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Remember the Name: George Green
, 2 October,
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Everton have beaten off interest from over 20 clubs, including some from abroad, to sign 15-year-old midfielder George Green, who is seen as one of the hottest prospects in the country.
The deal was done at Saturday's Merseyside derby. Dewsbury-born Green felt a move to Everton — and their reputation for blooding youngsters — was the best choice.
Bradford City will receive nearly £300,000 straight away from the first payment for a player who has come up through their school of excellence.
The deal is structured to include further bonuses for appearances, new contracts, potential international appearances and a bumper sell-on clause from any future transfer fee. The total fee could eventually top out at £1.75m.
Reader Comments (97)
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Ian Tunstead
2 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:08:02
2 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:08:02
What about that kid from Azerbaijan, Araz Abdullayev, think he's too young to come over here so still on loan in his homeland? You also forgot the Portuguese striker Silva and Vellios and Gueye.
I think the last few who are still here have been here since we signed that deal with the Football Manager scouting system, so maybe that might be part of the reason for the recent success. Maybe not.
I think the last few who are still here have been here since we signed that deal with the Football Manager scouting system, so maybe that might be part of the reason for the recent success. Maybe not.
Ian Tunstead
3 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:19:45
3 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:19:45
Let's not forget Fellaini either!
Spragg Johnson
4 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:46:49
4 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:46:49
Walter Smith's coup of a squillion pound on Steve Simonsen was a cracker too!
Seamus Murphy
5 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:41:03
5 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:41:03
Ian - you are a true apologist! Fellaini cost ?15M ffs!! Don't exactly need to be a genius to spot a 15M player.
Another one for your list Michael:? João Silva.
Another one for your list Michael:? João Silva.
Adam Fitzsimmons
6 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:53:07
6 Posted 03/10/2011 at 02:53:07
Michael.... I see your point, but them players you listed weren't wanted by the likes of Bayern Munich and Spurs. I think everyone should take a look at this.
http://www.boyfrombrazil.co.uk/2011/10/remember-the-name-george-green/
http://www.boyfrombrazil.co.uk/2011/10/remember-the-name-george-green/
Mike Gaynes
7 Posted 03/10/2011 at 04:26:24
7 Posted 03/10/2011 at 04:26:24
Sometimes, Michael, your eagerness to throw mud at Moyes is just ridiculous.
Even if your compilation is correct.... 15 failures and three still with us (actually six, if you decide to count Vellios, Gueye and Silva)... you have absolutely no idea whether that's a good percentage or not, do you?
How do you know how many young signees Sir Alex or Arsene discard for every one that makes it? For all you know, a success rate of 20-30 percent might make Moyes the most brilliant eye for talent in the world. Or maybe he's just as foolish and wasteful as you think he is. But you haven't the slightest freaking clue.
One thing I can tell you... in American baseball, where the structure is similar (sign young prospects, develop them in the lower leagues) but the talent race is far less competitive, the success rate of young players either drafted or signed as free agents out of school actually making the major leagues is about six percent.
Even if your compilation is correct.... 15 failures and three still with us (actually six, if you decide to count Vellios, Gueye and Silva)... you have absolutely no idea whether that's a good percentage or not, do you?
How do you know how many young signees Sir Alex or Arsene discard for every one that makes it? For all you know, a success rate of 20-30 percent might make Moyes the most brilliant eye for talent in the world. Or maybe he's just as foolish and wasteful as you think he is. But you haven't the slightest freaking clue.
One thing I can tell you... in American baseball, where the structure is similar (sign young prospects, develop them in the lower leagues) but the talent race is far less competitive, the success rate of young players either drafted or signed as free agents out of school actually making the major leagues is about six percent.
Michael Kenrick
8 Posted 03/10/2011 at 05:11:42
8 Posted 03/10/2011 at 05:11:42
Sorry it's upset you so much, Mike.
Well, no, I knew the apologists would kick up stink actually. Red rag and all that...
All I was doing was providing a list. I said nothing about percentages. And I was being generous calling Seamus a success but at least he is getting games. However, his progress has stalled. His best games under Moyes were his first after he came back from Blackpool and he has not improved. Actually, I think he's getting steadily worse. [Look what I did there: more mud!]
Maybe it's not fair to include players like Vellios, Gueye, or Silva as they were more than Academy players when they were brought in. On that basis, a couple should probably be dropped form my list. That'll improve the success percentage well above 6% won't it. Happy now?
Well, no, I knew the apologists would kick up stink actually. Red rag and all that...
All I was doing was providing a list. I said nothing about percentages. And I was being generous calling Seamus a success but at least he is getting games. However, his progress has stalled. His best games under Moyes were his first after he came back from Blackpool and he has not improved. Actually, I think he's getting steadily worse. [Look what I did there: more mud!]
Maybe it's not fair to include players like Vellios, Gueye, or Silva as they were more than Academy players when they were brought in. On that basis, a couple should probably be dropped form my list. That'll improve the success percentage well above 6% won't it. Happy now?
Gavin Ramejkis
9 Posted 03/10/2011 at 07:14:42
9 Posted 03/10/2011 at 07:14:42
I wouldn't include Silva as he hasn't kicked a ball for the first team yet and as far as comparisons to other teams in our peer group go you have to temper those with the cold hard fact that they buy first team players, this new buying of children is the only squad additions Everton can afford and at 15 there's no chance of seeing them in the first team for the best part of two years if we are lucky.
Matthew Lovekin
10 Posted 03/10/2011 at 07:36:04
10 Posted 03/10/2011 at 07:36:04
I hate to say it, but it is the only way Everton can do business now. Buy promising youngsters up to £0.5m and hopefully develop them into £10m players.
If we get 1 good (£10m) player for every 20 bad (£0.5m) players, then at least we have made our money back.
If we get 1 good (£10m) player for every 20 bad (£0.5m) players, then at least we have made our money back.
Stephen Kenny
11 Posted 03/10/2011 at 07:54:56
11 Posted 03/10/2011 at 07:54:56
Michael,
I would hazard a guess that the dosh paid out for all those players combined would not come anywhere near what Coleman, Vellios and Gueye alone would fetch.
Throw in Richard Wright was a full international and had gone to arsenal for big money, Gosling was apparently worth £4m based on reports on TW at the time he left and overall we are well in credit.
There's plenty of holes to pick in Moyes management, this isn't one of them.
I would hazard a guess that the dosh paid out for all those players combined would not come anywhere near what Coleman, Vellios and Gueye alone would fetch.
Throw in Richard Wright was a full international and had gone to arsenal for big money, Gosling was apparently worth £4m based on reports on TW at the time he left and overall we are well in credit.
There's plenty of holes to pick in Moyes management, this isn't one of them.
Howard Don
12 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:05:24
12 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:05:24
Michael (1) you are getting so pathetically predictable - never lose a chance to have a sarcastic go at Moyes. You're post looks like you're scoring a point against your hate object, but is in fact meaningless unless you give figures for in and out transfer fees and values of players currently still on the books.
Surely in our financial position a policy of trying to find stars of the future young and cheap has to have validity. OF COURSE many of them will fall by the wayside, but many will generate outward fees, if only modest, and it only takes one major coup like Coleman, to validate the whole strategy.
Surely in our financial position a policy of trying to find stars of the future young and cheap has to have validity. OF COURSE many of them will fall by the wayside, but many will generate outward fees, if only modest, and it only takes one major coup like Coleman, to validate the whole strategy.
Seamus McCrudden
13 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:16:42
13 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:16:42
Michael @ point 8. I must agree that Coleman hasn't looked the same player since his injury etc but I'm just wondering is it Moyes's defence first strategy that has taken the positive attacking play out of his game. If so he has taken away the best attributes of an attacking full back/ right sided midfielder and left him as just another ordinary player.
Nick Entwistle
14 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:23:32
14 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:23:32
Eddie Bosnar was what? About 24? Holiday visa back up boy.
Alan Rooney
15 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:27:35
15 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:27:35
Interesting Bradford fan comment on the Telegraph and Argus web site (where this story broke)
"The good news is this is everton, if the lad does make it they are a selling club so the sell on clause will soon kick in."
Is this the new Moyes/Kenwright strategy to finance the club?
"The good news is this is everton, if the lad does make it they are a selling club so the sell on clause will soon kick in."
Is this the new Moyes/Kenwright strategy to finance the club?
Denis Richardson
16 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:26:43
16 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:26:43
I guess £300k is not much in the world of the Premier League. Let's leave this one about 3 years and see where the kid gets to.
Joe Bibb
17 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:56:15
17 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:56:15
Tell the lad to practice his wing play, he won't see midfield if that is his preferred position.
Ste Lewis
18 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:59:23
18 Posted 03/10/2011 at 09:59:23
Selling Seamus now would pay for all the others!
Sam Hoare
19 Posted 03/10/2011 at 10:04:34
19 Posted 03/10/2011 at 10:04:34
MK, have to agree with the others that I have some quibbles with your list.
Wright- was hardly a snapped up youth. International who then lost form.
Ruddy and Jutkiewics- Both sold for profit i think?
Gosling- Should have been a hefty profit if not for boardroom bungling.
Arnoux and Peterlin- US longshots who came in on loan no?
Saeed- A loan, who returned when his mother was ill.
Pascucci- was a freebie.
Most of these players cost nothing (apart from some nominal wages maybe) or were sold for profit. Hardly a damning indictment then?
Wright- was hardly a snapped up youth. International who then lost form.
Ruddy and Jutkiewics- Both sold for profit i think?
Gosling- Should have been a hefty profit if not for boardroom bungling.
Arnoux and Peterlin- US longshots who came in on loan no?
Saeed- A loan, who returned when his mother was ill.
Pascucci- was a freebie.
Most of these players cost nothing (apart from some nominal wages maybe) or were sold for profit. Hardly a damning indictment then?
Ben Jones
20 Posted 03/10/2011 at 11:48:07
20 Posted 03/10/2011 at 11:48:07
Michael, people are right, more predictable digging and more inaccurate information. I mean Richard Wright as a youngster? Are you serious?
I think Sam's post proves our point.
I think Sam's post proves our point.
Dick Fearon
21 Posted 03/10/2011 at 12:22:53
21 Posted 03/10/2011 at 12:22:53
I don't want to get dragged into this minor squabble except to agree with Michael about Seamus coming to a full stop in his development. He must start showing a fair bit more than head down runs or he will be moved on like so many others. We carry a few too many players that have one half decent game in every ten and they should also be moved on or loaned out. Some time ago I said it is not unusual to see continental clubs having twenty or more youngsters out on loan.
Alex Kociuba
23 Posted 03/10/2011 at 12:33:31
23 Posted 03/10/2011 at 12:33:31
Mustaffi.. He was meant to be the next big thing too. I believe the German football federation changed their rules on young players going to foreign clubs as a result of his signing.
Kase Chow
25 Posted 03/10/2011 at 12:53:58
25 Posted 03/10/2011 at 12:53:58
What's wrong with Coleman?
He's fundamentally a right back who is learning a new position. He's good for around 5 goals a season plus a few assists. And when he went off on Saturday, the defensive protection that he offers was removed and the Shote scored from a move coming from....the left.
We're so quick to get on the backs of our players it's amazing. Coleman is one of the few players we have with genuine pace, that takes on players and is positive wit hthe ball at his feet and still we criticise him.
Stalled in his development......bollocks - who's a better option on the right than him? I think he'll be a better player in 2 years than he is today.....hence he's developing!
He's fundamentally a right back who is learning a new position. He's good for around 5 goals a season plus a few assists. And when he went off on Saturday, the defensive protection that he offers was removed and the Shote scored from a move coming from....the left.
We're so quick to get on the backs of our players it's amazing. Coleman is one of the few players we have with genuine pace, that takes on players and is positive wit hthe ball at his feet and still we criticise him.
Stalled in his development......bollocks - who's a better option on the right than him? I think he'll be a better player in 2 years than he is today.....hence he's developing!
Paul Foster
26 Posted 03/10/2011 at 13:24:36
26 Posted 03/10/2011 at 13:24:36
Like others, I'm taken aback by Michael's post. And it's not the first of its kind from our Editor of late. It seems everything he posts is rammed full of bitter sarcasm designed to discredit Moyes - irrespective of whether the argument stands up or not.
One of the hardest thing to do in football is predict who will make it and who won't. Anybody who has read Mick Rathbone's The Smell of Football will know that Mick himself was viewed as one of the country's most promising talents. On the big stage, however, he simply couldn't hack it. With absolutely no money to spend, Moyes HAS to take punts on young players. It's inevitable that most won't work out ... but when a couple do it's more than worth your while (e.g. Coleman).
On the subject of Coleman, how the hell do you know his progress has stalled? Were you granted access to a parallel universe where he stayed at Blackpool and became a world-beater? He was our young player of the year last season. Often astonishingly good. This season he has been out for a couple of months with an injury and has just returned. But on the basis of one game you have decided Moyes has made him rubbish?!
PS. Isn't it time you dropped the deeply unpleasant 'apologist' terminology? Why can't you just accept that some of us have a different view to you? Given how keen you are to tell us football is about opinions, it seems bizarre that you'd try to disparage fellow fans in this way just for disagreeing with you. We're not apologising for anything, we just happen to think you are wrong.
One of the hardest thing to do in football is predict who will make it and who won't. Anybody who has read Mick Rathbone's The Smell of Football will know that Mick himself was viewed as one of the country's most promising talents. On the big stage, however, he simply couldn't hack it. With absolutely no money to spend, Moyes HAS to take punts on young players. It's inevitable that most won't work out ... but when a couple do it's more than worth your while (e.g. Coleman).
On the subject of Coleman, how the hell do you know his progress has stalled? Were you granted access to a parallel universe where he stayed at Blackpool and became a world-beater? He was our young player of the year last season. Often astonishingly good. This season he has been out for a couple of months with an injury and has just returned. But on the basis of one game you have decided Moyes has made him rubbish?!
PS. Isn't it time you dropped the deeply unpleasant 'apologist' terminology? Why can't you just accept that some of us have a different view to you? Given how keen you are to tell us football is about opinions, it seems bizarre that you'd try to disparage fellow fans in this way just for disagreeing with you. We're not apologising for anything, we just happen to think you are wrong.
Kase Chow
28 Posted 03/10/2011 at 13:47:48
28 Posted 03/10/2011 at 13:47:48
What are you actually suggesting Michael anyway? That we're NOT in the market for good young players?
What are you advocating exactly? That we should save our £300K downpayment on George Green?
What are you advocating exactly? That we should save our £300K downpayment on George Green?
Liam Reilly
29 Posted 03/10/2011 at 13:45:26
29 Posted 03/10/2011 at 13:45:26
Can't understand this Coleman's development has stalled nonsense. He's a young player still learning his trade and as stated above, he goes off and they score.
I wouldn't be surprised if once in a while the players read this site. Having a go at the younger ones serves no purpose.
I wouldn't be surprised if once in a while the players read this site. Having a go at the younger ones serves no purpose.
Ian Tunstead
31 Posted 03/10/2011 at 13:58:27
31 Posted 03/10/2011 at 13:58:27
Seamus 5. had you actually hear of Fellaini before the Champions League game against Liverpool?
In what way am I being an apologist? I'm just stating a few young players brought in that Michael forgot to mention, theres nothing to say they will all make it.
In what way am I being an apologist? I'm just stating a few young players brought in that Michael forgot to mention, theres nothing to say they will all make it.
Marcus Kendall
32 Posted 03/10/2011 at 14:26:56
32 Posted 03/10/2011 at 14:26:56
I think its the best way forward in bringing in promising youngsters and trying to develop them, can't really see a downside to this kind of signing.
As for Mr Tunstead, erm Fellaini was well known when we bought him, infact he was being touted long before we signed him as a potential world beater
As for Mr Tunstead, erm Fellaini was well known when we bought him, infact he was being touted long before we signed him as a potential world beater
Paul Holden
35 Posted 03/10/2011 at 16:22:32
35 Posted 03/10/2011 at 16:22:32
trouble is, we'll sell him on to ManU or Man Shittee if he makes the grade
David Price
36 Posted 03/10/2011 at 17:29:59
36 Posted 03/10/2011 at 17:29:59
Alan #15, tell me we didn't put an add in the Telegraph for a player and then found him in an Argus catalogue or have i read it wrong?
Norman Grimwood
37 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:03:39
37 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:03:39
Here we go again. No money to buy ready made stars but cash to buy a maybe
Ray Robinson
38 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:14:21
38 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:14:21
Norman #31. So what's the alternative? Give up all hope and doing nothing?
Ian Tunstead
39 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:21:27
39 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:21:27
Marcus, i must just be ignorant, and so must everybody else i know, because i don't know anybody who had heard of Fellaini apart from Liverpool fans because they had played against him in the CL qualifier.
Judging by the rsponse to his signing on this site at the time, a huge portion of the fans on here had never heard of him either, so us Everton fans must all be ignorant.
Judging by the rsponse to his signing on this site at the time, a huge portion of the fans on here had never heard of him either, so us Everton fans must all be ignorant.
Robbie Muldoon
40 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:31:24
40 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:31:24
Yes, sign a promising young player so he can sit on the bench and watch Neville get a run out ahead of him as Barkley has to do.
Andy Crooks
41 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:52:40
41 Posted 03/10/2011 at 18:52:40
Kase, good stuff about Seamus Coleman. He has been a revelation. I just hope that Shane Duffy comes back from loan and continues to progress to become the best central defender in the premier league.
Sean Patton
43 Posted 03/10/2011 at 20:23:17
43 Posted 03/10/2011 at 20:23:17
The only snippet i have picked up is the coach at Bradford saying he might be another Gazza.
It seems a strange one to me as midfielders are ten a penny in the academy there are high hopes for Gethin Jones and Dan O'Brien who are both attacking midfielders.
It seems a strange one to me as midfielders are ten a penny in the academy there are high hopes for Gethin Jones and Dan O'Brien who are both attacking midfielders.
Alan Rooney
44 Posted 03/10/2011 at 20:24:58
44 Posted 03/10/2011 at 20:24:58
David #30. V Good except I don't think we could afford an advert in the Daily Telegraph and we would have to buy cash from Argos as they probably wouldn't allow us any credit.
The story broke in the Bradford 'Telegraph and Argus'
The story broke in the Bradford 'Telegraph and Argus'
Andrew Yates
45 Posted 03/10/2011 at 20:55:06
45 Posted 03/10/2011 at 20:55:06
I just hope this George Green gets settled quickly, works hard and shows some potential. If we have to take a gamble on a 15 year old in the hope he may come good over the next 5 years, then lets see what the future holds.
I much prefer this strategy as oppoesd to spending money we don't have...... £6m Beattie, £8m Johnson, £11.25m The Yak!!!! oh what returns we made on them bad boys!!!
Let's not forget we have 'at the moment' a £9m Russian flop, a 33 yr-old £5m centre half, although i do like Distin and hope Duffy learns alot from him to replace him.
Green may make it he may not but these kind of signings are the only way we can trade as a business.
I much prefer this strategy as oppoesd to spending money we don't have...... £6m Beattie, £8m Johnson, £11.25m The Yak!!!! oh what returns we made on them bad boys!!!
Let's not forget we have 'at the moment' a £9m Russian flop, a 33 yr-old £5m centre half, although i do like Distin and hope Duffy learns alot from him to replace him.
Green may make it he may not but these kind of signings are the only way we can trade as a business.
Marcus Kendall
46 Posted 03/10/2011 at 21:19:46
46 Posted 03/10/2011 at 21:19:46
Mr Tunstead, I'm not suggesting your ignorant , just suggesting that buying a full Belgian international for around £15 million and having teams like Bayern Munich monitoring him means he was fairly well known.....
Ian Tunstead
47 Posted 03/10/2011 at 22:11:51
47 Posted 03/10/2011 at 22:11:51
Fair enough Marcus but Araz Abdullayev was a full international as well but i doubt many had heard of him. Fellaini "was fairly well known....." Maybe in Belgium and by scouts from the top clubs but i doubt the average football fan would have heard of him. Apparently Bayern were monitoring George Green aswell and like the Green deal is being paid in installments i have heard Fellaini being called the "Chocolate Rooney" by Standard Leige fans because apparently they never got the £15 m upfront.
Chris Leyland
48 Posted 03/10/2011 at 22:27:42
48 Posted 03/10/2011 at 22:27:42
Fantastic we sign a young player who 20 other clubs were supposedly after. We actually spent some money on someone for once and all the usual whingers can do is use it as another reason to have a pop at Moyes.
I bet if you boys were Barca fans you would have been on their whingerweb equivalent slagging them off in 2000 for signing some no-mark Argentinian 13 year old with a growth hormone deficiency. "What the fuck have we signed some kid with a growth deficiency for etc."
How about giving the club some credit for actually winning the battle to sign the kid and seeing what happens with him rather than assuming the usual herd-like negative stance?
I bet if you boys were Barca fans you would have been on their whingerweb equivalent slagging them off in 2000 for signing some no-mark Argentinian 13 year old with a growth hormone deficiency. "What the fuck have we signed some kid with a growth deficiency for etc."
How about giving the club some credit for actually winning the battle to sign the kid and seeing what happens with him rather than assuming the usual herd-like negative stance?
Lyndon Lloyd
49 Posted 03/10/2011 at 23:21:46
49 Posted 03/10/2011 at 23:21:46
Pretty churlish initial response there, if you ask me, Michael. As others have mentioned, we don't know what the success rate is of these youngsters at other clubs, but seeing as the majority are English and the Premier League is stuffed full of foreigners, I'd wager it's about the same as ours.
I would say that Dan Gosling's contributions in his time at Everton would put him not far behind Seamus Coleman in terms of repaying the initial outlay and, had the club played his contract negotiations right, we'd have got £4m for him.
And if you can get one right out of 20 and either make a first-team player out of him that saves you millions or sell him on for as much as or more than you spent on the other 19, then I think you're doing all right.
Right now, EFC are clearly having to operate on a youth-focused footing where Moyes is going to have to punt on many more players in this age bracket because we can't afford to compete monetarily with the rest of the division. More power to him...
Nick Entwistle
50 Posted 03/10/2011 at 23:39:26
50 Posted 03/10/2011 at 23:39:26
One MK missed off the list, Bjarni Vidarsson. Now at KV Mechelen.
Michael Kenrick
51 Posted 04/10/2011 at 04:23:46
51 Posted 04/10/2011 at 04:23:46
Okay, let's get a couple of things clear: this has nothing to do with other clubs. I don't care about other clubs. I couldn't give two shits who other clubs may have bought or groomed.
I'm interested in tracking the progress of youngsters who join Everton (that's E V E R T O N...) ? usually by one of three pathways:
Local kids who join Everton Academy, usually at a very early age;
Young cast-offs rejected by other clubs who join the Everton Academy, usually as teenagers;
Young prodigies who are scouted by Everton and purchased for a usually not inconsequential (undisclosed) fee.
Youth development is our path forward; all I was doing was clarifying the relatively low success rate that appears to apply. Is it the norm? Frankly, it does not matter; it is what it is. All the rest has been interpretation that the apologists ? noses bent out of joint ? have got excited about.
Are we short of money? Is it a reasonable risk to take, considering the very low odds of producing a good one? At least some contributors addressed the issues raised and considered answers to those and other questions, rather than slinging abuse.
I deal in realities, Lyndon ? not fantasies. We got £0M for Gosling ? not £4M; we paid how much? Remember? £1M. Maybe we got a good return... 40-odd games and 6 goals... Hmm... on that basis ? 40-odd games and six goals ? then Coleman (at £60k vs £1M) is a helluva success.
I would agree with others who have noticed that Moyes does not have a good record of bringing this young players through. He actually holds them back or plays them out of position: Rooney, Coleman... Rodwell.. now Barkley. The apologists will deny it ... but I think they know it's true.
I'm interested in tracking the progress of youngsters who join Everton (that's E V E R T O N...) ? usually by one of three pathways:
Local kids who join Everton Academy, usually at a very early age;
Young cast-offs rejected by other clubs who join the Everton Academy, usually as teenagers;
Young prodigies who are scouted by Everton and purchased for a usually not inconsequential (undisclosed) fee.
Youth development is our path forward; all I was doing was clarifying the relatively low success rate that appears to apply. Is it the norm? Frankly, it does not matter; it is what it is. All the rest has been interpretation that the apologists ? noses bent out of joint ? have got excited about.
Are we short of money? Is it a reasonable risk to take, considering the very low odds of producing a good one? At least some contributors addressed the issues raised and considered answers to those and other questions, rather than slinging abuse.
I deal in realities, Lyndon ? not fantasies. We got £0M for Gosling ? not £4M; we paid how much? Remember? £1M. Maybe we got a good return... 40-odd games and 6 goals... Hmm... on that basis ? 40-odd games and six goals ? then Coleman (at £60k vs £1M) is a helluva success.
I would agree with others who have noticed that Moyes does not have a good record of bringing this young players through. He actually holds them back or plays them out of position: Rooney, Coleman... Rodwell.. now Barkley. The apologists will deny it ... but I think they know it's true.
Lyndon Lloyd
52 Posted 04/10/2011 at 06:54:57
52 Posted 04/10/2011 at 06:54:57
Well, it's highly convenient to ignore what's happening at other clubs but at some point the collective record of Premier League clubs' success at bringing in and developing youth players provides a yardstick by which to judge our own at Everton... Kinda like we need the league table to determine how we're doing against our peers.
And while it's technically correct to point out that we didn't actually get anything for Dan Gosling, it ignores the point that had the club not made a bureaucratic balls-up, we would at the very least have broken even and, more than likely, made a profit on him. So, again, churlish to pass that off as fantasy when we're talking about whether the player was worth bringing in in the first place.
The list of players whose teenage promise was never entirely or even remotely fulfilled is long and pre-dates Moyes -- ask Danny Cadamarteri and Francis Jeffers -- so it's an inherently unpredictable process but for the sake of £300k up front for a player being chased by 20-odd other clubs, I think we can afford Moyes a little slack on this one.
And while it's technically correct to point out that we didn't actually get anything for Dan Gosling, it ignores the point that had the club not made a bureaucratic balls-up, we would at the very least have broken even and, more than likely, made a profit on him. So, again, churlish to pass that off as fantasy when we're talking about whether the player was worth bringing in in the first place.
The list of players whose teenage promise was never entirely or even remotely fulfilled is long and pre-dates Moyes -- ask Danny Cadamarteri and Francis Jeffers -- so it's an inherently unpredictable process but for the sake of £300k up front for a player being chased by 20-odd other clubs, I think we can afford Moyes a little slack on this one.
Steve Pugh
53 Posted 04/10/2011 at 07:32:01
53 Posted 04/10/2011 at 07:32:01
All I can say is that Michael must be a very happy Evertonian. By ignoring all the other clubs Everton are top of the league.
Ignoring other clubs is simply stupid. You can only guage success by comparison. After all the league is just a way of comparing the playing abilities of the clubs involved.
Ignoring other clubs is simply stupid. You can only guage success by comparison. After all the league is just a way of comparing the playing abilities of the clubs involved.
Chris Wright
54 Posted 04/10/2011 at 08:39:12
54 Posted 04/10/2011 at 08:39:12
And there I was thinking Moyes would have none of Arteta's £10 million to spend. Shows how wrong I was.
Howard Don
55 Posted 04/10/2011 at 09:50:30
55 Posted 04/10/2011 at 09:50:30
Healey's law of holes Michael - "when you're in one stop digging."
Also can we stop the "apologists" nonesense. It's tired and meaningless.
Also can we stop the "apologists" nonesense. It's tired and meaningless.
Paul Foster
56 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:12:27
56 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:12:27
Hear hear on stopping the "apologists" nonsense. It is unbelievably rude and not what you'd expect from an editor who prides himself on making room for opinions from both ends of the spectrum. Referring to those with a different opinion to you as apologists is a cheap trick that does you no favours, Michael. There are fans on here covering the full spectrum of opinions about Moyes and everything else to do with Everton. Give them some credit and allow them to express opinions unaligned with your own without being ridiculed for it.
Charlie Dixon
57 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:29:18
57 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:29:18
I cant believe having read this thread how negative some people are. This could potentially be a very shrewd bit of business. I for one would prefer us buying young hungry british talent then spending vast sums of average premier league players (N'Zogbia, Adam etc). In reality do we have any pther option?
The kid is clearly half decent if so many clubs were interested in him. He is joining the Under 18's National FA Premier Academy League Champions and is now hopefully one of 4 or 5 players (Hope, Barkley, Garbutt, McAleny) who should break through.
To pan this move outright is quite simply pathetic. Imagine if the 15 year old was to read this... about time the doomongers snapped out of it. This is OUR football team for fuck's sake!
The kid is clearly half decent if so many clubs were interested in him. He is joining the Under 18's National FA Premier Academy League Champions and is now hopefully one of 4 or 5 players (Hope, Barkley, Garbutt, McAleny) who should break through.
To pan this move outright is quite simply pathetic. Imagine if the 15 year old was to read this... about time the doomongers snapped out of it. This is OUR football team for fuck's sake!
Trevor Mackie
58 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:30:01
58 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:30:01
Although I don't use the "apologist" term myself I think it's accurate and only irritating because the truth hurts.
I consider the mess this club finds itself in is partly due to Moyes, he's had nearly a decade and still produces turgid uncompetitive teams going absolutely nowhere.
Supporters of Moyes never disagree they just excuse him - it comes over as apologising for supporting Everton's downfall.
Come to think of it "apologists" are as culpable as Moyes and Kenwright for accepting such rubbish - if apologists "grew a pair" we wouldn't be in this mess.
Get a grip.
I consider the mess this club finds itself in is partly due to Moyes, he's had nearly a decade and still produces turgid uncompetitive teams going absolutely nowhere.
Supporters of Moyes never disagree they just excuse him - it comes over as apologising for supporting Everton's downfall.
Come to think of it "apologists" are as culpable as Moyes and Kenwright for accepting such rubbish - if apologists "grew a pair" we wouldn't be in this mess.
Get a grip.
Sam Hoare
59 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:52:31
59 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:52:31
Quite clearly with our current state of finances we are going to be relying on bargain basement buys and youth players for the next 5-10 years unless that elusive investor turns up.
Happily our youth system is looking pretty rosy. We won the academy league last season and youngsters like Garbutt, Hope, Lundstram and Barkley all have England caps and potential in their corner.
If Green can join in and fingers crossed become the next Gascoigne or even the next Leon Osman then it will be a great move. If he turns out to be the next Michael Branch then so be it. He won't be the last. 250k isn't a kings ransom and i for one applaud the effort to compete for the next possible big thing.
Happily our youth system is looking pretty rosy. We won the academy league last season and youngsters like Garbutt, Hope, Lundstram and Barkley all have England caps and potential in their corner.
If Green can join in and fingers crossed become the next Gascoigne or even the next Leon Osman then it will be a great move. If he turns out to be the next Michael Branch then so be it. He won't be the last. 250k isn't a kings ransom and i for one applaud the effort to compete for the next possible big thing.
Ian Tunstead
60 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:44:35
60 Posted 04/10/2011 at 10:44:35
Michael who has ever denied that Moyes plays people out of position? The issue is that he has to play players out of position because he has had to deal with injuries, or simply because he can not afford to buy top players for specific positions and so opts to bring in players who can do a job in a number of positions. Anyway it is not exclusive to Everton, every team in the world does it.
I would also argue that he has not held players back, if anything he has pushed them forward too early, look at Baxter and Wallace for example who were perhaps not ready to play at the top level.
Obviously everyone is excited about Barkley and wants to see him play every week but maybe Moyes knows best and feels he was not up to playing against the likes of Man City or Liverpool, we could not afford a young inexperienced player to make the same mistakes against Liverpool that he made against Blackburn or go missing like he did against West Brom. He will get plenty of oppertunities over the course of a season, don't let it wind you up.
I would also argue that he has not held players back, if anything he has pushed them forward too early, look at Baxter and Wallace for example who were perhaps not ready to play at the top level.
Obviously everyone is excited about Barkley and wants to see him play every week but maybe Moyes knows best and feels he was not up to playing against the likes of Man City or Liverpool, we could not afford a young inexperienced player to make the same mistakes against Liverpool that he made against Blackburn or go missing like he did against West Brom. He will get plenty of oppertunities over the course of a season, don't let it wind you up.
Ian Tunstead
61 Posted 04/10/2011 at 11:06:08
61 Posted 04/10/2011 at 11:06:08
Trevor, I guess you might call me an apologist beause I have a more positive and realsitic outlook to yourself and Michael, but it doesn't wind me up in the slightest and I have never complained about it, if anything it makes me laugh because it shows you when people are losing the arguement. It's the attitude that "Your opinion doesn't count anyway because you're just an applogist."
"Come to think of it "apologists" are as culpable as Moyes and Kenwright for accepting such rubbish ? if apologists "grew a pair" we wouldn't be in this mess."
Well then Trevor what would you suggest we do, get rid of Moyes and bring in Di Matteo, Holloway, Martinez Dave Jones or some other manager who has been sacked or relegated and never finished above Moyes?
"Come to think of it "apologists" are as culpable as Moyes and Kenwright for accepting such rubbish ? if apologists "grew a pair" we wouldn't be in this mess."
Well then Trevor what would you suggest we do, get rid of Moyes and bring in Di Matteo, Holloway, Martinez Dave Jones or some other manager who has been sacked or relegated and never finished above Moyes?
Sam Hoare
62 Posted 04/10/2011 at 11:29:05
62 Posted 04/10/2011 at 11:29:05
Trevor...seriously?
So if people who think that Moyes has done an OK job are responsible for Everton's apparent downfall then i guess that means you can blame pretty much the whole world except a a few digruntled Toffeeweb readers?
Listen to yourself.
So if people who think that Moyes has done an OK job are responsible for Everton's apparent downfall then i guess that means you can blame pretty much the whole world except a a few digruntled Toffeeweb readers?
Listen to yourself.
John Daley
63 Posted 04/10/2011 at 11:05:11
63 Posted 04/10/2011 at 11:05:11
Why's everyone kicking off about the list of young players Moyes has taken a punt on only for them to fail to make grade? It's not like MK was doing anything but pointing out the truth. Youth prospects seldom reach the standard necessary to suceed at the top level and are invariably moved on to a lower league club or the scrapheap. Shit happens.
I think part of the problem is that years ago we never really heard about such deals. Players just came in , played with the academy or reserves and only came on to the supporters radar when they were knocking on the door of the first team. Nowadays every single deal is publicised and almost every young player straight out of primary school is proclaimed to be a prodigy, or 'the next Rooney', when it's far more likely they'll end up being the next Stuart Barlow or some holding midfielder for the local pub team.
The success rate of such 'starlets' has unquestionably been disappointing over the last decade, and I don't believe it to be negative or overly critical to point this out. People seem to be seeing 'Moyes bashing' everywhere at the moment, even when there's nothing really there. Like Derek fucking Acorah pointing out some 'spirit' he can see clear as day even though he possesses the paranormal powers of a piece of white dog shit.
I think part of the problem is that years ago we never really heard about such deals. Players just came in , played with the academy or reserves and only came on to the supporters radar when they were knocking on the door of the first team. Nowadays every single deal is publicised and almost every young player straight out of primary school is proclaimed to be a prodigy, or 'the next Rooney', when it's far more likely they'll end up being the next Stuart Barlow or some holding midfielder for the local pub team.
The success rate of such 'starlets' has unquestionably been disappointing over the last decade, and I don't believe it to be negative or overly critical to point this out. People seem to be seeing 'Moyes bashing' everywhere at the moment, even when there's nothing really there. Like Derek fucking Acorah pointing out some 'spirit' he can see clear as day even though he possesses the paranormal powers of a piece of white dog shit.
Stu Smith
64 Posted 04/10/2011 at 12:11:36
64 Posted 04/10/2011 at 12:11:36
Best bit of Moyes business IMO..... McFadden bought for £1.25m sold for £6m I think that profit probably covers all the youngsters that didn't make the grade.
On another note: knowing how youth football works sometimes kids are released because they want to get regular 1st team football & ask to go because they know they won't break into their current clubs 1st Xl for a couple of years.
On another note: knowing how youth football works sometimes kids are released because they want to get regular 1st team football & ask to go because they know they won't break into their current clubs 1st Xl for a couple of years.
Paul Foster
65 Posted 04/10/2011 at 12:14:32
65 Posted 04/10/2011 at 12:14:32
"Supporters of Moyes never disagree they just excuse him - it comes over as apologising for supporting Everton's downfall."
And therein lies the problem: you have just lumped together anybody who supports Moyes - to any degree - and called them apologists. Truth is, there are many people, like me, who criticise many aspects of what he does - and criticise him quite vocally - but happen to think he is also one of top managers in the division.
The problem is not that I apologise for his weaknesses. The problem is that some people appear incapable of acknowledging his strengths.
And therein lies the problem: you have just lumped together anybody who supports Moyes - to any degree - and called them apologists. Truth is, there are many people, like me, who criticise many aspects of what he does - and criticise him quite vocally - but happen to think he is also one of top managers in the division.
The problem is not that I apologise for his weaknesses. The problem is that some people appear incapable of acknowledging his strengths.
Jimmy Sorheim
66 Posted 04/10/2011 at 12:23:22
66 Posted 04/10/2011 at 12:23:22
What are his strengths? Defensive approach is great but even that is failing us this season. What is left of Moyes? Hardly nothing, he seems to be burned out and I can understand his feelings, but he is in denial. We are reduced to a relegation side, all because he has sold the wrong players.
I mean letting go of 3 strikers with two of them being top strikers does us no good. Moyes has lost it in my opinion and his refusing to play Stracqualursi is just insane, even he lacks match practice he needs to play because nobody else has his goal nose. Also he is stronger than Saha and therefore he fits our style of play better.
Maybe if we use them both we would have a chance of scoring but at the moment Moyes wants to rub it in, we have no quality in depth. So what, use all you have got. Starting against QPR and Wigan with only one striker is insane and people are getting sick of it. I am sick of it, I hate it, it shows that he hasn't got any attacking genes in his body. Our midfield can not create enough chances so we therefore need more then one striker to have any chance of scoring.
I mean letting go of 3 strikers with two of them being top strikers does us no good. Moyes has lost it in my opinion and his refusing to play Stracqualursi is just insane, even he lacks match practice he needs to play because nobody else has his goal nose. Also he is stronger than Saha and therefore he fits our style of play better.
Maybe if we use them both we would have a chance of scoring but at the moment Moyes wants to rub it in, we have no quality in depth. So what, use all you have got. Starting against QPR and Wigan with only one striker is insane and people are getting sick of it. I am sick of it, I hate it, it shows that he hasn't got any attacking genes in his body. Our midfield can not create enough chances so we therefore need more then one striker to have any chance of scoring.
Ben Jones
68 Posted 04/10/2011 at 13:58:13
68 Posted 04/10/2011 at 13:58:13
Absolutely unbeliavable some people on this site. We sign, who's considered one of the top propsects of the country, who almost every Premier League side wanted, and still we are being criticised.
Haha, and Michael has thought of his own group, the supporters of the Moyes, or the apologists i.e 95% of Everton fans.
Why don't the non-apologists start a protest ey? Even the Blue Union members support Moyes
Haha, and Michael has thought of his own group, the supporters of the Moyes, or the apologists i.e 95% of Everton fans.
Why don't the non-apologists start a protest ey? Even the Blue Union members support Moyes
Ryan Holroyd
69 Posted 04/10/2011 at 14:03:17
69 Posted 04/10/2011 at 14:03:17
How does anyone know that it was David Moyes who scouted this player?
I'm pretty sure we have scouts working for our academy and I doubt Moyes had anything to do with this youth signing.
I'm pretty sure we have scouts working for our academy and I doubt Moyes had anything to do with this youth signing.
Ian Tunstead
70 Posted 04/10/2011 at 14:29:22
70 Posted 04/10/2011 at 14:29:22
Ryan Moyes isn't a scout, the top managers havn't got the time to manage and scout that is why we have "scouts". The scouts will inform the manager but it's then up to the manager to make the final decision.
The player might have been watched by our scouts over a dozzen times. Moyes will be informed and will probably watch him half a dozzen times himself before making the decision. But obviously "dithering davey" didn't dither and made a move before all the other managers.
The player might have been watched by our scouts over a dozzen times. Moyes will be informed and will probably watch him half a dozzen times himself before making the decision. But obviously "dithering davey" didn't dither and made a move before all the other managers.
Damian Kelly
71 Posted 04/10/2011 at 16:42:48
71 Posted 04/10/2011 at 16:42:48
If he turns out to be anywhere near as good as Rooney, Barkley, Rodwell etc, he'll be in the first team squad in 12-18 months time so its not necessarily a purchase for 5 years in the future.
However, if he is that good he'll be gone in 2-3 years time for £10-30million (in stage payments plus 3 united reserves).
God, isnt that depressing - he either drifts into obscurity, does just enough to get in the team and irritate us every week on an ongoing basis or gives us a fleeting vision of what could be and then breaks our hearts.
Football's shit.
However, if he is that good he'll be gone in 2-3 years time for £10-30million (in stage payments plus 3 united reserves).
God, isnt that depressing - he either drifts into obscurity, does just enough to get in the team and irritate us every week on an ongoing basis or gives us a fleeting vision of what could be and then breaks our hearts.
Football's shit.
Gavin Ramejkis
72 Posted 04/10/2011 at 16:37:32
72 Posted 04/10/2011 at 16:37:32
The spotlight on ALL signings the club make for the foreseeable future as they have to make the grade, the club simply can't operate without a first team squad or producing talent they can sell to pay the bills. Scouting and signing youth talent is admirable but not every signing will work out, these signings are another gamble but all the club can afford.
Damian Kelly
73 Posted 04/10/2011 at 17:21:55
73 Posted 04/10/2011 at 17:21:55
Agree Gavin - the reality is that we're better of signing10 George Greens, hoping one of them pans out and taking the hit on the rest than making a big signing that might turn into a Yak or Billy where we lose our shirt or a potential Felli Bosman
Lee Armstrong
74 Posted 04/10/2011 at 17:28:46
74 Posted 04/10/2011 at 17:28:46
Are some people seriously complaining about us signing a kid who tore apart one of the top 6 academy teams in the country (u17) scoring 4 goals in half a game at 15? For less than the price of Arteta's wages for the last month... there must be a reason the kid had every scout in the country after him. The fact that he chose to come to Everton over all the riches and CL stature of the other clubs shows how good a job Moyes does bringing along young players. Anyone bashing Moyes or the club for this signing seriously needs their head testing.
Barkley has played less than 5 first team games and has been touted around for £20-£30m. That in itself suggests how important it is for us to be at the forefront of developing young players.
Barkley has played less than 5 first team games and has been touted around for £20-£30m. That in itself suggests how important it is for us to be at the forefront of developing young players.
Ryan Holroyd
75 Posted 04/10/2011 at 18:05:53
75 Posted 04/10/2011 at 18:05:53
Must say pretty poor form using a 15 year old as a stick to beat Moyes.
Trevor Mackie
76 Posted 04/10/2011 at 18:57:02
76 Posted 04/10/2011 at 18:57:02
Paul @ 58
" happen to think he is also one of top managers in the division.
The problem is not that I apologise for his weaknesses. The problem is that some people appear incapable of acknowledging his strengths."
Being at the top end of the homogenous shite that pass for managers in the EPL does not a good manager make.
Disingenuous comment about his strengths, when he gets it right he is generously received here and other places the issue is why is it once in a blue moon.
As you say, you recognise he's absolutely hopeless so why put up with it?
" happen to think he is also one of top managers in the division.
The problem is not that I apologise for his weaknesses. The problem is that some people appear incapable of acknowledging his strengths."
Being at the top end of the homogenous shite that pass for managers in the EPL does not a good manager make.
Disingenuous comment about his strengths, when he gets it right he is generously received here and other places the issue is why is it once in a blue moon.
As you say, you recognise he's absolutely hopeless so why put up with it?
Jimmy Sorheim
77 Posted 04/10/2011 at 18:55:14
77 Posted 04/10/2011 at 18:55:14
I agree with Trevor Mackie about Moyes. When it comes to buying young players, it is a gamble. And it is about how much you pay for them. Just look at Arsenal, they know exactly how to do this.
Everton is just getting to know this new strategy, it takes time and I belive we don't have much time left. In January, we simply have to get a replacement for one of the many players that have left us: Pienaar, Arteta, Yakubu, Beckford. It speaks for itself that you have to replace quality with quality.
As Roy Hodgson said while at Viking Stavanger: You cant win anything with just kids, that is where we are at the moment, too many kids. We need more players like Arteta and Pienaar, and if there are any money left we must secure a loan for donovan or someone like him if we are to survive this season. That is the clue, THIS season.
Everton is just getting to know this new strategy, it takes time and I belive we don't have much time left. In January, we simply have to get a replacement for one of the many players that have left us: Pienaar, Arteta, Yakubu, Beckford. It speaks for itself that you have to replace quality with quality.
As Roy Hodgson said while at Viking Stavanger: You cant win anything with just kids, that is where we are at the moment, too many kids. We need more players like Arteta and Pienaar, and if there are any money left we must secure a loan for donovan or someone like him if we are to survive this season. That is the clue, THIS season.
Trevor Mackie
78 Posted 04/10/2011 at 19:09:23
78 Posted 04/10/2011 at 19:09:23
Ian @ 54
I'm a great advocate of Martinez he's one of only a few managers I've seen who appears to have a plan in the British game.
How he gets on at Wigan is almost incidental so precarious is their EPL presence.
Holloway wouldn't fill me with dread simply because the spirit and character he brings is sadly missing at the great Everton.
I just don't buy the fact there is no-one on gods green earth who cannot improve on the Moyes decade which is limping on through fear not ambition.
As I said if you support Moyes even though you acknowledge all the "stuff" - there's something wrong with you.
I'm a great advocate of Martinez he's one of only a few managers I've seen who appears to have a plan in the British game.
How he gets on at Wigan is almost incidental so precarious is their EPL presence.
Holloway wouldn't fill me with dread simply because the spirit and character he brings is sadly missing at the great Everton.
I just don't buy the fact there is no-one on gods green earth who cannot improve on the Moyes decade which is limping on through fear not ambition.
As I said if you support Moyes even though you acknowledge all the "stuff" - there's something wrong with you.
Ian Tunstead
79 Posted 04/10/2011 at 20:42:15
79 Posted 04/10/2011 at 20:42:15
Jimmy, Alan Hansen also said you can't win anything with kids and ended up with egg on his face when Man U proved him wrong. We haven't been able to win anything with Arteta or Pienaar so might as well move them on and give the wonder kids a go.
Ian Tunstead
80 Posted 04/10/2011 at 20:47:14
80 Posted 04/10/2011 at 20:47:14
Trevor, Matinez was lucky not to be relegated last season, and i would be very suprised if he doesnt get relegated this season, his passing football with inferior players will not get him anywhere as proved year after year after year.
As for Holloway, someone with spirit and character is not what makes a good manager or a good team. He is just another manager in the long list, hyped up by the media because he gives them something to write about but he will not finish above a Moyes side.
As for Holloway, someone with spirit and character is not what makes a good manager or a good team. He is just another manager in the long list, hyped up by the media because he gives them something to write about but he will not finish above a Moyes side.
James Morgan
81 Posted 04/10/2011 at 21:01:16
81 Posted 04/10/2011 at 21:01:16
I wonder if the likes of Mr Kenrick would happy if we turned away from this player?
Maybe he'd use it as a way to bash Moyes for poor judgement because the lad ended up going to Bayern Munich and he'd criticise those 'apologists' for saying it was the right thing to do not gambling the huge £300k.
The simple fact is other clubs would have loved to get this kid and here we are with the usual moaning gets using something positive and trying to make it negative. Jesus.
And no, I'm not a Moyes 'apologist' because I believe the guy certainly has his faults but to use this good piece of news to try and have a go at the man is desperate and petty.
Brendan McLaughlin
82 Posted 04/10/2011 at 21:04:22
82 Posted 04/10/2011 at 21:04:22
I remember a discussion not that long ago with Steve McClaren after his success in Europe being touted as an improvement on Moyes. Just been sacked as manager of struggling Forest ....careful what you wish for?
The only possible silver lining is that the Chairman also went as well I think.
The only possible silver lining is that the Chairman also went as well I think.
Trevor Mackie
83 Posted 04/10/2011 at 21:06:38
83 Posted 04/10/2011 at 21:06:38
Ian
I expected you to avoid the critical point about Wigan because it's what you do, but you cannot deny the Swansea achievement - they are in the Prem based on the foundations and transformation he brought.
Your Holloway outburst was hot air, because spirit and character are essential to becoming good in any walk of life - most certainly sport - and you simply don't know about Holloway - he hasn't managed a club the size of Everton.
I expected you to avoid the critical point about Wigan because it's what you do, but you cannot deny the Swansea achievement - they are in the Prem based on the foundations and transformation he brought.
Your Holloway outburst was hot air, because spirit and character are essential to becoming good in any walk of life - most certainly sport - and you simply don't know about Holloway - he hasn't managed a club the size of Everton.
Ian Tunstead
84 Posted 04/10/2011 at 21:59:12
84 Posted 04/10/2011 at 21:59:12
Hang on Trevor, did Martinez actually get Swansea up? No. Either way they will not last long in the prem.
You are the one who has avoided the critical point; non of the many managers put forward on here have finished above Moyes except Mark Hughes and Harry Redknapp who had spent many millions more than Moyes did.
As Brendan states, there goes another to add to the list. People on here wanted McClaren in for Moyes. When will people learn Moyes is on another level.
You are right Spirit and character are essential and that is what Moyes sides are known for, but they are clearly not everything because we havn't won anything.
You are the one who has avoided the critical point; non of the many managers put forward on here have finished above Moyes except Mark Hughes and Harry Redknapp who had spent many millions more than Moyes did.
As Brendan states, there goes another to add to the list. People on here wanted McClaren in for Moyes. When will people learn Moyes is on another level.
You are right Spirit and character are essential and that is what Moyes sides are known for, but they are clearly not everything because we havn't won anything.
Trevor Mackie
85 Posted 04/10/2011 at 22:45:31
85 Posted 04/10/2011 at 22:45:31
Ian
Spurrious stuff the managers who've had the luxury of 10 yrs unfettered control have won stuff, make a decent comparison if you must.
As have other managers who didn't have Rooney as a welcome on board gift.
Sorry Ian this stuff about Moyes being the greatest thing since sliced bread doesn't stand examination.
Spurrious stuff the managers who've had the luxury of 10 yrs unfettered control have won stuff, make a decent comparison if you must.
As have other managers who didn't have Rooney as a welcome on board gift.
Sorry Ian this stuff about Moyes being the greatest thing since sliced bread doesn't stand examination.
Ian Tunstead
86 Posted 04/10/2011 at 23:08:13
86 Posted 04/10/2011 at 23:08:13
I'm not saying Moyes is the greatest thing since sliced bread, i'm saying he's better than other managers named on here as realistic options.
The fact that Moyes has lasted 10 years says he's doing something right, the other 2 in the league have spent millions more than Moyes. The moment Wenger stops spending, suprise suprise his team starts to flounder.
Even with the Rooney money we have had to buy on the cheap, £25m is nothing by prem standards, £20 over a period of 2 Years and the other £5m on the drip over the following 5 years.
The fact that Moyes has lasted 10 years says he's doing something right, the other 2 in the league have spent millions more than Moyes. The moment Wenger stops spending, suprise suprise his team starts to flounder.
Even with the Rooney money we have had to buy on the cheap, £25m is nothing by prem standards, £20 over a period of 2 Years and the other £5m on the drip over the following 5 years.
Marcus Kendall
87 Posted 05/10/2011 at 00:09:14
87 Posted 05/10/2011 at 00:09:14
I agree with Mr Tunstead, Moyes is miles better than the likes of Holloway and Martinez, not sure why people think martinez plays this free flowing football because quite frankly Wigan are boring to watch (check there goals for column for evidence, its always one of the lowest or lowest in the Prem)
Then again I disagree with Mr Tunstead that theres not better managers out there we could realistically get (Poyet and Lambert for starters) I also rate Lee Clark and Nigel Adfkins but they would be more risky then the aforementioned two.
I wouldn't say the reason Wenger is floundering is because hes stopped spending, I'd say its because theres more competition at the sharp end now and his policy of bringing them in young and developing is being trounced by the superficial models of Man City/Chelsea
Then again I disagree with Mr Tunstead that theres not better managers out there we could realistically get (Poyet and Lambert for starters) I also rate Lee Clark and Nigel Adfkins but they would be more risky then the aforementioned two.
I wouldn't say the reason Wenger is floundering is because hes stopped spending, I'd say its because theres more competition at the sharp end now and his policy of bringing them in young and developing is being trounced by the superficial models of Man City/Chelsea
Andrew Keatley
88 Posted 05/10/2011 at 01:20:39
88 Posted 05/10/2011 at 01:20:39
Then again...
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfer-news/Tottenham-set-to-gazump-Everton-for-Bradford-s-15-year-old-sensation-George-Green-EXCLUSIVE-article808132.html
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfer-news/Tottenham-set-to-gazump-Everton-for-Bradford-s-15-year-old-sensation-George-Green-EXCLUSIVE-article808132.html
Chris Stubbs
89 Posted 05/10/2011 at 03:34:52
89 Posted 05/10/2011 at 03:34:52
Andrew.... I read that report. I thought the deal was done. But this Hawwy's MO. Let Moyes and our scouting team do the grunt work and nip in at the last minute. He has done it before and will do it again.
Victor Chang
90 Posted 05/10/2011 at 09:24:31
90 Posted 05/10/2011 at 09:24:31
Arry proper takes the piss sometimes, Moysie should make it clear for everyone to see that any managerial success Arrys had is success stolen from the dying clutches Everton.
Trevor Mackie
91 Posted 05/10/2011 at 11:18:13
91 Posted 05/10/2011 at 11:18:13
Ian
Glad you agree with me about Moyes.
Arsenal are having a bad season so far and much is made of no trophies for 6 seasons, however they have been ever present in the champions league, been in finals and still regarded as one of the best teams to watch.
Hardly floundering.
Check their spending, their transfer outgoings seemed remarkably low compared to others on a list provided on here last season.
My take on Moyes lasting 10 yrs is he works for an incompetent frightened of any decisive action such as releasing Moyes when he reached his limits some years ago.
Glad you agree with me about Moyes.
Arsenal are having a bad season so far and much is made of no trophies for 6 seasons, however they have been ever present in the champions league, been in finals and still regarded as one of the best teams to watch.
Hardly floundering.
Check their spending, their transfer outgoings seemed remarkably low compared to others on a list provided on here last season.
My take on Moyes lasting 10 yrs is he works for an incompetent frightened of any decisive action such as releasing Moyes when he reached his limits some years ago.
Matt Garen
92 Posted 05/10/2011 at 12:10:19
92 Posted 05/10/2011 at 12:10:19
SSo gso on that basis getting in the champions league,cup finals but no trophies is success. So in the past 6 years moyes has Bernard a success? Bizarre argument.
Matt Garen
93 Posted 05/10/2011 at 12:23:23
93 Posted 05/10/2011 at 12:23:23
Been a success? What are apologists apologising for? Moyes gets the best of what he has. If that means playing people in positions that the toffeeweb experts don't think is their best, then that's his decision. He is the manager and gets it right the vast majority of the time but the football isn't exciting. Moan if you like, which you do, but the league finishing positions mean he is staying as long as he wants. 0.02% of fans want him sacked. that's about the level of their football understanding.
David Chait
94 Posted 05/10/2011 at 13:09:14
94 Posted 05/10/2011 at 13:09:14
Yeah I don't buy that spurs can steal him... theres a pic of the lad with pen in hand and Moyes grinning over his shoulder.. how is that not an agreement.
On the other point.. yeah we have signed a few "wonderboys" before... think all Michael is saying is don't count your chickens... fair enough.. still .. I'm happy we're still taking pot shots.. means my lighty may get his chance in 15 years! :)
On the other point.. yeah we have signed a few "wonderboys" before... think all Michael is saying is don't count your chickens... fair enough.. still .. I'm happy we're still taking pot shots.. means my lighty may get his chance in 15 years! :)
Jonathan Field
95 Posted 05/10/2011 at 14:23:19
95 Posted 05/10/2011 at 14:23:19
David No 87. Where is the pic of George Green with Moyes?
Ted Smeethes
96 Posted 05/10/2011 at 14:36:36
96 Posted 05/10/2011 at 14:36:36
Jonathan - see the link for a picture of George in all his glory:
http://www.alltoolsdirect.co.uk/george-green-240v--kit-a26a-gve370-2-3731-p.asp
http://www.alltoolsdirect.co.uk/george-green-240v--kit-a26a-gve370-2-3731-p.asp
Trevor Mackie
97 Posted 05/10/2011 at 14:49:49
97 Posted 05/10/2011 at 14:49:49
Matt @ 84
To allude our last 6 years is the same as Arsenal's because of the no trophy statistic is nonsense, a perfect illustration of "lies, damned lies and statistics".
You're quite right about him staying as long as he wants to ? what an indictment of this club, meanwhile the 0.02% gets bigger as the crowds get smaller.
To allude our last 6 years is the same as Arsenal's because of the no trophy statistic is nonsense, a perfect illustration of "lies, damned lies and statistics".
You're quite right about him staying as long as he wants to ? what an indictment of this club, meanwhile the 0.02% gets bigger as the crowds get smaller.
Ray Robinson
98 Posted 05/10/2011 at 15:00:36
98 Posted 05/10/2011 at 15:00:36
On the subject of young players not quite making it, I hear that Newcastle are letting Gosling go out on loan. Shall we have him back?
Brendan McLaughlin
99 Posted 05/10/2011 at 15:06:14
99 Posted 05/10/2011 at 15:06:14
Trevor #90
Very gracious of you to acknowledge that its only 0.02%of fans that want Moyes sacked.
Very gracious of you to acknowledge that its only 0.02%of fans that want Moyes sacked.
Damian Kelly
100 Posted 05/10/2011 at 15:33:48
100 Posted 05/10/2011 at 15:33:48
If Green goes to Spurs then Moyes will get to work with him in the summer anyway when he gets the Spurs job after Hawwy takes the England job.
Then we'll get to see the brave new post Moyes world that so many people seem to pray for.
Then we'll get to see the brave new post Moyes world that so many people seem to pray for.
Matt Garen
101 Posted 05/10/2011 at 15:43:14
101 Posted 05/10/2011 at 15:43:14
Trevor, my point is in response to yours (post #83) about Arsenal "hardly floundering" ... but they are, Trevor.
Their model is based on achieving Champions League every season. They will survive if they don't get it but the cost of the Emirates means it's unsustainable long term. Whereas Everton and Moyes consistently overachieve in the Premier League based on money available to them/him. That is not down to playing no strikers v Man City ? it is down to inept, incompetant leadership from the chaiman.
It is him that needs removing; Moyes's ability is a non-arguement. There is no way of knowing what would happen should Moyes be replaced by Martinez, Holloway, Jones, Lambert etc unless it happens. I for one hope that we don't find out anytime soon.
Their model is based on achieving Champions League every season. They will survive if they don't get it but the cost of the Emirates means it's unsustainable long term. Whereas Everton and Moyes consistently overachieve in the Premier League based on money available to them/him. That is not down to playing no strikers v Man City ? it is down to inept, incompetant leadership from the chaiman.
It is him that needs removing; Moyes's ability is a non-arguement. There is no way of knowing what would happen should Moyes be replaced by Martinez, Holloway, Jones, Lambert etc unless it happens. I for one hope that we don't find out anytime soon.
Ian Tunstead
102 Posted 05/10/2011 at 16:12:36
102 Posted 05/10/2011 at 16:12:36
Trevor, I have been told many times on here that Moyes finshing high up the table and reaching finals or semi-finals is not succes, it is only by winning trophies it can be called success, so how can it be a success for Arsenal to only reach finals and not win them or qualify for the CL but not win it?
When ever Everton have had a bad early season much has been made of it as well. But you are right it is still very early, it is where they are in the table at the end of the season that counts and the same goes for Moyes.
I am not citicising Wenger, i am just pointing out that like Moyes, if you dont spend money it is difficult to progress when everyone around you is spending vast amounts.
When ever Everton have had a bad early season much has been made of it as well. But you are right it is still very early, it is where they are in the table at the end of the season that counts and the same goes for Moyes.
I am not citicising Wenger, i am just pointing out that like Moyes, if you dont spend money it is difficult to progress when everyone around you is spending vast amounts.
Kevin Jones
103 Posted 05/10/2011 at 16:47:26
103 Posted 05/10/2011 at 16:47:26
He's signed for Everton. Just been on the Bradfrod site and they've confrimed it. There's a picture of the lad with his Mum & Dad with Dave Moyes looking on.
http://www.bradfordcityfc.co.uk/page/News/0,,10266~2471560,00.html
http://www.bradfordcityfc.co.uk/page/News/0,,10266~2471560,00.html
Jalil Noor
104 Posted 05/10/2011 at 16:47:16
104 Posted 05/10/2011 at 16:47:16
Oh FFS... let's just get Tevez on loan and we'll have a proper striker. Heard he likes the spirit at Everton after hearing BK's interview on BBC and that BK mentioned his name. The fact that we have his long lost brother is a clincher for him to move.
Trevor Mackie
105 Posted 05/10/2011 at 18:10:27
105 Posted 05/10/2011 at 18:10:27
Brenadan 91;- "Very gracious of you to acknowledge that its only 0.02%of fans that want Moyes sacked."
I believe the OP used the number figuratively....as I have.
Matt 93:- "Moyes's ability is a non-arguement." no its not, I argue about it constantly.
Ian 94 :- "Trevor, I have been told many times on here that Moyes finshing high up the table and reaching finals or semi finals is not succes, it is only by winning trophies it can be called success, so how can it be a success for Arsenal to only reach finals and not win them or qualify for the CL but not win it?"
You'd better ask them, my point was Arsenal's trophyless 6 years is as different as chalk and cheese to ours.
As different as me singing "suspicious minds" on the karaoke machine and Elvis packing them out at Vegas singing it.
Thank you very muuuch!
I believe the OP used the number figuratively....as I have.
Matt 93:- "Moyes's ability is a non-arguement." no its not, I argue about it constantly.
Ian 94 :- "Trevor, I have been told many times on here that Moyes finshing high up the table and reaching finals or semi finals is not succes, it is only by winning trophies it can be called success, so how can it be a success for Arsenal to only reach finals and not win them or qualify for the CL but not win it?"
You'd better ask them, my point was Arsenal's trophyless 6 years is as different as chalk and cheese to ours.
As different as me singing "suspicious minds" on the karaoke machine and Elvis packing them out at Vegas singing it.
Thank you very muuuch!
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1 Posted 03/10/2011 at 01:31:52
Kieran Agard
Iain Turner
Lukas Jutkiewicz
John Ruddy
Dan Gosling
Richard Wright
Cody Arnoux
Anton Peterlin
Moses Barnett
George Krenn
Lars Stubhaug
Scott Spencer
Guillame Plessis
Eddy Bosnar
Patrizzio Pascucci
Ibrahim Saeed
And I'd love to add the name of:
Andrew Pettinger
But he was signed by Wally Smith.
On the plus side,
Femi Orenuga, &
Luke Garbutt
are still with us.
And of course let's not forget the one single solitary success in this 10-year scouting program:
Seamus Coleman
So, er, Good luck George!
Methinks, you're gonna need it!