Maybe its because most of the ToffeeWeb squad are from the success era?!? And what they see is not good enough for Everton?

Karl, I think you've answered your own question to some extent when you draw the comparison to your appreciation of what's happened on the pitch with your frustrations at events off it.

When you're at the game, you're there to be entertained; you're hoping to see the Blues win; your focus is on the 90 minutes... the players, the performance, the style of play, etc.

When you're monitoring the game from afar or commenting on the Club online, I think everything is viewed through a wider lens that is affected and skewed by the good and the bad of what is happening at EFC at Board, coaching, facilities, player, etc level.

Add in the relative anonymity of the Web and social media and the separation/shield provided by a keyboard and you have a recipe for the kind of general negativity you speak of.

This is an excerpt of a post from Mark Dunford that we didn't elect to publish in its entirety the end in because it would probably have been counter-productive but the thrust of his satirical piece was similar to yours.

No one is beyond criticism, but much of what passes for it on ToffeeWeb is beyond reason. One of the refreshing things about the past week or so is how so many new names have joined the debate to contribute sensible commentary. Too often the response has been deranged vilification. Recognising Moyes’s contribution to ensuring stability and regular high finishes doesn’t make someone a sycophant. Accepting Kenwright made an excellent managerial appointment 11 years ago seems a statement of the blindingly obvious.

If one outcome of the current uncertainty is that there are more sensible contributors on ToffeeWeb then this is clearly a positive move that helps build a saner Evertonian community. I’ll be at the Chelsea match on Sunday and – like almost everyone else in our section – I’ll applaud Moyes and the players. My hope is that there will be people on the forum doing the same.

I've noticed a growing undercurrent of criticism and disaffection with ToffeeWeb lately elsewhere in online Evertonia, brought to a head by the departure of David Moyes who has had many critics on this website, not least the likes of Tony Marsh, lately Ross Edwards and the Editor himself. The uncompromising, no-holds-barred nature of their criticism and the aggressive nature with which other TW members of similar opinion have been challenging people who disagree with them has engendered a characterisation of this website as being "anti-Moyes".

In actual fact, 50% of the editorial staff (i.e. me) has remained pro-Moyes to the end and I think the fresh blood that Karl mentions who have come out and posted over the past week or so is evidence that a) there are plenty of people who supported Moyes who regularly read the website and b) we had a very vocal, highly entrenched minority who were dominating the discussion, helped by our willingness to allow people to freely post their opinions no matter which side of a given topic they're on.

It's fair to say that the sheer weight of traffic and contributions lately has made policing some of the threads virtually impossible for us and that many discussions seem to inevitably degenerate into petty slanging matches between the same people.

We're going to be looking at what we can do to address that in the coming weeks and months but there is a lot you, our contributors can do to help on that score, which is why I think Karl's post is a good one to air. Perhaps most importantly: remember that, as Evertonians, we're all ultimately on the same side here.

That's a v good point Chris. I suspect that it's not most but a hefty proportion and that's enough to make your point stick.

Having said that, I thought that the '85 thread would have got far more than (I think it is) 27 posts on it: i.e. many TW grouchers/characters were at Rotterdam, Eugene was there, I know that, me too.

People don't emigrate before say 25 for the most part (unless dragged screaming and kicking by parents) and I'm sure that, as for me, TW is a chance to log in and chat with blues in the way I used to do in County Road and Crosby and city-centre alehouses.

Actually, the recent should Moyes walk TW Poll was really interesting. It seesawed a little but the majority were for Moyes and then some.

Is it the case perhaps that people with strong 'anti' opinions are more likely to express them than strong 'pro' peeps as for them the argument is incontrovertible, in this case Moyes does a great job and it don't need to be said.

Another actually, I suspect that the vast majority of peeps/posts over say the last three years or so are hanging around the middle ground, and the proportion of pro- and anti-Moyes words on these hallowed boards might be closer to each other than we might think. Anti-Moyes-Boys or AMB tend to shout louder and more is the right word cuttingly than others who have a more favourable opinion of our current/ex-gaffer (in other words, they take knives to gun-fights)

"So, my question is, why is it that match-going fans seem to have a different outlook to what is happening on here?" Karl, you make it sound as if those who contribute to ToffeeWeb, who have as you say a negative outlook, are not match going fans?

At the end of the day it's all about opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs, and just because it comes across as being negative doesn't mean they are miserable fuckers etc, it just means they see it different to you.

Even if they do live abroad they watch the games live anyway, it's not as if they are commenting on a written match report from some biased journalist. Going to the game sitting in the stands gives you an idea of the atmosphere but in terms of how you view the manager, his tactics and how the team play, it won't change anything.

Probably like going to restaurant. If the meal is good, its how it should be and you don't tell a soul. The meal stinks, you tell everyone!

Well, that's a refreshingly thought-stimulating post by Karl, and an equally refreshing post by Lyndon.

Lyndon, I appreciate your (Michael and yourself) problems in moderating the site given the volume of posts at times.

I also think there are more positive posters on TW than the above might suggest. The lurkers (no offence at all intended, purely descriptive) do seem to have come on here more of late and I've found their contributions refreshing. I do despair at times of not only the negativity on here (and I'd never suggest that shouldn't be allowed) but the sheer level of vitriol in the posts and the mind-numbing repetition.

I've noticed (I think, that things can be enormously negative after a (poor) match / result, but come the day or two before the next match the anticipation and (mainly) positivity is like it used to feel at xmas as a kid.

And Lyndon, of course, rightly draws attention to the ease with which we can all (myself included - I've surprised myself at times) get a bit offensive on here.

This all shows, for me, what a great site this is!

Tony Cheek: "Probably like going to restaurant. If the meal is good, its how it should be and you don't tell a soul. The meal stinks, you tell everyone!"

Nice one. That's one more aspect I meant to raise above and forgot.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that people aren't entitled to different opinions or that people in other countries are more negative. Some of the most vitriolic posters live in Liverpool and are season ticket holders after all.

It seems that match going fans have a much more positive view on the Team generally speaking to fans on here. Does Tony Marsh vent his spleen in the same way at Goodison as on here? Or is it in the cold light of day, he suddenly morphs Hulk like into a raging monster with a keyboard?

I suppose I'm just wondering how in sync is ToffeeWeb with your average fan?

If you keep paying good money to go to the game and you don't like it you're nuts or your missus is a 7 headed hydra; WHY people like it is an entirely different subject not always dependent on what happens on the pitch.

Football forums split into Twitter/Facebook clique fests and the odd proper discussion environment and this is one of the very few throughout football that manages the latter.

To have debate is to have argument, the positive or negative thing is a sneaky "better fan" jibe in disguise.

Be a pity if the site succumbed invoking "positivity" with discussions about wrestling/music and Holly Willoughby's tits - but you can never tell.

Actually Barry we had a discussion about Holly Willoughby's tits on here a couple of weeks ago!

Better fan is a red herring, Barry. I 'm questioning the difference, not which is best?

I'm a newbie to this site since the news that SAF announced retirement and DM favourite to replace him. Sheer panic that my stability was coming to an end and thoughts of relegation battles coming back to me.

There is a lot negativity on this site towards DM but there are also some lol things said on here that puts a smile on my face and great banter and whit.

I also have to say some of the stuff on here so informative and so much effort and passion it far outweighs the really OTT negative stuff but everyone entitled to their opinion and you can skip to next comment or a new thread.

I've found most games I've been to that everyone's positive, although I've been when you've got a person doing your head in shouting abuse all through the game.

Keep it up TW whether I agree with or disagree it's never dull.

I'll be an exception in that I haven't been able to attend a match in ten years, but I'd consider myself to have more of an optimist outlook and I've always supported Moyes and am sad to see him go to United.

I think Chris and Paul have a good point though regarding that most posters residing in foreign lands might have a different outlook due to age and the team they followed years ago. I'm the same age as our soon to be ex-gaffer but I only started following Everton during a two year stint working in Warrington from 2000- 2002.

My Everton experience started with Walter Smith and it's been uphill from then, built slowly without a rich benefactor which to me is preferable.

I could have chose to follow Man United/Liverpool/Man City as they were all equidistant from my house/office but I wasn't going to join the bandwagon of the sky four at the time. Man City was an option but I'm very glad I didn't go that route as I see no honor in buying the title, not Nil Satis Nisi Optimum in my view.

Thanks to Michael and Lyndon for creating this excellent site. Great to read during the week but especially entertaining during the match on weekend mornings when I'll have one window on a dodgy internet feed and the other on the ToffeeWeb live chat.

COYB

Maybe everything is different at the game because at the end of the day we all want to back the team and show our support. We can them come on here if it's been a shite game etc and vent our spleens.

Karl you're saying in your experience people don't criticise to the same level at the game equating that to being positive.

But to me calling for improvement is positive, the debate about how? why? etc is what it is - opinion.

The positive/negative thing is entirely subjective - personally I don't see TW as negative in the least.

Lyndon Lloyd 015

Why does it really matter if threads turn into petty slanging matches between certain members? I think it makes good entertainment at times. As long as nothing offensive is written, I don't see the problem. I'd hate anything to change on TW because it's just great the way it is

For me going the match is easier. You see the small crumbs of hope, that you miss on the TV. Other than the Smith years where there were no crumbs.

I don't know what percentage of the 10,000 people who took part in the poll go to the game, or what percentage of them post on the site, but surely if people think the site is negative they have the freedom to post positive ideas at anytime they like.

It seems to be trendy these days to label everything and everyone for no particular reason, some people forget that each person is an individual with their own views, every person posting believe they are in the right but most are willing to accept that sometimes they get it wrong and will take on board the feedback that comes their way.

Sometimes it gets a bit childish, sometimes it can be worse than childish, but if it is always born in mind that we all support the same club, most of what is written is informative, entertaining and gives an insight to the many differing opinions that you would expect from any group of people. God forbid we become like some other fans of other clubs waving our plastic flags and accepting the party line no matter how ludicrous it may be.

Ha! I looked at my post when it went up and thought "Doh! should have put that in paragraphs". Now, like magic, it is! What a great site. Thanks Lyndon.

This is a very interesting post, I'm not sure where I stand on it. I've been a constant match-goer for 50 years, but I live locally, I meet family and friends before and after the game, I have a match day ritual, it's a habit I enjoy (mostly).

I used to to think this made me a "real supporter". Yet I don't get up at 3.00am in Thailand, or yearn to find a kindred spirit in Boston to watch the match with, or travel from Exeter or Harrogate or Aberdeen, or dream of flying in from Malmo one day. Yet all you guys in far-flung places live and breath our team, your opinion is worth at least as much as mine, probably more.

I believe this is an important site, it allows full expression of opinion. It also occasionally goes off on wonderful flights of fancy. Those who are critical tend to be more vociferous and, dare I say, harsh. Curiously, that may be a helpful thing, at one time of day the only place someone could do that would be at the match, which invariably created anxiety amongst the players.

Well said Peter Mills #076

We're all Evertonians at the end of the day, all equal, all with a different story, all wanting the best for the club.

One of the great things is the different ways that manifests itself and ToffeeWeb is a gift that allows us to thrash it out - a gift which we often abuse, and I am no exception to that.

At 3pm on a Saturday (mostly) we all come together though and support the lads. That, at the end of the day, is what matters.

Everton fans go to all sorts of extremes to follow and watch their team etc - hell when I go the game I use the soccer bus lol. I have blue relatives currently living Australia and Dubai and they never miss watching a game.

Mark (067), the problem is that they degenerate into the same arguments between the same people all the time. If a thread surpasses 100 comments, you can almost guarantee it!

If you enjoy that then I suspect you're in the minority and I know that it discourages others from contributing. There has to be a happy medium where people of all opinions feel they can chip in without watering down everybody's views or devolving towards centrist discussions.

Lyndon, you are right, there is a need for all contributors to accept they have had their say, other disagree, that's ok.

I went to the games before I moved to the USA, however since then I have watched every single game via the internet, whether it means me getting up at 5:00 or 7:30 depending on what time the kick off is. My opinion has not changed because of this; I am happy that we achieve stability year after year but what I really want now is for us to start winning things.

I am thankful to Moyes, don't get me wrong, but when we have had the chance to win stuff, the stuff that really matters, we have blown it. I am pretty sure that, given the right kind of manager, this team is pretty capable of winning us a trophy and making a push on the top 4. I believe in Everton FC.

I believe there are many factors at play here — at least many more factors than simply whether or not you attend the match.

The biggest problem is generalization. "ToffeeWeb is negative" — that's the biggest one and the falsest one for anyone who takes the time to actually read the full range of what's actually posted. And so "denigrating every single thing about [the Club] including the team" is such a gross and inaccurate generalization — I don't believe anyone is doing that...

Which brings us to another common problem: perception versus reality. Karl has a perception that he's trying to back up or explain. But it's not reality. I suspect there are plenty at the game who bemoan the poor football, as some do on here. You think I'm anti-Moyes? My brother goes every week; he can't stand Moyes and his dreadful tactics... but that makes him annoyed — not miserable.

Then there's the personality aspect. This is way beyond my specialty but some people look at the world analytically, others through rose-tinted glasses. This is a fact. Mistakenly they might label each other optimists and pessimists. Negative or Positive.... Miserable or Happy — and here we are back to the title of this article.

We get posts from people occasionally who cannot abide the open debate we try to foster — because there are views expressed that don't fit their individual preconceptions. For a number of people, that makes everybody else wrong.

I think this is the biggest problem we face in expecting people to 'share' their views and perspectives, and expecting others to actually be receptive of alternate views... alternate to the point of being anathema, for whatever reason. And that's the point where it breaks down. But I don't believe it has anything to do with going or not going to the match.
Or where you live.

Or how old you are.

More tolerance and respect required!!!

Karl, I think one reason there's more perceived "negativity" is that the people with those views are more entrenched in them (Tim Jones re: Moyes, myself re: Kenwright) and aren't swayed by the more moderate opinions.

Then those with the moderate opinions just give up posting in opposition as they don't get listened to, however right they may be.

Jackie #091, do you have a good streaming website you can recommend? My satellite provider has lost the rights to the EPL next season so I'll need to look at the internet option.

Karl, what app do you use on your 'phone?Any recommendations for an Android app?

I assume the last few weeks have been a bit out the ordinary for the amount of mail received and yes some of it may have turned into petty slanging matches, but I hope we don't try and implement some subtle form of censorship on which replies we print to letters received.

As long as they're not resorting to out and out abuse (and I don't think any do) then if time and space permits print them all I say. Don't forget, there's 3 sides to every argument: my side, your side and the facts.

So many topics brought up by so many people – who's to say who's right and wrong? Sometimes I've come on here with a firmly entrenched view about a topic but after reading other views I've thought, "Well, maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way", then i'll have a re-think.

There is no league table at the end of the season for the ToffeeWebbers: who was right the most who got it all wrong... it's after all an internet forum and they just don't work that way.

One final thing: if we do get Martinez as manager we'll be able to keep them two well known acronyms: IMWT and MOB — and for me, it's ToffeeWeb I Trust.

Sometimes I like to give a considered view, other times have a rant, other times take the piss and many times talk crap. My choice.

If this became a place where only the analytical or balanced were able to post it would lose some of the best posters on it. I love the rows between the entrenched.

Worth also noting there is one other influence on content especially around match day - booze (or equivalent). That can create some of the funniest debates.

An interesting post and comments. Fascinating to get an insight into the editorial approach and the role it should/shouldn't play in debate on TW.
I am an armchair fan and derive most of my appreciation of EFC via TW/Newsnow/official website. Whilst I don't go to the games I catch most live via internet. Infrequently I offer comments on posts but generally feel my view/opinion is of lower value as I don't contribute to the club's income. My link to EFC is my dad - someone who had a season ticket from the 50s through to the 80s. Sometimes I find myself trying to out debate him on the club, next manager etc. I always remind myself that he is a genuine fan who went to the games and supported the club for over 40 years with a passion and I am an internet creation with an acquired interest in the club. Ultimately his view and those of the fans that attend the games is what really matters.
Some of the TW discussions are entertaining, not because of the insight they provide into EFC but because of the light they shine on the cast of characters who sit behind their keyboards. I think most of us who read TW regularly understand the difference between the internet and the real world and hopefully allow that those who go to the games and put some cash into the club are experiencing something more real than those of us who like to exchange views over the web.

Complaining, however, can be damaging as well. When a few venting sessions turn into a continual habit, or a few people venting their frustrations turns into a group of constant complainers, we get into more stress-inducing territory.

Here are some of the pitfalls of too much complaining:

Focus On The Problem, Not Potential Solutions:

While complaining can be a means to build motivation, it does keep the focus on the problem rather than on potential solutions. If you spend too much time complaining, you can work yourself into a place of resigned acceptance, of sheer rage, or of feeling "stuck," rather than of motivation to change.

Pessimistic Outlook:

Research shows that there are many benefits to an optimistic outlook, and pitfalls to a pessimistic one. Attitudes can work like habits – we get used to thinking a certain way, and we start automatically taking that perspective. A habitual focus on the negative can bring a habitually pessimistic perspective.

Free-Floating Anger:

When you focus on the things about which people chronically complain, you risk becoming more and more angry. This anger can take on a life of its own, and you can start feeling more angry about more and more things. This anger can lead to relationship and health issues, and is not good for you.

Negative Groups:

Complaining can be contagious. What might start as a group of people offering one another validation and solidarity can sometimes begin to resemble an angry mob. If you find that you and your friends habitually complain about the same things and don't feel better afterwards, it may be time to look at new topics of focus.

Drain On Others:

If you don't have the support of the group, this can be detrimental as well. Those who frequently complain can be experienced as 'energy vampires' by others. Be careful that your complaints don't become so heavy that they overwhelm your listener.

http://stress.about.com/od/positiveaffirmations/a/Why-Do-We-Complain-And-When-Should-We-Stop.htm

[Tumbleweed blows by]

I go to matches, which sometimes makes me very anxious, nervous, and sometimes very relieved and always delighted when we win.

But when I read about endless love-ins with BK and Moyes, a possible in-house appointment, you just want to rant. It makes you feel better.

Everyone likes to see their own views endorsed but not everyone is totally entrenched in their opinions. I have been opposed to David Moyes for quite a while but, as a result of debate on ToffeeWeb, I believe that my views are much more moderate and centre ground.

No, Ross – it makes YOU feel better.,.. it turns me to the ale!

Anyone who has had the unfortunate experience of having a real life Ross Edwards bellow a stream of abuse throughout the match knows that the web is not the only opportunity for permanent negativity. However – as wider studies of the web show – there is something about on-line forums (the anonymity, isolation from normal rules of social exchange, cliquishness etc) that makes the dynamics of discussion different. People may be attracted by the presence of others with like minds and the negativity is self-reinforcing. The hostile atmosphere on the Live Matchday Forum can be startling and attacks on the manager, particular players, other fans outside the negativity loop start well before anyone has done anything in the actual match. Watching an individual stream and ‘listening’ to other similar views is not subject to the same kind of corrective that being at a match with others can provide.

Michael may well say that this perception of relentless negativity is unfair, but as Lyndon acknowledges, it is widely held by many other blues (there’s some pretty funny digs on Peoples Forum for example – one of the posters is even called ToffeeWebWanker). Having said all this, ToffeeWeb is still the best designed, most accessible Everton site and when not endlessly replaying the same stale ‘debates’, a great place for intelligent and humorous discussion. I look forward to a brief period after the appointment of a new manager and before disillusionment sets in, when we might actually get some fresh ideas and arguments.

Paul - Perhaps Ross is the perfect example of what I'm alluding to? Doesn't bellow abuse at the match, maybe he doesn't even mention his Moyes out opinions, maybe he is encoraging to the Team at Goodison, but saves all the anti-stuff for here! Maybe?

What do you say, Ross?

Spot on Karl! I'd be lynched if I said at the match what I say here!

It's 20 past midnight here in Perth. I jumped on ToffeeWeb before I toddle off to bed but I've gotta say, T Lennon (#187), I've never read so much shit in my life.

Mate, has this been copied an pasted from some pseudo paper you've read? This is ToffeeWeb, there is no right or wrong, there is no pessimistic or optimistic views, there is just people's views, all are right and all are wrong. Accept that people may not agree with the last poster, doesn't make it damaging... it just means they don't agree.

So, as I snook off to bed and dread the morn's hangover, I say, keep YOUR views coming in – no one is optimistic or pessimistic... you just ARE.

I have noticed that the match reports on ToffeeWeb by the editors (Michael and Lyndon) are always unbiased to their individual or any other particular opinions but just report on the game as it happened. A hard thing to do especially immediately after a bad defeat.

Mick, I agree with you. There was a myth perpetuated for some time that this site was negative and anti- Moyes. Utter nonsense. The match reports from Michael. Lyndon and Ken Buckley are examples of unbiased reporting which have always given credit to the opposition when due.

Over the last five years those opposed to Moyes have, it seems to me, been a minority so where do these accusations of negativity come from.

We are going to get a new coach. Many of us will disagree with the appointment but we will unite behind him and I hope he will get the same leeway as David Moyes did.

Not much leeway then Andy? #931

Brendan, for at least the first half of us reign David Moyes was almost unanimously supported. Not many coaches today get five years backing.

My own view on this interesting point Karl, is that since I have left the UK and been unable to go to the match regularly, I have 'lost' that magical feeling of walking up to the ground, seeing the sea of blue on County Road, the after match analysis in the Midland etc. There is some infectious positivity of just 'being there' surrounded by fellow blues. Similarly that feeling of how polite everyone generally is in the bars, not pushing in, seeing kids head to toe in blue, putting my finger up to anfield everytime we scored (I sat in the right hand side of the top balc where it dips in towards the pitch a bit), a million things.

So I personally miss the whole days out, as opposed to the 90 minutes of football itself. I remember getting stuffed in the FA Cup by Tranmere, walking out at half time and having one of the funniest days of my life with about 15 lads where we walked back into town and stopped in nearly every boozer on the way. On the internet, there is very little to soften the blow, and of course you don't feel the atmosphere of Goodison regardless of how loud we sing. I think Chris Hannon 005 nails it pretty much, in that most of those perceived as 'negative' are those who appear to be people who went to the match in era's that many of us younger blues just cannot imagine. Of course, there are always exceptions to that but I think generally it is accurate. As my first years of match going were under Walker, Royle, KH mk III & Walter, Moyes was a godsend and this is generally the reason I have appreciated him so much. I don't have many yardsticks to judge him by.

But the one thing on this site that does fucking wind me up, is when people question your credentials as an Evertonian. If we weren't, we wouldn't be posting on this site with such passion, so that is my 'cardinal sin'. Disagree, show passion, argue, do whatever. But do not suggest your blood is bluer than others just because you go to the match, as I am certain that those who are here religiously on the match day forum week in week out would be at the match also if they had the ability to do so.

Brilliant thread and, apart from a few posts, what a relief to read a balanced, abuse free series of posts.

I agree with much of what has been said but would particularly agree with Lyndon when he suggests that the site has often had the appearance of being anti Moyes because of vociferous and constant posts from a "loud" minority.

That's not a problem per se but it does become a problem, I think, when thread after thread then gets hijacked by the same small group of people all following the same agenda. It produces a level of frustration (certainly in me) which is just not helpful to any debate.

I was a match goer from the late 60's through to the end of the 80's. I still try now though (watching the games on line or on Sky) to adopt the same attitude that I used to have whilst at Goodison, which is generally supportive of the team and the players. I have to say that isn't true of some of the live forum posters....

However, an offhand, rude and personal remark about a player or the team whilst sitting in the Gladys St can be very different in tone to the same remarks appearing in black and white (in silence) on a thread and I guess that is also a major difference between the two "supporting" experiences, and one which feeds this notion that match going support is different to the on line variety.

Eric, sorry I didn't reply sooner regarding the app. I just use the official one provided by the Club, and in contrast to many of the farcical off the pitch goings on at Everton, it's truly excellent.