I'd like to (genuinely) thank Moyes for turning a laughing-stock of a club into a respected one again.

I'd also like to thank him for tranfsorming a desperate squad containing such un-professional luminaries as Ginola, Gazza, & Blomqvist into one containing the likes of Jagielka, Fellaini & Mirallas, Cahill & Arteta.

For delivering European football, and for having a massive imput into the development of Finch Farm.

For delivering 9 top-eight finishes in 11 years, when we'd only finished in the top-half once in the history of the Premier League.

For spending more than a decade of your life stewarding our football club, and representing it with grace & dignity.

Finally, a big thanks for leaving it in an infinitely healthier position than the shambles you inherited.

He delivered stability as you say. He spent over a decade here as you say, but trousered around £24m for his trouble. Fair enough, we were a stepping stone to Man U, but it seems his longevity at EFC was as much about Fergie deciding when to go.

Whilst I don't think he's the Messiah, I don't think he's the naughty boy either. The real villain of the piece being in the Boardroom. Although even if he'd delivered more millions for DM to spend, even if DM had won a pot or two, he'd still have been off up the East Lancs as soon as the call came.

Does that excuse him for the way he has handled his "moving on to better things".

The theme os the OP is spot on for me although I blame BK more than I do Moyes as he is supposed to have the best interests of the club at heart whereas Moyes is just looking after his own career albeit whilst lying to us.

Do you really believe that it is Moyes's fault Everton went uncompensated when he left? I mean really?

I didn't have a major problem with Moyes until he said that he was helping us by splitting his time between Carrington and Finch Farm. How the f*#k does that help us? All the other crap he's pulled recently I can understand because he has landed his dream job. I don't like it but I can understand it, but this is insulting.

I am beginning to not care about the new manager as long as he signs soon and acts as a catalyst to get rid of the board.

Turkeys, after all, do not vote for Christmas.

I'm not sure they vote for anything in reality, but you know what I mean.

It’s his fault that resources are tight?
It’s his fault that Bill may consider an insider for the job?
Look at the team he took over compared to the team we had reassess if he left us with nothing.
Tactically undone by Dalglish. You don’t think cheated by Suarez and the victim of a rare mistake by one of our most reliable players?
He did not buy fur because of a fitness concerned, if he did buy him and he turned out unfit, then you would not be slating hi for being reckless with club finances. Especially since we were in the middle of a crisis with KMs fitness. Plus if he knew he was leaving (which he did not) he would have had a selfish incentive to blow all the transfer cash
Managers regularly run down the contracts before renewing the convention is not to treat them as players – that may have to change, it’s regrettable in our case, but not unusual.

………….. I’ll stop there, but pretty much every point you make is without basis or merit.

Is this is one of the the dumbest, most ungracious articles ever written on TW.

Such a shame, about this website at the moment, I'm not even going to analyse the article because its as bad as it gets, and looks like its been written with beer goggles.

I'm surprised you've missed off Moyes once inadvertently being rude to the lady cleaning in the Alex Young Suite or the time he coughed four times during a post-match interview on Sky...

A few months ago I described him as an arrogant buffoon his behaviour since has just re-inforced the point.

Thank god this dreadful harbinger of mediocrity will be off the payroll soon - at least 6 of the last 11 years a complete dead end if you were an Evertonian of ambition.

My god the truth really does hurt doesn't it?

Stop whining about editorial policy if you can argue against the points raised I'm all ears.

We all know you had no time for Moyes, and you always go on about wanting someone with ambition care to give us your choice to provide this.

However many sides of this "debate" there are, all sides are capable of producing (and have done so) pieces or responses that are questionable, but also provide wry amusement value. However I agree it's getting a bit tired now. Instead of more articles from his disciples, clearly written whilst clutching their pearls, or even better, articles from those slagging him off for leaving us in the lurch - even though they've been calling for his departure for over 2 seasons, I pine for something a bit more original. It's like fucking groundhog day on here at the moment.

I "look forward" to the shitstorm when the new manager is finally appointed. At least the bile will feature a different name for once.

Like it or lump it we wont get any where without money.

(2) "GK’s are not cheap and there is no-one at the club at the right standard to keep goal " Howard is a good goalie, not the best, but our best. If BK had provided funds I'm sure Moyes would have spent £19m on someone like De Gea. But Bill didn't. so Moyes couldn't.
(3) "There are at least 3 other positions that require desperate player funds" Not sure what this means. Desperate player funds? Eh?
(4) "Would I be surprised to see Leroy Fer at Man Utd" I wouldn't be surprised to see ANY player at Man Utd, they are, after all, probably the biggest club in the world. And, guess what, they have some money so that they can buy players like Fer, instead of making up a story about knee injuries. Or "£10 a week and tickets for Blood Brothers. Will that do?"
(5) "was that you’re to ‘move on to better things’," Ask any neutral "Who is the bigger and better club, Everton or Man Utd?" Taking our loyalty aside, I know who most people would say are the bigger and better club. Whether we like it or not.
Why can't people accept that Moyes left Everton in a far better state than when he arrived?

BK- So Davey, who do you fancy to replace you here?
DM- Well Bill, I like the look of Laudrup, or maybe even Martinez....
BK- Maybe I should have been more specific, I mean someone who is cheap!
DM- Oh.....well then, Phil it is!

We have finished top of the non big money clubs and consistently finished above our spend/income league table of 11th over the last 11 years ...

Club now has to pick carefully and we as fans have to get behind that person of coaching/management team.

One thing that alarms me is that the internet allows extreme views and gives them credibility. Whoever takes over will make many new mistakes and have bad luck in games, injuries, illnesses behind closed doors, personal family troubles, bad agents, bad attitude players and so on. This will fuel all sorts of madness and negativity.

ToffeeWeb as our biggest fan forum has to take responsibility for supporting the club not slagging it off whenever any of these things happen with the new management team.

I am heartened by the positive balanced posters on here ... please speak up when the shit hits the fan and we have difficult situations ahead.

- Colin Southern -

“All censorships exist to prevent anyone from challenging current conceptions and existing institutions. All progress is initiated by challenging current conceptions, and executed by supplanting existing institutions. Consequently, the first condition of progress is the removal of censorship.”

- Bobby Davro -

None of that seems true to me.

Ray Roche, you say "you're not sure" or similar a few times hardly a convincing argument for the OP not being allowed.

The specific on the goalie - well we're back to we can't bring through our own aren't we? If the "all about money" argument is getting wheeled out.

Which reinforces the OPs point if Moyes really had any feeling/sympathy he'd have signed a contract ensuring a bit of compo!

Every single word of this piece is true and just because a few of you live in a Moyes fc dreamworld it irks - well you know where the east lancs rd is!

Presumably you are suggesting that if Michael and Lyndon chose not to include Charlie's posting on the latter, albeit justifiable basis, it would represent some form of Orwellian control?

BK et al have to take some responsibility for allowing him to run down his contract. Even if they'd given him a fixed compo deal (like he'll have at OT), we'd have got more than nothing. Maybe Moyes did agree on a handshake. You know, like that Dan Gosling fella did.

I have never seen David Moyes as devious of nature, and to suggest such a thing is more a personal reflection than a true idea of what he should or shouldn't have done.

Arsene Wenger has stated that he will see out his contract so that he is not viewed as a 'thief', which it my mind is a far more respectable way of handling these matters.

Shay Given is demanding £5m from Villa to have the last 3 years of his contract written off - is that an acceptable way of doing things? I think not.

Moyes got 11 years out of EFC at a disproportionate salary for fuck all - you may think he owes us nothing either financially or ethically but I think he's been one hard faced bugger this last year.

It's not disproportionate in the world of football, the world of football itself is disproportionate to the rest of the world!

What really sinks this submission is that assumes the voice of all of us.

As for the last sentence - David Moyes, the only millionaire in football.

The phrase is "clearing the decks" - no contract meant no possible impediment and the accompanying lies provided the safety net in case the great plan went tits up.

You really don't think "devious"?

The wages are similar at both clubs, yet Moyes never had the transfer kitty of Stoke who spent £20m+ in the summer... I'll say that again... £20m+!

We have much less and finish among the monied clubs, 14pts clear of the next club down who have similar resources. Everton were still in a shout of CL with 4 games to go and you see these results as relatively the same?

Do you want to change your views, because you're talking bollocks.

How is that the same as Moyes' achievements?

The higher the league position the more Premiership money you get. The higher the league position the more TV money you get. The higher the league position the better team you are!

Pulis' achievements for Stoke in terms of league position actually resemble Everton prior to Moyes.

It would also have meant forcing the hand of his new employer to hand over cash to get their man, no?

To me it doesn't feel devious letting his contract run down at all - you may feel in some way cheated, but then again aren't you one of of the people that's glad to see the back of him? You seem to be wanting your cake & eat it in some respects. You want him gone, but you want to get some money for him?

If anyone here appears 'innocent' it surely isn't me - I was well aware of what could have been going on behind the scenes and if you think PR smokescreens are something new, well then you're more innocent than I could ever be.

Either way, it really doesn't matter and we're both arguing the toss over spilt milk here aren't we? Surely the real question is what now? I see Pereira has shortened up markedly over night - anyone know why? I can't find any more info online.

Barry in no way are Stoke's results comparable to ours. Only a moron would think their football in any way resembles ours and if you think that aiming for tenth every year is the same as trying to challenge for the champions league then you'll have no problem adjusting to the new norm if the new manager turns out to be average.

As always everyone seems to have such a problem with wages, Moyes getting piad too much, Neville getting paid too much, Naismith getting paid too much, Osman getting paid too much. Maybe we hsould just not pay anyone. If you stay at a company for 11 years you expect payrises and that's what happened with Moyes. the board felt he was worthy of payrises - what was he going to do decline them and stay on his 2002 salary for 11 years? Ridiculous. Osman, Neville and Naismith are/were on average premier league wages that pale into comparison with what players in the squads around us in the league are getting paid. People want Everton to be a top club but don't want to pay the manager or the players anywhere near what their peers are getting - ridiculous outlook that just shows no understanding of the modern game.

If you mean the man, then 1, change your google language to Portuguese and 2, learn Portuguese.

Lies? Devious???

James Martin you're right about Stokes football up till recently things were far more exciting at the Britannia hence their better atmosphere - Moyes has been consistently dour hence the predominant snooze fest at GP during his time.

Surely you don't mean that being Everton puts points on the table? I think the 90s proved that not to be the case.

The net spend table for the last five years has Stoke in third and we're down the bottom.

You appear to be saying that our on-pitch performance should have been better just because of our illustrious history. That's a little like expecting a former millionaire to continue leading a lavish lifestyle whilst on the bones of his arse

As I said educate yourself.

More sensitivity by Moyes would have been nice. If you have a festering wound you don't need somebody sticking their finger in to confirm it.

Nick - re Pereira. I know how to use the Internet, thanks. I was trying to move the conversation on a little from the current bickering over who's right & wrong. I'm also very aware of how bookies operate, but thanks for the belittling comments :-)

...is there another form of education that you are suggesting? Maybe a Clockwork Orange-esque brain-washing technique to enforce Barry Rathbone's view of Everton past, present and future?

Walker, Kendall, Smith were cacking themselves. Even Moyes thought it possible in his second season.

Its that delusion that makes you think just being Everton we should be at the top, just like the 80s, school of science and all the good bits that ever happened. Wake up Barry, we've had more shit times than good and modern day football cares not one dam for history.

You haven't even noticed that there are about 10 people in opposition to your outlandish comments on this thread! Innocent my arse.

There IS a value an effect of being long established - attracting players both youth and experienced would be one and do you remember why Moyes came?

The large crowds and yes the money ... we pay decent money because of our history.

Saying it has no impact is just complete and utter horse shit

If anyone wants me I'll be on the Rosetta Stone website.

Hahahahaha!

Now, does anyone have anything remotely sensible to add?

It concede that it may give you slightly more leverage when signing players. I seem to recall the "mighty" James Beattie suggesting that Everton's history helped him decide to accept our offer which, as an aside, I think was better than anyone else's.

If anything, when you have an illustrious history it can make things more difficult when times get tough. Can you imagine how hard teams are going to go at Moyes' "new" Man Utd next season? Any sign of weakness and every Premiership team from top to bottom will treat the Utd match as a cup final.

But that draw isn't what creates the points difference between us and Stoke is it. You think Moyes held us back from a supposed rightful position, when in fact he propped us up.

Pereira- So Bill, how much do I get in transfer Kitty?
Kenwright - Oh Vitor, we've got something much richer than money. History!
Pereira - You can't trade players with history Bill.
Kenwright - Oh no? Ask Barry Rathbone.
Pereira - Barry Rathbone. Only in legend have I heard of such a man.

The article is complete vindictive bullshit

It's faded history, and means very little to the modern day player.

Barry, you say that I am "not sure" a few times.
Twice actually, and I would like you to expand on
exactly what " "There are at least 3 other positions
that require desperate player funds" is all about. Does it mean
we need funds for desperate players or are we desperate for
funds with which to buy players, who may be desperate or may not.
Whichever, it's not Moyes fault that he hasn't got those funds, is it?
And also explain why Moyes should provide soft arse Kenwright
with compo. Moyes had a contact, Everton allowed it to run down,
(sound familiar?)
Moyes decided to leave. With the bile directed at him on here he's done the right thing.

We'll never know whether he really intended to sign, the board had the opportunity to call his bluff (if that's what it was) and they, once again, failed to deliver. IMO the blame doesn't lie with DM, it's where the blame should always lie when it comes to our club's failings in recent history.

Add this to your bewildering thoughts on Anichebe playing central midfield and you really are beginning to lose credibility. Far more exciting at the Britannia? They had a couple of seasons of 'we can't believe we're in the premier league' and then the relaity of their football set in. They've got a good atmosphere because they've got a good set of fans that probably aren't as demanding as ours. Their football is shocking though and if you think its anyway better than ours then that would probably explain your Anichebe delusion. You can try and deflect it with your opinion that you think Goodison has been a snore fest during his time (what was our home record this year? Did I also just imagine the atmospheres at Fiorentina, Man U multiple times, City multiple times, many other occasions too) but do you honestly think they play better football than us? honestly? And do you honestly think that scrapping for tenth is the same as pushing for Europe? Can you see no difference between the performance levels of the two teams?

Yes indeed they are, but that statement is disingenuous and attempts to cloudy the water.

Take this paragraph.

- "When Moyes was their for all them years at Everton we won nothing. we where shite and your living in cloud cukoo land if you believe he was anything but a self-servicing failure" -

Now in terms of a forum, 'quality control' would be to correct or point out all the fucked up grammar, spelling mistakes and incorrect use of certain words - censorship would be to pull or ban the entire paragraph.

See the difference?

It is without doubt the case, that when you ban content, you censor, it's that simple (not always 100% wrong given libel laws, but censorship nevertheless)

You say..

"Presumably you are suggesting that if Michael and Lyndon chose not to include Charlie's posting on the latter, albeit justifiable basis, it would represent some form of Orwellian control?"

If!?

Well you can 'if' all you want, the reality is they DID allow the post which suggests that they felt (unlike you) it WASN'T 'justifiable' to pull/ban it.

Maybe, given your eagerness to support banning pieces you don't like, you should start your own forum along the lines of..

agreewithmeoryouareebarred.com

Really, what is the point of having this here? Why air anything from the loopy eyed nutter element of those with anti Moyes views. There are plenty of anti's who articulate well and have provided a decent critique. This junk just stirs up more ranting bullshit.

Can we have some celebrity shit down the right hand column. Its the only thing missing to give us the full Daily Mail

What I and many others on here are expressing is exasperation at the "recursive loop" we appear to be caught in on TW, with Charlie's post being one of the worst examples.

I have frequently seen editorial comment from Michael to the effect of "Your posting is in the same vein as many on here and adds nothing to the argument so has been included under X thread". Perhaps that would have been more appropriate here.

Your hysteria at the thought of freedom of speech being jeopardised by my comments seems a tad disproportionate though Eugene. I frequently enjoy your postings but at times you do come over as a pseudo-intellectual pedant!

No-one has said ban it, they were surprised that it even seen the light of day as its just so poorly written and incomprehensible.

I can only presume it wasn't published on the basis that Michael or Lyndon presumed the inclusion of Jackie Chan and Aung San Suu Kyi as an example of Asians who were willing to change their subscriptions to La Liga if the top 4 was not set in stone was bordering on raci... xenophobia.

Of course, now I can claim that in that incoherent missive, I confidently predicted that we'd break the top 4 that season (hoping MK and LL don't keep copies of rejections).

Oh, and Nick, whilst in Asia I did get to go drinking with Jackie Chan's son. He's a Man U fan, or at least he was in late 2008.

Well a pedant is simply someone who wants to deal in the EXACT truth, consequently this 'accusation' is often lobbed into debates by those who don't.

Pseudo-intellectual?

Well many intellectuals (nb: and I certainly DON'T class myself in this category) have the 'pseudo' bit thrown at them at some stage.

Pseudo-intellectual is like saying "I'm pissed off you're clever so will try and denigrate the clever part".

Desperate stuff imo.

Colin Southern (294) - "No-one has said ban it, they were surprised that it even seen the light of day as its just so poorly written and incomprehensible".

Surely you mean - "They were surprised that it even SAW the light of day"

(and 'it's' has an apostrophe).

"Pedant: A person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning"

Perhaps the pseudo-intellectual tag wasn't required...

Charlie - had you taken some when you wrote this piece ?

"Moyes done nothing other than the basics you would expect from any manager. "
If the basics are keeping us happily free from relegation struggles, assembling a proper team, with players other clubs will covet as opposed to the rag, tag and bobtail shower he inherited , playing, eventually, good attacking football and leaving us disappointed if we fail to make CL qualification, then, yes, Moyes has done the basics. Consequently, every manager finishing below us has royally fucked up, including the likes of Martinez and Laudrup, managers some on here are prepared to carry shoulder high on a triumphant march from Lime St to Goodison.

Anyway, had a drink a few times with David Bowie's cousin. That's as cool as it ever got for me.

Oh right, I'm with you, the kind of person who would resort to a specific dictionary definiti.....erm.....oh well, you know the kind of person I mean.

...anyway, in true blue spirit let's move on. So, Pereira evens favourite to be the next manager? Exciting!

Dennis, well said, I almost long for the days when EVERYBODY hated Walker or Lee. Having said that I don't blame Kenwright. I blame Hibbert.

Sink to mediocrity? Made us a joke club? What planet are you on??

We finished in the position our team/finances allowed us to finish - the top 7 teams this year finished exactly where they deserved to finish, bar none.

Get a grip man.

Not that anyone cares, eh...

I'll let you off then.

Advice to one-and-all: start to skip posts when Nick's name turns up say more than three times in the left margin.

This is yet another post from you saying that I've posted. I know you don't like me, I've noted that from your four letter tirades on the live forum - and mainly do so because of 1, my support for Moyes, and 2, because, in your own words, I 'live in laaandon'.

There's 7 million of us, get over it.

Go away and realise no one ever ever follows you up on your special special insight. People only get this much attention on line when they're being groomed...

It's also true about your little tempest tantrums on here with Eugene and others. Bric-a-brac.

Needless to say, how on earth can I dislike you. I'm sure that you are eminently likeable.

The Moyes thing? Well, no, that's not enough to dislike you, although it's true that I think you are more blinkered than most.

London. Well, I lived in Notting Hill for six years after I moved from Cambridge and before I moved to Chicago. I've written a book about London and published perhaps 10 or so essays and articles on London. I still have my scouse accent thank the Lord.

I do dislike your views on most things Moyes for the most part, but don't mistake that for personal dislike. I have one or two long-life mates who spout the same gibberish and I think the world of them.

And, one last thing, that sadly I feel is petty, I am in constant dialogue with others on here and you can be certain that some peeps do 'follow me up on my special special insight'

It's the same old shit again and again. He had opportunities to take us to the next level and he didn't. But who put us in the position to even have those opportunities? It's like a dog chasing his tail and hoping to catch it.

That said, Moyes is gone, and I'm sick of hearing about him. I believe trying to fill Old Red Nose's boots is about as stupid a move as you could possibly make, but that's me. If he wins the league? He should, the squad / culture / structure / all of the above were there already. If he doesn't, venom aplenty. It says a lot for Everton that Moyes actually thinks he can fill those size 56 boots. I don't think he will, but he's got enough confidence to give it a shot. And that comes from the success he had here.

And ultimately, what I or Ruane, or Entwistle, or Doddy, or Rathbone or Ross Edwards thinks matters as much as a piss in the Atlantic. Moyes will either be a success there or he won't. Simple.

Moyes has carried the bag of shite that is our club as far as he could. Eleven years had yielded nothing, eleven more probably would have seen us go backwards... That's why he left.

A new man could possibly see opportunity where Dave only saw problem. In business if you cant solve a problem, a fresh look at it cant be a bad thing.
We can't lose here really. The new man either does a Laudrup and builds on the foundation already created. Or he goes backwards and Blues unite in pointing the finger at Comrade Bill. It's either the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end. Like Moyes tenure up the road, time will tell!

For what it's worth, I think Roberto Martinez is great, so would be gutted if he came here. I hope he goes to Stoke where the owner backs his manager with cash and time and sees it through. Laudrup is a pipe dream, Swansea are on the up and up. We are treading water furiously. Rafa knows what he's doing but there's no way he'd come here. Too much respect for the Redshite, plus we don't pay like oligarchs do. Bielsa? Pereira? Klopp? Do you think Chairman Comrade would conduct interviews through an interpreter?

Cardiffs boy, or promotion from within. Not my choice, but where I'd put my hard earned.

I don't care that you keep mentioning my posts, but referring to me in the third person as if everyone is nodding in unison is what's delusional.

And you should know every pub in Portobello claims to be where Strummer used to go!

Bugger supported Chelsea but had time for us. Admired the 84/87 team. We watched that was it '96 Euro semi v Germany in there. Told me tha his fave Clash line was 'vacuum cleaner sucks up budgie' and that Erics (liverpool) was one of his 3 fave places to play.

Your 1st para is also somewhat off the wall as it's blind bleedingly obvious and I don't think that 'hypocritical' is necessarily the right word in this context.

So The Castle or The Elgin, 7 Friday?

The Elgin are hosting Strummerville a week next Friday funnily enough.

Ugh, we will be laughing and drinking this Friday... only I'll be up in Yorkshire where a Sam Smith's pint still cost £1.60. Not like at The Londsdale where they've truly given in to the tourist dollar and after 2 years of steady increases you can find a pint of wheat beer for £4.60.

Normal for the area - but not for a Sam Smith's!

I'm in that city of your a fair bit, this meet will happen!!!!!!

I don't see why Charlie has generated such pious indignation. Some of his post is over the top but some is perfectly legitimate opinion.Tony Marsh has been much more forthright in the past and hasn't drawn such a response.

It seems to me that people are entitled to call the piece a crock of shite but to suggest that it shouldn't have been published is utterly ludicrous.