Safety advice for Hajduk Split away

Get it done Everton.

Take care of yourselves lads, be safe.

Hope every EvertonIan going over stays safe

Because of the actions of one club?
How do you work that out? ,"English clubs deserved the ban in the 80s"

Because of the actions of one club?
How do you work that out? ,,,1,18:38:30,,213.205.252.255,ok,19648,08/21/2017 18:38:30,JohnDavies,reader,, 841822,35371,toffeeweb,21/08/2017,Kevin O/Regan,kevintoregan@gmail.com,What about pyjamas under the blankets?
Certainly sad that such crap happens. Croatia has big issues in football but so do many other European countries. These guys think they have a right to be violent because of corruption or bad results or the wrong colours or whatever. Cross section of society and football is just an excuse for this outpouring of "emotion" who feel hard done by and everyone else is to blame.,What about pyjamas under the blankets?
Certainly sad that such crap happens. Croatia has big issues in football but so do many other European countries. These guys think they have a right to be violent because of corruption or bad results or the wrong colours or whatever. Cross section of society and football is just an excuse for this outpouring of "emotion" who feel hard done by and everyone else is to blame.,,,1,18:40:59,,188.193.228.39,ok,1654,08/21/2017 18:40:59,koregan,reader,, 841823,35372,toffeeweb,21/08/2017,Steve Ferns,stephen.ferns@hotmail.co.uk,"So he's off to Turkey to join the legend that is arouna Kone!

Arouna scored at the weekend, on his home debut. I wish them both well. Kone never moaned once and always played with a smile on his face. I wonder what might have been had he not got injured and had he scored that sitter on his debut for us.

I hope Niasse goes quick. Lingering here is only embarrassing to the club, to the player himself and it makes Koeman look bad also, Niasse showed he's not a bad player for Hull and not giving him a go, when we're crying out for pace, is not what I want to see from a manager. He should have given him at least one look in pre-Season, this one or last one, and not doing so looks childish.

I'm sure 'Ive seen on another thread that somebody (sorry, I can't remember who) had been in touch with ITV and they had told him that, yes, it will be on ITV4. I really hope it's right as to me it looks like Davy Klaassen is starting to get it. Hope I've not spoken too soon but I think he is going to make a huge difference for us.

My father took me to goodison from the age of 4. But he often had to pick the game on the level of hostility likely from the opposition. I'll never forget one game where I was running back and forth between Everton, Liverpool and West Ham fans. From what I recall any time the London boys came up, our lovable neighbours were waiting around to join in as scousers v cockneys.

So yes. My painful memories are that we did deserve the ban.

What had Everton FC done previously to deserve a ban?

One of my best friends' wife is from Croatia and she is a lovely, intelligent woman, but the former Yugoslavia has a very dark side. Go there now and you'll still see completely deserted towns and villages in the countryside where ethnic cleansing and war brought unspeakable horrors. There is something a bit creepy about that Balkan area of the World to me. A level of ignorance and prejudice like Britain in the 70's.

Be careful my fellow Toffeemen.

If Heysel was just an isolated incident then I very much doubt that all English clubs would have been banned. The RS would have taken the hit on their own. As it was it wasn't and all English clubs paid the price for teams like RS, the Mancs, Spurs, the Arse, Chelsea and ourselves amongst many others that brought misery to European football. Not only European football. Goodison used to be a battle ground many times domestically. The park end was just chaos as fans battled. You walked through Stanley Park at your own risk at night after a game and who can forget the welcome committees we had at lime st for when the opposition fans arrived. This is not to mention international football either.

So to say what did we do to deserve a ban, well you've either got a very selective memory or you weren't around in the 70s and 80s. It had to take a ban to finally get English football to wake up and sort itself out. Football as in a mess. In 1985 alone we had Heysel, the Bradford city fire and the Luton riot by Millwall. Hardly a shining endorsement for English football . Granted Bradford was a tragic accident but it just typified the decay and the grounds and game in general that we all tolerated at that time.

We had 40,000 plus fans in Rotterdam the week before Heysel.
If I remember correctly there was one arrest.

Yes we were a shining light in Rotterdam and the country bestowed praise on us for our good behaviour. The fact that everyone was pleasantly surprised speaks volumes for the fact that most expected violence. Rotterdam was the exception rather than the rule. Can you really not understand why English clubs warranted a ban in the 80s?

It was a politically influenced decision, instigated by Thatchers government.

We hadn't played in Europe for 4 years before the ban.
Are you seriously saying UEFA banned us because of fighting in England?

The Roma fans having a go at RS in 84 was down to the fact that we as a nation had been running riot for a decade and that was the Italians saying you're not doing it again.

This is exactly one of the reasons it took us so long to recover from Heysel as a club, we wallowed in self pity saying we've done nothing wrong, we are so wronged. Instead of looking at how English clubs had destroyed Europe with their awful behaviour we ignored all that and just though how unfair it was the RS got is kicked out. We never planned for when we got back in Europe just complained bitterly and claimed victim status worthy of that shower across the park. Reading some of these comments it appears that for some that's still the case. I'm not rewriting history but it appears you boys are by totally ignoring the decade leading up to Heysel. Heysel was the straw that broke the camels back. What happened in the previous decade is what gor us kicked out, Europe had just simply had enough of the boorish English thugs and Heysel gave the government and UEFA all the ammunition they would ever need.

The much needed clean up of football could have happened without a European ban. It was Thatcher that we collectively were a national embarrassment and wanted to make a point. I guess it worked though.
If it happened now the elite clubs would all go bust as they are so dependent on CL revenue!

It is important that you behave with restraint at all times and you are advised to dress inconspicuously without wearing items that identify you with your team.

A protection zone will be established in an area known as St Johns Gardens. This will open from 8 a.m. on the morning of the game. A bar will be open, Dr Duncan's, and pop-up food stalls will be sited within the area.

The local police tactical units will be very much in evidence and any behaviour they deem to be unacceptable, display of flags, singing, excessive drinking, etc. will be dealt with firmly and likely lead to arrest. Protests are not likely to be effective and these units have been known to use force fairly indiscriminately. Large scale infractions may be met with tear gas.

Be aware that the police focus will be on you and not on the Evertonian Ultras who, despite being led and orchestrated by well-known thugs, will be largely ignored. This is particularly important since you will travel to the city in different groups from different directions and by different means, plane, bus train, car, etc. These routes will be at best lightly policed and you will be at risk at any point.

Buses will be provided to take you to the game. In the stadium you will be surrounded by a police cordon and there will be Ultras to either side intent on throwing coins, bottles and pyrotechnics at you. Remember to behave with restraint. After the match you will be escorted back to buses into the City centre where you will disperse to your hotels and transport onwards.

Don't even think about showing yourselves on the streets.

Enjoy your stay on Merseyside and be safe.

If this is the case, these clubs should not play home games and their fans should not get away tickets.

Long story short: hooliganism existed on the continent just the same as in the UK in the 80's. I think the UK was about five years ahead of the continent both in the beginning and in the decline of it.

"English fans deserved the ban in the 80s." – Oh right, and how did you come to that conclusion? Because I certainly can't remember us causing any trouble on the road to Rotterdam.

But I certainly remember the Liverpool chairman at the time, John Smith, I think, saying it's only right every club should be banned with us. And they wonder why we hate them. Despicable bastards.

As for saying it was just the government banning English clubs, it was just a preemptive strike,UEFA banned them for 5 years. Whatever the problems abroad at the time, if the English clubs/national supporters hadn't rioted for 10 years then you probably wouldn't have seen an up rise of hooliganism on the continent. It's a shit legacy for English football and to try and say it was nothing to do with us or it was only one game that caused the ban is just plain ridiculous.

In the 70's and 80's football hooliganism was out of control in England and it was scary going to home games never mind away games. I know other countries had their lunatics, ultras whatever, but the likes of Leeds, Millwall and Chelsea fans made them look like babes in the wood.

Talking of Leeds, those fuckers almost burnt down Paris after losing to Bayern Munich in the European cup. Maybe that was when the ban should've kicked in. It would've denied the rs a few of their cup wins at least.

I heard a story that Norwich approached Everton, to fight this ban, but Everton declined the offer? Don't know how true this story was, maybe it was just another rumour?

Been to Spain, and saw mounted police, batton charging for no reason, (starting trouble) and how many people who went to Nuremberg, thought they were in a town square? (Preventing trouble)

The German police, actually closed the road to let the Everton supporters have a great party, and not many other police forces display this much common sense?

Talking to an arl Lpool hoolie in town last week, when a few Split fans bounced past us and then started singing. What's that he said? We're playing Split tonight I said. I'm thinking of going there next week, but I've half got the cuffs on cos of me twins. Been there he said, lovely place, but them sly fuckers will be firing flares at yer if you do go.

Don't go mate, they don't police it right, over there. They will run away, once you stand up to them, is what he said, but I wouldn't fucking trust their plod.

Dave,throw the spade away.
English clubs couldn't go to Italy without stabbings. They even perfected the arse stabbing to reduce the chance of serious harm.

Feyenoord and Ajax were throwing pipe bombs at each other.
Did either of them countries get a ban?

Can you give any examples of Everton fans rampaging across Europe.

There were casualties in that purge namely Southampton Norwich etc and possibly us altho we definitely had our fair share of nutters ready to have a go. I guess I saw the 70s and 80s differently to you. You obviously saw sweetness and light with all and sundry applauding politely the opposition goals. Me, I saw gangs of nasty individuals hell bent on knocking fuck out of the opposition fans both home and abroad and fans looting and rioting. That's why it was no surprise to me why every club in England got banned. I'm amazed not everybody can see why.

But Everton were not banned alone. England was banned, and England was banned because the behaviour of the majority clubs. It was not Liverpool alone.

Just because we behaved ourselves for several games in Europe, when we were incapable of it domestically, does not mean that we should have been excluded.

There were serious issues in the 80's John. I will never forget what happened to me, and I was not alone as being a young child caught up in the actions of Hooligans. As a result of everything that happened in the 80s, both Heysel and Hillsborough, we have got to where we are today. It took tragic events to make a seismic shift in English Football culture, to the extent that by the mid 90s, when I got my first season ticket as a 16 year old, the ground was a safe place for me and my mates to travel to unaccompanied by adults.

Perhaps the ban for all English clubs was extreme, and no doubt it hurt us the most, but something had to be done, and no matter which particular event or change it was that did it, there's no doubt that the match going experience is far safer now.

Why doesn't it happen in any other sport?

I went to watch Dundalk v Hapoel Tel Aviv last year and there more police on horseback than I've ever seen before and there were 6,000 supporters there.

I left Croke Park on Sunday with 65,000 spectators and the police were only there to stop the traffic afterwards.

Don't wear club colours? What the fuck is wrong with people? They're colours on garments.

I was smack bang in the middle of the incidents in the 70s and 80s as a home and away supporter.
Most of it was one gang running at another and them running away and vise versa. Most I seen was a black eye or cut eyebrow, bloody nose etc.

Didn't see any repeated stabbings, pipe bombs or deaths.

You using the "the foreign hooligans would never have done it if it were not for the English hooligans" is a foolish comment.
How do you know that?

My father doesn't like to "glorify" the hooligan days, but he has shared a tale or two of what he witnessed from those dark days.

And like I said above, I got caught up in the middle of one incident with the West Ham fans, which as you said, was, for me, no more than "just running" but running for "my life" as an 8 year old, only to be scooped up and then watch as a load of Liverpool fans came from nowhere and battered the West Ham fans was quite traumatic and something I will never forget.

Which reminds me, there was little distinction in those days between Liverpool and Everton hooligans, in that our hooligans went to their games or waited outside, and they did the same for us. Liverpool and Everton often joined forces, especially to batter the London boys, and especially with our tight network of terraced streets.

As a Roman resident and lifelong Evertonian, I think a few facts need to be made regarding hooliganism both in the UK and in Italy. The Italian's call hooliganism 'the English disease', believing that it spread from England in the late 70's but there were signs of it much earlier with no connection to sport e.g. Mods and Hell's Angels.

Until the early 60's young Englishmen did National service which helped to channel their energies. Here in Italy National service finished much later and most men of my age did at least 18 months in the army, carabinieri, Airforce or Navy. This in part is why hooliganism arrived later in these parts.

Italian Hooligans 'Ultras' believe that every English team has its own hooligan element but their version is now more sinister and planned. I was here in 1984 when Liverpool played Roma and remember the Liverpool fans being stabbed on their way to the game yet there had been cases already of tourists being attacked with no links to football, as here the link between Hooliganism, petty and to a degree organised crime are well based and often along strong political lines - communists (e.g. Livorno) and fascists (e.g. Lazio).

Prior to Heysel, scouse fans had never been responsible for acts of Hooliganism abroad, silly idiotic drunken moments like swimming in fountains, but never hooliganism and though I am bitter like all toffees to the impact it had on my club, I still find it out of character of Liverpool supporters to behave in a manner to attack others, some of them are related to me after all. Note there were also acts of bravery by some Liverpool supporters like John Welsh who saved the lives of 8 Italian supporters who were trapped and injured (http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/1985/06/15/dopo-tanto-dolore-finalmente-una-luce.ht-).

Like Everton, AS Roma has some good supporters (many of my friends and lots of their kids who idolise Totti) but when I sat with the Ultra's in the Curva Sud of the Olimpico to see Roma - Liverpool in about 2004 (Owen scored two goals that night), I remember that there were people with their faces covered who didn't even look at the match for a second but were dealing in illicit activities - including drugs which the Police had failed to find while being fleeced on entry.

Never seen scenes of this kind in an English stadium and it made me realise why they tried to keep public authority outside as it was basically an area only controlled by these 'Capi' (‘Bosses') who have been responsible also for the murder of Capo Ultras (head hooligans) from other teams – the death of Napoli supporter Ciro Esposito by the Roma capo ultra Daniele de Santis is a famous case of just how dangerous these people are. De Santis had links with Rome's crime network (Banda della Magliana). Thankfully nothing like this exists in English sport.

Roma's new American owners have tried to resolve stadium safety issues and one of their aims in building a new stadium (Dan Meis) is to make it appealing to families by stopping the home end being used as a crime base.

It's an historical thing. The Romans were a peace loving gang until the English English gladiators turned up.
Influenced by that they invaded wherever the fuck they wanted.

We will never know whether clubs abroad would have been hooligans or not but one thing is sure, before we started it there wasn't riots and looting in the streets of Europe at football. You sound like one of the old hooligans trying to justify why you did it and say it was just a laugh and nobody got hurt. What a pile of shite lad.

It wasn't a knee jerk reaction from EUFA after Heysel. Undoubted that the RS were out of order and some should have been prosecuted for the deaths they caused.

If EUFA tried the same banning tactic now , on any club, there would be so much legal discussions that it just wouldn't leave the meeting room.

Last point EFC away team were no angels. I was never a face in that scene but I know quite a few boys from London Clubs who give our 'away team' full respect.

For fucks sake you have spent two days telling us the opposite.

," We will never know whether clubs abroad would have been hooligans or not. "

For fucks sake you have spent two days telling us the opposite.

,,,1,17:34:23,,213.205.252.200,ok,19648,08/22/2017 17:34:23,JohnDavies,reader,, 842362,35372,toffeeweb,22/08/2017,Denis Richardson,mightytoffee@gmail.com,"Gary 22, to be fair to Mr Bogarde. If memory serves me well, Chelsea offered him a 4 or 5 year contract at (a ridiculous at the time) 40k a week. After a short time they didn't want him anymore and tried to get rid of him. However, although loads of clubs wanted to sign him, he was being offered around 10k a week.

Chelsea tried to bluff him saying if he didn't go he'd be with the reserves and they wouldn't pay the difference in wages. Mr Bogarde, putting his family ahead of his career, called their bluff and subsequently spent the next couple of years with the reserves, coming into training bang on time every day.

Given the circumstances, I would have done the same personally and probably 99% of everyone else would have done the same.

Two sides to every coin...

But getting back to today, why can't UEFA grow a set of balls and tell every team this.

" If you cannot guarantee the safety of travelling supporters and cannot police a game safely, you will be thrown out of the competition.
Likewise if travelling fans cause trouble, the associated team will be removed from the competition".

National service was widely regarded by many as a way of channelling young mens energies, in most cases it worked and in the post war era, where royalist and national sentiments were still strong, there was little if any public disorder.

One of the arguments quoted to me by Brexiteers was that once the UK went into Europe, British values were watered down by the Europeans and that public disorder grew as a consequence. Don't personally hold to this view myself as the issue is far more complicated than that and hooliganism was domestic long before it became international.

A number of them went to gaol for manslaughter

Seems appropriate.

Also read Brian Viner's Searching for the Toffees for a really good read about the Latchford team and life as a teenage supporter from a posh part of Merseyside in the late 70s.

"Allied to that I'm quite sure UEFA were aware that nearly every ground in the top division was a battle ground every week"

A battle ground? I wonder which team I've been supporting since the 50's? I don't recall a "battle ground" every week
What bollocks.

This mythical bloodbath in EVERY ground EVERY week is something I didn't see.

Well, surely, away from the ground it becomes a Public Order offence. Any bugger could turn up for a ruck, whether they've been to the match or not. Did no one ever go to the Triton on a Saturday night? Now THAT was carnage.Loads of lads in there were fans but it wouldn't bother UEFA !.
I don't recall mass brawls INSIDE the ground.
I remember going to Old Trafford in the League Cup when Bob The Pole scored a couple. Outside there were scores of City fans who came just for a ruck, they were away at Villa, I think, and those who didn't go the game in Brum turned up and had a go at everyone . The Press still called it Everton and United fans as the protagonists though.

Maybe I was going around with the wrong people...

Rob hope you have a great time. Split is lovely especially down on the promenade and I found the locals great when I was there couple of years ago.

However that seems to suggest that national service is required to keep young men under control. That doesn't apply in every country so I don't see why it would apply in some.

Ray #54, what's more tribalistic than GAA where everyone has to play for the county they're from, for zero pay. There's no hooliganism in GAA.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/everton-fan-says-hadjuk-split-13519783

A very good video but buggered if I can find it again, well worth a watch, please stick a link here if anyone finds it, I was a couple of seats away with my brother and daughter and popped up on it a few times.

I hope we can play tonight like the RS played last night. Where can we find a Mane?
Good game to watch apart from the result and that Wagner fella looks a half decent target man.

It sickens me when films are made and books written to this day glorifying the hooligan firms of the Eighties. It still goes on of course but we have got a hold of it to a large extent. It was proven in the last European Championships that English fans reputation still precedes us and foreign hooligan elements now see us as a scalp, when the English hooligans they imitate and want to take on are now old men living in the past.

We need to be vigilant against hooliganism, as it is a disease and it spreads. It astounds me that UEFA don't take hard action against clubs who still perpetrate it across Europe and seem to be happy to ignore the lessons of the past. Split should have been kicked out of the competition last Thursday night, and yes, that would have cost the vast majority of Split fans but until that happens these clubs have got no incentive to push these thugs out of their clubs.

Here's to a great result tonight, a good evening had by all and a safe journey home.

It wasn't an accident.

How many had been killed in the "crumbling groumd" before Liverpool played there?

If I was you I would stop reading the mainstream press, it's messing with your mind, and more importantly, the truth!

It was only when the grounds became segregated that it became us against them, it became tribal and not very nice. I know we cant go back to those days before segregation but it was great. Of course no match of the day so you only saw the opposing players once a year. So all the talk would be how good is such and such a player for you and you would ask the same questions about there players.

Oh yeah, also, DO NOT take any exotic Woodbines, there is no tolerance, no street cautions, you will be locked up.

Kim#92. Follow Matt's link to see the video.

Sam #117 - my view has nothing to do with reading the mainstream press. My view is formed on my memories and experiences at the time which are still pretty clear 30 years on. Or maybe the Chelsea Headhunters, ICF, Baby Squad and Birmingham City Zulu's are figments of a messed up mind too. Leeds. Millwall. Lincoln City's "Transit Elite"...? It all looked pretty real to me at the time.

Everyone fans where certainly no angels and had a hooligan element too. All European teams had a "firm". Wrong decision to ban EFC just because they are English team.

I don't see why fans can't sit beside someone that has a differing view from theirs.

Brian, I can also remember the "no segregation", opposite fans would walk around the terraces at half time at the likes of Stoke or Blackburn so that you'd be behind the goal your team was attacking. Lots of jeering and the odd ruck but not much more.

As you say, a lot more interaction with opposition fans because, as you rightly say, the lack of TV coverage meant you relied on newspapers and first hand experience for info on players like Matthews etc.

I remember a match at Ewood Park in 63-64 I think. We were behind one goal and at half time there was a mass migration from the other end by the Evertonians, like a tsunami, up the side terraces led by the biggest Evertonian I've ever seen. No rush, no trouble just a leisurely stroll, unimpeded by police, stewards, anybody.

We won 2-0. Scott and Temple, late on.

Fell off my mates scooter on the way home, but feeling no pain.

I also remember going into the "wrong" end at Stoke and dozens of us just trotted the length of the pitch waving our scarves to join our own fans. No trouble or anything.

Yes, I believe so, it was just the way things were done then. I can't remember why we were up the other end in the first place. But the size of that Evertonian! Not surprised at no aggro.

Yes, they are a figment, although these "firms" did exist, they were nothing to worry about but the clubs you mention did have a really dark underbelly of so-called fans – as did we.

(1) Behaviour of a minority, and
(2) The design of the grounds.

Issue (1) was a big issue in the 70s and 80s, but arguably not quite as big as the media were making out.

Issue (2) was simply to do with design standards at the time, which are not the standards we have today.

There were four (as far as I recall) major stadium disasters in the 70s and 80s: Ibrox Park, Bradford City, Heysel and Hillsborough. In each case, there was an event that set the thing off, followed by escalation of the event due to the design of the stadium. For example, a fire started at Bradford, and it escalated due to the design including its material construction.

In the case of Bradford, of course fires shouldn't start. People should be careful. But fires do start, and people are not careful. As such, stadia should be designed to resist fire, to prevent a fire that has started from escalating. Modern stadia are designed like this, partly in response to disasters like Bradford.

In the case of Heysel, of course riots shouldn't start. People should be more mature. But riots do start, and a minority of people are idiots. As such, stadia should be designed to handle riots, to prevent a riot that has started from escalating. At Heysel, a wall collapsed, the structural design not catering for what happened. Modern stadia are designed with more robustness structurally, or should be according to modern design codes, partly in response to Heysel.

When Heysel happened, the 'authorities' obviously had to do something. The first thing was to try to prevent and deter riots, hence the ban they imposed. This was effectively immediate. The second thing was to review the design of stadia, which has been ongoing since then.

In imposing a ban, the 'authorities' would likely err on the side of caution, not restricting the ban purely to LFC. This would also have the effect of making them look like they were taking tough immediate action to stamp out the problem of rioting.

From this perspective, I was never surprised about how wide the ban was, and although I'm an Evertonian I couldn't get too worked up about it affecting us. Disappointed, yes, but not surprised.

The matter of how the authorities reacted is an interesting one. On the whole, the design of stadia seems to have evolved well in light of these disasters. However, I think there was a knee-jerk reaction to Heysel in terms of the subsequent decision to cage fans in. Caging in at Hillsborough was a major cause of the scale of the disaster. An example of how knee-jerk reactions, attempting to solve a problem, can cause other major problems.

Rather than politicians taking such knee-jerk action, I think it better that decisions be more informed by advice from relevant experienced engineers, who can consider, in a more measured way, potential knock-on effects. Then the politicians can act once better informed.

I remember when fences first went up and Granada Reports had a safety engineer at Maine Road assessing the fencing.

He said "these fences will kill someone". It is only when tragedy occurs that action is taken.