Sunderland, Arsenal and Man City are all huge clubs who have in recent years moved to new stadiums and left behind old traditional grounds that the fans loved. They left together without a murmour.
Roker Park, Highbury and Maine Road were just like Goodison Park in a sense of being run down and not fit for purpose these days but their respective fans still thought of them as home. So why was there no carry-on like the one we are seeing now amongst ourselves when they were moving to a new place?
First of all, when the fans of the clubs mentioned knew they where getting a better stadium, it was a no-brainer to want to leave. Yes, it was painful with so many cherished memories to walk away from but with a fantastic new ground just down the road how could they possibly stay?
From what we now know, does any one think that the Tesco Dome will be better stadium than Goodison Park is, even though it will be newer? Because I don't. Plastic cowshed is too good a word for the place.
How about if the board of Man City indicated to the fans that they would be jumping ship and leaving the city they came from to the Red Devils? What would be the responce from Gunners fans at the idea of the Mighty Arsenal moving out of North London and across the Thames to say SE London? I mean it's only a few miles isnt it? Would any of these supporters have been happy? NO CHANCE!!! So WHY should we???
Even if Everton FC was planning on building a replica of the Emirates Stadium but in Kirkby, in the end we would still be having murder with one another over it because some of us don't want to run away from our history and our heritage. It's not just about the 4 miles in distance from Goodison to Knowsley.... It's not just about the bricks and mortar it takes to build the place... It's not just about the number of corporate boxes you can squeeze in to a ground.... It's a lot deeper than that ? especially in a city like Liverpool where being close to the river or the city center is in people's blood.
We are Everton FC, FFS, and leaving the city should never be an option ? even if it's the only option. It's just plain crazy and will be the biggest sporting disaster to affect Everton Football Club since Heysel ? and that's saying something.
So I ask again if this Kirkby bollocks is so good and really is the deal of the century, why are there so many against it? All we get these days from the club is silence on the matter and I think that speaks volumes too. They have fucked up bigtime and now Kenwright is too ashamed to show his gormless face in public.
WHY, Bill if it really is so wonderful moving to Kirkby, are you hiding behind your sofa instead of shouting from the rooftops? Silence is a guilty man's way out ? that's why.
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1 Posted 28/06/2008 at 05:37:45
2 Posted 28/06/2008 at 05:49:54
3 Posted 28/06/2008 at 07:31:21
4 Posted 28/06/2008 at 08:01:41
One of the few things we do have left is a good old school heritage that few have left and if Goodison was slowly redeveloped correctly, we would be the envy of a good few and this should be done (it can be done because Mr Ross basically said so in the week) because once it?s gone, that?s it and it will take another 100 years to build what we had and can you ever see us matching the past decade?
5 Posted 28/06/2008 at 09:22:00
One things for sure wherever we are I will always support the mighty blues!!!!!!
6 Posted 28/06/2008 at 10:21:42
7 Posted 28/06/2008 at 11:14:25
There is nothing really in the paper about us apart from the Council involvement, if I wasn?t an Evertonian I doubt I would know of such an unrest between us.
When the teams you have mentioned were moving, we didn?t trawl through their forums, if we did they may have had similar in fighting on there.
As I said an emotive post but in the end nothing than can say it is based on fact and nothing that hasn?t already been said many times before in the large rehash of posts.
8 Posted 28/06/2008 at 11:17:35
By 'fine', I mean we will remain a viable mid table team. Not what we want but what else is there? Half the support want a move that may actually endanger our very existence if we get it wrong, and the others want to stay and re-develop the ground one stand at a time, which will clearly hinder our development over the 4-5 year period this would take.
So, as stated above, let's do nothing major, bide our time and hope the credit crunch, oil hikes, middle east instability, Robert Mugabe taking over from Hicks and Gillette, all come to pass and the big boys all come back towards us, instead of disappearing over the horizon.
9 Posted 28/06/2008 at 12:11:55
As for the Kirkby issue re-appearing again and again in different posts, well maybe that's because some of us worry about it and actually care where we end up. It won't go away until its over one way or the other.
This move will kill the club stone dead but there is no way of proving it of course. Let's just say that us No voters have been a100% right on this issue thus far and I can't see how we can be wrong from here on in.
10 Posted 28/06/2008 at 12:55:36
"It?s just plain crazy and will be the biggest sporting disaster to affect Everton Football Club since Heysel ? and that?s saying something."
11 Posted 28/06/2008 at 12:57:18
12 Posted 28/06/2008 at 13:20:09
There is always detailed debate about things which are normally over my head regarding the ground move (transport, finance, architecture etc) but one thing I do know is that it is bad for Everton Football Club.
I also agree it's a shame we have no funding of our own and can even see why Bill & Fatboy are so desperate to jump into bed with Tesco, from the cost information in that financial piece yesterday. But it's still not right.
So Tony football opinions aside, I?m with you and everyone else opposed to this particular ground move.
13 Posted 28/06/2008 at 13:55:28
Er, nostalgia I suppose. If you know your history you?d know that the SE of London is where Woolwich Arsenal (or Dial Square as they were first known) originated. Indeed, when they moved north of the river the likes of Spurs complained about another club coming into THEIR traditional catchment area.
Finally, I wonder if your insistence on calling the proposed new stadium a "plastic cowshed" is an attempt to blur an obvious and incontrovertible plus to moving - i.e. a brand-new home with clear lines of sight and adequate room for corporate and other facilities?
Please don?t take the foregoing as tacit support on my part for the move. I?m still undecided about it (and never had a vote in the matter either). I?m not ecstatic about the Kirkby proposals but being a pragmatist I wonder what else (realistically) we can do to try and keep hold of the coat-tails of the current fat cats.
14 Posted 28/06/2008 at 13:32:54
I was with you all the way until you got to the last point
To blame it all on BK, is to ignore the other 15,000 culprits in this particular crime
I hate them twats across the park, but can you imagine - even in your wildest dreams - them ever accepting a move out of the city, leaving it to us ?
Can you imagine, Spurs skulking out of North London, or City meekly slipping out of Manchester ?
I remember when Souness was at Rangers, people were saying that Celtic were 10 years behind, I remember Celtic struggling to stay afloat, what I don't remember is half of them voting to move to fucken Hamilton!
I also remember Rangers struggling deperately as Celtic won trophy after trophy, but I don't remember them voting to sneak off to Morton and leave Glasgow to "Sellic"
City and Spurs have struggled - they?ve both even been relegated, Rangers and Celtic have gone through times of utter dispair, Birmingham City, the Sheffield clubs, have all had agonising periods, but do you think any of them would surrender their home cities to their rivals?
All fans know football is cyclical, they know things can change overnight, they know that before you can say "Henrik Larson" you can be playing in front of 60,000 people at your spiritual home
Only Everton, in the history of the fucken game, only Everton, have elected to raise the white flag, doff the cap and surrender their homes.
I?m ashamed, I?m utterly utterly ashamed and I?ll tell you what, so are the Yes men.
It's not only BK behind his sofa, try finding someone who?ll admit - in person -that they voted Yes, you can enlist the help of the fucken Canadian Mounties, but you won't find one
If the government don't call this in, we?re finished.
15 Posted 28/06/2008 at 14:55:48
16 Posted 28/06/2008 at 15:19:02
What I’m really looking forward to is eventually reading an article from you where you actually support something. Alternatively, a piece where you praise someone or something Evertonian. Obviously you can’t change how you feel about big issues like DK, but there must be things about this club that you like, fill you with pride, or make you happy? It’s very easy to attack, bitch and moan, and so often you do, but this was a half decent attempt at making your point.
17 Posted 28/06/2008 at 16:51:39
So now the people in favour of moving to Kirkby have progressed from not being "proper Evertonians" to being criminals??
And your credentials for passing judgment on the rest of us are....?
There are some "No" voters on here whose opinions command respect, because they try to put their point forward logically and without acrimony.
Other "No" voters do very little but indulge in personal attacks on the "criminals" advocating the move to Kirkby.
No prizes for guessing which category you fit into...
If you’ll excuse me, there’s some American-sounding fella on a horse outside saying hello to me...
18 Posted 28/06/2008 at 19:29:06
Just a wee joke!
I presume most No voters are, indeed, proper Evertonians but somewhat naive as it?s turning out. I was always suspicious of this Board, given its previous, being able to deliver a?world-class?, ?effectively free? stadium. It looks like I and other suspicious people were right to be so.
You?ve been misled and stitched-up by experts, that?s all; most of us have been in our lives. Perhaps us cynical bastards are lucky to have learned from the experience.
19 Posted 28/06/2008 at 20:03:06
That’s just it, I don’t feel misled and stitched-up. Just because the sales pitch has over promised and under delivered doesn’t take away from the fact that we will be getting a new stadium for a substantial discount.
I can see beyond the spin to the substance, and not having to pay £430m for a new stadium (like Arsenal) or whatever it ends up costing the RS to build their Theatre of Screams is an enormous plus to this deal.
Of course, your presumption that we have been stitched up is based on the implication that BK/KW knew the truth when they started the ball rolling - I don’t suppose you’ve got any proof of that? Couldn’t it just be that the terms of the deal may have changed from that originally discussed as time has progressed? Isn’t this what happens in business? Circumstances change, and so therefore the terms of the deal would change.
You believe they’ve done it deliberately - I am more trusting and can believe things have changed. Either way, a brand new stadium at a substantial discount remains a great deal.
20 Posted 28/06/2008 at 20:06:17
Not like you to come on and whine about what someone else has said whilst offering no opinion of your own
Question for you
These no voters, you know, the ones who have taken the time and the trouble to be nice and logical to you, the ones whos opinion you respect, the ones who’ve canvassed respectfully, telling you a million times they’re absolutely desperate to avoid Kirkby
Why do you yes men betray them ?
21 Posted 28/06/2008 at 20:19:39
Say, you agreed to 1buy a new 3 bed deatched home at a cost of 180,000
What’s eventually delivered and you’re asked to pay for is a 2 bed semi at 250,00
Now , you’re expecting me to believe you’d say: ’fair enough, the terms of the deal must have changed from that originally discussed as time has progressed’? Now call me Mr Disbelieving but..I don’t think you would
22 Posted 28/06/2008 at 20:29:26
The custodians of our club did not deliberately mislead us ... they are simply fools and incompetents who didn’t realise that in the business world what they were promised was subject to potential, unforeseeable, indefinable, circumstancial vagaries of cost and quality. Hmmmm. I’d be more than happy to sell you, right now, a new home at a substantial discount. Interested?
23 Posted 28/06/2008 at 21:02:17
Nor do I feel in any significant way mislead, never mind ’stitched up’. Indeed, little fundamentally has changed. We still need to leave GP to generate more revenues. We still cannot afford much more than Kirkby (if we can afford that) - so there really are no other options despite oddly persisting beliefs from the utterly delusional that we can somehow afford to build a £200M world class stadium in the centre of Liverpool. And Kirkby remains about the best deal we could ever imagine getting for a brand new stadium (try seeing what else you could get for somewhere around £50M).
As ever, I resent being told that I am not a proper Evertonian, that I am a criminal, and something of a naive idiot for voting Yes. Toffeeweb has now unfortunately become something of a never ending spasm of pain and anger against Kirkby and the Board with little substance, I wonder whether to contribute at all now, especially since recent contributions have been censored and removed by the editors. But perhaps it is still worth pointing out that there is another point of view out there.
24 Posted 28/06/2008 at 22:38:02
I think the reason so many NO camp who now also include quite a few previous Yes voters give you so much stick is that they are frustrated that 2 obviously intelligent Evertonians do not see the same things they do.
I believe everybody is entitled to an opinion and mine is coloured by the fact I DO NOT TRUST BK AND KW.
My distrust is well founded in that we were told the following:
It will be a world class stadium
It will be virtually free
It will be served by the best transport system in the country
I have been looking for investment 24/7
Now tie that into Wyness previous CV and BK’s Fortress Sports fund,NTL fiasco and KIngs Dock cock ups and you have the recipe for the biggest disaster to befall EFC in its history.
Now lets look at your argument.
1.We need more revenue
FFS have you read any of the complaints about not being able to get EFC merchandise(another Wyness initiative).
Spurs with a capacity of only 36000 get double the income of EFC and before you say its London prices it’s not It is commercial income where Spurs get almost 40 million compared to our 3 million.
So there’s our first opportunity.
GET COMMERCIAL OPERATIONS RUNNING PROPERLY
Secondly you say some views are restricted and we need more capacity.
It has already been demonstrated on these pages that GP can be free of restrictive views and achieve 47000 capacity for around 35 million.
That to me makes far more sense than trusting a pair of lying morons to deliver the "Crime of the Century".
25 Posted 28/06/2008 at 23:59:42
On the £35M for redeveloping GP point. Actually, there was a link to a detailed report from a few years back on redeveloping GP which suggested (if I recall it at all right) that redeveloping GP would cost in excess of £50M (probably more) at today’s prices. At the time I concluded that, given all the inevitable uncertainties, it seemed reasonable to conclude that it would cost more or less the same to redevelop GP as to build a brand new stadium at Kirkby.
You perhaps ought to be careful about being so cavalier with the facts. You might get the reputation of being a bit of a Wyness.
26 Posted 29/06/2008 at 00:23:07
The fans have been deeply split and an atmosphere has been created, consciously or not, by the entire board. A total change in club ownership and senior management would end the Kirkby idea. The club would hopefully be more secure financially, merchandising etc would be done professionally ?and the fans would have nothing to argue about?. Even those who defend their decision to vote (and to still vote) Yes would, I guess, be relieved that perhaps, us the fans, can finally unite again? Perhaps a plan could be drawn up by a new board/owner which everyone agrees upon? This, I am thinking is the way forward.
We should all disband our labels of Yes and No and we should together unite and get rid of this board who split us in the first place.
27 Posted 29/06/2008 at 00:46:25
28 Posted 29/06/2008 at 05:29:54
On this thred the move has been called the "crime of the century" I myself have referred to it as a "crime"
I recently turned up at a family barbecue in what I thought was a pretty cool shirt, several members of my family said it was a "crime" against fashion. My grammar, my English has been discribed as a "crime" on these very pages.
Guess what ? I knew people were?nt really calling me a criminal> Just as Bob and Neil know they arent being called criminals
I?m getting a little sick of yes voters waving the persecution card
Neil whines, " they say I?m not a proper Evertonian "
where Neil ? show me where ?
The person who introduced the word criminal is . . . yes you?ve guessed it Bob !!
it was also Bob complained people said "wasnt a proper Evertonian "
Where Bob ? show me where ?
On current threds, we have..
Bob : Posting merely to attack and distort what I?ve said, without offering any opinion of his own
Neil : Referring to the no voters as "delusional" whilst developing Bobs perchant for re-writing what other people have said
Alan Willo : telling Evertonians to stay away
I could go on, you know I could
My point is this . .
If you are going to Portray yourselves as victims, then stick to the facts, stop re-writing what others have said so you can throw your arms up in protest.
Point to the offending posts rather than recreate one to justify your claims
Put up or shut up
29 Posted 29/06/2008 at 07:09:45
I think from the Yes side the fair feeling though is that there has developed an extremely common way of characterising Yes voters as people who were naively taken in by the Board’s communications, and have betrayed the club (and so cannot be ’proper Evertonians’). The abuse is such that, as Gavin has noted, most Yes voters have simply stopped posting on Toffeeweb, which has itself become a more blatant anti Kirkby website (the complete right of the editors in my opinion, but not one conducive to a balanced debate).
My personal major frustration is my complete inability to get across to others that the choice of Kirkby for the club is not of course an ’ideal choice’. Nobody in their right minds thinks that going to Kirkby to build a £100M stadium is better than building a £300M stadium on say Stanley Park. And that means NO-ONE - including Kenwright and Wyness.
The only starting point for an argument in the real world is recognition of the club’s actual financial condition - which is not good! So 90% of No posts on Toffeeweb are simply people in effect saying, "We really should be richer so that we can afford something better than Kirkby". I FULLY AGREE!! But we are not richer. So the question is: what do we do in the situation we are ACTUALLY in?
I would just as much like a prestigious city centre stadium for our club as any other poster on Toffeeweb. Of course I would. The difference between No and Yes voters is not that we want something radically different for our club. We want the same. The difference on the Yes side is, to famously and accurately quote this time, we see that "You can’t always get what you want".
30 Posted 29/06/2008 at 07:46:29
The persecution card is clearly yours (as your frequent use of "proper" Evertonians, and now "criminals" and "betrayal" shows).
My opinion has been published on here a multitude of times, and I do not see the need to say the same thing over and over again. What’s the point? I’m not going to change your mind with what I consider reasoned and logical arguments.
Do you really think you’re going to change mine with your constant finger pointing at the "Yes" voters? What do you really hope to achieve? That suddenly we’re all going to feel ashamed of ourselves, beg for your forgiveness, and get into a group hug??
There used to be a requirement when people posted that it was something new - the only new thing coming out from you now is the level of derogatory terms being levelled at the "Yes" voters (and at BK/KW)
And you wonder why there aren’t many of us posting on here these days? Because these attacks are getting boring, and we’re switching off.
Let’s do another rewind, shall we. Let’s include the very words you wrote (and have obviously forgotten...)
"... the other 15,000 culprits in this particular crime"
Go on, scroll back up and see the words you used. If you really believe that it was me who introduced the reference to criminals in this thread, then you truly are delusional, and no wonder logic and reason doesn’t have an effect on you.
Hence your own penchant for re-writing what you yourself have said (ad infinitum)
I consider myself "put up"... and now I will "shut up", because I have a life to get on with which will be considerably enriched from not "debating" with you
Jay/Gavin, yours are opinions I have looked out for in the past as ones worthy of respect - even if I don’t agree with them. I will continue to read them (probably shaking my head as I do!) but this is me "over and out" - whatever will be, will be, and whatever happens, I hope we’ll all be happy next season (and for many more to come)
31 Posted 29/06/2008 at 09:34:05
32 Posted 29/06/2008 at 09:37:17
Just as I thought, you cant find a single post were anyone has told you your not a proper Evertonian - quite simply, you made it up
The word criminal was never used, until you childishly decided to take things out of context,
You were the only person who used the word - thats not my opinion, thats a fact
My aim has never been to change your mind, I dont even know what your views are, I only ever hear you critisize other posts
My aim is to stop you following many of my posts by claiming Ive said something I didnt, you were given your challenge to point to the post and prove your point, you couldnt
You’ve failed to put up, its your choice to take the option to shut up
Oh and for the record, so we are very clear on this ..
I - thats me, not every no voter - definitely DO feel that the yes vote was a betrayal.
33 Posted 29/06/2008 at 10:36:53
Ok, we’ll never agree,
I’m not an agreessive person, I dont have a violent bone in my body, but I’ve wanted to throttle fellow blues ! this debate is making me crazy
Bob Turners post got me to retrace and look objectively at what I’ve said, didnt realise I sounded so angry,
I too am out of this debate for good.
I finally agree with Bob, it really isnt good for the health
Look forward to debating - with all blues -nothing more divisive than, who will score the most Vaughany or Yak ?
34 Posted 29/06/2008 at 11:33:48
35 Posted 29/06/2008 at 14:22:54
Once again, I appeal to Dave and Bob... CUT IT OUT!
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