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You Moyes-knockers, do the honourable thing...

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I'm in the fortunate position of getting to trumpet my love for Everton in magazines and newspapers, so I haven't contributed to ToffeeWeb before, though I read it religiously (ie saying 'Christ Almighty!' a lot). But I'm writing now in response to David Moyes being made Manager of the Year, by his peers at the LMA, for the third time.

Throughout this season, as in previous seasons, Moyes has been persistently knocked by some contributors to this site, and indeed by members of your editorial team. He dithers in the transfer market, he encourages hoofball, his substitutions are crap and so on ad nauseam. He was pilloried for letting Lee Carsley go without a replacement, yet not even his most vehement critics are mentioning Carsley now. That they are still able to whinge about the manager would make me laugh if it wasn't so bloody depressing.

And so my point is this: in a week in which EFC have just finished fifth in the Premier League, confounding everyone who quite reasonably thought that the loss of our best defender, best midfield player and best striker would wreck any chance of us again finishing 'best of the rest', in a week which will end with us playing in an FA Cup final having dumped out Liverpool, Aston Villa and Man Utd, which of you perennial Moyes-knockers will be big enough to admit that maybe the nation's football managers have got it right and you have got it wrong?

Not a single one of you, is my gloomy prediction.
Brian Viner, Hereford     Posted 27/05/2009 at 12:43:11

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Michael Kenrick
Brian, nice of you to stop by...

I was hoping we would not have to deal with this contentious undercurrent in the week of the build-up to our greatest game in 14 years, but, since you indict the editorial team along with your blanket condemnation of all those who quite rightly called repeatedly for improved performances from Moyes and his boys when they plumbed the depths, I will respond.

Over the years of being on the internet and running this website, it has become ever clearer to me that the range of feeling and emotion about Everton topics amongst its Evertonian brethren spans the full breadth of the human experience, and every facet of opinion from blind faith to black cynicism, with every shade in-between.

I mention this because I have come to suspect that an Evertonian's opinion about a given topic ? be it regarding Anichebe, Osman, Hibbert, or, of course David Moyes ? reflects more the personality, background, history, upbringing and predisposition of the observer than the rational distillation of the facts that might support their firmly held views.

So you have the optimists of sunny disposition, brought up perhaps by touchy-feely parents who never laid a hand on them by way of imposing discipline, always provided positive encouragement. Their world is eternally positive and bad things tend to be ignored or overlooked in favour of the prospect of better things to come. Are they the ones who perhaps cannot countenance any form of critique for our manager?

While towards the other end of the spectrum, you perhaps have a product of the school of hard knocks, someone who has struggled against adversity, a product of tough love, no gain without pain... Perhaps they are the ones who (during those bad spells) focussed on the poor performances as they happened, and identified areas that needed improvement as soon as possible, much to the chagrin of the accepters of mediocrity that seemed the watchword of his most ardent supporters.

And of course there's everything in between.

The idea of using the internet to talk about Everton seemed brilliant back in 1993, to share the history, the memories, the ongoing saga as it now unfolded live before our eyes and ears, wherever we were in the world, as an integral part of a group far larger and more diverse than your mates from the street, or in school, or down the pub.

It's funny how many times you hear the trite phrase, "football, it's a game of opinions..." The grain of truth to that though comes in the issue you raise, which I am finally getting around to. One interesting thing about the internet has been the emergence of those who have not been content to merely share their views and exchange opinions. They want to take it a step further ? to influence... dare I say it, even seek to control the views of others who have watched the same games, seen the same facts emerge.

And that, Dear Brian, is it seems the place where your right/wrong determination comes from. Why not instead give credit to those who were dissatisfied and asked for more from Moyes at that crucial time, rather than implicitly praising those who believed it was no problem to lose three games in a row because they felt in their hearts things would eventually get better?

I think it is uber-positive fans like you who should be giving credit to the more critical ones amongst us, because, like at that awful Spurs game the other year, they are the ones who gave Moyes the proverbial kick up the arse he needed to start doing his job properly again.

Moyes has done remarkably to capture a third LMA award. But for me, that does nothing to change my perception that Moyes is still too conservative; that he still has a lot of negatives which I believe are holding us back from where we could have been with a little more self-belief and application.

Saturday will be a massive test. He has never beaten Chelsea, primarily through his ingrained conservatism when playing them. Plenty of 0-0 and 1-1 draws... and if we play on Saturday the same tight game as the semi-final (as we surely must) it could go down to the lottery of penalties: win and he will have finally crowned the seven years of progress with that much-needed trophy.

It's not something we've gotten wrong and you've gotten right, Brian. It's simply a different perspective. The achievements at the end of the season are wondrous considering the constraints and adversity. But they fully justify the validity of the critiques of his earlier failings... critiques which, who knows, perhaps played a far greater part in turning the season around than you seem willing to give credit for.

I think it all depends on your upbringing!

Nick Entwistle
1   Posted 27/05/2009 at 21:53:36

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That?s the longest explanation of not much ever MK. You knock Brian?s oppinion then defend opinion in general. If anyone does need to raise their hand at saying anti-Moyeser rhetoric it would be those demanding he step aside back in September/ October.

He certainly is open to criticism, but the knee-jerk reactionaries calling for his sacking were just wrong.
PS - I?ve always supported Moyes and had a very caring up bringing... erm, so... yeah.

Simon Flynn
2   Posted 27/05/2009 at 21:49:57

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Michael, you drive me to distraction. A matter of upbringing? What psychobabble claptrap ? you could just as easily argue it?s a ToffeeWeb reader?s genes, or their star sign, or what make of car they drive that decides how we view Moyes.

Maybe those who only ever grudgingly give the manager credit regardless (it ?always? has a caveat) should be thankful to the optimists because, if it had only been the doom-sayers voicing their opinion, Moyes might?ve been sacked and we wouldn?t have come fifth in the league, again, and be in the cup final.

Please, just brush that chip off your shoulder.
Kevin Tully
3   Posted 27/05/2009 at 21:57:21

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When David Moyes began his tenure seven years ago, he was very raw with lots of passion. He has now established EFC as "a top six side."

Let?s not forget the start to this season though, I doubt he was blameless in the debacle that took place pre-season.

I do believe he is the best man for our club, it?s just a crying shame he won?t receive the funds he deserves. On the other hand, I still would not want an Arab consortium to own EFC.

I do not want to sell the very soul of Everton to sign mercenary players from abroad. Build on our good youth system, and slowly but surely, we will catch the top four.
Brian Viner
4   Posted 27/05/2009 at 22:43:41

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Ah, I’m with you now, Michael. It was you and your fellow Moyes critics that we must credit for the strides made this season. On behalf of all ’uber-positive’ Evertonians, well done indeed for giving the manager the ’proverbial kick up the arse he needed to start doing his job properly again’, and all because you were spanked with hairbrushes as eight-year-olds. Bravo!
Marco Bonfiglio
5   Posted 27/05/2009 at 22:51:00

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Sorry if I repeat anything, but I tend to skip past any of Michael’s screeds that go one longer than 100 words.

Hi Brian: we corresponded via The Indo umpteen years ago when you came out as Blue in that august organ.

Sorry, I’m bimbling ... I’ve already put my pro-Moyes screed elsewhere on this august organ earlier this evening. To elaborate: IF we assume that Davie can’t take us any further, let’s look at the alternatives.

Let’s look at the alternatives.

I said ... let’s ... what?

Come on. We finished top of the Rest. Again. Dozens of managers would love to manage us. Like Fat Sam. Who’ll be looking for a job halfway though September. Like Paul Ince. Who’ll STILL be looking for a job halfway through Christmas. Like all those managers who didn’t do as well as Moyes last year. You see where I’m going with this one, don’t you?

What’s the weather like, Michael?
Terry Maddock
6   Posted 27/05/2009 at 23:01:19

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Well... I've finally manged to rehinge my jaw after it dropped so far...

Had I realised that the spiteful hatefilled comments directed at David Moyes (mainly on here) over the past 7 years were actually the reason for our success on a shoestring... well I might have joined in with calling him, incompetent, clueless, dithering... or what the hell, a coward... just like all the other doom mongering geniuses ...

Dave Moyes, rather than spending hours on the training ground, or scouring the world for fresh talent, or working on tactics, just comes on here has a quick shufty, doesn't bother reading Doddy and goes straight to Tony Marsh's latest rant... and Bingo... we're sorted.

96 clubs have votes... 96 proffessionals have voted Moyes the best manager 3 times in 7 years... If they only knew Eh..?

Marco Bonfiglio
7   Posted 27/05/2009 at 23:14:03

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Terry: To paraphrase the great George Bernard Shaw - "Those who can, do; those who cannot, teach; those who cannot teach, administrate; those who cannot administrate ... WEBMASTER!"
Ian Tunny
8   Posted 27/05/2009 at 23:18:23

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Some good points made here Michael, this has given me some understanding as to your way of thinking, but what are you trying to say that because I am more positive I was hugged more as a baby than you or those that are more negative?

I don't think these people are always choosing to be positive because they want to avoid the negative,I think you have to look at the bigger picture and a whole season and be realistic rather than looking at one terrible performance aginst Spurs and say he deserves the sack ? everyone has an off day they are not robots.

I disagree with your assesment of why we haven't beaten Chelsea when you talk about "his ingrained conservatism" ? I don't think it is to do with conservatism, I think it is just because Chelsea are a very good side and usually, whoever they play, it is a close game ? just look at the Chelsea Barcelona game, it is hard for any team to break them down, I think it is harsh to blame this on Moyes.
Terry Maddock
9   Posted 27/05/2009 at 23:22:07

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I'm suprised my reply has now lasted 25 minutes... I suggested that Moyes was nothing short of a genius to only field 9 competent players every game and still get results... my refusal to except that fact that "If Osman and Hibbert start this game we may as well go home at half time" that I read every week, usually ends up with my thoughts being deleted...

Amazed how a player not fit to wear the shirt managed to almost singlehandedly take apart a team pushing for Europe who we had not beaten at their gaff for over 40 years...

Obviousy Ossie read Michael's and Tony's comments and upped his game...
Terry Maddock
10   Posted 27/05/2009 at 23:32:47

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My Father once beat me with a dogs metal choke chain..for having a party while he was out... I was 14.

I don't think the pysco babble applies to me.
Richard Pemberton
11   Posted 27/05/2009 at 23:20:14

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Once upon a time, we all seemed to want a ?rich benefactor? - whatever the credentials, just as long as he?s got money.

But there seems to be a growing number of comments suggesting how people want to keep the soul of Everton from mercenary investors, and there?s a growing belief that Everton can now afford to be selective with perspective buyers.

It has to be down to the job that Kenwright and especially Moyes have done.

Just look at the training facility, the number of quality young players joining the club, and then those players developing and actually playing a major part in our ever strenghtening first team. It breeds strength and belief that there are other ways of growing a rosy future.

When we?ve had poor form in the Moyes era (every season at some point), the blame always finds its way to the manager and chairman/board, and often venemently so.

But we repeatedly find ourselves at the end of the season with at least a slight sense of over-achievement!

It would be great if more Evertonians could keep the faith just a little, instead of throwing the toys out the pram when we have a few inevitable poor games.

If we win on Saturday I think it might feel like winning the World Cup or something! In the modern Premier League era, Moyes?s achievements have been outstanding... let?s just hope he?s here for good.
Mark Davies
12   Posted 27/05/2009 at 23:45:28

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Michael - you seem to have alienated a lot of posters with your comments. I do understand where you’re coming from with your hypothetical suggestions.

May I suggest that, for some reason, the majority of visitors to ToffeeWeb don’t have the intelligence to understand what you were getting it. Maybe it’s upbringing... :)
James Stewart
13   Posted 27/05/2009 at 23:58:29

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Firstly, I concur with what Michael said.

Unless victory brings home the FA Cup this season, there is nothing special about the achievements about this season for me.

I mean has progress been made? The start of the season and the whole contract situation was embarrassing and terrible PR for the club.

Yes, it was turned round... and yes, we are the best of the rest... but how long will that be good enough?

We need to push on now and I will not be gushing about how great Everton or Moyes are until we break the top 4. or bring home the cup. ; )

And before the Moyes brown-nosers start, I believe he is by far the best man for the job! You just have to put into perspective how much progress has actually been made.
Andy Crooks
14   Posted 28/05/2009 at 00:18:34

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I have, on other threads, been happy to admit that I was wrong in the autumn about David Moyes. I?m just about sick, however , of Evertonians talking about him as if he a footballing genius. I think most of his critics last year, far from thinking he should be sacked, actually took the view that his dithering over his contract was detrimental to the club.

My own view was that he was being overpaid for what he had achieved. The football was awful and the approach totally conservative. We played against, allegedly, superior teams as though we would be happy to keep the score down. Any critcism levelled at him at that time was thoroughly justified.

David Moyes is developing as a manager and has had a fine season, I wouldn?t want any other coach to be with Everton right now. Frankly, though, I believe a huge transfer fund would be a burden to him. Against the odds, all stand together is what we have needed and what he has provided. Beyond that, we?ll see...

Jason Broome
15   Posted 28/05/2009 at 00:51:54

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What does David Moyes mean to Everton?

Without him we would have been relegated!
Dean Adams
16   Posted 28/05/2009 at 00:30:56

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Wow Michael, that is almost surely the biggest pile of garbage I have ever read. You seem to be in that band of supporters that fail to see the real world and survive by blaming those who you see as not good enough, yet you have no real idea of what you actually see.

You can?t get it because it is beyond you and those fans who don?t see it never will. It does however make for great debate and that is one thing that you do seem to get.

We are the best of the rest and we will be closer next season than this to the big four, that's a fact.

Oh and I was beaten regularly as a child and it serves as a great source of optimism as I could have continued the cycle, but rose above it, just as those who you berate each week do.

Andy Crooks
17   Posted 28/05/2009 at 01:01:06

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Jason, without Joe Royle, we?d have been relegated. Without the wrongly maligned Walter Smith we would have been relegated. With David Moyes, we were very nearly relegated.

I admire and respect him but I don?t believe he as achieved enough to put him beyond criticism.

Steve Conway
18   Posted 28/05/2009 at 01:36:51

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Is the issue here age-related? When I speak to my father and other older blues, they remember such terms as the School of Soccer Science and the Holy Trinity. They remember a club with a history which was one of the biggest in the country and even into the 80s with the Kendall years we were still up there with the best.

And then the Premier League arrives... due in no small part of our then Chairman, Sir Philip Carter. And somehow we don?t make the transition, and clubs like Newcastle (even without doing anything) and Chelsea suddenly become big and we end up being some poor relation to a bigger neighbour. So I can understand their frustration that they can?t see how we can ever win the league again when we?re behind by 27 points and how can this be a good season when we were out of the title race by Christmas.

And then there are people who are younger (or in my case not as old). I remember the Kendall years but I have spent most of my adult life watching the Premier League and this is what I see.

A club that had fallen on hard times but got through and finds it difficult to compete in the new football world order, but now has a chance to become great again in the old fashioned way by building a great team around a great manager.

This manager cannot be called great yet but every year he seems to grow and develop and learns from his mistakes, he seems to be his own greatest critic and he seems to be honest and loyal to the club and his players. I like those qualities in David Moyes and I want to believe and hope that those qualities will help him to become a great manager and us to become a great club and back were we belong. In one way, we're are back as a top five side, it?s just that the rules have changed and now we have to become a top four side to be taken seriously.

So as you see I am optimistic blue who hopes for better days and would love for us to do it the old fashioned way without becoming some fashionable plaything for the rich, and I believe something that inspires old and younger blues alike is winning the FA Cup. I don?t care what some Fleet Street hack or TV pundit says now, because if you know your history, the FA Cup is a great achievement that any club or fan can be proud of.
COYB.

Steve Conway
19   Posted 28/05/2009 at 01:50:22

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By the way, Life hasn?t being partcularly easy for me and I have had quite a few knocks along the way. But belief can be a powerful thing and what's wrong with a bit of faith ? isn?t that why we?re fans in the first place?
Sean Patton
20   Posted 28/05/2009 at 02:16:53

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My blue brothers and sisters, why can't we all just get along! I do not feel the point-scoring on either side of the manager?s abilities is good to see.

For those who feel he can do no wrong, they defend him to the hilt and refuse to acknowledge any mistakes or possible slight on his character

Conversely, the Moyes detractors never give the guy the credit he deserves and it seems they derive almost perverse satisfaction when the club loses.

However, I do feel this polar opposite of opinions could be in the final days because, if we win the cup, as I believe we will on Saturday, then anyone who tries to criticise Moyes in the future will just have the cup victory thrown back at them.

(ps: I was beaten as a child with the wooden spoon)
Jason Broome
21   Posted 28/05/2009 at 04:44:16

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Andy Crooks - Your memory is much like your patience... short!

In 7 years we have watched the demise of Newcastle United. Had Moyes not arrived, sooner or later that would have been us!

Smith was fired because he was taking us down. Moyes arrived and the following season narrowly missed Europe! With no money and a slight tinkering to Walter Smith?s team Moyes brought Champions League qualification!

Walter Smith has done well in Scotland with an inflated budget in a sub-standard league (In Scotland Graeme Souness is more successful than Arsene Wenger don?t you know).

In England he (like Strachan) did nothing and got nowhere yet you praise his name (like Jesus) in harmony with Royle.

Joe Royle was twice the manager Smith was, yet I?d have Moyes over both of their collective arses. Royle was good but simply ran out of ideas and after 12 years hasn?t developed any new ones.

Walter Smith did fuck all for Everton and, had he still been in charge, would still be doing fuck all in the Championship? with Everton!

Joe Royle lost the plot and, had he still been in charge, would still be looking for it!

It staggers me the depths some supporters go to, to criticize Moyes? romanticising past failures to dull our potential successes.

Yes, Moyes is not perfect and is still growing ? but isn?t that part of being human? Or is that no longer part of the job description!
Jason Broome
22   Posted 28/05/2009 at 04:53:04

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To sum up... Joe Royle ran out of ideas, Walter Smith didn?t have any... either way, eventually we would of gone down!
Jamie Crowley
23   Posted 28/05/2009 at 04:45:44

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Andy - would have been relegated without the wrongly maligned Walter Smith?? Are you kidding? Wrongly maligned? The guy almost single handedly took the Club to the depths!!! Keep a Club around 17th I suppose and then say, "without me, you?da been down." Smith is COMPLETE shite. Talk about boring, park the bus football.

From Wiki: Under Smith, Everton finished in the bottom half of the table for three consecutive seasons. The Everton board finally ran out of patience with Smith and he was sacked in March 2002 after a 3?0 FA Cup Sixth Round defeat to Middlesbrough

Moyes has done fantastically.

I was spanked often. Discipline ran the home I grew up in. My Dad simply cracked me when my elbows touched the table at dinner because I wasn?t sitting up straight. And guess what? I think Moyes has this team moving in the right direction, and he?s a massive asset.

I also think some folks that post on this site are nuts... but that?s why I tune in about every night.
Zack Yusof
24   Posted 28/05/2009 at 04:48:52

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MK, time for your medication.

Andy, the "much maligned Walter Smith"? What. The. Fuck?!!!! This is the same Walter Smith who almost bankrupted the club and got us relegated right?

Thank fuck for David Moyes, i say! The man has put some pride back into supporting Everton, which is more than i can say for a lot of our previous managers.br />


Zack Yusof. (also beaten as a child with cutlery)

Santosh Benjamin
25   Posted 28/05/2009 at 07:29:11

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I have to admit i have always been pro-Moyes and at times have defended him when i knew he had made a mistake. I however have no doubt that he is the right man to take this club back to our glory days. I remember the regular ritual of avoiding relegation on last day or just before that. We have a long way to go before we crown him our best manager but we are headed in the right direction.
The players are signing long-term contracts and young players are joining us to develop further. Winning the FA Cup would be massive for us. Lets put aside our differences about Moyes and just sing our hearts out on Saturday for Moyes and the lads..COYB
(Great childhood.Never beaten as a child with any kind of kitchen implement or garden tool. Dont seem to have turned out too bad)
Nick Dommett
26   Posted 28/05/2009 at 07:47:08

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Reading all these comments about Moyes, justifies to a certain extent what MK was trying to say (although the social theory commentary is so 1970s - all very socially deterministic): we all have opinions, which given the ’facts’ on display we choose to give more importance to some and de-emphaise others.

So Moyes almost got us relegated? True. We had a bad start to the season? True. Is conservative in his tactics? True (IMHO). Has a tendency to go to hoofball? True. Continues to play Osman and Hibbert down the right? True.

However...

So Moyes has led us to Europe yet again? True. Has he improved the quality of the squad? Yes. Have we played at times excellent football? Yes. Has made some excellent signings? Yes. Has a team that looks like it would go through a brick wall for each other? Yes. Has no option for Osman/ Hibbert ’cause there isn’t that much money? Yes.

We all want Everton to be the best: Moyes is frustrating because he gives everybody some ’facts’ that support their argument of ’I love/ hate Moyes’. Personally, I think he has done a good job and no-one else shoule be manager at the moment. But do I think he’s done everything right? No way! But I hope it will continue to get better and carry on the undoubted improvement (again IMHO) that has taken place over the last 4-5 years
Chris Masey
27   Posted 28/05/2009 at 08:38:34

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Brian, congratulations for bringing me back to commentary on this site!

I read your "Final word" article every saturday on the train with my dad while travelling to Goodison, and have on many occassions thought about inviting you into our gwaldys street clan, a story on which to base your next article. However after numerous failed email attempts, worried about my lack of vocabulary and inevitable spelling mistakes, I have so far chickened out!

Anyway enough of my shortcomings.
As a young and naive supporter (25), I have no real memory of our so called glory years, so Moyes’s reign has in truth been a great journey for me.

However, I have at times called for his head, and the nurtured wisdom of my dad always brings me back down to earth. For if I had got my way, and we had given moyes the boot, we could have easily done a Newcastle in these testing times. Therefore, as I always do on a saturday, I totally agree with you, and this coming staurday hopefully your article will accurately preview David Moyes crowning moment as a football manager.

PS: Maybe you should put Michaal in your "who I don’t like this week" snippet.
Steve Connor
28   Posted 28/05/2009 at 08:34:56

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Cant wait to log on here on Sunday... I suspect Marsh et al are already penning their hatchet pieces in anticipation of our defeat.

Lets just hope Moyes can put this all to bed by winning the FA Cup and then undoubtedly cement his position as a great Everton manager.

I concur with Steve Conway on this to an extent. I too am old enough (mid 30s) to recall the glory years of the mid 80s but the majority of my adult match going years have been the truly miserable 90s early 00s. Unrelenting dross ( 95 apart of course) and constant flirtation with disaster. Had we gone down during any of those seasons its not inconceivable that we would have done a Leeds such was the mess the club was in.

Everton are now ESTABLISHED as one of the top six teams in this country.... I have followed my team in European football, something that was a pipe dream in those dark days before Moyes, with us having qualified 3 years in a row for the first time since the 1980s....and we are now about to compete on our first final for 14 years having disposed of 2 of the sky 4 along the way.

The above are facts. Not statements of opinion. There are no grey areas in the bald statements of where we find ourselves as a football club in 2009 compared to 2002.

The person responsible for this transformation is the very person some on here villify in often disgusting and derogatory terms(something incidentally that pisses me off far more than the idea ’we all have our opinions and can express them’. Thats fine. Its when it takes the form of vitriolic persecution that it requires some people on here to take a look at themselves).

Whatever happens on Saturday the progress made by Everton Football Club under David Moyes is something I would have found difficult to believe back in 2002, such was our pathetic status.

I now live outside Liverpool and the perception of Everton Football Club and David Moyes is one of respect and admiration. Respect for a team and a manager that represent consistency, hard work and a refusal to accept that the financial restrictions at the club and the undoubted gulf in finances between us and the only teams that now finish above us mean we have to settle with being their inferiors. That is what Everton Football Club now embody because of Moyes work over the last seven years.

Marsh, Kenrick etc might not think that counts for anything but to me it is a tangible sign that Everton have been completely transformed under Moyes. I for one hope hes here for another 5 years to complete the job he has started and turn us into consistent top four finishers and then who knows...

Incidentally, was once hit by my mum with one of her stilletto shoes.....



sam morrison
29   Posted 28/05/2009 at 09:30:33

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Michael, whilst I understand the logic of your reply, I think the ’kick up the arse’ you’re talking about only really applies to events like the Spurs game, where it was justified and effective. A prolonged, repetitive, web-based slagging with near-to-no appreciation of the positives Moyes brings doesn’t really equate to responsibility for our successes, and to say so smacks of embarrassing self-importance.

Like Nick Dommett implies above, there’s good and bad to all managers and most Evertonians, I’d hazard, can see that, even if they tend to accentuate one or the other. You seem to feel comfortable though categorising any positivity into an ’apologists’ box, and award yourself the mantle of ’objectivity’.

What I don’t understand is how you can write something like that and then insist the negative associations with Toffeeweb are a myth. I share a office with an Evertonian who refuses to look at Toffeeweb any more! I love this stuff too much but when you write stuff like this I can see his point.
Barry Jevons
30   Posted 28/05/2009 at 09:25:17

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I was passed from foster home to foster home as a kid and never had a hug from somebody who loved me until adulthood. However, I fucking love David Moyes and think he is the best thing to happen to our football club in the last two decades!

Michael, what a completely stupid opinion to voice on here. This is a football website, not a school psychology lesson. I’m sorry that you had a bad childhood, but keep it to yourself eh, now’s not the time.
Ajay Gopal
31   Posted 28/05/2009 at 09:36:33

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Hey Santosh ! Glad to see you back on TW ! Where have been man ? Missed your match reports for the past several months.

Aww, you people, get off Michael’s back. He allows us to post our opinions here, after all.

This site will be one happy, lovey dovey family on Sunday. COYB !!
Alan Kirwin
32   Posted 28/05/2009 at 09:46:12

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Michael - I’m taken by how succinct Brian’s post was compared to your gargantuan tome. What on earth were you thinking of?

We have agreed & disagreed, but it seems to me you have usurped your role on the site to deliver a fairly meaningless ramble that is so long it drowns the original post from a national journalist.

I started watching Everton in the mid/late 60’s with my dad. I’ve also seen it all, highs and lows. The world has moved on and I wish to christ some Evertonians would move on.

All things considered this has ended up being a fantastic season for us. The fact that Moyes (and Kenwright by the way) consistently get good press from their peers and man informed journalists should make the moaners take notice, rather than keep banging on the bastard door with their "no but, no but...".

Whatever has gone before, good season, good manager, good team. Enjoy.
marcus dawson
33   Posted 28/05/2009 at 10:39:30

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Great thread and very illuminating, it’s nice to read a well structured piece on here, just a pity it didn’t qualify to appear as an article, but maybe that’s reserved for the great wordmiths like Tony Marsh. This is a good football site Michael, so don’t get too down on things, but I think you’ve been found out this time. None of us are blind followers, but most Evertonians recognise the fact that we’ve got a highly talented, committed, hard working manager, the best since Kendall, something we’re proud of and grateful for in equal measure. Thanks Brian, hope you start to contribute a little more often.
Chris Masters
34   Posted 28/05/2009 at 11:26:16

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Michael,

To suggest that our critical analysis (positive or negative) depends on if you were born on the sunny side of the street or if you had parents like Wayne and Waynetta is naive, misguided and with one foul swoop puts the entire Everton fanbase into box A or B...

To then further suggest that the Moyes Out brigade should be commended for demanding more effort, better tactics and further squad investment is almost laughable...

Do you really beleive that Davie Moyes logs onto this site, studies the comments and then thinks..."Christ... better get the lads to try harder..."

By suggesting that the anti-Moyes brigade did well for criticising his transfer policy, tactics and team selection is to insinuate that Moyes actually wanted our pre-season to go as badly as it did, and that he tried hard to ensure we lost our first how ever many games...

If you can?t honestly see that David Moyes has constantly strived in an almost obsessive manner to better everything about this club then my estimation of your intelligence and understanding must have been wrongly perceived...

I also can?t help feeling that although you are perfectly entitled to your own opinion, you have done your reputation more harm than good by publishing your response...
Godfrey S Blumenthal
35   Posted 28/05/2009 at 11:53:25

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Part of the problem with any football site is that often people think they know a great deal about what happens at a club by watching the team play on on a Saturday (or Sunday, or Monday, or Wednesday, OK rarely on a Saturday) and reading the drivel written by journos. The fact is that we know very little and particularly at Everton because Moyes (like many a predecessor) has kept the doors shut. things go wrong and it is kept inside the club. What comes out is need to know stuff, the minimum they can tell us to keep us happy.

The facts inside the club are different, and whatever Moyes has had to do to get us back to winning ways after an abysmal start will remain a secret until we win somethign and then every bugger "writes" their "auto"biography.

Whether the view is positive or negative it is often based on conjecture, what they read in the Mirror, what Sky Sports News just said, and a pinch of fact.

David Moyes has done a brilliant job and he was doing a necessary part of the job when we still put out a crap team (with many of the same players as now). We have no idea what that was. If anyone does they can tell us all via this great website.

Some of us like to beat ourselves with spoons, hairbrushes, slippers. What does that mean Michael? Are we just dirty buggers?
Steve Pugh
36   Posted 28/05/2009 at 12:17:32

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When Moyes gets it wrong he deserves to be criticised, as do we all.

When he does something good he deserves to be praised, again as do we all.

What I see on this site, and in this thread is the lack of ability in some posters to do both. Their is a section of posters who refuse to accept criticism and another section who refuse to accept praise, no matter what has happened. This is wrong.

There is also a tendency to ignore the times that people do adopt the stance opposite to their norm. If we win the cup take note of the positive comments from people like Michael, he’s done it before you know.

And phrases like "brown nosers" only show how blinkered the poster is.
Ray Burn
37   Posted 28/05/2009 at 12:44:25

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He?s cracking up,
He?s cracking up,
He?s cracking,
Kenrick?s cracking up.

Sorry MK, but there is an unmistakeable ring of Beneathusitis in your inability to give credit where it?s due, accept criticism or admit that you just might be wrong.
Stephen Stuart
38   Posted 28/05/2009 at 13:10:06

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What I hate here, and it?s evidenced above, again, is the almost religious fervour that some bring to any debate about Everton and especially David Moyes.

The expected belief that Moyes is the saviour, can do no wrong, that he?s learning, that he learns from mistakes, that we would be relegated without him clatter that constantly rings out makes it very difficult to have any rational discussion. Why? Because it immediately divides people into being believers or non-believers. It is arrogant. It is partisan. It is bigotry.

I don?t post here often these days. I am choosing not to ever post again. I do not need this blindness. I can watch Everton and make my own mind up, thank you. I do not need to be told what and who to believe.
Peter Lee
39   Posted 28/05/2009 at 12:36:55

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Brian, like pretty much everyone else Moyes is subject to criticism when he gets things wrong and praise when he gets things right. Same goes for every member of the team and staff at this club and others. He does have his flaws as every manager does, posting your opinion about what those flaws are/aren?t is surely no bad thing.

For myself I think he is a good manager who gets more right than he gets wrong. Personally I disagree with the LMA this year (the last 2 occasions he got this award I feel it was certainly deserved) I think there were more deserving candidates this year.

Michael Kenrick
40   Posted 28/05/2009 at 16:54:00

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If we ever institute Membership of this site, as Lyndon has threatened to do, I?m seriously tempted to introduce a pledge (along with a nice sizeable Membership Fee!) that says something like this:

"I understand the purpose of this website is to provide information and an exchange of opinions on anything and everything to do with Everton FC. I accept that my opinion of Everton may differ from those of other fans contributing to this website. While I exercise the right as a member to share my views, I also acknowledge the right of all other members to do the same, and I agree to refrain from telling them what they must think."

That seems to be the thin line most people have trouble with. Where does providing your opinion cross over to telling people what they should think or requiring them to react in a certain way? I?m with Stuart Smith on this, and the other lad who talked about religious fervour. For some of you, that?s what it?s all about. And you?re provided plenty of airtime here to express that, as much as you want. What is objectionable to me is that some people must ram their convictions down other people?s throats, and will refuse to accept alternate views. Can we not please move beyond that?

I defend the likes of Tony Marsh against his most aggressive opponents, not because I agree with him or think he's right, but because for me he is just expressing one narrow viewpoint from a thousnad or more you could hear any day inside Goodison.

But I guess at a certain level, football support is a basic tribal instinct that defies logical analysis and seeks unity. Hence the need for the Tribe to speak with One Voice. However, to me that smacks of totalitarianism. Most of us now live in a modern society that has hopefully moved beyond the tribal. I?m thinking there?s a way for us to express our unified support of the club we all love while accepting the diversity that (alright, not upbringing) personality and intelligence (or God, if you must!) has bestowed upon us.

No doubt you?ll tell me if I?m wrong...
Alan Clarke
41   Posted 28/05/2009 at 19:19:30

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Brian, you?re a self-righteous knob. No-one could have predicted we?d be here now. Moyes seems to have got it right but not that you predicted it.

I remember clearly us getting twatted at home in an inexcusable manner to the Shite this season. At that point, even you, Brian, must have had doubts about whether Moyes was the right man ? especially after he held the club to ransom over his contract.

I?m glad he stayed but Moyes has deserved a lot of the criticism in the past. A friend of mine spoke to him at the Macclesfield cup game and Moyes said ?scousers are a hard lot to please?. I?m glad he?s realised that.
James Boden
42   Posted 28/05/2009 at 21:37:57

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Aha, Brian Viner you have finally commented on here. I read your section everytime the Evertonian is posted here and I do think you make some interesting points.

However, not all things I agree with on you. But in your defense, I do believe you are genuinely one of a few who really believed something special could happen, even in the autumn, because you have been constant in your praise for Moyes.

However, let me remind you and several others just one thing ? Moyes has still yet to win a single trophy. Good manager he may be... and yes, I know he is far superior to Walter Smith, the fact is he has yet to win a thing. Hopefully, Saturday, I am made to eat my words.

Though I am only young, I was brought up on the NSNO. I do believe it matters. While I have never been Moyes's biggest fan, I have appreciated what he has done. But what really irks me is when some of his supporters speak as though he is the perfectionist. If someone so much dare says a negative word against him, then this website erupts. They call people all kind of names under the sun and tell people that they should support Man United if not happy.

I believe that the striker crisis was almost the best thing that could have happened because, with bone idol bullocks up front, we were getting nowhere because he wouldn?t move an inch and Moyes was too stubborn to drop him. Although I will credit Moyes in that I believe he is a great motivator, that cannot be questioned.

For heaven's sake, some of you cannot accept criticism when it is levelled at him. And what a ridiculous thing to suggest. Do you actually believe Tony Marsh is grinning at the prospect of moaning in defeat?

Look at this ? were you happy with the defeats to Shrewsbury and Oldham? Were you happy with the way we surrended in Bucharest? Were you happy with our start to this season? Were you happy with getting hammered at home by Portsmouth or getting outplayed at Wigan in a totally embarrassing performance.

The Wigan performance was the kick up the arse Moyes really needed ? any wonder why there was such a great improvement at Spurs the next week, or at Anfield in the League or against Villa in the Cup.
Let?s just hope we can all rejoice on Saturday evening but first we will be singing Abide With Me.
COYB

Damian Kelly
43   Posted 29/05/2009 at 09:55:50

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I’ve generally been pro Moyes but have also doubted and criticised - when it looked like he had lost the dressing room after that dreadful season, when he kept on playing Phil Neville in midfield, the style of football and particularly the start of this season. More often than not I’ve been wrong. It is our right to criticise but where I think you do a disservice Michael is that too many individuals have done it with personal abuse (coward, ditherer etc), with lack of balance and with minimal grace to recognise the positives.

Yes it is just as tedious when people think Moyes untouchable - listen to the interviews with the man himself - he has the humility to admit he makes mistakes and isnt the finished article. However, I also think a lot of the blindly pro Moyes stuff on TW is an antidote and a reaction to the sheer poison of some posters. Also, whilst you regularly (and rightly) call for tolerance of all points of view Michael, and you (rightly) practice this through posting all views, you often fail to live up to this yourself in your own comments which are often intolerant, patronising or insulting to proMoyes posters - your comments that the anti camp should be thanked for giving Moyes a kick up the backside does rather laughably shows a lack of balance and perspective.

Its your website (and an excellent one) so you can post what you like, but I personally believe a more neutral role from the "chairperson" would further improve the quality of the forum

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