Koeman will be given more time

If it meant finishing in midtable the club would accept it this season – that's the vision they have of this club.

The loyal paying fans are getting restless and naturally so after what has been churned out so far even, though they played somewhat better in the Man Utd game before capitulating completely late on.

It will all end in tears, so act sooner rather than later, when it's a basket case for someone to try and salvage.

A game plan, a style of football, coherent team selections, players playing in their correct positions, some sort of offensive mentality to actually score goals, a clue how to set up defensively, some man management skills?

So far he's failed on all fronts. You never know – he might produce a full 360 and we'll all wonder what the fuss was about.

More of the same with the same faces and he should be despatched. However, he may give some of the youngsters a chance tomorrow and they may save his bacon and then he may abandon them again.

Part of me hopes he sticks with his current principles and it goes wrong. So sad that any committed blue may think that. However, I would love to see my team play as if they are a team and with passion and determination and skill, generating some excitement for us all. Under Koeman that is a difficult vision. An unlikely vision. Oh for the Golden Vision.

Although Moyes didn't do it, he managed to keep us at a level that was on par with and sometimes above our spending power. Martinez utterly failed to learn. Koeman turned it around last season after introducing Davies into the team.

He is not 'likeable' and has made many mistakes but I think he needs a little time to try and turn it around. Nobody seems to know who is responsible for the failure to land the players we needed in the summer.

We have to soldier on with the squad we have so it is up to him to try and utilise the U23s. If he doesn't, and we carry on in the same manner that we have started, then I think it will be time for him to go.

I fully expect to see the same old batshit starting XI with 2 defensive mids, zero width and a decrepit defense tomorrow night.

Has Koeman seriously not heard of the false 9?

Not that I'm expecting that. Probably we will scrape through tomorrow night somehow & draw on Saturday.

No, I think we need a bit of realism, fellas. Koeman needs more time to work with these players... Not too much though! I think I'll be holding a Koeman Out banner if he doesn't get a good run from the next 4 games.

"How much more time Ron?" Says Moshiri in his metallic voice as his little bony finger hovers over the lever for the trapdoor.

"One more season, please." says Ron looking nervously at the floorboard beneath his feet.

"Okay. But it will cost you" says Bill, as Elstone lets out a purr.

"Tell Walsh to sell Davies for big money in January. And get Duncan out of retirement if you need a big No 9. Now leave us."

"Okay. What about our supporters Bill? Their expectations are unrealistic."

"We will take care of the fans" Bill says as he corrects a spelling mistake on a sheet of paper titled BRAMLEY MOORE - ANOTHER EXCITING ECHO EXCLUSIVE.

Koeman shuts the door behind him to the sound of clinking glasses and laughter as he dials Duncan's number.

Does the Club have a graph showing 'time allowed to get it right' against 'total boring gashness of performance'... a bit like the run chase one in 50-over cricket. As long as he's keeping over the line, He's okay?...Well he is really unless it gets even worse, which it can.

Disclaimer; I wanted Koeman sack last Octocber / November, because sometimes it just doesn't work and it's better to end it earlier rather than late...which didn't go down well at the time. But now I'm not sure it's as simple as that.

So here we are 11 months on Lukaku gone, nobody in and all we have to show for £140M is 3 No 10's... yeah I know Pickford and Keane, but you get the drift.

Thing is, despite his own many and sometimes ' brain exploding wtf was he ever thinking of' cock ups, I get the Impression that the way things are set up, Koeman is on a bit of a hiding to nothing, given the way the Club is set up to run now.

Moshiri seems to have split off the medium / long term, new ground stuff for himself and left the football side of things where it was...with Bill and Bob the flower pot men.

With the added dubious 'check and balance' of a Director of Football Walsh to muddy the command structure waters... which is another potential banana skin for Koeman. If, as it seems, CF targets 1 & 2 are not available and 3, 4, 5 and 6 are a combination of not good enough or too expensive... is it really his fault? Given Walsh's – 'there has to be value for money in there equation' remit

Walsh plus the Barkley vs Koeman tiff, with Barkley running to Bill and Koeman running to Moshiri, like 2 kids playing one parent off against the other, is a symptom/example of the 3-way forces pulling at Koeman.

A man can't serve two masters, let alone three and expect to come out unscathed.

I think there is more likelihood of him walking than getting the sack... I'm happy with either, tbh.

But as with all jobs that chance has to be realistic. He can't oversea another 3-0 thumping and keep his job. I think he knows that too.

Bottom line is that the season is in its infancy still. Koeman has last season to suggest he can do it. De Boer didn't. He flunk at inter and was reportedly at odds with the palace hierarchy. It's not the same situation.

Being 18th after 4 games yet there are only 4 points different between us and 5th place at present.

Yes he needs to sort out substandard performance, but if we sacked managers every time we had a poor set of results we would have gone through a lot more managers over the past 15 seasons.

I don't like him saying it but realistically we are playing to close the gap on last seasons top 6 this year. That won't happen the way we have been playing but he still should get a crack. Pep, Klopp, Jose and Wenger all have had bad runs, spurs implosion 2 years ago was seen as exactly what it was, a temporary blip.

There are 4 games where we can expect results; if we don't get them, it's time to make a change

Koeman cannot claim any of the above. He is tactically poor; his man management is questionable; his substitutions are often "surprising"; he goes missing on a golfing trip at the most crucial time on TDD when a forward to replace Lukaku was most urgent, even though he had all summer to rectify the problem.

The clock is not ticking for me, the alarm went off against Atalanta.

Find a new Gaffer who can win us this fucking Cup!!!

I've no love for Koeman but in ten days time we'll have played four winnable home games.

We should win all of them and I'm trying to decide what's the worst I'd accept from them. Some fans would be happy to lose tonight so that there's one less competition to focus on. Not me, I think we need to win that bloody trophy.

We definitely need four points from the two league games and a win against they Cypriots.

Until Saturday week though, let's just all step away from the gun.

The answer for me remains a resounding no. If he will shit himself as soon as we play anyone decent then the best we can hope for is best of the rest... and there are plenty who can deliver that. Some might give us some entertainment along the way without costing £6M a year.

My mind is made up. He needs a miracle and he won't get it.

Finally, I wish some people would realise that those of us who are calling for him to go are not just basing those calls on five poor matches this season, but on the wretched end of last season when the team seemed to switch off and gave up the fight for 6th place. Koeman at the time seemed happy to accept that 7th was our destined position and he now compounds that by telling us to be realistic and not expect any improvement on that position for this season. If that's not bottling it and displaying total negativity, waving the white flag in the direction of the so called big teams, then I don't know what is.

If Koeman's team is still shite by February/March, I'd like to think we'll be shopping around for a new man to take charge before the transfer window opens again. Obviously, big problem is that it's a World Cup year in the summer, so we probably would need to have an agreement with the next manager in good time.

Bringing a new man in now would seem a bit pointless, it would only be a stopgap until the summer when money can be spent on building the new man's team.

I'm happy with that scenario as there will still be time to save something out of the season. I doubt we'll lose all our games before then.

We are in the relegation zone , if Bournemouth beat us we will be further into the relegation zone.

If we fail to score in that match and offer no passion or seem unmotivated, things may change fast.

Unless [the expected] dramatic improvement happens in the next 4 games there will be an avalanche of criticism for Ronald and the boardroom.

Then Moshiri may not be able to afford to give him time or we may suffer a relegation battle never mind 7th.

If we had played any of the last four league fixtures any where else in the season, we would have probably had the same results.

The problem is the players' confidence and that comes from playing these games back to back.

If we have bad results over the next 2-3 weeks then we need to ask questions but now is far too early given the run a fixtures recently. People need to calm down a bit. It's going to take time.

If he loses them all it would suggest that he's not getting enough out of his players and it might be time to part ways.

Maybe he feels that with more time his team will be in a better position to take on the better teams. More time to adapt for some players and a few new additions.

And don't worry about the £6M cos, if he's sacked, he'll be getting that, plus the wages of the new manager will also need paying.

I'd throw in the disaster away to Atalanta as more evidence of the same. It has been said so much I'm amazed you didn't read it but;

a) People are calling for his head on the basis of performance (turgid) and tactics (inept) as much as for the results;

b) He is paid a fortune to get us challenging for top-4. We have not improved in any way to achieve that goal (on the basis of the last few Premier League games).

So all in all, I personally can believe what I am reading. For me, the last point is crucial. Ask yourself honestly; can you see Koeman getting Everton into the Champions League (let alone winning the Premier League)? If not, what does he bring to the club?

I can't see him turning it round, simply because I can't really see what his plan has been since the season started.

Play a settled side and play a system that suits the players. He's failing badly on both counts right now but I'm not sure he's willing to change it.

I think the the whole 'Koeman Out' stance is a knee jerk reaction to what has been a difficult last few weeks.

In response to your comments A and B:

A) I think the performance is a combination of bedding in new players and confidence being knocked by the recent run of results. Tactically, against Atalanta he maybe could have set up more positively but you still expect the players to put a shift in, which the majority didn't. That isn't down to the manager, that's the players fault.

B) You're right; he is being paid a fortune. And the goal is, eventually, that we will be able to compete for a top 4 position. But how can you make a valuation on that based on 4 weeks of the season?

Towards the end of last season we were picking up good wins and all was rosy going into the pre-season. We've made some good young signings to try and build a platform. I just believe that platform takes more than 4 weeks to build.

What hasn't changed is the dull footie that we play, the suppression of our youthful talent and Koeman's programme to destroy the very soul of the club and shred the confidence of the playing staff.

where have you been?

Having possession a lot means nothing unless it can springboard with some incisive offence which Everton have failed to do over the last month. Effective wing play has been minimal with not even Lennon getting a start.

Baines and Martina have been held back too much with the plan being containment rather than a winning strategy. Maybe the plan was to get by until Bolasie and Coleman return but it has backfired badly.

The prognosis does not look good as things stand at the moment.

Worst of all, putting the ball constantly in the fucking air only to lose it... again!

I'll know when we've cracked it... the day neutral fans are busting a bollock to get to their local boozer... because the Blues are live on telly!!!

If we have pretensions of being a big club, then we should act like one; I think Koeman is the 3rd best paid manager in the league and he is nowhere near earning his corn.

Your optimism does you credit and I agree things looked rosy going into pre-season. Then pre-season happened. Leaving aside these last few games, we could barely get out of first gear against Split or Ruzomberok away. I agree the players shoulder their share but the buck stops with the manager; both should be the object of our derision.

Part of modern football that I dislike is the way fans demand everything be right all the time. Bad form? Sack him. Misses shot? Crap striker.

Football is complex, players and managers are human. Past two games haven't met our expectations. True.

But people deserve chances. This manager had a bad time at Valencia, but did well in holland and at Southampton. He did exactly what was required last season. No more, no less.

That run of fixtures was brutal. But if you compare the performances against those teams from last season who is really surprised? Give them a chance.

We won't win the league. As if that is news to anyone, but at this point in time, even with terrible performances we are still well within reach of the top 5!! No one talks about being in the European spots after 4 games, it's an easy dig to say we are in the relegation zone at this point

Anyway, I am drunk, less positive than before but still no so disenchanted that I think that the bloke who arrested the decline last year can't do it again.

So far, we have a trend of questionable tactics and man-management, and disappointing results. Given that trend, if poor results continue, I think it would be irresponsible of Everton not to take action to replace Koeman, since we need to stop a bad trend.

That said, if we get good results in the next 4 games, that might be a signal that the trend is changing, in which case it would be equally irresponsible to sack him, since we need to take an opportunity to continue what might be the start of a good trend.

So, next four games: If the bad trend continues, sack him. If there are signs of a positive change, give him more time, and continue to review the situation.

The game changer has been not buying a striker. This has left us really short, I'm sure no-one would have imagined that we would fail to bring in at least one striker. The wheels have fallen off since as we have played tough fixtures with an unbalanced squad that we are all not happy with.

I do think, though, that you have to look at the bigger picture sometimes. Yes, we have had a bad month, but Koeman isn't stupid. He wanted a striker as well, remember, he probably feels as let down as the rest of us.

As far as I am concerned, we had a good season last season. Having started the season with an unfit squad (inherited from Martinez), I think I am right in saying that we had our best home record in Premier League years. We also saw Davies, Holgate and Calvert-Lewin come into the team, with cameos from Lookman also.

We do need to improve, and we should improve now. But let's not be too hasty. We had a bad spell last year, where we only won 1 in 12 if I remember rightly, and Koeman got us going after that bad spell.

I think we are in for a tough few months now until January, when hopefully we can get a couple of strikers in. But let's not become one of those clubs who are always in a crisis every time they lose a couple of games, or we don't play well for a handful of games. We have a load of new players, let's give them (and the manager) a chance to settle in and show what they can do.

If it hasn't improved by December, then yes, let's take action. But we shouldn't be talking about getting rid of the manager after 5 league games, in my opinion.

He has basically said that it's unrealistic to expect Everton to finish significantly higher than last season, despite signing new players that he wanted. His overall tone is not consistent with promoting the interests of Everton, and that is a concern. I could imagine an owner being a tad put out by it, especially an owner who's supposedly engaged in increasing Everton's 'profile' and 'brand'.

It also looks defeatist, under the bland banner of 'realism', a defensive stance that gives Koeman a get-out clause if he fucks up. It's the opposite of a winning mentality that says, we have a good squad, and I will do my best to use these players to maximum effect, setting my tactics to bring out the best in them.

So for me, it's not just the bad trend of performances, it's also the managerial background to that trend, and the associated lack of motivation and aim to win each game. On this basis, I would be minded to sack him now, but in my post @52 I'm erring on the side of giving him a chance to redeem himself despite his statements to the media.

He recalled how Koeman saw the Southampton board sell half the team when he arrived, and still managed two rather good seasons. He also pointed out how things have been going downwards, over there, since he left. He ended his reflections by wondering whether Everton are too big a club for a manager such as Koeman, and he may have a point.

Of course, Koeman will be given time, but when this sort of headline starts showing up, it is almost as ominous a sign as 'the dreaded vote of confidence'. I am pretty disappointed, of course, but I also think that sacking a manager in September is a sign of panic or recklessness, and I don't think the people at the top, for all their faults, or supposed faults, lack a cool head.

When was the last time we dropped points to them at home? You are accepting mediocrity when it should be 6pts every time.

All 4 games under any set of circumstances we would expect to beat all 4 teams.

You are unconsciously setting the bar lower than it should be that it gives Ron and you an excuse to keep him?

It is completely realistic for us to beat all four teams.

Is it because he has gotten so wrong to date you have no confidence in him winning the games perhaps?

That should tell you he needs to be sacked.

Of course we should be beating both teams at home. Anything else would be a disappointment.

I'm not unconsciously doing anything. The point is that Koeman's team contains a lot of new players, some of whom are struggling to settle into the team. I think the team will undoubtedly improve with time. Therefore, a team as described above aren't gong to just brush any team aside any time soon and I include Burnely and Bournemouth in that.

The question I have (not for you as you seem to have made up your mind) is how would we feel if, say, we lost tonight, beat Bournemouth, beat Apollon and drew with Burnley. I'm not sure. I suppose it'd depend on performances.

That's not accepting mediocrity. It's acknowledging that players need time to bed in. They may never do that but I think they and the manager should get a little more time.

He has completed one year of three year contract. I suspect his managerial skills surpass anyone's on here so forget the personal insults, selective arguments and half-truths and let the guy do his job. He might surprise us all.

The thrashings have been on the cards since a well-below par pair of performances in a 2-0 aggregate win against the mighty Ruzomberok. But the excuses keep coming. It was still 'pre-season' (despite having started ours early to accommodate said fixtures) and then we watched other Premier League clubs comprehensively outplay us despite not having the benefits of such an early pre-season.

If we take maximum points from the next 'winnable' games (and that is a big 'if') it is merely papering over the cracks. Koeman is not a good manager from all we have seen so the incessant need to hang onto him is something to which I can not relate.

Tom Davies, good last year pushed unceremoniously aside as an example.

That's on the manager. He doesn't and shouldn't have shoved them all in at once. Schoolboy stuff.

I do want Koeman's sacked on his current style and results, especially away from home.

If he managed to turn it around then great, I would no longer want him removed, Everton would be winning and entertaining me. The point I'm making is what are the chances based on the evidence to date he will? Tiny, small, improbable.

So why carry on with a lame duck? Its never just a case of getting rid. There is a substantial case for sacking him and little to persuade me to keep him.

I cannot accept anything less than four wins, it's realistic and completely within the compass of this Everton team. So I think you are accepting less than we should rightly expect.

So far, your argument consists of a comparison with Martinez that hardly flatters your point; he was a terrible manager and it was obvious to some as early as his second season.

That Koeman's '"managerial skills surpass anyone's on here" is also an incredibly weak point. The debates are whether or not those skills are good enough for the club. Please explain why you think they are?

There are many questions to be answered but regarding Davies, it's a long season with extra games for a lad only in his second year. Maybe he's wary of that. Maybe we don't want another player running out of steam by the age of thirty like our prodigal son.

Anyway, just a difference in opinions I guess.

Well, I'm old enough to know different. As I said, I don't mind defeats but not in this manner; oh and it's the last five games, not the five coming up he should be judged on. Oh hang on, this is still Bill's Everton. More or less.

For the record, it isn't exactly 'after 5 league games' now since he has been in charge but it is okay, we won tonight so that resets I guess. I look forward to all the pessimism after 'one bad loss' the next time.

Peter (#38) seems to make more sense.

Koeman must be given more time and after tonigh'ts result, maybe just maybe he is thinking of playing the boys, hopefully in their correct positions and giving Niasse, Kenny and Vlasic an extended run alongside young Tom Davies.

Ferguson bought a pile of shite when he first went to Man Utd but he was given 4 years to sort it and ended up having to play all those boys, and remember how that ended up?

Don't despair yet, lads.

Koeman has not been responsible, for all of these calamities, but has for some of the others. In the main, the lack of a credible striker and failing to use the talent he has in the under 23 team to bring the team up to strength.

Personally, I'd see how the next 3 games go up to the next international break and, if there's been no improvement, then its time for a real think as to where we go manager wise.

No disrespect but we should be playing much better against the likes of Bournemouth, Burnley and the Cypriot side, all at home, and I'd hope we'd manage at least two wins out of these three.

After that come Lyon, Arsenal and Chelsea in close proximity so the next 3 games are real important!