Chris, I think that's a great idea... but I'm struggling to see how your new and radical plan is really any different from "business as usual"? I mean, when all said and done, "use youth" rests on one crucial phrase...

"...if they are good enough..."

Anyone will tell you that, if they are good enough, they make it; if they are not — and the incredibly vast majority are not — they fall by the wayside.

You talk of 'repeating the same cycle every 5 years' — what cycle is that? It's more an irregular injection of new blood that improves the team (some do, some don't) combined with the elevation of youth players — if they're good enough (very very few are; most aren't).

There have been plenty of posts explaining the problem our youth are having: they cannot make the huge leap up to the Premier League when it is more fashionable for managers to look overseas and bring in more and more and more foreign players.

Of your list above,I suspect we have seen the last of Vellios and Gueye and probably Junior and McAleny, too!

I think they all played in that fateful game at Leeds when Moyes set out to prove his cupboard was bare!

Harry Catterick introduced youngsters into his teams in small doses, when the older players were there to help bed them in

Harvey, Husband, Royle, West, Whittle, Steven et al were surrounded by some or all of Labone, Wilson, Young, Morrissey, Vernon, Harris etc

HK brought Steven in to learn the ropes with Reid & Co to support him

It's a sensible model, bring youngsters into a team playing well and/or with a strong base of established players, as an aid to their learning and devlopment - some fly eventually, some will crash

Has Moyes been in a position to ever do that? I wonder, as time (especially 11 unspectacular years of it), dims the memory

Phil... Catterick also had MONEY to spend and bought lots of players both good and bad. In those days, the playing fields were equal and no foreign players came to the old First Division. The manager had just homegrown British players and we had reserve teams if anyone was coming back from injury or out of form. There were no subs and later just one utility man like sandy Brown or other.

Teams without spending power actually won the league, eg, Ipswich. That is why I prefer the old First Division situation, there was much more even competition and I actually often bet on Everton winning a trophy or title because there was a chance of it happening.

Liverpool dominated the league and won European Championships without foreign players and we won our trophy in the same way... Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea and Spurs were nowhere.

MONEY has made our Premier League so lopsided it's beginning to look like the SFA. At least 16 clubs just make up the numbers and provide cannon fodder for the money teams. Survival is the most many can strive for.

I reckon £ for £ we are the best in the league !!!!

You've got to say Moyes at least has attempted to bring young players through. Osman, Hibbert, Vaughan, Anichebe, Rooney, Rodwell all given good opportunities with the first team. Coleman (altough he was bought) has been integrated well and it looks as though perhaps Barkley is finally getting more time. The difference is that Barcelona's youth ranks had Messi, Busquets and Pedro in it as well as Xavi and Iniesta previously. Our youth is nowhere near that level and this is a reflection on the entire league. Most clubs have had roughly one superb talent coming out of their academy which could be put down to natural talent seeing as they're not followed up by others. The conveyor belts of Spain and Germany have not yet been built here. Liverpool got Gerrard, we got Rooney, Blackburn Phil Jones, Arsenal Wilshere, Newcastle Carrol, Chelsea Terry. Its only really Man U and Southampton that have produced a lot formt heir academy, and Man U only had the one good batch, nothing since.

I really don't think our youth policy in comparison to the rest of the league is that bad. Moyes's reent investment in Kennedy and Stones also shows that he does see its importance. The players in your list may make it one day Chris but not many of them would improve the current team right now. Moyes as shown with his handling of Anichebe, Vaughan, Coleman, Rodwell and Gosling that if the squad is lackingn and he considers them good enough he will play them and sometimes in the first team even on european nights. If they're not good enough thoug, or the injuries are not too bad he won't play them and this seems to be the policy of the majority of premier league managers for better or worse.

If the youth players were really that good then Championship clubs would be clambering over themselves to get them in on loan (as in the case of Barkley) and we would then get to see how they perform at the nearest level to the Premier League. Till then its too risky.

Look at the likes of Wilshere and Cleverly who did not break into the Arsenal and Man Utd teams until they had already had significant Premier League experience with Bolton and Wigan.

Sadly at this time it appears Barkley is the only one of our youngsters really close to stepping up. Unless loan offers have come in for players deemed necessary back-up which may possibly be the case for Duffy and at a push Vellios.

what I meant to say was that there should be a focus over the course of 5 years to integrate young players into the playing squad. If they sink or swim it is up to them but by not playing them at all we will never know. Take for example Baxter, when he came on against Man City, it was clear he was probably not the same exciting youngster he was at 16-17. We are built on team spirit under Moyes and it would really help if we didn't have a reserve team and first team so to speak, but a bunch of players who can integrate and potentially play for their seniors place in the team. I am not trying to say Garbutt, Gueye, Lumstrum etc are world class players, nor am I saying that they are even good enough for the team at all. I mean Barkley was sat on the bench for 3 months doing nothing until he was played and he proved he was actually any good. Him giving Osman a rest earlier after Leeds might have led us to still be in the hunt for 4th. The youngsters should all be given that oppertunity, otherwise they will all decide to follow baxter out the door at the promise of first team football whilst we continue to play the same players year after year and the 'cycle' ends up being an aging squad again and again.

By the way I never typed homegrown and poor scottish, clever editing there by the editor! I meant to say 11 good quality players like Baines rather than 11 bargain but not quite good enough naismiths.

They're not good enough. Simple.

Trevor
Lot of truth in what you say (still hurts, though, to think we are merely struggling to head the 2nd tier iof the PL)
Harry and, to a greater extent, Shankly/Paisley bought from a position of strength, as you recall - no emotion, no sentiment; if there was a better player available to improve any position, they tried to get them in

How we move forward as a club will depend on the ambition of the board. If Moyes does go (which I think is highly unlikely) then the board should apoint a manager who has a successfull track history of bringing through young players and someone highly sought after, someone like the Dortmund boss.

Surely there are top managers wanting to manage in the Premier League who would take Moyes's salary and a half-decent transfer pot, and that half decent transfer pot shouldn't be a problem with the extra money next season and the inevitable player sales?

I would like to see a new manager give the youth a chance and reward good performances with another game, not to cast them aside to be forgoten about for half a season. But more than anything I want to see a manager that doesn't work on percentages, someone who has his teams attack and not just hard to beat. In fairness we've played some good football this season but as allways when there's a sign of a good creative team we revert back to type, the Moyes way.

Of course everything I've mentioned is irrelevant as Moyes will still be here, he'll get a decent transfer budget for once, he'll buy some decent players which will limit the amount of chances for the youth as when these new players get injured or are not on form they will be replaced by longer serving, less talented players (his favourites), we'll go into the big games with a white flag, most games will be low scoring, tight affairs, we'll end up around 5th or 6th with maybe a few more points as we'll slightly improve but as all the other clubs currently above us will strengthen we won't make much difference in the league.

After the season passes and Moyes has spent his half decent transfer pot and is well into his new 5 year deal it will be back to selling players and receiving a small percentage of the proceeds and you just know Kenright is going to have that "I understand your pain" look all over his face when he's sitting in the stands.

If miracles do happen and Moyes goes,this board should be looking at people who they think might be out of there league,whats the worst that can happen? they'll just say no.I'm sure the dented pride of any future manager after hearing he was low down on the list would soon mend after they start getting the support from the terraces and who knows,maybe someone like the Dortmund boss might say yes.

It sounds all very idealistic, but asking high numbers of youth from the NW or cheap Vellios punts to compete in 'the the best league in the world' is not going to happen in a transfer heavy competition.

I'm sure Barca, Milan and Bayern etc have all done an Arsenal and creamed off the best of other clubs' youth.

Hibbert, Osman, Anichebe... no more derided Evertonians than these home growners.

I'd love youth to get its chance but Moyes won't change his spots at this stage. Cheltenham away in the FA cup was a perfect chance to at least play Duffy or Vellios and others but he went with the tried and tested.

What signal does that send out to young players if the manager doesn't trust him against league two opposition?

As for giving Rooney a chance I'm not having that, if memory serves me right he was left on the bench for long periods of time even with him being an England regular. Then towards the end of season he was placed firmly in the shop window for all the vultures to see. I hope I'm wrong but I think that's why we are beginning to see more of Barkley.

Noel, Moyes tried the youth in one cup and the results were disastrous. Can you blame him for not wanting a repeat?

Nick, why are these homegrowners derided? I think they are three decent players and, in my view, we should have a bit of patience with any lad who comes through the youth system.

I know this is off topic but do have a look at the article "How Neville Southall won the Player of the Year award in the 1984-85 season" from the Guardian in the Around The Web section , bottom left, of the ToffeeWeb home page. And watch the Youtube Links contained within. This is just in case you missed it. Wonderful.

Sam, did Moyes really "try youth" in the cup?

Vellios? Barkley? McAleny? Duffy? Junior? All of those players failed, right?

I'll be honest that I couldn't quite remember the full line up, so I went back and checked:

01 Mucha
05 Heitinga Booked
15 Distin
23 Coleman
08 Oviedo Booked
25 Fellaini Booked
30 Francisco Junior (Neville - 46' )
11 Mirallas
14 Naismith (Jelavic - 65' )
19 Gueye (Pienaar - 46' )
28 Anichebe

Gueye has been given decent chance in the first team over the years and not really done much, so I can accept that he's not good enough.

Oviedo had recently moved to this league and has had almost fuck all from Moyes before and since this game but has shown some good ability when I've seen him in very brief cameos. Why he's not been played more is beyond me.

Naismith has been shit in every game, with the exception of his pre-season debut, yet that doesn't stop him seemingly being given numerous chances from the sub's bench ahead of the likes of Barkley and McAleny and Oveido. Same for heitinga who has been awful, yet Duffy can't get a sniff.

Anyway, it seems the team at leeds was a mix of youth and experience and it failed...and it failed because of the youth? Well, we were 1-0 down within a few minutes. It stayed like that till half time when captain pip and Pienaar replaced a few of the youngsters. Then Jelavic replaced Naismith.

So after we had our experienced side on, we did better of course....

Well, according to the match report we managed to concede again, before a scoring a late goal, so it seems our experienced side minus virtually all the younger players were still too shit to beat a side two divisions below.

Truth is, occasionally we are shit when other teams want the win more. Recent games at sunderland and wigan are testament to that. It happens when we play our "full strength" side and it happens if we chuck some younger players in. You and Moyes can lay the blame at "youth" and the players not being good enough, but its not the truth.

To be honest I sometimes wonder if Moyes sets players like Barkley up to fail. Not good enough to get near the first team for 2 years, then all of a sudden deemed good enough to play away at spurs and away at arsenal. Part of me wonders if Moyes expected us to lose those games and chucked Barkley in to show everyone why he was right to say he's not ready. But then, I'm quite a cynical person.

In reality Barkley didn't look vastly out of place and showed he was a good player when played against two very talented teams....but I'm sure that's how youth player development works. You play your most inexperienced players against the best teams in the league, preferably at their place. This allows them to improve. When they've learned the trade against the best, they can be tried against the lesser teams in the league.

Chris, in response to your idea, I think the general jist is correct, but I suspect that most of the players listed are simply not good enough to make the grade.

For every home-grown youngster, we probably are going to require 1 or 2 bought in players such as Mirallas who have proven ability and are a bit further along in their development.

However, I will say that for me, the jury is still out on most, if not all of the players you mentioned. Most of the players listed simply have not been given sufficient opportunity to show if they can make it. Gueye is an exception who has been given time by Moyes as a sub over the years and has looked very, very average.

In that respect, I disagree with Michael and a few others. Players do make it only if they're good enough....but if they're good enough and not given a chance, they wont make it either.

Given the lucrative millions at stake for retaining PL status, youth will never be risked against the 'tried and trusted'. I can only remember Man Utd blooding all the youngsters back in 95', but they were a damm good group of players. We have produced one great player from our youth set up in the last 20 years...that says it all!

Andy, just a reflection of comments on these pages. Hibbert I've always been a fan of... mainly when the opposition have the ball. Osman I can take or leave, and if Vic has had his Redbull then he's fantastic - only not often enough.

Well I'll take and leave Osman if you want Nick... Where to?

Kunal, its a false economy not to use your youth players.

We could get rid of heitinga, pocket £5M and save about £3m / season in wages, put duffy as backup centre back and buy some cheaper cover as 4th choice.

I'm not sure how much is at stake for each league place this year(750k?), but if you have 2-3 wasters in your team on high wages like Heitinga, Neville and Naismith, then its probably costing the club about £10M / season, which I reckon is worth about 10-15 places in cash terms.

You don't need to take it to the extent that villa have done where they've loads of youngsters and are risking their PL status, but I think there is a middle ground to be had where we might finish mid-table or slightly worse, but will be better off in the long term.

Thats not to count the countless millions we get if those young players come in, do well and can be sold for a small fortune. The injury prone Rodwell, and the shite Jeffers we both got great money for entirely on their potential.

Wayne Smyth for President. That is all.

I agree with you in principal but we will need to recruit because half of those players you mention are complete rubbish. The likes of Gueye and Vellios won't make it at this level. Stones and Barkley would be nice to see come through more. Junior has talent too but we need to bring players in

Phil #613, a 16 year old Jo Royle was a lot better than Velios is ever going to be.

I have the feeling our academy is slowly starting to produce better players and although no expert on this I wouldn't be surprised to see more of our youngsters getting 1st team opportunities over the next few years. Barkley is already good enough, whilst the likes of Lundstram, Garbutt, Browning and Stones are England U19 internationals. From what little I've seen of Kennedy, and also Chris Long, they look to be decent technical players so I wouldn't be surprised to see them either. Then there are George Green and Ryan Ledson who are both England internationals also. Hallam Hope also seems to get a lot of mentions. I think what is important is that they get more loans to championship and league 1 clubs. Maybe if Baxter had been loaned out earlier he might have developed differently. I think Everton as a club have been quite slow to loan out good young players.

Wayne Smith...Spot on

I've seen enough of Gueye to know he doesn't have a future at Everton nor in the Premier League. it's impossible to judge Barkley until he gets a run of consecutive games. Far too much hope seems to be going on these youngsters.

From past averages, I reckon only 2 or 3 from the list above will be playing first team football in 5 years time in the Premier League (and not necessarily for Everton).

Wayne Smith, you are absolutely correct.

Given that we can't compete in the transfer market with the likes of Stoke and Sunderland, let alone the Top Five, then being shrewd and investing in youth is the only way to go.

It might be a case of one step backwards in the short term, and slipping down the table, but by carefully easing out the big earners, then the two steps forward should come in a few years time, as the youngsters mature.

To this end, we must cash in Fellaini this summer, whilst his stock is at its highest. Yes, he might be our most important player, but the twofold benefit of a huge transfer fee AND getting the biggest salary off our books is vital to long-term progress.

Fellaini has been discussed ad nauseum on these pages, but his departure would improve the performances of both Barkley and Jelavic in my opinion, and also change our style of play for the better, assuming that we introduce player(s) with pace as replacements.

Just to add, hindsight is a wonderful thing, so not many of us were calling for Heitinga to be sold last summer, as he was basking in the warm glow of being named the Everton Player of the Season.

It's a risk, and maybe selling our best player every season for top dollar would be unacceptable to the majority of fans, but what other options do we have ?

Wayne, don't get me wrong I agree with a lot of what you've said there - but there is a caveat.

You say the players haven't been given sufficient opportunity to prove themselves, but I assume you mean prove themselves to you, rather than to the paid professionals who pick the team? The team obviously isn't picked as a democratic process where the fans pick the players they want, if the management don't believe a player looks good enough in training/reserves etc they won't get picked. It's down to them to show they can do it, not down to the manager to just throw them in and see.

If - for example - McAleny goes on to have a good top flight or even Championship career then I will agree completely that questions need to be asked about why he hasn't been used, but if he goes on to have a career like Kieron Agard, Nick Chadwick or Phil Jevons then I'd have to say Moyes was right, and it's unlikely that he would have made any impact on our fortunes even as a late sub.

Oviedo is a strange one. I know a lot of people seem to rate him highly on here, and I certainly expected him to feature more this year, but personally I've been distinctly underwhelmed when I've seen him on the wing. Maybe he's more of a left back and not playing because of Baines quality and durability.

Richard #651 "a successfull track history of bringing through young players and someone highly sought after, someone like the Dortmund boss."

Isn't there a difference between having 'young highly sought after players' in your team and having Anichebe and Velios?

Silk purses and sows ears spring to mind.

Jimmy, I think you give too much credit to "professionals" to make those kind of judgements, but football management is effectively a closed shop....and footballers are not the brightest bunch from which to pick managers. The fact that managers like Mark Hughes get continually re-employed is testament to how incestouous it all is.

We'd all like to believe that Moyes is some genius, who'll get the best out of every player at the club. In truth he's probably similar to managers in every other walk of life. He has favourites and people who rub him up the wrong way. Some players will always play shit and come out smelling of roses(Neville and anyone who is scottish), and some players make one mistake and they'll never be allowed to forget it.

I'll accept that I, personally, am almost certainly worse than Moyes as a judge of a footballer. However, I find it difficult to believe that if 20,000 people think a youngster is deserving of a chance and 1 guy disagrees, that the 20,000 are wrong. I'll put money on the majority any day.

Even managers disagree with managers. How many times does a new manager take over and start playing fringe players that never got a look in under the old regime? Sometimes those players play really well, when they were awful for the previous manager.

Lets discuss Seamus Coleman. Moyes persisted with him at right wing for 2 reasons:

1) He didn't have a right winger
2) He didn't have the confidence in the player to play him at right back.

Some of his performances at right wing started to get average to say the least. He's got some attacking skills, but at RW your main job is to create and get forward and he's no right winger. You could have fully understood Moyes if when Mirallas turned up, he left Seamus on the bench for a bit.

When Moyes hand was forced by Hibberts injury, Moyes was forced to go against his better judgement and give him a go at right back. I think we can all agree that the lad has done exceptionally well and now I think most of us would be angry if hibbert came back as our 1st choice RB.

I'm sure we've got lots of players like Coleman at the club. If they were given a run in the side in their natural position we might allow them to reach their potential. I'm convinced that Barkley has been held back in his development by lack of opportunity. Same for Duffy. Both of those had shown enough during the limited first team time they were given a few years ago to be given a little more time on the pitch.

McAleny showed more in 10 minutes at Arsenal 18 months ago, than the first team striker he replaced(saha?).

I think when you give opportunities to young players and they do well, you need a damn good reason to suddenly stop them from getting any more chances. Its not just about the individuals, but from the clubs perspective they are potentially valuable assets. We can either let them rot in the reserves or try to actually make them into a valuable player.

Wayne smith, yes he did try the youth in the league cup. That does not mean that he played only the youth players but sensibly bedded them in with some more experienced pros. Many Twebbers have said that in fact it was too much of a youth or reserve team. Either way it didn't work, I'm not saying that was specifically the young players fault though I don't remember many of them covering themselves in glory. The point is that at that point he decided to play his strongest team possible for the FA cup and even though I too would like to see the younger players get a chance I can see the reasoning behind his thinking. Perhaps you cannot.

Sam, in a world where we need to develop our young players to survive, I can't agree with his sidelining the 50% of the squad that has the most potential to improve.... all based on the outcome of one game where only a few of them played.

If we were a rich club that could go out and buy ready-made 1st teamers, I could more understand where he was coming from, but we're skint and we need to work better with what little we have.

I'll ask you this: why have players like Naismith and Heitinga who played that night and have also been really awful when given other first team opportunities not had the same treatment as the fringe players, like Oviedo?

I can't remember the detail of the game at leeds, but according to the match report their first goal involved their striker skipping past fellaini and our two centre backs(distin/heitinga). Hardly the fault of our younger players, is it?

If you accept it was not "specifically" the young players fault we lost that night, why do you think it reasonable that he ignore them for the next 12 months based on the 45 minutes of football they played?

Why do youth players need to "cover themselves in glory" to deserve get another chance, whereas experienced players can chalk one up to a bad night at the office? Surely the experienced pro's should be leading by example?

I think we should be more accepting of mistakes and bad performances from younger players, yet some people(including our manager) seem to require them to do more than a 1st team regular in order to justify themselves.

Finally, perhaps if Moyes was willing to rotate the non-performers out of his squad, the team might look a little more hungry for success when they do get the opportunity.

Wayne, I'm not suggesting that he should or even has ignored them only that I can see the logic in him playing what he thinks is his best 11.

I also see and agree with your argument that with our financial position we need to be brining youngsters through. Sadly though history dictates that very few of them will actually end up playing in the top leagues. Underwhelming as they have been this season Naismith and Heitinga are experienced international players and senior members of Moyes squad and I suppose for that reason he trusts them above the mostly untested youngsters.

A very passionate argument for better utilisation of Everton's youth on this thread by Wayne Smythe. 100% agree with you, Sir. Nothing more to add.

The article begins with the question "How can we genuinely move forward as a club?".

Answer: find a way to increase revenues relative to other clubs.

So, youth policy alone would result (if successful) in selling more players. Or Everton find a way to get a new stadium, or to increase commercial revenues from merchandise.

I agree with Joe Green, but on a case-by-case basis:

Duffy — Will be in the team within 18 months

Stones — Has a great chance, but cost £3million, so can hardly be seen as a youth player.

Vellios — If he couldn't get in this year, with Jelavic's form he never will: sell.

Barkley — A key part of the match-day squad from next season, if not the team.

Junior — Technically good, but lacks physical stature; may end up being a late developer and we should stick with him... he could be another Osman.

Kennedy — Another who cost a fair whack of money. Has a good chance of breaking through in an area where it is not easy to find top quality for our budget.

Garbutt — Has the unerring prospect of getting past Baines into our 1st team. I think if Baines goes for a hefty sum in the next 18 months or so, then Garbutt has a chance; otherwise, he may go elsewhere.

Lundstram — Another season on loan next year, possibly at a Championship club, then a season in the 21s. We won't see much of him for a couple of years.

Bidwell — Will go permanently this summer.

McAleny — Had a rough time with injuries this term; but he has come along way in the last 2 years and I think the club have one eye on him. If he can maintain his rate of development for another season at U21 level, we could have a little surprise on our hands.

Gueye — Will go this summer. Has showed tiny spurts of promise, but not enough. Time to cash in and cut our losses.

Alasdair, from what I've seen I agree with those assessments though, as I understand it, Stones cost about £500k that will only become £3M if he becomes a first team regular and gets England caps etc.

Another one worth mentioning is Tyias Browning who has been part of a very solid U21 defense recently and is also playing for England now at youth level. Probably a couple of years off but one with definite potential and able to play anywhere across the back four.

Sam, I think its fairly clear he has ignored many of the fringe players. I'm fairly sure that's irrefutable, regardless of whether you would suggest it, or not. The facts bear out that he uses the same players game after game (I think we've used fewest players of any club in the league), and he's also admitted that he's actively looked to play his best players wherever possible. So we should probably just accept that as fact and move on to the consequences of doing so.

After his first team showing a few seasons back, Duffy has more than deserved more first team time. He looked calm and assured. Heitinga is an experienced international, world-cup final playing centre half as you say. Does he play like it when he's been in the team? No. Naismith is also an experienced, international player, but has he ever played like it? No. Don't performances matter any more? Does it take a broken leg to prevent one of Moyes favourites from getting in the squad? It seems so.

If those experienced players come in and do well, then we can see the justification for side-lining the younger players. But I think they come in and they play worse than the younger players they are keeping out of the squad. Not only that, but they're not likely to get much better and they're costing the club a fortune to keep on the books.

For a club with no money, we cannot afford to employ a manager who has no faith in the academy players and gives them incredibly limited opportunities as a result. We can't afford to buy ready-made first teamers any more, despite Moyes blackmailing the club to borrow more money to let him spend.

Wayne, you are confusing ignoring for not using. Yes, he has not used the fringe players as much as he might but my assertion is that that is because has analysed their abilities at great length and decided that they do not have as much to offer or are not ready. That is not the same as failing to consider them simply that after consideration they don't match up.

In terms of performances I do agree with what you are saying. I find it strange that Heitinga and Naismith received continued playing time despite some poor performances. However, like it or not, we have seen incredibly little of the likes of Duffy, Oviedo etc compared to Moyes who see's them every day and clearly there is something that gives him cause to doubt them. Performances do matter but Moyes see's far more of their performances (in training, youth and reserve matches) than we do.

There are also considerably more complicated factors at play here and I think it's a bit over simplistic to ask, "Why does he not play the youth more?" — even if I do in fact agree with the sentiment.

Sam I'm not confusing ignoring for not using. I just happen to believe Moyes is actively sidelining them because for some reason he has an ingrained issue trusting younger or inexperienced players, regardless of their actual performances.

Let me ask you a question: If all you had to base a decision on, was 1st team performances you've seen, would you have given Duffy, Barkley and Oviedo more game time during the last couple of years?

The reason I ask, is that the performance playing for the first team is all that concerns me.

The stuff that goes on behind the scenes I don't know about and I don't care about. I don't care if they're shit trainers, or are crap playing for the ressies. In the same vein, I don't care if Jelavic doesn't work hard, track back or run channels provided he scores 20 / season. However, Moyes seems to hold a lot of stock in these non-critical things.

Wayne, I don't think that's really the case. I'm not just taking Moyes' word for it, and here's why.

The point i'm making is how many of these 20,000 people you mention have actually seen the lads play? Many of them just say someone should be given a chance for the sake of it, because 'they can't be any worse' - despite the fact that they most certainly can be worse. If you need any proof of that watch the young Watford keeper's debut today! Many of these opinions, therefore, are completely irrelevant as they are based solely on hearsay and reputation.

You used the example of Gueye earlier. 18 months ago those 20,000 people were saying he should be playing but how many would agree now that they've actually seen him? Baxter was another one who people wanted in, but it wasn't just Moyes who didn't think he was up to it yet was it? He was available on a free but where did he end up? At a team battling relegation from League 1.

This is one of the key points in this issue. Taking Barkley for example, Moyes, Warnock and Pearce all seem to have felt he wasn't pulling up any trees this season, and if we're being honest I think most people would say his performances this year have been 'ok' rather than hugely impressive (even taking into account his age). Duffy signed a new contract with Everton a couple of months back, do you think he would have done that if he was inundated with offers from Premiership clubs who wanted him as a first team regular? It's easy to think it's just Moyes who's not giving them a chance but the facts don't back it up. When we let a 18/19 year old go and they go on to bigger and better - or even equivalent - things then it will suggest Moyes is the problem. The fact that it hasn't happened at all in 11 years gives me no reason to think he's got any problems with youth.

Moyes has given chances to a few young lads but not many of them have fully grasped it. The likes of Gueye, Gosling, Vaughan, Anichebe are often forgotten in this argument because the impact they've had hasn't been great in most cases but they were all given opportunities, including in the biggest games.

Jimmy, I don't think Moyes needs to make any of those players first team regulars, that would be irresponsible.

However, I am saying that not giving some of those players ANY playing time over the course of a season is also equivalently wrong. How are they meant to develop and improve if they are not given opportunities? Especially when they've done well when put into the side.

We've all seen Duffy, Barkley, McAleny and Oviedo play some football the last few years, so for those players there are concrete performances to judge them on.

Jimmy Kelly - That's a good point.

The only example of a player released by Moyes's Everton who is currently impressing at Prem level is Callum McManaman, who may sneak onto our bench at the moment, but you can't see him getting past Pienaar or Mirallas into our team.

I think Baxter turned down a new contract at Everton and a couple of Championship clubs to get first team football at Oldham, in fairness to him. The general consensus is that he has been outstanding for Oldham all season and is probably good enough for a Championship first-team by now. James Wallace is another to look out for. Same scenario, really and I think he is Tranmere captain.

Oh - and Hope Akpan, who was doing well at Reading and will probably be a fixture for them at Champ. level next season.

Hopefully those players will go on to have good careers Alasdair, and I hope they do end up in the premier league at some point. I do like to keep an eye out for players who came through the ranks and wish them all the best.

McManaman looks a real talent to be fair, but the fact that he didn't make his debut for Wigan until 5 years after he joined them suggests he must have been a really late bloomer, which there's not much you can do about.

Baxter was offered a new contract by us, but not sure about Championship clubs. I know some of the coaches at Palace where he had a trial pre-season and by all accounts they weren't too impressed with him.

Wayne, I don't quite understand. If he does not take training, reserve matches into account then how are any of the youth players meant to get a game in the first place? Is he just meant to replace any underperforming first teamer with a name out of the hat youngster?

Moyes job is to pick the players he best feels will get the results. He has far more information and insight than us to make those decisions. I'm sure he does not always get it right but you can be damn sure that he has considered the possibilities and made was he believes to be the most effective choice.

Jimmy, do you think Coleman would have got a chance at right back without the injury to Hibbert? I don't . and frankly, that makes me wonder about Moyes. I believe if Duffy had been given his chance ahead of the out of form Heitinga we may possibly have been serious champions league contenders.

I admire Phil Neville but the ultra cautious Moyes was picking him when he was long past it. We hear a lot on this site that Moyes sees them in training and therefore knows best. Well, Neville must have been training like Pele.

Sam, I can think of numerous reasons why a young footballer might stagnate in the reserves in the same way as any player might not develop properly or play well if played in an unfamiliar role.

It's not that Moyes shouldn't be considering the reserve games, but I think that any performances for the first team should count for far more when judging whether a player deserves more game time. Some players might really thrive when playing around better players, for example, or playing well for the first team will give them the confidence boost to improve because they have the belief they can play at the top level alongside players they've always looked up to.

The point I was making is that some of these younger players have already played for the first team against high-quality opposition and done really, really well. Why would you then side-line them for years without giving them another opportunity to get experience against quality opposition and improve?

What would you do if you were shane duffy and got an opportunity to play a first team game because of injuries to a few of the first team squad, come in and play as well, if not better than the more experienced centre half. Then all of a sudden you get dropped and can't get any more first team action for years?

Personally if I were him I'd be searching for some scottish family history. Heitinga has played really, really badly when given first team opportunities and Duffy still can't get a sniff. Thats a kick in the bollocks to young players at the club when first team players perform so consistently awful and still Moyes refuses to give younger players who've done well previously a chance.

Sam, do you think Moyes has done anything wrong in the last 11 years?

What's his biggest failing in your opinion, if so?

What's interesting about Duffy is that he has recently been excelling alongside both Tyias Browning and John Stones for the U21s. Both these guys are RB/CBs, so they naturally would be playing on the right side of the two CBs. Meaning that Duffy has been doing well as a left-sided CB.

Moyes has always preferred having naturally-footed centre-backs when possible (Lescott and Distin both being left-footed), so I wonder if this is what is holding Duffy back? He is only competing for one position, not two, and in that role he is up against Jags and Heitinga.

Maybe now he has proved his ability to play well on the "wrong" side he will become second choice behind Distin for that role?

Wayne, I think Moyes's biggest failing is his cautiousness and related to that his unwilling to make changes when the tide has turned until a a goal has been conceded. On the one hand, it may also be this cautiousness that has gleaned us more points where a more gung ho approach would have failed. It's difficult to know.

I do think that a reluctance to play the youth is a fair criticism that stems from this cautionary approach but equally I don't think it is nearly as simple as lots of people have stated.

In the case of Duffy for example, he had a couple of good games in his very short spell but he is incredibly young and inexperienced for a Premier League centre back. Even though Heitinga has been shocking at times he is one of our three senior centre backs in a small squad and perhaps Moyes felt that he should be allowed to play himself back into form (which to an extent he did). If Duffy had been superb in the reserves and in training really looked ready for the Premier League then perhaps he would have been given a chance; my guess is that he didn't.

I'm genuinely not even saying that I want the likes of Heitinga in the team or that I think Moyes is actually right, only that I think the situation is complex and I can believe there are valid reasons for doing this.

I do agree with you when you say the youth should be given more experience and that we will come to rely on some of them but equally, in the tough, results-driven business of football, Moyes cannot afford to risk matches on players that he thinks may not be good enough or ready. Even the likes of Wenger and Ferguson have only integrated the likes of wilshere and Cleverly after successful loans at other Premier League clubs.

I a good point made in the article. Just a point about Dortmund as a comparison. Really like the club, but if you look at their first team all but Gotze have been purchased, mainly from other German clubs. The model isn't simply taking players from Westphalia and putting them in the first team. We should be looking to develop our best players but also picking up those overlooked from other clubs. I'm thinking of players like Scott Sinclair, Ibrahim from City, and the striker from city who is pulling up trees in Holland. On our budget you have to be one step ahead. These sort of players, coupled with intelligent signings from abroad, (how did we miss out on Benteke?)

Sam, I'm actually starting to warm to you! I think you're right, one of Moyes' biggest failings is his cautiousness, which then translates to dithering, negativity etc. etc.

If he actually grew a pair and kept them, I think he actually could be a great manager instead of just a good one. Can he do it? I don't think so, Leopards don't change there spots I'm afraid, and when push comes to shove, he'll revert to type, IMHO.

Agree with you Robbie. Read Sam's points and he is spot on. How many column inches have been spent discussing Aston Villa's defensive frailties stemming from the number of 'kids' playing there? You have to be realistic. Duffy looks solid but you don't see the teams above us playing kids at centre half. Heitinga was really good last year, he has talent. I make no apologies for preferring him over Duffy. I don't agree that any manager can be so blinkered to totally disregard the idea of youth. Maybe he is conservative, and yes that is a criticism, but he does see more of the players than any of us.

Mark, just because Moyes sees more of the players than us doesn't necessarily mean he has better judgement.

Moyes never gets it wrong, he is always 100% correct. His team selection is always spot on. Why the man is derided so much is a complete and utter mystery to me. We are never going to find anyone capable of doing the job he does.

The football is now a joy to watch although I agree in other seasons it was a little hard on the eye. His record speaks for itself. CL qualifications, FA Cup final, Semis, the best of the rest, finishing above the R/S and well on course to do it again twice in a row first time since the end of the WW2. It's the best crop of players since the 80s... [Well, if you're reading this and think I'm taking the piss, you're not wrong.]

Andy,I'm not sure what the case would be with Coleman to be honest.

It's clear that Moyes has always seen him becoming a full back, I assume that's why he bought him to start with, he made his first few appearances there, was loaned to a team who would play him there and played there extensively in friendlies, but whether he would have got ahead of Hibbert this season I don't know. In fairness, I thought Hibbert was excellent last year so I wouldn't have felt it was imperative he was replaced. It's also worth noting that Coleman has been preferred to Neville there, and he could have moved Jags there if he wanted so it's not as though it was forced on him.

I don't disagree at all about Neville but it is important to note in these discussions that I'm not suggesting Moyes doesn't make mistakes in his general team selection, clearly he does. It's just the fact that Neville/Heitinga or whoever is not playing well does not necessarily mean that a raw kid who may well end up playing League 1 or 2 for the majority of their career would be an improvement.

Sam I think most of your points are sensible. However, I think it unhelpful to compare our situation with the teams ahead of us. We do not have the resources of the richest 5 or 6 teams in the league.

Those guys can go out and have huge youth squads and large first team squads full of talented players. Their academy players are generally of a higher standard and hence they will be of sufficient quality to get them straight into other PL clubs.

Our club has limited resources and our youth players are not at the same level. Ours mainly head to the lower league clubs for their initial first team experience. Using the example of villa(as some have done) is also not helpful. Their squad has probably too many youngsters and they have risked their league status as a result. Giving Duffy or Barkley 10 half-hour substitute appearances over a season is not the same as chucking him in to all 38 PL games, and surrounding him with other inexperienced players.

Where I also disagree is that when you have someone like duffy who comes into the squad and plays well and does nothing wrong, I think you need a very good reason to drop them for such an extensive period of time. You can have doubts about a player's ability before they play, but if they come in and do a good job then I think you need to have the backbone to let them carry on until their actual performances give cause for concern.

You mention that football is results driven, and that is true to an extent. However, in cash terms there is not a lot to choose between 6th and 10th. Personally I'd rather be mid-table, have no debt and have a team full of promising home-grown players, rather than attempt to be playing the rich clubs at their own game(spending money) and getting annoyed, because they will always have more money than us and be able to chase a better quality of player.

Wayne, fair enough. I think we are more or less close to agreement and your arguments are well made. I do hope to see more of Duffy, Barkley et al.