It's nothing to do with his salary. Whether you earn a bit more, when you are already earning £4 million, makes no difference whatsoever.

He's decided to not sign until he does get backing from the board, that's quite an admirable decision and is not being selfish in that respect.

However, if he does sign he'll probably get a new and improved contract with more moneys.

The only logical conclusion is that we're his insurance card in case he doesn't get his wish to go to a more moneyed club – which by the looks of things will not happen. Neither Citeh nor Chelsea will touch him and the others won't be available anyhow (even if they would consider him).

I truly wish he goes... but, unless he wants a complete break from the game, my money is that we're stuck with him.

The way I see it, DM knows that Felli will be leaving, and with the bigger TV deal coming into effect I think he is making sure he will have a slice of the cash before it slides into the black hole that is EFC's accounts. If they don't back him, I think he will be gone.

I genuinely believe it has nothing to do with his wages or another job. And I don't think he will be looking for massive cash injections every summer, just that progress can and will be maintained (on the pitch anyway), with the right boardroom support. Whether he gets them assurances, and some cash this summer will be the deciding factor on him staying or going.

I thought he was gone maybe Arsenal, Man City or Chelsea being just desperate enough to give him a go but the journos who often lobby managers into these clubs are running the "no trophies" tag big time.

In a terrific twist of irony the great support of chairman Bill is being used to beat him over the head with!!!

Bill provides stability and gives Moyes unfettered control over 11 years something only Utd and Arsenal can match but without a sniff of their success it makes the 4 million pound Moyes position not so shabby, in fact he looks damned lucky.

I suspect we're stuck with him I'm afraid.

Personally, I hope he stays. He's built bridges at Sky and for what was a punt on an unqualified coach 11 years ago he's grown in stature in the English game. We shouldn't underestimate the respect he gets from within the game. That's a commodity on it's own, just ask whiskey nose.

Did you mean to say "He's built bridges at Sky"?

If so what does this mean?

I genuinely don't have a clue.

Understatements `R' Us

That's simply not right.

Minge-bag should have a hyphen surely!

'He' as in David Moyes, the incumbent Everton manager.

'Built' as in constructed.

'Bridges' as in the big thing that spans gaps

'Sky' as in the media conglomerate that dominates football and the daily football agenda in this country.

Anything else? Do you want me to cut the crusts off your sandwiches?

'Ilia, help me, go and ask Mr Moyes, what is this 'track.. back'....?'

He won't get a better Club because there isn't one. Thought that obvious. But get another job? He only has to sit home and wade thru the offers.

Who do you think we have in as next manager?

"He' as in David Moyes, the incumbent Everton manager".

Yeah, got that.

"'Built' as in constructed".

Right

"'Bridges' as in the big thing that spans gaps"

Well 'bridges' is plural and 'thing' singular so technically this should be "'Bridges' as in the big thingS that span gaps'" but..yeah, still with you.

"'Sky' as in the media conglomerate that dominates football and the daily football agenda in this country".

Ahhh right I'm with you!

Cheers for that!

Oh wait, hold on, so..was there some sort of BROKEN Everton-Sky bridge?

Or did a bridge between Everton and Sky simply not exist pre Moyes?

And if he built a bridge how EXACTLY how did he build it?

And why?

And why would it be, as you suggest, a good thing?

Honestly, I'm curious - I now know WHAT you said, just no idea why or what relevance it has to...well, any fucking thing.

On the other hand, Martinez can't wait to take over the reins and is odds on with the bookies to do so. He'll be perfect for Kenright and them. He speaks English with a Continental accent, media friendly; suave with all of it. Perfect for our owners.

Alas, we fans will only be able to rerference him by his record.

Basil is twirling in his grave.

Man Utd — Fergie not leaving yet.
Arsenal — Wenger not leaving
Chelsea — A long shot maybe if Mourinho does not return.
Man City — A very long shot if they don't win FA cup and Mancini is fired.
Spurs — AVB staying

Any other club in England is a step down from what he has built with us.

Perhaps Germany and specifically Schalke might be an option or something unseen by us like a rich Russian club or top Dutch club. Otherwise, it would seem better employment prospects are thin on the ground and therefore he will be staying.

The 70% comes from the shithouse tactics at the usual suspects, and some of the dire shite we have sat through. Add to this the lack of tactical changes when things are clearly not working.

The 30% in his favour however, can be attributed to the lack of funds compared to the likes of Sunderland, Spurs and the Dark Side.

Do I think he would change much with £20m each season to spend? Nah, not really. That £20m may get us into the CL though. Where we would go from there is anyone's guess

If Moyes goes and we bring in say Mark Hughes or someone of that ilk... you'd be happy enough?

Unlikely as it seems, we are still in with a shout of the Champions League place with 8 games to go, yet so many on here are still stating he is technically inept etc, etc.

So Paul #580 et al., crack all the cheap Presbyterian jock jokes you like, fact is EFC need a manager who can find value for money. If it was up to you bunch of clowns, you'd have a managerial spend policies like those that O’Leary opted for at Leeds.

Things can also change for the better and I don't recall Moyes being around when we won our last silverware.

It may be an old article but you can begin to see where our predicament stems from.

Investment is the key that we all believe will change things but just sometimes it doesn't happen. Just look at the money QPR have spent and they will still go down. I firmly believe, however, that Moyes has been approached and will go along with Fellaini.

And speaking of Di Canio, there was a vacancy at Sunderland until he was appointed. Did anyone from here submit their CV? Sorry you lost out to Di Canio, if you did. However you could always turn your attentions to Swindon Town and conquer the Premiership with the mighty Robins. There so much managerial talent registered on this site it's extraordinary it remains ignored by those within the game. Their loss no doubt.

Could you enlighten us all on what subjects we are allowed to discuss?

In fact, why do I bother going to the game? It's like Chinese writing, I haven't got a clue what is happening. It's just a blur with a ball being kicked about.

Dope.

Cheers mate I will.
Warwick Hunt the jock bundle of fun is.

To those who want him out — had he won a single trophy, how would you feel about him? And to those that would like him to stay — what do you expect from him over another 5 years??

Personally, I would like to see the club invest in bringing the club into this century with good marketing, a youth system to be proud of (I think we are close to that), and some real 'written down in rock' plan for either re-development of Goodison Park or a move, as we are slipping behind the likes of Brighton and their ilk on that one.

If he signs, then I will back him and his teams every week; if he doesn't, then I will get behind the new manager with the same vigor!!!!

Of course you're perfectly allowed to think that. Just don't believe what you think is fact, unless you can back up what you think with facts.
Further, why the hyperbole? "Audley Harrison is a terribly bad boxer?" Compared to whom? Perhaps 20, 30 people in the world who are better than him, I dunno ...
Does that make him "terribly bad"? Are you *that* good at *your* job? Sincerely, hats off to you if you are. Or is there an inferred context of, "comopared to the best in the world?". That may be a fair point but ...

... I cannot understand how the vitriol dished out to certain individuals is justified, simply because they don't do what you (the collective TW you) want (apparently Phil Neville is a shithouse and a charlatan).

Neither can I understand the pompous, puffed-up chest posturing of "superior thought" that often accompanies the insults ... "It was obvious Moyes should have done this, that, etc."

If you (the collective TW you) are so much better that the individuals in question, get off your fat arses and do something about it. Passion for the game, and for EFC in particular, does not justify disrespect, imho, nor can it be used to cloak arrogance.

Not aimed personally at you at all James, your response to me was spot on.

Perfectly sums it up for me as well.

Well go on then, as it's all so 'clear' to you.

WHAT Sky bridges were built by Moyes and how and when?

And then when you've answered those questions, explain any relevance these (invented) bridges have to...anything.

Sure you'll make it all very clear.

Nb: By the way, if appearing on Sky once a season with obnoxious nob-head 'Kammie' is 'building bridges', I think you'll find a lot of managers in the PL have built one.

There is strong empirical evidence that Eugene is for real but I feel that several assumptions have been made regarding his sandwiches. For instance:

Does Eugene actually eat sandwiches?

Why would he want anyone to cut his crusts?

Is it because he dislikes crusts, and if so, why?

Is there any substance to the alleged links between crusts and curly hair?

Will Eugene come out and admit that his sandwiches are actually upper crust?

Or all in all, does he prefer bridge rolls?

…. It’s been a long day.

It would make a nice change if we heard, “Be happy what you wished for”! Look at Chelsea and Man City with Premier league trophies.

Perhaps if Moyes does go, he’ll take the negativity with him.

If BK's been hiding behind Moyes or Moyes proping up BK (whichever way you see it) for the last decade then you need to ask yourself one simple question. Which (if given the choice) would you prefer more;

a) Moyes staying, or
b) BK/board leaving

Can't have both....

You say "Look at Chelsea and Man City" — what's your point? Are you trying to suggest that it is managerial decisions which bear the lion’s share of responsibility for their (err... purchased) achievements?

The way some people post here it’s like they think the departure of Moyes will somehow be associated with a huge capital injection. I personally think Moyes is a much better manager than Mancini.

The worst-case scenario painted by the MOB post-Moyes is that we'll sacrifice a few league places for more attractive exciting football... so the apologists will simply continue to make excuses for the new manager whilst an element of the MOB will be satisfied because we are playing better football... ipso facto — Kenwright's position becomes even more secure!

Fact: Any horse in The National that lame will be put out of it's misery.

The anti-Moyes camp seems to be split between those that think that another manager can do better given the same set of players/resources (ie, have a chance of winning a trophy whilst playing attractive football, even if it means we may drop a place or two – not much difference between 7th and 9th) and those that feel Moyes helps BK stay where he is.

If the above is somewhere near true, then members of both camps should want Moyes to go, so as to bring about BK leaving quicker.

Personally, I don't buy the whole "we'll implode / can't get anyone better" and think it's rubbish given there are loads of other managers out there and Moyes himself was a no-mark when he came to us. I do however believe that if he went, we would be one step closer to BK and the board buggering off.

If a new manager came in and did well, everyone would be happy (unfortunately BK would be as well).

If a new manager came and didn't do so well, pressure on BK would increase and he'd (hopefully) bugger off sooner.

So, all-in-all, I don't see much of a downside if Moyes goes – only upside. After 11 years, we can pretty much guess what the next 5 will be like if he stays.

I doubt Moyes can take Everton forward from this point on; he is not doing a good enough job with blooding youngsters (or buying youngsters that have great potential).

The other problem is his stubborn way in always picking players clearly out of form or injured just because he rates them the best.

Moyes is not able too see when changes has to be made in order to be a top winning side, he is a good manager but he is not a top manager and will probably never win anything in his time here.

I think we need a new top manager at some point in order to win things again.

Especially for you
I want to let you know what I was going through
All the time we were apart
I thought of you
You were in my heart
My love never changed
I still feel the same

Especially for you
I want to tell you I was feeling that way too
And if dreams were wings, you know
I would have flown to you
To be where you are
No matter how far
And now that I'm next to you

No more dreaming about tomorrow
Forget the loneliness and the sorrow
I've got to say
It's all because of you

And now we're back together, together
I want to show you my heart is oh so true
And all the love I have is
Especially for you

Especially for you
I want to tell you, you mean all the world to me
How I'm certain that our love was meant to be
You changed my life
You showed me the way
And now that I'm next to you

I've waited long enough to find you
I want to put all the hurt behind you
Oh, And I want to bring out all the love inside you
Oh, You were in my heart
My love never changed

Another annoyed Guardian reader.

Manchini? The h is silent... as in, you're talking site again.

What I meant was that, if things stay as they are, there is no chance of change and, in 5 years time, we'll still be discussing the same things (no trophies, crap football, bitch about the board, bitch about no transfer funds etc). Moyes leaving would bring about change quicker and ironically the worse the new manager did, the more pressure would be put on BK (which is what my worst case scenario was).

What I forgot to mention in my post is that I also believe that Moyes acts as a shield protecting BK; if he went, this shield would also go – hence more pressure on BK.

We have not been relegated for over half a century so it would be one immense collapse for that to happen. A new manager does not guarantee more success, but also does not mean it can't happen. Worst case scenario is that the new manager is also successful and also (like Moyes) shields BK.

Incidentally, while relegation is improbable, it's certainly not impossible, given how many more richer teams there are in the PL than us. Not that fear of the unknown should drive us but I would certainly be thinking about it if we brought in a likely yes-man in the Mark Hughes / Steve McClaren mold.

There could be some truth in that, the BBC love putting people with no personality on MotD.

Bloody big "if" though.

Surely for his own credibility, he would have to leave if BK doesn't come up with the goods? You can't do what he's doing (which I 'get' but it's a bit shitty all the same) then just abandon your 'protest' and carry on as normal.

Lose heavily to Spurs and we may know sooner than we thought....

Firstly, who do I want as manager? No 1 candidate would be Rijkaard, 2nd choice Martinez, 3rd choice Steve Clarke.

Secondly, What offers will he have to look through?

Who would want a manager who in 11 years has won NOTHING whatsoever despite having a number of opportunities that he has cocked up, Wigan, Liverpool in the semi, Chelsea in the cup final.

I want you to list for me the teams who would offer Moyes a job at their club the minute he leaves in June; I guarantee there won't be many.

Why would any top club want a manager who has added value to a squad of players season after season, is well respected in the game, has a reputation for being dignified, has never bad-mouthed the chairman no matter what constraints he's been put under, has never even came close to losing the dressing room, who won (was it?) 6 on the bounce without a recognised striker, took a team of mostly other clubs' reserve players to CL qualification, who is actually admired by the most respected manager in world football, is 2 retirements from being the elder statesman of Premier League managers, works tirelessly for his club, is liked by everyone in the game except Mancini, has stabilised a club in the doldrums on the point of relegation and moved them on with a negligible net spend, has unearthed gem after gem that other managers have passed on.

Yeah, I don't know why anyone would consider giving such a man a job.

Since "Mr Popular" has been here the following clubs have won trophies:

Swansea City
Portsmouth
Middlesbrough
Birmingham City

The following clubs have reached major finals in England or abroad since Moyes has been here but lost:

Middlesbrough: UEFA Cup
Fulham: Europa League
Cardiff: FA Cup
Portsmouth: FA Cup
Bolton: League Cup
Bradford City: League Cup

Where were we in those occasions?

Also, remind me again, how many trophies has Moyes won? NONE, hardly big club material is it?

Would you seriously think that Mr Abramovich would want Gollum when other managers with far better CVs could be appointed, e.g. Mourinho, Klopp, etc.

Also, what's the saying — Nice guys don't win? He might be popular with the other managers but when managers like Martinez outclass him and leave him standing there like a rabbit caught in the headlights it doesn't matter does it? He could have Messi in the team and he'd still have him isolated and asking him to track back.

John, let me ask you, which big clubs would consider Moyes in the summer, and I mean THIS summer if he doesn't sign? I can't think of anyone.

I think I know: 11 years... no trophy.

When has finishing in 6th ever been a criteria for a top 4 job? Never. Mourinho was given his jobs because he had success, and not for a minor position in his various leagues. Fergie was given the Man U job for success with Aberdeen and I could go on giving examples.

6th would be a criteria for maybe Newcastle or Villa but not for Chelsea or Man Utd.

Moyes believes so much in his own wallet and his hype raised by the media that he would decline most of the 20 anyway. I was also asking where were we for most of the teams listed because most of them profited from a competition in which big teams were KO'd in order for them to reach the final. And for each of those examples I listed, Moyes didn't capitalise or we were KO'd by a smaller team, eg, Leeds, or Wigan in the League and FA Cup.

Teams like Villa or Newcastle might offer him a job but would Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, Man City or Man Utd consider him, with his CV? No. He's missed his opportunity to move on.

Martin O'Neill has won League titles with Celtic & tasted cup success with Leicester City twice... fits your profile perfectly?

Agree.

However the words 'leopard' and 'spots' springs to mind.

O'Neill got to the Uefa Cup Final with Celtic, something Moyes will never do. He deserves the big jobs, not Moyes.

Paul Andrews, let's give DM the money to buy Ronaldo, Van Persie, Carrick, Vidic, Van Nistelroy, Velencia, Drogba, Lampard, Mata, Torres, Essien, Shevchenko, Ivanovich, Alonso, Y. Toure, Kompany, Tevez, Silva, Milner, Zabeletta, Nasri, Suarez (spit) or even Modric, Adebayor, Luiz, Podolski, Young, J. Cole, Barry, Cahill, Hazard, Nani, Anderson or Robben.

Pick any 2/3 of those players and put them into any of the teams DM has built for Everton. The riches clubs buy the best players for everyone else it's a lottery. DM has competed but without the quality and depth that other clubs can afford he has to manage the vagaries of form, injuries and suspensions. He's done excellently and anyone who says differently is fucking clueless. Just my opinion.

"He could"...surely it's "he should". I mean I'm fine with Rijkaard but what have Martinez or Clarke won compared to O'Neill?

Well said Ross, we've never looked like we could win anything under him (let's not mention all those away games against the SKY clubs (42 of them without a win).

Another very valid point I would like to raise about the "Moyesiah", and one I think that big boys, should they in a moment of madness put him under the microscope of consideration, will quickly rule him out. It's simply that he's proved himself tactically inept in Europe, we've done ok against the lesser clubs, but as soon as we meet the likes of Fiorentina or Sporting Lisbon, teams well managed with guile and flair our "Moyesiah" has been well and truly exposed and found wanting.

Had he of had a good run in our one and only CL appearance or maybe made the final of the Europa he may of given himself a slight chance, but he's done nothing to single himself out.

Let's put him into context, there's a few on here have mentioned him with Chelski. Rafa Beneathus is the current incumbent, a man who has won the champions league with the unmentionables and took them to a CL second final, he's won the FA Cup and a couple of other cups. Compared to Moyes he is the real deal with a winning CV and that won't save him from the sack at chelski: what chance does the "Moyesiah" stand?

I'm beginning to fear we'll have him for the next 5 years, I don't know a red who who wants him to go (and I know lots of them!), It says it all.

I don't want him to, but I think he will sign again, and be our manager for at least another year or two.

While on the subject, people keep mentioning the extra TV money. Is it said that we get it in a lump sum at the start of the season of dealt out as we appear on TV? The latter seems more likely, and, therefore, easier for the board to sprinkle away on their debts/other operating costs/lawn mowers without investing it on the pitch.

Let's give him the money to buy Liam RIdgewell, Lee Bowyer, Seb Larsson, Nathan Dyer, Wayne Routledge. See if he can win a trophy then.

Just in case your clueless... The above players have all won a trophy in the last few years.

Remember an owner/chairman doesn't look at things in the same way as a fan and most would gladly swap one trophy for regular top seven PL finishes.

They spunked money they didn't have and imploded, now rotting in the Championship!

I am as annoyed as anyone with the missed opportunities to win silverware but using those clubs as an argument doesn't wash with me.

Sometimes it feels that anyone who dares to challenge or question the manager or the club is construed as being anti-Everton, which is a nonsense, save your bile and clever acronyms for the fans of rival clubs who unlike the posters on here care not a jot about what Everton do on or off the pitch.

The idea most clubs winning stuff don't and those relegated are renowned yo-yo clubs is mere frippery to be ignored while polishing the tin-foil hat.

These clubs, even with their historic ability to end up in the bottom 3, demonstrate a "one off" ability that eludes Moyes — stop kidding yourselves: Moyes is a choker.

As for the thread, much of the same. Fact is that Moyes has a very good league record and his overachievement in the league really highlights his underachievement in the cups.

He is probably one of if not the best manager outside of the top 5 but his lack of European success and propensity for his players to choke in some of the big cup matches and derbies mean that landing one of bigger jobs may be a long shot. That is why he will probably still be here next season and though I would not be against a change in the hotseat I don't look around and see many managers we could/would get who I think would do a better overall job.

Everton are a club without money. How many cups have been won by teams without, to the 6 teams who do? is it 4 or 5 out of the 21 so far?

84 teams win 4/5 cups against the 6 who have won 16/17.

It's a lottery and the point about relegated cup winning clubs is that picking up a domestic trophy does not define the likes of McCliesh with a winning mentality.

Yes, we should have won before penalties that night but we played woefully and bottled it in the first leg.

Can't really pin it on Yak's penalty.

A simple fact: When it really matters (against any kind of quality) the team fails to progress, it doesn't matter how we fail, but we fail. Whether it's 90 mins, 120 mins or pens, we have failed under the "Moyesiah".

Fiorentia are/were a quaility side who got past us when it really mattered. There's hundreds of games we played well in during DM's tenure, good periods just like against fiorentina, but I'll have to remind you about DM's wonder substitutions in that game, which defeat from the jaws of victory!

My point stands: teams with any sort of quality (Fiorentina, Sporting Lisbon etc, by the way these teams are not Man Utd or Barca, they're at our level) will beat us when it matters. I don't see how you can dispute that, the record speaks for itself.

Here's an excerpt from the BBC report: "It was desperately cruel on Everton after they made light of the two-goal first-leg deficit with a vibrant performance that threatened to sweep Fiorentina aside, creating chance after chance.

"Everton were without Tim Cahill, sidelined by a foot injury, but it did not stop David Moyes's side going on all-out attack against the high-flying Italians."

Desperately cruel, vibrant performance, all-out attack – All this from a dour, defensive minded, tactically inept PE teacher. It was practically the same team that froze against them in the away leg.

People keep using the away leg as a stick to beat Moyes with but conveniently overlook the fact that we absolutely battered them at Goodison and the result was "desperately cruel on Everton".

Moyes has many faults, but as I have constantly suggested, the players also need to take their share of the blame too. Yak and Jags missing penalties, your striker and one of your senior team members. Not too sure how tactics can be cited when missed pens ultimately cost us the game.

"For what it's worth, there's a strong rumour about Moyes going to the BBC?"

I read similar in the latest Bridge Builders Monthly?

There's a rumours section on p.3, just below the Mersey Gateway progress article

However, if people care to actually look at our cup records over the last decade, they will find that most of the time we have been knocked out by 'lesser' teams, so saying that Moyes' cup record is not that bad because only the big sides win regularly just doesn't make any sense.

Little FA Cup teaser for people - what do these sides all have in common? Birmingham, Fulham, Blackburn, Oldham, Reading, Wigan, Shrewsbury.

Little League Cup teaser for people - what do these sides have in common; Middlesborough x2, Leeds, Arsenal reserves, Blackburn, Tottenham, Brentford(!).

Whether you are for Moyes or against, can we please at least all agree that our cup record under him has been in general just garbage. Losing to the teams above has nothing to do with lack of money or a small squad - unless people are now saying that the likes of Brentford and Oldham have 'out spent us'. One off bad days happen and big sides sometimes lose to smaller sides, however under Moyes, this has been a regular occurance (especially the number of times its happened at home! (Reading, Oldham, Wigan, Blackburn etc)

Please - no more 'only the top sides ever win' nonsense - we regulary go out to minnows.

Tony, I'll say it as simply as I can.

There's a reason why we lose so many of these big matches, yes players and money are part of it, but the man who buys the players, chooses the team/tactics and motivates them to win, has never looked like winning anything. Sooner or later as happens at other clubs ((much much)later in our case) somebody ( in our case that spineless dollop BK) must come to the conclusion we may never win anything with him.

David Moyes is Tim Henman without his racket and pumps, standing on our sidelines in a suit or he's every England manager since Alf Ramsey (none of the ever looked like winning. Did they?). Had we have had a proper manager instead of those yes men employed by the FA (Clough and Paisley are two that come to mind), we might of won something. If we get rid of Moyes we increase our chances of winning something.

I also am trying to point out that the FA Cup Final and the Carling Cup Semi-Final we lost was against Chelsea, the first being when we lost Jags, Arteta and Yakubu against a side that should have knocked Barcelona out in the semi-final of the Champions League.

He has won "big" games, that's all I'm suggesting, I just don't toe the line with all the shite about he losses every "big" game.

Robert, Spot on, at least someone knows what they're talking about on here. Moyes is one of the shackles holding us back and it's absolute nonsense when people say we could go down if we lose Moyes; we won't, we'd progress further and win something.

If Barcelona and Marine swapped managers for a bit and played a series of games against eachother, who would you expect to win?

Eventually under a new manager we would win a trophy; Moyes has bottled numerous opportunities to do so.

I didn't say we would be relegated when Moyes leaves, I said that people seem to be suggesting that we would struggle after he has gone which is absolute crap as he has been holding us back, along with the board, so being free of Moyes would help us to progress further and achieve what we should have achieved if we had a better manager.

Does that mean Villa will eventually win another trophy?

I never said you mentioned relegation, but your hypothetical guff is the same as the crap about us being relegated if he goes.

If we lose to Fiorentina away he bottled it, when we beat them at home this doesn't count as a big game. Did their manager therefore bottle it too? Did Bayern bottle it against Arsenal because they lost at home in Munich? Any idiot can see that home and away advantage for whatever reason is disproportionately big in Europe. It was a simple case of they played really well at home, and so did we, two evenly matched sides who used home advantage and had to be separated by pens (which our players didn't bottle, they just had a great keeper). Did Moyes bottle it that year in the run up to the Fiorentina game where topped the group beating the eventual winners and htumping Brann over two legs, brekaing Alkmaars home record (or are these not big games if you win them, only if you lose?)

Games against Chelsea have been gone over so many times. There's no doubt that Moyes/the players bottled the recent league cup game against them (although I'm sure Moyes didn't tell Baines to miss a penalty or Mucha to throw the ball in his net) we should really have put them to the sword once they were a man down. Concenirng the FA cup, anyone expecting to face one of the top sides in Europe in a game that their season rested upon without our three best players and to comfortably win is absolutely delusional. That Chelsea side was ridiculous meanwhile we had a team far worse than the one now with its spine ripped out. We may have perhaps won if Osman's header had gone in but it was always going to be a smash and grab job. As it is Neville slips and the rest is history. If we'd scraped through by pens (like the RS do nearly every final) Moyes would have been king but because Lmapard curls home from 25 yards he somehow bottled the final? We were battered by a far superior team and deserved to lose.

For my mind the 'big' games Moyes has bottled that I can remember are, the Liverpool semi-final, the FA cup semi that we actually did win against a reserve United team (although look how many of them are now first team stars). The away derby match last year (if you count league derbies with nothing riding on them as 'big' games), the ones already included above, and of course WIgan at home this year considering the nature of the draw although that was a complete alround shambles which would suggest there was a lot more wrong there than Moyes telling the players to make sure not to lose. Early exits to lower league opposition in cups are a case of complacency and poor team selection, they happen to all sides and I do not ocnsider them 'bottling' or 'big games'. If they are mOyes has also therefore won a lot of them in his time.

Other games that he's supposedly bottled to my mind have been a mixture of bad luck, being battered by blatantly better opposition, or bad refereeing. Is it Moyes' fault that McFadden hits the post against Chelsea in the legaue cup or that Lescott gets outjumped by SWP? Is it Moyes fault that Rodwell nails a bullet at Distin who then waits until the Lisbon attacker is in the box before bringing him down when we were in control of the Lisbon tie? Is it Moyes' fault that Collina screwed him over (despite the fact Villareal were far far better than us over two legs) You could even say would the semi final had been different if Disitn hadn't of backpassed, yes the approach to it in the second half was wrong but people only remember the result after the match.

Benfica, Lisbon away, Standard Liege, Chelsea, Villareal were all just far better than us. Nothing to do with Moyes' approach to the game, they wer ejust better than us and we deserved to get beat. How anyone can say Moyes bottled the Benfica tie when you saw the reserve tem we had out compared to theirs including half the Argentine and Brazil national squads is beyond my comprehension.

If Liverpool away is the biggest game of the season for you then fine Moyes has bottled a few of them, most notably last years. We've also been outclassed in a few of them where there hasn't been a hint of bottling just getting battered. I would argue that we've only been superior to Liverpool for about 3 seasons of his 11. Considering his Anfield record reads 6 draws and 4 defeats it doesn't suggest he bottles it every time. Most times we've been worse and he's engineered a draw. It would be nice to have a win there but would people be happy if the record read W1 L9? We might have got a few smash and grab wins over there but in theory is that not just Liverpool bottling it and us getting lucky? The opportunities for us to go to Anfield with a fully fit squad that's better than theirs and play free flowing football have been few and far between but the few itmes they have been he has bottled it. This will be another test (providing everyone is fit).

Here's one for you, Moyes signs another 5 year deal and gets all of the Fellaini sale, spends wisely and wins the FA Cup.......hypothetical, but it could happen.

"4th most successful club in England" - Means nothing in the middle of a match, won't make Howard come off his line, or not make Jags hoof the ball any less

Enough from me, he is shit in the cups, I know that but as I stated from day one, I believe that the players also have to take the blame too. Why do they shit themselves so much, no matter how iffy Moyes may be feeling/looking, they are on the pitch and should be able to do the simple things, like pass the ball back to the keeper hard enough to keep it away from a sewer rat.

Ah yes but what if he bought Messi and Ronaldo?

Seeing as you are talking bollocks, I thought I'd join in.

Excellent post.

I'll let you off though, it's been a hard day on here!

I don't want him out because his football and subs have often been so negative, or due to bottling. My main concern is actually for the future of the club.

Moyes seems to want the club to take on further debt to service spending so he can challenge the 5 or 6 teams ahead of us. He seems generally unwilling to develop and use our academy talent and does not want to get rid of high earners who are not of sufficient quality. Neville, Heitinga, Naismith to name 3 of this years crop of useless shite.

Almost all the players we've ever sold for decent money have been sold against Moyes wishes - Arteta, Lescott, Rooney - yet this club will only ever have a chance of competing by proactively selling its "stars", using its youth team, and bringing in talent on a budget to replace them. Every time we've sold a "big" player, Moyes has been able to strengthen the squad and the team has become much better.

We can't compete by taking on further debt. We must compete by rotating the squad, selling our better players for a big profit and bringing in academy players and rising stars to replace them.

Could be worse, could be the other way round...

Hello Wayne,

He's got to go, we just have to be brave and hope for the best, we can't go on with the stagnant position we're in now.

That would be....sixth in the Premier League...on the back off three consecutive wins...eleven points better off than at this stage last season.

How can it possibly be 'stagnant,' when we've (to date) made numerical progress & improvement on last year?

The fanatical & increasingly-desperate calls for his head on the other hand....

James, I'm not sure how many people thought beating Sunderland last year wasn't important. Where'd that come from? Also, we had the home leg second against Fiorentina. That means, after a 2-0 away loss, 2-0 at home isn't really a win is it?

How anyone can say Moyes isn't a bottler is beyond me. How anyone can not want rid of him and his after the derby last year confuses me to no end. How anyone can defend him after his comments after that derby angers me. How anyone can defend him after he has continually moved the goal posts about deciding on his future the way he is just makes me laugh.

I will accept anyone as our new manager but not that weasily spiteful foul mouthed twat Lennon from Celtic.

(Noted Jimmy...soz)

And regarding our youth, what makes you think that we are producing talent that can earn us big bucks? which of those that we have sold have gone on to bigger and better things besides Rooney?

Consistently? Every season?

If you recognise that the board has been insturmental in holding us back, what makes you think they would not continue to do so with another manager?

Do you think they would give a new manager more money for players to help us progress futher? and if so why do you think it is that they are not supporting Moyes efforts to help us progress further? is it because they think he is not capable of progressing the team futher?

If so why has he been manager for so long, in such times or dire football and lowly league placings? And why do they want him to stay?

Have we?

Seems we are TOO complacent and have POORER team selection than them then???

- We aren't in the Champions League
- Don't win trophies

Champions league brings the moolah and winning trophies adds to our profile as a successful, competitive club. A cup final is a big game and winning big games is what we all dream about.

Moyes has choked far too often in big games and I cannot see how we can justify paying him what will be another huge outlay for the life of his contract.

I don't buy in the arguments that Moyes will stay just for the money and the fact he wont find a job elsewhere. People finding excuses to pain the picture of Moyes as a money grabber is desperate, just to try and get rid of him.

First off, Moyes doesnt need a job straight away. He's probably got loads of cash to last him a bit. He probably needs a break from the game. He can afford to wait a bit.

There have been plenty occasions where managers have waited 6 months or longer for another job. Just because Moyes, if he leaves Everton, doesnt get a job straight away doesnt mean he isn't wanted FOREVER. He's good enough to get another job.

I want Moyes to stay if he is still got the passion for it. That would be determined by money I reckon. If not, then getting someone else would be a risk, but it could go either way. I had always originally thought it would always go bad, but now I have thought, we have seen the same old same old for a while, putting a new guy in like Martinez, changing the style of the team completely, could go really well, as well as possibly really crap.

Personally if Moyes leaves, I would not be bitter at all, good luck to him.

Please provide indisputable proof of Moyes's Foreigner predilection or forever hold your peace. I want you to show me!!!

Now, because Moyes didn't get rid of lescott when it was clear he wanted to go, he left it till the last minute and ended up with panic buys(and completely fucked the start of that season). Thats not the clubs fault. Thats Moyes fault for being unwilling to let any major player go unless his hand is absolutely forced.

Even though heitinga has been shit this season, we had a few decent seasons out of him and Distin has generally been very good and still looks like he could go for another 4 or 5 years. Bily didn't work out, but like I say all 3 seemed like complete panic buys due to Moyes own dithering over the lescott saga.

Eric(282) - Moyes doesn't have to say anything about debt; its implied. We don't have rich owners like QPR or City. All the spending we have done is on the back of debt. Any future spending will be the same unless BK goes, money borrowed against future earnings or loans or whatever. We still need to pay interest on that which will cripple us further.

If Moyes didn't want the club to go further into debt and for the directors to basically put their own cash in, he should be openly asking for BK and his backers to piss off and sell the club to a group more willing to put their hands in their pockets. However, he's done the exact opposite, actively supporting BK and his cronies at every opportunity. What he wants is more cash to spend - however that cash is derived - and he wants the current owners to stay in place because there is no pressure/risk of sack.

Personally I'm not thick or reckless enough to want that for my club. You and others may have different opinions. As I've said, I favour a strategy which involves living within our means and I will argue against anyone who thinks differently. Given what's happened with the country at large, I'm surprised I even need to explain myself on this.

But go ahead and put your head in the sand and when BK feels pressured enough to increase our level of debt further to keep Moyes, and Moyes then spends that money, and should the club go into administration you can then feel righteous and pretend that Moyes didn't really want the club to take that debt on.

John Ruddy is probably a good example of one of the players who were released from our club and gone on to establish himself as a premier league regular, but there are two discrete questions to ask, in my opinion:

1) Can we sell home-grown players for a profit?

2) Are those players good enough to go onto "bigger" things or be regular premier league players for us?

They are not necessarily one in the same. Francis Jeffers is one example of someone who we fleeced arsenal £10M for, who was not worth anything like that on his performances. Rodwell does have ability to play at the top, but looks injury prone and it was a good decision to let him leave for £10M. We got a fee for James Vaughan too.

All of those players were getting regular time on the pitch for us when they were sold. If Rodwell had been given 5 mins here and there every 6 months like Barkley is, no one would've paid £10M for him and he would not have got near the England squad.

I'd like the next manager of everton to really make use of our younger players and get rid of big money players like Naismith and Neville who contribute very little on the pitch. I'd like to see regular game time for Barkley, Junior and Duffy and more game time for Vellios, Stones and McAleny so we can see what they're about. We don't need to do an Aston Villa, but a good mix of youth and experience is probably a decent way forward.

We invest a lot of money in our academy and we need to make it work as much as we can. Even if we play players who are ultimately shown to be not good enough, we've shown we can still fleece teams to buy them for a decent fee.

Didn't you see Vellios in the games he has started for us before? I'm not surprised he's not even on the bench, and as for the others you mention, do you think you know how good they are as opposed to the guys who see them every day?

"Moyes doesn't have to say anything about debt; it's implied." I think the word you were looking for was 'assumed', and you know what assuming does?

I don't recall vellios starting too many games for us; I just remember the odd 10 minute sub appearance where he has shown some decent touches. If he's shit get rid of him - Moyes has had years to look at him in the ressies - otherwise these players need game time.

Regarding your last point, how much of Moyes spending has been due to bill putting his own money forward and how much of it has been due to the club finding the money through debt and other means? None of the money Moyes has spent and continues to spend on wages etc has been brought in via investment. its all been got by either selling club assets or taking on loans secured against the club.

We're not stupid. Moyes isn't stupid. Bill says he's looking for investment, but he wont get anyone to stump up cash and leave him the trainset to play with. Therefore there will be no proper investment till he goes. Moyes knows this, we know this. If Moyes is demanding cash to spend from bill its only coming from one place, and thats the club. Argue around wording all you like, but that is what it boils down to.

Vellios has started a few games, one against Fulham was particularly memorable when he wasn't fit enough to make it to half-time.

You also forget Wayne that we are getting a £20M bonus this season plus what we get for Fellaini so going into debt to sign a couple of players doesn't even come into the equation. Just a commitment from the board to spend the money on backing the manager and the team and not on 'other operating expenses'.

Just because we have young players does not mean that they are good enough to play in the first team; I was at Fulham when Vellios last started and he looked way out of his depth. His scoring record for the U21s this year is pretty poor and I can't see how he would deserve a place ahead of Anichebe.

If the youth players are performing superbly in training or reserve matches, then by all means give them some game time; I hope Barkley and McAleny will be rewarded for their efforts, but there's no point in playing youngsters until they have deserved it.

Don't worry about how much we'd have to pay for him though, when they're back in the Championship we'll get him on a Bosman.

BTW how much do you think it would cost to buy back Vaughan who we also sold to Norwich?

Watch the West Brom Away game last season. Minute 66, Moyes disputes a yellow card with the 4th official and says to him, and I quote, you are 'as cold as ice'.

Fast forward 2 months, Moyes sipping and enjoying a half of good mild with, as you might expect, ready salted crisps in The Brooke on Brooke Road (he apparently likes the little patio there and has modelled his own conservatory on the back of the Brooke), and swaying in his seat with Roundy and Dave Prentice, all with ciggy lighters held in the air, singing with feeling: "I wanna know what love is".

A unanimous guilty verdict, I think.

You asked which other players had gone onto better things, I gave you an example of a keeper who didn't get a lookin with us and is now a premier league regular because he's been given a sustained role in a side. If norwich get relgated it'll have nothing to do with Ruddy who was their player of the season recently....so I doubt we'll get him on a free, and I also doubt he'd come back to us either.

We got a fee for vaughan - any fee was decent given his injury issues. What fee will we get for Neville who soaks up £50k / week of the clubs money? We'll probably get fuck all for naismith too and he wont be cheap.

You talk about the TV money for next season. Is this the same tv money that Moyes wanted the club to borrow against in the January transfer window to secure his signature?

I believe that BK is incompetent as a club chairman, but I don't think his hand is in the till and I know of no evidence or serious allegations to that effect. Of course, we all know that you can borrow money and there is no interest to pay. We don't have to pay agents fees, and basically running a large business like a football club has no associated costs. Therefore "other operating expenses" must be bill and his associates taking money out, right?

Sam, Anichebe showed us what he was capable of in europe several seasons ago. He's obviously got his head sorted a bit more now as he's older and he's also being played as a centre forward too, not stuck out on the right wing most of the time. Anichebe has always seemed particularly immature for his age, so in that case I do agree that waiting has been worthwhile. That said, he was still given game time to develop, unlike Barkley or Duffy.

Mucha showed us what a capable goalie he was a few weeks back - and he'll never play for us again - and Coleman is showing us what a good full-back he is. I think there are a few other players like Duffy, Barkley and possibly Stones who given a fair crack of the whip ahead of the likes of Hetinga, Neville, Naismith would also do really well.

If you think that keeping Duffy or Barkley playing ressie football for 2 seasons is necessary in the same way as for Anichebe we'll have to agree to disagree. Sure they'd make mistakes and cost us goals, but so do the experienced pro's....except the younger players are cheap, will improve and have re-sale value too.

Alongside Oviedo, his lack of game time has been inexplicable, all the more so considering Neville and Osman had very poor patches where they clearly needed to be rotated out of the side.

Your whole premise is that we develop youth and sell them for a profit. Yet your (only) shining example we actually sold for a loss.

Or you are saying that we are holding back world class youth that will set the world alight, again which doesn't stack up when looking at the teams our youth players have gone to.

So we won't get any money for Neville, but what has he been worth to the team in the years he's been with us? More than the fee we got for Vaughan for sure, and do you think Vaughan is better off now than if he'd stayed with us? Do you even know where he is?