The first phase of Everton's consultation over the new club crest ended on Sunday and the process has now moved into the design phase, from which a selection of options will be presented to supporters to vote for their favourite starting next week.
Though the club came in for a barrage of criticism for the design of the current badge, their response to that criticism – from the initial decision to change course and replace it after this season right through to the wide nature of the consultation process – has been laudably transparent and inclusive. There have been grumblings from some quarters about the character of the questionnaire but, on the whole, the feeling among the fan base is that the club have done as well as they can in trying to canvass the opinions of a large and disparate group.
The move is in keeping with the significant shift that has occurred in the club's communication and interaction with its fans over the past few months. The commercial department would likely admit in hindsight that there was a sufficient groundswell of opposition to the initial leaks of the badge at the beginning of the year to foreshadow the fury that would follow. Presumably satisfied that their in-house creation had met the brief for replacing the "2000-2012" version, they pressed on regardless.
In all honesty, had the badge that they unveiled in May been one befitting our great club's traditions, the process by which it was chosen would largely have been ignored. There was a degree of consultation, more so probably than the likes of Tottenham and Arsenal for their recent crest modifications, but the final product fell a good distance short of what would likely have been produced by a professional design agency and that is what irked a good many Evertonians.
Now that the design is in the hands of an independent group, it is going to be fascinating to see what they come up with on the basis of their findings from the consultation period. Unfortunately – though understandably given Kenyon Fraser's need to produce an original work – Everton's Director of Communications, Alan Myers, has ruled out the possibility of one of the "four to five hundred" supporter-design options they have received being chosen. (It would have been more than fitting had a fan-design work been offered up, assuming it was good enough.)
Various fan-produced offerings demonstrate the difficulty in preserving the desired elements while keeping them legible and easily reproduced.
There has been a steady stream of options appearing on Twitter over the past few weeks and we have had ideas sent to us as fans have put forth their vision of what the new crest could look like. Unfortunately, many of them used the new, maligned crest as their foundation, merely reproducing a slightly altered version of the badge we're trying to replace; others, meanwhile, proved just how difficult it is going to be to retain all the elements of the old crest while producing an emblem that is as easily reproduced as the club feel it needs to be.
MilkyOne Design's popular wreath-based option
The wreath-based version by MilkyOne Design has proven popular with fans on social media but with it's free-standing elements it would probably fall outside the club's goal of keeping the emblem contained and easy to reproduce. As nice as it is, particularly as a shirt badge, it's probably a little light-weight and lacking gravitas to succeed as the Everton crest.
I was privileged enough to be invited to have a one-on-one discussion with Kenyon Fraser to convey my thoughts on the crest and how it should reflect the club's history, what it means to the fans, and how it should portray Everton's image to the world. The consultation followed the main tenets of the online questionnaire but allowed for more nuanced feedback and guidance of what I would like to see from the new design than is possible with the online survey.
I admitted then as I did in my original reaction to the current badge in May that, given the complexity of the crests belonging to the likes of Manchester City, Newcastle, Manchester United and Liverpool, I'm still not overly convinced of the club's argument that the crest is difficult to reproduce in the digital age. And as a designer myself, I know full well that you cannot control how your mark is used – sometimes abused – by third parties; even the simplest badge or logo is open to being stretched, skewed, cropped or otherwise mangled by media outlets, both print and broadcast.
The interesting part of the current process is that the club's original Crest Evolution justification for the 2013-14 badge more or less dictated that any new crest be self-contained, with no extraneous elements (e.g. the "18" and "78" characters or motto scroll on the previous crest) sitting on the outside that could get omitted in reproduction.
That poses significant challenges when it comes to keeping the famous heraldic shield shape to the crest and retaining all of those desired elements like laurel wreaths, 1878, the motto and the Prince Rupert's Tower. No surprise, then, that the questionnaire asked fans to rank the importance to them of those individual elements – it's going to be difficult preserving them all and ending up with an emblem that is easily reproduced as the club argue it needs to be.
Some interesting alternatives have appeared, some with the heraldic shield shape, others using a circle design
Rumour has it that it was Bill Kenwright who insisted that Nil Satis Nisi Optimum be restored below the new crest on the side of Goodison Park so it's probably safe to assume that much effort will be made to work the motto back into the new design. Personally, I like the aspirational tone and nod to our past successes that a laurel wreath (or wreaths) represent and I agree that the word "Everton" should feature on the badge as it's my sense that it has helped market the club overseas, particularly in the USA recently where our emblem has shown up without much explanation or context on subway cars and taxi cabs. Whether the badge needs to scream "1878" as it does on the current badge is open to serious question; after all, that really only matters to we Evertonians so a small space on the crest is all that is required.
Given the 2013-14 badge's simplicity, the biggest bones of contention for me are the colour yellow (I've never liked it on the crest and the current badge looks 100 times better in just blue and white – see the stunning new third kit for proof), the exaggerated bulge at the bottom of the shield, the fact that the badge is just too big on all of our jerseys this season, and, most importantly, the cheap-looking, overly-literal representation of the tower.
My submitted design, originally offered up in May, also employs a circle to contain all the elements
Not surprisingly, given that it's more or less inevitable that a new representation of it will feature on the new crest, the design of the roundhouse took up a decent portion of my chat with Kenyon Fraser. I explained that with the clip art-esque "beehive" design on the current crest, the tower loses all of the prestige and majesty portrayed on previous iterations. Of course, when viewed up close there is little majestic about our beloved, squat Stewbum's Jug, but that's not the point – previous iterations of our crest have given the impression of an imposing tower; a fortress on a hill and there is something romantic about that.
As shown in the circle-based design that I submitted via the Official Site, I would like to see the return of the fence and a nod to the fact that the tower sits on a hill, on Everton Brow, which is just as much a part of our roots as the roundhouse that sits on it.
We will, of course, find out within the next week how Kenyon Fraser have interpreted all the feedback they have received from some 20,000 Evertonians and we can but hope that what they produce will give us some genuinely impressive and worthy choices from which to select.
Of course, it will be impossible to please everybody and the club have exposed themselves to the danger that none of the options will sit easily with supporters. We just have to trust that those who have been entrusted with designing our club's new emblem and those whose votes will determine the chosen design will do right by this famous old club that we love so much. Nil Satis Nisi Optimum, indeed...
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806 Posted 17/09/2013 at 07:17:52
807 Posted 17/09/2013 at 07:26:17
A sceptic would point to DK as an example of this regime allowing the fans to vote but this issue is completely different with a starting block of huge unrest amongst the local and global fanbase over the Fisher Price badge. Hopefully the outcome from this consultation together with the removal of the previous questionable odious incumbent and replacement with Alan Myers will please far more than it upsets.
808 Posted 17/09/2013 at 07:41:51
It's not necessarily a bad thing, particularly as I haven't yet seen a fan-produced version that is the finished article (I include mine in that - I'm not much of an illustrator) but it raises the stakes for the options KF produce.
It stands to reason, though, that they will inevitably come up with something *similar* to one suggested by a fan simply because of the limited number of available configurations.
811 Posted 17/09/2013 at 07:51:19
I was lucky enough to go to one of the face to face meetings myself, and although frank and differing views were exchanged, I appreciated the effort from the club. I submitted designs, my own personal choice was a slimmed down shield design, an imposing tower circa 1930s with the angled design and fence, removal of the yellow replaced with black. There was a 75 yr old gentleman there, detailing some wonderful players he'd seen, he spoke of the romanticism of the angled tower design and its importance to him with passion. Others disagreed. Its incredible to think of the wide ranging views, younger fans wanting 'The Peoples Club' for example, which caused me to spit out my free oat biscuits!! Haha
I have found the debate fascinating, I only wish it had been like this from the start.
815 Posted 17/09/2013 at 07:45:06
1. Colour - wasn't royal blue!
2. Clutter - too many elements
3. Font used for Everton: too modern, and clashed with the old-style 1878 font
4. the 3D effect (fade - an attempt to make it stand out, but looked crap when reproduced.
New badge attempted to address these, but several major mistakes:
1. Yellow - nuff said
2. Fat arse - caused by
stuffing Everton into the shield
3. Retention of the awful font
4. Worst of all - the bastardisation of the tower - of all the crimes against design this was the worst. 5. The use of black as shadowing - repeated to mistake of the old badge in trying to make it 'pop'.
6. The determination to simplify into a unified design that works for all occasions is plain stupid: ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL !!
When it comes to successful logos - less is more: FACT.
Think McDonalds, Apple, Ford, Vodafone.... If it isn't legible and recognisable even when tiny - like an icon/avatar on a social media feed read on a smart phone, its simply too fussy. But simpicity doesn't mean it has to look like clipart.
We should select a unique and definitive core icon (the tower, inside a shield, with laurels would be my pick) around which different elements can be placed as space and the medium allows.
The idea that it has to be contained within the shield is total bollocks.
Think NIKE and PUMA - always the swoosh / cat, and sometimes the word as well, no need for a frame of any kind.
In our case, having a hierarchy of elements makes sense: sometimes just E F C (shirt), sometimes Everton (but with a classy font, please) sometimes with 1878 and sometimes with NSNO in a scroll as an underline
MilkyOne's effort, while popular, is not very good: Don't mean to cause offence, but the laurels are too big, the design looks flat and lacks weight, and the wordings above and below draw circles of different sizes with different centres, which is a design shocker.
Finally, the designers have apparently been briefed to draw up an original work, but they'd be daft not to look at all the fan versions - there are good elements in many of them. A smart designer will use cues from the best shield, the best tower etc and work them into a unified logo.
Hopefully it will come out right and there will be enough to keep most people happy - but I won't hold ny breath: if the brief is shit, the design will be shit - that's my problem: if they are still telling the designer that everything that can't fit inside the shield must be dropped it will not work.
819 Posted 17/09/2013 at 08:52:16
821 Posted 17/09/2013 at 09:03:00
Re-instate the old one. Job done.
827 Posted 17/09/2013 at 09:38:23
829 Posted 17/09/2013 at 09:13:03
830 Posted 17/09/2013 at 09:47:05
We will still end up with something a little bit better than the present dog's breakfast, but not by much.
835 Posted 17/09/2013 at 09:45:22
Spot on mate
A very significant take on our Evertonian heritage is the unofficial yet deeply true
"Evertonians are Born Not Manufactured
We do not Choose; We are Chosen
Those who Understand Need No Explanation
Those That Don't Understand Don't Matter"
And having some "contrived corporate logo" is wildly inappropriate
I admire our neighbours for adhering to their "complex" crest, good on them, farting about with it simply admits to chasing money rather than planting the banner and declaring that we will hold our ground, for we are Everton
859 Posted 17/09/2013 at 08:42:30
I think some of the fan designs have been really interesting and, whilst I don't like all of the ideas, I commend the creativity.
I also found Peter Leslie's comments above to be interesting, informative and well articulated. I agree with much of what he's said and definitely feel there is merit in the idea that bits of a logo can be added or removed depending on the specific use. Starting with a simple and recognisable main logo, why can't other facets such as the motto ribbon be added in certain uses and dropped for others?
My personal feelings for any new badge are:
1. Shield - I've always liked it and it has for me always been symbolic of Everton. I learnt to draw it at an early age and covered most of my school books in it. I like some of the circle designs but they do ultimately look very similar to Chelsea's badge once the colours are also taken into account. I also agree that at least the main design features should be contained in a shield, circle etc, without trying to cram too much in.
2. The Tower – Another must for me. I think a slightly shorter or stumpier version is more representative of the actual tower. I think the ones in Lyndon's circle badges are a good compromise and I like the slope/fence. I don't like the beehive style and it was, for me, the biggest contributor (along with the fat bottomed shield) to the current version looking like a pre-school effort.
3. The Wreaths – Having grown up supporting the club from 1982, the wreaths have been an ever present, but I would be prepared to compromise in the interest of de-cluttering the badge. I have seen some interesting versions in fan designs that I have liked. Perhaps a wreath could be incorporated, but I would not dwell on it too much if it was dropped.
4. Everton – I am conflicted on this. My preference would be for simplicity. EFC in a nice font (I think the only other is Exeter City in all the 4 league divisions that begins with E). However, I appreciate that unlike Nike, who are instantly recognisable worldwide by the swoosh, we do not have that benefit and from a branding and recognition point of view, putting the name Everton on the badge makes sense.
5. 1878 – I think Lyndon makes a good point about this. It has more importance to us than those outside the club, so IMO whilst it denotes our history (as one of the oldest clubs) and has a place on the badge, I agree that it only needs to be small.
6. Colour – I'm not feeling the yellow, certainly not on the current badge, but then I hate that badge so I'm possibly being swayed. It is possible that a better design incorporating the yellow might draw a different response from me, but for the moment it's royal blue/white for me.
I am realistic about the chances of all of my wishes being incorporated in the designs that come out of KF and I'm prepared to have to accept a compromise or a badge that I don't absolutely love. As long as it's not a badge that I instantly hate (and I have seen many fan designs that fit this description). I too wait with trepidation.
880 Posted 17/09/2013 at 15:10:36
886 Posted 17/09/2013 at 15:37:02
My tweaks largely incorporated your and Milky One's design:
My preference would be still to use the shield... but that does not mean I completely agree with what you've said. I've obviously used the yellow and gradient (albeit I can see that a flat image may be better. Much is down to personal preference, and I appreciate that the club can not please everyone... but the this year's thing is very ugly. As you also said, you would have thought the club would have seen the reaction to the leaked version and back-tracked.
Out of those shown in your article, I'd rather not see 2 or 3. I've filled in my questionnaire, and hope that the club come up with something suitable.
887 Posted 17/09/2013 at 15:50:40
Alternately leave the 1878 where it is on the bottom of the first shield and then just replace the content between that and EVERTON with the tower and wreath from Lyndon's second submittal.
That would make the shirt badge and the motto can be added under the shield on other devices the way they have with the new logo.
888 Posted 17/09/2013 at 15:39:00
Peter Leslie (815) says a lot that I wouldn't disagree with, but when he says "When it comes to successful logos - less is more: FACT" in a thread about our crest, I think he's confusing things.
Our badge (any club's badge) is NOT a logo (FACT).
A logo does a different job.
If I'm driving at night and starving, a big simple yellow 'M' on a red background does the trick and in less than a second tells me 'McDonalds' (so keep driving and wait until you can get to a chippy).
We have NO reason for our crest/badge to have to have this instant recognition factor.
We haven't got that much going for us, but one thing we DO have is our history and that should absolutely not be fucked with or chucked away (particularly when there was not one complaint about it to start with)
Forest and Bolton both 'went modern' and now have badges that look like they were designed by some kid on a graphics course in a provincial art school in 1977 - can we not see this?
I have no fear of the combined elements (laurels, tower NSNO) and the stylish MilkyOne design shows it can be achieved in a way that is class.
Personally I don't believe in having 'Everton' on there as that is actually the job of the badge, to say Everton (ie: when people see the combined elements of the badge, they know it's us - and if after 135 years or since the 30s they don't, I doubt football is their game)
The three/four in the shields are all horrible, amateurish, disgusting gash while the circular ones, though a vast improvement are...circular.
By the way, if I was a teacher and a kid asked "Sir what does 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' mean?", I'd say well, let me give you a perfect example...
889 Posted 17/09/2013 at 16:14:26
Given the fact that I am fully aware that I support EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB and you all do too, who is it that continually wants the word EVERTON in massive bloody letters on the badge.....it looks sodding stupid.
I like the old badge designs from the Hafnia era but I am also a big fan of some of the the circular badges above, the heraldic shield with seperate wreaths has had it's day in my opinion at least but for god's sake drop the ridiculously huge Everton....
892 Posted 17/09/2013 at 16:31:43
I bloody well agree with every single sentiment
Who in the name of all that's decent asked for this to be fucked about with ?
Let me just share an example of what happens to something wonderful when some clown decides (on behalf of ALL) that something needs titivating
Dear sweet baby Judas what a fuckin' mess !
893 Posted 17/09/2013 at 16:57:18
896 Posted 17/09/2013 at 16:57:04
898 Posted 17/09/2013 at 17:10:30
900 Posted 17/09/2013 at 17:11:11
My submitted version is circular as that was the only way I could see preserving all the desired elements while keeping everything contained.
But if a heraldic shield can be produced that is elegant and encapsulates our history and class then I'll be all for it.
905 Posted 17/09/2013 at 17:39:30
As others have said, they are very brave to try this. I just hope,however, that in the rush to get rid of the dreadful badge we are stuck with this season, we don't accept second best and end up with something worse tha the old badge.
930 Posted 17/09/2013 at 20:25:11
I think we should be Everton, with no upper case.
The wreaths need to be slimmer otherwise it looks like corn.
NSNO has to appear, as does 1878.
The tower shouldn't be too fussy or fat.
Our badge isn't massively appealing to foreigners or small kids. I would consider something else to go with the tower as an alternative to a conservative listing.
931 Posted 17/09/2013 at 21:04:45
I don't buy the idea of a design having to be easy to replicate. It has never been easier to print or reproduce an image than it is today, in the digital world. It's not like they have to carve the design out of wood or lino.
949 Posted 17/09/2013 at 22:46:30
"Do you think we needed to make a change to our club crest?"
99% of respondents say no... Save everybody a lot of time and effort.
950 Posted 17/09/2013 at 22:51:53
So before some soft twat thinks there may be a few bob to be had by fiddling with that like "Wicked Uncle Ernie" in The Who's rockpra "Tommy" I want to go on record and state that this is NOT for fuckin' debate
963 Posted 18/09/2013 at 00:32:37
For me my favorite crest era was the 91-00 look which dropped the yellow and went instead for simple but iconic Blue and White. For me Everton are blue and white with yellow only ever being an after thought that we can probably do without other than having it as an awy kit though personally I always liked the white/grey/navy .
But anyway, somebody mentioned the yellow makes us instantly recognizable when caught at a glance and gave a McDonald’s sign as an example. But hang-on. The yellow M probably has the same subconscious representation for something that’s playful, cheap & not to be taken too seriously. Like a Happy meal.
I’d have no problem dropping the shield for a round outline either . I’d more or less plagiarize Lyndon’s first version but instead replace the NSNO with the "School of Science".
The "School of Science" is intriguing and fits with today’s highly scientific world of professional, competitive sport’s be it the training method’s, tactics, sports psychology etc. One of the first questions I asked my dad about Everton was if he could explain what the school of science meant. The other change I would make would be to turn the 1878 to gold.
Leaving that as the only representation of what used to be the yellow. The word ’EVERTON’ should stay where it is.
966 Posted 18/09/2013 at 01:50:45
974 Posted 18/09/2013 at 05:11:41
Was it Catterick who said "we don't need a badge on our shirts everyone knows we're Everton, we play in blue and white"?
It's nice to see over here in Thailand that the new company that has the rights to broadcast the EPL games is using our badge and not the new logo in their studio backdrops.
011 Posted 18/09/2013 at 10:58:39
(I know this isn't about the badge, but it does have a passing connection with the topic under discussion and I didn't know where else to put it.)
047 Posted 18/09/2013 at 13:36:13
I believe our shirt colour and badge is already instantly recognisable within the UK by any football supporter by just the tower within the shield, so I think they should be retained.
However, here in Colombia (where they are football fanatics I might add) when I go to play they shout "hey, Chelsea" until they look a bit closer and see the word Everton.... then they understand.... I can just imagine the hassle in explaining every time I go to play that it's not a Chelsea shirt, it's Everton....
For the international market, it is essential to have the name, otherwise the whole effect is lost, I'm just that English bloke in a blue shirt, probably a Chelsea supporter! I do NOT want that... if I'm to fly the Everton flag I need the tools to do it with!
054 Posted 18/09/2013 at 14:49:56
055 Posted 18/09/2013 at 15:24:54
059 Posted 18/09/2013 at 15:43:00
092 Posted 18/09/2013 at 18:24:32
Yes. The majority of our support is on Merseyside. That’s the problem. We need to get away from that mentality & be taking steps to change that if we want to ever be able to compete with the other clubs in the league of ’our ilk.
Incidentally, All the clubs in the "Top 6" barring maybe Spurs, which itself is debatable, have a higher ratio of fans outside their own territories. To acquire new internet hitting, shirt buying, football rating recruits from all over the world it is counter productive and actually plainly ignorant to assume they will know who’s badge it is when it comes shinning out of their packet of Premier League stickers just because they haven’t been saturated with it from their friends & family like me or You. When Ross Barkley is interviewed after a match in which he’s just after scoring a Worldy Winner against Utd on Fox, Al Jeezria, ESPN Italy, Sky, to name a few. In front of a worldwide audience.
Our name has to be on that star in that moment like Don King is with his arm around the latest boxing star straight after a bout. On that star’s chest. Unless you are from the Liverpool area, or are the son of someone who is, there is a good chance it will take a star player for you to identify with the club as "people identify with people". It’s like the next best thing to an organic or native route to being a blue. We need to create interest by having star players first but, once the attention of the new fan is got, the world ’EVERTON’ must be part of that new landscape.
098 Posted 18/09/2013 at 19:25:32
But that's just me.
122 Posted 18/09/2013 at 21:58:09
Number 4 looks very classy to me. Just my opinion you know, nothing more nothing less, nothing to get hung about. If you don't agree I still respect you as a fellow Evertonian, even if you are wrong
156 Posted 19/09/2013 at 06:48:14
163 Posted 19/09/2013 at 08:55:15
It's a handsome distinctive lightweight number.....the badge that is.
240 Posted 19/09/2013 at 17:23:08
247 Posted 19/09/2013 at 17:54:08
249 Posted 19/09/2013 at 17:57:13
The shield with it's heraldic gimpery and association with armoured hooray henrys on old nags might seem a bit tame.
252 Posted 19/09/2013 at 18:07:27
In my mind, it seems that the PL is going the same way as the NFL, and I wouldnt be surprised to one day see teams changing their names/badges frequently to try and tap into the markets that will ultimately buy the products. Sad, but true.
255 Posted 19/09/2013 at 18:23:42
260 Posted 19/09/2013 at 19:16:55
It stands out on TV and obviously Everton and not confuse able with any one else.
whatever the chosen new design is it cannot be to busy in the current media age it has to be simple and clear....you only have to look at the major clubs badges in europe.
271 Posted 19/09/2013 at 19:04:23
I was looking at alternative designs the other day and couldn't help think that by losing the scroll and keeping the two laurel wreaths and original tower in their normal positions and then incorporating 'Everton' and maybe 'Nil Satis...' within the badge would just look odd, like a cheaper, conjested version of last season's. I've not seen one design that looks good.
The only ones that look half-decent are the ones with a single Laurel wreath with the old tower inside the wreath. It's not my preferred choice, I would like a return to the 1991-2000 version, but in the blue that is on the current effort with a white outline... but seeing as they want everything in one shape then I have to say that so far they look like the best options.You never know... maybe Kenyon Fraser will produce something similar to the old badge that has a bit of style about it... but I can't see it.
277 Posted 19/09/2013 at 19:12:36
I'm looking forward to seeing the not just one, but apparently numerous, options Kenyon Fraser are able to
present in the next week.
Although the club have made (most of) the right noises as regards fan engagement, the painfully tight time scale makes me wonder exactly how much influence fans' ideas will have had on the proposed range of designs. Would it be cynical to suggest that this consultation process has been partly a placebo? I would expect the designers would have their range of designs at least partially developed by the time the consultation closed.
Fingers crossed they'll be good AND popular!
289 Posted 19/09/2013 at 20:06:44
But, of course, that's just me and I'm sure others would love it, which just goes to prove what a risk the club are taking in doing this. That said, I do share your suspicions over the timescales. You can't tell me they didn't design nothing until Monday morning this week. My guess is they started the moment the announcement was made about the binning of the current monstrosity and they will just use the survey results to match their designs to wht has been asked for. You only have to see that NSNO was instantly announced as being part of the we badge.
Guess it will all unfold in the next eleven days......
291 Posted 19/09/2013 at 20:24:58
299 Posted 19/09/2013 at 20:39:02
321 Posted 19/09/2013 at 20:36:41
As for your comments on the club's design process - my thoughts exactly! I'd guess the consultants may have ten or so ideas already partially developed, and the three which most closely reflect the results of the online questionnaire will be presented for the vote. If the designers have got the talents & understanding to produce something which everyone likes then I guess all will be forgotten & forgiven in due course. I dread the repercussions if they produce three designs which no-one likes!
326 Posted 19/09/2013 at 21:18:28
344 Posted 19/09/2013 at 22:29:43
I think the shield is the part that is hardest to accommodate as its an awkward shape. It's also hard to tear yourself away from as the shape is unique to Everton, in football terms anyway.
I'm veering towards the disc and even though it looks a bit Chelsea and also Villa and Man City in the 70's and 80's its the only way to accommodate the laurels, motto, tower, 1878 and name Everton.
I wondered about arranging 9 laurels ( to celebrate 9 league titles ) in a semi circle around the tower with nil satis nisi optimum curving around the lower half of the circle.
There's a lot to consider, it's not as easy as you would think, which is why I think that the amateurs who produced this season's effort made such a hash of it.
347 Posted 19/09/2013 at 23:16:42
Put a small 1878 just below where the laurels meet (same place MilkyOne placed theirs)
Then a NSNO ribbon below.
(need the angle on the tower imo - any flat bottomed alternative could be anything from a beehive to a cookie jar)
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