Allardyce: Players deserve credit for what they have achieved

Sunday, 6 May, 2018 89comments  |  Jump to most recent

Sam Allardyce says it's sad that, in his opinion, Everton's players have not received the acknowledgement they deserve for pulling away from the relegation zone this season and likely finishing eighth in the Premier League.

The manager admitted that his side were terrible in yesterday's 1-1 draw with Southampton, in which the Blues needed a deflected Tom Davies strike to rescue a point with virtually the last kick of the game, and he also criticised those players whom he asked to step in following injuries to Wayne Rooney and Theo Walcott for falling short of what was expected.

But despite ignoring the fact the boos that rang out around Goodison Park at the end both halves were equally — perhaps predominantly — aimed at him, Allardyce also praised the players for their efforts over the last six months.

“You get boos where you go and don't play well,” Allardyce argued. “You get boos here and anywhere you don't play well.

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“We didn't play well so we got booed. I thought we were terrible. We couldn't pass to each other. I don't know why we had that problem but you've got to forgive these boys and that's what you don't do.

“The fans should forgive them a little bit because of what they've done, how hard they've worked to get this club out of trouble and what they've achieved.

“There seems to be no credit for their achievement. I'm not talking about me but them — the effort they've put in; the drive; the willingness to take Everton to the top eight and stay in the top half of the league for the time I've been here; to accumulate more points than some of our rivals who are supposed to be better than we are; not to be involved in a relegation battle.

“But it appears that's no credit to the players at this club, which is rather a shame for the effort they've put in. They've done a magnificent job in terms of what they've done and how far they've come.

“We've got farther than anyone else that was in a delicate position when I took over but that doesn't seem to be accountable for in any stretch of the imagination in recent weeks.

“You take 14 points out of seven games, fifteen from eight, but there seems to be no recognition for it. I think that's rather sad in all aspects of some of the fans, some of the media. It's fuelled by some of the radio, papers, all of it. It's rather sad.”


Reader Comments (89)

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Liam Reilly
1 Posted 06/05/2018 at 08:31:19
The problem with Allardyce is that he equates Everton"s expectations to his former sides where 8th would be considered an achievement.

He needs to take a good long look at our motto when he"s closing the door on the way out.

Eugene Kearney
2 Posted 06/05/2018 at 08:31:39
Now we have a "Top Eight" - Wow !!

We are not even sure to finish 8th - Leicester have two games left, we have one game left and they are 5 points behind us.

If we were 12th he'd be looking for recognition for taking us into the "Top Twelve".

All last summer's optimism... this is how we finish.

Neil Lawson
3 Posted 06/05/2018 at 08:37:53
No, we didn't play well. Well done Sam for that astute assessment. But when did we ever play well under your stewardship? Once I think. In Cyprus. With hardly any of these players and with you sitting at home filling your fat face with burgers watching Netflix.
Nathan Rooney
4 Posted 06/05/2018 at 08:52:21
I thought I had heard it all from the bisto botherer, but this is a pearler. Anybody who thinks he should be given a chance next season Nedd to read this crap. I may have put some gravy-tas behind his advice to stay for our players, if he hadn't been throwing these so called "heroes" under the bus all season, for their abject performances, which also had sod all to do with him! Sam is also the first Everton manager I can recall who hasn't joined in with the lap of appreciation on the last home game (I may be wrong?), due to media commitments?!? I call bs to that, and that he's a complete s**thouse and bully. Moshiri/kenwright et al - do the right thing and end this crooks association with our once great club now, before the stain and taint he leaves with us will be permanent. He should never have been considered as manager for the club, but we were in trouble, causing panic which can lead to poor, bad decision making, and I can understand and forgive that. True leadership and management means reviewing the decisions taken, holding your hands up when things haven't worked out, then rectifying the situation that your bad decisions have created. Something allardyce is incapable of, but this is what moshiri/kenwright must now do by, getting rid of Allardyce, Lee, Walsh etc. Do I have faith that they will do what's necessary? Sadly, I can't even see any kind of plan from the top atm, but I know in my battered, blue heart that Sam isn't the man to take us forward.
Alan J Thompson
5 Posted 06/05/2018 at 08:58:17
He gives the impression that he still doesn't see any of it as his responsibility but if there is any improvement then they coincide with his arrival and therefore he must get the praise for it.

And I thought the Dutchman had a problem with the truth.

Tony Everan
6 Posted 06/05/2018 at 08:59:00
He is criticising the players in one sentence and praising them in the next.

He alludes to his own achievements as being recognised but the players deserve some too.

It’s all blather to keep up his image as a successful manager that can keep your team safe in the premiership. There is big money at stake and this PR doublespeak actually works.

I expect the rumours to intensify in the coming days that we are in talks with our next manager.

Sam Allardyce will be gone next week a few hours after the West Ham game.

Gerard Carey
7 Posted 06/05/2018 at 08:59:15
Has it come to this, that we should be a whooping and a hollering for escaping relegation. We have been dire all season.
Big Sam has done nothing but lower expectations. Get rid.
Rob Dolby
8 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:09:41
The players that deserve credit are Pickford, Jags, Coleman, Baines, Walcott, Niasse, Tosun, Gueye, Rooney and at a push Davies. The rest need to have a look at themselves.
Jim Bennings
9 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:11:42
I’m sorry Sam but those players have cheated the fans all season with half arsed performances, selected games they wanted to turn up for and skipped the rest.

We failed to beat any of the top 7 home or away, I honestly can’t recall the last time that’s happened either, so another stat that goes down very nice!!

How Allardyce can even mention the word “achieved “ in this complete monstrosity sums up Everton as a club!

John Davies
10 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:15:12
Sick to death of listening to the deluded fraud's bullshit. It's just constant drivel followed by more of the same. The guy just can't keep his head down and shut the fuck up.
I am seriously worried now that Moshiri hasn't got the balls or a plan to get rid of him. If we start the new season with him in charge then, after 55 years as a Blue, I'll be done with them all.
Kim Vivian
11 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:19:02
See it as it is fellas. Sam knows just how unpopular he is here - probably more so than any of his previous projects - and is just ticking off the hours until he can slope away over the horizon, spend his (not so) hard earned and leave us to get on with life.

A brief blot on the history of Everton will shortly be eradicated - if not from memory - and hopefully this has been the fall before the rise for us. Absolutely no way is he here next year, he clearly knows it and thank the Lord for that. Lets just hope Mosh can show some true ambition and at the same time attract the calibre of manager/coach (or whatever we want to call it) that we aspire to.

We will lose to West Ham, nailed on, and so ends, and good riddance to, this season.

James Hughes
12 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:19:43
No Sam the players deserve a slap or two for the level of their performances. Hope you enjoy the game next week as friends will be in short supply for you. Please leave straight after and take your cronies with you.
Adam Scott
13 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:22:37
Not sure how much credit for their performances I would be dishing out to Davies or Rooney, Rob.

Admittedly, both of them care, and in Davies case in particular I am happy to give him time and certainly aren't getting on his back. Both need to up their games (if they can, a big question for both) if they are to be mainstays of Everton FC for me.

In the case of Tom, Ross Barkley got a real hard time from a minority of fans. maybe that was because expectations were higher, I don't think Tom is anywhere near as talented a player as Ross. Even at Ross' worst. Jury is out for me on him. Don't know if I ever see him as an international player...

With Rooney despite flourishes in his early season performances, and them goals against West Ham, he has been pretty anonymous for us. I also believe any credit for this season also evaporated with his off the field antics what demonstrated a lack of professional responsibility. Think Wayne has to accept a reduced role next year.

Phil Sammon
14 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:36:21
Sam, the boos were for you.
David Johnson
15 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:38:37
Who was responsible for signing off that squad at the beginning of the season? It wasn't Koeman that much is clear. Walsh or the board or a combination of both perhaps. The fact Walsh hasn't been thrown under the bus would suggest others were responsible.

Sam has done what we brought him in for and although it's been ugly I'm sort of grateful for that. If we keep him I reckon we'd maybe have a chance of a top-five finish but at what price.

The January transfers were decent so could he evolve if we were to bring in about four more. Doesn't sound like he has any more control than Koeman had as he appeared critical of the Tosun signing.

John Graham
16 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:51:47
I would like to acknowledge the fact that this is one of the poorest Everton teams I have ever seen. We have no style of playing, can't seem to put two passes together, tactics very poor and are playing as a bunch of individuals.

The management and the coaching staff must take a big responsibility for this as I think if a lot of the players were with other teams they would be performing much better.

We need to develope a style that the players are comfortable with and try to get the best out of them. We need to be more adventurous and at least try to get more shots on goal per game. After that we need to get rid of the players who are not up to it.

I firmly believe that with the current managerial team we will be fighting relegation year after year and our style of playing will not improve so we need to say thank you big Sam and cronies but we will not be needing your services anymore.

Goodbye and good riddance.

Mike Kehoe
17 Posted 06/05/2018 at 09:55:35
I think our glorious leader is confusing credit with blame. Many of the fifteen or so disgruntled fans feel his chosen one size fits all tactics and rigid team selections may stifle the natural abilities of the players. He has suggested, after shocking performances in London in particular, that he can not control individual errors once the players cross the white lines: I’m sure we all accept that. He has achieved his objective of survival and for that he deserves our thanks.

It is the fact that his football is incredibly dull, while being relatively effective, combined with the collective fear he will remain in post beyond this season that results in some unsavoury views being expressed: Evertonians by and large have more class than this.

It is particularly galling to listen to pundits, in between betting adverts, saying before games we should be grateful to Lardiola for saving us, then after ninety minutes of dross, talk about how shite the team performed and how hard it is to watch: I imagine the likes of Hoddle and Ferdinand do not need to sacrifice and prioritise actual money to have the privilege of enduring these wonders.

When the premier league started had won more titles than Manchester United and Allardyce will never be the way back.

Mike Allison
18 Posted 06/05/2018 at 10:08:56
All the ‘experts’ out there wondering why Everton fans aren’t happy with Allardyce. Just read this.

8th is not an achievement.

Paul Kennedy
19 Posted 06/05/2018 at 10:17:18
I watched this match with the same kind of attitude on display from the players.

Abject disdain for the club I have supported for years; no heart, no soul, a feeling of let the inevitable happen, I then thought I am not being paid thousands of pounds a week to work like them. I am one of the poor suckers just paying to go and support my club!

To say that the team were under committed lacked leadership or shape and planning is to state the obvious. We are a club of so so many mediocrities in Players who are just not good enough I highlight Bolasie.

I thought he was embarrassing when he did get the ball he fell over or passed it to the opposition in the first half we were playing with 9 men.

It was not only Bolasie who was dreadful in possession Gueye, Davis very wasteful, Even Shamus was running around in circles.

I could not believe the celebrations by little Sammy at the goal I was embarrassed it was daylight robbery and anyone with a bit of a class would have acknowledged our good fortune in getting an undeserved equaliser rather than carrying on as if the had just watched Messi scoring another hat-trick.

A poor poor day for Everton FC.

Allardyce I just do not know where to begin the contempt and dislike I feel for this individual is such that without every other word being foul, I cannot put it into words!

You have got to wonder at the mentality in football when watching the interviews later on BT Sport and hearing Hoddle saying "the fans are not coming to be entertained — if they want that, the should go to a theatre" ... Unbelievable!!!

Daniel A Johnson
20 Posted 06/05/2018 at 10:23:32
Sam doesn’t get the fact we’re not celebrating avoiding relegation like Sunderland did because a club of our stature shouldn’t be fighting relegation anyway. The players have been terrible and so has the management.

Evertonians are not fucking idiots Sam.

Ken Kneale
21 Posted 06/05/2018 at 10:26:50
I am with John at 10. It is not the self serving bleating so of the manager that should concern us but the breath of vision, dynamism and determination of Moshiri. We have slipped to being a football irrelevance and we need to make noises to the owner to ensure change
Gio Mero
22 Posted 06/05/2018 at 10:30:35
Type or paste your comment here. PLEASE capitalise initial letters of proper names and use proper grammar. No txt-speak; all-lowercase posts are likely to be deleted
Martin Nicholls
23 Posted 06/05/2018 at 10:30:37
As Lyndon and others have pointed out, the boos were predominantly for Allardyce himself. Leaving that aside, the players deserve credit for incredible effort, achievement etc? Fans haven't forgotten that these are the same players who got us into the mess that resulted in this dreadful man being foisted on us. On a more focussed note and whilst he's played reasonably well lately, does he seriously expect us to praise the effort that Schneiderlin has put in over the course of the season?
Get out of our Club Allardyce and leave the job of improving the players' skills and application to someone who can do the job.
Martin Nicholls
24 Posted 06/05/2018 at 10:36:33
As for "14 points from 7 games" the verdict delivered by the fans yesterday in relation to the players' collective performance was based on 49 points from 37 games - highly likely to soon become 49 from 38. Not good enough.
Michael Lynch
25 Posted 06/05/2018 at 10:40:00
Dreadful. And to compound the misery, we're either going to have Sam again next season, hopefully with a few additions to the squad, or a new man coming in and probably not having enough time to get rid of the shit players and build a dynamic new squad.

This is the worst set of players I've seen in an Everton shirt for many years. Absolutely second-rate from top to bottom. Second-rate players, second-rate manager. Eighth? I'd be amazed if we finish that high next season.

Kunal Desai
26 Posted 06/05/2018 at 10:53:45
Here we go Allardyce on another wind up towards the fans. He just loves this doesn't he. Yet again deflecting any blame away from himself. The coward loves playing these games. Let him have one more next week.
Neil Carter
27 Posted 06/05/2018 at 11:03:18
Players got the credit for what they achieved Sam- I was in the the car park for that lap of appreciation- first time ever-we do show are appreciation year after year.
We don’t accept mediocrity at Everton-the club is bigger than you and your shite football- we are used to and expect to be entertained by positive football and hard work.
We’re the constant at this club not you or some ( not all) half arsed players.
I’m back for more next season- the thought of facing more of same shite fills me with dread.
It’s my club not yours so you should leave and let someone with ambition and drive take us forward- then we can give credit for achievement!!!
Jer Kiernan
28 Posted 06/05/2018 at 11:09:02
"The Royal We" -Lebowski
Gotta love this guy it "We" but not me when self praising, But "Them" when there is blame to be had

I said at the time of this mans appointment he would bring a toxic atmosphere to the club run our best young talent to exile (undoing years of hard work) and have us playing a brand of football more akin to Rugby league

Well I stand corrected I would not insult Rugby league to compare it to our brand of " agricultural" football

The problems at club run MUCH deeper than him believe me but yesterday for the first time although I had suspected this for a long time ( and I maybe hammered for saying this) I saw that the fans and their apathy is as much to blame also Sorry

Neil Copeland
29 Posted 06/05/2018 at 11:38:56
Jer, I posted on a different thread that I thought the supporters could play a bigger role by getting behind the team more. A few people commented that they need to entertain us and earn that support, I don’t disagree with that view.

However, partly what I was trying to say, badly I think, is that the support needs to be more vocal and visible to show our feelings both ways good and bad.

A number of TWs tried hard to get a protest going by leaving on 78 minutes yesterday and although some did leave it was not particularly noticeable. I left on 78 so cannot comment regarding how many stayed until the lap of appreciation. Perhaps there are better ways of organising such a protest, I don’t know but like you I was quite shocked at the general apathy yesterday. Surely, of all the home games this was the one that we can expect a decent performance from the players. Apparently, Allardyce did not join in with the players - I think that is a sign he will be gone and knows his fate, but unforgivable if not.

I would also like to have seen much stronger rejection by the support of the dross being served up, we missed an opportunity to vent.

Brian Harrison
30 Posted 06/05/2018 at 11:48:01
I would suggest that those touting for Eddie Howe to be our next manager just have a look at the stats. Only Watford,West Ham and Stoke have conceded more goals, all who have changed their managers in mid season. Going forward they have scored 6 more than West Brom and 7 more than Swansea both clubs likely to go down and as many as us hardly an endorsement of attacking football. When I watch Bournemouth they always look as they could concede any minute and the stats back that up.

So for me whoever if anyone replaces Allardyce please not Eddie Howe.

Jer Kiernan
31 Posted 06/05/2018 at 11:57:20
Agreed Neil We had a 2 day long arguement on here with some who took umbridge with the supporters booing Schneiderlin ( a player who plainly gives not a fuck about the club) and it was a real eye opener for me

Forget the 78 it was an admirable attempt by the genuine keepers of the club to draw a line in the sand and set example, However the fans in the corner jumping about when we jammed that last minute goal will get the mediocrity that they so readily celebrate handed to them on a plate by BK and have done so for 30yrs

I understand people who brought kids to the game would not want to leave however the grown adults without kids walking out would set a wonderful example to the next generation who have seen nothing but stinking football lies and false horizons that you can not only voice distaste with your mouth but more importantly vote with your feet should you not like being the eternal losers

If the same was happening across the park their would be phone-ins, protests, banners n most probably public disburbances

Mick Shaw
32 Posted 06/05/2018 at 12:06:27
Nobody deserves credit apart from Jordan Pickford, cent, and Theo
I’m starting to think is Moshiri the right man they has only spent money that we already had and the liver building
Tony McNulty
33 Posted 06/05/2018 at 12:11:36
The pipes burst in your house in the middle of a freezing winter.

You call in a local jobbing plumber. He's not far off retirement but he knows how to stop the sewage and other detritus slopping all over the place. He fixes the burst with some masking tape. You know the pipes won't be able to last another winter given his temporary fixes. However, you just about get through the rest of the winter relatively unscathed. The fixes aren't pretty but they work. No worries, you know the system needs a complete overhaul in the summer, redesign, new pipes laying etc.

Now, do you retain the jobbing plumber to do the major overhaul required?

Christopher Leyland
34 Posted 06/05/2018 at 12:11:57
Brian Harrison - I agree totally re : Eddie Howe. He is the English Martínez but without the FA cup win to show for it.

Here is Martínez first two seasons in the Premier League:
P76 W 18 D 24 L34

Here is Eddie Howe’s
P75 W 20 D23 L32

Jim Bennings
35 Posted 06/05/2018 at 13:34:23
I’d rather we got Howe or Silva than Allardyce’s younger cut out Sean Dyche.

I can’t honestly imagine the football being any better or the fans being very tolerant or patient under Dyche than we are currently witnessing under Bisto.

The question fans need to ask themselves is

“Do you want to see attractive attacking football where the team at least remotely looks set up to score goals, it might result in leaky defences but at least it will be attractive to the eye”


“Do you want granite workmanlike performances that is set up to merely stop opponents scoring therefore sacrificing any entertainment levels or hopes of having a go against the top 6 clubs”?

Fans who will say both are getting way too far ahead of themselves and not actually seeing that in front of their eyes is not exactly an Everton team blessed with outstanding quality.

We have a mixture of ageing players that are currently getting squeezed of their last embers and a bunch of kids that frankly aren’t as good as everyone thinks they are, I heard people last summer saying “sell Lukaku because DCL will score 20 League goals”.

If we are putting faith in a new manager completely altering this crop of players next season into the perfect machine then they will be in for a shock.

Slate Eddie Howe or Silva but I don’t see Wenger or Conte or Klopp knocking the door down to manage Everton and Fonseca could go either way if he got the job.

It would be the same with Fonseca, would fans start questioning why he doesn’t refer to Everton as “we”?

I honestly don’t think whoever gets the job will be unanimously popular given what’s available and no doubt come October we will be hearing the same catcalls for his departure from certain quarters when the defence/attack isn’t working.

It’s no good just frittering away £30 or £40 million on average players again that aren’t the next level because whoever is in charge will be posed with the same restrictions.

Careful investment and clever scouting will be needed more than ever this summer (you hear that Walsh?).

Paul Tran
36 Posted 06/05/2018 at 14:49:10
Completely agree with Brian #30. All the positive stuff I read on here about Howe reminds me of what other teams' used to say about Martinez when he was here.

We'd be better to watch, not convinced he'd take us significantly further.

Pete Clarke
37 Posted 06/05/2018 at 15:23:24
I am more worried about our owner than SA.
He may have done the accountant thing when he panicked and brought Allardyce in but to carry on with him beyond the safety net we reached a few weeks ago tells me he cares very little about the supporters.
How can a manager whe blames the players for a lacklustre performance then go on to expect us to give those same players credit ?? The most arrogant cheeky bastard we have had ( since err Koeman ).
On the subject of Eddie Howe. I would challenge anyone to find a player in the Bournmouth team who would get into our current struggling team. I think Howe has done an amazing job with what is a second division squad..
We just happen to have had 3 poor managers who for varying reasons could not get a decent group of players to play for them.
Can somebody explain how Howard Kendall won us the league in 87 with a mixed squad of reserve and first team players plus some lower level recruits !
Good clever management..
Mike Gaynes
38 Posted 06/05/2018 at 15:28:50
Pete, you could say the same about Wagner. Huddersfield -- no talent at all -- showed so much courage and passion today to get the point at City. They've been playing that way all season.
Pete Clarke
39 Posted 06/05/2018 at 15:51:09
We are a struggling club who will obviously pay big money for the right man.
Problem is that there are very few of the right men around to take us to the next level and fewer still who would consider us so therefore we will take a punt on someone with no top credentials. (Unless Wenger fancies us )
Eddie Howe falls into the above category along with Dyche and Silva.
I wanted Kendall out after the 5 nil loss to The RS so I cannot say who I want would be correct for us but I think I’m in the decent majority that would rather twist than stick with the gobshite we have now.
Andy Meighan
40 Posted 06/05/2018 at 16:17:54
Mike (#38),

Huddersfield didn't play like that against us last week. They were shite. So I don't know where you're getting off with that statement.
Jerome Shields
41 Posted 06/05/2018 at 17:06:11
Allardyce always talked this way. Bare-faced confident, but his action and team made him look like a bullshiter.

I still think he will be a Goodisn next season. Silva and Howe are pie in the sky and are not up to the job. No-one else wants the job.
Gerard McKean
43 Posted 06/05/2018 at 18:03:36
Mike #38, good shout. Wagner came through the stringent coaching badge system in Germany and remains highly respected in his home country. His profile is low as he seems to be a no frills kind of bloke who just rolls up his sleeves and works with what he’s got.

I doubt there’ll be many who would agree that he’s worthy of consideration as our next manager but I see something of the Howard Kendall mk 1 in him. He would need time but in any event it would be refreshing to have a manager who relates well to players, gets the best out of them individually and as a team, and in his public appearances comes over as modest, self-deprecating and totally committed.

Geoffrey Williams
44 Posted 06/05/2018 at 18:45:10
Other than Man City and Liverpool the best footballing side I've seen this season is Fulham. No stars but they are a well organised and play a good style of football. I know they came a cropper yesterday but their manager she be in contention for the Everton job.
Jack Convery
45 Posted 06/05/2018 at 18:46:19
Put this comment on another thread but obviously its besst expressed here:

Apparently we should be grateful for the efforts of the players - what effort ffs. If I had performed the way this lot has, with the odd exceptions and we all know who that is - I would be back at the jobcentre pronto. Oh and no one would have clapped me. Nah this season has been a disgrace from start to finish. The Board - totally inept, The Management and coaching staff clueless about how to set up a team and play a set style. The players - they didn't play end of. Scouting network - should be disbanded and set up again with new leadership. Leadership - totally lacking in all departments. Only once did I see a player come out and give his all for 90 minutes - Coleman on his 1st game back. Pathetic the lot of them and we should be grateful. No, the only people who should be grateful are those earning big fat salaries. Never have so few. earned so much, for so fn little. Allardyce OUT !!!!!!!!!!

Wayne Paul
46 Posted 06/05/2018 at 19:10:08
Get out now. I can't watch anymore.
Jack Convery
47 Posted 06/05/2018 at 19:15:58
I meant to say I would Applaud Lookman - he had the ball to say f u and got himself a move that would benefit him and his career - something EFC couldn't do apparently. He was MOTM yesterday and scored twice I heard. Now there's a player in the EFC mould - PLAYING FOR SOMEONE ELSE ! THANKS TO YOU ALLARDYCE !!
Tom Murphy
48 Posted 06/05/2018 at 19:21:48
Sarri at Napoli has a seven million buy-out clause, I see. Great manager but maybe has his sights on a Champions League team.

I wouldn't mind Eddie Howe, Conte, Sean Dyche, Wagner.

Just get rid of Kenwright, Ferguson, Rooney, and last but not least Allardcye

Get out of our club, please.

Darren Hind
49 Posted 06/05/2018 at 20:12:37
I wonder what people who try to compare Eddie Howe to Roberto Martinez have actually watched.

These two are as far apart as you can get. Howes teams quite simply attack and they attack with a purpose. Martinez had the most brainless idea of how football should be played, He was all about possession without any real purpose. He inherited two swashbuckling full backs when he took over, but within a season he had rendered both of them impotent, He wanted possession, that's all, because he didn't have the knowledge and creativity to go any further. His teams generally squandered possession without getting out of their half . Attacking coach ? My Arse.
His cup run had just about every star aligned too. Yes they beat us at the old lady - aided and abetted by Phil Neville, but they struggled to overcome, a division one Bournemouth a non league Macclesfield and were also drawn against Lowly Huddersfield and had the unusual good fortune to play a championship side n the semi - Hardly the stuff of legends.
People talk about Martinez's first season, but within eighteen months we had gone from a team regularly challenging top six, to stinking out grounds up and down the country - the clamour to get rid became almost hysterical. Moshiri had very little choice.

Those comparing the two would do well to think about what they are saying. Since that unlucky defeat Howe has not only been promoted twice, but he has kept what is effectively a division 1 club in the top flight, playing fast attacking football. Martinez by contrast has been relegated and unceremoniously dumped.

Comparison ? there isn't any. Those who welcomed Martinez here with open arms did so because they didn't give any thought to the mast they were nailing there colours to.

I find it difficult to believe how people can support Martinez, apologise for Koeman and call for the Night king to be given more time . .but the thought of employing a bright young manager who has defied all the odds by staying in the top flight, playing attractive football for the smallest club in the top two divisions, makes their blood run cold.

Lets get another wagon circler. We wont go anywhere, but the masochist's will be besides themselves knowing the agony will be prolonged

Paul Tran
50 Posted 06/05/2018 at 20:37:10
Darren, I think you're over-simplifying things a little here.

The only similarity I can see between Howe and Martinez is that they've managed small clubs in the PL, playing what is regarded as attractive football. We know what we watched under Martinez after his first season, but it amazed me how many people told me how 'attractive' Martinez's football was.

We know that Martinez managed a relegated team and ultimately wasn't up to managing Everton. We don't know whether Howe can or not. I can see the arguments in favour; his team plays fast attractive football, his players talk about how he improves them, his team has drive and energy. They also ship goals and lose games.
If he joined us, I'm sure I'd look forward to watching our games again. My hunch is that he'd lose more than he'd win. I know your hunch is different and if he joined us I'd be delighted if you were proved right.

I'm curious about your argument that our choice is Howe or a 'wagon-circler'. Is it really that stark? Is he the only manager we can get that can play vaguely attacking, winning football? You could be painting yourself into a corner there.

Amit Vithlani
51 Posted 06/05/2018 at 21:14:21
"Can somebody explain how Howard Kendall won us the league in 87 with a mixed squad of reserve and first team players plus some lower level recruits !
Good clever management.."

And a large dose of good ol fashioned common sense. Round pegs in round holes. Too predictable in '86? Cash in on Lineker, strengthen in defence and give more game time to Inchy.

Not like the current set up ofcourse. Who cares if we needed a left back and CF when the season started? 3 no 10s and a 3rd choice RB would do just fine

Paul Tran
52 Posted 06/05/2018 at 21:49:41
Amit, the main reason we lost the title in 1986 and regained it the year later was the absence and return of Big Nev.

Never underestimate the value of a top keeper.

And I'm saying that while acknowledging Howard's brilliant man-management and often-overlooked tactical tweaks.

Ian Riley
53 Posted 06/05/2018 at 22:03:01
Top eight is not an achievement? Yes it is from where we were in November. Are we any better than top eight or seven? The problem is the new owner has no plan. We have spent £200 million plus. Are we better for it? Last two managers have given us hope of top four but that's all. The main problem is the top three places are been sort after by teams who are established champions league clubs year in year out.

We are an average mid table premiership club whom have not won a trophy for over twenty years and it shows. If the team had started better this season we probably would have had a europa place. That's what we need, better starts and a few years qualifying for the europa league to show consistency. This will show as a squad we can compete in all competition's. The squad is to light weight to compete. Europa league this season proved that.

The board need to sit down and draw up a plan for getting into the top four. A three year plan. Being in the top seven by christmas each year. Get the top five clubs looking over there shoulders at us. Consistency is key over three years or more.

Our current manager is not the man for that plan. A younger manager whom has experience of taking clubs into europe whom is hungry to succeed is needed. Yes more money will have to be spent but consistency is key. Next season has no european football. So if the right manager is chosen. Give him a realistic plan of getting this club to the champions league and more competitive in the cups.

Darren Hind
54 Posted 06/05/2018 at 22:15:06

No I'm not painting myself into a corner, nor will I be painted into one. I would happily have any of a hole host of attacking minded managers . .but Its Eddie Howe who you and others come on regularly to dismiss and you're reasoning seems to be based solely on a hunch.

Working on a shoestring does not put you in a position to attract top class defenders. That right now is all that stands between Eddie Howe bringing regular European football to tiny Bournemouth. His team doesn't concede a lot because he attacks. His team concedes a lot because when the have to defend, his bargain basement defenders are not quite up to keeping out some of the worlds most expensive attackers.

I bet if he was given 30m to spend on a defender he would not have spent it on the Burnley Egremont

Ray Roche
55 Posted 06/05/2018 at 22:53:44
Paul Tran#52

"the main reason we lost the title in 1986 and regained it the year later was the absence and return of Big Nev."

Sorry Paul, but Southall missed the last ten League games through injury. Mimms conceded just 4 goals in those games. We won 6, Drew 2 and lost 2, the defeats coming at Oxford and Luton. Hardly Mimms fault. The previous 10 games saw us concede 8 goals but 8 wins and 2 draws..

Paul Tran
56 Posted 06/05/2018 at 23:16:49
Darren, I'm certainly not trying to paint you into a corner. You've made a reasonable case for Howe. I think I've made a reasonable case against him. One thing we haven't got is evidence that he'll be successful, or not, at a club with higher expectations.

So in the absence of complete evidence, most people go on a mix of hunch, selective/non-judgemental memory, confirmation bias and value judgements.

I'll use a punting analogy. I look at collatoral form, ground, jockey, trainer, draw, track and then remember that it's animals running across a field. So there's a sizeable element of the four factors I mentioned earlier when I make a decision on betting.

I suspect the same happens when football clubs recruit a manager. Ferguson's hunch was that Moyes could cut it. Kenwright's hunch was that Martinez would step up from Wigan (he was right for a year!) Other clubs have (in)correctly had a hunch that the manager with no PL experience would do a great job.

I've met scouts in a major club who had an extremely rigourous methodology when sizing up players. They told me that for all that, they'd have to 'take a view' on signing him.

Paul Tran
57 Posted 06/05/2018 at 23:46:19
Ray, I'm not having a pop at Bobby Mimms and I'm not arguing with your stats. A few of the players said it and I'm convinced it made a difference.
Andy Crooks
58 Posted 06/05/2018 at 00:09:53
Good posts, Darren Hind. Martinez relegated Wigan. They would have survived had he had a modicum of humility. Eddie Howe has done a magnificent job at Bournemouth. Also, he is a man of decency and integrity, as anyone who watched the uplifting documentary about one of his staff will know.

Yes, I know integrity doesn't win trophies but he has ability, courage and vision. For me, I'd have him as our coach right now. Sam Allardyce or Eddie Howe?

Actually, that is not a fair choice. How about Allardyce or my next door neighbour's ridiculous poodle?

Mike Allison
59 Posted 07/05/2018 at 00:40:05
This is now out of sequence but for some technical reason it doesn’t seem to have posted earlier. Here it is in response to Christopher #34.

Christopher that’s not really an argument I’m afraid. Martinez’s record was with Wigan and Howe’s is with Bournemouth.

For the size of those clubs, who both belong in League 1 on many metrics, they are excellent Premier League records.

It is entirely fallacious to assume that:

a) Howe’s record with Everton would be the same as his record with Bournemouth, or

b) Howe’s record with Everton would be the same as Martinez’s.

So by all means rule out Eddie Howe because you don’t rate him or don’t think he would adapt (he might) but don’t fall into the modern trap of whacking in some misapplied numbers and considering it proof.

David Barks
60 Posted 07/05/2018 at 03:28:09
If the choice was between Allardyce or Howe, it’s a no brainer. I just don’t believe that’s the choice we have to settle for. We offer a massive salary for a manager and surely we can show that financial backing will occur, provided we have an attacking philosophy.

If Howe was to be named manager I’d be fully behind him. I think players like Klaassen and Sandro, Walcott, Lookman and even Davies would be able to shine. I just don’t believe in the mantra that Howe is the limit to what we can attract. It’s as simple as that to me. But good God, I’d be ecstatic with him if it meant Allardyce is gone. And we would have to commit a period of a few years for him to shape this team as well as the youth set up.

David Currie
61 Posted 07/05/2018 at 03:44:23
Well said Darren, Howe has his team attacking quickly and with purpose with his possession. Martinez teams played too slow and gave the opposition lots of time to get behind the ball. Give Eddie Howe a 5 year deal he is the right man to move us forward and he will with some decent money to spend.
Amit Vithlani
62 Posted 07/05/2018 at 05:49:47
Paul @ 52. I tend to agree with you in thinking Nev's absence cost us in 86. I certainly look at two if the RS goals in the cup final and wonder if Nev might have done better. As for the league, hard to say looking back having seen Ray's stats. The mind plays tricks and I thought we were shakier without Nev.

What I was really saying was that Howard knew we had another issue: Lineker was all pace and no touch, which affected our style and attacking variation. With Mountfield's injury, we were also lacking defensive cover.

He solved two problems in one stroke:Lineker's sale generated the cash to strengthen the team.

And subsequently, the goals were shared around, but what really helped was we really kept a tight ship.

It was simple common sense which is overlooked these days in an era of DoFs looking to sign players en masse to justify their existence.

John G Davies
63 Posted 07/05/2018 at 06:11:53
Eddie Howes fast attacking football has seen them score 43 goals this season.

Same amount as Everton. Less than Watford, West Ham and Leicester.
Sam Hoare
64 Posted 07/05/2018 at 08:09:53
Darren@54 are Bournemouth that skint though? Eddie Howe may not have have had £30m to spend on a defender but he did have £20m, which is what Nathan Ake cost, so not all of his defenders are ‘bargain basement’.

Obviously their squad as a whole costs far less than ours but in the past few years they have had a bit of cash to spend as have most PL teams.

I think Howe has done a great job at Bournemouth but he wouldn’t be my top pick. I’d rather a manager who has done well at more than one club. There are a few cases of managers who have succeeded at one club having had time (and board/fan patience) to really carve a team and an ethic but have then struggled at other clubs after leaving (Moyes, Curbishley etc). Howe may well not be one of them, but it does concern me. He’d still be in my top ten but for me Silva has worked at a variety of clubs, has won cups and leagues and has improved play at every team he’s managed. Every manager change involves a risk of sorts but Silva looks a surer bet to me for better football and the chance to win something.

Ray Roche
65 Posted 07/05/2018 at 08:13:31
Paul 57, Amit 62,

Although I agree that a defence needs confidence in their keeper and Nev is the best I've seen, anywhere, I think that Mimms is unjustifiably blamed for the fact that we didn't win the League that season. The rest of the team should shoulder the blame. Losing to Oxford and Luton?
I agree that Nev may have made a difference in the Final though. But we'll never know. I don't know if I'm alone in thinking that Nev might have done better when conceding the Whiteside goal in 85 or did we begin to expect too much from him.

Eddie Dunn
66 Posted 07/05/2018 at 08:18:53
I would be in favour of giving Howe a go. He is a decent, upbeat guy, his teams play with pace and attack. It should be noted that the two teams relegated in Stoke and (most probably) West Brom, have been set-up in to grind out results and yet the teams that have the best chance of escape (Swansea, Saints,) have at least gone for the win, often playing good football in the process.
I certainly don't want Dyche.
His Burnley side are simply big, bruisers (a la West Brom) and they are well-drilled.
Surely, after watching some of the dross this season, we can hope for a coach who has some ideas and and give us a spectacle resembling a football match.
Mike Kehoe
67 Posted 07/05/2018 at 08:31:27
Howe has done an excellent job at Bournemouth and will be given a chance at a bigger club based on those achievements at some point. I think he would be a very good appointment and presents much less risk than others we have been linked with. Comparisons to Martinez are inevitable but unhelpful and unfair: there is a degree of pragmatism to Howe that was never evident in Martinez.

Sad truth is that many recall better times, and this colours our judgement. Everton were a great team with great players and a truly great manager: how we got from there to Lardiola has been well documented and the reality is that Everton is now an irrelevance on the European stage and a foul shambles domestically.

Personally, I would be happy with Howe and would have no problem with him being given five years. Others may feel this lacks ambition and demand a bigger name but is that realistic? Given a choice between Simeone or Howe I would obviously have Simeone but that is not happening.

Next season could be horrible as RS will be stronger and may have won the champions league by then. We are a very long way off competing with them and are currently lead by Sam fucking Allardyce with everything that means. The road back to greatness is long but with Allardyce we will never even find it.

Paul Tran
68 Posted 07/05/2018 at 09:13:35
Ray, I'm not blaming Mimms at all. I think Nev had an aura about him that inspired defenders and planted doubt in opposing forwards. Fine margins and all that.
James Marshall
69 Posted 07/05/2018 at 09:19:52
Allardyce has done a good job. It's a fact. We were a pile of shit before he took over, and now we're 8th. 6th in terms of form under him.

Say what you like, he's done what he was hired to do.

I don't want him as our manager. I don't like the style of football he plays. I think he's a dinosaur. I want a younger, more progressive manager (Or Wenger).

James Marshall
70 Posted 07/05/2018 at 09:21:38
Oh and for those calling on Eddie Howe for our manager - he's got a dreadful defensive record and wouldn't last 5 minutes in my view.
Chris Gould
71 Posted 07/05/2018 at 09:22:44
I think it's highly likely that a deal for Silva has been in place for months. He hasn't been linked seriously with any other club since he left Watford and - considering the managerial merry go round - that's quite surprising.

He was always Moshiri's first choice and Allardyce was never wanted for next season. Desperation forced Mosh to hand Sam a longer contract, but I don't believe Mosh has any intention of keeping him. He was brought in to do a job and has done it.
He'll be off and Silva will be in. That's my bet.

James Marshall
72 Posted 07/05/2018 at 09:32:37
Chris - this was my thought on another thread the other day. There have been zero offers to Silva from anywhere reported so either people think he's useless, or he's already lined up for us.

Brian Harrison
73 Posted 07/05/2018 at 09:54:42
Well seeing that when Koeman was sacked it was reported in most papers that we had approached Fonseca and Silva. We also know as a fact that Moshiri offered Watford a substantial fee for Silva. So I have seen nothing that has happened in the months that have followed that would make Moshiri look elsewhere. Now some reports say Fonseca has turned us down while he still has a chance of the Arsenal job, that may well be true. Silva was sacked at Watford but I personally think our offer did have a huge effect on Silva and the players at Watford.

So I fully expect Moshiri to again renew his interest in both Silva and Fonseca with Silva being his preferred choice.

John G Davies
74 Posted 07/05/2018 at 09:56:07
Not wasting money by sacking Allardyce. Moshiri offered Watford £15 million for Silva.

He gets Silva for nothing and gives Allardyce £5million pay off he is £10 million up and has got the man he wanted all along.
Darren Hind
75 Posted 07/05/2018 at 09:58:31
Sam Hoare @64

Yes he has had a "bit of cash" to spend, but he was the one who generated the cash.
While other managers up and down the country have depended upon the club to back them. The situation is reversed at Bournemouth. They have depended very heavily on the cash he has generated by not only getting them to the Premier League, but keeping them there for season after season.

While the Curly Larry and Mo were being backed by the Everton to the tune of 350m + over the past 3-4 seasons, Bournemouth have only been able to give Howe a fraction of the money he has generated by taking the club to a position they have no right to be in.

Howe has not even been mentioned by our club. so these debates about him are purely hypothetical. I just hope he doesn't join the ever growing list of cheeky fucker managers who have "turned us down" . . . without ever being offered the job - That's some list by the way.

My argument here is that many of the people who have apologised. applauded and championed Curly, Larry and Mo are regularly coming on here to dismiss a manager who has achieved more than all three put together without ever feeling the need to revert to zombie football.

John G Davies
76 Posted 07/05/2018 at 10:10:19

Curly achieved our record highest Prem points total in his first season. Stagnated and had to go.

Larry was not given the centre forward he asked for. Lost interest and had to go.

Mo should not have been here in the first place.

What has Howe achieved more than the above three stooges put together?

Genuine question; I don't know his managerial trophy count.

Justin Doone
77 Posted 07/05/2018 at 11:14:55
Or maybe no more had come in for Silva because he's done nothing and isn't considered good enough to manage in the Premier league.

Howe should stay at Bournemouth. Another 2 years of improvements then he'll have proven he can adapt and learn from mistakes. Something Martinez never did.

Dyche should stay at Burnley. He's done better than Howe but play less attractive football, a style I wouldn't want to see at Everton.

That's the hard judgement, finishing higher or playing better. It sounds daft, one should lead to the other but we are witnessing just how difficult it is to get the balance right.

I'll accept midtable for 3 years if we improve players and performances and then look to move on. I can't accept 7th, 8th watching what we currently are, a terrible footballing team.

Ray Roche
78 Posted 07/05/2018 at 11:49:55
Justin 77,
Steve Fearns posted an excellent account of Silva's coaching history on the thread "Scapegoat Sam and Santa Moshiri". I'm sure Steve won't mine if I recommend that you have a look at it. You might appreciate what Silva is all about.
Sam Hoare
79 Posted 07/05/2018 at 12:05:28
As long as we get a manager who can genuinely coach, has proven they can get the best out of players and is prepared to play interesting, progressive football and not just park the bus and hope to nick one stuff then I’ll be happier. For me Silva is the most appealing option but Howe, Fonseca, Nagelsmann, Emery, Wenger and maybe even Viera could fit the remit.
Steve Brown
80 Posted 07/05/2018 at 12:12:56
James @69, you,could hold a meeting of Evertonians who think Allardyce has done a good job in your garden shed - and still have room for your lawn mower. But I quite admire that you come on here and stick to your guns, so fair play.

We seem to be fixated with young, up and coming managers who play attractive football, might win a trophy and potentially qualify for Europe regularly. Let's focus on a senior, established manager who plays atractive football, has won trophies in top leagues and regularly qualified for Europe. And before we hear from the no, never, no way brigade, we can afford them and there are several available this summer.

Paul Tran
81 Posted 07/05/2018 at 12:14:34
Darren, it's possible that Howe hasn't been mentioned by the club because we're actually doing our business quietly, as we should be. I hope to hear nothing from the club until two announcements; Allardyce has gone and Allardyce's replacement.
Steve Brown
82 Posted 07/05/2018 at 12:19:32
So yes to Emery, Wenger, Ancelotti, Pellegrini, Mancini, Sarri and no thanks to Silva, Fonseca, Howe, Dyche, Nagelsmann eyc. That isn't the level and we can't afford any more experimentation with untried potential. Why hire a Nagelsmann when you can target a Klopp (who Liverpool hired when they were 7th)?
Justin Doone
85 Posted 07/05/2018 at 13:15:30
I'm sure "Scapegoat Sam" is a good read but I'm getting more convinced that Sam is our manager for next season.

Regarding Silva I judge on what I see. Yes he plays better attractive football. Yes he seemed to be able to get Hull and Watford players playing to his style in a relatively short time frame which sounds great and we'll done him and his coaching staff for that.

But I see him as a very risky "relegation threat" choice. He seemed unable to change or adapt. When Hull and Watford just needed to stop giving the ball away cheaply in defence and steady the ship week after week the same thing kept happening. When the going for tough, he didn't.

If I thought 3 seasons of him, playing good football and we would be comfortably midtable then yes. It's far more enjoyable to watch than putting up with the current pile. But I worry about him and although I'm prepared to give managers a chance I'm also hoping for more. Silva just doesn't give me any confidence.

Sean Patton
86 Posted 07/05/2018 at 13:43:59

Average managers one and all the type I thought we had left behind once Moshiri came on board. We need to give a chance to someone from outside the gravy train of the premier league.


These are the types we should be looking at it might be more of a risk but we will never crack the top 4 by making safe appointments. Plus what this season has shown is despite how bad we think are the rest of the league is so poor that 10th is the lowest we could ever feasibly finish, so lets be bold.

Dave Ganley
87 Posted 07/05/2018 at 13:49:55
Oh dear, the players deserve acknowledgement for avoiding relegation, how much lower can we go? We are in fact lumped with the likes of Watford, Brighton, Swansea etc as it's a successful campaign because we avoided relegation.

The board should thoroughly hang their heads in shame at allowing these kind of abysmal comments being attributed to an Everton manager. They should be coming out and telling it like it is, in that it's been a shocking season with terrible underachievement given the money that was spent and the board will be doing it's up most to not let this kind of situation to happen again. Instead we still have a manager who is throwing out this kind of drivel giving all and sundry the opportunity to say what do the Everton fans expect? Shameful behaviour from all at the club. We fans deserve so much better from those idiots in charge.

Keith Harrison
88 Posted 07/05/2018 at 14:15:12
It was the 750th last year. This year it will be on 14th and 15th September. Luckily Sam won't be involved in any football then.
Justin Doone
89 Posted 07/05/2018 at 14:23:02

My opions are we should have been making contact with managers Months ago in a targeted fashion to sound them out before the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham came sniffing.

Not waiting for the end of the season so move your fingers and get on the blower Mo!

We should be ambitious and ask the questions to top managers e.g. would Simeone etc. fancy it?

Being both ambitious and realistic my choice is Mancini:

1 is attainable
2 is top quality
3 is experienced
4 Premier league and FA Cup winning manager
5 is minimal risk
6 will aim for top 4
7 attract top players
8 respected
9 will not take *ship from players
10 improves football style MASSIVELY.

There are a few other candidates, also Italian, with similar track record but I believe Mancini is more proven to what we need. He took a decent Man City, (not previous winners) and smashed expectations.

He spent money on 4 top drawer players (relatively well known in their own countries ie recent breakthroughs) and challenged for trophies straight away.

That's what I want, that's why Mancini!

Sam Hoare
90 Posted 07/05/2018 at 15:49:57

Mancini is likely to take the Italy job. Plus his record has been pretty darned patchy since City. His expensive Zenit are currently 5th in a mediocre Russian league. Plus he very much prioritises defense. I’ve made a few of these points to you before but either you haven’t seen them or refuse to acknowledge them. Either way I’m not convinced he’s the best fit though he’d probably be an improvement on current incumbent.

Paul Tran
91 Posted 09/05/2018 at 08:28:55
There's an 'exclusive in The Times today that we're interested in Sergio Conceicao, who has just taken Porto to the title despite severe FFP restrictions. Apparently on course for record points total and goals scored.

I remember him as a decent player, anyone know any more about him as a manager? They make a good case for him in The Times.

Nick Entwistle
92 Posted 10/05/2018 at 15:01:01
Job done. See you later.

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