Dave, it is said very often that Moyes sees these young players on the training ground and if they were good enough they would get in. I dispute that view as it somehow suggests that Moyes doesn't get it wrong.

The recent Drenthe comments demonstrate that Moyes is very much a closed book. In many ways that is to his credit but instead of the usual press conference platitudes he really could do himself a lot of good with some simple explanations. Many think he got it badly wrong against Norwich so why not come out and explain his reasons for what he did... What's to lose by it?

Of course very little has changed, fast forward 5 years and there is still little investment given to Moyes to build a team. Fast-forward and the league has got even harder now that Man City have come on the scene. Nothing will change in another 5 years either unless something drastic is done about cheats like Man City and Chelsea.

Moyes will play the youth when they are ready or if we have nothing to play for and not as much riding on each game.

In my opinion, Moyes is paying far too much respect for this new Under-21 league that's been set up. Players like Duffy, Barkley and Vellios would either be out on a season loan or getting some first team experience at any other Premier League team. Yet here at Everton we spend roughly £3m on a right back to play in the Under-21 league.

Surely Moyes knew Stones wasn't likely to get a game and we should have done what Stoke did with Butland and sent him straight back to Barnsley on loan. That is the only reason I can come up with as to why these young players that have so much potential aren't getting a first team game whether at Everton or somewhere else on loan.

Andy, to answer your question, I would imagine Moyes doesn't think he did anything wrong and the players let themselves down by not playing well enough — and the referee not giving us the decisions.

Five years ago, we were finishing at the business end of the Premier League... Fast-forward 5 years and we're still finishing at the business end of the Premier League... What's not to like?

Dave, Vellios has been given several chances and has failed to impress. That's maybe why he doesn't play?

Yeah of course you're right Brendan, David Moyes is just a victim of his own success. The only difference this season is that we had a good start and squandered it. Now we find ourselves with only 5 more points than we had after 27 games last season.

Patrick #011
Is that not the point I was making?

Brendan, it might well be the point that you are making but I think there is a lot not to like. There will never be a better opportunity for Everton FC to make the CL than they have been given this season.

As fans, you seem to be saying that we should be truly grateful for what we receive because we are 'over-achieving'. I personally don't buy that, but fair enough if that's what you think. But how often has the David Moyes era got you really excited and on the edge of your seat in anticipation?

Moyes has done well, but we are unable to compete because not enough top players will come to Everton. Irrespective of Moyes's strengths and weaknesses, it just boils down to this simple fact.

We have a decent squad which performed really well earlier in the season. Oddly we started to look a bit more like our old selves today but we gave it up again. So frustrating.

Fifth or sixth will petty much reflect where we are in terms of squad strength. No one likes perpetual second-tier finishes, but every other team is trying to break the glass ceiling created by money clubs. Moyes has shown himself to do more with his resources than most. The whole haves and have-nots thing is becoming tedious and is making our game very predictable.

Brendan, 5 years ago we were playing in Europe, fast forward 5 years, and now we're not. What's to like?

Phil, five years ago Man City were shite, now they have unlimited funds, and so there's another fat wallet that we're supposed to climb over every season. A few years before that Chelsea did the same thing.

If there's one thing Moyes can't credibly be criticised for its his league returns.

Phil #018
Have to agree... we've fallen so far behind in the money game... but that ain't the Moyesiah's fault!

5 years ago we were giving away soft games like this. 5 years forward we're still giving away games like this.

What's another year? I'll tell you what it is.

It's another year closer to when they nail me (and many of my ilk) in our box and bury us without a trophy.

IAY when my kids (and many others) who were all brought up Blues are getting can't be arsed and are Evertonians like you put Catholic or Cof E on forms... in name only.

IAY where the Board have not invested one brass wazoo.

IAY where 9 times out of 10 the football is shite and the result is worse.

IAY where we are falling further and further behind.

IAY where we are just Leeds in slow motion.

IAY where it needs to change but won't.

IAY where too many people still can't see it.

Patrick #016

At the start of the season, I thought we'd do well to finish 6/7th...

we started the season wonderfully; I thought we'd do well to finish 6/7th...

We were playing well but bad luck, bad decisions, bad finishing... I thought we'd do well to finish 6/7th...

Our early season form petered out and injuries and a small squad started to tell...I thought we'd do well to finish etc etc etc.

Every time we win Patrick, every time we come from a goal down to draw/win Patrick... you any different?

Derek, I feel your pain! The Leeds in slow motion thing sticks in the mind.

What's to be done, what's to be done.

Brendan,

That's the sensible feet-on-the-ground stuff that I was alluding to in my post, only in reverse - i.e. some seem to have become delusional about the prospect of achieving 4th (3rd even!) place. Excessive expectation is a breeding ground for excessive disappointment. It's one thing to passionately want and dream; it's another to actually expect (both as prediction and in terms of some god-given right).

No Brendan I also like it when we win or come from behind to get a draw, but we have a lack of style and mental attitude that has hung around the place like a bad smell for more than the odd game. Losing is not the problem because sometimes when we win, although I'm grateful it doesn't always satisfy the way it should do. It's also noticeable since mid to late November that teams allow us possession because we are incapable for the most part of making good use of it. I wish I knew what the simple answers are and I honestly don't think it's all down to our lack of money.

Take the Derby game for instance after a terrible start we managed to eek our way back into the game but instead of going on to win the game we almost lost it and would have done if the official hadn't made the wrong call.

The game is won and lost in the MF always was always will be.

But it is won and lost as a result of what IS done there and what ISN'T done there...That's why teams are happy to let us play it around, because where it matters; on the edge of their box and on the edge of our box we are crap.

On the edge of their box; that is why Jelavic is crap, in simplistic terms Pienaar is coming inside to CM too often there is nobody to link with Baines on a regular basis.

When it was LB and SP any one of a number could come and make the triangle. that's why Jelavic is out wide so much.

On the edge of our box; we aren't getting enough good cover. For one of their goals Gibbson came over to back up Coleman and to my eyes only succeeded in getting in the way and confusing Coleman.

Memo to new boss ( have wrote off old boss 127days and counting 'til the end of June ) FIX THE MIDFIELD.

Wouldn't it be nice to try and score the 2nd. The Moyes 11 years will be remembered for trying to defend a I goal lead. Sporting Lisborn 2nd leg, Liverpool last years semi, Norwich twice this season, it just goes on. He's stubborn, negative and morose. Even the legend finished 4th season it was done on 1-0.
We as in Everton Football Club, need new and fresh ideas, our image is awful, and the footbal is horrible to watch. I don't think Spurs fans are pissed off the club never made a move for him do you?
Dave Lynch - with you all the way.

Brendan,

If we accept 6th/7th position is where we will finish, that we can't break through because of the money situation, could we not try to play more attractive football? Instead of the 'hold what we have' mentality?

We could play more adventurous football, go for the second goal... We would probably turn some of the draws into defeats but we would definitely turn some of them into wins. The stuff we are watching, the retreat to the edge of our box when holding a 1-goal lead is suffocating.

Five years ago we bought... I'll say that again... bought... Pienaar, Baines, Jagielka, Yakubu, Gosling for close to £30m and rid ourselves of AJ and McRooney for £15m.

Nothing has changed in five years?

Here's a look at the table

1 - money
2 - shit loads of money
3 - shit loads of money
4 - money
5 - money
6 - NOT A POT TO PISS IN
7 - money
8 - loose change
9 - loose change
10 - loose change...

You can kick and scream about Moyes not doing this that and the other but one thing is for sure, and that is we are trying to beat teams over the course of an entire season who have more players and better ones at that. Teams that were able to buy again in January, the window that did us so good the previous year.

If WH can beat Spurs today then its no different to 3pm yesterday. If they don't, well, no more CL at all.

I wish people would stop trying to make excuses for David Moyes accepting mediocrity has now become the norm. He is ultimately responsible for the team and the buck stops with him. Who else is to blame for not strengthening the squad?

Why didn't he buy the players he wanted at the start or even in the middle of the transfer market instead of trying to get the player signed at the last minute, not allowing for any contingency plans if the deal fell through, which it did?

He came to Everton with a 5-year plan and it has now become a 10-year plan: yet still no trophy. Moyes needs to leave; even though he has done a decent job in stablising the club, his time is up — he cannot take this club any further.

5 years ago the writing was on the wall that Moyes bottles the big games and produces a league team positioned about where the wage bill is.

No cups and absolutely no chance of a spectacular charge on CL places is a given the question is does Brendan's view of "what's not to like?" and "25 yrs more" fill you with joy or dread.

Can't go with that Barry.

To reach CL we have to be 2 places higher than we are. But CL is 6 or 7 higher than our place in the wage bill table.

Just saying...

Given that Moyes has us finishing "about where the wage bill is" Barry, what makes you think any other flavour of the month manager will do better?

Imagine for a second that the board had given Moyes some funds in January. We saw last season (and heard from the players) what a boost new faces can give the second half of the season. What decent manager is going to take a look at Everton and think "now there is a club I'd love to go work at".

Moyes has his faults but the board are equally responsible for this train wreck of a sesaon.

Nick#066; WHU might beat Spurs and nothing would have changed in the greater scheme of thing Re the placings

Except;

That; We have one game less to regain the ground.

That; Moyes has been in charge one more game without learning from the mistakes he was making 5yrs(?) ago Vs Spurs and the Hibbert substitution debacle.

Walter got the boot after a cup game around 11yrs ago.

Sometimes what goes around comes around, call it karma or symmetry what ever.

Even for a not got a pot to piss in Club like us 4mths compo for Davy is well orth the price

Pull the plug now Bill

Pull the plug? The club is the dying elderly relative and Moyes has been the one shouting 'CLEAR' for years!

Sad to say.those who control the Club see anything above half-way as success and reward their senior employees accordingly.There is no ambition greater than this,just a blind acceptance that as all the clubs above us have access to more money-whether gifted or generated-we should be grateful that the manager can deliver a little more than the minimum requirement.
Whenever the pundits discuss Moyes,money is always the reason given for his lack of silverware or serious challenge for a top four place.And,of course,that has a hell of a lot to do with it.But it washes over his abysmal team selections, tactics and built in fear of change which must permeate to his players-particularly the younger ones..
These days he comes over as as an arrogant,comfortable and self-satisfied guy with little hunger for greater achievements.He has begun to believe all the fawning the media does over him and I think we`re stuck with him.Any day soon,I expect to read that he and his mate have agreed a one year rolling contract which will remove this and any future speculation about his` job for life` at Everton.
Sorry folks!

Nick; do you want ( not do you think he will ) Moyes to sign a new contract?

Michael Kenrick; things have hit nearly rock bottom ( we haven't played Oldham yet )

Time for a Poll: simple yes or no; Moyes in charge for the start of next season.

Wow, some actual positives about Moyes on this site, it's been a while.

Nick, your table makes a good point. Some HUGE changes need to be made to keep this league competitive, in general this has been a poor year so far for the PL.
It worries me as an Everton fan most of all that as more teams are bought out we'll be left behind, and we'll suffer in the long term.

Didn't one of our regular contributors, Jim Hourigan, know a few Preston fans who gave him the low down on Moyes? If I recall, they pretty much said he was a disciplinarian, played a certain way, never accepted mistakes? I'm sure he posted about that years ago as well. If my memory is correct, it seems the Ginger one is not for turning - which is a shame, but I think it's that trait in him which has stopped him ever landing a "bigger" club.

(And apologies to Jim H if I am mistaken)

I think it was call the preston perspective it's in the archive somewhere

Just get him out. 11 years is far to much. State-of-the-art training facilities with draconian methods.

I just cannot describe the frustration from the start of the 2nd half yesterday until leaving Carrow Road. We simply appeared unable to have the "bottle" to go and get a 2nd goal that would have killed off Norwich.

The last time I can remember us playing up to an opponents 18 yard box and then being scared, yes scared to gamble in an effort to do that something special to create a goal scoring opportunity was in the Walter Smith final season at West Ham away.

It appears to me that our players have in their subconscious what they can and cannot do. There`s nothing wrong with being organised, indeed regimental at times, but in the final third player`s need to show creativity and not go across the pitch allowing opponents to get 10 men behind the ball.

Whilst having this rant I would also say that it annoys me when you see Naismith obviously scared to do anything cos of the barracking travelling blues continuously delivered, what minimal confidence the lad had has been completely eroded by our own, a disgrace, especially as he did little wrong in losing possession unlike our star Leighton whom gave the ball away 3 times on the trot in a 5 minute spell in the first half.

I suppose the summary is that regardless of the no money, gripes an all, I paid £45 to watch that yesterday and with the assistance of Mason we defeated ourselves, the same happened at Fulham and Reading away, 8 points down the toilet.

If Moyes is to depart, I will thank the stability that he period has brought and the structure that we have, I would however welcome some new qualities from a replacement, being a better balance. At 1-0 up away from home, a mentality to go & get a 2nd goal, instead of foot off the pedal, we`ll survive when evidently we haven`t kept a clean sheet in months.

Perhaps an attacking-minded Manager with a defensive-minded coach is the way to go. I still feel angry to the pit of my guts, let`s hope for Cup success, I cannot see anything better than a 6th finish and to do that we`ll need to avoid defeat at Anfield.

I remember reading it and it was all true, not quite a smoking gun or a damning indictment. But enough to ring true given what was going on when I read it...05-06-ish

Taxi

I said it was a big week. One defeat from one, two more and he's gone, simple as that.

My own personal opinion is that the wheels are coming off, if exceeding slow, on many levels. I doubt though, that the clatter of falling wheels will reach Bill's gaff.

Only he has the executive power to change things, unless he is that much in thrall to others that he can't fart without permission.

Act Now Bill.

Paul Mackie this reference to a league position in isolation might be meaningful if we were doing an arsenal ie winning zip but getting CL qualification every year but it just isn't so.

Anyone seeing their team win a trophy at Wembley and saying they'd give it up for 5th to 10th needs a medical evaluation and that's exactly what Moyes record shows.

Derek, do I want him to sign? Yes.

If other clubs found a manager as good as Moyes their club would be up with Everton doing it each and every season on a budget. But they don't.

Being Everton doesn't mean jack, we're not up where we are because of history and we're 'big' or the club motto or have a right to do so... the 90s proved that.

The manager is the reason why we're up in 6th. Was it you Barry who was saying Moyes is all 80%? He should have us higher, but don't forget he gets us where we are to begin with and no Martinez or Lambert or whatever flavour of the month would do so.

But if we'd get Mourinho it would be thanks for the memories David!

I have to say,Barry,that I`d cut Moyes some slack if his eleven years` performance was laced with three or four cup triumphs.Unfortunately,his failure in that direction is indicative of his fear of failure and paucity of imagination in these one-off games.The trouble is,everything he does is judged against the dreadful days of Walker and Smith and BK`s fear of a return to that level.Moyes has allowed him to sleep nights-or at least allowed him 24/7 to attract investment!

Nick, you say "The manager is the reason we're up in 6th" by that reasoning then Nick, when we get beat Moyes should shoulder most of the blame then?

Moyes has enhanced his reputation by playing dour, defence minded KITAHTKO football that has produced decent League finishes.

Ask him to go out and win a game on the Continent, or a big game against better opposition then forget it. Does his record at the "Sky Four" not tell you all you need to know about his mindset, and talent as manager?

Percentages is all you can ever expect, and for £4m a season, we should expect more. Are any of his supporters going to tell the teams have never had an off day in 11 years at the grounds mentioned? He has gone away from home and rolled over, trying to nick a draw.

Everyone back for corners, nick a goal and sit back, play one up front, let Cahill try to sneak a goal from a set piece, retain players because they obey your every order, ten men behind the ball, the comical hoofing, reactive substitutions, strikers running the channels, all traits of a man playing percentages.

Time is up, let's see who can freshen up this club with £63m to spend on wages, and one of best salaries in world football.

Nick; I can see your point and up to a point partly agree with it. It must be a personal thing, a character trait, call it what you will, but I've had enough of, to give it it's short version, KITAP1.

I / we maybe cutting our collective noses off to spite our collective faces... and I do know that the instigator of all this angst is the Board... but Moyes has pissed me off one time too many

Nose face maybe but there it is

Yeah why not Brian, so long as you give equal credit for a win and so-so for a draw and oh look, we're 6th.

Playing squad + finances, I don't know why people think things should be different i.e. better. They should be worse.

Yes Moyes has his faults, but don't ignore where he puts us. It like being married to Kylie Minogue but slapping her about for not having bigger tits!

Eric Myles, if you think Vellios or whoever else getting 5 minutes here and 10 minutes there as a sub coming on when we are losing is getting a chance then you are as mad as Moyes. A player needs at least half-a-dozen games to bed in and get match fit, ffs. Judge players after they get a decent run of games.

Brendan @ 009

What's not to like? Well, that's easy. We don't want survival football every season. Even this season once, we went 4th Moyes, had us playing like we were in the bottom 3 trying to avoid relegation. Where's the will to kick on and play a more attacking game which would enable us to score more golas? Hanging on like a rock climber whose foot has slipped in every game is not a well thought-out gameplan.

The thing with Moyes is his football is all bacon sarnies with out the brown sauce — there's no substance to it. The Moyes brand is useless, spineless and futile... What's to like about that?

New ideas are needed: pace, power and athleticism all over the pitch. In 11 years here we have not had a decent wide player or any attacking pace. The whole club reeks of complacency from the board to the manager to the players. Even the supporters accept mediocrity as if we can't do any better if Moyes leaves.

Derek, KITAP1 was not on display yesterday. It hasn't been on display all season, and half of last season. We played some decent stuff up till 70 minutes, and if (yes yes if) we kept that up and won 1-0 we'd all be very happy with result and performance, especially as it showed a marked improvement.

The goals were sloppy defending, the fear in the last 20 shameful. But that isn;t KITAP1.

Nick#107 I should be so lucky, lucky, lucky lucky.

I know it wasn't KITAP1, yesterday it was worse, it was LMF, lack of moral fibre

But if Moyes was a stick of rock he would have KITAP1 in blue toffee running through him.

Time for bed said zebedee, over and out...that goes for Moyes and Kenwright.

Guess it just boils down to them that`s satisfied and them that ain`t! So many on here have the same disease as Moyes.Fear of change.
Like going for a win,really.You might lose the point or you might just add another two to it.Moyes gets us a point (usually!)-so it could be worse-but gawd,it ain`t half boring!

Satisfied? Un-satisfied? I agree that football is all about opinions. In your day to day personal lives, do all the Moyes supporters apply the same beliefs? "It's a nice house, but the schools are rubbish...can't be arsed moving though because I'm averagely happy" "My job is ok, but there is a promotion available. I won't apply though because I might not get it" It's about ambition and Moyes lacks it, simples!

We simply had to strengthen in January. We didn't now we are paying the price. All we got was talk and phantom bids from Kenshite and cronies. Moyes knows this and that is way he is non committal and despondent. Who can blame him really. I see no way out of the darkness unless BK sells up. With or without Moyes is a secondary issue for me. Unless our manager, whoever it is, is given funds to remain competitive to our peers we are simply treading water until all our best players are cherrypicked away.

Spot on James. Any new manager will have to sell most of our better players to start again. We need a shit load of first X1 and bench quality. Keeper, centre half, left back if baines goes, 2 centre mds when fellaini goes, right mid, left mid, and centre forward x2.

I detest Kenwright as much as the next man but it's not Boys Pen Bill playing Jelavic on the wing or pulling him off in favour of defenders when trying to protect one-goal leads.

Is it BK who keeps faith with Neville and Osman despite both being woefully out of form since November?

Is it Kenwright who decides to overlook players who are chomping at the bit on the bench while others play every game?

Is it BK who makes the team fear every opponent they meet?

No, it's not.

If David Moyes did know that Bill Kenwright let him down so badly why didn't he do the honourable thing and resign? he would have been justified in doing so, the fans would have known what was happening and Bill Kenwright would have been outed for what he is.

David Moyes was the right manager for the club for his first five years, but he no longer fits the bill, he will never have money at Goodison and it's no use him or us thinking otherwise.
Kenwright and Moyes between them have besmirched our motto, removed any notion of ever seeing a proper Number 9, and reduced the fan-base to being thankful for a top ten finish and maybe the odd run in the cup.

The whole structure of the club has to change, if like so many people keep saying, we are no longer able to play with the big boys, then we have to cut our cloth accordingly, ship out the high wage earners and focus on youth development.

We need someone who can rebuild the club from top to bottom, a person with vision, a person who has a long-term project, I used to think that person was David Moyes but I was totally wrong, he is just another mercenary manager who will ply his trade to the highest bidder, whilst serving up for the most part dour predictable football.

James @132. I concur. If we had just spent only the £3m that Newcastle did on Gouffran and Sissoko then I think we could well have 6 more points by now.

Moyes is not blameless but the clubs failure to bring in any fresh playing staff in January given our strong position is a big part of why we look so stale and devoid of spark right now. Just look what Pienaar, Gibson and Jelavic did for us in january last season.

Alot of the players came out saying that they were looking forward to new people coming in. Newcastle have shown there was affordable talent available. Wether it was Moyes, or Kenwright or the scouting team...someone slipped up. We will now pay the price.

I have always backed Moyes, but have still also been aware of things that other managers can do better. Up until this season I haven't wanted change because I could see us dropping back to pre-Moyes relegation battles. I still fear that, and fear instability as we enter a post-Moyes era, but am starting to see how stale things are and how the manager's relationship with the chairman means the status quo is retained and that isn't always a good thing. A manager bringing fresh ideas and impetus and pressure on the board could be good come the summer.

I still hope to see us end the season with renewed belief and better results, but I think we will see a summer in which Baines, Fellaini and Moyes all leave. I wouldnt blame them all either even though I'd be gutted.

Everton will never change until we get ALL our supporters onside. Moyes is the biggest wage earner at the club (paid more than any player). Do the fans want more or are the fans content with David Moyes after 11 years in charge?

My opinion is that change is necessary as Everton are becoming predictable both on and off the field and we are standing still (always finish about the same place in the league, never win anything, cannot beat our neighbours etc etc..).

If we want to move forward, let's take a chance like Swansea did on Laudrop (young manager, won a trophy in his first season).
If things don't work out, there are plenty of managers who can do a 'David Moyes' for us for the next 11 years! Easy decision for me.

Moyes sold Bily last January and freshened the squad up with Jelavic and Gibson with that money. Could he have done the same this January? Of course he could, but he chose not to. He could have sold Johnny, he could have sold Fellaini, or even Baines and got new players in with the proceeds. £30 million for Fellaini could have got Fer (medical permitting obviously) and that Negredo according to rumours of prices; but no, let's keep the same tired squad.

A manager earning what he earns should have idea after idea, regardless of the situation, but not Moyes. Why do you think Alex Ferguson replaces his number 2 every couple of years? For fresh ideas – that's why... and he is never scared to sell a 'star' neither.

Like the rest of you, I thought that this would be the season something special would happen. A champions league spot, a trophy, anything really. But as the seasons drawn on we've all come to the realization that it's just not going to happen.

I would gladly welcome a new manager come next season. Someone with fresh ideas, someone who will play on performances not friendship, someone who will bring back a sense of pride to the players, make them die for their club like they would have years ago.

There are plenty of managers doing great things in the lower leagues in England with even less money than Everton. Maybe it's time we call one of them up and see what they can do.

Gee, Tony Marsh, you're very harsh. Keep it coming, mate, I fully endorse every word. As a blue for over 50 years, I've seen some very good football and even the Dogs of War had a bit of bottle and Limpar could play a bit.

Moyes lacks bottle, couldn't win a fucking argument and is as tactically inept as they come. "Oh but look what he has achieved at Everton," say the pundits... What exactly?

Time for Moyes to go and no fucking way does he deserve another contract for the shite that is served up as football. Negative slow-paced crab football with your best forward on the bench while a no-mark fucking Scot runs around in Blue. Go now... fuck off to wherever!!!!!

Anto, unfortunately he is going nowhere. He will sign his contract either one week before, or one week after the early bird season ticket renewal date.

It is a fucking game he and his chairman play, and he fully goes along with it.