Everton set timeframe for second stadium consultation

Thursday, 9 May, 2019 102comments  |  Jump to last

Everton have announced the dates for the second phase of its public consultation on their proposed new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

The club will seek the views of supporters and members of the local public on the plans and latest design concepts for the waterfront stadium, which has a target seating capacity of 52,000, between 26 July and 25 August.

Everton will outline how the design, which is being undertaken by Los Angeles-based architects Meis Studio, will address the historic context of the north docks site as well as provide more detail of their plans for the future of their current home at Goodison Park.

Views on transport, accessibility and environmental sustainability will also be sought, all of which will inform the planning applications for both sites which the Blues hierarchy says are on track to be submitted before the end of the year.

Everton's Chief Executive Officer, Professor Denise Barrett-Baxendale, said: “This is a golden opportunity for our Club to deliver real and tangible transformational change for our city.

“This is a capital project that will deliver much more than a new home for Everton Football Club. It is a critical, civic regeneration project, that will create jobs and opportunities for more than 15,000 people across our city region.

“Our proposals will drive the city's inclusive growth agenda and, in addition to our stadium spend, kick-start a £650m investment into regenerating our northern waterfront.”

Stadium Development Director, Colin Chong, said: “At the consultation in July and August the Club will reveal much more detail about both parts of this project, consult on the design concepts for the stadium and how it will respect and complement its historic context, as well as the scale and type of development in L4.

“Before we undertake our public consultation we will be engaging further with supporters who took part in our workshops last year on specific matters including matchday experience, fan zone, food and beverage offering, transport, accessibility and environmental sustainability.”

 

Reader Comments (102)

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Andy Meighan
1 Posted 09/05/2019 at 07:13:08
As someone brilliantly said when the whistle went over there on Tuesday, there'll be an update on BMD tomorrow. A day late but he was spot on.
Tom Dodds
2 Posted 09/05/2019 at 07:33:13
Grreatstuff !
Roll on the '3rd' stage hey.!
Danny Baily
3 Posted 09/05/2019 at 07:59:27
You can keep your champions League finals! We have a timeframe for second stadium consultation.
Phil Martin
4 Posted 09/05/2019 at 08:09:24
Second Stadium Consultation beats a Premier League and Champions League double every time.
Jim Burns
5 Posted 09/05/2019 at 08:39:47
Shall we not bother then lads?
Jim Bennings
6 Posted 09/05/2019 at 08:52:04
Haha someone predicted we’d hear a stadium update after what happened across the park on Tuesday night.

Bloody hell this is really dragging on this is!

Joe McMahon
7 Posted 09/05/2019 at 08:52:37
Gotta laugh, I said to my Mrs after the second Liverpool goal went it on Tuesday, we will have a stadium update before the end of the week.
Ray Roche
8 Posted 09/05/2019 at 09:05:55
Well Joe, once again the club hasn’t let you down.
Christ, can’t do anything right can they?
We hear nothing, well, THAT’S wrong, we get an update and that’s also wrong.
FFS!
Danny Baily
9 Posted 09/05/2019 at 09:09:18
My concern is that it's all starting to sound like that lean to conservatory I've been promising my better half.
Dennis Stevens
10 Posted 09/05/2019 at 09:21:27
Issue No. 1 :- We won't be building it twice so build the maximum capacity the site will allow, right from the start!
Tony Everan
11 Posted 09/05/2019 at 09:24:16
Just a thought, any news on who's paying for it yet?

Phil Sammon
12 Posted 09/05/2019 at 09:45:01
How long has this been going on now? The project hasn’t moved an effing inch!

If only you could build a stadium out of hot air.

Derek Knox
13 Posted 09/05/2019 at 09:59:18
Dennis Stevens, totally agree mate, like you say it's no good building it twice, season ticket sales are on the up anyway at the moment at GP, general sale tickets are usually snapped up quickly too, so there is the demand.

Saw a fella on the Dock Road yesterday with a wheelbarrow so I think progress could well be under way, although he did have a puncture, and was waiting for assistance!

James Hughes
14 Posted 09/05/2019 at 10:08:11
Whilst we must ensure due diligence is thorough we seem to be taking this to extremes. We are certainly European champions at procrastination. As the club have been looking to re-locate since 2001 surely most background details must have been done at least once.

We need this to happen as we seem to falling even further behind other clubs.

Brian Wilkinson
15 Posted 09/05/2019 at 10:14:16
Did he had a radio strapped to it Derek, if so Freddie Boswell has reappeared.
Jamie Crowley
16 Posted 09/05/2019 at 10:14:49
I don't think we're ever going to build it. Something's just not right about all of this.

It's taking forever, we can't get the funding, there's no timetable, etc.

We'll be left with a plot of land on the water we can't afford to build a stadium on.

Ugh.

Derek Knox
17 Posted 09/05/2019 at 10:25:54
Brian @15, don't know about the radio for sure, as Lilo Lil was in the barrow too!
Jim Bennings
18 Posted 09/05/2019 at 10:27:14
Derek

Whisper it quietly but I saw a fella with a shovel and he was tackling the weeds quite well, so you never know this might just happen in the next 50 years!

Joe McMahon
19 Posted 09/05/2019 at 10:36:08
Ray @ 8, not sure why you are FFS my comment when I have been proved correct. Look at what everyone else is saying along the same lines.
Brent Stephens
20 Posted 09/05/2019 at 11:04:44
Note to Editor - please don't post any articles updating further consultation or any other progress on BMD. It only pisses off the inmates here.
Ray Roche
21 Posted 09/05/2019 at 11:07:46
Not directed just at you Joe, just a general opposition to the constant negativity on here some days. And just because several others have the same half empty glass outlook doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right. I feel as frustrated as you mate, at the length of time this is taking but I’d rather have the occasional update than total silence.
True, we’ve been looking for a site for years but each site that has been considered has required different planning etc.
We don’t have the cash Spurs have so it may need more negotiations with third parties. Does anyone know accurately how long Spurs took. Not just the build but the investment, planning, etc? I know it went way over budget.
Chris Gould
22 Posted 09/05/2019 at 11:27:14
Spurs' new stadium was part of a development project designed to revitalise the area. So in that respect very simialr to BMD.

From wikipedia:
Plans for the project were first announced in 2008 and a planning application submitted in 2009. The project was revised several times and delayed due to objections by conservation groups, and a protracted dispute over a compulsory purchase order (CPO) on existing businesses at the proposed development site. A revised plan was first approved in 2010 by the Haringey Council, and following further revisions, building started in September 2012. Only part of this initial plan was executed, and the construction of the stadium did not commence until 2016 after the CPO dispute had been resolved and a new design approved by Haringey Council.

As we all know, it has only recently been completed. 10 years after the first planning application was submitted.
Initial estimates suggested that it would cost 450 million, but it is rumoured to have cost over a billion.

So, maybe we aren't doing so badly after all and are hopefully learning from Spurs' protracted and costly experience.

David Pearl
23 Posted 09/05/2019 at 11:31:11
Spurs made tons of mistakes over a long long period. They got it right in the end, and at the same time net spend is relatively low. The RS also got a lot wrong for a long time.
It's all kenwrights fault. Bring back Peter Johnson
Anthony A Hughes
24 Posted 09/05/2019 at 11:33:45
Talk of having it completed for 2023 may be slightly optimistic then.
Bob Hannigan
25 Posted 09/05/2019 at 11:41:08
Just get it done
Ray Roche
26 Posted 09/05/2019 at 11:54:43
Thanks for the information Chris. Ten years eh? Well we’ve got some time in hand then if we are to compete with Spurs. And let’s just count the time since Mr Moshiri announced BMD as the site and not keep banging on about Desperation Kirby and Walton Hall when we were all dreaming of someone like him investing in us. They had nothing to do with him.
Tony Abrahams
27 Posted 09/05/2019 at 11:55:00
Fucking Usmanov!
Derek Knox
28 Posted 09/05/2019 at 11:58:31
Tony @27, Who is?
Mark Andersson
29 Posted 09/05/2019 at 12:02:04
Good on the new board and owner for keeping us fans in the loop...

It will happen... but not in my life time...

Next season... oh its always next season we might do this or that... but 30 years of mediocrity has undone 80 plus years of our once proud standing of us being a BIG CLUB.

Michael Williams
30 Posted 09/05/2019 at 12:17:14
This article is almost a perfect Rorschach test for commenters as it's pretty much a benign article updating us about the stadium from our new owner. This makes reading the comments interesting in a very different way because we can see what people bring to this board.

Some argue the merits (stadium too small), a small few are excited, a few bring good humor, and a very large lot are pessimistic. Just like with a young player or manager many commenters are quick to criticize or unwilling to be patient. All we need now is a ToffeeWebber to write "get rid."

Fran Mitchell
31 Posted 09/05/2019 at 12:34:18
If it weren't for fuckin' Osman, this stadium would've been build by now. or is it Hibbo's fault? Neville? Ah Duncan Fergurson is the new root to all problems fuckin' ell fergie, get a fuckin' move on brick and mortar is all it is, ai t that ard.

Beaurocracy is boring as hell, so yes, the planning stages of any development are boring as hell.

But this fucking modern 24h news junky influence of 'I want it now' drives me nuts. Did anyone here follow the planning process at Spurs' stadium? Did anyone follow the planning process the construction of any stadium in the uk? Thought not. So can you really say we are 'dragging our heals'? You think the Billionaire who has so fat spent 300 million for a squad of Bolasies and Sandros and a couple of mid table finishes is just here to 'fuck us about', that there is no stadium in place. Nah, no interest in profits that man, it's just one elaborate hoax to piss us off. The beourgoisie, not content with surplus-value, now want to torment the lesser clubs in working class cities...the bastards.

Or maybe, just maybe, this shit actually takes a while. And watching the process is really fucking boring, so let's stick to the footy for now there's enough shit, that is actually shit, to the negative about.

Dan Parker
32 Posted 09/05/2019 at 12:45:09
Us Evertonians deserve a second consultation, we’re a wonderful set of people and it’s years since we had one.
Brian Williams
33 Posted 09/05/2019 at 12:45:44
I see a vase, no wait, it's two faces looking at each other, no it's a pig, or is it?
Ray Roche
34 Posted 09/05/2019 at 12:59:52
Well said Fran.
👍
Dermot Byrne
35 Posted 09/05/2019 at 13:21:28
The day it opens, is it possible we have an equally miserable thread?
Andrew Presly
36 Posted 09/05/2019 at 13:27:36
It’s the predictable and depressing timing of this that is annoying people, including me.

This minor development does not represent anything worth going public about now, certainly not this week. Who did they consult last time telling them to go for a 52k capacity anyway, Reds?!

More small time crap from us whilst it seems every one of our rivals is embarking on an unstoppable match to eternal glory! Depressing!

Andrew Presly
37 Posted 09/05/2019 at 13:27:37
It’s the predictable and depressing timing of this that is annoying people, including me.

This minor development does not represent anything worth going public about now, certainly not this week. Who did they consult last time telling them to go for a 52k capacity anyway, Reds?!

More small time crap from us whilst it seems eve

Andrew Presly
38 Posted 09/05/2019 at 13:29:16
Bill Watson
39 Posted 09/05/2019 at 13:36:34
Fran and Ray; absolutely spot on. If you are to look at the Bramley-Moore timescale you'll find today's announcement is on schedule as is the overall project.

An announcement about the second public consultation was scheduled for May. Today is the 9 May and an announcement has been made. Nothing to do with the RS or anyone else.

I don't particularly care where the money's coming from; I'd be more concerned if the club was just relying on the council offer. That they're not indicates they're confident of securing funding, elsewhere.

My main concern is about the proposed capacity. Given that, even with a piss poor team, we've sold out every PL game for 3 seasons in an outdated stadium with poor facilities and 25% of seats with obstructed views and given we have a growing season ticket waiting list I feel 52,000 is far too conservative.

The public consultations are part of the process to obviate any planning stage difficulties. If the club can show their plans have overwhelming public support then this can be used to help overcome any objections.

Time spent before the planning application could well save long delays afterwards.

Steve Ferns
40 Posted 09/05/2019 at 13:43:09
Dermot, there will be moans on the day it opens. People will expect our stadium with a much smaller budget than Spurs to be better, or at least as good. Therefore, any deficiencies will be cause for criticism.
Michael Williams
41 Posted 09/05/2019 at 13:59:44
We have new stadiums built here all the time in America and I will say this: The process is long and includes lots of consultation, planning, environmental reviews, taxpayer debate, governmental review/final approval and numerous other steps before a shovel full of dirt is moved. This beginning stage of the process often takes longer than the actual building of the stadium.

This is an owner who has put numerous millions into the club. This is an owner who understands that building a new stadium will increase revenue AND increase the re-sale value of the club by I don't know how many millions. I strongly believe he will build a stadium. I also know it will take years.

Dave Williams
42 Posted 09/05/2019 at 14:21:38
Michael and Fran- absolutely right! It has to be done properly, rules and regulations must be adhered to and the legislation concerning development of this site must be voluminous. People moan if there is no news, they moan when there is news, they will moan about the design etc- the club cannot get it right in some eyes regardless. Leave it to the people who actually know how this is done- if it falls apart then is the time to moan about it. At the moment we have plans to provide a stadium which will be far superior to the meccano stadium across Stanley park and they will be green with envy when it is done. Then all we need to do is get a better team than them!!
Craig Walker
43 Posted 09/05/2019 at 14:35:56
I think we need to start seeing concepts and designs through official channels in order to at least get us more enthused. At the moment it seems like everyone is making the right noises but nobody is actually doing anything substantial - probably because we can't afford it.

I know one thing, if we blow this opportunity then we might as well give up as a football club. The one thing that has made our mediocrity palatable has been the fact that our neighbours have largely underachieved in their goal of winning the Premier League. When they start doing well, it shines a great big mirror onto our club. We, the long-suffering fanbase need something tangible from the BMD project to hold onto as well as two successful transfer windows coming up. The more I think about it, the more it hurts how much money Koeman and Walsh lost for us and what a golden opportunity we missed.

Dave Abrahams
44 Posted 09/05/2019 at 15:17:14
Thanks for the posts from Chris Gould, Ray Roche, Fran Mitchell, Dave Williams, Michael Williams and Bill Watson for their sensible posts, I’m optimistic this ground is definitely on the way to be built and their posts reassure me it will be———-Patience is a virtue, and it will be worth the wait to see the new stadium and a team to match it.
Dermot Byrne
45 Posted 09/05/2019 at 16:00:57
And if it is seen as brilliant across the world Steve? Same I guess
Steve Carse
46 Posted 09/05/2019 at 16:28:59
Steve (40), I suspect the biggest criticism when the ground eventually opens is going to be that many thousands have been unable to get tickets.
By the way, is the Club now referring to the capacity only as 'a target' of 52,000 or are these just Lyndon's choice of words?
Steve Carse
47 Posted 09/05/2019 at 16:28:59
Steve (40), I suspect the biggest criticism when the ground eventually opens is going to be that many thousands have been unable to get tickets.
By the way, is the Club now referring to the capacity only as 'a target' of 52,000 or are these just Lyndon's choice of words?
Mike Littler
48 Posted 09/05/2019 at 16:52:43
I really think 52k is too small and shows a massive lack of ambition. Think big 60k min or is the BMD site just too small and the club never realised this?
Paul O'Neill
49 Posted 09/05/2019 at 17:27:25
@James Hughes (14) 2001? Try 1996! That’s when the idea and initial plans were first discussed by the then board publicly!
Tony Everan
50 Posted 09/05/2019 at 17:30:02
What is the big blue wave than Dan Meis has posted on his instagram message [possibly] to Evertonians ''It's coming''

Is the stadium going to rise up out of the sea like a big wavey type construction at one end? Or is Danny just taking the piss.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-stadium-architect-dan-meis-16251359

Kieran Kinsella
51 Posted 09/05/2019 at 18:00:03
I think the issue is we are all impatient after years of BK promises “check in the bank tomorrow.” In reality it is a massive undertaking and you’re looking at something that may be around for 100 years. I suspect it’s going to be a while otherwise they wouldn’t waste money on freshening Goodson and building statues. So we need to change our mindsets a bit and accept the status quo for at least five years.
Don Alexander
52 Posted 09/05/2019 at 18:07:58
I know nowt about stadium creation but am I naive in hoping that Mr Mosh does? If so, is it too much to expect an announcement notifying the fans of a time-scale re planning, reviews, planning permission etc etc etc? It doesn't need to be accurate to even a year but it's now three years since Mr Mosh arrived and we fans seem to be as uninformed as ever by the club. To me that's regrettable, as a minimum.

Darren Hind
53 Posted 09/05/2019 at 18:14:38
I can sympathise with those who are negative when we get an update and I can sympathise equally with those who are negative when we don't.

With what is going on over the park Evertonians are desperate for
Something.

City fans wait for the main course after a league cup starter. The Gobshites and Spurs fans plan a feast in Madrid. Even Arsenal and Chelsea are planning a romantic dinner for two.

Meanwhile, we're still being promised jam. . . tomorrow.

The biggest party in English football history is in full swing and we're trying to look through a crack in the curtains.

Pat Kelly
54 Posted 09/05/2019 at 18:27:26
What's up Dock ?
Terry Farrell
55 Posted 09/05/2019 at 19:21:51
The new stadium is the holy grail. Spurs and west ham are not bigger clubs than us and by and large they will fill their stadia. We will have a surge for season tickets in year 1 and it's then all about sustaining it. I'd also like us to plan in a 5 or 10k standing section from the get go. We need to get a spade in the ground 1 hour after planning approval and start the second coming!
Bill Watson
56 Posted 09/05/2019 at 19:28:32
Don # 52

The time scale's been on the Everton FC website for about 12 months.

Look under Peoples Project and click on Timescale.

Simples!

Martin Berry
57 Posted 09/05/2019 at 19:48:33
The next wave is about to begin, its "The Great Wave" and its iconic ! not only in Japan but soon on the banks of the Mersey
Jason Wilkinson
58 Posted 09/05/2019 at 19:56:39
Maybe now all those who thought Bill could sell Everton to an "investor" will realise why clubs like Man City were a better option for the purchaser.

A club with a stadium done and dusted with a simple decision. Do we take the debt on?

I work as a site manager so I know a thing or two about the frustration and time it takes to get even simple decisions approved. A project like BMD would normally take 2-5yrs of consultation. Add the fact that its a World heritage site then God alone knows.

Farhad and his team are very brave or very stupid taking this on. I'm not quite sure which.

As all Evertonians I want a world class stadium in an iconic location but. And this is the big one. Can we win something Anything while we wait for Liverpool city council, the world heritage org and anybody else involved to approve the plans?

Colin Glassar
59 Posted 09/05/2019 at 20:00:17
I wonder what will happen first, Brexit or the stadium?
Phil Martin
60 Posted 09/05/2019 at 20:06:24
Jokes aside. The biggest criticism, is that this is the biggest thing for the club since they won the last title 30 years ago. And that the signals from the club are that we're OK to make our future home for the next 100 years - on a low budget, less ambitious Spurs stadium.
Don Alexander
61 Posted 09/05/2019 at 20:10:48
Cheers Bill (#56), had a look at the site but had a wry shrug when I read our CEO, Ms DBB, saying last August that there would be a series of progress reports on the site from her during the season. As far as I can see she hasn't bothered though. Ah well.
Andy Crooks
62 Posted 09/05/2019 at 20:13:26
I just think the proposed capacity is too low. I can't get a ticket now and I fear that in a new stadium I still won't. Why not aim higher? Why not imagine that some day we might have a team that many more people will want to watch?
Dermot Byrne
63 Posted 09/05/2019 at 20:24:13
Andy...understand that but this is all about managing risk for the money men. What I hope is stadium is designed so expansion is relatively easy. If not, we will be a club with no long term ambition.
Tony Abrahams
64 Posted 09/05/2019 at 20:27:58
Derek@28, if Ray, hadn’t got in between mine and Bob’s post, I think it would have been a lot easier to understand!

By the way, I don’t know who is fucking Usmanov, but I’m dreaming of Everton fucking everyone, once the big fella gets involved!

Paul Birmingham
65 Posted 09/05/2019 at 22:07:07
PPPPPPP, is a good rule of thumb, and in daily life.

This time the club aren’t fannying around with nice to hears, but are following a proper planning process.

Painful as it is, its worth the time to plan, check, replan, scope and evaluate.

In my job, in a life time of seeing fantastic projects completed and loads that got over the line, late and a massive cost of failure. I could write a book.

Everton, have in this case got a professional approach and are doing their utmost in due diligence. That’s a positive, and going for a second review and feedback, even better.

Theres still is penultimately the final descision,”Go”, or “No Go”, but I believe it will happen, but for me, the big issue, it’s got to be a 60k minimum capacity, which hopefully, will be backed by the consistent sell out for home games, and also the increasing demand and waiting list for new season tickets. This for me must happen, and 60-65k, capacity would be great.

The club must have vision and belief in the Everton fans.

I don’t buy into the upgrade stadium capacity theory, especially on such a small footprint, in terms of space and spare, space, as there is none, at BMD.

As DBB, states, it’s once in a life time chance, and the club must get it right.

For me as an Evertonian, I ll be told I’ve won the lotto, Euro Lotto, and Id not believe them until the money and sign off to prove, was in my hands and statements of confirmation supplied.

A life time generally of suppression in football terms aside to the golden years of the mid 80s, and a few seasons with decent form under Gordon Lee, and Moyses, and I don’t expect the naturals, like new stadium, or stadium upgrade to happen, but the evidence and cost so far indicates that EFC, is very serious about BMD.

Here’s to hope.

Eric Myles
66 Posted 10/05/2019 at 00:33:29
Dermot #63, Dan Meis has already said that future expansion won't be possible.
Bob Parrington
67 Posted 10/05/2019 at 00:43:02
C'mon folks. Give credit where it's due. I was in Sydney last week for a golf charity thing and was sat next to RS fan. he was really down after the 3 - 0 at Barca and I said to him I wouldn't put it beyond his team to win 4 - 0 at Anfield. So what happened - Barca didn't even turn up for the game and I wish I'd put some money on RS to win 4 - 0.

For us, it's a case of "sh*t happens" yet again. But let's just suck it in and get on with improving, without sour grapes. RS has had plenty of lucky breaks during the season but have lost only one league game. As most of my friends and associates know, I hate the RS with a passion.
And damn it, my only daughter has married an RS fan!
What could be worse?

I just hope we improve dramatically over the next few seasons before it's too late for me. Hopefully, I'll get to a game or two in September.

Glad to note some, if slow, progress on BMD. We need this to proceed asap.

Andrew Presly
68 Posted 10/05/2019 at 04:12:39
Dave Abrahams #44 “patience is a virtue”. Not anymore it isn’t pal.
John Boon
69 Posted 10/05/2019 at 04:37:37
Bob (67). Much of what you say might be correct, but as a proud but long suffering Blue I just don't want to hear anything about the people over the park. I still love being an Evertonian and I am able to completely delete any thing about the RS from my mind. I have decided to avoid any reports or articles about them whatever they may say. I honestly don't care whether they win, lose or draw. It just doesn't matter. I still get more pleasure on a well worked Everton goal than hearing about them being world champion winners or losers. They just don't matter to me. This is how I handle it and it works for me. I NEVER want to ever be envious about what they do.
John Hammond
70 Posted 10/05/2019 at 09:55:47
Imagine we just skip all this consultation stuff, build the stadium and it's a giant cock-up. Just imagine for a sec. Everyone criticising the process now will be losing their minds that we didn't do it properly.

This is such a huge project and more than just a new stadium for us. The negativity is crazy.

Tom Hughes
71 Posted 10/05/2019 at 10:12:38
I can understand some of the scepticism, and I'm not sure that we can really talk about things being on a schedule. The dock was first announced several years ago now. The architect has been working on this for several years too. The primary motive for moving to the dock seems to have been the potential windfall from a commonwealth games bid. It went very quiet for a long time when that collapsed.

Yes, many large stadia have had long gestation periods, but usually once a site has been secured the process should be quite fluid, provided funding is in place. Outline planning assurances regarding LCC and all Heritage bodies should've been sought as part of the initial studies, and certainly before/during site acquisition.

Why weren't all these issues covered long ago? Surely access and transport are fundamental, very site specific, and should've been covered during the site selection phase (ie long before the dock was first mentioned). So, we can see an apparent schedule, but you have to wonder what it all means beyond a box-ticking exercise or a stalling tactic, given that the consultation process has been split into phases, and already follows several lengthy periods of innactivity.

The "capacity question" also ties into the plausibility of the whole process to date. If the site can only support a 52k stadium for whatever reason, why are we even considering it? How did it pass the first stage as regards suitability? Why wasn't overlapping tier geometry employed (as per preserving/reflecting GP's character) to squeeze more capacity out of a restricted site? At £500m cost for just 52k seats, where is the sliding or full roof to give multipurpose arena potential? How come the club haven't acquired a bigger plot to attract potential enabling development to alleviate costs? Beyond an "On the banks of thd Royal blue Mersey" soundbite, and post card photo opportunity, what is the real incentive for getting into hock to the tune of £500m for just 12k more seats, on a site that might yet be less accessible than our existing one?

John Hammond
72 Posted 10/05/2019 at 10:42:50
Tom #71: Who has said the site can only support 52k? It was proposed that it would be a 52k seater with the capacity to increase to 62k.
Ray Roche
73 Posted 10/05/2019 at 10:46:29
Tom, I have read that EFC only bought the dock on 27th March 2017. What has the architect been working on for “several years” if we didn’t own the dock?
Tom Hughes
74 Posted 10/05/2019 at 10:52:21
John #72,
Dan Meis said himself that it was restricted to 52k due to site constraints. The 60k+ figure referred to adoption of safe standing, and not physical expansion.
Tom Hughes
75 Posted 10/05/2019 at 10:55:29
Ray #73,
The actual deal might've been signed just over 2yrs ago, but the initial announcement was a while before that, as was the architect's first commission.
Ray Roche
76 Posted 10/05/2019 at 11:00:05
But surely Tom, very little actual work could be done before we were sure that we owned the site? Didn’t we only get a 200 year lease in November 2017? I can’t imagine Moshiri throwing money at it until he was sure we could own the dock.
Alan J Thompson
77 Posted 10/05/2019 at 11:09:40
Ray(#73); Surely, even Everton would have found out what was possible to build there before buying it or even what might have been planned if it was to be used for the Commonwealth Games.

Bugger it, just bulldoze Goodison and start again!

John Hammond
78 Posted 10/05/2019 at 11:16:17
Tom #74: Did he say that? Maybe I've missed it but I don't recall.
Tom Hughes
79 Posted 10/05/2019 at 11:17:00
Ray #76,

All outline design and planning issues can and should be undertaken long before any major commitment. Would you buy a plot of land to build your new home on without making sure you could actually get to it, service it or even build what you want on it?

Tom Hughes
80 Posted 10/05/2019 at 11:32:34
John#78,
Yes he did, at some point before or during the initial design ideas reveal. In my opinion, he was almost certainly toeing a party line, which appears to be prompted more by the club's financial limits, and not site constraints. Hence my line of rather rhetorical questioning.
Dave Abrahams
81 Posted 10/05/2019 at 11:44:50
Andrew (68), Patience isn’t a virtue to many people these days that’s true, but when it’s practiced it is still a virtue.
Paul Burns
82 Posted 10/05/2019 at 12:08:02
Making plans to make a plan.
Typical.
All talk as usual.
Ray Roche
83 Posted 10/05/2019 at 12:37:28
Tom, Alan, Moshiri joined EFC in March 2016. Who at EFC was thinking of building at BMD at that time.? Kenwright? Don’t think so!
At best, it’s been going on for three years maximum, but hey, let’s have a go at the club for trying.
Chris Gould
84 Posted 10/05/2019 at 12:39:59
The club announced that the 'future proof' stadium would have a capacity of 52,000 with the potential to expand to 62,000. There has been no suggestion that the extra capacity will be dependent on safe standing. However, the stadium will be designed to allow for safe standing if the laws change in the future.

The club intends to submit a detailed planning application for the stadium in the second half of 2019 and, at the same time, an outline planning application for the redevelopment of Goodison Park.

Earlier this year, Colin Chong, stadium development director said: "There is still much work to do as we develop our plans and seek the views of our supporters and local communities as well as bodies such as Liverpool City Council, the Local Planning Authority and Historic England.

"At this stage, it is important to stress that this is our 'proposed' capacity and it is what we are currently working towards. It is important to emphasise that the final capacity and design will be subject to further engagement and consultation.

"We believe that our approach is the right one because it is commercially and financially sustainable and will mean that, in the long term, we will be able to increase the capacity should there be a demand and requirement to do so.

"Extensive work has gone into assessing the optimum capacity at the point of opening to create the best possible atmosphere for fans and, in turn, supporting the players on the pitch.

"At this stage it is not possible to say if and when any capacity expansion to an absolute maximum of 62,000 would take place. That would also be subject to further design work, fan and community consultation and planning approval."

Stadium architect Dan Meis added: "We know from all of the conversations we've had with fans that they want a stadium that is atmospheric, feels like a fortress and supports the players on the pitch. They also want the Club to be ambitious for the future.

"We believe this proposed approach to design and capacity meets with those aspirations.

"Our design and engineering approach will give us the potential to expand in the future. This will be done if and when we are at a stage where it is financially viable and fits with our key principles."

So, nothing to suggest that the site won't be suitable for future expansion. A proposed capacity of 52,000 to begin with to ensure that it's filled every match and provides the best and most intimidating atmosphere. Then, if it becomes financially viable and clear that we could fill a larger stadium, we expand. Makes sense to me.

Bill Watson
85 Posted 10/05/2019 at 12:50:35
What Dan Meis said was once the stadium was built that was it; it couldn't be expanded, He DIDN'T say it was limited to 52000.

The Meis presentations were April 2018. Everton started talking about 52000 towards the end of 2018.

They said this figure was arrived at after consultations with football 'experts' and consultations with the fans. Well, I'm a season ticket holder and shareholder and they never asked my opinion. The capacity wasn't a question at last year road shows. It was only mooted months after they'd taken place.

Goodison could quite easily be expanded to 52000 so if that turns out to be the capacity for B-M I really don't see the point.

Chris Gould
86 Posted 10/05/2019 at 12:57:28
Bill, that's not what was said by the club earlier this year. They have clearly stated that it will be built with future expansion in mind. Dan Meis also confirmed this.
John Pierce
87 Posted 10/05/2019 at 13:15:00
By the time we open this white elephant, climate change will have it half submerged and we be playing the Hungarian Olympic water polo team in an exhibition.
Fran Mitchell
88 Posted 10/05/2019 at 13:22:00
Don't see the issues with 52,000. We currently have 36, 52 is a big increase.

Also, a massive 60,000-70,000 stadium with no atmosphere? Not really what ee want either.

Better to have a full capacity stadium, that has the intimidation factor that helps spur the club on the pitch.

Moving to the docks, Everton are goijng to be in the heart of the 'new Liverpool'. The hub of the city for the next few generations, our rivals miles off in ghe distance, let's discuss the positives for fucks sake, lets discuss how this stadium can make us the club that anyone who sets into liverpool.knows about. How this stadium, no mattee the size, is part of our rebirth as the 1° team in the city.

Tom Hughes
89 Posted 10/05/2019 at 13:51:17
Ray,
That is 3 yrs. BMD was first announced not long after Moshiri bought his shares and WHP was dropped. Do you really believe it dropped out of thin air despite previous studies predating that by several years, including transport modelling, or do you think that he may have been attracted by the potential of a waterfront site? It's not "having a go at the club" to question what appears to be a convoluted process.
David Pearl
90 Posted 10/05/2019 at 14:06:27
Come on Bill, you don't see the point? You would rather have restricted views and low corporate income in a dated stadium. We've also been promised better pies. The site is perfect if done correctly. I think the numbers are just about right and with the ability to expand if needed in the future. It was difficult to think of moving from goodison but the game has changed and this puts us back amongst the best teams. I can't wait. It will put us in the news and make us more attractive surely.
Bill Watson
91 Posted 10/05/2019 at 14:29:00
Chris; # 86

It was said by Meis in answer to a question at his first presentation at St Luke's

John # 87.

Rising sea levels could be a serious issue in future years. I put the question to Meis and he said he was fully aware of this and it would be factored, as much as possible, into the design.

Fran; #88

Current capacity is 39,000 and the club is talking about 52,000 in the belief this would sell out for most games and the final 8000 seats would be the most expensive of the construction costs.
I think the concensus is that 52,000 is far too conservative an estimate based on current demand and waiting lists.
When Goodison had a capacity of 78,000 most games drew far less than this. In fact the highest average was 51,000 in the 1969/70 season. It didn't affect the atmosphere at all.
In a modern ground, ticket sales could be managed so that a below capacity crowd would hardly be noticed.
To settle for 52,000 is to miss the opportunity of a lifetime and to limit our expectations in comparison to many of our rivals.

David Harrison
92 Posted 10/05/2019 at 14:35:22
Why are we so limited in ambition. I weep inside every time I see West Ham post 60000 crowds. WEST HAM FFS. Come on, 52,000 will be inadequate and we will have blown our 1 and only chance to join the top table for the next century There's supposed to be 10,000 on the season ticket waiting list. I'm not even on the waiting list but want 2 season tickets. It has to be 60,000
Bill Watson
93 Posted 10/05/2019 at 14:35:44
David; # 90

Of course I'm not missing the point. Any redevelopment of Goodison would have unrestricted view as per the Park End.

My point is that one must question the cost of B-M for a proposed capacity of 52,000, not that the best option is to redevelop Goodison, although it could be done.

Dennis Stevens
94 Posted 10/05/2019 at 14:48:46
Hear! Hear! Bill #93.
David Pearl
95 Posted 10/05/2019 at 15:44:29
Bill
l understand where you are coming from but it's also to increase corporate hospitality as well as our identity. I think the figure is about right but crucially you know there is a plan to extend if needed.

Do you think we could fill a 60 or 70 thousand stadium? I don't think we could. That would be more or less doubling our home attendance. Let's hope they get this right. You would hope that the site will attract a lot more neutral visitors than Everton as an area. And yes we need to not put any ceiling on our ambitions.

On the pitch I want us to keep the team together, add some quality, keep the form going and try to win the league next season! We have the capability to give any team a game. So why not.

Chris Gould
96 Posted 10/05/2019 at 16:09:22
Bill, if you're correct in saying that our highest average attendance for a season was 51,000 when Goodison held 78,000, then that is surely an argument for a 52,000 capacity?
That was a time when fans couldn't stream the match live or watch extended highlights on Sky. There are many armchair fans who have become comfortable watching the match on their laptops and tablets. If we could only average 51,000 when that wasn't an option, then surely 52,000 makes sense?
Bill Watson
97 Posted 10/05/2019 at 16:47:05
Chris # 96

1970 was a different football world to the one we have, today. Coverage consisted of MotD
and the Football Echo

Blanket media coverage of the PL has created huge numbers of armchair fans but it has also created unprecedented demand from people who actually want to attend the game, in person.

Compare this to our most successful period of the mid 1980s when average attendances for both Everton and Liverpool were less than 35,000.

As has been stated many times, on ToffeeWeb, the fact we have sold out every PL games for 3 seasons, have a season ticket waiting list of over 10,000 which, according to the club, is increasing, have an outdated ground with 25% obstructed views, poor facilities and poor transport links indicates we would easily sell out 52,000 in a new modern stadium within walking distance of the city centre and north/south rail links.

The club has already given this as their reasons for being confident of a 52,000 sell out for every PL game. That is as we stand now and would still leave many excluded and unable to get tickets and allows no potential for future growth.

Given the current figures I feel we would easily fill 55, 000-60000 for most games and all the extra revenue more bums on seats generates, besides the ticket price.

Once the stadium is built don't expect an extension any time soon. I feel that's just a sop to alleviate criticism of a lack of ambition. We should be aiming to compete with the likes of Man Utd, Arsenal and 'Spurs and not Newcastle etc.

Imagine the demand if we also had a side competing at the top end of the table!

We have a once in a lifetime opportunity; let's not waste it

Tony Abrahams
98 Posted 10/05/2019 at 17:12:02
You make a great argument Bill, and for someone who would be happy with around 55.000 seats/standing, then after reading this and thinking about the way the game has gone over the last few years, then I think you make a lot of sense when you ask for a bigger stadium.
Michael Spear
100 Posted 11/05/2019 at 20:29:07
Probably a bit late for this thread but I'm watching Sunderland v Portsmouth (League 1 playoff, 1st leg...well, it's something to do on a Saturday night) and have noticed the Stadium of Light has its own homage to the great Archibald Leitch whose designs graced one of the stands at the old Roker Park. It's only a small section half way up behind one of the goals, but Leitch's iconic criss -cross pattern is plain to see. OK, it is red and white, but it's a good example of a club respecting its heritage in a new stadium. Let's hope Meiss takes note.
Rob Halligan
101 Posted 11/05/2019 at 20:53:06
Good spot Michael. I've never seen that before but just spotted it now. I think Dan Meis has said they will try and incorporate the criss cross effect somewhere within the new stadium
Paul Birmingham
102 Posted 11/05/2019 at 21:13:21
Rob@101, yes I recall Dan Meis, saying he’d try and incorporate this iconic design into the new stadium at BMD.

Let’s hope this summer sees more positive signs it will happen. Let’s hope also The Uzbek, joins the club, and helps us catch up, soon, and be competing in Europe every season.

This must be the minimum, after such a big investment at BMD.

Time will tell.

Pat Waine
103 Posted 21/05/2019 at 08:19:55
The 52k seat capacity is okay by me and it can rise to 62k. Again, I think that reasonable. The last thing you need is a semi-full stadium, it would have a terrible atmosphere.

All these things take time. I wish we didn't have to consult anyone and we had a dictator running the club and, given the off-the-wall views of some fans, we could do with one.

For once, let us as Evertonians get behind the club and support the concept of the new stadium and let's all move forward with hope into a new era for our great club.

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