Yeah, I don't buy the "it's not important" line. He has a job on his hands this summer. He has to replace Cahill and Yobo (assuming they actually leave) and the other 4 odd he let go, not to mention the fact that we had a very small squad and not to mention we've no cash. Maybe you're right Brian. He might just do what he can this year and then off he goes.

This is easy. Moyes is saving us money. Also we have the option now to not hand him a new contract if he fails to get us back into Europe. I fully support the wait and see deal, otherwise we might end up having a 5 year contract for a manager who only keeps us safe from relegation.

If Moyes does not get us back into Europe this season I want him gone. It is that simple. We will lose Fellaini next season if we are still not playing Europa League. Also we will have to sell Baines to afford staying out of Europe.

We now have a yearly loss of close to £10 million, take away Cahill and we have around £6 million in overdraft. There needs to be a change, either Moyes gets us back into Europe or we are dead in the water, clubs can pick us clean by buying Fellaini or Baines.

Again, this wait and see thing is smart, we save a rise in wages for 1 year by doing this, he is still on his old contract.

Moyes doesn't really need a contract as long as BK is here Moyes has a job for life.

It will be interesting to see if he signs a new contract. A fair few of the team he has built have now moved on or soon will be – Neville & Distin will surely need replacing soon, while less urgently, Hibbert, Osman and Howard. Does he really fancy starting again from scratch with no money?

It really all could come down to whether the board are still here this time next year. If they are (which I fear will be the case judging by everything else they have done this last 13 years), then I couldn't blame Moyes for jacking it in. But if we get new owners who could give him even modest investment and the ability to keep his best players? He might just be up for it...

You'd suspect what James says in #625 is hitting the nail on the head.

Harry Kidnapp was very plain when he was negotiating with Levy. He came right out and said that a manager with only a year left on his deal was useless and toothless as the players could have no confidence that he'd be there the next year!.

This should apply to Moyes every bit as much, but, seemingly no one's very concerned about it!. You have to assume that Moyes has told the squad that the only way he isnt here for the long term is he chooses to bail.

Moyes deserves a crack at getting us to the top table via decent investment. He has proved beyond doubt that he gets decent returns with little to spend, It may be that he is pushing Kenwright, but who knows. Id like to think if he went we would get a manager who would achieve more on the same budget, but this is unlikely, at least based on premier history.

Suggesting he has merely kept us from relegation just ignores the truth.

Can't see Moyes leaving solely because I can't see where he'd go.

Any club with more cash than us wouldn't want him and now the SPL is a one-horse race there isn't even a semblance of a challenge up there for him to go to, either.

Moyes will stay, but he'll probably screw Kenwright for every penny to commit. I'd like to see him (publicly) make it a condition of staying on that Kenwright sell up or get investment.

Beyond those that will not see, Moyes is universally nailed as a survival merchant now, the "top manager in waiting" ship has well and truly sailed.

Spurs the lowest entrant to the top table didn't even give him a sniff and Chelsea picked the ex Baggies boss.

It's karma.

Survival or best of the rest are 2 sides of the same coin - if he played with a bit of enterprise it might be different, might even have won something as it is hedoesn't and he hasn't - where can he go above us? Save some money for Pienaar and offer him a contract at reduced wages.

Shane, replacing Cahill and Yobbo isn't exactly a job on his hands. The longer the new contract is delayed the better. Another bad start should, but won;t, see the back of him. Here are the advantages to Everton:

All goes brilliantly and we qualify for the Champions League. Moyes realises he has the best job in the world and signs a new contract, we won't even ask him to take the 20% pay cut he cretinously advocated.

All goes the same as usual. Moyes realises he has the best job in the world and offers to take the same deal.

We are in the bottom three in October and Kenwright realises he hasn't got the best manager in the world and gets rid of him cheap(yes I know this wouldn't happen, but hey, we might have a new owner}

Finally, we qualify for the Champions league ,Fergie goes and United get him for no compensation. Well. I'll risk that one.

"Moyes is universally named as a survival merchant."

By whom..?

Newsflash:

He's not.

He's consistently pushing for Europe.

Stop peddling a lie.

The man you're looking for who qualifies for that description is Roberto Martinez.

I can’t be bothered to trawl the archives for proof, but I’m pretty sure that Moyes had an equally relaxed attitude the last time that his contract was up for renewal. Whether you want him to stay or cant wait for him to go, I wouldn’t read too much in to the current situation.

Barry’s comments are equally irrelevant - again, that’s regardless of whether you the think that our current manager is the Moyesiah or whether you think he’s an overrated, ultra-conservative liability.

The fact is that Moyes (for better or for worse) is a hands-on control freak who was never going to fit in with Spurs’ drift towards the continental head coach + director of football model of operating the club. He wouldn’t want to work under those strictures; they wouldn’t tolerate his totalitarian approach.

As for the dismissive Chelsea “preferred the ex-Baggies boss” (who took hold of a misfiring clutch of individuals and turned them into a Champion’s League winning team) to Moyes comment... I simply don’t know where to begin.

Aiden

"don't know where to begin"

I wish you hadn't started.

Clearly Moyes and Spurs was a no-go, your limited reasoning could obviously do with some addition but you know that don't ya?

Kevin

I know reality isn't where you live but at least get the quote right, you're so desperate.

Found those lads who've been managing in exactly the same conditions as Moyes yet?

What? not even the 10 yrs blarney?

Fantasist.

I'm convinced that Moyes would of went to Spurs if he was offered the job, he more or less said "come and get me" live on MOTD, I also think he's decided that this season will probably be his last at the club barring some trophy success, he is a loyal man as we all know, and seeing out the term of his contract allows him to walk away with dignity. He will of course, be offered a new contract or, maybe he already has?

Without any irony, you mention 'reality,' when peddling the malicious & incredibly cynical myth that Moyes does nothing more than avoid relegation, Barry 'Sunny Disposition' Rathbone.

And when I repeatedly presented you with the unimpeachable, contrary, facts on the other thread, you label me a fantasist..?

(Guess what..? Facts aren't fantasy... they just are).

You asked for specific (or at least similar) conditions.

Fine, so let's examine comparable net-spend, fan-base, aspiration etc..

How have Aston Villa, Sunderland & Newcastle United fared during the same time frame as Moyes's Everton?

(Answer: Nowhere near as well).

Now, can YOU actually name any club operating on similar means that has out-performed us in the league over the past decade..?

(Answer: No you fucking can't).

As an aside (to no-one in particular), a part of me cannot wait for Moyes to leave Everton just to see how long it will take for the knives to come out for his successor.

(I'm charitably offering odds of eight games in before the whinging resumes.)

“Clearly Moyes and Spurs was a no-go, your limited reasoning could obviously do with some addition but you know that don't ya?”

Errmm.... Sorry, Barry. It’s not clear what your point is there, but I’m pretty sure that your inane rambling isn’t helping you to make it.

The Redknapp quote was nonsense, merely an attempt to extend his contract. Every manager at some point has one year left before he leaves a club. Otherwise he would be at the club in perpetuity.

Jimmy #617, and say Moyes does get us into Europe, where are we going to get the money for the players we need to keep us there?

Paul 831

"Otherwise he would be at the club in perpetuity?."

Not really no. It just means that the right time to have the manager sort out his contract and long-term presence at a club (and therefore his influence and direction) is before he enters his final year on contract. Few managers wind down their contracts to the last day....unless they know their next one is in the bag.

Otherwise the players have no idea whether they are going to be playing for the man for any length of time going forwards or whether someone new will be rocking up with new methods and ideas. Uncertainty undermines a teams setup and composure.... Spurs bottling of the second half of last season with the Redknapp to England saga was clear proof.

Aiden it's clear you don't know.

According to you Moyes and Spurs never happened because Moyes doesn't agree with their line management structure.

We'll ignore his style (lack of) or trophies (lack of) wages (plenty of) and stick with the old line management line issue eh? cos that's all it could be!

You continually miss the point Kev.

How many times must I tell tell you numbers in isolation don't tell the story, according to stats the greatest english player to bestride our glorious game is ...... Phil Neal!!! – he holds the most medals.

Your hissy fit Mk 2 provides an even better illustration.

Because you couldn't get a comparison to make your fallacious Moyes question work (that would be because it's bollocks btw) you make yourself even more ridiculous by binning your facts (fickle lightweight) and jump ship to HMS INTANGIBLE.

I mean even a complete fantasist like you must see "fan-base, aspiration etc" are not facts they are points for debate – please, please tell me you're not that thick.

In summary, you see 8th as " constantly pushing for Europe" whereas I see that as estate agent speak for survival (I bet you call Goodison – 'Bijoux').

I reckon you've covered all the Moyes myth now – is it okay if I just cut and paste rebuttals now? – you're getting a bit samey tbh.

Don't give up though, I'm enjoying this.

Barry,

Seeing you sign off with an eggy (& transparently-contrived) " Don't give up I'm enjoying this," pretense, is faintly ridiculous.

For the record, I've no qualms about admitting that I'm NOT enjoying this debate, for the singular reason that I find your approach charmless and frustratingly bovine.

Here's why: I answer your questions - you blatantly avoid mine.

But since you ARE truly enjoying it, then I assume you've no aversion to being put on the spot for the second time...?

Sound reasonable?

Then, having stated that "Moyes is universally named as a survival merchant," my question was: WHO has ever labelled him thus..?

It's a pretty sweeping assertion, so only fair that you name your source.

(Ie: prove it)

If not...then we can agree it's bollocks. Nobody (except you) said that.

I also asked you to name ANY club, operating on similar means, that has out-performed Everton in the league during Moyes's decade.

(You conspicuously blanked this too).

For the second time, do you have an answer? Can you show us a superior pound-for-pound football club..?

I gave you 3 examples of similarly-resourced (in fact more moneyed) clubs that have been nowhere near Everton over the past decade, just as you asked.

In response, you employed hyperbole by suggesting that I was having a hissy fit, and, despite it being there in black & white, you labelled me a "fantasist."

How..?? It's either demonstrable evidence or imagination..?

Finally, you postulate that I see 8th as pushing for Europe.

I pointed out (on the other thread) that we have only finished 8th once. That we've finished 7th three times, 6th once, 5th twice & 4th.

I consider that 'pushing for Europe.'

So does David Moyes: " A club like Everton need European football. It would be a dream to get back in the Champions League, but if it was the Europa League we'd take it."

(Courtesy of Jim Knightly; 'Moyes like them flexible,' thread.)

You evidently disagree with all of this. You assert that we are merely avoiding relegation.

Would that be akin to the Premier League era 1992-2002?

It's over to you Barry. Either counter my simply-worded points, or continue to try (really hard!) to portray me as a head-case.

(Nb: Shoot-down the message - don't shoot the messenger).

Very much with Kevin Hudson here. If you are going to 'debate' what could be constituted as fact (The finishing position point is undeniable as is the pound for pound comparison) backed up by stats which you seem to take such offense to... (and leave poor Phil Neal alone; it's not his fault), then at least be nice enough to answer the questions posed to you instead of retreading your previous insults.

Yes, got to give this one to Kevin. One can't argue with final placings, although we may not always like the way we get to them, the fact that we only come good towards the end of the season when the pressure is off, etc etc.

I'm not a Moyes Out, nor a Moyes In Right or Wrong for that matter.

Have to disagree with you Steve on that.

A lot of managers get teams to perform when they are running their contracts down, or on short-term contracts.

ERIC - post 834

Eric I left you on a message on the 'ToffeeWebbers' topic

Just found it and replied Tony! Good timing as I just checked in before going to bed.

kev,

As much as I get great joy from your antics you don't read properly - is it the big red nose or floppy wig getting in the way?

I have said repeatedly I have no interest in isolated numbers as a gauge to judge Moyes, the same rules I apply to business and life in general.

Therefore your bizarre insistence on variations of the fallacious Moyes question ie "who in 10yrs ..... with aspirations ....... pet poodles ..... and a unicycle has walked on ..." or whatever closed variant you deem suitable is of no consequence - BECAUSE THEY DON'T TELL THE WHOLE STORY.

Am I clear on this?

Clearly it affects you in a profound and possibly disturbing way, I know it's evil to mention no trophies, to refer to Moyes "style" of football, his surrenders and his hand in glove collusion with the man who apparently is holding him back (someone tell Moyes btw) - Mr Kenwright.

WELL!! I care not a jot, because that's the way it is and all your wailing and gnashing of teeth won't disturb one pixel of this bigger picture.

Now, this reading problem, I told you to check your quote attributed to me - did you? because you repeated it.

You claimed I said Moyes had been "named" .....

The word was "nailed" you "big top" performer a subtle but clear difference which you've missed and gleefully lurched onto the attack like the emotive and quickly slain Capt Nolan at the Charge of the Light Brigade.

Apologise young man or I'll tug your red nose and stand on your 24inch slippers.

It comes down to this you and the similar minded don't see what I and others see, it plays no part in your evaluation. The offshore island outside of all competition is fine by you, that's your look out and I really don't want to upset you.

But Moyes IS a survival merchant when you really look ....... (oops, cue gnashing!)

No kidding, that was one of the most surreal responses I've ever read Barry...

..And (ingeniously,) you've again wriggled out of answering two basic questions re. your earlier statement.

I do stand corrected on the exact term that you employed... indeed you wrote: "Moyes is universally "NAILED,"as a survival merchant," rather than 'named." - Fair enough.

But back to the now thrice-asked, no less relevant question:

Which football authority HAS 'nailed,' him as such? His peers perhaps..? Football writers..? Opposition players..?

Do us a favour and substantiate your claim..

The other one... ( and please allow me to quote you verbatim) was for me to find: "those lads who've been managing in exactly the same conditions (as Moyes).."

( Which is a bit like asking me if I can name two identical countries).

I gave (what I hoped were) THREE comparable examples of (in actual fact) wealthier under-performers, and invited you to find a contrary, AND superior example.

...You still obstinately refuse to confront the rebounded question.

(A bit like Michael Howard's famously reticent interview with Paxman).

I referenced Everton's league positions in 8 of his ten years.(17th & 11th constitute the other two). You now state that you "have no interest in isolated numbers."

"Isolated numbers....??" Over ten seasons..? Four-Hundred and Seventy-Three games in charge..?

Then by what other context can we judge a manager's virtue other than a league record..?

Silverware - definitely. Derby games - sure. His record in that department can not be called successful. Agreed.

But if that's the only context in which you judge the manager with the 4th-highest win-ratio in the club's entire history, then that tells me all I need to know about your mindset.

Can I also presume that you don't therefore watch any league matches, since by implication, 3 points is also just an isolated number..??

(Absolute helmet).

Barry,
I like your writing style and your replies are quite witty {yours too Kev by the way} but I think you're getting spanked a bit here Barry, I can obviously tell that your opinion is about 4 million light years away from Kevs, but that's not good enough mate...explain yourself man or risk removal as your post contributes nothing to the debate ! at least I think that's what happens on here....well it has for me anyway...I think.

Kev you are completely lost, an absolute basket case your closed questions are pointless for the reasons I've explained, but here's my last attempt.

All this began with Ian Bennett when the "10 yr unmatched" trumpet was sounded, here is his version cut and pasted:

"No one over the 10 years has done better with similar limited resources"

Then you: "No manager, operating on similar, or exact conditions, has plucked a team that spent nine of the preceding ten years in the bottom half of the Premier League, only to turn it into a regular top-ten outfit – for such a period."
(the period was the 10 years referenced from your previous para).

This 10yr managers comparison among all the unthinking, boneheaded, excuse laden bollox about Moyes pisses me off most - it compares him to NOBODY, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY!!! and would you believe it? ..... he comes out top!!

WHY? FOR FUCK'S SAKE WHY? WHY MAKE THIS SHIT UP? IT IS CHILDISH NURSERY SCHOOL STUFF.

More importantly, is this "8th hovering" playing like we mostly do under Moyes with the surrenders the lack of hope the propping of Kenwright, is this what you want from Everton? ... really.... is it?

Because although exposed you unashamedly chirp:

"Contrary to what you think, my "nonsense 10-year question," still stands, (nb: I haven't dispensed with it just because I didn't repeat it..). "

Now, in fairness you're not alone in this, as the saying goes "if 50 million believe a fallacy it's still a fallacy" but I don't think you should be allowed out unsupervised. This is fundamental to how you make life judgements it's way beyond football and in all honesty every post you've placed has been the same.

The shifty question changes I hardly read due to their irrelevance but I noticed Moyes has been fucked off in favour of "name me a CLUB!!...... 10 years etc" – perhaps you're not so stupid just ignorant.

I'm done now Kevin, you are obviously entitled to your Moyes devotion; it makes no odds to me.

Barry ~ I did offer his first 5 years and last 5 years as a chance to beat his record. All you offered was redknapp. Id rather stick with moyes and I suspect most would agree (I'll let others do the gags on cash etc).

Still didn't answer the "nailed/named" question Barry... but I always suspected you couldn't.

Well done Kev for so roundly trouncing Barry in that 'debate' I use this word in inverted commas because you tried to debate whilst Barry seemed to be operating in some parallel universe whereby he simply failed to address any of the issues and questions.

I particularly liked his USE OF CAPITALS AS A MEANS TO SHOW HE HAS COMPLETELY LOST THE ARGUEMENT.

I also liked his "8th hovering" despite the fact that we have only finished 8th or below 3 times and above 8th 7 times in Moyes ten seasons. I suppose any position in the league could be considered as hovering round 8th in the sense it will never be more than 12 away. But then I need to be careful as this could be considered 'isolated numbers' couldn't it?

Nice slight of hand Barry to suggest Moyes 'style' and a few select poor performances constitutes 'the bigger picture'.....and there was me thinking us being the only consistent challenger to the money teams may instead be that,

....and the no trophies point is a dead duck, as evidenced by the link between cash and trophies.....you pays yer money you wins yer trophies...the rest of us make up the numbers, shitty though that is.

I actually believe Allardyce's record at Bolton is a good as anything Moyes has achieved with a lot less money ;

Following Allardyce's appointment, and despite being in the bottom half of the table when he took over (they were in ninth position), Bolton reached the 1999–2000 Division One playoffs, losing to Ipswich Town, and had an eventful run to the League Cup and FA Cup semi-finals.

Bolton went one better in 2000–01 by reaching the play-off final where they beat Preston North End 3–0 to achieve promotion to the Premiership after a three-year absence. Allardyce said he planned to walk away from football at the end of his 10-year contract at Bolton Wanderers, when he would have been 56.[17]

Bolton went top of the Premiership after gaining ten points from the first four games of the 2001–02 campaign. However, the Bolton squad was not strong enough to mount a sustained challenge and their safety was not ensured until the penultimate game of the season. They continued to struggle in 2002–03, avoiding relegation by just two points and one place.

After two years in the bottom half of the table, Bolton substantially improved, and established themselves in the Premiership. The 2003–04 season saw Allardyce's side finish eighth and reach the Carling Cup final, losing 2–1 to Middlesbrough.

2004–05 saw Allardyce and Bolton finish sixth to win qualification in the UEFA Cup for the first time in the club's history, equal on points with 2005 UEFA Champions League victors Liverpool. In the early months of 2005–06, Allardyce once again took Bolton into the top half of the Premiership and also steered them into the knockout rounds of the UEFA Cup. Bolton eventually finished eighth that season.

Chris, Barry has not been trounced. This is a debate that has another season to run. Whatever one's views of David Moyes are, I would suggest that a bottom three position in October would make his position indefensible.

It appears to have become, amongst many, an accepted position that David Moyes has achieved over the last ten years more than any other manager could have done. Also, that his integrity is beyond reproach, he is loyal to Everton, he is a principled old school type that we are lucky to have.

I do not accept any of the foregoing. He is, in my view, a hired hand, who is grabbing every penny he can get while skilfully suggesting the opposite. Do we pay him so little that he must moonlight as a Sunday Time columnist or a MotD pundit? The latter two roles do nothing for Everton but they do, however dull they are, raise the profile of David Moyes.

It seems to me that the gratitude we show David Moyes and the tolerance many of us have for Kenwright is a fundamental reason for our acceptance of mediocrity.

Well that was entertaining.

Barry may well be an idiot (albeit probably not in terms he'd accept, as I'm judging this on the factual basis of what he actually said rather than some nebulous perception of his own creation), but nevertheless I applaud him on contributing to a lively debate (albeit in much the same way a fish contributes to a spot of angling).

To be totally fair his approach is no more comical or random than the one the club appear to be taking in their distinctly panto-like approach to pre-season...

We've sold Yobo...in return for some magic beans, or have we? Cue Bellefield coaching team, 'He's behind you!'. Ah right, but Pienaar's about to sign, oh no he isn't, he's playing in a Spurs friendly. Nevermind we're all going to Jakarta - Oh no we're not!...we're actually staying home from the ball and facing legal action from Indonesian promoters and potentially Rangers too whilst our ugly sister heads off on American tour...along with Tim Cahill...probably.

Is pre-season 2012-13 worthy of a Kenwright production? You certainly couldn't make it up!

Andy , a 'hired hand', so true. Moyes is a man who is doing the job expected of him by his boss. His job description, as Barry suggests (I think) is to keep Everton in the league. End of. If he gets a cup run, then its a bonus.

Kevin rightly points out that he achieves his objectives, and if anything, he overperforms on the resources he has available. What is the sticking point, for myself personally, is the failure to produce the goods when it really matters. Semis, Europa, etc.. but I suppose that's what we get when we sell our best players. If we won one, maybe we would go on again?

Not many managers would get this current squad relagated, but a couple, as pointed out, may just get it to win a cup... I hope Moyes wins a cup this season, but the OP is about a contract; I don't think he deserves a pay rise, but a new deal would not be the worst bit of business BK has done.

Wow I've missed these kind of threads, very funny. I must say though, I am with Barry on this one, you can't create an exact scenario that completely fits one person and then ask for someone else who has been in the exact same situation and done better, you simply can't.

What you can say though, is list his achievements and underachievements during that period, comment on his general approach to football and the quality of the end product on show. I personally think he has underachieved with the resources he has had, others disagree, that's life.

One statistic Kevin didn't mention though, which I believe sums up Moyes' failings pretty well for me, is the no away wins at the big 4 EVER, that's over 10 years, 40+ games. Now that is a record you could try and compare any other manager against, what is the next best worst record (if that makes any sense at all) in EPL history for that particular little gem? I'd really like to know.

Keven and Peter, keep going, this is good reading :)

[cough] I do of course mean Finch Farm coaching team.

What a pity, Barry,

Still no answer to my repeated call for clarification about what you wrote.

Instead it's easier for you to you bloviate about my apparent mental state, and raise questions about my "life judgements." (WTF..?)

(Obviously, to manufacture a suspicion about an opponents faculty for critical thought is.... highly-cerebral stuff).

It's an unashamed 'cop-out,' in my opinion.

Remember: All I asked you to do was to back-up your own statements. Nothing more.

You either provide a straight answer, or you don't. You didn't. You moved the goal posts & muddied the waters.

Then said that the questions were now "irrelevant."

(Even though earlier in the piece you beseeched me with one exact same query).

At least I know what it's like to be trapped in Limbo with Iraq's Minister of Information, 'Comical Ali.'

Never mind, others have made a stab at making comparisons for you, I won't bother asking for a forth time (!)

Kevin Tully provides an eminently reasonable example. Bolton made some excellent progress, (and from memory, Middlesborough had some good years too) and that's absolutely worthy of debate. In defence of us, though, I believe we've had MORE consistency over a longer period, and I'd rather be us than them right now.

In responding to Robbie's example, I would counter by reminding him about our recent record against Spurs, Chelsea & Man.City, but again, worthy of discussion. Certainly, a win at Dante's Inferno across the park is a must...Kev Campbell's 7th minute winner there seems a lifetime ago now.

Barry,we all know there are only two managers who've spent a decade (or more) at their respective club, and we know Moyes doesn't hold a candle either of them, but in the interests of balancing all the available data it is fair to also judge him against the rest of his peers too.

If looking at the fortunes of other clubs is "ignorant," as you say, (and for the record, how on earth can an analysis be labelled ignorant..??) then I ask you this:

What therefore, is the point of a 38-game competition?

Kevin

Thats not really a counter argument against Robbie.

He pointed out not one win away from home in 40 odd games against the big four.

Regardless and irrespective of our form v Spurs Chelsea and Man City that record remains.

Some of you seem to be missing Kev's point here. If you look back he is constantly referring to similar clubs that have performed better than Evertonover Moyes tenure. Not Managers. So ignoring the super rich, ie Manu, ManC, Arse, Chelski, and the RS. how many clubs have finished above Everton more times than Everton have finished above them.

If, as I think Barry says, the position you finish in doesn't matter as much as performances, would you prefer to watch Everton play fancy attacking football and get relegated ot cautious controlled football and finish above 8th 70% of the time. I'm not saying that we would get relegated but before Moyes I went into every single season worried that we would.

As to no manager would get this squad relegated but some could do better, the question that you are missing is how many mangers would have been able to build this squad on the funds that Moyes has had. How many managers would have taken the chance on Lescott that he took, or Cahill, or Arteta, or Baines. I know some of his risks failed but if you stamp on flaming paper bags some will contain shit. Moyes risked the shit and found that some contained diamonds.

If it wasn't for what David Moyes has done for this club over the last ten years nobody would be complaining that we haven't won trophies, instead we would probably be hoping to make it to premiership safety before the end of April,

Re the contract, for me its pretty simple. He's been here 10 years. He knows the score with BK and knows the finances are not going to miraculously improve anytime soon.

From a pure Everton perspective (leaving aside the salary as well as the fact he will not get a job with another club bigger/better than Everton), what does he have to gain by signing another contract? He's going to have to start from the beginning to build another squad, with the likes of Arteta, Cahill, Distin, Neville, Osman, Hibbert all gone or going soon, due to age, and he won't have much money to do so. At the same time the financial pressures will continue to keep the probability high that gems like Baines, Fellaini, Jelavic, Heitinga, Barkley etc will be sold at anytime in order to keep the banks at bay. I don't see what professional upside he has by signing another contract. As much as he wants to, unless he changes his mindset, he's not going to win a trophy either, as he tends to bottle the big games (as history has already shown).

On the OTHER hand,

A) he knows that no other richer/bigger/better club is going to offer him a job, with recent history showing that the Man City, Chelsea, RS, Spurs, Villa vacancies all ignored him, as did Newcastle, QPR, Swansea and Fulham! Even the Sunderland post is not going to be available anytime soon. So in the premiership, there really is no where else for him to go.

B) He will (continue to) get paid a fortune if he stays and there is no challenge anymore in going up north and taking the Celtic job with Rangers out of the top flight for at least 3 years.

C) He has a chairman that's going to let him do what he wants (with the little cash that is available).

Call me a cynic, but looking at the above, unless he plans on semi retirement, being a pundit and/or playing golf, I just don't see him leaving Everton. BK will 100% want him to stay so its up to Moyes to decide when he wants to leave. Hence the reason he's 'relaxed' about the situation.....he's holding all the cards at the moment and there's no rush from his side to sort anything out, certainly not before the season begins anyway.

Also, whoever said that its silly having managers on only one year contracts, it actually happens quite a lot. Was also a request by a certain manager called Guadiola, so as to keep him fresh and motivated - didn't seem to turn out bad for him!

I just hope that if (when) BK does offer him a new contract, he factors in how skint we are as well as the global economic crisis and HALVES his current contract! Moyes has already earned over 14 MILLION POUNDS from Everton alone, in just the last 4 years!

Denis

Very well put, that was my point to Steve earlier on.
You could not call Guardiola toothless.

Paul Andrews, (067)

Asked & answered: Robbie & I went around the block a couple of times on that particular point of discussion (at least) twice last season.

Kevin, thanks I wasnt aware of that.

As a matter of interest... What was your conclusion re the 40 plus away matches without one victory?

...That for me it ain't necessarily the 'be-all & end-all,' of a given season.

However, as illogical as it sounds, our record against Aston Villa actually bothers me a little!

Robbie Shields 037...' Moyeses achievements and under-achievements' ( yet the team according to most, Over-achieves, now there's a conundrum

Like Ken says...the view from my seat is; Kenwright's and Moyeses ' good' points have got us some of the way where we are ( nods to the departed family silver ) and their 'bad' points stop us from going further.

IMO, Kenwright's defining fuck ups are Kings Dock and DK. Moyeses are the 40 game big 4 stat and the Derby he threw. This is a symptom of his tendency and default philosophy of KITAP1 ( too often without pinching the 1 )

Too many poor starts, results, more importantly poor performances and what ( IMO ) does Moyes do? he seems to go even more cautious. Thats when I re-up into the MOB.

This is opinion, based on Observation, no stats, no ' Incontroversial ( or not ) Facts'

If we want a ' nailed on ' 4th I don't think Moyes is the man to do it, as some variation on the KITAP1 ( with the odd half dozen good games with the KIPTAP1 handbrake off ) is not a viable 38 game tactic.

Wether anyone else is ( under the Kenwright regime ) capable of doing it ( or not ) is not the point, we don't have anyone else we have Moyes and all he is good for is exactly filling his job discription...Keeping us in the Prem and 10th as the break even point.

Cheers Kevin

I agree it is not the be-all and end-all. It is however indicative of our approach and tactics to away games at these clubs.