Season 2012-13
Opinion
Talking Points
The madness has to stop
In the real world, people lose their jobs, face yearly pay freezes and see their benefits cut. In the world that is the Premier League, austerity doesn't exist.
In another thread, I argued that there was envy at working class footballers earning such vast amounts. Roman Sidey's response made me think. He made the point that, in other industries, people who generate money make big money. In football, this is not the case. One can earn huge money for very little.
I don't know if or when the Premier League bubble will burst but the recent accounts suggest to me that, for Everton, this is coming soon. We are selling to survive and the board are overseeing a slowly sinking ship.
Tony Marsh made the point that he felt this season was our last chance for Champions League football. I believe he is right. Qualification for the group stages will at least buy time. Anything less must surely lead to calling time on the madness. The wage bill will have to be slashed and ticket prices will have to rise. In other words, supporters will have to pay more for less. For the foreseeable future, 40 points will become the height of our ambition.
I see no billionaire on the horizon nor any willingness to sell. What I hope for is transparency and a plan. Is that too much to ask?
Andy Crooks, Posted 06/01/2013 at 10:33:14
Reader Comments
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794 Posted 06/01/2013 at 15:31:25
I think a lot depends on what happens with the new TV deal and the nonsense that is the "fair play" financing plan.
Clubs need to agree a firm policy that enough is enough with players and agents getting money for old rope and have a more sensible wage and agents fee practice that is universally applied.
Whether that can ever happen given the dishonesty and creative accounting that goes on in football is open to debate.
795 Posted 06/01/2013 at 15:37:13
Personally I don't have anything against the players earning those amounts, no one in their right mind is going to ask for a pay cut! The problem lies with the clubs allowing the wages to be so high. Until all the clubs come together to do something about it (fat chance of that in the near term), there will be no change.
Everton are not going to go bust anytime soon, the higher TV money and values of Fellaini, Baines, Jelavic etc are more than enough to prevent near term melt down. However, I really hope that the increased TV money next year does not simply end up in the pockets of the players and manager and is actually used to pay down the debt to at least reduce the annual interest cost. Would also be an idea to buy back Finch Farm and stop the annual £1.7M payment in rent, or whatever the amount is.
806 Posted 06/01/2013 at 16:12:56
Now, on a quiet weekend, Andy invites us to fret over the future for the millionth time.
Personally, I'm just looking forward to the match.
810 Posted 06/01/2013 at 16:27:45
With you even more after seeing comments like "Personally I don't have anything against the players earning those amounts.." and "The 'Premier League bubble' is something fans of hard done by clubs have created,.."
820 Posted 06/01/2013 at 16:49:30
Don't quote me the "it's a short career" shim sham ... if at 30 they hang up their boots having been lucky to have been paid to do their hobby for 15 or so years, then they can do like the rest of us and retrain and get a proper job.
I seem to be a minority amongst football fans who do not support the cash-run procession that used to be football. In the end, society gets the shambles it wants, and if a few extra goals are more important than a nations health or education.....
827 Posted 06/01/2013 at 17:04:45
Don't be silly!
832 Posted 06/01/2013 at 17:12:05
837 Posted 06/01/2013 at 17:40:40
There are Championship, maybe even League One players being paid huge amounts by clubs that can't afford it. Whatever one's views on the morality of it, and I have reservations about criticising working class lads for doing well, it is unsustainable madness.
847 Posted 06/01/2013 at 18:11:34
With the EPL it’s a slow car crash, because no matter how much money is pumped in indebtedness grows, and that’s across the board. Expenditure outstripping income will bring all businesses down (and countries these days) and people who think that football is immune are delusional.
To my mind it is what’s going to happen in Spain that will be interesting; how long can Real& Barca keep partying like its 1999, when the banks are in freefall and Spain’s economy is disappearing down the tubes. Interesting times.
857 Posted 06/01/2013 at 18:45:17
As long as we pay Sky our monthly subscriptions, nothing will change.
The bubble is also about to expand even more, when pay-per-view becomes a reality.
The American & Chinese markets have not even been cracked yet, so don't hold your breath for a crash - it ain't happening.
883 Posted 06/01/2013 at 20:18:29
If all of us fans stood together and boycotted games until we had our say then maybe we could get some things changed for the better. However, while we continue to turn up for games and pay our Sky Subscriptions, things will never change.
897 Posted 06/01/2013 at 21:37:31
907 Posted 06/01/2013 at 21:40:37
I rather pleased, said Everton could well join the Corporate Entertainment club shortly. His response was that Everton would never ever be considered in the same light as the group above and Everton will never ever have the resources to "stay successful" - he meant that in the likelyhood of getting CL next year the demand on our minimal playing resources to play CL and PL weekly would mean we would fail in the early rounds/league of the CL and we would also fail in the 2013/14 season to retain a CL place. You need substanial capital at the outset to ensure you can compete in all comps and his words were that Everton will never be able to do that, either through increased revenues from somewhere magically, or by attracting an investor (who will need hundred of millions to put an infrastructure in place)
Rather spoilt my New Years Eve but I alawys felt that we've missed the boat - and these latest accounts seem to confirm that.
913 Posted 06/01/2013 at 22:11:53
As for the bubble, it will burst soon enough. There will be more and more PL clubs go into administration before other clubs start to realise they're not too big to go under.
Can't blame the players for taking whats on offer, but the clubs(including ours) need to be a bit more willing to cut their cloth to suit their budget, not get £50m in debt in a mad push to annually finish 7th. I'd rather have no debt and finish 16th or 17th.
920 Posted 06/01/2013 at 22:23:55
An increase in domestic demand isn't driving increased TV money - it's the overseas take up. So is China still untapped? What happens when it's tapped?
Same as every other industry. People borrow during periods of growth on the basis that future returns will cover their debt. Then there's a bust. Bust always follows boom.
When that happens it isn't going to be pretty. Player wages cannot be supported, values will be a fraction of current levels.
It will happen despite the protestations above. Football hasn't regulated itself - boom followed by bust.
922 Posted 06/01/2013 at 22:38:32
Football is ceasing to be a competition.
Does anybody remember when the Champions League was first muted, the abhorrent plan was that it would only involve the same top (elite) clubs every year, without qualification? That wasn't popular, for obvious reasons. But look what we have now.
I'm sad to say, that football has been stolen from us and is just a huge money machine for the establishment.
926 Posted 06/01/2013 at 23:24:23
Chris, the massive irony in you words (#922) was that, at the time, Everton were uniquely positioned, being one of the top five English clubs instrumental in setting up the Premier League.
That they not only failed to profit from it but fell away precipitously has to be one of the biggest indictments of the Everton Board.
And the one common factor from that era to this: William Kenwright, MBE, Board member since 1989.
943 Posted 07/01/2013 at 01:35:34
People moaning about players being greedy are conveniently forgetting that its the clubs that offer them this money in the first place. If the clubs collectively offered less money, the players wouldn't have no choice but to accept less. Unfortunately every club is going to look after themselves and so the richer ones will keep offering ridiculous amounts, leaving the not so rich ones having to mortgage themselves to the hilt to keep up.
948 Posted 07/01/2013 at 02:19:32
It's not always boom or bust but this, right now, has every characteristic of a boom. It might be a long boom but it will bust.
949 Posted 07/01/2013 at 03:15:53
You say the bust is coming. If I thought you knew, I'd ask when? But I think you're now blowing smoke.
950 Posted 07/01/2013 at 02:31:17
Life has taught me to appreciate each day as it comes. Eventually a sticky situation will arise and, when it does, I will deal with it. Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy every single second of this wonderful Premier League season.
The last words of Mark Twain. "I have had many worries... None of them ever happened."
955 Posted 07/01/2013 at 04:42:21
956 Posted 07/01/2013 at 04:17:20
I too am enjoying much of our footy this season, and I know who is responsible for it, and perhaps more importantly who isn't. If by the end of the season David Moyes decides he's had enough of performing miracles on a shoestring, and moves on to pastures new where he might not have to continually sell prized assets, or live off loan-deals. Then perhaps a few more will see who has been the real driving force for all that is good about our club at present.
How much greater would our season be if we had been viewing it from the Kings Dock stadium with regular 50k+ attendances roaring us on, and our future assured in one of the finest stadia in Europe? How much more harmonious would the fanbase be if we hadn't had the DK debacle? Not to mention the shameful wasting of valuable time and club resources on a complete non-starter of a project?
So yes, we can all revel in some great footy, and the panto across the park even...... but we should never lose grip of reality nor forget the missed opportunities that might have seen us fighting for greater than top 4 status. Waiting for DM to bid farewell will be too late! I'm also not sure they were Mark Twains last word's btw.
959 Posted 07/01/2013 at 05:15:16
Your KD fantasy will bring a lump to the throat of Evertonians everywhere. Could it really have happened?
Despite the perpetual struggle would Mr Moyes want to give up such a well paid safe position? Personally I hope he stays but, at the same time, I do realise that his high ambitions may one day take him elsewhere.
As for Mr Kenwright, before joining ToffeeWeb, I thought he was a saint... but now I'm not too sure. The sorry state of our once magnificent stadium is really quite shameful.
963 Posted 07/01/2013 at 07:38:42
969 Posted 07/01/2013 at 09:47:38
Premier League clubs lose an obscene amount of money and have ever increasing debt. You don't think that's a classic boom mentality? Borrow more because the TV money ALWAYS increases?
At some point the TV money won't increase. What will drive that is up for debate. Personally I think it's when the growth in the Chinese TV market slows as it approaches saturation.
985 Posted 07/01/2013 at 10:56:29
We, as fans, need to change the expectation we have of players in our clubs. We wouldn't want a cheat like Suarez at Everton, at any cost, surely. I'm proud of what our players do for the community, but still think it does not justify what they get - even at our impoverished club.
Jose Etxeberria, 31 at the time in 2008, signed a one-year contract extension with Athletic Bilbao which saw him play the final season of his career for nothing. Why don't we see that more often? After all, a modern seasoned pro, is set up for several lifetimes - so why not play for nowt in the less effective years?
986 Posted 07/01/2013 at 11:10:13
Greed has ruined most things on this planet, it won't stop as long as there's money to be made.
987 Posted 07/01/2013 at 11:11:42
The bubble won't burst because Sky or Virgin are in most households with tellys in them. Not just for Sky Sports but for normal telly , internet and phones.
The money will never go out of the game and the successful clubs who avoid administration will keep going and going.
There will always be a demand for footy, the only way they will lose lots of customers is if they go back to the pay per view way they used to. The fella who brought up that idea probably got kicked out of his office after the first season.
988 Posted 07/01/2013 at 11:14:06
'It's coming' (Tolman, R Blue Future, (2013) Kenwrick Publishing)
989 Posted 07/01/2013 at 11:30:56
990 Posted 07/01/2013 at 11:30:45
The Premier League has just signed it's biggest ever TV deal.
Modern football is recession-proof.
993 Posted 07/01/2013 at 11:30:58
I have to agree with Michael that Everton were very well placed at the start of the Premier League era. Successive boards did not make the most of it. If you look at Man Utd, yes, onfield success has helped and they were in a good position before the Premier League ever started in terms of branding. But, the club has been absolutely phenomenal in developing it's brand world wide and being aggressive in how it develops it's merchandising stream. And this is with the Glazers saddling the club with the debt that they did.
If you look at Arsenal, yes, they were propelled forward by on-field success under George Graham, and then under Wenger, but also had the right board in place to keep making progress. Right now, they are well on their way to paying for the new stadium through huge gate receipts and the sale of apartments developed in tandum with the new stadium. You can argue separately about Wenger not spending money on players but if any club was in a position to survive a bust in English football, it's Arsenal.
999 Posted 07/01/2013 at 12:26:16
I wouldn't wish that kind of advertising on any club.
008 Posted 07/01/2013 at 12:47:26
As for tapping China, it's already been done, but as they only have state broadcasters there is no competition to drive prices up. China pay less for PL rights than any other market.
044 Posted 07/01/2013 at 14:58:01
There's always a way for the vultures to make money!
131 Posted 07/01/2013 at 21:18:15
We're in the biggest recession for over two maybe three decades, peoples income is going down in real terms rather than up, taxes are high and getting higher, unemployment at its highest levels since god knows when.
Have Sky lost subscribers hand over fist? err no.......have Sky raised their subscription prices as they do every year? yes they have.
If the bust was coming it would have been now I reckon, it hasn't, and it probably won't for a long long time, that's not to say though that some clubs will fall by the wayside, they will have 20 other clubs queing up to take their place at the trough.
136 Posted 07/01/2013 at 20:36:23
139 Posted 07/01/2013 at 21:56:49
Tickets on a game by game basis around the £33 to £35 mark this season with full season tickets for under elevens going for £95.
160 Posted 07/01/2013 at 22:04:00
It's laudable from the fans of the future perspective, but the reality is we would struggle to sell out at full price for all tickets.
We do sell a lot of consignment tickets - I actually was fortunate enough to be able to go to our game at home to Southampton, and was able to take advantage of a spare consignment ticket - face value was a discount of around 35%. Now consignment tickets are a good deal in the sense there's no "sale or return" and they're not supposed to enter the resale market. I have no idea what proportion of our tickets are sold on consignment, but I would imagine that any company can apply, and any affiliated supporter group probably can as well.
I also get all the emails / text messages many of you will get, and they often offer discounts on buying for 2-3 games. All good, attractive deals. The problem I can see is if a season ticket holder sits down and thinks about it, if he/she is going to miss 1-2 games a year for whatever reason, and they're willing to trade off the regular seat, then it may make financial sense to forgo the ST and pay as you go.
Obviously if there's a group of you who all sit together there's an attraction there (but you could probably get around it by buying all the seats on a consignment basis...)
I have no doubt the club have worked and re-worked their pricing strategies to trade off between pricing and demand. I also have no doubt that the stadium, it's set up and operation etc. means it's more of a challenge. As pioneering as Goodison was in its various days, the game has moved on and Everton needs to change - something I've also no doubt the board are aware of, but are struggling to make happen in a way that benefits them.
162 Posted 07/01/2013 at 22:11:07
I did visit Anfield once. Just after the war when Stoke were the opposition and I wanted to see Stanley Matthews. Unfortunately the left back gave him a good kicking and my hero was carried off. Never been near the place since.
183 Posted 07/01/2013 at 22:48:32
I was quoting St End prices, which is where I usually sit. I'm not really sure on how consignment ticketing works at the club so I can't comment on that aspect of it. You can now sell your season ticket seat for games you can't get to through StubHub, so having a ST could still save you a few bob rather than going on a game by game basis.
I personally don't think it's expensive to watch us play, but I only have to pay for myself these days; if I was taking a couple of kids with me, I think I would really struggle to do it on a regular basis.
As has been stated many times, Goodison's best days are behind it, but I really love the stadium, even now, with it's crappy (excuse the pun) toilets and food and drink outlets that have hardly changed since the seventies. There is still not a Premier League ground that compares to a night game at Goodison Park: you can actually feel the place moving under your feet when the ball hits the back of the net.
225 Posted 08/01/2013 at 02:33:46
I think it's a good strategy to sell your ST seat if you can't make the game, but at the other end of it, that is probably taking £35 off the club, should the club install a system where you register your attendance before game day so the club can then resell your seat. Seems miserly, but it's these little bits and bobs that could go towards better facilities.
At the end of the day, the fans have to come first, but there'll be significantly less fans to consider if Everton are playing in the Champo. So, do the fans keeps pushing for value, or sacrifice an extra few pounds to help ensure the future of the club? Tough ask when the powers that apparently can afford to help out more don't, and probably don't pay a penny to watch the Toffees whenever they choose to do so.
Conundrum.
245 Posted 08/01/2013 at 07:55:57
304 Posted 08/01/2013 at 13:30:19
The club depends on the STs for advance money up front - that's the supposed benefit of getting a reduced sum than if all tickets were bought individually. I don't think the club should be making STs any less attractive than they already are, for adults.
313 Posted 08/01/2013 at 14:16:04
I don't know how you've come to that conclusion, you asked for the ticket prices and I gave you them. I haven't made any comments about fucking the kids off, in fact, I think it's a brilliant idea.
400 Posted 08/01/2013 at 19:45:07
Steve, I read between the lines and figured out that you obviously want less kids at Goodison...
463 Posted 09/01/2013 at 00:22:57
Especially about the war and standing in front of bombs.
I also want to know if he ever saw Dixie? By his age I doubt it but you never know...
466 Posted 09/01/2013 at 00:33:37
My grandad was a soldier and a season ticket holder; I just wish I'd asked him more about seeing William Ralph...
516 Posted 09/01/2013 at 08:01:23
The Nuclear Tests were at The Monte Bello Isles and Maralinga and because we were without protective clothing there are not many of us left.
Incidentally, while stationed in Perth, I played for a team called Caledonians which may now be extinct. This led to a call-up for a match billed as England versus Australia which we won 4 - 1 in front of a packed stadium. A great honour and a game made easy by all the ex-pros in the team who seemed to be everywhere.
The army stuff I can't talk about. I was attached to a highly classified unit and will always be bound by The Official Secrets Act.
For the last thirty years I have been a full time professional Racing Artist. Horses, ladies with big hats etc... My work has hung in the Royal Academy, Newmarket Racing Museum and many galleries both here and abroad. So you see lads. I have been lucky... and no. I do not have a website. Would not know how to do one.
These days I'm not so prolific but would like to give you the odd free print or two if a way could be found to do so. Toffeeweb would have to sort it.
Editorial Team
622 Posted 09/01/2013 at 17:10:54
The Life and Works of Harold Matthews — raconteur, secret agent, failed footballer, and artiste extraordinaire to the racing fraternity.
High quality digital lithographic reproductions direct to your iPhone.
[Thinks: Maybe we could charge and make some money here...]
665 Posted 09/01/2013 at 21:12:04
Behave. I've not read one comment on here that says this is a classic tax dodge. Or, to put it another way "Creative accountancy". How do you think Abramovich does it for Chelski? Have all you people been to the Tony Blair school of finance and ethics? I love it, it's so funny.
Andy Crooks has defo got a point. In as much as the bubble at some point will burst, but I'll tell you what, for all you younger Evertonians (God bless you) check out and keep an eye on the cut and paste of crowds, at least for the foreign viewers.
673 Posted 09/01/2013 at 22:06:20
Good for you. You and your like put the Great into Great Britain. A very eventful life by the looks of it.
688 Posted 09/01/2013 at 23:51:06
Just been doing a bit of research on the Caledonians {founded in 1913} now called Bassendean Caledonians and still going strong it seems, during your time there, if it's the same club they would of been playing at Mann Oval in Mosman Park, a western suburb of Perth. You may also be interested to know that a book was written about the club by John Williamson called, Soccer ANZACS the story of the Caledonian Soccer Club. Don't know if it's still in print but you would probably find a copy on e-bay.
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792 Posted 06/01/2013 at 15:18:52