go home. Home is in Liverpool.
If you take my Everton from Liverpool, the memories will remain but the bond will no longer be there. Dean, Ball, Labone, Kendall, Sharp, Southall, Harvey, Young, Pele, Jairzinho, Eusabio... all played at Goodison.
Goodison grabs you when you enter it. The hairs stand on your neck just looking a the place, imagining being there when that 60th went in. Being there when Stuart score against Wimbledon, watching Reidy with his dyed hair lift the League Championship trophy...
They are all great memories, some bad memories too. But they happend to me at Goodison and it's my Everton that will be taken away from me if we move to Kirkby because my Everton Play in Goodison Park.
When will KW and BK reallise that Goodison Park is what makes Everton? Not the other way around.......
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1 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:58:24
Finally we get to the key point here.
that Goodison Park is what makes Everton? Not the other way around.......
You see the problem here?
Goodison Park does NOT make Everton. Everton were here before Goodison Park, and will be here long after Goodison Park has fallen into ruin. The football team are the important bit here not the concrete around them.
If this is the attitude of supporters, the club will never be able to move on anywhere, as no stadium will ever be Goodison Park. We might as well stay here and resign ourselves to years of mediocrity together with a slow decline into the lower reaches of football as the elite pass us by!
2 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:56:12
What?s the betting though that we won?t get some people come on here to pull you to bits instead of just letting it go and seeing it for what it is... an understandable outpouring of emotion around what is potentially going to be the darkest day in our club?s glorious history (opinion expressed there folks, not fact).
3 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:17:42
John is typical of the Everton fan who will be on here in a week bemoaning the fact we haven?t signed anyone yet. For him, his Everton is a fantasy where, despite the fact that our ground is in terminal decline and costing more to upkeep each year that passes, we can stay competetive.... because.... erm.... because.... well we just should be able to.
If we can't then it's the board's or the manager's fault and they should be sacked!.
IF we do move, and I don't believe we will as I dont think we can afford Kirkby anymore than we can afford to do up Goodison properly, he wont be missed as lot's of people who find it hard to get to Goodison now, and don't go regularly, will get their chance.
If some people can't be bothered to travel 6 miles or so to see the team they profess to love, when others travel dozens if not hundreds of miles for the privilege, who cares about them. They aren't true fans anyway.
4 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:22:13
5 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:21:05
I voted for Everton to Leave Goodison to what would have been IMO the modern day Goodison, the kings Dock. Now you want me to leave behind all the memories I have amassed personally during my time watching Everton to go to fucking kirkby then you can go fuck right off. Goodison was built to be better than Anfield and it was. In our history when we move, we move to something better. We didn’t have to move from Goodison for more than 100 years. If we do have to move or redevelop (my preference) it’s got to be something better than we already have something which will conjure those memories and highlight those experiances and before you spout about a "brand new" stadium, we will not be getting better than what we have now. As far as I am concerned and plenty more like me. Going to Kirkby will, and I Quote "resign ourselves to years of mediocrity together with a slow decline into the lower reaches of football as the elite pass us by!"
6 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:23:22
that’s typical of the modern materialistic attitude.
If you could renovate a vintage car you’d had all your life for the cost of buying a brand new basic bottom of the range poorly manufactured car I guess your approach would be let the old car rot.
GP can be renovated to a better standard than Kirkby without all the disadvantages for the same cost.
Now why would any sane Evertonian choose Kirkby?
7 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:41:14
where exactly is your proof that Goodison can be improved to be better than Kirkby for less cost????
this seems to suggest otherwise
8 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:37:00
Tell you what, save it mate, and we will rejoin this ?debate? when the real recriminations start and even the club?s fantastic supporters will start tearing themselves apart over this if it goes ahead and the club slides into obscurity.
Good analogy Jay, but they?re not listening ? they want Kirkby.
9 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:51:11
just read the redeveloping Goodison report by Ward McHugh on the home page of TW rather than the acknowledged bullshit by EFC.
If it could be done for 40 million in 2000 and construction inflation has gone up by approximately 80% since nevermind the current slump then as sure as eggs are eggs it can be done for 80 million now.
And it ends up with a capacity of 55000 as opposed to the 50401 that Kirkby is restricted to (or 32200 if you take the transport report into account).
10 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:52:17
I wrote a piece a while back. Night we played the Arsenal kids in the carling cup to be exact.
Along the same lines, they won?t listen. It?s todays want it now at all costs society.
You know the type.
Buy all the expensive Xmass prezzies on the drip and spend the next 12 months paying for them.
I like you will not go to Kirkby. They day they move us is the day I lose what I love most in football.
11 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:51:14
12 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:06:07
What does the club have to gain by moving us to Kirkby if, like you say, Goodison can be done better and for less???
13 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:09:33
Imagine watching Everton, dodging your head every so often because a bloody obstructed view post got in the way of another good piece of action.
Imagine a club, seated next to a spaceship built by clowns, where our corporate hospitallity is a tent (oh, sorry Marquee).
Imagine a building getting more expensive to run, and someone suggests we move 4 Bloody miles away and everyone goes ape shit.
In my Everton (as it's not the exclusive preserve of the vocal, but minority No vote), Everton are forward looking, want a stadia which makes more money rather than sqeeze its margins.
What makes Everton is the fans and the team. Its not the ground who have hairs on the back of their neck the first time you hear Z Cars, it's not the ground who really rock on a night game, it's not the ground who sing until exhausted.
It's the fans - and we fans - both Yes and No camp, deserve better than the status quo, whether it be a re-developed Goodison, or Kirkby.
Just to emphasis, I am a bit annoyed of this sily tactic of trying to claim Everton as some exclusive preserve of the No camp. It's not.
14 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:20:15
No money for something better, then lets stay where we are until something better comes along & dont give me this Goodison is falling down shit, its not. Fact is its fine, little outdated and not the biggest but fine and will be for a few years yet.
Fuck Kirkby, fuck tesco, fuck cherryfield drive. Its shite.......
15 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:24:50
IF you could renovate Goodison to be as big and with as many facilities as a new stadium for the same price or less I would go with it every time.
But do you not think that if we could we would!
Why go through all the hastle & problems associated with a move if we could re-develop the one we have sufficiently?
The honest answer is that I believe we can?t stay so have to go somewhere else.
If you have a vintage car, sooner or later there comes a point where it costs too much money to make it chugg down the road at 20 mph when everybody else is in their new cars doing 70 or 80.
And John Hughes - no its you who miss the point. I accept that Goodison has a lot of history, but that is now all in the past. I am more concerned with the Everton of the future and ensuring that we still have one in 20 or so years time.
16 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:32:16
GM ? See me!
17 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:27:58
It makes the hair stand up like nothing else can. It brings so much emotion that nothing else matters anywhere else in the world. It is what I like to call my happy place.
People should realise that we go there once every two weeks or so for about 26 times a year (Including cup games)... If the toilets stink, hold it in. If the Chang is warm, don?t drink it.
But no matter what happens behind the scenes the football is what matters and the football recently at The Grand Old Lady has been fantastic.
A bit of perspective is needed. Kirkby is a quick fix to problem that doesn?t exist. In fact it will probably create even more problems in the future so I?m inclined to agree with John Lloyd on this one...
Fuck Kirkby, Fuck Tesco and Fuck Cherryfield Drive. Shite is putting it mildly.
18 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:35:44
"But do you not think that if we could we would?"
Well Chris the key word in your question is ’we’.
You see sadly, there is no we.
Instead there is Wyness, who won’t get his bonus if ’we’ stay.
That is why even if ’we’ could, he wouldn’t.
19 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:30:57
It appears that there are some people that do not support Everton but in fact support Goodison Park. Is this because it is local to you and Kirkby will mean you have to get off your lazy arse to go watch the team?!
I am not a huge fan of moving to Kirkby if i am honest, and yes GP has a lot of great memories, but if it is going to help EFC in the long term then we have to move. The only reason GP has all those great memories is because that is where our Everton play. In another 100 years we could all be talking of the great memories amassed at Kirkby, or wherever we end up, because that will be where we watched Everton.
I for one will continue to support the football club, not the stadium. Would you give up on or suddenly not support your children if they decided to leave home after 20 years???
20 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:56:15
Also, if we were to redevelop Goodison Park, how will they go about it? I’m not saying its impossible but to modernise the Old Lady, you’d have to shut down each stand as you reconstruct it.
21 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:51:47
IMO the major reason behind the move to Kirkby besides KW?s fat bonus is twofold.
1. BK will not get off his arse to LOOK for alternatives he wants to be "presented" with them.
2. The £100 million that will end up being borrowed for Kirkby will facilitate some real creative accounting that redeveloping GP in phases does not.
Now that is my opinion not fact but I firmly believe that can be the only logic behind this farcical move that doesnt tick any boxes.
Limited to 50,401 capacity by law
Major Transport and infrastructure problems
Poor design and build quality
Virtually eliminates walk up support
Major debt incurred
Benefits third parties far more than EFC
Has to be given over to KMBC over 100 times a year
NO HISTORY WHATSOEVER
22 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:05:32
GP as it stands has a bigger footprint than St James Park which holds 53000 and if it included the old school area would have a bigger footprint than the emirates.
Not only Ward McHugh but many Architects and/or engineers have demonstrated that GP can be redeveloped for similar costs to Kirkby.
KSS were also the people (Employed by KW)that said the loop could only hold 35000 and that GP could only hold 37000 but were then proven wrong by HOK (world renowned stadium architects).
So it’s a question of whether you believe the constant stream of bullshit emanating from GP or the facts presented by reputable organisations with no beneficial interest.
23 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:02:58
Good luck to youse who will, no malice here at all, but my Everton is a football team, not a franchise and I still don't see how Kirkby will enable us to buy better players than Lescott, Yobo, Arteta, Pienaar & Cahill?
I think it's sad and a mistake to leave but football is business these days and maybe I?m better off without it!
Rooney was the first nail, Kirkby will be the final one.
24 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:09:25
Its your Everton is it now John Hughes? Stop using the term Liverpool it makes me sick! Were from Merseyside and Kirkby is just as much scouse as L4.
Honest John Hughes if your telling me cos were playing in Kirkby then you're not going then you're a fool who?ll miss out on EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB.
I bet when you was a kid if you had to go in goal you?d take your ball and go home (which is probably L4). Stop throwing your toys out the pram. Either learn to drive or get a bus to the game.
Nobody has talked about the potential history we will create in a new home!!! CUE slagging me off for not loving L4 more than John.
25 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:07:20
We are not going to get a mortgage of £100mn in today?s climate. No-one?s going to lend that to a club who?s profitability is as poor as ours (not that we?re anywhere near the worst in the division mind).
Who is it who?s going to pay Wyness this bonus that everyone keeps talking about by the way? The construction group? Tesco? Or is it a fantasy to allow some of you lot to vent at the fat cat?
26 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:16:47
I don?t think that John was meaning anything bad by it and you're right David we are from Merseyide and Kirkby is just as much scouse as Liverpool but to me that?s not the point. The point is we?ll be leaving something behind that has so many cherished memories.... And for what?
A mid-range stadium with no atmosphere. Where chanting is prohibited because it might disturb the corparate hospitality. We had some cracking nights last season. Chelsea and Fiorantina. The results weren?t the best but by god the atmosphere there was like nothing I?ve ever witnessed before at an Everton game.
"If you know your history" is our song. And we all know our history, after all it?s enought to make your heart go oh oh oh oh... And I know enough history to realise that Goodison is IMO where we should be.
It could be in Timbucto but it would still be what I, you, John and all other Evertonians call home.And right now and for the forseeable future, it?s where we belong.
27 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:16:58
You guys are just following each other round from thread to thread, having the same arguments we’ve all been having for months, failing to change each others minds and generally depressing the hell out of me. I’ve been trying to find a thread that isn’t about or doesn’t end up being about Kirkby, but I am struggling.
I have never known such a divisive and destructive issue and I find it very worrying and depressing. Toffees slagging off Toffees, oh... hang on... that’s right, you’re not a true fan if... you’ve sold the club down the river... it’ll be the end of our club. A lot of this isn’t debate, it is angry people sniping at each other.
And there was me thinking things were looking up for this club! Obviously not.
28 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:20:46
29 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:17:19
Everton is in Liverpool! I’m proud to be an Evertonian, a scouser and from Liverpool. I travelled to Kirkby every working day (from South Liverpool) for 6 years, via every mode of transport. I was even involved in the Design of Merseytram for the Kirkby line. In comparison to Walton, Kirkby is very poorly served. As the transport strategy has shown..... this will not change! To believe that people wont be deterred by the added inconvenience is a big gamble. Not everyone are diehards otherwise we would get 35,000 for every away game.... and this will be a like a local away game. 4-5 miles for you in your car is no big deal, when 40,000+ are trying to use the same few Kirkby roads/buses as you, it becomes something else. The transport planners are on at least their 3rd revision of their strategy, how difficult can it be to plan for the most accessible footy ground in the country?
30 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:12:01
31 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:31:18
It would help me if BK explained why this is still the deal of the century.
If we don't move to Kirkby and can't afford to redevelop Goodison, then what ?
32 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:43:08
Getting from Lime St to Goodison is a taxi job now. Getting down the East Lancs or the M62 and Edge Lane into town, amongst all the usual traffic on a Saturday takes the piss right now and as for finding a parking spot reasonably close forget it!.
There are a lot of fans that are fortunate enough to live in walking distance of the ground. There are more further afield though and those fans haven?t, in the past, threatened to ?fuck off their Everton? just because there is some difficulty in getting there.
33 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:05:52
Prior to that I was born and raised 5 streets away from Goodison, I grew up with that ground being a major part of my life. All of my family are EFC supporters, My Grandad actually died in Gladways street when Dixey was palying at his best.
John when you talk about my Everton I know what you mean, but the reality is that big buisness runs football clubs these days. And unlike the Corrinthians that you mention in your post, the players that play for todays clubs are mostly mercanaries, who will always go for the higher pay.
For me no matter where the club ends up it will never be the same, but in order to progress we have to move on, I don’t like the Kirkby option it’s just not right for me.
I am 54 years old and this May I got to see the Mighty Blues play Newcastle in the last game of the season, I cried like a baby when the Z-cars theme started up and the players came out.
All my particular memories of that great ground came flooding back, I was also crying as I may never get to set foot in that grand old lady again.
It is true those that don’t know, don’t matter.
34 Posted 13/06/2008 at 17:08:14
Well I do know.....believe me Alan I love Everton and only feel at peace when I?m watching Everton, especially at home. We?ll create new memories when we move, some better some worse.
For everyone though dead against the move please read ?Our Iceberg Is Melting? by John Kotter. Maybe then people whose eyes are shut will become open!
Is it true, people who don?t know don?t matter!?? It is true those that don?t know, don?t matter!!!
I guess Everton need to find or recruit about 20,000 people who don?t know yet about match days to fill our new stadium. SO I THINK IT IMPORTANT TO MAKE THESE PEOPLE MATTER
Just a thought...
35 Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:54:10
Manchester City (and Man U) only have a few thousand official parking sites - the rest (6000) are ’affiliated’ and are generally empty car parks at all the surrounding workplaces. GP has few such sites, Kirkby is surrounded by them. Chances are it will be as easy if not easier to park up and walk to Kirkby versus GP next year?
There can be no end to an emotional response versus a pragmatic argument as neither is addressing the fundamental questions of the other. One side presents what they believe to be facts while the other side refuses to accept them ultimately calling any comment they don’t agree with ’lies’ or ’treachery’ of one sort or another - it is virtually a religious arguement based on ’beliefs’. That is probably why the club doesn’t engage in dicussions - it would never succeed in settling anything.
36 Posted 13/06/2008 at 18:06:03
"How accessible is Goodison today Tom. I think you may be looking at the issue with a very ?locals-only? bias."
Goodison has one of the highest dispersal rates of any ground in the league (meaning the inverse is also true), and the largest walk up fanbase.
"Getting from Lime St to Goodison is a taxi job now."
Why is it? There are any number of buses and trains serving Walton from town. A much smaller number Kirkby with most of them passing Goodison on the way.
"Getting down the East Lancs......"
How will the east Lancs manage with far more travelling along it before and after the match then? There are only 2 dual carriageways serving Kirkby from the main conurbation, and we will all be travelling in the same direction. There are dozens of traffic lanes serving Walton which can be used in both directions, and far more trains and buses.
" as for finding a parking spot reasonably close forget it!."
When going by car we park on the westminster rd side of Walton and can walk to the ground in 5 mins. The park and ride scheme includes parking places 2 miles away! No-one needs to park and ride at GP!
"There are a lot of fans that are fortunate enough to live in walking distance of the ground. There are more further afield though and those fans haven?t, in the past, threatened to ?fuck off their Everton? just because there is some difficulty in getting there."
The point is, if you are going to move stadium because you want to fill more seats, you don’t move to a less convenient site and away from the centre of your fanbase. That is a logistical nonsense! This site requires the biggest park and ride/walk scheme in the uk just to get us on site because the transport planners cannot make it workout it. Unfortunately Merseytravel have told them the park and ride scheme is not viable, so that leaves us with a stadium that was supposed to be the most accessible in the country at the vote to one that isn’t even the most accessible in Merseyside. Incidentally, I have always travelled from South Liverpool and have never had a problem getting to GP. Kirkby has the infrastructure and public transport services of a peripheral housing estate. It can never compete with the more central Walton.
37 Posted 13/06/2008 at 18:08:10
However, the fact that the downside disclosures are coming from sources other than the Club, makes it unlikely that further dialogue will take place. The Club needs to realise that if the Kirkby project is delayed and subsequently cancelled, the electorate will not fall for the same lies and deceit that played a major part in obtaining the majority yes vote last time.
If Kirkby is cancelled, please make a decision on the alternative without involving the fans in the decision making process. Under the circumstances that prevail at the Club, open dictatorship is more acceptable than false democracy.
38 Posted 13/06/2008 at 19:13:50
The City of manchester stadium is on top of the city centre which has thousands of car parking spaces and is accessible by bus/train/tram from all parts of Greater Manchester. Kirkby isn’t accessible from all parts of Liverpool/Merseyside. Only a handfull of Liverpool districts have direct bus/train services, and the Wirral none! Kirkby can handle just 3-5,000 public transport passengers per hr max making it the most car dependent club stadium in the UK. This is pitiful for a stadium of the size proposed hence the 3 aborted transport strategies!
39 Posted 13/06/2008 at 19:28:36
I liked your article mate but like Tony Marsh in his preceding article I’m afraid you too are pissing against the wind
These pro kirkby men simply do not get it, you cant explain it to them, those who understand . . .
You wont find anyone who’ll admit - in person - that they voted yes not even if you enlisted the help of a team from forensics, why ? they’re embarressed, they know it doesnt feel right, somewhere in the back of their minds thay know they are selling out, thats why your on the recieving end of so much hostility
People like Steve Jones rage, "they’re not true fans anyway"
What a poor deluded fool
The irony that he is trading the heritage of finest footballing institution in the world for a desperately inferior imposter playing in some fucking retail park seems completely lost on him / them
I will laugh my fucking head off if this gets called in, it will be the ultimate kick in the bollocks for the phillistines
What poetic justice, when they finally realise, that their meely mouthed claims of " at least it’s deliverable " proved to be Bullys biggest porkie of all
40 Posted 13/06/2008 at 19:33:12
A smashing post and to me, what it’s all about. I can remember as akid seeing Alex Young outjump Maurice Norman and Dave Mackay of Spurs (a great team of the early sixties, as we became too) to beat them at the grand old lady.I’m not sure how many where there that day but it must have been 60000 or so and the roar was absolutely eardrum bursting. We went on to win the league by beating Fulham 4-1 with Roy Vernon getting 3, I think. We’ve had some great times at GP and likeyou, I was down at St Georges Hallafter travelling back on the overnight train, to see the Blues bring back the FA Cup,
My Everton is a Liverpool team, from Liverpool 4 and I won;t be going if we move out of Liverpool. I could stomach the thought of leaving GP, if we’d not been let down by Kenwright and gone to the Albert Dock. If we could rebuild her a stand at a time, I’d be chuffed to bits because we would keep the history of one of the greatest grounds in England.
If it was proved that it couldn’t be rebuilt (which hasn’t been proved as far as I know) then sufficient information is available to state that the loop could house a stadium of 55,000. Whether partners could be found to build it, is another matter of course. What pisses me of about the antics of this board however, is that they told us there was no plan B, yet when a plan B and C is presented to them, they are dismissed without any investigation.
So, it seems to me that the board don’t want to hear any alternative than Kirkby.They don’t seem to mind leaving this City (Please don’t come on and say that Kirkby is in Liverpool - it isn’t.)
So John, like you my Everton will be gone once this gang take it out of Liverpool. It is just unbelievable to me that they would even dream of doing so.
41 Posted 13/06/2008 at 20:20:23
42 Posted 13/06/2008 at 22:29:49
43 Posted 13/06/2008 at 22:50:11
This dispersal and ’walkup’ information - where is it? I have tried to find it on a few occasions on the internet after hearing about it before now and failed.
It stands to reason if 50% of your support can walk to the ground it will disperse quickly - what proportion of our support lives within 30 min walk? Does your documentation go into that? How old is the study?
Man City stadium is 30 min walk from Piccadilly (nearest tram stop & main train?). When I have been there I didn’t see thousands walking down those roads but I did see thousands of cars parking in dozens of ’afilliated’ car parks, me included. The area around the stadium is similar to that around Kirkby, but further away from the motorway access. Kirkby empties onto the M57 via 2 separate junctions, and onto the M58 to the north and A580 to the east.
Having seen how police control the traffic lights to clear traffic away from GP after the match onto a dual carriageway I could see that a similar operation onto the much higher capacity motorways would be more efficient than Man City, Man United and GP.
44 Posted 13/06/2008 at 23:19:54
We are going to Kirkby because we are poor and believe that going to Kirkby is our best option for raising more revenues. This is what the debate is about if you care about the real future of our club more than about letting off your anger and upset that we are not a rich club anymore.
It is now even admitted on this site that redeveloping Goodison will almost certainly put us into greater debt than going to Kirkby (£80M with no counterbalancing items - such as selling Goodison). And clearly a brand new purpose built stadium can be built to achieve greater revenues than a patched up old one. And we can’t afford anything much more than Kirkby - even if we can afford that.
These are the unpalatable issues we face. We can’t afford much, and Kirkby may well be the best option we have in a difficult situation. Deal with the reality we actually face, or just continue wailing and abusing others.
45 Posted 13/06/2008 at 23:33:15
been out so aplogise for the delay in replying.
It is common knowledge and stated by the club I believe that KW was put on a large incentive by BK to "manage" the ground move while at the same time being allowed to set up his own "Stadium management" company that he runs in EFC’s time.
Now if that’s not a conflict of interest I’d like to know what is.
46 Posted 13/06/2008 at 23:45:29
47 Posted 13/06/2008 at 23:15:49
You just posted what I wrote and have just deleted. Of course a great proportion of the support disperses quickly if it lives in the housing hemming Goodison in!!!.
Does that mean that the stadium has to stay there just so those fans can still walk to it?. No of course it doesnt. Proximity to the ground doesn't make you a ?better? Evertonian any more than if, like Dave Wilson, you watched matches there in the 60s!.
When will some of you realise EFC is a Premier League football club not a fucking museum!
Respect the players and accomplishments that have made Everton into a club with stature and integrity, but, understand that Pienaar, Arshavin, Joaquin etc are more important than Dean or Ball. If you don't get that you should stay home watching black and white betamax videos or something and leave the rest of us to support the club and help move it forward.
Is moving the club to Kirkby a great deal for the club - no. Is it a more future-proof solution than Goodison.... until proven otherwise yes. Are there any PRACTICAL alternate solutions.... no. The Loop is a joke and no more affordable than rennovating Goodison or, if we really do have to stump up £78M, Kirkby.
What really has to be stopped before we can move on as Evertonians though is this idiotic idea that the history of the club is more important than its future.
For my money there should be another ballot and the question should be ?who will not go to Kirkby? if it was to happen. Then the club can ban those ?fans? permanently and good riddance.
48 Posted 13/06/2008 at 23:50:33
I had you down as one of the more intelligent Pro Kirkby camp but even you keep going on about the absolute myth that we will get a contribution from the sale of GP.
WE WILL NOT GET A PENNY FROM THE SALE OF GP BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY MORTGAGED TO BEYOND ITS MARKET VALUE.
49 Posted 13/06/2008 at 23:39:32
I have supported EFC for over 20 years and are very familiar with the history of thr club and can understand the emotion involved.
But one thing I cannot comprehend is how some people would not go or stop supporting the team if they moved away from Goodison.
As I stated I am prepared to travel to the other side of the world to see my beloved team and nothing could ever stop me supporting them, NOTHING.
50 Posted 14/06/2008 at 04:22:11
I don?t support the ground I support the team. I support the club.
I moved 3000 miles away and untill recently have suffered untill this DM transformation.
Everton are on the brink of being a really top Club again. Whoever is in charge of this newfound respectability aka Bill Kenwright deserves heaps of praise.
51 Posted 14/06/2008 at 06:04:19
The club is planning to go to Kirkby because 15,000 people believed it was the best option NOW
They believe ? and you're a perfect example ? that because we are poor now we will be poor tomorrow
They believe ? again you're a perfect example ? that there simply isn't any alternative
The dynamics of football clubs and local councils change all the time, we regularly witness poor clubs becoming cash rich, sometimes overnight! Are you really suggesting this can't happen to Everton?
Kirkby would be irreversible, for ever! How desperately sad it would be, to see this great club alienate thousands of its fans and get themselves into a debt they may not be able to manage, just to be where we already are ? at best?
I?m not a complete fool, I know a gamble is required.... but Kirkby???
Why not show some REAL ambition? If you truly want to compete with the Sky 4, as all yes voters claim, then you need the bollocks to borrow BIG, you need to think BIG (City BIG not small town big) ? just like Arsenal, Man Utd, or Liverpool
I know the cost of staying in the City may be greater than Kirkby ? although Tom Hughes has presented some powerful arguments to the contrary ? but the chances of successfully recovering the cost if based in a resurging city would be increased a thousand-fold.
52 Posted 14/06/2008 at 07:26:08
Does Everton make Goodison or the other way around??
The answer to me at least is obvious!!
There will never, how can there, be another Goodison.
But Kirkby in general and this ’ deal of the century’ in particular, will be so far down any list the list as to be untenable.
Plan A and no plan B that was our options in the vote.
Hobson’s choice is NO choice at all...by it’s very definition.
The hard question is... IF, by some miracle, it falls over, where do we go from there, because make no mistake about it we have to do something.
53 Posted 14/06/2008 at 07:32:04
Let me get this right, so two people who have never even kicked a ball for us ? probably never will ? are more important than the two players, who more than any others made us the great institution we are today ?
Pure gold, Steve Jones...
You also think the club should ban the people who say they won't go to Kirkby now? Good business plan, mate
This idea of yours, does it work both ways ?
Would the people who claim there can be no future for the club if it stays at GP, have to do one if Kirkby gets called in?
54 Posted 14/06/2008 at 09:57:16
COM stadium is 1 mile from Piccadilly, you would have to be pretty slow walker to take half an hour. It is surrounded by A-roads and being central much better served by public transport than Kirkby. It also isn’t contending with retail for car parking.
Merseyside police have figures for the clubs here and the Football research unit have figures for all major grounds. EFC also published these figures several years ago in a programme I believe. I will try to find a reference.
The motorway myth needs dealing with, at the end of the day, a motorway is just 3 lanes. Boltons Stadium is right alongside a motorway and 2 major A-roads and next door to a local train station..... it has one of the poorest dispersal rates of all prem clubs because it is so heavily car-dependent. Furthermore the M57 skirts around Liverpool with only a couple of access junctions, the vast majority of fans will be expected to park on the Liverpool side of this motorway because simple traffic flow analysis shows the numbers cannot get on site quick enough.... meaning also that they have got to get to their cars first before negotiating getting on any motorway. However, ALL wirral fans (1/3rd of our season tkt holders) will need to travel with the bulk of our Liverpool based support along the remaining arterial routes towards the city centre. People are already complaining that the east lancs is difficult as it is on match days, how much more so when a significantly greater number are using it. Bottom line is..... peripheral can never match central. Traffic and public transport capacities increase dramatically nearer to centre. GP is surrounded by major arterial roads and a ring road that can be utilised in both directions..... many more traffic lanes, backed by substantially more buses/trains. This will not change for Kirkby! This is why the out of town stadium is regarded as an outdated model! Only the likes of the larger German cities with their comprehensive mass transit public transport networks can place stadia out of town and still shift the numbers required efficiently. 3-5,000 per hr at Kirkby is pretty poor!
55 Posted 14/06/2008 at 11:13:33
... surely the dispersal rate for GP is so good because people who do drive have to park at least half a mile in all directions from the stadium, hence the surrounding area of the stadium is clear, but the roads further out are not. I have to park at the Anfield side of Stanley Park, I have to run to the car, setting off just before the end of the game, just so I don't get stuck in all the traffic leading out of Liverpool. If I didn't do this, it adds about an extra 30 minutes to my travelling time just to get out of Liverpool.
56 Posted 14/06/2008 at 12:37:52
Dean and Ball were two great, legendary, players that refelcted glory on the club.... their legacy is what? To Evertonians they are a source of pride...but you know I?d be proud of my club without them.
The values of Nil Satis were there before Dean and after Ball. So I say again if all you wish to do is worship to past glories go over to the RS that's all they do... EFC is no museum and Goodison is a football stadium not a shrine.
Mikel Arteta does not run the channels with the spirit of Dixie Dean in his heart or whatever sentimental and sanctimonious claptrap you might wish to believe. When Yakubu slams one into the top corner I absolutely promise you he?s not thinking of Ball?s achievements with the club.
The players today are motivated by success and achievement not black and white photographs of past legends. It is today?s and tomorrow's players we need to be focussing in on, NOT a small group of fans who think it's their club exclusively and they have the right to hang on to their little bit of its history. Tough
"This idea of yours, does it work both ways?
Would the people who claim there can be no future for the club if it stays at GP, have to do one if Kirkby gets called in ?"
Nearly end of reality check for you Dave. You ask me anyone, and by that I mean on either side of this debate, who says that they won't go to the matches if x or y happens should be lifetime banned. Just as should anyone who buys a knockoff shirt or gets a copy DVD. I cannot abide people who profess to love the club and then refuse to chip in or think they can screw the club out of a few quid.
You support the club or you don't, simple as. Have an opinion definitely, shout it to the top of your lungs, throw eggs at Wyness... hell, paint a little blue circle on the top of his pointy little frigging head as far as I?m bothered, but, you have to go the match, when you possibly can and support your club.
Everton needs you!
57 Posted 14/06/2008 at 13:04:59
There are criteria for measuring dispersal rates, and they extend much further than the stadium’s perimeter roads. Traffic densities/flow rates are measured at different ditances from the stadia to determine the dispersal rates...... but the fact that this scheme even needs a localised park and ride plan just to get people on an off site should tell it’s own story. The public transport for Kirkby is what you would expect for any peripheral housing estate with a population smaller than the stadium’s capacity. The club’s own consultants have confessed that the big issue is post match dispersal which they have still not been able to model to a desirable rate, and even then I doubt very much that it could stand comparison with GP. Their initial plan for park and ride has been rejected, their answer was to substitute with park and ride/walk. ALL the main car parks are further than half a mile away from the stadium. This has been a box ticking exercise when it was supposed to be the "most accessible" stadium in the country. No other stadium needs a dedicated Park and ride scheme!
58 Posted 14/06/2008 at 13:06:36
The list of possible comparisons is endless, especially when we come to the glamour positions of midfield and up front. If, through no fault of your own, your memory bank of Everton players is limited, you might well salivate at the prospects of Arshavin and Joaquin joining us. Those of us who were privileged to stand on mountain tops with Young, Ball, Kendall and Harvey and who think that Goodison Park (for all its shortcomings) is a magical kingdom are, in many ways, much harder to please. We are often dismissed by the younger supporters as old luddites who are unwilling to embrace today's silver plate as equivalent or even better than yesterday's gold. That is true.....it takes a lot to convince us; whether it be about this year's greatest ever player or the wisdom of leaving our spritual home.
Whether we are right to cling to our memories is questionable, but it is those same memories/experiences that give us the perspective to comment about football greatness as defined by Sky and their ilk today. Personally, I find the multiple stepovers used by Ronaldo to beat an opponent as tiresome compared to my memory of Alex Young dumping defenders on their arses by methods that, to this day, are still a mystery to me. Athleticism, determination and ruthlessness help teams to achieve success but, if you remove magic from the mix, you make the live football as uninteresting as the black and white photos you so dislike.
59 Posted 14/06/2008 at 14:37:14
The past is far more imporant than you realise, it's inextricably linked with the present, it goes an awful long way to shaping the future too. Think about it, if the players of the past didn't get you into the Prem you wouldnt be able to attract the players of the present.
I?m guessing your about 12-13 judging by your posts ? just guessing ? and when you get a better knowledge of the game you?ll realise Arteta does not run channels ? he?d usually leave that to someone like AJ
I can assure you I always look to the future, which is why I bought my lads their season tickets when they were young and can't wait 'til they're lads to join the blue family too.
It's also the reason why I get so angry with a move that I believe will destroy our future
One final point, if you were to ban every football fan who ever said he wouldn't go again, you would empty every stadium, of every football club, in every league in the world
But thanks for the reality check.
60 Posted 14/06/2008 at 21:36:29
My memories start with Kendall as a manager and a bald spot looked down on when about 10 years old. My ’gold’ was watching Trev Steven, Rats, Inchy and Reidy, when he wasnt broken, kicking lumps out of everyone left right and centre.
You dont have to have memories extending back to the 60’s to have the yardstick to compare todays players against and, yes, we’ve had a paucity of players that have the skills, in their day, of the Southalls, Sheedy’s, Sharps and all the rest.
So what do you do about it. Look back wistfully at the days when we did have that kind of talent, lament the present situation and dispair anything better?.
Actually I do dispair things getting better as I think we’re stuck with Goodison in its present condition until we have no choice than to do something desperate. Then begins the downwards spiral. In many ways thats another issue though.
The point that needs making is that the past offers no answer, no solutions to the problems we have now. Mixing that sentimentality in just makes the situation worse for all.
You say you dont know whether its right to cling to those memories. Of course it IS right for you personally. What isnt right is basing a judgement on the future on those memories.
I think you need to watch a few more games. Arteta’s at his most effective when he’s running the right channel. Anyone who still thinks he’s better at centre mid is on drugs!.
The recent past is inextricably linked with the present. In Goodison terms though the recent past is as bad as the present. Someone comes up with a deliverable Goodison upgrade and a source for the funds to actually do the work then I’ll be interested....until then its a fairy story....just like Kirkby.
"One final point, if you were to ban every football fan who ever said he wouldn’t go again, you would empty every stadium, of every football club, in every league in the world"
No you really wouldnt. You’d lose all the halfway commited glory hunters who’re only interested in the clubs when they are doing well.
61 Posted 14/06/2008 at 23:04:57
The point that I was trying to make is that football supporting is about tribalism. Each tribe at any moment in time is defined by a combination of its history, which is passed on from age to age, and how the present generation uses those traditions to help it face current challenges and make choices for the future in a way that is consistent with that history.
It is natural in any tribe for younger members to be impatient for a better life and to want to explore new places and different ways of doing things. That dynamism can be a great force for good provided that the course taken does not obscure or forever eradicate those essential beliefs and characteristics that serve to define the tribe.
The abandonment of the tribal homeland, allied to a willingness to accept a reduction in the standards (of play) and behaviour that helped to define the tribe in the first place, for short term gains should, in my opinion, be avoided. My abiding concern is that the price to be paid for trying to compete will be a loss of our identity and a lowering of our standards and I have to declare that it is too high a price for me.
62 Posted 15/06/2008 at 05:58:15
I missed one away game last season, funnily enough Arteta was’nt playing so I’m not sure how me seeing more games, will change my view
The channels , in football parlance, is that area between the center and the wing, in terms of width its round about the side of the penalty area, only forwards "run the channels", its to offer the player in possession another option when his winger is marked
Personally I hate the term channel, it was introduced by the "new coaches" like Malcolm Allison when they were trying to show the world how clever they were, I
always prefered the Catterick / Busby / Shankly approach. get the best players and ask them to keep it simple
Either way, Mikky plays either wide or center, he does not "run the channels"
I meet up for a pint with a group of guys I’ve known for years, a rough calculation tells me they have probably seen about 6,000 Everton games between them, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve heard ALL of them say " thats my fucken lot" after seeing us play shite at some obscure 2nd division teams ground on a freezing Tuesday night in the league cup .
We’ll all be meeting next Sunday, it’ll give me great pleasure to tell them that "They’re just a bunch of halfway commited glory hunters who are only interested when the clubs doing well "
Finally Steve, I owe you an applogy, because your post spoke only of the present and the future I wrongly assumed you had no past and would therefore be a young boy, My mistake, no offence intended
63 Posted 15/06/2008 at 18:12:15
64 Posted 16/06/2008 at 13:10:05
Everton means something totally different to me than it does to any one else. Does that me make a better or worse Evertonian than YOU? No it just makes me an Evertonian.
Thanks for the responses to this. Good and Bad. I like a debate and as usual there are some good points and as usual none of them came from the YES camp!!!!!!!
65 Posted 16/06/2008 at 15:58:21
If we manage to keep our city based support many of them will be forced to travel by car instead of public transport because the links are worse than at Goodison. Think West Derby or Childwall 81 or 60 bus v nothing direct. Previous writers have already pointed out the problems of getting away after the game.
My big concern however is the train connections. Kirkby will have one or two, if anouther is built, stations with all passengers going in one direction from one platform(scary). At Kirkdale we have pasengers travelling in two directions on trains going to 3 destinations, and we also have Sandhills a little further away with all stations to Southport.
The best option however is the city centre with its buses, 4 train stations going to numerous destinations, and Parking in the financial district and off Leeds street which is emplty when matches are being played and offices are shut.
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