England had gone ahead in the 32nd minute through a Marcus Rashford penalty but the Dutch hit back in the second half with a header from Matthijs de Ligt that forced another 30 minutes of play after Jesse Lingard's strike was ruled out by VAR.
The Netherlands then turned the match on its head in the first half of extra time when John Stones was caught in possession near his goal. Pickford made an excellent save but the ball was eventually bundled over the line by a combination of Quincy Promes and Kyle Walker, the latter accredited with an own goal.
England's fate was sealed a few minutes later when Ross Barkley, put under pressure by Stones's pass, gave the ball away and Promes scored Holland's third.
Michael Keane was an unused substitute in the loss but could get a look-in for the third-place play-off against Switzerland.
Reader Comments (237)
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1 Posted 06/06/2019 at 21:58:37
2 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:00:05
3 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:01:32
Soundly beaten for the first goal and absolute idiocy on the second.
On the plus side, Pickford couldn't have been better tonight. That last save was a blinder.
4 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:06:18
5 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:10:37
6 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:16:28
7 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:17:02
8 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:17:23
9 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:17:41
At the other end of the field, a good reminder that, Kane apart, England don't have quality to unlock good teams. Yeah, they ran up the score on Czech Republic and Montenegro but better quality opponents aren't much troubled by the goal threat in this team.
10 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:19:23
11 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:21:57
By the way, who the heck is Gomez? I saw him on the subs' list but never heard of him before.
12 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:22:02
13 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:22:59
14 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:23:58
Gomez Adams. Kind of a creepy older guy? No, it is the centre-half from the RS...
15 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:29:40
And as for Barkley, well what can you say? Next season'll be another when he's more likely to get woodworm in his ass than a hammy from playing.
16 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:36:14
Barkley was probably thrown off by the booing during the Dutch national anthem. Jagielka wasn't there to say "They're not booing you, Ross."
17 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:39:55
18 Posted 06/06/2019 at 22:47:45
Also, what has Jadon Sancho done to earn 5 England caps?
As for the defence, enough has been said already. Southgate needs a wake-up call and hopefully he got that tonight.
19 Posted 06/06/2019 at 23:07:23
20 Posted 06/06/2019 at 00:21:02
The midfield trio tonight - Rice, Delph, Barkley - were weak and overpowered. Stones, Walker and Maguire were all culpable of making terrible decisions/errors. I think Southgate is very bright and articulate but a bit soft on the players and very slow to react to on-field problems.
We also keep over-promoting our young players - Marcus Rashford is 21 and has 32 caps, and yet he still flatters to deceive for me. Hudson-Odoi and Sancho skipped playing for the Under 21s completely. Declan Rice looked out of place tonight; he's a good young player with plenty of promise, but he's not Frenkie de Jong. It's too much too soon.
21 Posted 07/06/2019 at 00:38:56
22 Posted 07/06/2019 at 02:42:31
23 Posted 07/06/2019 at 04:21:02
Now wasn't that a BIG surprise ???
24 Posted 07/06/2019 at 06:06:49
Park end panic merchants and getridofit crew enjoying the occasional consequences of playing the dangerous game
I was listening to a load of Chelsea fans say almost identical things about the brilliant David Luiz a few weeks ago. I thought to myself then "fuck me they have Philistines too ?"
I guess you understand what the the brilliance of players like these two bring . . or you don't
25 Posted 07/06/2019 at 07:32:40
If a player has any real quality he will put in a decent shift in the Derby games, Stones and Barkley never did, usually they were anonymous or worse a liability. Do we want them back ? No thanks.
26 Posted 07/06/2019 at 07:35:08
I still believe to this day that Martinez was the only one thats ever come close to reaching Ross Barkley and getting anything out of him.
As for Stones, well its also good to know that it wasnt Martinez encouraging him to piss about in defence but the very man himself.
Stones clearly has 100 percent faith in his own skills on the ball but it leads to disastrous consequences at times, weve been on the end of many of his mishaps.
27 Posted 07/06/2019 at 08:01:38
Stones got it badly wrong, but what class the kid shows at times, and Im sure if Lingard was onside, then its a goal they would have been showing for years, starting with so much calmness and impudence from the centre-half?
England need better midfield players, then the defenders wont need to take an extra touch, and thats what Southgate has got to find, if his team are to progress?
Stan S, I read the other day that you turn the sound off when you watch a football game on TV? Turn it back on and listen to the shite, being talked by these commentators who are getting paid a fortune mate, but only if youre in a good mood though!
28 Posted 07/06/2019 at 08:07:48
29 Posted 07/06/2019 at 08:13:59
There was a period around the 55m mark where we just could not get the ball off them, whether it was just lack of energy from a long season ?
England were very poor on the night, the midfield was outclassed and then of course we had the two clangers, but to single out Stones and Barkley is missing the point of the whole miserable display.
30 Posted 07/06/2019 at 08:17:50
31 Posted 07/06/2019 at 08:21:28
32 Posted 07/06/2019 at 08:25:58
33 Posted 07/06/2019 at 08:52:48
But part of a top class footballer's game is decision making and that's where Stones, and indeed Kyle Walker (who had a similar lapse) fucked up royally.
I used to do MY job well but if I fucked up and cost the company then I'd get it in the neck if what I'd done was unnecessary and easily preventable.
Darren it's not about NOT understanding, and it's NOT about being a Philistine it's about recognizing that doing the same thing despite what's going on around you, and despite it being the complete wrong thing to do (at that time) gets you punished.
I love to see cultured footballers playing the beautiful game but NOT when it costs you a place in the final of a competition and that's what happened last night, and it was there for all to see.
Support players through thick and thin by all means but when they fuck up badly when it was so simple not to then they're gonna take a bit of stick.
Having said that I thought the team as a whole looked off the pace and tired. Raheem Sterling, usually so brilliant and a player I've really enjoyed watching this season, struggled to find his best form as did a lot of others.
Last night's performance actually looked like the England of old to me.
34 Posted 07/06/2019 at 08:56:00
Andrew #20 has it spot on about this England team and it's selection process - like him, I wasn't taken in by the mass hysteria over their "limp" to last year's WC semi final. Jay#18 also hits the nail on the head.
35 Posted 07/06/2019 at 09:17:21
To be honest I didnt know much about this competition, what was it all about,was it a one off thing? Much ado about nothing.
36 Posted 07/06/2019 at 09:40:10
Martin Tyler was saying that the game was elite level football, and maybe the players are sending out the wrong message by trying to play out from the back, or words to that effect Stan, but only “after” Stones had messed up?
I know I shouldnt go on about these commentators, but the money they are on, and the games they get to see, then Id sooner give the job to sensible football fans across the country, who might just be worth listening to?
37 Posted 07/06/2019 at 10:02:47
38 Posted 07/06/2019 at 10:33:18
39 Posted 07/06/2019 at 10:46:46
Well I don't know why I came her tonight
I've got the feeling that something ain't right.
Clowns to the left of me,
Jokers to the right
Here I am stuck in the middle with you.
40 Posted 07/06/2019 at 10:46:59
just had a chuckle and thought about commentators from TW I would love to hear.
Darren and Jim B as a double act would be worth a listen.
Steve fern to provide some analysis, Mike G would be easy on the ear from what I gather.
The one that has amused me is our very own Florida man, Jamie C. his unabashed bias would be amazing and really watchable
Just pictured him and Souness in the studio on derby day, it would be carnage. My money would be on Jamie to come out as the winner.
As I say I am easily distracted :)
41 Posted 07/06/2019 at 10:48:32
Although Walker has made mistakes imo he would get games at Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Juve etc, but after that who else would ?
Maybe Miguire, possibly Stones (but I doubt it if I'm honest), then who ??
Midfield is average at best, forwards after kane are average apart from Rashford who has potential (same bracket as Sancho and Ali imo) but players who get games regularly for England are just limited imo.
Yes Henderson gets his games in a very good liverpool side (that hurt to say), but hes just workman like, hes just a half decent player at the top level, he isn't ever getting near the top 50 midfielders in world football, not on his best day. Same for Dier, Delph, Barkley, Chamberlain, or any one else we can mention.
Southgate has transformed the England way, it's much better to watch, and with the right influx of talented youngsters it could push us on, but the pundits are correct in saying that we don't have enough good ball players.
A part of the problem is the fact a fair amount of talented English players are held back, they don't play games when there in that vital age group were you can turn from good to excellent.
We are guilty of it ourselves, maybe the lads at us arent England international level, but we had 5 players who started a lot of u20 world cup games in our world cup winning squad, plus Davis was rested due to him playing a lot for us back then, but have we really brought them on at a rate you would like ?
Imo Lookman would be close to that England set up just like Sancho had we accepted that bid last season from Red Bull, yet now hes not even been picked for the u21s.
Hudson-Odoi was only being considered for Chelsea's side because Bayern offered £35m, I mean come on, if Bayern offer that money for an English kid he must be mega talented !
Sancho couldn't get a sniff at City yet rips it up for Dortmund.
Too many of our young lads don't get enough action within our league.
If Madderson at Leicester wants to become all that his potential says he can become he best stay at his current club for at least 2 or 3 more years, hopefully under Rodgers, as he will play. If he jumps over to Utd he will become another Jessie Lindgard, a player who just never really fulfilled his potential.( same as Wilshire, Walcott, Walbeck, and lots of others who chose a career of money and bench warming over playing for lesser teams but gaining massive amounts of experience).
We need the champions league bench warmers like Ross Barkley, Eric Dier and John Stones to either move on or move out, there stagnating as footballers, they can claim all they want (as Ross Barkley has) that they have improved with playing with better players, but the fact is they play training games with them instead of real games against them with other prem sides they will actually get in.
Southgate is doing well, much better than I ever thought he could, but he needs some help from players and managers alike to get young English players playing competitive football.
42 Posted 07/06/2019 at 10:53:35
43 Posted 07/06/2019 at 11:09:29
Barkley for me is still the same player he was with us did some things very well but I never felt he could dominate from midfield against the decent sides. Even for Chelsea he doesnt dominate, maybe thats why he only got starts from the bench for the latter part of last season. And defensively he leaves a lot to be desired. When he left many said watch him now he has better players to play with, well I am sorry I don't see the improvement.
44 Posted 07/06/2019 at 11:10:29
Stones wouldn't displace Keane or Zouma, and Barkley is not as good as Gomes, which means we are advancing as a team too.
Where them two eventually end up is anyone's guess.
45 Posted 07/06/2019 at 11:20:05
I think most people would agree that a ball-playing centre back is a good way to go but it has to be tempered with good decision-making and lack of ego. If Stones loses the cockiness and calculates the percentages better, he could still yet achieve his full potential - but I'm not convinced he will.
I think the criticism of his performance last night is fully justified.
46 Posted 07/06/2019 at 11:26:27
47 Posted 07/06/2019 at 11:38:22
Moyes told Barkley to stay well away from his own penalty area and years later, he's still right.
48 Posted 07/06/2019 at 12:25:14
49 Posted 07/06/2019 at 12:47:46
I lobbied constantly and vocally if we had any ambitions as a football club, we needed to retain them and recruit players of a similar profile to compliment them.
Coached and developed properly at the right time, we could have been looking at one hell of a spine for Everton to which we could have built upon.
The stars on the management and investment side never quite aligned and all moved on. Subsequently, all four could legitimately be placed in the 'nearly, but not quite' category in the pecking order of great footballers.
To varying degress, they can all be considered to have had 'successful' careers without attaining the 'truly elite' label they once promised. It's not too late for any of them to still reach those dizzying heights.
But as a one-off last night, Stones - as with most of the England team - was pretty woeful. They all looked not just physically fatigued, but mentally fatigued. The sharpness and alertness you expect at this level was absent.
I actually thought Barkley was England's best outfield player on the night and our Jordan the only defender who emerged from the game with his reputation intact. ALL of the back four were dreadful, not only Stones. But there is no excusing Stones for the critical second goal England gave up.
Too radical to doff the cap to Koeman for turning Holland around in a relatively short time..? They look a decent side.
50 Posted 07/06/2019 at 12:49:54
51 Posted 07/06/2019 at 13:22:51
Early on, the likes of Barklay were continually coughing the ball up in their own half and was a precursor of what was to come.
52 Posted 07/06/2019 at 13:25:25
Chelsea have indeed appealed their transfer ban to the CAS but the Echo are saying they hope that the CAS will temporarily suspend their ban while reviewing their case. But at this moment their transfer ban still stands.
53 Posted 07/06/2019 at 13:29:52
Si@41, to many young players are getting held back, is “in a nut-shell” imo mate.
Germany won the under 21 World Cup or Euros beating Spain, two years ago, and they were an absolute pleasure to watch, again imo, and this was with about 8 of their original squad being promoted to the senior team, because they were taken to the confederations cup, possibly to gain experience.
Although this was not supposed to be anywhere near Germanys best squad, most of the players had still played senior football the previous season, mostly in the lower divisions of German football, because one thing the Germans excel in, is common sense!
54 Posted 07/06/2019 at 13:33:25
Imo harsh comments R.E Kane, imo hes a quality forward who is easily as good as 2 on your list aswel as being one of the best out and out strikers about.
55 Posted 07/06/2019 at 13:36:07
The transfer ban remains in place, and so will Zouma as a Chelsea player.
56 Posted 07/06/2019 at 13:41:43
57 Posted 07/06/2019 at 13:43:13
Hes getting paid a pittance off the Dutch, because this crafty, horrible, egotist is being very clever, and hes still getting paid a fortune off Everton. Possibly one for Moshiris lawyers in the future, maybe?
58 Posted 07/06/2019 at 14:02:35
Media and Southgate have talked up lack of playing time as an issue but surely players bear some responsibility. Stones, Barkley, Drinkwater, Delph etc were all playing regularly for Prem teams. They decided to leave their clubs and make a ton of money at “big” clubs where there playing was always likely to be minimal. So the “poor England players cant get a game” argument doesnt really sit well with me.
59 Posted 07/06/2019 at 14:15:57
60 Posted 07/06/2019 at 14:17:59
61 Posted 07/06/2019 at 14:47:56
Furthermore Southgate clearly wants the team to play that way and Koeman had the Dutch press them all game. A wider view perhaps?
I will say I thought playing that way in extra-time was questionable when fatigue is definitely a factor. The key element for me was the midfield, the three we started with were too similar and rarely got England out of trouble under the press. Too often they received the ball and it came back to the defenders and eventually to Pickford to clear with a change of possession. Did you see Barkley turn and carry the ball away? We know hes capable. I thought he was very ponderous and often trapped the ball under his feet especially with his back to goal, his ability to assess the situation that deep definitely an issue. Delph too, with just short passes side ways and back, how often does he play there for city?! Stones errors just felt like the symptom not the root cause. To lump on him I think is disingenuous.
Could Southgate have picked a more technical midfield? Certainly you cannot play that way if your midfield three cannot offer a way out of the press.
62 Posted 07/06/2019 at 15:10:48
Nice to see the decisions to sell Stones and Barkley seem to have been the correct ones, strange to see Koeman doing well, when he was a complete failure here. International management seems to suit some. Particularly Martinez, am I correct in saying he is one of the favourites for the Barca job, god help them.
63 Posted 07/06/2019 at 15:58:00
I can't remember many people complaining about Koeman in his first season when we finished 7th playing some decent stuff.
The wheels came off in the second season thanks largely to starting the campaign without a recognised striker after the club forced Koeman to accept Rooney, a player he did not want and who was given the highest salary at £150k/week. This no doubt would have had an impact on who Koeman could bring in and I cannot imagine was positive for the harmony of the squad - an over the hill player coming in earning the highest pay. Never mind his off field antics after.
Once the season started and the results started to go downhill, it was just a matter of time. Having to play Rooney also meant playing our record signing out of position - mistake after mistake. In the end it was inevitable the results would go south. Utter idiocy bringing Rooney back.
I'm not saying RK was a saint but think people are too quick to lay all the blame at this feet. E.g. his treatment of Niasse wasn't great but he was right, Niasse is shite. I still think he's a good manager and the club messed up.
Anyway, that seasons still rankles as it brought us to the low depths of bringing that corrupt twat Allardyce to GP.
64 Posted 07/06/2019 at 16:20:37
I was a fan of Koeman back when he was a player and used to spend hours practicing "Koeman" free kicks. As a manager, even after Everton I am totally on the fence about him. He has had some good seasons (like the current one with the Netherlands) and some terrible ones. He hasn't hung around anywhere for long either. So if we take the old Howard Kendall logic that "it takes 3 years to build a team" you could argue that Koeman has just picked up on other people's work everywhere he has been so his success or failure has more to do with his predecessor. With that being said, Southampton and the Netherlands were both a complete shambles before he arrived. With big stars having moved on, and untried kids and journeymen making up the squad. In both instances he immediately had success. Consequently, I am thinking he might be of the David Moyes mold e.g. someone who can get the best out of limited players, and young kids (who haven't yet got massive egos), but like Moyes he isn't so adept at getting his message across to established "stars" e.g. Rooney or people who falsely think they are stars e.g. Barkley.
65 Posted 07/06/2019 at 17:02:42
Only David Luiz comes close to matching Stones for bravery. They will both take the ball in any position and under any circumstances.
We live in an era of the "High press" Defenders and midfield players find themselves ambushed almost before the ball reaches them. There has to be a get out, either a goalkeeper who is comfortable on the floor, or a center half who will invite them on and play around them. Somebody every member of the team knows will take COMPLETE responsibility.
Take a look at the City Liverpool game a few months back at the Etihad ? I thought I was watching the John Stones show. Klopp`s men pressed for all they were worth, but City players repeatedly played the ball back to him knowing he would take control,responsibility. Very few center halves would have dared to play like that . .even the more skilful ones. They simply wouldnt have the balls to do it.
These guys will never "learn" in a way the philistines want them to. Thats because they don't want to. They know better. . simple as that.
They know they will make a few mistakes in a season, but they are arrogant enough to believe it wont be today.
Its all about success. players like this know morons like Martin Tyler and the putyerfuckinfoothroughit army will round upon every mistake. Magnify it a thousandfold, scream the house down and learn nothing at all in the process. That wont bother either of them.
Stones was most definitely right to dismiss the panic merchants that day. We've had decades of "no nonsense" defenders achieving the sum total of fuck all and they still believe thats the way the game should be played. . These Philistines get exactly what they deserve.
Honestly; I find it truly staggering when I see people say Stones would not get into out team. OUR defenders wouldnt take a chance on a one horse race. Yet they have still made more mistakes than him this season. . Every one of them.
Give me a defender who gives away the occasional goal trying to take an attacker on and start an attack over three wooden tops who find themselves desperately back peddling to defend the most basic ale house ball.
EVERY defender makes a mistake, but for those who have been brought up on a staple diet of "avthatfucker" The mistakes when attempting to play football seem unforgivable.. . truly mind numbing.
Imagine Stones and Luiz meeting up when their playing days are over. They're sitting at a big fuck off table. The table has to be big because they are going to place all their medals down on it. They will not bring the transfer fees the greatest coaches of their generation paid for them, nor the offers that were turned down, why ?. . Because they wouldnt be able to find a table big enough.
Can you imagine the conversation at that table as they lament their nightmare careers ?
"Why didnt we take the safe rout wisely adopted by the likes of Jagielka, Keane, Zouma and Mina ?. T. . Why didnt we take any notice of those wise old Toffeeweb sages - Stephens, Bennings and Thompson ?
66 Posted 07/06/2019 at 17:05:46
Wouldn't touch Barkley. Ive seen plenty of talented players ruin their potential with poor decision-making. He's near the top of that list.
Denis #63, I wonder if Koeman's thinking about Walsh's fruitless trips to Europe, missing out on Sissoko & any striker and how things might have been different had Brands been there instead?
I know I am.
67 Posted 07/06/2019 at 17:13:58
68 Posted 07/06/2019 at 17:20:55
70 Posted 07/06/2019 at 17:33:14
Hes picked two players in Delph and Barkley who barely start for their team and when they do not in those pivotal positions. Poor selection from Southgate and I saw no need to rest those players he chose to.
71 Posted 07/06/2019 at 17:41:18
If he is having a problem in his personal life Southgate should be aware of it and should have left him out last night.
We all know consistency and form goes with keeping the same group together.
Southgate always picks the flavour of the month and chops and changes the side hence we get the likes of Declan Rice, Jadon Sancho and Fabian Delph who should be nowhere near an England team and Rashford and Lingard are still under 23 level imo.
72 Posted 07/06/2019 at 18:07:26
He played well at the end of last season, but for me, if we're going to chase the top six, he won't be a regular.
73 Posted 07/06/2019 at 18:10:22
Playing out from the back, has definitely become a bit of an English obsession though imo, and although I like to see good football, (I love it actually) a lot more goals are scored by the high press causing mistakes, than they are by playing out from the back, and you only have to look over the park, to realise it.
74 Posted 07/06/2019 at 18:21:27
75 Posted 07/06/2019 at 18:33:27
For me mentally looks weak and without the ball is very poor. When we were up against it that only exacerbated his weaknesses. He has some value but tellingly a higher than appropriate wage for his ability. Thats the reason to move him on.
76 Posted 07/06/2019 at 18:33:27
For me mentally looks weak and without the ball is very poor. When we were up against it that only exacerbated his weaknesses. He has some value but tellingly a higher than appropriate wage for his ability. Thats the reason to move him on.
77 Posted 07/06/2019 at 18:48:55
Tony, I just don't buy this Koeman lack of effort stuff. He got a poor DOF who didn't get the players we needed, he clearly couldn't get through to the players and he spat the dummy out. I suspect there was plenty going on behind the scenes as well and he was the easiest to sack.
Leaving home on time doesn't make you a poor manager, but it's a very visible stick to beat him with.
78 Posted 07/06/2019 at 19:41:28
79 Posted 07/06/2019 at 20:19:24
Terrible defence. weak midfield and puny attack. Only Pickford came out of the game with any credit. If it hadn't been for him it would have been at least 5-1.
No doubt the FA is lining up some weak opposition for them to beat so that the pundits can exaggerate how good "the lads" really are as we speak.
80 Posted 07/06/2019 at 20:22:08
If he weren't the last man, his lapses wouldn't be nearly so damaging and his gifts would be put to better use.
I just don't think he'll ever have the judgement to be a top CB.
81 Posted 07/06/2019 at 20:33:00
Tactically Southgate got it wrong should have gone for three at the back with Keane, Stones and Maguire and started with TAA and Rose if he wanted to play from the back allowing Stones to get play as DM more like Guardiola utilise him at times.
82 Posted 07/06/2019 at 20:47:22
Stones is a fine player but needs to start fulfilling himself. He suffers from being so naturally gifted that he has got so far without really trying, and passing off his errors as the sort of lapses allowed to the gifted. He must lose the last bit, quickly.
83 Posted 07/06/2019 at 21:15:45
Yes, the English centre backs were poor but owing to the lack of midfield control too often their only safe options were to pass back to Pickford for a hoof upfield or to apply the order of the hoof themselves. The thing is of course they have both been encouraged to play out from the back and not resort to the hoof. With so little happening in front of them it was almost inevitable they made themselves look stupid.
The evening before I saw another game, Portugal v Switzerland, littered with errors by teams looking short of match practice and fitness. Joao Felix, for whom a ridiculous fee of £106m has been quoted, looked out of his depth. He is only 19, has pace and plenty of time for development but clubs must be barking mad to even contemplate paying such amounts for nothing more than potential.
84 Posted 07/06/2019 at 21:32:21
85 Posted 07/06/2019 at 21:37:10
86 Posted 07/06/2019 at 22:27:50
After tonight's shambles I rest my case. They were not good enough then and they are not good enough now. To play for England is no great shakes these days as they are also not good enough.
87 Posted 07/06/2019 at 23:15:16
88 Posted 07/06/2019 at 23:43:52
Duffy was born 10 years too late. Royle would have loved him to replace Watson alongside Unsie. Theyd have given Adams and Bould a run for their money
89 Posted 07/06/2019 at 23:46:03
Weve never had a creative mid since Gazza.
90 Posted 07/06/2019 at 23:47:35
He is a natural born, God-given central defender (though with wider scope); he just needs to get his head out of his arse and start doing the work to focus his beautiful talent. Him and Holgate (another head wobble required) at central defence, that would be lovely thank you very much. I would buy him back immediately for that pairing, to be developed over the next two seasons.
I accept, of course, that none of that will happen, so it will have to be Keane and Holgate, please. I have high hopes of Keane, really high. It's just that he doesn't have the aesthetic stuff we like; Stones does. Ah, well.
91 Posted 07/06/2019 at 00:21:07
He's now 25 but has never yet been selected for four consecutive games by Guardiola. He played next to no football in City's last third of the season or their Champions League campaign either. Hmm.
I hopefully said, years ago, that he had something of Beckenbauer about him but unless he gets his head out of his ass he'll only end up as memorable as "the great" Des Walker or Mark Wright.
(and as for the contention of David Luiz as a great centre-back, well, Darren Hind certainly does have a sense of humour after all!)
92 Posted 08/06/2019 at 03:59:28
93 Posted 08/06/2019 at 06:45:30
94 Posted 08/06/2019 at 07:15:47
Tony #90, no, I'm not inventing a new position for Stones, I'm suggesting the one I thought he should have been playing for us from day one. I saw him play it against Juventus years ago and was dazzled. He's a tremendously skilled player and outstanding tackler, but he's shit in the air and can't mark, and I've never thought he'd be a top CB because he lacks the mental toughness. Did you know he made a half-dozen appearances at DM for City this season? I still think his future is farther up the pitch, not last man.
And Tony, I'll bet you any amount that it won't be Keane and Holgate in the future, but Keane and Mina.
95 Posted 08/06/2019 at 07:54:48
96 Posted 08/06/2019 at 08:13:31
Luiz will look at his player of the year awards. His title wins in Portugal, France and England. His cup winners medals in every country he has played in. His many caps for Brazil, His federation cup win. His two Europa cup winners medals and his Champions league winners medal. The fact that the world record transfer fee for a center half has been broken twice in order for elite clubs to sign him
And he'll think to himself "I must be one Jammy MF"
97 Posted 08/06/2019 at 08:22:07
While one has already won trophies and played for the worlds richest club, the other will never win a thing and will never get near an elite club.
There are several very good reasons for that
98 Posted 08/06/2019 at 09:04:57
He performed admirably, however the general consensus was that he wasnt a patch on Fernandinho. Stones has only ever had to receive the ball when he has the whole of the game in front of him, when in midfield he had to receive it and turn. The result was that Man Citys high tempo game slowed significantly as he didnt have the speed of thought that Fernandinho did when receiving, turning and passing.
He did well, but without significant games in midfield hell never make it there at a club challenging for the title. He will in defence.
99 Posted 08/06/2019 at 09:09:57
Hes not a patch on Alan Stubbs who also lacked pace but made up for it with other qualities, like reading the game and organising the defence. Keane gives me palpitations nearly every time the opposition attack.
100 Posted 08/06/2019 at 09:27:22
As for Stones, I'd have him back, OK, there's a mistake there somewhere in some games, but can't that also be said of Keane? Or Pickford? Or Zouma?
And yes, he's better than Beckenbaur.
But Beckenbaur's 73 now.
101 Posted 08/06/2019 at 10:02:26
Telling that after City got back on terms with the RS last season, certainly towards the end of the season the great pass pass pass expert Guardiola preferred the more no nonsense 200 year old Kompany to the young elegant Stones
102 Posted 08/06/2019 at 10:14:51
If he had Duffy's tackling and aerial ability and cut out the obvious mistakes then there really is a player who could be Beckenbaur's equivalent but even Guardiola seems to have his doubts and having tried him in midfield positions he too sees a player but as a defender, one who makes too many unnecessary, easily omitable mistakes. I suppose you have to ask yourself which would you take first, Stones or Zouma.
Stand by for the Pelican to come in with his usual personal attack as he sees, unlike Stones, an alternative to his acceptance of something other than that which is in line with the club's motto.
103 Posted 08/06/2019 at 10:41:35
I know possession is important in a game, but if the ball is 80 yards away from your goal then the opposition aren't going to score. Leave all the fancy stuff to the midfielders and forwards, when, should they lose the ball, it won't result in the ball ending up in the back of their net.
104 Posted 08/06/2019 at 11:36:31
If you could take Duffy's tackling and aggressive heading ability in the opposition box and Stoness undoubted calmness and ability to bring the ball out then you'd have some player!
As for coaching, I don't know what happened at Finch Farm but the penny must have dropped because our defensive record for the last part of the season was up there with the best. Maybe there is someone there who could improve Stones?
105 Posted 08/06/2019 at 11:56:47
106 Posted 08/06/2019 at 12:05:32
If only we can get Zouma, it'll make things so much easier! Chelsea have appealed to the CAS to have their ban overturned, apparently, so we can keep our fingers crossed.
107 Posted 08/06/2019 at 12:08:22
A couple of mistakes for England in a glorified friendly doesn't make him a bad player.
The "if in doubt, kick it out" mentality went out of football years ago thank god.
A modern centre back needs to be comfortable on the ball and start moves from the back. That's probably why Chelsea let Zouma go out on loan for 2 years as they think they have better footballing defenders.
Zouma has no doubt improved that side of his game meaning it will be hard for us to bring him in full time.
On the other hand, I wouldn't welcome Barkley back. He is punching above his weight at Chelsea thanks to his agent. Conte didn't want him and Sarri eventually dropped him.
108 Posted 08/06/2019 at 12:24:19
The same applies to Barkley and may be say Deulofeu as players of obvious ability who need a coach and team tactics to get the best out of their obvious ability. I'm not sure I wouldn't put the likes of Davies, Lookman and possibly Kenny and Dowell in that category as well. Sometimes you have to ask yourself how Digne seems to be so comfortable with what he does and how much is natural and how much improvement through decent coaching.
109 Posted 08/06/2019 at 12:31:09
Some very interesting points in this article.
110 Posted 08/06/2019 at 13:04:58
It provides a little window into the mindset of so many people brought up to "clear their lines". I think the most telling fact is after playing well in the world cup and all season for City. Some could not wait to jump all over Stones for a mistake in a tournament nobody will remember next week.
I'm glad Rob brought Bobby Moore into the discussion.
Moore was brilliant, truly brilliant, but to say he didnt have mistake in him or that he didnt occasionally take a gamble too many would be just plain untrue. I remember Jimmy husband picking his pocket twice in as many minutes. . .He got away with those. I also remember another when he was robbed when attempting to take a man on and it cost England a world cup place. He made far more costly errors in high profile games than Stones ever has.. . but if Bobby Moore didnt play the way he did, England would still be waiting for the day when they could call themselves world Champions. He was a giant. He was also a proper footballer.
Moore retired over half a century ago. . A succession of steady Eddies who knew "when to get rid" have followed and the national team have been systematically dispatched in every tournament since.
Stones was dominating not just City's defence. he was dominating their style of play. He was just too classy for top opposition trying to squeeze him - Most noticeably when he repeatedly side stepped the famous RS famous "High press" as if he was on the beach. . .City were winning games by cricket scores.
When he got injured and had to sit it out those who stepped in made it impossible for Guardiola to drop them. That's what happen when your team mates are world class too. . but in nearly all their games towards the end, it was pretty evident that City were not as potent going forward, they had to fight for almost every point. They were defensively sound, but they had stopped blowing the opposition away.
Luiz will be on the slide now, but Stones will be back playing for an elite club and will win many more trophies. The quaint little notion that they should have the risk "coached out of their game" made me laugh out loud.
It wont happen, because they wont let it happen. When a 20 year old is confident enough to tell 3,000 people to calm down. You can bet he believes in what he is doing.
The fact that so many on here were so quick to jump on an error from a former player, playing in a competition which only draws interest because theres nothing else happening would suggest Stones has not been forgiven. I'm sure he'll be distraught about that. He's winning and will continue to win trophies. . And years later, they`re still panicking
111 Posted 08/06/2019 at 13:17:02
But they also have/had the other string to their bow because they had the ability to bring the ball out and to play football.
112 Posted 08/06/2019 at 13:18:34
113 Posted 08/06/2019 at 13:45:19
Moores performance against Pele et al in 1970 was, of course, magnificent.
114 Posted 08/06/2019 at 14:00:08
But the fact remains that the lad can be a liability. Tony Cascarino's piece in the Times today is well worth a read.
115 Posted 08/06/2019 at 14:07:43
I never hold it against him that he left us,he was a Yorkshire lad and had no allegiance to Everton, we made good money on him and made a good deal himself and went on to better things, with more happy days to come for him.
116 Posted 08/06/2019 at 14:14:14
"But the fact remains that the lad can be a liability. Tony Cascarino's piece in the Times today is well worth a read". And Daniel Taylor's full page article in the Grauniad today takes a similar tack ("Stones's failure to grow up").
Like you Dave (#115) I never held it against him to move elsewhere.
117 Posted 08/06/2019 at 14:25:38
It is about balance. When you're in the world cup versus Panama or in the premier league facing Troy Deeney or some lazy attacker like Sanchez or Lukaku, then yeah you can do Cruyff turns in the six yard box until the cows come home. But if you're up against a skilled attacker, who is pressing, and working his socks off, then you have to have some respect for your opponent. Yes Stones has skills but Dempay has better skills hence why he is an attacker and not a CB. So if he is all hyped up and not giving you an inch of space then you shouldn't just keep playing around as a point of principle. It is OK and wiser to just clear your lines. It doesn't mean you have suddenly become John Scales or Neil Ruddock. It just means that in that moment you made a correct tactical decision.
118 Posted 08/06/2019 at 14:33:21
Exactly. I never get this "so and so is a traitor he should have been loyal to us" unless we are talking about someone home grown who professes his love of the club e.g. Rooney, Barkley. Everyone gave Lescott grief but if he was loyal he would have stayed at Wolves to begin with. Ditto Lukaku at Anderlecht and so on. In Stones case the club seemed quite happy to let him go and reinvest the money. It was only after the Ashley Williams deal and other went south that suddenly people are second guessing the deal.
119 Posted 08/06/2019 at 14:38:24
And the conclusion; everybody else is wrong.
Then stand by to personally abuse others to cover the fact that not everybody, possibly not even the majority, agree with you.
Have an opinion by all means but don't abuse and call others names for having their own opinions.
120 Posted 08/06/2019 at 14:40:32
He plays high risk, high reward football. Errors he makes are inevitably critical ones. So what? Are we balancing that out with the times he succeeds? Modern football demands that all positions give more than their nominal moniker. In sides who dominate the ball the back four cant just sit back and admire the rest of the lads! The number of outstanding, purely defensive centre halves, is dwindling, thats just not the game any more.
Duffy is an outmoded style of defender, Keane only slightly better. ‘Rats was more Stones than Duffy but we didnt mind him!
Stones will only get better.
121 Posted 08/06/2019 at 15:13:12
The reason I watch elite football is to see people do things with a ball that I never could. To take the risks I wouldnt dare.
All those steady Eddy stoppers named above - Zouma, Keane, Mina, Duffy etc may all be faster fitter and more athletic than me, but I never saw any of them do ANYTHING with a ball that I couldn't.. . and unless you have/had the touch of the arse end of a pantomime horse neither have you.
Stones does stuff us fans can only dream of doing. Not only does He take more chances than all of the above put together, He has been more successful than all of them put together. . . Wonder why that is ?
It's not that difficult to understand. . is it ?. . The more responsibility a player takes. the more he risks being a liability.
Every player Stones has ever played with has been more than happy to knock the ball and the responsibilty back to him knowing they are putting him under pressure. including world class players like De Bruyne and Silva. They know he is confident enough to draw players on therefore creating space for them he can put it back into.
It takes class, skill, awareness and enormous bottle to do what John stones does. He could very easily take the easy option and become a steady no nonsense type, become half the player he is, but why the fuck would he ? Why would he ditch his natural game because some don`t understand it ?
You tube Poland vs England 1973.
Moore was never a row Z merchant. he had balls of steel and took responsibilty too. In even higher profiles games and as you can see. He sometimes paid a very heavy penalty - There were Philistines around back then too - but he was my fall time favorite non-Everton player. Loved him
122 Posted 08/06/2019 at 15:20:58
123 Posted 08/06/2019 at 15:27:57
The key word is judgement and at the higher levels judgement is just as important as Skill and confidence or in Stones case overconfidence.
When it works the lad is a pleasure to watch but when you are the last man in defence any professional will tell you you do NOT take chances.
He could and should have passed it to Pickford and gone into space to receive it back but he didnt and as some have pointed out it is a major flaw in his game because it is a recurring theme.
Now that doesnt make him a bad player, far from it, but it does mean good opponents will look to exploit that.
124 Posted 08/06/2019 at 15:28:07
Jim Baxter, Willie Henderson, John Charles, Alan Gilzean, Best. privileged to have seen such talent.
That could be a thread of it's own, favourite none Everton player. Tommy Smith anyone?
125 Posted 08/06/2019 at 15:32:11
I, like you love watching elite footy and silky skills but don't want to see anyone in my team make schoolboy errors.
Stones has some great attributes but the truth of the matter is he, through making schoolboy errors lost England the game.
126 Posted 08/06/2019 at 16:02:05
The absolutism of some and their views is always entertaining on TW, even if not 'entertaining' in the way they possibly intended.
Between all the extremism (cutting both ways) about John Stones, there is plenty of reasonable and balanced views on the lad, and comparisons to our own players.
There are plenty who praise Stones and would welcome him back, but at the same time make the very legitimate point that he is prone to serious gaffs. This is known by fans and most certainly known by coaches and players. He can be 'got at' in certain situations.
Such was the case v Holland. Elite athletes take nano-seconds to make the right decision in-game. Stones had a 15 yards start and 4-5 seconds to do the right thing in the situation. His decision making was poor and it failed in the first priority in any defender's job description: don't concede a goal.
It was part of a general malaise from the entire England side on the night. Not only did they look physically fatigued, but also mentally fatigued.
I am 100% sure John Stones will be self-critical of his own performance, given his own words just 3 games into his City career under Pep Guardiola:
"We can all regroup from putting it in row Z sometimes. From last season [at Everton] to the start of this season [at City] I'm realising when to do it. That's where I believe I have come on quite a lot as a player.
"I was doing things before and then afterwards I would think, 'Why have I done that? Why haven't I just put it out in row Z?' Already I can see a difference in my decision-making."
Here's the link to the full article:
In his own words, then, it's not the case of being an 'either-or' defender - either a hoofer or a cultured ball player - but rather, an 'and-and', a defender capable of doing both as the situation demands.
Stones himself believes he is both.
He simply made the wrong play Thursday night.
127 Posted 08/06/2019 at 16:05:39
128 Posted 08/06/2019 at 16:06:09
129 Posted 08/06/2019 at 16:15:21
Indeed Stones has wonderful skills.
Stones, like all defenders, makes errors.
All players make errors
Stones, like all other defenders, from Bobby Moore to Beckenbauer to Labone to Luiz just has to realise that there are times when the ball has to be cleared route one.
Hoofing the ball out when circumstances dictate doesnt mean hes shite or a bad defender.
Actually it means hes learning from past mistakes and becoming a better defender
Some are just blinkered and cant accept anything but their own point of view
130 Posted 08/06/2019 at 16:38:30
131 Posted 08/06/2019 at 16:38:30
132 Posted 08/06/2019 at 16:42:00
The number of times a player like Stones can beat the press versus the number of errors is so far in favor of the the former that its completely worth the risk. Nothing wrong with his judgement just the execution, I bet he and both his coaches would want him to do the same time over. Its also worth noting Stones might have been the fall guy but the players in that system, especially the midfield three created most of that pressure because they were unable to carry the ball out of the press. They consistently left Walker, Stones and Maguire with little or no choice, no coincidence they all made huge errors. Walker gifted the ball to Depay, Maguire ruined down by his own goal line. It was only a matter of luck Holland didnt score. Yet the majority of the comments are all about Stones?! Make of that what you will.
133 Posted 08/06/2019 at 16:43:41
Stones, in my opinion, will never be great central defender. He needs a strong player to be with him so Stones can be a "sweeper", a position long forgotten but to which he is best suited in a back line. Playing him in front of that back line is the obvious position for me. Pity we will not see it.
134 Posted 08/06/2019 at 16:49:25
Players these days seem to get lauded before theyve earned it. He came into the Everton team almost by accident and had a few decent games and was decent on the ball! However the fact that he was English and young made people go totally over the top about him! This is partly because passing out from the back was the order of the day!
Naturally as a centre half myself ( at a very low level) I took a keen interest in watching him play closely. After a while it became clear to me that he is an average defender at best! He struggled physically against your Andy Carroll types and loses concentration and position against your Aguero types added to this his mistakes from over playing and he really is not worth his place in any top team despite being perceived as so good on the ball!
At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur defenders should be good at defending first and foremost and John Stones is average at best! Give me an in his prime Jagielka over Stones any day of the week despite his passing limitations! Of course if you want both skills it pains me to say you look no further than Van Dyke! ( hard to write that as I really cant abide him !!)
Stones is 25 now and really shouldnt me making these mistakes! Cruyff turns in extra time of a semi final at 1-1. Sorry but if I tried that in my team I quite rightly be crucified by my team mates!
135 Posted 08/06/2019 at 17:04:54
136 Posted 08/06/2019 at 17:06:48
We were not good enough to beat Holland.
There becomes a time in every close match when, if you want to win, somebody has to start taking risks. You either take them yourself or you expect somebody else to take them. The overwhelming majority of players will not put their necks on the line. Only the brave do that.
Stones knows he takes risks, Fuck knows enough people will tell him and he knows the consequences when they backfire - if his hands on his head or pained expression doesn't tell people that. they can always check out this blindingly insightful revelation in post 126. The guy has enormous belief in his own ability and that belief will dictate his decision making until the day he hangs up his boots.
If the defenders who don't take risks were immune to making game costing errors then it would be a different debate. but they're not. Safety first football is punished virtually every week, poor judgment when attacking corners is punished every week. lack of courage is punished every week. poor control is punished every week. . There will not be many defenders who made less mistakes than Stones did last season. He just makes the kind of errors the no nonsense crowd find unforgivable.
Me ? I find getting caught in possession when trying to play, infinitely more forgivable than conceding a goal because some lighthouse couldnt control it, or somebody panicked and wacked it out straight to an opponent. Or some clown could'nt judge the flight of a ball simple ale house ball.
This isn't what the hard of thinking would call "absolutism", nor is it about "extremism" (we`re debating football here ffs) Its about what people want to see.
Safety first football may keep you in a game, but it wont win it for you.
In over sixty years of watching the game I have yet to trouble the edge of my seat watching some one playing safety first. and other than one or two depressing examples I don't remember safety first winning too many trophies in that time.
I want to see risk taking and I want to see the risk takers succeed.
If people are so outraged by what they saw the other night, why watch? . the guy destined to become the most decorated English center back of his generation will continue to do exactly what it says on his tin.
Fuck. I wish he still played for us
137 Posted 08/06/2019 at 17:26:19
In my humble opinion John has improved massively since leaving Everton, in saying that he still has a mistake a game in him. As pointed out above there will not be many defenders who made less mistakes than him last season.
Two points contribute to that school of thought. He only played 20 league games. City have an average ball possession of over 75% for each game. You can't make defensive mistakes when the opposition haven't got the ball.
138 Posted 08/06/2019 at 17:29:23
John #120 and others, the other part of my criticism of Stones, aside from his judgement, is that he often doesn't do well on the fundamentals of defending. Specifically, as we saw on that corner kick, he's a lousy marker and gets caught out of position. Silky skills or not, you still have to do the basics. But John, you're absolutely right at #132, the other England defenders flopped as well.
Tony #131, thanks for posting that quote. I continue to predict that Mina will put us through hell for the first 20 games of next season with his rawness and mistakes -- and by January will be one of the best CBs in the Prem.
139 Posted 08/06/2019 at 17:54:19
That's not risk-taking, it's reckless and self-indulgent to the team's and fans' cost. The pass he made to start the offside goal shows the other side of him and that's the side that'll prevail in our memories if he ever manages to sort his own head out. Jay Wood (#126) quotes Stones himself as having said when he signed for City, "I was doing things before and then afterwards I would think, 'Why have I done that? Why haven't I just put it out in row Z?'", so even Stones himself seems to differ from you.
And on the "Cruyff Turn", well the first time I saw it the great man was on the edge of the opponent's area, not his own. 'Nuff said.
140 Posted 08/06/2019 at 18:06:14
Oh I bet Cruyff would and could make that turn in his own area, arrogant S*B he was!! 😜
141 Posted 08/06/2019 at 18:16:39
142 Posted 08/06/2019 at 18:34:43
143 Posted 08/06/2019 at 18:35:01
Amen to that.
144 Posted 08/06/2019 at 18:39:09
Ya would think so, wouldn't ya?
Evidently not for some (or one in particular).
Hey-ho! DH is in the house! Groundhog Day!
145 Posted 08/06/2019 at 18:48:08
Rob #142, I'd be willing to bet he thinks about that every day.
146 Posted 08/06/2019 at 20:52:28
147 Posted 08/06/2019 at 20:54:56
It simply means he is like everyone else on the planet. When it goes right he probably gives it little thought and when it goes wrong he thinks "I fucked up there"
Most of us would have known he knows when he'd fucked up by his reactions. . some, will have read about it and think they have unearthed a bombshell - no prizes for guessing who.
Nobody has disputed Stones makes occasional errors with his risky play, the argument here is about whether the rest of his game is strong enough to bracket him as a top player.. Would he have been so sought after by the likes of Pep and Jose if he played a safe no nonsense game ? if he did what the PEPM's wanted him to do, would have still been struggling in a team trying to crack the top eight ? Would he have won all those caps ?
If you want an example of a superfluous argument, you might want to take a look at the one which claims; He's crap in the air. He cant play center half. Not strong enough, Has no natural awareness, cant tackle. loses his man easily and fucks about with it too much
That argument has been laid bare, by the fact that he is one of the youngest center halves in history to have won the two medals playing against the finest opponents in the toughest league in the world.
Players like Stones and Luiz will continue to have to make more tough calls.
While the Steady Eddies of the premiership are impressing the shrewd judges by practicing hitting row Z in preparation for another fruitless, no nonsense season. Those two will have to decide which of their winners medals they are going to polish first.
No doubt the Philistines will be up in arms if they make the wrong call
148 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:18:20
149 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:23:09
Stones got the balance wrong, badly. There can't be any argument there. Anyone who watched the game knows he fucked up not once but twice. It doesn't make you a Philistine because you're annoyed that someone with his skills didn't also have the decision-making smarts to realise what he should have done rather than what he did do. He fucked up and he's gonna take stick for it. That's about the bottom line here really.
Going back to balance, I'd say that, if the balance between making mistakes that lose your team big games and successfully playing it out from the back under pressure gets out of kilter, then you need to readdress the balance.
I mentioned in an earlier post and I stick by it. It's all about decision-making and he made the wrong decision "twice" in a relatively short period of time. Didn't need to Row Z it, just needed to make a better decision.
Is he a top player as you say? Yeh he probably is. Did he fuck up royally and deserve a fucking good roasting for it? Yes he did.
Does being annoyed with what he did make me a Philistine? Not in my book, Darren mate, just makes me pissed off that England failed at the semi-final stage again when failure was avoidable with better decision making.
That's me done on it anyway. Time to look forward to arguing like fuck over work permits. 😁😁😁
150 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:24:55
151 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:30:06
152 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:31:36
153 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:33:49
154 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:39:13
You're right, its not that black and white. Lets hope the cocky bastard drops a couple of monumental clangers against us
155 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:39:59
Now, I don't recall anyone saying he lacks awareness or can't tackle -- hell, I think he one of the best-tackling CBs in the world. He picks great angles and executes them superbly. And his other talents are so extravagant that managers like Pep and Jose have found his potential irresistible.
But I would argue he has not yet fully realized that potential at 25, and I don't think he will. Yes, he again won a medal this year, but when that medal was at stake he was mostly on the bench. When the title was being decided in the final four games of the year, he played a total -- a TOTAL -- of eight minutes. Started only 3 of City's last 11 games. For the most important game of all, he was left out of the squad completely. When the chips were down, Pep didn't trust him. Gave him plenty of time to practice polishing the medal that his teammates won for him.
Stones has always had the potential to be elite. After 200 top-level appearances, I don't consider him an elite CB, and I don't believe he will be.
156 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:41:22
Don't get you Rob over that sarcastic bit, why would I be that way?
157 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:43:05
158 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:46:40
159 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:47:50
I remember going to see us play Juve in San Francisco, and at the pregame Everton party there was an older gent wearing a Gueye #19 jersey. I chuckled to Lyndon that that was one shirt that wouldn't have any staying power as a souvenir. No Gueye nostalgia.
160 Posted 08/06/2019 at 21:52:32
161 Posted 08/06/2019 at 22:42:34
I thought I was done with this thread but you are not getting away trying to fob me off with that nonsense.
He played in the away grounds at all the top clubs – Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs. They kept clean sheets at Spurs, Anfield and the Emirates... He also played in the 6-0 demolition of Chelsea and put in a MotM performance in the biggest game of the season against Liverpool... and Pep didn't trust him???
The Premier League is decided over 38 games and, despite injury costing him his place, he played considerably more games than Otamendi and Kompany – neither of whom played in those massive, title-deciding games... Yet THEY "won the league for him"??? My arse.
You`re sounding really churlish here and it doesn`t suit you.
162 Posted 08/06/2019 at 22:44:23
163 Posted 08/06/2019 at 23:00:40
164 Posted 08/06/2019 at 23:32:31
Not sure where you got this "injury costing him his place" fairy tale, but it's not true. He was injured at Bournemouth in March and missed exactly one game because of it, at Watford.
The "massive, title deciding games" were the 14 in a row they had to win at the end. Even one draw would have cost them the title. Yes, one of those was at Chelsea, and Stones played the full 90. But down to the end, he was left out for LaPorte and Kompany. And the biggest game of all wasn't Liverpool, it was OT, and he was left out by Pep. Didn't even make the bench ahead of Otamendi.
You view it your way, and I'll view it mine, but when the season's at stake, you put your best 11 on the pitch, and Stones wasn't there. He was an unused passenger.
165 Posted 09/06/2019 at 00:33:12
Jay (123) finds the head of the nail for me; it's about judgement. It's about timing. It's about taking the advantage when you have it.
Defenders will always be scrutinised for the mistakes they make, and Stones is rightly under the spotlight right now. I like that he takes risks, and want him (and others) to continue to do so, but pirouetting on the edge of the area with no cover in case it goes wrong – and passing to a marked Barkley on the edge of the England area – were poorly calculated risks that had very little upside and huge downside.
I have always been a fan of his, and would love to have him back in Everton blue, but his judgement is far from world-class. I also think he can seem to coast at times, and is prone to lapses in focus/concentration. Ability-wise he is right up there though.
166 Posted 09/06/2019 at 02:01:25
I'm with Mike Gaynes on this one.
I don't doubt, like Ashley Williams and Yerry Mina and others before him, he'll have, somewhere along the line, one good short, flatter to deceive tournament. Also, being a contender for an England spot is no big recommendation these days
The proof of the pudding (potential pun alert) will be if Pep offers him a new improved contract.
You never can tell, but I don't think any other top 6 team will be in for him.
167 Posted 09/06/2019 at 06:52:21
You sound like the guy who couldn't bring himself to give credit to the Gourmet chef he didn't like and opted to praise somebody else because they served dessert.
Stones was reported as unwell before the game. Fair play to Kompany, he too is world class and, once he was in, he made himself undroppable... but take a closer look at your argument. After the minor injury, Stones was back for Chelsea and Man City smashed them.
In the remaining ELEVEN games, City scrapped their way to victory against Premier League juggernauts like West Ham, Bournemouth, Watford, Swansea, Fulham, Cardiff, Brighton (twice), Burnley and Leicester and – in the "toughest game of the season" – against an appalling Man Utd team who finished over 30 points behind them.
Unlike Otamendi and Kompany, Stones played the majority of games. He played against ALL the top teams, keeping clean sheets at Anfield, The Emirates and Spurs. He played in the REAL game of the season when Man City wrested back control against the RS - In fact he dominated it. The teams mentioned above all have top class players and City could easily have slipped up in one of those games handing the title to RS. They didn't.
Stones was imperious in those games. His poise skill and willingness to play was the catalyst for many a Man City attack. They were simply blowing teams away... He is a champion because he deserves to be. You can't change that fact.
And to say players who played in considerably less games against inferior opposition "won the title for him" demonstrates a resentment. Your reluctance and inability to give due credit is born out of the fact that you regularly want to portray him as somebody with a boatload of deficiencies. It does your argument no good at all when he keeps winning titles.
Only just seen your post. Get meself into training? I think that's a cracking idea.
I'm in my sixties. I'm two stone overweight. I drink unhealthy amounts of alcohol. I've only just recovered from a bit of a health scare. I have arthritis, suffer from Gout... and without me Giggs, I'm blind as a bat.
But if Yerry Mina can be considered...?
168 Posted 09/06/2019 at 08:57:10
169 Posted 09/06/2019 at 10:39:08
In this respect, he struggled with us when we struggled as a team, and is vulnerable with England at times because England are not as good and fluid a team as is being made out in the media. In other words, they've been a tad over-rated, and their basic mediocrity doesn't 'best fit' John Stones.
It strikes me he's a brilliant player when the team plays well, but vulnerable otherwise. He's not a player to raise a struggling or mediocre side. He fits in perfectly at Man City, and probably would fit in well at the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona. He needs to be surrounded by outstanding players to bring the best out in him.
Some very good players are just like that. You wouldn't select them when the chips are down, but you'd be confident they'd keep a well-oiled machine working. It's not unusual for some very good players, world-class ones included, to be like that.
170 Posted 09/06/2019 at 11:34:28
171 Posted 09/06/2019 at 12:19:03
172 Posted 09/06/2019 at 14:48:04
At Everton and England, and, to be fair, most clubs really, they can't afford for a defender to make mistakes like that which leads to goals given away. Even the RS can't cede daft goals which is why Van Dijk was brought in to shore up their leaky defence.
Stones is a highly gifted player, of that there is no doubt; however, to make the step from a good player to a great player, then he needs to learn when to play out of defence and when to put his foot through the ball.
There is no shame in clearing your lines and it certainly doesn't make you a philistine to appreciate that a player has made sure that the opposition doesn't have the chance to score a goal. All the great centre-halves occasionally have to clear lines – it's just a part of the game – and doesn't make you into a hacker just because you do.
173 Posted 09/06/2019 at 14:52:51
174 Posted 09/06/2019 at 15:05:56
175 Posted 09/06/2019 at 15:32:33
You'd get better odds on Darren getting through the door into the VAR booth!
176 Posted 09/06/2019 at 15:41:01
177 Posted 09/06/2019 at 15:43:11
178 Posted 09/06/2019 at 16:12:10
179 Posted 09/06/2019 at 16:23:53
180 Posted 09/06/2019 at 16:47:04
181 Posted 09/06/2019 at 16:48:02
182 Posted 09/06/2019 at 16:50:02
183 Posted 09/06/2019 at 16:50:07
184 Posted 09/06/2019 at 16:50:54
185 Posted 09/06/2019 at 16:56:15
186 Posted 09/06/2019 at 16:57:17
187 Posted 09/06/2019 at 17:11:39
When he was sold by... the lamentable Martinez, I was truly gutted. I genuinely saw him as our future captain. Imagine Duffy and Ratcliffe as our central defensive pairing; it would have been formidable.
In the dark days of Allardyce, I would have loved him back. It is with a heavy heart that I feel Duffy and Everton and parted for good and I believe, on reflection, it is for the best.
Champions League is our goal and I believe that Shane would struggle. Now alongside the right player, Stones for example, he could get away with it, maybe more than that (see how I already doubt myself). I see Stones and Zouma as the dream team but Zouma will be gone and Stones is never coming back.
So, I believe it will be Holgate, Mina and Keane. I think Holgate can be our new Stones, Keane the new Jags... and Mina, well I have a feeling that, when he settles, and if he is given time and patience, he will be fine.
If Shane came back, it would give me a huge buzz, but that ship has sailed.
188 Posted 09/06/2019 at 17:17:58
189 Posted 09/06/2019 at 17:20:36
Jordan the man! I love the CR7 pose before taking his stonking pen. And a top-top save to win it.
He looked like the only England player who took serious delight in the victory and celebrated with gusto.
Another penalty shoot out he has won for England.
Good on yer, lad.
190 Posted 09/06/2019 at 17:29:09
191 Posted 09/06/2019 at 17:34:10
192 Posted 09/06/2019 at 17:37:47
193 Posted 09/06/2019 at 17:46:27
194 Posted 09/06/2019 at 17:49:41
I've cancelled my BT subscription as I refuse to contribute to Robbie Savage's wage. Another rs btw.
195 Posted 09/06/2019 at 17:55:24
He is one of our best buys ever and we are lucky to have him, that he has become a real blue is also great. That he is young is another fantastic bonus. I love his eccentric behaviour.
196 Posted 09/06/2019 at 18:05:23
197 Posted 09/06/2019 at 19:37:20
198 Posted 09/06/2019 at 19:44:18
199 Posted 09/06/2019 at 19:59:24
Talking of Robbie Savage. I was very sorry to hear Justin Edinburgh past away today. I had the great pleasure of being involved in several coaching sessions with him. Even when he was playing for Spurs he couldn't resist getting involved. All the fun in the world. He'd try anything once. Eventually became coach of Rushden & Diamonds when they made their bid for glory in the noughties.
Edinburgh was a decent defender for Spurs for years, but perhaps his most famous moment was when he squared up to Robbie "Wanker" Savage at Wembley. Having initiated it, Savage went down as if Mike Tyson had hit him and stayed down. Edinburgh got his marching orders. He was eventually awarded his medal because slow-motion pictures showed there was no contact whatsoever.
Loving your stance. What a disagreeable fucker Savage is...
Paul T and Tony A.
There are no circumstances under which I would rule in RS favour of the RS. If I get the job... Lump on!
200 Posted 09/06/2019 at 20:13:26
JP #193, I had the same thought. I saw Chilavert play a lot in South American qualifiers and tournaments. What a keeper, and what an artist on dead balls. I believe he scored about 40 league goals in his career, and I know he scored 8 for Paraguay.
201 Posted 09/06/2019 at 20:25:57
8 mins in, Jesus scores for Brazil thanks to 3 quick plays by our boy, recognized by the commentators:
"Richarlison is becoming the inspiration, the great hope for Brazil in the Copa America."
In (yet another) absence of Neymar due to injury, Brazil is desperately looking for a new 'main man'. Irish fans may like the fact that in Brazil the playmaker is called 'the Craque' and the MotM 'o Craque Do Jogo'.
And there is a growing belief in Brazil that the new Craque could well be Richarlison.
And whilst I write this, he plays Coutinho in, clear on goal with just the keeper to beat, but the Barca man pulls it wide when it was easier to score.
202 Posted 09/06/2019 at 20:29:18
203 Posted 09/06/2019 at 20:39:37
204 Posted 10/06/2019 at 04:14:51
Which begs the question; Do I believe the best centre-half this country has produced in decades was taken out of the firing line by a manager who was a little more astute than Southgate...?
Or do I believe the cockeyed theory that, after playing so brilliantly against all the top sides in this country, often keeping cleans sheets in the process, that Pep suddenly lost confidence in his man? On the back of the 6-0 mauling of Chelsea???
205 Posted 10/06/2019 at 08:08:32
Whether or not you think he is an excellent player, to me there's no doubt any team with him in has a soft centre.
206 Posted 10/06/2019 at 08:24:58
Apparently there is a WhatsApp group and Stones has been given loads of stick on it. Saying how could he dump his girlfriend for the other. Allegedly the two events are not related. Stones is very unhappy being the centre of attention.
207 Posted 10/06/2019 at 10:21:36
208 Posted 10/06/2019 at 11:54:23
209 Posted 10/06/2019 at 12:41:25
Remembering how he was crying in the service station after receiving a bit of stick from Evertonians, then I would think that this is a much bigger deal for the kid (yes, he's still only a kid) and will definitely be affecting him mentally?
210 Posted 10/06/2019 at 12:46:08
And if he's traded his proper bird in, for one of these clever little gold-diggers, then I wouldn't be surprised if we've already seen the best of John Stones...
211 Posted 10/06/2019 at 13:56:16
Yes, John Stones was a nice genuine home bird, both he and his long-time girlfriend preferred the quiet life, as did both their families. Being in the public eye a lot more has changed their lifestyles and I think John, apart from being a genuine lad was maybe very naive and not very street-wise, he'd be eaten up by the wolves who hang around footballers these days.
It's a very sad tale for both families to absorb and John will most probably rue the day he finished with his young girlfriend. That's life and life is not a fairy tale.
212 Posted 10/06/2019 at 14:25:48
213 Posted 10/06/2019 at 14:37:22
You're not quite right on your last sentence though mate. There are a few who could more than fill the shoes of Les Dawson & Roy Barraclough. 🤣🤣
214 Posted 10/06/2019 at 14:44:55
215 Posted 10/06/2019 at 14:50:53
216 Posted 10/06/2019 at 15:14:01
If I can just hitch my bra up while responding. I sympathise with anybody going through personal problems, even though they might have made foolish decisions. In the case of Stones, I don't know what the true story is but Laurel and Hardy (sorry, Dave! sorry Tony!) seem to have their ears to the ground on this one.
Having said that, his defensive cock-ups are nothing new so I guess can't just be put down to his current personal problems.
I wouldn't mind earning their money - not that it would turn any female heads in my direction, not given my age and looks. Mind you, I can stumble as well as Stones.
217 Posted 10/06/2019 at 16:14:16
I think it's true Brent, and another fine mess, might only be half of the tale, for young Johnboy!
218 Posted 10/06/2019 at 16:30:04
219 Posted 10/06/2019 at 16:35:46
I loved Chilavert. On the Championship Manager I would always sign him although the computer version of him as a so-so goalie and not really prone to taking free kicks etc. Nonetheless, he was part of my Everton team that won the league 5 years in a row plus the European Cup. What a team I had: him, Rio Ferdinand, Shkodran Mustafi, Steve Guppy such a realistic simulation of real-life football.
220 Posted 10/06/2019 at 19:17:42
It only takes one guy to fail to understand a point and before you know it others are following over the cliff.
I've scoured the thread and I cant find a single post suggesting Stones drop off in form was down to his personal problems. Reason ? There was no drop off in form. No excuses were needed.
My post was a counter to the claim that after playing him in over 90% of the games, including head to head battles against all the top boys. Guardiola decided ( after their best performance of the season ) that he doesnt trust Stones.
I heard The guy was having personal problems from some very credible sources and thought that was a far more credible reason for Guardiola to leave him out.
A quick scout around social media has confirmed that Stones IS getting stick from a substantial group of fellow professional. Its fact as opposed to the idle gossip you portray it as.
In today's day and age, you don't need to be belong to a players "inner circle" to know whats going on.. . social media tracks the every move. Ally Mc Coist was not muck raking or "gossiping" He was reporting the facts.
Whether people believe Pep dropped Stones because he knew about this issue, or whether they want to buy into the crackpot theory that He suddenly decided he didnt trust him after all those impressive performances is up to the individual. I personally don't care either way.
But to suggest anybody is using Stones's reported personal problems as an excuse/reason for his imaginary drop off in form. is - to use a phrase of yours "Nonsensical gossip".
221 Posted 10/06/2019 at 19:33:18
222 Posted 10/06/2019 at 20:18:53
I have just looked at how many games Stones started for City since the 16th Feb, he only started 3 games for City against Bournemouth, Cardiff and the league game against Spurs that was in between their 2 champions League game with Spurs. He didnt play in any of the Champions League later stages games or the quarter or semi or final of the FA Cup.
Now that isn't a lot of games for your first choice centre back in the crucial time of the season. Also it seems that Pep wants Harry Maguire to partner Laporte for next season.
223 Posted 10/06/2019 at 20:31:49
Rather I think the type of mistake that Stones made is down to his character make-up and poor decision-making. It's not as if the it's the first serious error of that type that he has made, is it? He has previous. I think Pep knows this despite Darren's protestations.
224 Posted 10/06/2019 at 20:54:53
225 Posted 10/06/2019 at 21:39:58
Goodness me, you detractors are getting desperate...
It's long been established that he was left out for most of the last lap of the season. Mysteriously after playing very well against Chelsea when Man City kept a clean sheet? He was left out of the squad completely.
You're right, he did play against Bournemouth (clean sheet), Spurs (clean sheet), and Cardiff (yet another clean sheet) and, as evidenced by the obvious pattern, the "drop off in form" is a simply foolishness, trumped up by those desperate to discredit him.
You are also correct in saying he was left out of the Champions League games against Spurs... remind me, how did that go?
Despite his absence on the last lap of the title race and the games he missed through illness and injury, Stones still played 24 times last season. I find it very sad that because a player has made an error in his first game for 9 weeks, people want to jump all over it and pretend he's been making errors all season. He hasn't. He's been a joy to watch... and he's a Champion.
226 Posted 10/06/2019 at 21:40:04
I'm a big believer in John Stones but calling him "the best centre-half this country has produced in decades" really does show limited objectivity. He's got a long way to go before he gets even with players like Tony Adams, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand.
Sure, he's got a lot of ability on the ball, but his core defensive skills are still significantly short of those three -- and quite a few others from the last 20-plus years.
I hope he proves himself to be worthy of comparison with the best of his generation, but right now he's still largely potential over execution.
227 Posted 10/06/2019 at 22:05:39
However Stones displayed a rather stupid arrogance and, although he is good on the ball, he needs to remember that his game is studied by his peers and obvious "Cryuff turns" will be punished.
The pass to Barkley was unfortunate and the knackered Barkley got his legs mixed-up.
John Stones is a super player and surely will learn from such incidents. Perhaps his fall from grace will bring some more humility to his play.
228 Posted 10/06/2019 at 22:13:43
I didn't try to discredit him, I just pointed out that, since the middle of February, he only started 3 games, 2 of those against teams in the bottom half of the table. So my question is: if he as good as you say, then obviously Guardiola chose to hardly use him at the most important part of the season... why?
Stones is an elegant player and has lots to admire, but he does have shortcomings which you fail to see. Guardiola chose Otamendi and Kompany ahead of Stones for the crucial run-in, and I think I will side with the judgement of possibly the best coach in world football at present.
229 Posted 11/06/2019 at 08:38:10
230 Posted 11/06/2019 at 10:32:56
I would back the judgement of the best coach in football too. If he buys Maguire, a player much derided by some on these pages when it was suggested by ToffeeWeb posters that we should have bought him, I will back him on that also.
Hopefully John Stones will go on to be the best centre-half in Europe. He has a fair way to go to achieve that, in my opinion.
231 Posted 11/06/2019 at 19:16:06
I've done my best to respond to any post directed to me, but how many times do you want me to answer the same question ?
I don't know if you want to browbeat me into accepting the crackpot theory that Pep suddenly decide he didnt trust Stones after selecting him to play at the grounds of ALL the top teams and on the back of five personal clean sheets for the player...Sorry. That wont be happening. it's pure conjecture and invention. You want it to be true because it fits your argument but you really don't know. . Stop pretending you do.
The reports about Stones struggling to handle social media jibes about his new girlfriend coincide with the time Pep started leaving him out. Maybe Pep decided his head was gone and would`nt risk him. Maybe he thinks he`s a complete tart for letting it bother him . . who knows, We none of us have the facts, but it seems infinitely more plausible to me.
I must admit you and JG Davies gave me a genuine laugh out loud moment when you both declared you fully agreed with the judgement of the Guardiola when not playing Stones when City faced mainly lower placed sides in the last 11 games.. . presumably you both thought "the best coach in the world" was making a complete fuck up when selecting him EVERY TIME he was fit in the first three quarters of the season.
One thing is certain, If stones had have made all those errors his detractors on here have claimed he made last season. One of them would have put a few examples up. . They haven't, They wont. They cant.
As for Maguire;
I'd heard nothing of those reports linking him to City so I googled it to find out where the reports originated. . I might have known.
No comment from me on that point
232 Posted 11/06/2019 at 20:29:26
"In my opinion" Stones will reach his potential and "In my opinion" Barkley will flatter to deceive. But they both fucked up. And the best do occasionally. Deal with it.
Give your opinion and then get on with your life. For the sake of all of us (Happy, smiley face emoji).
Lock and load - see you when there's a signing
233 Posted 11/06/2019 at 21:03:11
That's just the errors that ended up in goals. There were dozens more that didn't end up in a goal. If any more detail is required it's quite easy to find.
Nothing personal against John from my part. Where would be the logic in personal attacks against a person I didn't know. I rate him as a player I would have at Everton. Just don't agree with the tags he is given "best defender in Europe" etc. He's not even the best defender at Man City in my opinion.
234 Posted 11/06/2019 at 23:59:34
235 Posted 12/06/2019 at 00:58:50
236 Posted 12/06/2019 at 12:27:25
I think you post settles this argument. Stones clearly has made mistakes that have lead to goals. Pep won't tolerate that which is almost certainly why Stones was left out
237 Posted 12/06/2019 at 18:32:20
On a thread about errors, I've put one in my own net. I was just searching for other players on the website John put up and I realised there was a filter. The seven errors in JS's. stats are based over his entire career. Most of them as with us. If you filter on the years, he actually hasnt made one in the EPL which lead to a goal for three years.
I just thought I would say before somebody jumps down my throat
I'll go back to reading instead of commenting. LOL
239 Posted 12/06/2019 at 20:49:00
I was pretty sure John had made errors resulting in goals while playing for City. Had a spare 5 minutes and checked: https://youtu.be/vaRiH7bMbkI
Play it with no sound Dave. Unfair to a decent player.
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