Safety advice for Hajduk Split away

Monday 21 August 2017  142 Comments  [Jump to last]
Everton fans travelling to Split for the away leg of the Europa League playoff tie are being advised to avoid displaying club colours in or around the city before or after the game.

Blues supporters are also being instructed to congregate in a single designated location at Zvoncac Park and that anyone arriving by car, coach or minibus await a police escort to this area after exiting the motorway at junction A1.

The club have issued the following advisory after meeting with authorities in Croatia and are pertinent given the events at Goodison Park during the first leg when fans in the Hajduk section tried to storm the Park End.

Everton supporters travelling to Hajduk Split for Thursday's Europa League play-off round second leg are being given strict safety advice to follow during their time in Croatia.

After a number of meetings with the relevant authorities in Split, both before and since the first leg, fans are being advised by the Club not to display flags outside bars and restaurants or in any public areas during their time in Croatia. They are also advised not to wear Club colours in or around Split before or after the match.

There will be a designated area in the city for fans to congregate before the match, accessible from 8am. The gathering place is in Zvoncac Park near the marina at the end of the the coastal Riva promenande. The address is Setaliste Ivana Mestrovica BR3 and the gathering area in the park is adjacent to a bar called ‘Jungle'.

All Everton supporters are advised to congregate in this location.

Any fans travelling by coach, minibus or car into Split on the day of the game should exit the motorway at Junction A1 (signposted SPLIT) and await a police escort into the Fan Zone. The junction will be accessible from 8am.

There will be bus shuttles departing Zvoncac Park at 6pm. There will be a fleet of buses shuttle-running fans to the stadium from the park from 6pm onwards. The bus transfers are free of charge and will be supported by an escort from local police.

The Club has also been informed that any anti-social behaviour is likely to be dealt with robustly by local police, with supporters facing arrest and on-the-spot fines for offensive behaviour.

Any fans displaying signs of drunken behaviour will not be allowed entry into the stadium and may face arrest. As for all fixtures, supporters are asked not to use pyrotechnics as this could result in police action and arrest.


Reader Comments (142)

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Nigel Munford
1 Posted 21/08/2017 at 17:26:07
Sounds like you're going to be entering a war zone!
Colin Glassar
2 Posted 21/08/2017 at 17:34:09
I wouldn't advise people against going but I'd strongly advise them to stay in groups. These are thugs will pick off any stragglers they come across.
Chris Williams
3 Posted 21/08/2017 at 17:43:50
We can do everyone a service by knocking these fuckers out of the tournament on Thursday.

Get it done Everton.

Take care of yourselves lads, be safe.

Michael Burke
4 Posted 21/08/2017 at 17:55:44
Has there been no action by UEFA for their behaviour in the first leg? I want to bring my little boy to his first game this year, but I doubt it will be a European tie with this sort of behaviour.
Brian Williams
5 Posted 21/08/2017 at 17:56:40
Colin. They'll target groups as well. Someone on another thread saying there's an over reaction (aimed at my posts I reckon) and mentioning how some people, who've travelled away often, know what they're doing etc. That may well be the case but everywhere's different and they may well not have been somewhere like this before.
The official line advises away supporters not to wear colours, to have no flags, in other words HIDE ffs.

Steve Bird
6 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:07:45
Such a beautiful city yet we have to be shepherded around like sheep!

The mentality of their fans is obviously stuck in the 80s. I worry about a lot of our lads travelling independently, we are not exactly known for our restraint when challenged are we?
Dave Ganley
7 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:09:35
This is ridiculous in this day and age. If you're having to receive this kind of advice then really they shouldn't be holding any kind of European game. When are UEFA finally going to wake up and realise this is just unacceptable. If this was an English club there would be threats of bans if it hadn't happened already. There's just no need for this any more. I love football and have followed Everton home and away for many years but this is one of the only sports where this kind of thing happens. I also follow rugby and have been all over the place watching England Rugby,always a great occasion mixing with all the opposition fans, drinking in the same bars and singing songs, never any trouble. UEFA couldn't organise the proverbial piss up in a brewery. English clubs deserved the ban in the 80s and we have all but eradicated it from the stadiums and surrounding areas, it's time that other troubled countries get kicked out and sort themselves out before being allowed back in. The worst thing is is that Croatia is a lovely place and split also falls into that category. People are lovely too. However if you have to warn opposition clubs not to acknowledge any affinity with your club by not wearing any colours or flags then you have no business hosting games.

Hope every EvertonIan going over stays safe

Steve Cotton
8 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:30:19
Is it on TV this time or are we not big enough to warrant coverage...
Martin Nicholls
9 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:31:49
Dave#7 - absolutely spot on. All I would add is that I'll bet our fans are subjected to more "robust policing" than those thugs last week who actually deserved such treatment.
Martin Nicholls
10 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:38:24
Steve#8 - I think last week's game was on Bein Sports which you can get on Mobdro if you install the app (it's free) on android phone or tablet. Picture is far better than any stream you'll find on internet
John G Davies
11 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:38:30
"English clubs deserved the ban in the 80s"

Because of the actions of one club?
How do you work that out?

Kevin O'Regan
12 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:40:59
What about pyjamas under the blankets?
Certainly sad that such crap happens. Croatia has big issues in football but so do many other European countries. These guys think they have a right to be violent because of corruption or bad results or the wrong colours or whatever. Cross section of society and football is just an excuse for this outpouring of "emotion" who feel hard done by and everyone else is to blame.
Gary Cross
13 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:43:33
Steve (#8),

I'm sure 'Ive seen on another thread that somebody (sorry, I can't remember who) had been in touch with ITV and they had told him that, yes, it will be on ITV4. I really hope it's right as to me it looks like Davy Klaassen is starting to get it. Hope I've not spoken too soon but I think he is going to make a huge difference for us.

Chris Williams
14 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:46:45
ITV4 at 7-30 on Thursday
Dave Ganley
15 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:48:50
Hardly the actions of just one club John. The RS was just the straw that broke the camels back. We had destroyed Europe for nigh on 10 years by 1985.
Steve Ferns
16 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:55:58
No John. Because of the actions of the majority of football clubs. We were no angels.

My father took me to goodison from the age of 4. But he often had to pick the game on the level of hostility likely from the opposition. I'll never forget one game where I was running back and forth between Everton, Liverpool and West Ham fans. From what I recall any time the London boys came up, our lovable neighbours were waiting around to join in as scousers v cockneys.

So yes. My painful memories are that we did deserve the ban.

John G Davies
17 Posted 21/08/2017 at 18:56:16
The ban was because 39 people were unlawfully killed Dave.

What had Everton FC done previously to deserve a ban?

John Hughes
18 Posted 21/08/2017 at 19:10:49
Martin (9) I agree with everything you say,
Karl Masters
19 Posted 21/08/2017 at 19:19:47
I love the way it says fans should not bring pyrotechnics into the stadium, yet I guarantee their fans will be setting them off all night long, and nothing will be done about it.

One of my best friends' wife is from Croatia and she is a lovely, intelligent woman, but the former Yugoslavia has a very dark side. Go there now and you'll still see completely deserted towns and villages in the countryside where ethnic cleansing and war brought unspeakable horrors. There is something a bit creepy about that Balkan area of the World to me. A level of ignorance and prejudice like Britain in the 70's.

Be careful my fellow Toffeemen.

Brian Williams
20 Posted 21/08/2017 at 19:28:45
The Croatian authorities have seemingly said they can't guarantee the safety of Everton supporters ffs. Unbelievable!
Dave Ganley
21 Posted 21/08/2017 at 19:41:56
John the ban for all English teams was because the club's had rampaged throughout Europe for over 10 years. They tore up towns and city's and looted wherever they could. Everton and their fans were a part of that whether or not they did the damage that the RS did. In the 70s quite a few Everton lads went with the RS fans to loot all the gear from Europe that you couldn't get here.

If Heysel was just an isolated incident then I very much doubt that all English clubs would have been banned. The RS would have taken the hit on their own. As it was it wasn't and all English clubs paid the price for teams like RS, the Mancs, Spurs, the Arse, Chelsea and ourselves amongst many others that brought misery to European football. Not only European football. Goodison used to be a battle ground many times domestically. The park end was just chaos as fans battled. You walked through Stanley Park at your own risk at night after a game and who can forget the welcome committees we had at lime st for when the opposition fans arrived. This is not to mention international football either.

So to say what did we do to deserve a ban, well you've either got a very selective memory or you weren't around in the 70s and 80s. It had to take a ban to finally get English football to wake up and sort itself out. Football as in a mess. In 1985 alone we had Heysel, the Bradford city fire and the Luton riot by Millwall. Hardly a shining endorsement for English football . Granted Bradford was a tragic accident but it just typified the decay and the grounds and game in general that we all tolerated at that time.

John G Davies
22 Posted 21/08/2017 at 19:46:12
How could fighting in Stanley Park incur a ban from Europe Dave?

We had 40,000 plus fans in Rotterdam the week before Heysel.
If I remember correctly there was one arrest.

Dave Ganley
23 Posted 21/08/2017 at 19:56:06
Your missing the point John, we all had our hooligans and English football was a disgrace. Walking through Stanley Park was an example of how unsafe it was at Evertons games in the era aside from anywhere else.

Yes we were a shining light in Rotterdam and the country bestowed praise on us for our good behaviour. The fact that everyone was pleasantly surprised speaks volumes for the fact that most expected violence. Rotterdam was the exception rather than the rule. Can you really not understand why English clubs warranted a ban in the 80s?

Brian Williams
24 Posted 21/08/2017 at 20:50:30
Everton supporters had been highly praised in games prior to Rotterdam so it wasn't such a surprise, and violence in domestic games has/had nothing to do with European games.
John G Davies
25 Posted 21/08/2017 at 20:53:24
One question Dave.
If Juve fans had been responsible for 39 deaths do you think the Milan clubs would have accepted a blanket ban of Italian clubs?

It was a politically influenced decision, instigated by Thatchers government.

Brian Williams
26 Posted 21/08/2017 at 21:02:25
It was indeed. The FA actually withdrew English teams on the orders of the Thatcher government.
Dave Ganley
27 Posted 21/08/2017 at 21:05:13
Yes and it was all on the back if English fans running riot around Europe for a decade destroying English footballs reputation. As I said earlier Heysel was just the catalyst to ban all the clubs, all the ground work to that point had taken place over the previous 10 years. If you think English clubs wrecked completely innocent in football violence abroad and it was just the RS that had problems then we shall just have to agree to disagree I guess. Thatcher was poison but few could argue that the ban had definitely been coming. The fans played right into her hands.
Steve Ferns
28 Posted 21/08/2017 at 21:11:50
Exactly Dave. Most clubs played a part and that includes us.
John G Davies
30 Posted 21/08/2017 at 21:57:53
What about my question Dave.
Dave Ganley
31 Posted 21/08/2017 at 22:11:34
Well if Italian football fans had been running riot all around Europe for the previous 10 years and robbing looting and terrorising, if Juve killed 39 fans then I don't think the Milan clubs would have a leg to stand on if all Italian clubs were banned. I can't see how anybody, with hindsight, could say that English clubs didn't deserve the ban. Sure it was very harsh on us at the time but looking at it now, it's amazing that English clubs actually lasted until 1985 till they were banned. All English clubs were pariahs at the time. It was highlighted time and again when fans actually did behave. How ridiculous is that? How many other sports go through this? As much as I love football, football hooliganism is just an abomination and English clubs started it. There is no arguement against that. The rest of Europe breathed a high sigh of relief when we were all banned.
John G Davies
32 Posted 21/08/2017 at 22:46:18
The Liverpool fans who were stabbed by Roma fans the year before the ban would probably reckon the Italian fans had run riot.

We hadn't played in Europe for 4 years before the ban.
Are you seriously saying UEFA banned us because of fighting in England?

Steve Carse
33 Posted 21/08/2017 at 23:18:37
Dave, if all clubs were banned from European competition in the 80s on the back of assessments of supporters behaviour then I suspect European finals would have been between the mighty champions of Cyprus and Malta.
No, the ban was imposed purely because of Heysel. Don't try and rewrite history. As has been pointed out in this thread, Everton had little European involvement prior to the ban. Neither did clubs like Wimbledon and Coventry who were subsequently denied the one off opportunity of European competition.
Dave Bowen
34 Posted 22/08/2017 at 01:06:35
I personally think the Thatcher government had little choice after Heysel. However, what had Everton, Coventry & Norwich done to deserve the ban? One club & one club alone caused 39 unlawful deaths, although it now appears to have been airbrushed from their history.
Dave Ganley
35 Posted 22/08/2017 at 07:56:52
Can't believe what I'm reading here. Nobody is rewriting history. Yes the RS caused Heysel and technically English clubs were banned after that event but do you really think that it was just the one event that got us banned. Are you really just going to ignore the fact that English clubs terrorised the continent for a decade? If we hadn't done all those atrocities around Europe, and let's face it fans of all clubs who were in Europe caused problems, especially the national team, then there wouldn't have been a ban.

The Roma fans having a go at RS in 84 was down to the fact that we as a nation had been running riot for a decade and that was the Italians saying you're not doing it again.

This is exactly one of the reasons it took us so long to recover from Heysel as a club, we wallowed in self pity saying we've done nothing wrong, we are so wronged. Instead of looking at how English clubs had destroyed Europe with their awful behaviour we ignored all that and just though how unfair it was the RS got is kicked out. We never planned for when we got back in Europe just complained bitterly and claimed victim status worthy of that shower across the park. Reading some of these comments it appears that for some that's still the case. I'm not rewriting history but it appears you boys are by totally ignoring the decade leading up to Heysel. Heysel was the straw that broke the camels back. What happened in the previous decade is what gor us kicked out, Europe had just simply had enough of the boorish English thugs and Heysel gave the government and UEFA all the ammunition they would ever need.

David Ellis
36 Posted 22/08/2017 at 08:13:31
Dave - sorry I still think it was unfair. We (Everton) had in fact done nothing wrong - we had hardly played in Europe. The fans following the England team were the worst offenders - why weren't they banned ?
I am bitter for a reason.

The much needed clean up of football could have happened without a European ban. It was Thatcher that we collectively were a national embarrassment and wanted to make a point. I guess it worked though.
If it happened now the elite clubs would all go bust as they are so dependent on CL revenue!

Peter Lee
37 Posted 22/08/2017 at 09:13:32
Instructions for fans visiting Liverpool for away game at Goodison Park.

It is important that you behave with restraint at all times and you are advised to dress inconspicuously without wearing items that identify you with your team.

A protection zone will be established in an area known as St Johns Gardens. This will open from 8 a.m. on the morning of the game. A bar will be open, Dr Duncan's, and pop-up food stalls will be sited within the area.

The local police tactical units will be very much in evidence and any behaviour they deem to be unacceptable, display of flags, singing, excessive drinking, etc. will be dealt with firmly and likely lead to arrest. Protests are not likely to be effective and these units have been known to use force fairly indiscriminately. Large scale infractions may be met with tear gas.

Be aware that the police focus will be on you and not on the Evertonian Ultras who, despite being led and orchestrated by well-known thugs, will be largely ignored. This is particularly important since you will travel to the city in different groups from different directions and by different means, plane, bus train, car, etc. These routes will be at best lightly policed and you will be at risk at any point.

Buses will be provided to take you to the game. In the stadium you will be surrounded by a police cordon and there will be Ultras to either side intent on throwing coins, bottles and pyrotechnics at you. Remember to behave with restraint. After the match you will be escorted back to buses into the City centre where you will disperse to your hotels and transport onwards.

Don't even think about showing yourselves on the streets.

Enjoy your stay on Merseyside and be safe.

Peter Lee
38 Posted 22/08/2017 at 09:16:45
Frightening when you look at it that way isn't.

If this is the case, these clubs should not play home games and their fans should not get away tickets.

Erik Dols
39 Posted 22/08/2017 at 09:19:40
I'm not taking sides over the debate at hand but I want to shed a bit of perspective from the continental side. I go to football matches in Europe for decades and in the eighties, going to a match in the Netherlands or Belgium or Germany was a risky thing. Of course not all games or all teams, but riots and mugging were common back then on the continent as well. In the UK, certainly in the new formed Premier League, this seemed to diminish quite sharply in the beginning of the 90s. On the continent, less so. If I take just the Netherlands, fighting in stands was common until the end of the 90s, throwing projectiles to the away end - and vice versa - same story. Funny enough I never felt unsafe at those games. May be coincidental, but a wave of stadium redevelopments all over the country marked a downfall in incidents in just a couple of years. Nowadays, serious incidents in stadiums are close to non-existent. Belgium and Germany the same story.

Long story short: hooliganism existed on the continent just the same as in the UK in the 80's. I think the UK was about five years ahead of the continent both in the beginning and in the decline of it.

Andy Meighan
40 Posted 22/08/2017 at 10:02:17
Dave (#7)

"English fans deserved the ban in the 80s." – Oh right, and how did you come to that conclusion? Because I certainly can't remember us causing any trouble on the road to Rotterdam.

But I certainly remember the Liverpool chairman at the time, John Smith, I think, saying it's only right every club should be banned with us. And they wonder why we hate them. Despicable bastards.

Dave Ganley
42 Posted 22/08/2017 at 11:05:44
To be honest Erik I'm not saying it wasn't prevalent on the continent in the 80s, it certainly was. However we introduced it, we were always the aggressors and we were, at the time, still very violent. The issues on the continent were by and large influenced by what the English clubs had done and continental fans saying you're not taking the piss anymore in our city. Heysel was a culmination of years of inaction by the authorities to take any kind of action to stem the problem, let's face it Heysel could have happened at other times but for good fortune.

As for saying it was just the government banning English clubs, it was just a preemptive strike,UEFA banned them for 5 years. Whatever the problems abroad at the time, if the English clubs/national supporters hadn't rioted for 10 years then you probably wouldn't have seen an up rise of hooliganism on the continent. It's a shit legacy for English football and to try and say it was nothing to do with us or it was only one game that caused the ban is just plain ridiculous.

Colin Glassar
43 Posted 22/08/2017 at 11:24:23
Despite being, even today, angry about the European ban Dave has a valid point which I hadn't thought of before.

In the 70's and 80's football hooliganism was out of control in England and it was scary going to home games never mind away games. I know other countries had their lunatics, ultras whatever, but the likes of Leeds, Millwall and Chelsea fans made them look like babes in the wood.

Talking of Leeds, those fuckers almost burnt down Paris after losing to Bayern Munich in the European cup. Maybe that was when the ban should've kicked in. It would've denied the rs a few of their cup wins at least.

Tony Abrahams
44 Posted 22/08/2017 at 11:28:55
Everton, should have challenged that ban in a European court of law? The fact that they never was unforgivable, and was one of the main reasons I had no great affinity with our chairman of the time.

I heard a story that Norwich approached Everton, to fight this ban, but Everton declined the offer? Don't know how true this story was, maybe it was just another rumour?

Tony Abrahams
45 Posted 22/08/2017 at 12:15:01
Back to this game, and the biggest prevention of trouble is how it's policed?

Been to Spain, and saw mounted police, batton charging for no reason, (starting trouble) and how many people who went to Nuremberg, thought they were in a town square? (Preventing trouble)

The German police, actually closed the road to let the Everton supporters have a great party, and not many other police forces display this much common sense?

Talking to an arl Lpool hoolie in town last week, when a few Split fans bounced past us and then started singing. What's that he said? We're playing Split tonight I said. I'm thinking of going there next week, but I've half got the cuffs on cos of me twins. Been there he said, lovely place, but them sly fuckers will be firing flares at yer if you do go.

Don't go mate, they don't police it right, over there. They will run away, once you stand up to them, is what he said, but I wouldn't fucking trust their plod.

John G Davies
46 Posted 22/08/2017 at 13:34:24
Philip Carter and the Tory connection Tony.

Dave,throw the spade away.
English clubs couldn't go to Italy without stabbings. They even perfected the arse stabbing to reduce the chance of serious harm.

Feyenoord and Ajax were throwing pipe bombs at each other.
Did either of them countries get a ban?

Erik Dols
47 Posted 22/08/2017 at 13:51:14
@John #46 Ajax was banned from Europe when the goalie of an Austrian team was hit by an iron bar thrown from the stands in 1990. Feyenoord was banned from European Football due to riots as recently as 2007. I don't think there was ever a call to ban all Dutch teams.
Dave Ganley
48 Posted 22/08/2017 at 14:57:53
Why do you think the Italians, Dutch, in fact most other countries in Europe started with the hooliganism? It was down to the English running riot for years. Do you think the Italians would have started stabbing the english if we behaved like we should have done? Would the Dutch have become so violent if we hadn't been in the first place? Who knows, conjecture on my behalf but none of them were known for hooligans before we started. You can turn a blind eye to a decade of rioting across Europe if you like but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The Dutch like most other nations can behave on internationals. We never could. We would fight anybody and everybody even easier have other. So don't come the put your spade away, I'm not digging any hole. It's called the English disease for a reason. Just looking for excuses as to why we got banned is ignoring the chaos and misery caused by English fans abroad. As I said earlier, yes it was very harsh on us and Norwich and Southampton etc but to say you couldn't see why English clubs got banned is just silly. Most club sides in Europe and definitely the national team went on the rampage, more so than anything we have seen since from any nation, didn't matter who the English were playing we would destroy their cities. The fact that the Italians may have mobbed up and started stabbing was entirely due to us starting it all in the first place. Talk about rewriting history. You're making it out to be a lark with the boys and it was only the RS who deserved any punishment. Try looking at all the riots the English caused then come back to me.
John G Davies
49 Posted 22/08/2017 at 15:01:40

Can you give any examples of Everton fans rampaging across Europe.

Pete Clarke
50 Posted 22/08/2017 at 15:39:24
I went to a few games in the 90s in Brazil. Sao Paolo v Corinthians, Palmeras v Corinthians, Flamengo v Vasco de Gama and a few lesser teams.
Believe me when I say scary. These nutters will have their own supporters clothes off their backs.
In one game at the Maracana when Flamengo played Botafogo, there was a dispute between different Flamengo supporters of different areas of Rio. When one group of around 5 or more thousand entered the stadium with this eerie war cry, a massive space opened up for them within the other supporters of Flamengo and they made some kind of truce and began singing together. I was told that more often than not they scrap using serious tools.
It was frightening but exciting to watch.
Dave Ganley
51 Posted 22/08/2017 at 15:40:09
Still missing the point John. Whilst Everton were never involved in major riots around europe, as far as I know, we all paid the price for the very active members of RS,man United Spurs west ham etc and all the incidents that went on with the national team. Allied to that I'm quite sure UEFA were aware that nearly every ground in the top division was a battle ground every week with absolutely no sign of stopping. It's really no surprise that we ended up banned from Europe after Heysel. That could have involved anybodys fans.

There were casualties in that purge namely Southampton Norwich etc and possibly us altho we definitely had our fair share of nutters ready to have a go. I guess I saw the 70s and 80s differently to you. You obviously saw sweetness and light with all and sundry applauding politely the opposition goals. Me, I saw gangs of nasty individuals hell bent on knocking fuck out of the opposition fans both home and abroad and fans looting and rioting. That's why it was no surprise to me why every club in England got banned. I'm amazed not everybody can see why.

Steve Ferns
52 Posted 22/08/2017 at 15:50:16
There is very few if any examples of that John. At the height of the trouble, Everton only played the 84-85 season in Europe and there was no major incidents.

But Everton were not banned alone. England was banned, and England was banned because the behaviour of the majority clubs. It was not Liverpool alone.

Just because we behaved ourselves for several games in Europe, when we were incapable of it domestically, does not mean that we should have been excluded.

There were serious issues in the 80's John. I will never forget what happened to me, and I was not alone as being a young child caught up in the actions of Hooligans. As a result of everything that happened in the 80s, both Heysel and Hillsborough, we have got to where we are today. It took tragic events to make a seismic shift in English Football culture, to the extent that by the mid 90s, when I got my first season ticket as a 16 year old, the ground was a safe place for me and my mates to travel to unaccompanied by adults.

Perhaps the ban for all English clubs was extreme, and no doubt it hurt us the most, but something had to be done, and no matter which particular event or change it was that did it, there's no doubt that the match going experience is far safer now.

Shane Corcoran
53 Posted 22/08/2017 at 16:15:41
The connection between hooiganism and football is a strange one.

Why doesn't it happen in any other sport?

I went to watch Dundalk v Hapoel Tel Aviv last year and there more police on horseback than I've ever seen before and there were 6,000 supporters there.

I left Croke Park on Sunday with 65,000 spectators and the police were only there to stop the traffic afterwards.

Don't wear club colours? What the fuck is wrong with people? They're colours on garments.

Ray Robinson
54 Posted 22/08/2017 at 16:38:29
Often wondered that myself Shane but no other sport encapsulates tribalism like football. The closest sport to it in my opinion is rugby league and it is not unknown, despite its family appeal, for things to kick off at rugby matches.
John G Davies
55 Posted 22/08/2017 at 16:39:26
And your still talking plums Dave.

I was smack bang in the middle of the incidents in the 70s and 80s as a home and away supporter.
Most of it was one gang running at another and them running away and vise versa. Most I seen was a black eye or cut eyebrow, bloody nose etc.

Didn't see any repeated stabbings, pipe bombs or deaths.

You using the "the foreign hooligans would never have done it if it were not for the English hooligans" is a foolish comment.
How do you know that?

Steve Ferns
56 Posted 22/08/2017 at 16:52:34
Are you being totally honest there John? Perhaps, like my father you didn't like the violence in the 70s and 80s and tried to avoid it. My father tells me that it was nigh on impossible. One harrowing tale he tells is of going to the City Ground and my uncle having to fight his way across the bridge that was the only way that led into the ground. Apparently the Police just watched as the Everton fans leathered the Forest fans.

My father doesn't like to "glorify" the hooligan days, but he has shared a tale or two of what he witnessed from those dark days.

And like I said above, I got caught up in the middle of one incident with the West Ham fans, which as you said, was, for me, no more than "just running" but running for "my life" as an 8 year old, only to be scooped up and then watch as a load of Liverpool fans came from nowhere and battered the West Ham fans was quite traumatic and something I will never forget.

Which reminds me, there was little distinction in those days between Liverpool and Everton hooligans, in that our hooligans went to their games or waited outside, and they did the same for us. Liverpool and Everton often joined forces, especially to batter the London boys, and especially with our tight network of terraced streets.

Aidan Baker
57 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:01:19
First and foremost keep safe fellow toffees on your way to Split.

As a Roman resident and lifelong Evertonian, I think a few facts need to be made regarding hooliganism both in the UK and in Italy. The Italian's call hooliganism 'the English disease', believing that it spread from England in the late 70's but there were signs of it much earlier with no connection to sport e.g. Mods and Hell’s Angels.

Until the early 60's young Englishmen did National service which helped to channel their energies. Here in Italy National service finished much later and most men of my age did at least 18 months in the army, carabinieri, Airforce or Navy. This in part is why hooliganism arrived later in these parts.

Italian Hooligans 'Ultras' believe that every English team has its own hooligan element but their version is now more sinister and planned. I was here in 1984 when Liverpool played Roma and remember the Liverpool fans being stabbed on their way to the game yet there had been cases already of tourists being attacked with no links to football, as here the link between Hooliganism, petty and to a degree organised crime are well based and often along strong political lines - communists (e.g. Livorno) and fascists (e.g. Lazio).

Prior to Heysel, scouse fans had never been responsible for acts of Hooliganism abroad, silly idiotic drunken moments like swimming in fountains, but never hooliganism and though I am bitter like all toffees to the impact it had on my club, I still find it out of character of Liverpool supporters to behave in a manner to attack others, some of them are related to me after all. Note there were also acts of bravery by some Liverpool supporters like John Welsh who saved the lives of 8 Italian supporters who were trapped and injured (

Like Everton, AS Roma has some good supporters (many of my friends and lots of their kids who idolise Totti) but when I sat with the Ultra's in the Curva Sud of the Olimpico to see Roma - Liverpool in about 2004 (Owen scored two goals that night), I remember that there were people with their faces covered who didn't even look at the match for a second but were dealing in illicit activities - including drugs which the Police had failed to find while being fleeced on entry.

Never seen scenes of this kind in an English stadium and it made me realise why they tried to keep public authority outside as it was basically an area only controlled by these 'Capi' (‘Bosses’) who have been responsible also for the murder of Capo Ultras (head hooligans) from other teams – the death of Napoli supporter Ciro Esposito by the Roma capo ultra Daniele de Santis is a famous case of just how dangerous these people are. De Santis had links with Rome’s crime network (Banda della Magliana). Thankfully nothing like this exists in English sport.

Roma's new American owners have tried to resolve stadium safety issues and one of their aims in building a new stadium (Dan Meis) is to make it appealing to families by stopping the home end being used as a crime base.

Steve Ferns
58 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:04:26
Enlightening Aidan.
Shane Corcoran
59 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:09:01
Aidan, I'm missing the link between service and hooliganism.
John G Davies
60 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:16:37
It's all down to the English Aiden.

It's an historical thing. The Romans were a peace loving gang until the English English gladiators turned up.
Influenced by that they invaded wherever the fuck they wanted.

Dave Ganley
61 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:25:12
Pointless discussing it anymore John. Violence in the 70s and 80s was just a bloody nose or black eye? Tell that to the arsenal fan beat to death or the west ham fan stabbed to death in fights with millwall. I think it's you who's talking plums on how violent it was or wasn't. You make it sound like it was just a bunch of lads in a playground. Nothing could be further from the truth especially in the 80s.

We will never know whether clubs abroad would have been hooligans or not but one thing is sure, before we started it there wasn't riots and looting in the streets of Europe at football. You sound like one of the old hooligans trying to justify why you did it and say it was just a laugh and nobody got hurt. What a pile of shite lad.

James Hughes
62 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:31:34
John G. it was repeated bad behaviour by English fans that got us all banned. We had been repeatedly warned that English fans were putting our continued participation in danger.

It wasn't a knee jerk reaction from EUFA after Heysel. Undoubted that the RS were out of order and some should have been prosecuted for the deaths they caused.

If EUFA tried the same banning tactic now , on any club, there would be so much legal discussions that it just wouldn't leave the meeting room.

Last point EFC away team were no angels. I was never a face in that scene but I know quite a few boys from London Clubs who give our 'away team' full respect.

John G Davies
63 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:34:23
" We will never know whether clubs abroad would have been hooligans or not. "

For fucks sake you have spent two days telling us the opposite.

Dave Lynch
64 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:35:00
My best mate lived in France (Nice) in the early 80's and trust me, violence in football was very much alive then.

But getting back to today, why can't UEFA grow a set of balls and tell every team this.

" If you cannot guarantee the safety of travelling supporters and cannot police a game safely, you will be thrown out of the competition.
Likewise if travelling fans cause trouble, the associated team will be removed from the competition".

Aidan Baker
65 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:40:16
Shane (59) do actually know what National Service is?

National service was widely regarded by many as a way of channelling young mens energies, in most cases it worked and in the post war era, where royalist and national sentiments were still strong, there was little if any public disorder.

One of the arguments quoted to me by Brexiteers was that once the UK went into Europe, British values were watered down by the Europeans and that public disorder grew as a consequence. Don't personally hold to this view myself as the issue is far more complicated than that and hooliganism was domestic long before it became international.

John G Davies
66 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:44:21
James 62.

A number of them went to gaol for manslaughter

David Pearl
67 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:47:40
They can't guarantee safety ? This is advertising their city, their people. Are they not ashamed? What do their other fans think? Or the clubs owners. It should be up to them to get rid of this problem. We have things called cameras, they are all well known so why not lock them up. I don't get it. Although I also can't understand why we are still paying 20% more at service stations up and down the country.
Dave Ganley
68 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:49:13
We will never know if they would have been hooligans if we hadn't started it in the late 60s/70s and followed suit .ffs John you knew what I meant, stop being obtuse
Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
69 Posted 22/08/2017 at 17:59:34
Amazed nobody has picked up on the name of the bar where supporters are to congregate. The Jungle.

Seems appropriate.

Also read Brian Viner's Searching for the Toffees for a really good read about the Latchford team and life as a teenage supporter from a posh part of Merseyside in the late 70s.

Ray Roche
70 Posted 22/08/2017 at 18:05:03
Dave Ganley #51

"Allied to that I'm quite sure UEFA were aware that nearly every ground in the top division was a battle ground every week"

A battle ground? I wonder which team I've been supporting since the 50's? I don't recall a "battle ground" every week
What bollocks.

John G Davies
71 Posted 22/08/2017 at 18:23:08
Dave, you don't know what you mean yourself. What chance have I got.

This mythical bloodbath in EVERY ground EVERY week is something I didn't see.

Ray Robinson
72 Posted 22/08/2017 at 18:23:56
Ray #70, the ground may not have been a battleground (although I do remember the corner of the Paddock near the Park End being where our "ultras" congregated), however Priory Road and Stanley Park frequently were! I had to jump the wall into Anfield Cemetery on more than occasion to escape rampaging hordes. Buses on Priory Road with visiting supporters were frequently targeted with bricks. Bomb Alley is what we called it! I've seen a few running battles on Walton Hall in the seventies too - particularly when Man Utd came to Goodison. Horrible times!
Paul A Smith
73 Posted 22/08/2017 at 18:32:18
Be safe blues. Enjoy your trip.
Ray Roche
74 Posted 22/08/2017 at 20:24:47

Well, surely, away from the ground it becomes a Public Order offence. Any bugger could turn up for a ruck, whether they've been to the match or not. Did no one ever go to the Triton on a Saturday night? Now THAT was carnage.Loads of lads in there were fans but it wouldn't bother UEFA !.
I don't recall mass brawls INSIDE the ground.
I remember going to Old Trafford in the League Cup when Bob The Pole scored a couple. Outside there were scores of City fans who came just for a ruck, they were away at Villa, I think, and those who didn't go the game in Brum turned up and had a go at everyone . The Press still called it Everton and United fans as the protagonists though.

Maybe I was going around with the wrong people...

Rob Halligan
75 Posted 22/08/2017 at 20:50:06
Arrived in Split this afternoon. Amazing place. Down at the promenade at the moment which is bouncing. Spoken to a few locals who have said we've have absolutely nothing to fear. Of course this could all change on Thursday after the match, but as the ground is not that far from the promenade, probably not more than a 10 minute walk and I assume the promenade area will be heaving after the game, the police will not want any trouble in the area, which is full of tourists. So as I say, at the moment it looks pretty hopeful of being a safe night.
James Hughes
76 Posted 22/08/2017 at 20:52:36
John #66 . I am embarrassed to say that I had completely forgotten that.
Rob Halligan
77 Posted 22/08/2017 at 20:54:54
Nigel # 1. Sounds like you're still sat on your arse at home mate. Do you have any intention of coming out to Split? No, thought not. No way Is this going to be a war zone.
Geoff Lambert
79 Posted 22/08/2017 at 21:31:15
Rob stay safe mate and enjoy.
Keep us updated.
Dave Ganley
80 Posted 22/08/2017 at 21:44:08
Like Ray I remember the park end being a battle ground. I used to get taken into the paddock underneath the main stand near the park end. For some stupid reason they used to allow home fans in there with the away fans and have a line of stewards/police down the middle. Many a battle was had in there. Leeds, Newcastle Chelsea etc only time there was just away fans was when they brought a load like the mancs RS etc when they filled team park end. Was quite frightening as a kid watching that go on.

Rob hope you have a great time. Split is lovely especially down on the promenade and I found the locals great when I was there couple of years ago.

Dick Fearon
81 Posted 22/08/2017 at 21:53:08
As far back as the 60s England had thugs who used football as an excuse to riot.
I remember disgusting scenes at Maine Rd, Sheffield, Old Trafford, and little old Burnley.
It sometimes seemed the police enjoyed the biffo more than the fans. That was particularly evident at Goodison when Bristol Rovers came for a cup game.

Ray Robinson
82 Posted 22/08/2017 at 22:06:10
Dick, funny you should mention Burnley. My best mate is a Claret fan and I remember being down the side in the early seventies in with the Burnley supporters being pelted with all sorts from the other side of a rope by my own fans!. Yes, a rope and a thin line of police was all that separated the two sets of fans! That terrace is now a smart new stand and the away fans are housed behind one of the goals but even that end is only flimsily segregated!
Shane Corcoran
83 Posted 22/08/2017 at 23:01:04
Aidan, that's what I thought you meant.

However that seems to suggest that national service is required to keep young men under control. That doesn't apply in every country so I don't see why it would apply in some.

Ray #54, what's more tribalistic than GAA where everyone has to play for the county they're from, for zero pay. There's no hooliganism in GAA.

Ron Sear
84 Posted 23/08/2017 at 16:03:00
Can't help being amused by one or two of the comments regarding National Service or military service as a safety valve. They are obviously too young to be aware of what saturday night in an English garrison town was like in the fifties.
Lev Vellene
85 Posted 23/08/2017 at 17:03:51
If you can get your hands on a copy, I'd recommend a book from around 1990-92: Among the thugs, by Bill Buford. I read it around that time, so the details are not too clear now, but I remember it was about his own experiences following hooligans around the UK and Europe. I think he was an American journalist living in England, and he got close with several hooligan groups in the mid-80's.
Jeff Spiers
86 Posted 23/08/2017 at 18:40:34
So Everton fans have been advised(?) to meet at the Jungle. No colours, no banners etc. Any Split dickhead will know where we are!
Brian Williams
87 Posted 23/08/2017 at 18:41:52
And so it begins...

Brian Wilkinson
88 Posted 23/08/2017 at 20:15:10
Brian, said last week should have been forced to play behind closed doors, be too little too late tomorrow, cannot wait for the game to finish and our supporters safely back home again.
Brian Williams
89 Posted 23/08/2017 at 20:18:19
Same here, mate.
Dermot Byrne
90 Posted 23/08/2017 at 20:32:36
I bet great Croatians will say "Svi mrzimo ljude"
Brian Wilkinson
91 Posted 23/08/2017 at 20:54:26
Someone videos most of the match from his mobile phone in the Park Stand, it was posted on Grand Old Team with the guy with long hair, moustache and I think sunglasses. I watched it last night from travelling to the game to him running out of fudges at half-time.

A very good video but buggered if I can find it again, well worth a watch, please stick a link here if anyone finds it, I was a couple of seats away with my brother and daughter and popped up on it a few times.

Kim Vivian
92 Posted 23/08/2017 at 20:57:39
Brian (#91) – very sorry if it's just me, mate, but what the fuck are you on about?
Brian Williams
93 Posted 23/08/2017 at 21:02:05
Just you, Kim. I know what he's on about.
Mike Gaynes
94 Posted 23/08/2017 at 21:29:31
Rob #75, thanks for the update... and have a fantastic time!
Brian Williams
95 Posted 23/08/2017 at 21:37:51
Other Evertonians haven't been as lucky as Rob. Let's just beat them and get the hell out of there!
Brian Wilkinson
96 Posted 23/08/2017 at 21:48:58
Kim it's a guy who goes the games, videos himself setting off to the game, videos big parts of the match and gives an intake of the action, he has it on video off them kicking off and the reactions, better footage than anything I have seen. Quite funny in parts when he runs out of fudges to eat and better than Alan Smith or Andy Townsend views.
Brian Wilkinson
97 Posted 23/08/2017 at 21:50:11
Stay safe Rob and safe journey home.
Brian Williams
98 Posted 23/08/2017 at 21:51:06
Brian. D'yer think his hair and muzzy are real?????
Brian Wilkinson
99 Posted 23/08/2017 at 22:17:31
Looked real to me but I was about 4 seats away, doing my head in not being able to find it again, need to see it again but pretty good false tash if it was not real.
Rob Halligan
100 Posted 23/08/2017 at 22:22:09
So far it's been Okay. We've been down by the promenade and it's been sound. Plenty of locals saying we'll be folk.
Brian Williams
101 Posted 23/08/2017 at 22:22:52
Think it was on Grand Old Team?
Rob Halligan
102 Posted 23/08/2017 at 22:24:32
Even ok.!!
Brian Wilkinson
103 Posted 23/08/2017 at 23:07:50
Enjoy Rob, hope all passes well, can't wait to see you all back safe and sound, sorry for us worrying.
Brian Wilkinson
104 Posted 23/08/2017 at 23:10:09
They must have removed it Brian, cannot find it anymore on grand old team.
David Currie
107 Posted 24/08/2017 at 06:48:10
Liverpool should have been banned from Europe and no one else, they caused it. Thatcher was useless.
Kim Vivian
108 Posted 24/08/2017 at 07:43:36
Ah - get it Brian, cool. Thanks for the dumbing down! Shame it's not around any more. I'd like to have watched that.

I hope we can play tonight like the RS played last night. Where can we find a Mane?
Good game to watch apart from the result and that Wagner fella looks a half decent target man.

Alan J Thompson
109 Posted 24/08/2017 at 08:03:58
This in a town where most fights started with, "What are you looking at!?!" Where "football specials", trains to away games, were stopped owing to vandalism. Anyone remember being told to draw the blinds on trains arriving in Manchester to try to deter objects being thrown at the train and being locked in the ground for an hour after the game to allow the police to disperse home fans.
Errm, Happy Days?
Colin Gee
110 Posted 24/08/2017 at 08:18:42
Currently sat in an Internet cafe in Split, the sun is out, loads of tourists about. Nice and peaceful. What is will be like in 12 hours time is another matter. Hopefully it will be full of happy blues.
No sign of any reception committee waiting for me as I got off the overnight train from Zagreb.
Mike Green
111 Posted 24/08/2017 at 08:47:46
English football in the '80s was a mess. Heysel was an accident waiting to happen and the culmination of years of public disorder by English football fans home and abroad. That day 39 people were killed as a direct result of the behaviour of English football fans. Liverpool were in no way unique. Substitute them with any number of clubs and sooner or later the result would have been the same. We had fences in almost every ground in the country to try and contain and control hooliganism but it was worse than ever. The ban was undeniably harsh but we have to remember 39 people died and 600 were injured. Yes, the finger can be pointed at crumbling stadium and other factors and yes, teams with good records were unfairly punished but the bottom line is there were too many English clubs that couldn't be trusted that a blanket ban was imposed until we got our house in order. If that decision led to there not being a repeat of Heysel on foreign soil then it was a good one.

It sickens me when films are made and books written to this day glorifying the hooligan firms of the Eighties. It still goes on of course but we have got a hold of it to a large extent. It was proven in the last European Championships that English fans reputation still precedes us and foreign hooligan elements now see us as a scalp, when the English hooligans they imitate and want to take on are now old men living in the past.

We need to be vigilant against hooliganism, as it is a disease and it spreads. It astounds me that UEFA don't take hard action against clubs who still perpetrate it across Europe and seem to be happy to ignore the lessons of the past. Split should have been kicked out of the competition last Thursday night, and yes, that would have cost the vast majority of Split fans but until that happens these clubs have got no incentive to push these thugs out of their clubs.

Here's to a great result tonight, a good evening had by all and a safe journey home.

Brian Williams
112 Posted 24/08/2017 at 09:08:48
Apolgies mate, looking back my reply looks a bit curt. Was on the way out and did it quick.
It was a video of a guy who goes to the match regularly and films his matchday experience, journey the lot.
I thought it was a joke at first as he has mad hair and a big "Village People 70's" moustache.
Can't seem to find it anywhere now.
Ray Robinson
113 Posted 24/08/2017 at 09:31:44
Totally agree Mike #111. Wise words. Tough on us though. I'd been in Rotterdam just a fortnight before and there hadn't been a hint of any trouble. The ban after Heysel cost us more than any other club, I think but it was the correct decision at the time in my opinion.
John G Davies
114 Posted 24/08/2017 at 09:42:05
Mike 111,

It wasn't an accident.

How many had been killed in the "crumbling groumd" before Liverpool played there?

Mike Green
115 Posted 24/08/2017 at 09:47:34
What's your point John?
John G Davies
116 Posted 24/08/2017 at 10:57:34
My point is Mike it is often called "an accident", it wasn't. People were convicted in a court of law of causing the deaths.

Sam Barrett
117 Posted 24/08/2017 at 11:13:27
I've heard it all now! Not only has Heysel history been rewritten by the RS press as if it didn't even happen, there are Evertonians saying the ban was correct!!

If I was you I would stop reading the mainstream press, it's messing with your mind, and more importantly, the truth!

Brian Harrison
118 Posted 24/08/2017 at 11:42:36
I am old enough to have gone to games were there was no segregation of the fans. I used to travel to most away grounds and you could go in any entrance, there was no crowd trouble, maybe if someone threw a punch both sets of supporters at that time would stop any trouble.

It was only when the grounds became segregated that it became us against them, it became tribal and not very nice. I know we cant go back to those days before segregation but it was great. Of course no match of the day so you only saw the opposing players once a year. So all the talk would be how good is such and such a player for you and you would ask the same questions about there players.

Matt Traynor
119 Posted 24/08/2017 at 11:45:48
Brian #112, Enjoy Link
Terry Underwood
120 Posted 24/08/2017 at 11:49:50
I have been to Split and believe me, the cops are more than happy to get stuck in with batons and boots, dogs etc. take care and be safe.

Oh yeah, also, DO NOT take any exotic Woodbines, there is no tolerance, no street cautions, you will be locked up.

Brian Williams
121 Posted 24/08/2017 at 11:56:25
Cheers Matt. Still laugh when I see that muzzy!!!

Kim#92. Follow Matt's link to see the video.

Mike Green
123 Posted 24/08/2017 at 12:21:21
John #116 - fair point, perhaps the wrong turn of phrase.

Sam #117 - my view has nothing to do with reading the mainstream press. My view is formed on my memories and experiences at the time which are still pretty clear 30 years on. Or maybe the Chelsea Headhunters, ICF, Baby Squad and Birmingham City Zulu's are figments of a messed up mind too. Leeds. Millwall. Lincoln City's "Transit Elite"...? It all looked pretty real to me at the time.

Sam Barrett
124 Posted 24/08/2017 at 12:52:03
Mike, what has any of that got to do with Everton getting banned from a competition through no fault of their own mate? Guilty by association? Just don't get it.

Everyone fans where certainly no angels and had a hooligan element too. All European teams had a "firm". Wrong decision to ban EFC just because they are English team.

Sam Barrett
125 Posted 24/08/2017 at 12:58:55
Should say "Everton fans"
Brian Wilkinson
126 Posted 24/08/2017 at 13:39:29
Matt@112, what a legend, cheers for the link.
Shane Corcoran
127 Posted 24/08/2017 at 14:13:48
Brian, #118, interesting point about the segregation. I never knew that there once was none. Any idea when it changed?

I don't see why fans can't sit beside someone that has a differing view from theirs.

Brian Wilkinson
128 Posted 24/08/2017 at 15:28:48
Another 4 fans set upon at 12.30 today, police have arrested the people involved, stay safe Blues.
Ray Roche
129 Posted 24/08/2017 at 17:15:35
Brian Harrison (#118),

Brian, I can also remember the "no segregation", opposite fans would walk around the terraces at half time at the likes of Stoke or Blackburn so that you'd be behind the goal your team was attacking. Lots of jeering and the odd ruck but not much more.

As you say, a lot more interaction with opposition fans because, as you rightly say, the lack of TV coverage meant you relied on newspapers and first hand experience for info on players like Matthews etc.

Chris Williams
130 Posted 24/08/2017 at 17:51:28

I remember a match at Ewood Park in 63-64 I think. We were behind one goal and at half time there was a mass migration from the other end by the Evertonians, like a tsunami, up the side terraces led by the biggest Evertonian I've ever seen. No rush, no trouble just a leisurely stroll, unimpeded by police, stewards, anybody.

We won 2-0. Scott and Temple, late on.

Fell off my mates scooter on the way home, but feeling no pain.

Ray Roche
131 Posted 24/08/2017 at 18:01:54
Chris, I can remember that too! Didn't the Blackburn fans do the same but on the other side of the ground?

I also remember going into the "wrong" end at Stoke and dozens of us just trotted the length of the pitch waving our scarves to join our own fans. No trouble or anything.

Chris Williams
132 Posted 24/08/2017 at 18:40:03

Yes, I believe so, it was just the way things were done then. I can't remember why we were up the other end in the first place. But the size of that Evertonian! Not surprised at no aggro.

David Currie
133 Posted 24/08/2017 at 19:09:28
Great post Sam 117/124, totally agree with you. We should never have been banned and agree Heysel never gets much of a mention.
Eric Paul
134 Posted 24/08/2017 at 22:58:32
Mike @123,

Yes, they are a figment, although these "firms" did exist, they were nothing to worry about but the clubs you mention did have a really dark underbelly of so-called fans – as did we.

Sam Barrett
135 Posted 25/08/2017 at 16:17:38
Eric, what the fuck have these firms got to do with Heysel and EFC getting banned, please enlighten me?
David Currie
136 Posted 26/08/2017 at 00:21:51
Don't forget United and us both played and won the Cup Winners Cup in 84 and 85 with no trouble, yet both got banned because of the RS. Deal and ban the club that caused it. The biggest losers were the players who could never play again in Europe.
Sam Barrett
137 Posted 26/08/2017 at 06:32:20
Correct David, but some "Evertonians" on here will argue it was the correct decision!!
Mike Green
138 Posted 26/08/2017 at 09:08:41
Sam #137 - You think playing a game of football in a foreign field trumps someone's human right to go to a game and come home safely. Look at our roots and ask yourself what our founding fathers would've said. 39 people died and ultimately English football got what it deserved. The authorities were doing what they thought was right at the time - not sitting at a keyboard 32 years later, sipping on a cold one saying life 'isn't fair'. My guess is you weren't around at the time so good luck forming an opinion on re-runs of Green Street.
Eddie Dunn
139 Posted 26/08/2017 at 09:16:23
Dave Ganley ,Liverpool fans were attacked in Rome in '84 and I can recall mates who were attacked there in the seventies, with iron bars and knives.
Italy has had a long hooligan history of it's own. Our media made us(England) seem to be the only culprits.
The Turks and Greeks have their own histories of rioting that put Millwall's reshaping of Luton in the shade.
When England went to Europe and broke a few plastic chairs the media loved it. If you looked at the fans out there, loads would be from football backwaters, and perhaps this was why they were keen to be part of some bigger firm.
I believe that the Thatcher govt wanted to hit the working classes in every way.
Many of the clashes in Europe were caused by heavy-handed policing. Look at Lille a couple of years ago-
our fans were behaving normally and were still charged by riot squads.
They didn't like us travelling and ruining Europe for their middle class chums.
Mike Green
140 Posted 26/08/2017 at 09:51:20
And Sam #124 - we are associated. It was the English Football Association who were banned. Think on.
Stan Schofield
141 Posted 26/08/2017 at 11:18:11
I believe there were two issues:

(1) Behaviour of a minority, and
(2) The design of the grounds.

Issue (1) was a big issue in the 70s and 80s, but arguably not quite as big as the media were making out.

Issue (2) was simply to do with design standards at the time, which are not the standards we have today.

There were four (as far as I recall) major stadium disasters in the 70s and 80s: Ibrox Park, Bradford City, Heysel and Hillsborough. In each case, there was an event that set the thing off, followed by escalation of the event due to the design of the stadium. For example, a fire started at Bradford, and it escalated due to the design including its material construction.

In the case of Bradford, of course fires shouldn't start. People should be careful. But fires do start, and people are not careful. As such, stadia should be designed to resist fire, to prevent a fire that has started from escalating. Modern stadia are designed like this, partly in response to disasters like Bradford.

In the case of Heysel, of course riots shouldn't start. People should be more mature. But riots do start, and a minority of people are idiots. As such, stadia should be designed to handle riots, to prevent a riot that has started from escalating. At Heysel, a wall collapsed, the structural design not catering for what happened. Modern stadia are designed with more robustness structurally, or should be according to modern design codes, partly in response to Heysel.

When Heysel happened, the 'authorities' obviously had to do something. The first thing was to try to prevent and deter riots, hence the ban they imposed. This was effectively immediate. The second thing was to review the design of stadia, which has been ongoing since then.

In imposing a ban, the 'authorities' would likely err on the side of caution, not restricting the ban purely to LFC. This would also have the effect of making them look like they were taking tough immediate action to stamp out the problem of rioting.

From this perspective, I was never surprised about how wide the ban was, and although I'm an Evertonian I couldn't get too worked up about it affecting us. Disappointed, yes, but not surprised.

Mike Green
142 Posted 26/08/2017 at 16:14:39
Precisely put, Stan, thank you.
Stan Schofield
143 Posted 26/08/2017 at 17:03:36
Mike, no problem mate, I think I could see where you were coming from.

The matter of how the authorities reacted is an interesting one. On the whole, the design of stadia seems to have evolved well in light of these disasters. However, I think there was a knee-jerk reaction to Heysel in terms of the subsequent decision to cage fans in. Caging in at Hillsborough was a major cause of the scale of the disaster. An example of how knee-jerk reactions, attempting to solve a problem, can cause other major problems.

Rather than politicians taking such knee-jerk action, I think it better that decisions be more informed by advice from relevant experienced engineers, who can consider, in a more measured way, potential knock-on effects. Then the politicians can act once better informed.

Mike Green
144 Posted 26/08/2017 at 20:50:18
Indeed Stan, and Historical Perspective too. Thanks.
Sam Barrett
147 Posted 27/08/2017 at 01:41:38
Mike, I'm a 48 year old match going Evertonian who had many close friends at Heysel. But that is not the point mate. The point is what the fuck has a match that resulted in 39 deaths got to do with Everton and their involvement in that competition? I have never ever ever met a match going Evertonian who thinks this was the right decision as you do?

Look at my fucking roots? What the fuck is that supposed to fucking mean? And what the fuck as anything got to do with Association Football? and Green Street? I think youve been influenced by the RS media over these last few years to come up with that comment. If I was you I would keep that opinion to myself.
Eric Myles
149 Posted 27/08/2017 at 03:48:04
Stan #143, "I think it better that decisions be more informed by advice from relevant experienced engineers"

I remember when fences first went up and Granada Reports had a safety engineer at Maine Road assessing the fencing.

He said "these fences will kill someone". It is only when tragedy occurs that action is taken.

David Currie
150 Posted 27/08/2017 at 04:26:56
Sam 147 great post, Mike 138 English football got what they deserved. Now 53 years of age but by 1985 I had seen EFC in 5 away trips to different games in European competition. Not once during any of those games was there any threat of violence by our fans. We had a good reputation in Europe by 1985, but still we get fucking banned for 5 years because of another club's bad behavior. An absolutely shocking decision.
Alan J Thompson
151 Posted 27/08/2017 at 04:46:22
And on ground design; can anyone forget the changes to Goodison to give further challenge to those darts enthusiasts who congregated behind the goals.

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