Reports: Everton open to Holgate loan move

At the moment, he is stuck in between being a right-back and a right-sided centre-half. Nowhere near the finished article in either position. Hopefully a loan move would progress his development.

But if a young player is not playing regular football, then he's not developing, so either start using our kids, Marco, or let them out to play.

So important for a young centre-half – Leeds, if they want him, would be my preferred destination as they play the right way under Bielsa and they're short at the back currently.

Niasse, Schneiderlin, Tosun are amongst those he would move on permanently. Holgate looks likely to go out on loan, joining Bolasie, Ramirez, Martina, Vlasic, Besic, Onyekuru, Williams, Mirallas and Garbutt.

After the summer transfer window is the time to judge Silva. Not a day before, in my opinion.

Mina is in the middle of a complete Weston at the moment: hacking balls to the opposition, missing sitters, running under crosses, and being bullied by Jimmy Crankie. That said; you can bet some expert will come on and claim Holgate isn't ready because although the whole team was crap... it was him who really cost us the game against West Ham.

We only need a knock to Zouma or Keane and Mina, despite his current form, would be guaranteed a start... Scary!

Mason is (at best) 4th, probably 5th in line for two starting positions. Unless you would be happy playing three centre-halves?

“Holgate the best footballing centre-back we have”.

I think the jury is out on that one.

He's hardly in the John Stones category and from what I recall of Holgate his distribution at times would have come under scrutiny more if his name was Ashley Williams.

I actually think a lot depends on the hunger and desire to do well from the player; in Barkley's case, it was evident the lad at 19 was very very talented and physically strong for his age.

Dowell doesn't look strong enough and that would be my concern with him making it at Premier League level.

Osman was never that big physically but he was a tough cookie, Leon, and could take the ball under control in tight positions and take the knocks, a bit like Pienaar.

The 3 ahead of him now means that he is unlikely to play unless due to injuries and suspension.

The fact that he will be out on loan means that the club sees value in keeping him.

When Zuoma returns to Chelsea, Holgate would have hopefully improved enough to rival Keane / Mina for a place.

Zouma is by far our best defender and Keane is solid. After that Mina is a liability and Jagielka is approaching 40, so letting Holgate go could prove very dangerous.

The biggest problem for Holgate is that he has spent most of his fledgling career trying to play with internationally renowned hoof merchants, like Williams and Jagielka, for internationally renowned anti-football merchants, like Koeman and Allardyce.

Unfortunately our new managerial partnership have spent big on Mina and they are obviously feeling they have to play him. He'd better improve, because they wont put up with this for long.

This would surely show that Silva has a height requirement for a centre -back. Presumably linked to the zonal marking system.

Silva has always had a type of centre back, starting with Steven Vitoria. Vitoria was a 6'-5” monster he signed for Estoril and he once scored over 10 league goals in a season. Mina fits this profile, although he's yet to score for us, he got 3 goals in 5 games in the World Cup.

Mason may be deemed to be not of the profile Silva likes. I think Silva should assess him as he has many other qualities and so he should have a role to play. There's some confusion as to his height, because some sites have still got him down as his height from 18, but having seen him up close I'd say he's 6'-2” now, and that's not short.

I think Mason might not be as good as Stones in terms of being a ball playing defender (and I'm talking potential here) but I do think he's better in terms of being an actual defender.

I still hold out hopes that he will be at least as good as Michael Keane, ie, international class.

When someone accuses someone falsely of racism to hide their own shortcomings, I take issue.

He hasn't really played since that "incident" with Firmino.

First off, Mason is said to be a lovely lad by everyone and anyone who works for the club. No one has a bad word to say about the kid.

Second, the Firmino incident went no further because you can't see the entire incident. Don't be fooled by the 5 second clip you saw on Sky Sports News, that's not the entirety of the incident.

Third, maybe Firmino did say nothing racist and Mason misheard it and reacted accordingly. Is that a bad attitude?

Fourth, Mason has never done this before or since, so he's not one for making things up.

I don't see the benefit of loaning players out other than it gets them off the books and makes the squad smaller for a little while. I can't imagine how playing in a lower league with a bunch of journeyman players will make you a better player.

Everton have loaned many young players out over the last few seasons and they have come back no better than when they left. Half the time we loaned them out and they didn't get many games with the club we loaned them to or got sent back early because they weren't good enough.

We loaned Lookman out and he doesn't look any better but just more resentful that we insisted he come back when the loan was up. Loaning improved Pennington so much we brought in Zouma and Mina to replace him. Not. Anyone remember Galloway?

Loaning has just become a ploy big clubs use to manage overly large squads and keep young players on the books while their transfer value hopefully goes up.

If we keep Zouma that will effectively kill any chance Holgate has of becoming a first-team regular whether we loan him out or not. Holgate knows this. He's had his chances and he failed to live up to his promise. Something a lot of young players do. Holgate will go the way of Pennington and Lundstram. Lots of loans and eventually out the door entirely.

Unfortunately football is a business and big Premier League clubs have neither the time nor the inclination to wait for young players to get better. They need ready made players now. Managers jobs are dependent on it after all.

If a player is good enough we would know it. If he's not we can loan him out till the cows come home but he won't get any better at all.

I understand some of your points, but I'm of the opinion that players will only improve, or even just find their niche by playing regular competitive football, especially once they've already had a taste.

On one hand, is it better to play with world class players in training? To be around them, day-in & day-out, watching them, competing against them, playing with them, getting the occasional game, etc? Now sure we don't have world class players, but think of the top few clubs.

On the other hand, is it better to be playing, week-in & week-out, but with lesser quality players, in a different style, on worse pitches, and maybe having 7 shades of shit kicked out of you?

David Unsworth is perhaps the best places to answer the question. He's in charge of our kids after all. He said he's a big fan of the loan system.

I'll defer to his judgement but I won't forget the highly rated players who have gone out on loan only to see their promising futures evaporate (and there's a longer list then just Galloway and Garbutt, even Barkley struggled on loan playing for that dinosaur Warnock and it took a second loan to get him some actual playing time, so perhaps the key, short loans and maximise the playing time).

It looks more than likely that we won't qualify for a spot in European competition and If as Zouma has been reported as saying that he does not wish to leave Chelsea and Jagielka is in his last year, wouldn't it be better if he stayed at least as cover for Keane and Mina with the chance of a full game here and there with a view to a fuller assessment – or has the Manager already been here long enough for that?

Who are the world class players we've got?

I quite like Mason, and can't remember him having too many bad performances, if any at all. As a previous poster mentioned Leeds would be a good destination if he were to go on loan, under the tutelage of Bielsa.

It will be another interesting window come January, as there is no doubting we have a few who need to be jettisoned, Schneiderlin, Niasse, and possibly Tosun.

Tosun the striker, who appears to have been 'on strike' for the most part of the last year he has been with us.

I have a lot of faith in Marcel Brand's dealings in the transfers in and out, as he proved in the last window, not only with quality brought in, but the ones he managed to offload too, even if some were only on loan.

However, I'm wholeheartedly in favor of this loan. Darren's right that his train-wreck West Ham performance was no worse than some others that day, and it's extremely unfortunate that he hasn't seen the pitch since. The loan to a quality club will help him regain his confidence, and that's important because I believe there's exceptional talent in him. He's an outstanding tackler, chooses his angles well, and has blistering pace -- I think the fastest of any of our CBs, certainly over a short distance. With Zouma heading back to Chelsea, Mina obviously raw and Jags heading into the sunset, we may well need Holgate next season. And this loan is the best way to get him ready.

Frank #17, I couldn't disagree more. Lookman looks much improved and more confident after his successful loan, and I certainly don't see the slightest sign now of any resentment. Pennington and Galloway (and Browning and Forshaw and lots of others) simply weren't good enough -- they were loaned out in the hopes they would improve enough to play for Everton, and they didn't. Osman and Coleman sure as hell did, didn't they?

Whether a loan is a good idea or not doesn't depend on the loan system. It depends on the individual player and the individual situation. In this case I think this is the best way to try to save a career worth saving, and I wish Holgate all the best and a Seamus-like return next summer.

If anyone should be going out on loan, it should be Mina. I don't believe he will adapt to the Premier League style of play.

Hear, hear, how very admirable of you.

But since none of us have an actual clue what happened between Mason and old toothy, I'm not sure how it applies to whether or not the kid goes on loan.

Early days for Mina. A shock to them when they first play in England. One of the best centre-halves I have seen had this to say:

"He explained: “I suffered. My ego got smashed. I really suffered, honestly. Playing against Dion Dublin, Duncan Ferguson – big guys. The flick, the fighting spirit.

"Playing against Coventry, Sunderland – the long ball. I was unable to intimidate them. In France and Italy I was a strong guy – I would look the strikers in the eye and show ‘there is nothing for you today' – and the player would look down and accept that I had won. But in England, no. The guy is ready for a fight. The striker will tackle you! I was depressed for four months.”

They read the game well, have good pace and can tackle. However, both are on the small side to be centre-backs but may bulk up a little. In that respect, Jagielka is a prime example of how smaller defenders adapt and develop their game.

Forget the Premier League or the Championship for now, get first team football in League One (3rd tier) and continue to learn. By the time they're 24 or 25, they may be ready for the Premier League but it may not be with us.

Zouma is already better than them at a similar age and I think we need to sign him and Gomes on permanent deals ASAP.

Have you been exceeding your daily one pint of Guinness allowance?

Watch Zouma and Keane: they are 100% focused when a ball is coming to them. Neither of them are the worst footballer we have had in defence, but both are very careful not to mis-control. Holgate, on the other hand, is thinking about what he will do when he controls it. He is so much more assured. Light years ahead in terms of natural footballing ability.

As for poor distribution, show me a player who played under Koeman or Allardyce who did pass the ball well? difficult to pass well to team mates who don't move because they have been ordered not to break ranks

Good to cross swords with you again, Mike. I was disappointed I didn't meet you when you were over. Perhaps next time...

Keane found some form he severely lacked last season, Zouma came in and did well, Mina was signed for big money and suddenly Holgate is out in the cold.

When he has played this season he has done well – didn't he get man of the match a couple of times early on?

I think we would be foolish to let him go (even on loan). He is not pining for a move; if we did get an injury to two from the three currently ahead of him, we would be desperately short.

My worry is where do we send him. Would he go straight into a decent prem team? Probably not. Case in point, Oxford at West Ham – cannot get a game.

Strugglers may like him but Warnock did nothing to improve Barkley. Fulham are overloaded with inexperienced kids would they want him? If he drops down to the Championship and does well, so what? It hasn't done much to help Williams, Dowell, even Garbutt and Lundtsram if you go back a few years.

It seems like a decent Championship spell isn't taken seriously as showing someone is Premier League ready. So I am not sure really where we can send him to get a positive outcome. Ultimately, it looks like his career is over.

Think big - why not Germany (where so many young English talents are being snapped up)? Don't laugh - why not Barcelona or Arsenal?

Apparently, both clubs are facing a Central defensive injury crisis, they would be happy to have a young, pacy, ball-playing defender who has played at the highest level against the best forwards in the world (and acquitted himself creditably).

Central defenders are usually late bloomers and tend to have longer careers – think Shane Duffy.

Brendan Galloway wants to get healthy to force January loan move

He's not played for the last 2½ months, after featuring in almost all the U23s games up until that point, when he went off in the first half against West Ham in the PL2. That's a sure sign of injury and indeed this piece says he's been suffering with a damaged hamstring.

We currently have 14 players out on loan, with a few more set to join them next month. I wonder if we'll actually shift any of them?

Osman I'm not so sure. He was a Bovril player all his career. He had his moments but overall whether he was loaned or not I doubt he would have been any different than he was.

Outside of those two, I can't think of any youngsters who came back better players than when they left. Maybe it's because we tend to loan them out to lower league clubs because we think it will "toughen them up".

Maybe what we should be doing is loaning them to better Premier League or continental clubs to improve their technique, passing, ball control, etc. Chelsea loaned Lukaku and Zouma to Premier League clubs, including us to improve them. Maybe we should do the same. Less toughening, more skills.

The problem with Galloway is the same as the problem with Garbutt. They were both in the era of Baines. Neither of them could shift him and now that age has caught up with Baines, we've bought Digne.

This is one of the problems youngsters have. How do you shift established players, especially if they still a good few years left in them?

Does Holgate have a realistic chance at all of shifting Keane or Mina considering both of them are still in the mid-twenties and were both big money buys?

But he can't pass. At all. Granted his previous managers all wanted him to hoof it out of the back, but we've seen his passing capabilities, or lack thereof, during his 16 appearances (I checked) at right-back. It was catastrophic. Couldn't cross the ball, couldn't find a teammate. Often sent his own teammates sprinting back to recover from his turnovers. Keane and Zouma are, as you say, very careful not to do that.

Kieran, there is no comparison at all between Holgate and Browning or Holgate and Galloway. Browning and Galloway were never good enough. Holgate is.

Ajay, you're dreaming. Holgate has 48 career appearances for the first team, and almost none of them were at the "highest level" against the "best forwards in the world". His last seven appearances, for example, have been against Hammers, Huddersfield, Bournemouth, Southampton, Wolves, Stoke and Brighton.

His last outing against a top side was the 4-0 loss to Spurs a year ago, and Son ate him alive in that game. No Champions League club is going to be in for a youngster who hasn't been playing.

But, as soon as Baines was fit again, he was dropped and that was that. As I said, the senior player gets preference. As you say, Garbutt just wasn't good enough.

Unfortunately, he has apparently never been able to resolve that weakness. He's been flatlined by every manager he has played for since.

He's still only 22, and he still has all that pace and talent, so maybe he can still salvage his career. If only he can learn to tackle with his right.

And Baines could? Look guys we've discovered Galloways weakness. He's a left-footed left-back who can't tackle with his right foot. Who'd have thunk it? Have they caught on that Coleman can't tackle with his left foot yet?

Maybe what really happened is that Baines regained fitness so he just got dropped in favour of the senior player.

And maybe what really happened is Galloway got dropped in favour of the better player. History bears that out.

Not making excuses for Mina, but like an English player would struggle in the heat (something most might never really adapt to). Then when I heard Guardiola describe Saturday, as the coldest day since he arrived in this country, then I'm sure this might have been one of the things to affect him, although I'm sure some people might say they've heard everything now!

John G was referring to Chelsea's Desailly. Not sure why he didn't mention his name.

All for Holgate going out on loan.

And enough on Galloway and Browning. They're nowhere near good enough. Like Besic, Dowell, Stekelenburg, Pennington, Bolasie, Connolly, Mirallas, Ramirez, Martina, and whoever else Brands needs to move on, we need better players.

Holgate could develop. But he'd better hurry. He's already been pushed down the pecking order simply by new signings. We should keep that in mind.

It was Desailly as James said. Another one was Robert Pires at Arsenal. After his first game he told Wenger "he didn't think he would be able to play in this league".

Most of them have never played at such fast a pace. We have to allow them time to settle.

A defender should not be tackling at all. These days a tackle is the last resort because it will almost certainly end up as a foul and possible booking. The idea of full backs is to try and shepherd the attacker away from the goal and hopefully block any attempted crosses. Then if they get the opportunity get forward and put in crosses of their own.

You're right. Galloway was dropped in favour of the better player. But how do young players ever get to be the "better player"? I don't think loaning them out to lesser clubs in lower leagues improves them at all. They need some sort of natural progression to the first team. But this is constantly stymied because managers won't risk it. As I said they want ready made 1st team players not untried youngsters so eventually they drift off to other clubs.

Really it brings into question whether the U23 system is working at all. It just seems to exist on the off chance it may burp out the odd Rooney from among the endless stream of bog standard dross.

Is there a better way of producing top class youngsters than this?

If a player can't get into the first team, surely it's better to be playing on a regular basis than warming the bench?