FA Cup success shouldn”t save Roberto Martinez at Everton

Something I've pondered on many time during Martinez' stime here is this: there is a clear indication of a disassociation between Martinez and the supporters by virtue of the fact that I have never heard his name chanted or sung by the fans.

Despite coming in for his share of stick from some fans David Moye's name regularly featured in songs and chants.

Could it be, that supporters, despite his successful first season, had already sensed a lack of connection with Martinez for whatever reason. If so this unease has now be proven to be extremely insightful!

If I bought a company, the first thing I would do is see if the manager is up to task by cross examining him.

Winning the FA Cup is a major achievement.

All this childish in-house gossip will never change that. There is a feeling from a lot of these posts that there is a wish for Everton to lose, preferably the semi- final, and if not, well the Final.

Why? Because the anti-Martinez gravy train is on a roll (just as the anti-Moyes one was not all that long ago).

There was a "Martinez Out" banner at Watford. Which, of course, got all of the publicity. That was not protest. That was posturing. The brilliant support on that day got lost in translation.

What a fantastic way to help young players struggling with a loss of form and a team with a semi-final 2 weeks away.

What can we expect next? A plane over Wembley with the (à la Southampton anti-Kenwright nonsense) anti-Martinez banners?

I heard that he did talk to RM but after 15 minutes of "phenomenal" and "in the right moment" and "possession and form matter over results," he was so confused he forgot what they were talking about in the first place.

I don't want to hear that.

It puts us between a rock and a hard place. I've felt our name is on the cup but it would surely naive of the board to ignore the reality of 2 poor seasons.

I sincerely hope this rumour is not true!

Pete, I hope thats not true. If so then it totally shows up the complete lack of ambition from the club. If so then its no wonder we are in the awful state that we have been in for the last 25 years.

Hate to say this but the RS put us to shame with the level of ambition they show compared to us. Sacked Houlier and he won a treble in 2000. Sacked the fat Spanish waiter after winning the Champions League and FA Cup, sacked Dogleash after winning the league cup and reaching the final of FA cup, sacked Brenda after he nearly won the league and was still above us when he was sacked.

If one of our managers had won any of those honours they would be feted for decades. We are an embarrassment really and the board are an utter disgrace for not sacking Martinez already.

Moshiri is interested in commercial success, and prestige, and all indications are that he has decided the deluded one must go.

I hope it is sooner rather than later. I would much rather we won the cup under a caretaker manager than Roberto. Somehow a Cup win under him would be tainted after all the bad stuff that has gone on this season.

Roll on July when the grapevine suggests the new manager will arrive.

Come on – it's not that straight forward. It can't be.

I honestly don't think there is a relationship there, a bit like Ranieri and Abramovich.

If it did by some miracle happen, then RM will be in a significant moment come May 2017. The first manager in history to win the FA Cup twice and get relegated twice in 3 seasons – phenomenal indeed.

Luck plays a lot in the cup depending on the draw. The league is what draws the supporters and continuous poor performances should not be accepted. The chairman has to swallow his pride and accept that he made a mistake, and admit that Martinez is not good enough for Everton.

Pellegrini also free next season?

However if we were to win the cup then it absolutely should save his job. Our great club has been too long without a trophy and sacking the man who breaks that duck and who would have a cup record of 2 wins from 4 is not a wise move.

Let's put this in perspective a cup win would be a sixteenth of our major trophies throughout our history. Trophies are ultimately what teams are judged on and the FA Cup is embedded in the footballing history of this country, unfortunately it seems to have fallen behind Champions League qualification as a measure of success, however, in the long term what is more important to the history of this club – a trophy or a (probably) all too brief stint in an over hyped competition designed to pacify Europe's elite footballing superpowers?

Roberto Martinez probably will be sacked at some stage I am of the opinion he does not have the ability to deliver the standards our club should be striving for. However an FA Cup win would represent the closest anyone has coming to reaching those standards in 21 years so shouldn't result in his dismissal.

Kenwright wants the FA Cup like Whelan wanted the FA Cup at Wigan, for sentimental reasons.

Kenwright is on his way out (hopefully not literally) and he wants to be in front of the cameras as Martinez wins it.

He will then probably step down and hand over the reigns to Moshiri. It is a good day out but everybody knows the league is our bread and butter.

Martinez has to go as his Premier League record is appalling. If not, we will be relegated.

If he should succeed (and I doubt he will) in bringing us our first piece of silver in 21 years, then he even deserves to have 2 weeks in Lanzarote on an all inclusive deal, before picking up his P45 before the Euros.

You see... he will deserve his place in the sun!

Oh my God, what have I just said? How can one idiot do this to me?

Sorry, the FA Cup winners get into the Europa League so it's a benefit to the club but I can't cope with the thought of the damage that Martinez can do.

I'd like us to win it but not at the expense of Martinez keeping his job – and yes I know we need to be careful what we wish for. Mickey Mouse would be less of an embarrassment to the club.

I'm all for winning it, why not. I'm all for winning against Palace too. But if we have a new manager wouldn't we be better off a là Ranieri and simply have the Premier League to contend with? Minus a couple of irrelevant cup competitions...

I'm anti Martinez for several reasons, not just the results. His continuous blabbing, irrelevant comments, pre and post match interviews (which I'm sure is just a variation of the same interview but YouTubed to be just slightly different each time).

The 'Men In Black' comment is spot on really. The way he's got the team set up, no Plan B, substitutions, not playing to certain players strengths and complete lack of any defensive savvy. The list goes on.

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone with this and with the discontent shown he cannot stay on as our manager no matter what! Or can he?

Hear me out. Martinez first season was "phenomenal" but was built on a solid Moyes defensive set up. Were we happy at that point? Yes, I think we were.

What if, by some miracle, we were to appoint a defensive coach a la Moyes-esque and Martinez was able to work with that defensive base? Would this change things? Obviously he would have to change his tactics slightly and adapt-is he able to do that? Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning the above scenario but it could be a condition of him staying on.

However, a better option would be that we win the FA Cup and as a successful cup manager the Spanish national side see him as their new coach and he departs for sunny Spain. Now that's the outcome I'd love.

However... If we win the cup and a lot of our remaining games (a huge 'if'!) then its possible that we would finish the league in the top ten, with a cup in the cabinet and in Europe next season.

If all those things were to happen then despite the many painful moments I think we would have to constitute it as a decent if not successful season and one on which may justify giving him one last crack at it.

I don't think it will happen but if it does, and we finish the season on a real high, then I can understand the board wanting to keep that feeling and hope it carries on through to next season.

You'll have Ludwig Entwistle and Bugermeister Mason grabbing for their torches.

Link

Irrelevant to who? For a club that hasn't won anything, bar a few patronising slaps on the back, for over two decades now, no trophy should be so readily dismissed as an irrelevance.

See how irrelevant it is to those fans who will be scrambling and shelling out well over the odds to secure tickets for the final, if we win the semi.

"YES SO WE CAN BE SUCCESSFUL AND WIN TROPHIES!"

"EXACTLY!"

"LIKE THE PREMIER LEAGUE!"

"RIGHT!"

"AND THE FA CUP!"

"RIGHT.....erm I mean..DON'T TALK FUCKING SOFT"

"ER..THE LEAGUE CUP?"

"AS IF! SHITTY-ARSE GAUDY TRINKET!"

"ERM...EUROPA?"

"WASTE OF FUCKING TIME, TWO-BOB CUP"

"SO...WE'RE BETTER OFF OUT OF MOST OF THESE COMPETITIONS?"

"OF COURSE...SO WE CAN BE SUCCESSFUL"

(Nurse Ratched appears with trolly full of pills)

Why do you think Peter Reid refused the 86 bus homecoming after shiesters beat us and banned us all in one fell swoop?

Please stop thinking the Moyesesque loser way.

Having got that off my chest, the facts are that, over his tenure, our league position is on the decline. The likelihood, based on this, is that next season will be a relegation dog fight.

Much as an FA Cup win would be fantastic and, even if we won every game until the end of the season (the latter won't apply anyway) Roberto should be thanked for his efforts and shown the door.

If we allow the FA Cup and the other semi final to cloud our judgement and Roberto stays, next year will be a difficult season, particularly given the likelihood that the quality of our playing staff will be reduced.

Is it just me, but I Really can't wait for Sky to pull the plug, before the whole of fucking football becomes irrelevant!

You don't want Martinez here any longer, I can understand that, but you defend Kenwright all the way. I will never comprehend that, Martinez is much lesser the problem, and soft lad appointed him.

I'm away for a week so will reply Martin, if there is anything to reply to.

The FA Cup isn't what it was. I can name every cup finalists from the last Wembley final between Chelsea and Villa to long before I was born. But how many can go from last year's final... Arsenal and erm... Villa... and go back to the start of the Millennium Stadium era.

If you're out, you no longer care, or care that you're out. The Cup Final day doesn't exactly cause tumble weeds to roll through the shopping centres like it used to.

Maybe its one for a ToffeeWeb poll, and I appreciate there will be people lusting after success at Wembley, but it's not for me.

The Cup could save him – see above and it might (let's forget there's 2 games to get out of the way, eh?)

BUT IT SHOULDN'T.

Only at Everton could lifting a trophy be detrimental to the clubs finances – OK it probably happens all the time in these agent driven days – but surely there has to be a stop to these sort of deals and get back to the old-fashioned way of doing things.

Cut-Price Rom

Having lower quality players than the top clubs could be levelled at Kenwright because we had low revenue but the woeful performances that we've witnessed, the inability to defend against crosses or a lead is because of the incompetence of the manager and backroom staff – not BK. Under no circumstances do I defend BK in keeping this clown off the dole.

What makes it worse under the Martinez reign is that they have for arguably 3 seasons the greatest depth of talent that any manager has had before since Kendall and yet they have so woefully underperformed.

Can it be the players not following the managers strategies, the players not being good enough or the manager himself being unable to permutate a strong strategy over the last 3 seasons?

It could be all three but we all agree there has to be changes and that has to start with a new manager who talks the talk and walks the walk.

We need a team who can score goals and then shut up shop instead of a team that becomes as soft as butter after they score. Yes, it would be nice to win the cup but that doesn't mean the manager has done well as we have seen in the past. Many poor teams have won the cup but it's unlikely this poor Everton team will follow suit.

Maybe the question of should or shouldn't we save Roberto, be more Does a Cup win lay the foundations for future success? Unless you're Man City with the Saudi Royals backing them, from previous winners this century, the answer is probably no.

Correct. I was quoting you.

I understand lifting the FA Cup may not carry the prestige it once did, but it's still a trophy, a tangible achievement, something that will be scrawled down in the record books and be remembered for a hell of a lot longer than a 'best of the rest league' finish.

I find this quote pretty fucking puzzling:

"I appreciate there will be people lusting after success at Wembley, but it's not for me."

It's not for you? As a Blue, how can seeing Everton lift a trophy (any trophy) be not for you? 'Well, i'll begrudgingly accept it like... if I have to... but I'll make sure any celebrations are really, really subdued, just so it's clear that this particular cup barely ranks above giving my scrote a good scratch.'

It rings about as hollow to me as Austin Powers proclaiming that Swedish penis pumps aren't his bag.

The trouble is, Martinez seems to have lost the faith of the players. Baines speaking out the way he did confirmed to me there are major issues within the Everton dressing room. I don't think there is any way back for the manager once you lose the senior pros within a tight knit squad like ours. We aren't talking about prima donna, spit-the-dummy-out superstar players here, these are good honest footballers who have a problem with the manager and his tactics.

Martinez hasn't helped himself by talking bollocks every time a microphone is shoved under his nose either. We can just about put up with it while we are in a decent position in the League, but it grates even more when we are 14th.

Taking all that into consideration, I just don't think there is any way back for the manager, so I won't be sorry to see him go if we win the Cup. Let's be honest, he probably would be gone at the majority of other clubs after last season, so he can count himself lucky he got this season to prove himself. It's gotten worse instead of improving.

Hold the front page!

It's not for me. When we lost to Chelsea, it didn't exactly resonate like dropped points away to Palace. Or who ever we did the week before.

I can only see 2012 all over again when we lost three times to the RedShite in one season, as Man Utd have already doubled us in the league with relative ease.

Bill did what he said he would do and found a billionaire, blows away the 'Bill will never sell' narrative touted on this site for years. This is a game changer, no question. Thank you Bill.

Moshiri didn't buy 49.9% to stick in his pension plan. It's Stage 1 of his plan.

Martinez will go, see above paragraph, he ain't going to piss around with a manager that's not fit for purpose. This was obvious from the day Moshiri bought in (he won't fall for the spin like Bill) and winning the FA Cup will not stop this long term strategy. Timing is the big unknown.

Great to see so many now doing U-turns and seeing the light. Shame it took so long, but at least we are all now pretty much on the same page and as a fan base we can start to exert pressure to speed up the process to rid us of our casino manager.

Change is on the way, exciting times ahead.....

This is Agatha Christie stuff.

I bet it was one of the programme sellers. The plot thickens.

I'd be delighted to win the cup, I'd love to see Jags get the chance to lift it, I'd love to see the faces on my boys when the final whistle goes.

But regardless of anything that happens, we will be wasting precious time if we allow Roberto to remain in charge come the start of the next campaign.

If he wins the cup, he should be told to walk, keeping it as a mutual agreement.

If he doesn't then he should go as soon as the cup run comes to an end.

He's clearly lost the fans, he's clearly lost the players (again); there's no coming back.

Even if by some fluke we go on and win it we cant have another awful league campaign with this man in charge. Half the team seem as if they are fucked off with his philosophy. All well and good if you have world class players but we don't...

Win the trophy and we will be stuck with him for another season. Double edged sword isn't it... Whatever the outcome, he is a waste of fucking space.

Manufactured stats shopping in Russia – how the hell has he got away with it for so long?

The same can be said of Bill Kenwright. Another fantastic servant to the club. We forget that Everton are the longest serving club in top flight football, he played a part in keeping EFC in the Premier League and he's done his best. Like Baines, Bill Kenwright is one of us and did not deserve the plane/banner demanding he stepped down.

Now that's off my chest... I prefer to think of the FA Cup as a separate entity to the league, which I know is not going to be popular with most fans. I want us to win the cup; it's a fantastic competition and 1995 was a long time ago. I don't want our league issues to ruin what could potentially be a fantastic end to a poor season. It would be horrible to think we get the final and there's banners with "Martinez Out" on display at Wembley.

Of course it would be remiss for everyone to disregard our league situation should we win the cup. The FA Cup is a secondary priority to any club's league status; I'm sure with hindsight Wigan would have sacrificed cup success to remain in the Premier League. Our issues in the league need to be addressed... and I'm sure they will be internally once the season has finished.

Moshiri took his money out of a great club (Arsenal) and invested in EFC for a reason. He has a vision and believes that vision can be achieved at EFC. Whether that vision includes Roberto Martinez remains to be seen. He's a businessman and he's smart, it's unlikely he will make any decisions until the end of the season. Whatever happens and whatever the outcome, I believe Martinez needs to be recognised for the fact he got the club into Europe and into two semi finals in two cup competitions – love him or hate him, that is an achievement for any Everton manager.

If he remains the manager next season, then I think the fans need to lay off him and get behind him and the team. We can't have another season with chants of "Martinez Out". If he isn't the manager next season, then we should thank him for his passion and commitment and wish him all the very best for the future.

The smokescreen that was Peter Johnson has long gone so no gratitude from me to Bill. He's turned a generation or two of blues into thinking small and acting small... and so it goes on.

Never get rid or appoint a winner while he has Mr Moshiri around his finger. Even if Liverpool cane us. Again.

Joe managed to win six home league games from his first ten, which included victories over Man Utd and our neighbours and he also led his side to victory at Stamford Bridge.

David Moyes took Everton to a League Cup Semi-final and the last 16 of the Europa League in 2008 and his team ended the campaign in 5th place. The following year Everton competed in Europe albeit briefly and once again finished fifth in the league but also managed to reach the FA Cup final after beating Villa, Liverpool and United along the way.

As recently as 2012, Moyes took his team to the FA Cup semi-final, that season wasn't a great one but by the time Moyes led Everton out at Wembley his team had managed ten league victories at Goodison and ended the campaign in a respectable 7th place.

Even the season that Wigan blew away our FA Cup hopes in the sixth round tie at Goodison, Everton still managed seven home league victories by the time that quarter-final took place and finished the season in 7th position.

There is no question that all Evertonians will be right behind Roberto's Everton team in what remains of the FA Cup campaign, but the only reason that I can see for his tenure to be extended beyond this season is if Moshiri decides to relinquish his shares in Everton and give them back to the previous owners, because there are no signs of any improvement in the performances or results of Roberto's team in the last 18 months.

Roberto hasn't taken Everton from Championship obscurity to the promised land, he has taken a long-established Premier League club down the garden path and is now lost in a maze of his own making – for that reason he should be replaced.

I sincerely believe if he doesn't go win or lose the FA Cup, we will be in a relegation fight next season.

Problem is, Gary, if we all just roll over and let are tummies be tickled we deserve no better.

There are no doubt many mild mannered people on these posts and elsewhere, myself included who are being driven to distraction by the Phenomenal One. There are only so many ways as a fan that you can show your annoyance, anger, frustration, and letting rip on forums such as this is healthy and lets off steam.

So with genuine respect, Gary, I join the majority and wish for Martinez to be fucked off sooner rather than later.

We've been rolling over and bending over for many, many years.

I despair of the post-Sky generation who tell me "It's not a level playing field"; "we can't compete with the money" et al.

They've been brought up to accept mediocrity, the "facts" of Premier League life, 40 points is everything, 4th is an achievement: bollocks! Leicester to all that
I'll be selling cushions outside the Winslow on Saturday – bring a bag

ps: How much are you flogging them for?

However, after that Moshiri is a business man. He is not romantic like Kenwright. He didn't coming watching Everton as a kid , he has just invested a large sum of his own money into the club not because he loves the place and thinks of the glory days but on the basis he is a business man. As such he will want a return on his money and hence wants the club to be successful.

He didn't appoint Martinez. He will do what he thinks will best serve the club and his investment. As such I can't see him sticking with Martinez. He will appoint someone who he sees taking the club forward and seeing some return on his investment.

As such let's win the cup and let Moshiri do what is best hopefully for his investment which in turn will be best for us as supporters.

Bill, let's shed those tears of happiness in May.

I have no idea at all why he allowed Moyes to bugger off whilst still having months to go as our manager. That did my head in. To call it unprofessional is an understatement and it reeks of "second-rate" acceptance. It was an embarrassment without precedent as far as I know.

Kenwright then plumbed new depths when he signed the only manager who had accrued an aggregate score of 74-1 in just fifteen of his worst defeats as well as a win percentage less than 30% whilst at Wigan! That did my head in again.

I confess I enjoyed the first season he was here, until toward the end when the team ran out of steam. It was a omen of what we've had to endure since.

The squad is insufficiently fit compared to others and it is seen to be so. That means that regardless of tactics the unfitness of the players is likely to make the result a negative one. If the tactics are crap too it's worse but it is not the fault of the players. As professionals they MUST work under management shortcomings because not to do so costs them their place as a minimum and that damages their careers and, eventually their income. So like us, they have to endure it, and all the time aware that their careers are declining anyway, but in a "professional" way that's unlikely to get them identified by some other managers as treacherous.

If by some fluke we beat Man Utd, it'll be the first time this season we'll have beaten a team above us in the league and to me that's another omen.... and then there's a visit to Mordor to look forward to!

Anyway..... I might not be bothered by then cos I'm phoning the Samaritans next (joke). Have a great weekend!

It is a big Summer coming up for the club and the biggest decision of all should be the appointment of a new manager. We have to show ambition and aim for the very best, for me there is only one candidate. Step forward, Diego Simeone.

He would never come to Everton you will say. Who would have thought that Jurgen Klopp would go to the RS? We cannot settle for second best any longer.

We have money to spend on the squad and with just a few tweaks he would have us challenging certainly in less that the 3 years that Martinez has had. His players would die for him and he is a winner. Over to you, Mr Moshiri.

I want to be optimistic, but I cant honestly see us winning either game. We could sadly get a lesson from both games unless we discover the Chelsea form.

His inability to change tactics or personnel for different games, is his major downfall. There is no Plan B when the game is not going our way.

This is the best Everton squad I've seen assembled in over 30 years of support, and he can't get the best out of them. I think as supporters all we can do is get behind the team, and try and give them the boost they need from the stands; they are not going to get it from Roberto. Sad.

He is credited with bringing in good signings, but if rumours are true he will be responsible for most leaving as well.

As I have said before and do not like saying it but believe it to be true, if he is manager next season we will be relagated, just like some other team was.

Mr Kenwright does not sack managers unless our Premier League status comes under threat. Martinez wins the FA Cup, first trophy since 1995. Then see you in August, Roberto.

Really... was it successful?

FA Cup glory and Martinez stays v a loss and he goes.... for me, the former. I want to have that winning euphoria again after 21 years of nowt but misery.

But, if he wins it and they give him the push – fine.

That said, and no matter what the rumour mill, well-informed sources and so on, say about it, I don't think he'll be here next season, regardless of what happens in the Cup. Kenwright may still be chairman, but I think that it is now essentially a ceremonial role.

Since then, he has slowly turned us from a Euro-challenging side, to a bunch of no-hopers in the league, and if Kenwright was prepared to come in front of the cameras throwing bouquets over the Chelsea game, by the same token, he should have come out with brickbats over 40-50 games before or since.

Kenwright is just a bum actor, who happens to have gotten his hands on his favourite toy and, unlike Moores, who sacked a promising young manager, who built the first great '60s side, he hasn't got the best interests of the club he claims he loves at heart.

I see above that some regard Kenwright's on-going role as 'merely ceremonial'. Again my opinion (based on insider whispers), nothing could be further from the truth.

Do you really believe Kenwright will be calling the shots? No I think Moshiri will be more involved than that somehow. He's not going to throw his money away that easy.

Roll on the summer.

That said, I note that you have inside information. Obviously I would not expect you to reveal your sources but, in order for me and other ToffeeWebbers to form an opinion as to the accuracy of your prediction, perhaps you could enlighten us as to specific past instances when your onside information has proved to be (more) accurate than mere newspaper or other uninformed speculation.

Now I suggested that so that some hard nosed SoB came in and basically took over the show and eventually Martinez would push off. That was before we got Moshiri's money, I would be disappointed if we go down that road now and staying with the clown manager still in charge.

Ronald Keoman, out of contract at the end of this season.

Guus Hiddink, out of contract at the end of the season.

Pelligrini, out of contract at the end of this season.

De Boer, looking for a Premier League job, has to be attracted to us with our squad and new owner/investment.

Laudrup, managing in Quatar, wasted and just won a domestic double.

Mourinho, one of the more adventurous choices, but he likes the Premier League and if Man Utd don't take him then who is more attractive? Chelsea, man City, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, West Ham, all don't need a manager so who's left.

I would loathe to think Moshiri would accept a manager like Dyche or Eddie Howe.

We have to think big, we are in the most attractive league in the world, we pay our managers handsomely, and we now hopefully have a genuine investor.