Who makes the preseason schedules? Don't think it's Moyes. I'll criticize the man when he makes poor decisions but I'm not sure he has anything at all to do with the preseason scheduling.

One thing I am quite glad about is having a tough game first up. Last season everyone just expected the 3 pts for turning up in the opener against QPR; the year before it was Blackburn, so hopefully the carrot of beating a top side under the floodlights of Goodison will get the players firing from day one.

As for the pre-season, it's all about fitness, and even if we did play anyone decent, it isn't like the players would be told to treat it like a real game.

Of course Davey draws up the pre-season schedules.

How many times does Kenwright tell us that, in football matters, only one man decides EVERYTHING — and it isn't him!

Agree its about getting match fitness up to scratch Dan, the problem is though, when you are playing crap teams, its ends up being just like a practice match, if you play the good teams, it then becomes more competitive because you want to win that little bit more.

Pat, I could imagine Moyes does have some input into pre - season games.

I think that having the first game against United could be the key to a good start this season and also staying injury free. I believe that if we manage to get Pienaar back we'll start well and continue from there; if we had somebody of the class of Donovan on the right side, we'd be right up there toward the top positions.

I have a feeling that Anichebe will come of age this season and prove to be a key player also that Rodwell and Barkley will fulfil the massive potential they both have. In some areas we have massive strength in depth and in others not so much but I'm ultra positive for this year. We're not going to be top four but I believe we'll be close.

Moyes prepares his team for a marathon; the sides aiming for the 40-point line come out of the blocks like sprinters - and fade badly well before the end.

Only the strongest squads have the quality in depth to go flat-out from the first game to the last and no amount of tweaking to the pre-season schedule is going to change that.

Then it would be interesting to see who the likes of QPR last year, or Blackburn the year before had played in their pre-season games.

But to what extent, Brian? I mean, it's not like me calling up some mates and getting a pickup game together

"Hey guys how about some footy this weekend?"

"Davey, we're all the way out here in China and we're not even good."

"I hear you guys have goat meat in China"

"Actually, it's Yak. It's tastes pretty gross. We really don't even know how old it is."

"Sounds dreadful. I'll call up my mates in Milan or Barcelona and see if they have plans."

We might get better pre-season fixtures that way!

Didn't we have a similar pre-season when we last got into the champions league.

I think the last few bad starts have been partly down to uncertainty about big players leaving. The likes of Arteta and Lescott were huge players and their slow and drawn out departures certainly contributed to uncertain starts.

Definitely something wrong in the prep, it's not just the results it's the sheer lethargy of performance.

Players look run into the ground from the opening day, recovery takes forever given the intensity of the Prem.

Really poor coaching this continues year on year, inept actually.

Do footballers get amnesia in close season? Do they forget how to play football? Why should playing better teams make a pre-season arranged for getting fit make them better players? Proper competitive games gets people up to match fitness not friendlies.

Also remember, the "big" teams have to agree to play us too, we can't just say, "we want AC Milan " this year. It's whoever has a free schedule and wants to play us.

The full list of the teams we played when we finished 4th, Connah's Quay, FK Zeleznik, Southport, Crewe, Vauxhall Motors, Formby, Leigh RMI, Pachuca, Club America, Sheffield Wednesday and Real Sociedad.

Absolute fucken giants, the lot of em!!

I think a tough game or two at the end of pre-season should be enough to have them ready for the opening game of the season. I'm not sure how good AEK are but Malaga are a big-spending up-and-coming Spanish team who should be challenging for Champions League positions this season. I think we should be close enough to ready after that game.

My biggest concern would be mentally especially if we have a big name looking to move around that time similar to the Lescott situation. There may be other reasons such as Moyes looking at the season as a marathon etc but I don't think the opposition we will play will hinder us.

Tony J,

Nail on the head mate, I don't go along with this "we should be playing better teams etc." I do think there is something not right about our pre season prep, but it's not the opposition as Tony has proved above, it's probably more to do with psychology more than anything else now, the first thing the players mention in pre-season is getting off to a good start, likewise with Moyes, so I think the previous seasons are now having an effect until we get this monkey off our back.

Anyway, I thought it was a given that pre-season is to go where the money is and make as much as possible from any old tin pot tournament, that wouldn't do for us though would it? Marketing ourselves on another continent, what the fuck would we have to moan about? Apart from big white cuffs like.....obviously.

New signings may help the malaise of a shitty pre season and slow start.

It must be hard to get yourself up for a new season with the same old faces, most times with less squad players....

Then again, if you can't get yourself up for a Premier League season and about £60k a week, you may as well hang up your boots.

Tony, #252, I've always believed there's something about what you say, especially when normally the players must be wondering what the major sale will be. So to that extent I imagine new players do give something of a lift to the squad. Moyes to his credit seems to foster a strong team spirit, despite occasional stories to the opposite, and I do think he won't tolerate anyone upsetting that.

Signing Kneesmith (love that, whoever came up with it) will no doubt give Jelavic a boost. Consistent goalscorers in the Prem are as rare as hens teeth, and doubly so at Everton, so you do always wonder whether he'd be around for the long haul.

I do agree though with the money comment - if I was on that money, I'd go to work with a bloody great smile on my face, all day every day.

Until you took it for granted Matt given that you are obviously worth at least as much as that, well at least that's what my mother told me... and my agent...

It does not make a difference who we play pre-season — it's all about fitness. I am confident we will start better this year because we have got something that we have not had for years and that is a goal scorer...

As long as we dont sell anyone on the last day of the transfer window and get a couple more in to freshen up the squad, we will be fine. Playing shite teams pre-season does not matter — look who we played the season we finished 4th.

Let's just say our final two games of pre season are against strong opposition, and we get beat easily, players confidence immediately disappears which then takes us into a game against one of the best teams in the league with no confidence,

Whereas on the other hand we play two lesser teams who get demolished five or six nil, confidence starts to pick up, players believe that they are good enough because they are easily beating teams.

The thing you have to remember is that playing a good team doesn't always guarantee a good run out, nobody is ever going to play a friendly with the same intensity as what they would if three points was resting on a game.

Phil, if we played an average team and lost 1-0 then we'd have more of a confidence issue. I think the Malaga game is a good end to the pre-season as I stated but I don't really agree with your point. At least if they lost to a good team they'd know it was a good team and that's what they need to aspire to.

If I remember correctly we played Blackpool the game before Malaga and lost, it's a proven fact winning breeds confidence and if you look at last pre season we played Werder Bremen and Villareal and lost both games 1-0. The question is would you rather lose to a good team because they are a good team, or beat a poor team because we are a good team?

(sorry about the number of teams)

A lot of our players have answered questions about our second half of the season form by saying that the new faces in January are what made everyone play better. They all said it was due to increased competition and just new ideas on the pitch.

Based on that I'm pretty sure it doesn't really matter all that much who we play. What matters is getting new faces in early (Hi Naismith!) and making sure we don't lose our most creative players in August.

I'm afraid once again the blame can be laid squarely at Kenwright's feet in my book...

Who we play pre-season is meaningless. Where do the most popular Clubs go for their pre-season? To whomever will pay them the most, that's where. And if those Clubs schedule a pre-season game against another like Club, it's for the money they both can make, nothing more.

Clubs play other clubs so their players can be afforded opposition besides their own teammates. As someone mentioned above, they schedule whoever's available.

We keep starting slow because of our inability to put the ball in the net. Plain and simple. Damn difficult to accrue points when you can't score; EFC or any club.

We go into this season with a genuine, motivated, healthy predator in his prime. Let's see what happens. We start fast or slow, though, it has nothing to do with who we played pre-season.

Its simple, DO NOT SELL any first team players and get our signings in early.

We will get off to a better start and be making a challenge for a top 4 spot.

I put an article in to TW last year with (match-by-match graphs) proving that visits to the USA or Tahailand or whoever we play pre-season has no different effects to how we start a season! It is meaningless bitching and moaning about it.

How we start the season is down to two factors in my eyes.

Motivation & tactics.

Can anyone really say we are not fit enough, or at least on the same levels as every other P.L club ?

It's no big secret how clubs prepare for the start of the season - all clubs have nutritionists, fitness coaches, pre-prepared fitness programmes etc.

I'm sure pure adrenaline will carry you for the first few games.

Hopefully Jelavic can finish the chances we will make at the start of this season, and hope Moyes does not persist with out of form players, as he has done in the past.

In order to be ready for a new season of PL football it is vital that the matching is up to the same standard, as to the teams you are playing against.

The way other physical sportsmen or groups prepare themselves to perform to their absolute best, as should we do the same at Everton.
It is connected, the amount and quality of matching seperates the good from the bad, it affects things when you are not fully matched.

To think that it does not matter who you play is the same as being okay with only playing lower division sides, we belong in the top division and have to pick our matching with that in mind.

In total there are different factors, but the main point is that we are able to be ready to go head to head with the best.
We are simply not ready to do that if we only play against lower skilled teams most of the pre-season.

In my opinion, Tony J, it is actually your body that forgets how to play, or more precisely your muscles. This is why practise is so important and players don't just rest and maintain fitness between games. Anyone who has had a lay-off from playing sport (but kept their fitness up) will tell you that, even though the basics remain, it takes a while to get your 'touch' back or your 'eye in'. There is a difference between being fit and being match fit which has nothing to do with speed, strength and endurance; it is about reaction times, anticipation and skill under pressure and you can only get it from full-on competitive games.

Pre-season should be about three stages:-

1) Getting back to the required level of fitness. It is unfortunately true that we all lose fitness quicker than we can usually gain it. Players need a break but they have to be careful precisely because they need to be supremely fit to be competitive. During this phase playing is less important and the games can be at a relatively low level because it is all about restoring physical fitness rather than full match sharpness.

2) Gelling the team, integrating the new guys with the old. 'New guys' can be youngsters breaking through, injury returnees and anyone transferred in. Camaraderie and confidence are probably the most important effects being looked for so why not tour if possible. If it is the right choice (ie, not too arduous or unsettlingly unfamiliar) you should get player development, team bonding and hopefully raise the profile of the club and make some money.

3) Gearing up for the first game of the new season. Despite best efforts nothing recreates a truly competitive environment like, well, a truly competitive game, and you don't really get that in training (unless you are letting your own guys knock lumps out of each other which may be a little counter-productive!). A couple of games against top class opposition (in front of a decent crowd) is the closest you can get to the real thing and has to be the finishing touch to pre-season.

Like many, I suspect our poor starts have very little to do with the actual opposition played in the majority of pre-season fixtures, and late player departures / arrivals and a sense of instability / doubt probably have more of an effect than whether we have toured the States or stayed local. I also have pet theories about the type of fitness and the mentality instilled into our squad that may account, in some ways, for seasons being characterised repeatedly by improved performances in the second half of the season, but tend to agree it is a mental thing that causes our slow starts. Whether it is being overly cautious or just not switched on I cannot say, but given a few bad results the confidence drains away quickly and we then seem to have to wait until the other teams start to run out of steam before we really show what we are capable of.

Aiden Doyle # 230Whats the point in only starting to run in a Marathon when other teams have already done 11 good fast miles. You still end up a being a LOSER albeit a LOSER with a relatively fast LAST 11 miles.

The 4th finish was a freak. In most seasons if you had that number of points you'd be looking at 5th/6th at best.

Looking at that season as the holy grail is flawed, as Liverpool had a poor league season, whereas City and Spurs weren't the teams they are now. We have just been squeezed out by clubs with bigger budgets (or MOB – the magical fairytale manager who can spend fresh air and play beautiful attacking football, humbling top sides on their own patch, restoring world peace and ending world hunger).

I've always believed that it's how you finish not how you start. Granted points on the board at the begining help a lot but it's at the tail end where they count.
Now if I where a player at Everton [ I wish ] would I be concerned about all the NEW signings made taking my place or would I think i'm nailed on for a start ?
It will be interesting to see how Moyes deploys Naismith, will it be the Cahill role or wide right in which case will Timmy up his game or will Leon shine ?.
I believe that at the start of the season we will be ready in body but maybe not in mind.

Iain, it is absolutely 100% how you start. If we had played our first ten games like our last ten, Champions League qualification would have looked possible, confidence would have grown and there would have been a real buzz about the club.Instead we were looking to forty points from October. In my view, another bad start should make a new contract for Moyes unthinkable.

Every end of season he is lauded for getting us out of a hole he played a large part in digging.It's like some bizarre Munchausens by proxy thing.

"Will the bad starts to the season stop?" asks the article header. No not until we get rid of Dire Dour Depressing Davey and his band of Scottish misfits.

Peter Barry bagged a book of bigoted D words
A book of bigoted D words Peter bagged
If Peter Barry bagged a book of bigoted D words
Where's the book of bigoted D words Peter bagged?

OK, it's a work in progress, but it's getting there.

Come on, Peter, enough of all this silliness. You seem like an intelligent chap on the whole. You don't like Moyes, well that's fine, we get it. Now move on and leave the catch phrases to Roy Walker.

FFS... pre-season is about getting match fit... MATCH FIT!!! Sometimes pre-season games are organised against lower division teams on purpose because that team started their pre-season training a couple of weeks earlier and therefore will be that slight bit fitter and that is where the test comes from.

There is no (or very little) tactics that go on throughout pre-season games... as you wouldn't make about 10 subs during a Premier League match, would you? Pre-season games are concerned with getting as many as the first team squad MATCH FIT!!!!!

The only other considerations into pre season is the commercial aspect. That's not as significant for EFC compared to, eg, Man Utd (who are by the way doing their pre-season in the USA where we normally go and playing inferior opposition as you all keep mentioning above). But I wonder if Man Utd fans will complain that their pre-season tour last year cost them the leauge??

This really is a fucking ridiculous article. Pre season is about MATCH FITNESS. Nothing to do with raising your game against better teams. Any professional footballer should be able to raise his game when he wants. And under David Moyes, I can't imagine too many players not raising their games being in training sessions. Rant over.

The best way to achieve the highest possible finish is relative consistency across the season. There are usually two types of teams that make flying starts, those with big squads that can keep it up across the season ie Man City/Man Utd or new teams that start off at 100mph and fade badly after Christmas ie Hull, Burnley and Swansea.

So if Everton carry on at an average pace across these season, knowing that somewhere you will have a bad month and somewhere else you will have a great month, European Qualification is well within our grasp.

I really don't hold much credence in pre-season games or the results. It is more a question of getting fit and getting newer/fringe players into the scheme of things with a view to seeing who is ready to make a step up or a claim to a squad place. I say this because, in Major League Baseball, one team finished the best in the pre-season league standings but is currently one of the poorest in the league proper.

Personally, I think playing overseas in tournaments is just an extended vacation for the players and most of the regulars from last season will quite naturally assume they will be the chosen ones next season. Nobody wants to get injured before the season starts and so it is usually the newcomers who are really trying.

I am equally sure that, when they kick-off against Manure, they will all be mentally and physically prepared to do battle. However, matching up against Ferguson and his stronger squad is another thing and the Blues will need to be at the top of their game... and that includes Osman.

Shaun Sparke # 540 Seems you can't differentiate between BIGOTRY and TRUTH Shaun. I'd get a check up on that if I were you.

Peter Barry #654, Let's just imagine you get what seems to be your wish and get rid of Moyes, we bring in a new manager who brings in a new exciting, very technical style of football which most of our current first team can't play, this would almost certainly result in losing many games because our first team can't play the way the manager wants them too. We would either; A) get rid of the new manager due to poor results or B) start too change many of our first team players to fit in with a new managers style of play.

I understand you are annoyed with Moyes's boring style, but to get rid of Moyes would mean either replacing him with a manager just like him or changing the squad to suit a new manager. Moyes has built a team that is suited to him and his style.

Sorry Andrew (549), but I don't quite follow your logic. How does having a large squad (rather than better players which could also be suggested for the teams mentioned) help you to start the season well rather than being mainly a benefit in sustaining that performance into the latter stages of the season?

And what makes those new teams able to start off at 100 mph (even though they end up paying for it later) rather than a club like ours with our seasoned professionals who should have benefited from our much vaunted fitness regime at our world class facilities? You make it sound like a tactical choice or that our highly paid players just cannot summon up the enthusiasm that the new boys have. Either would be shocking if it were true.

Surely the whole point of the thread is that we are plagued by our inability to show the consistency across the season that is required to finish higher up the league, and that is characterised by our poor early-season form. How can we improve it if we don't have a large squad and why would we want to start at 100 mph if we would automatically be doomed to fall away later on?

What we are all hoping is that there is a middle way, a way of starting at our best (which seems to be good enough to win games after Christmas) and gaining enough confidence, momentum and points – to see us through the leaner periods – so that a later season surge would catapult us into European qualification rather that just(!!!!) placing us in contention for the 'best of the rest' category.

Phil (658), you are assuming there are no managers who are broadly similar to DM in their attributes but better where he is perceived to have some weaknesses. Such a person, if they existed, could potentially take over the same group of players but get an improved overall performance.

But Peter, as you are the master of alliteration you will realise that bigotry begins with a "B" whereas truth begins with a "T" . My little rhyme would not have made sense then would it? But for the record the definition of a bigot is: The state of mind of a "bigot", a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices. Doesn't that sound familiar to you?
Your opinions may be valid but you run the risk of nobody taking them serious with this rather childish and persistent attack on the manager.

Si Cooper #661, You seem to have just described Alex Ferguson, and can you see him leaving United for us?

When Moyes first came, we used to start the season like a house on fire. I put the reason why we started last season so poorly was because we had a poor side and morale was low and our manager had lost his hunger.

I think this season, with pressure off, provided we get piennar and keep our better players (a big if) then we will be right up there come Christmas because I think Moyes has got his desire back. Having a top quality striker is the biggest difference.

Phil (Davies #658/#708) I was simply pointing out that you were presenting a closed argument with only two outcomes (which suited your point of view) when there are other possibilities to be considered.

Was I describing SAF (not intentionally) or the next SAF? The point remains valid; it may be possible to find a successor to David Moyes who could actually do better. This is not a rallying call to get rid of him but it is unfair to claim that EFC would automatically be worse off once he does move on. No one actually knows.

I don't think we start the season badly because of our pre-season...

Generally, we have one top player linked with a move away, which affects morale etc. Most obviously Lescott, but we've also suffered similarly with other players.

We havent brought during pre-seasons... this creates a more pessmistic atmopshere, and has obviously morale issues, plus leads to a general erosion of the squad, as a sold player is not properly replaced.

The general level of quality decreases. We can all come up with various ideas etc, but taking the last season as an example...we played poorly until January, because our players were simply not good enough. Our only creative influence was Osman, and we had no goalscorer. It is not surprise that bringing Pienaar, who took on the creative burden, and Jelavic, who scored at an amazing rate, plus the skill and pace of Donovan, lead to a massive improvement. If we had had Pienaar, Jelavic, Donovan at the start of the season, we would have had more points come January.

We must bring in Pienaar, and another couple of good players on loan, at least one of them must be creative. Unfortunately, I don't know if it will be financially possible, and the teams above us are once again outspending, or threatening to outspend, us.

Si Cooper #711, The original message I was commenting on was regarding Moyes's style of football, the two outcomes came from us bringing in a new manager with a new style of play.

I would love too see a version of David Moyes that has all of his strengths and none of his weaknesses but I cannot think of a single Manager in football that is like that, so all I was saying is that replacing Moyes because we don't like his style of football could be a lot worse for Everton than if we keep him.

Peter Barry,

Please couid you do me a favour & precisely indicate who these "Scottish misfits," are, and enlighten us as to why you label them as such?

(If it isn't already apparent, I ask because I'm growing tired of reading such anti-Scottish rhetoric from you; Your liberal use of terms like "Jock," etc..)

ps: I'm also surprised you haven't blamed your favourite hate-figure for the waterlogged pitch in Dundee too..

Pre-season is about fitness. The quality of the opposition is irrelevant. My belief is that Moyes, when starved of funds during the summer, goes into a sulk, resulting in unforgivable quotes like "We aren't in a position to win Premier League matches at the moment."

I believe that we start so badly because our manager's attitude is a disgrace & we only pick up in January because we get a couple of loan signings to lift the gloom. In conclusion, I suspect the Scots would have been routed at Bannockburn had good old Davey led them into battle.

Si @711

We could get somebody better, as you say nobody knows but the chances are overwhelmingly that we'd get somebody worse. The reason is that there are no managers out there with the experience of building fairly good sides and attaining consistently high league position on anywhere near as low as the spending power that Moyes works with. We could find somebody better but it would be by luck not design.

I'm positive about the situation now especially if we get Pienaar back on board. I predict that this year will see a decent start and another good position. I'm predicting 5th or 6th which would be an incredible achievement.

Jim #712 "Unfortunately, I don't know if it will be financially possible, and the teams above us are once again outspending, or threatening to outspend, us."

And all the teams below us as well, as usual!!

I think people are missing the point pre-season freindlies are about getting players ready for the season ahead and also trying to make some money. Tony Hibbert chose to play AEK Athens, the 5th or 6th biggest club in Greece who rarely if ever fill their stadium. Also, the club charge us £15 which is ridiculous considering it was £20 for the Europa league match a few years ago.

If we played Celtic for example we would get at least 3,000 fans travelling down from Scotland. Also many Everton fans are of Irish Catholic descent and Celtic are their 2nd team. Also it would be a great atmosphere; also why the hell have the club put up ticket prices this season? We didn't sell out once last year in the league.

Look at the Everton Chile match for example: we got 26 000 fans through the gates, lots of families and young kids. Loads of people buying stuff in the club shop before hand, every season the club mess up with regards to pre-season friendlies.

We took 1,000 fans to Motherwell today we'd probably take 3000 to Celtic or we'd take large numbers of fans to somewhere abroad. In the summers of 2008 and 2009 we went on trips to America and in 2010 we went to Australia; football isn't popular over in those countries.