Stadium Director talks of docks site heritage

https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photos-side-view-lucas-oil-stadium-indianapolis-image23061813

Ah wait a minute, I can hear it now, ' Who gives a Flying Duck'? Well that's what it sounded like.

On a more serious note, it makes you laugh, when you hear about this heritage and UNESCO intervention as if the present site is the Eighth Wonder of the World, let's face it, in reality it more like an eyesore in it's present state.

I'm sure that the Architect can, if needed, incorporate some of the existing in to the new if given a degree of artistic expression.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lucas+oil+stadium&tbm=isch&client=ms-android-motorola&hl=en&ved=2ahUKEwik8tzoseviAhWaBhoKHS3bDUYQgowBegQIARAW&biw=360&bih=512#imgrc=R4A9FcIYGTygsM

Link

What's better, staying within the boundaries to keep heritage status, or creating a magnificent waterfront, creating loads of jobs, and a place full of life, that people might describe as brilliant?

It used to be a world heritage site, but they thought they could do better without it, might be the best decision this city could ever make?

This will do us:
https://www.google.com/search?q=lucas+oil+stadium&client=firefox-b-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=cEYId_y1B4aCAM%253A%252CE6OeR8dygV3KyM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRKKcP0mEA8wG7nTIuKgbiw5NvKUw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN7u6stOviAhWEsHEKHfKnB1cQ9QEwA3oECAQQCg#imgrc=cEYId_y1B4aCAM:

The Council will need satisfying, Italian marble cladding for all four sides won't be cheap!

I don't want a neon blue, steel tin can oval. Uck!

I bet you're a milk stout man and had an eye for Ena Sharples. It's those hair-nets that did it!

Appreciate that. I do truly believe it's down to what the locals want. They have to see the thing every day! Whatever the consensus is from folks in and around Liverpool is fine with me.

I do like the Lucas oil shout. Conservative, nostalgic building with all the bells and whistles.

Just hope the damn thing gets built.

This latest public statement definitely seems to be an olive branch to the historical community.

Pat #41, that's a cracker.

Ed #40, I wonder if there's something about the tight footprint at BMD that makes a square exterior more likely? Or makes no difference?

The link below shows his view of building in sympathy with the environment-Rome known for its heritage, 2000 year old buildings etc- and it looks to me like a futuristic glass bowl. Its supposed to be inspired by the Colosseum and there is similarity in they are both bowl shaped.

I am firmly in the 'Lucas' look alike camp and would hate a bowl however nice.

No oval. Rectangle, please.

Bramley-Moore Dock is rectangular.
Goodison Park is rectangular.
Insert a Scouse witty quip about rectangles.

An oval-shaped stadium doesn't feel like a fit to me.

If it was good enough for Kings Dock it should be more than good enough for a shithole like Bramley-Moore Dock.

This is EFC who's building this stadium, if our recent run of form and the absolute crap we've spent our money on recently is anything to go by, I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with triangular shaped stadium.

And if Bill Kenwright has his say, the players will be running onto the pitch through crushed velvet curtains with the unused props in the background from his poncy Westend shows.

Although I'd like to see a stadium that was 'different' even a bowl shape would be preferable to a semi derelict WHS.

That's a very very good question indeed.

We should have just gone to Dortmund, gave them 50 quid for their stadium designs and built similar. Saved us a fortune and still be fantastic

My understanding is that the pitch is going to run lengthwise parallel to the river. That actually surprised me given that the length of the river boundary is quite a bit shorter than the length of the side boundaries. Because of that, it would seem to me that the most effective use of the space would be to have a stadium design with a rectangular footprint.

Concerning the World Heritage issue, I have been very enthusiastic about the whole stadium project and waterfront development, but if there is one thing that has concerned me it is this:-

I think about the sheer ingenuity of the people who designed the dock system and the prosperity that it brought to Merseyside. But perhaps even more importantly, the manpower that went into digging the the excavation and lining the walls of the actual dock with stone.

So for me the thought of actually filling the dock in with landfill is somewhat “unsettling”. It just doesn't seem right to me to just “fill it in”.

I remain excited about the stadium and the waterfront development and I am sure the club will come up with something the fans will be proud of. I just wish they could have found a way of building the stadium sunken into the dock.

That's a great point.
Some feat achieved by the workforce to build the Docks.
That is the real heritage of the site.

I have to admit that I was surprised that they didn't opt for the opposite orientation too. If the pitch was just 2-6m below the quayside, they could then be preserved and used as a feature. Furthermore, most stadium architects would love the opportunity to build into a recess/crater. Construction costs are often greatly reduced by that reduction in construction volume, height and vertical transport within the stadium, and digging down for the lower tier is often utilised.

Apparently in our case, the whole quayside is going to raised by a metre or so (literally block by block), because it is technically on a flood plain. I'm not sure why they cannot just raise the outer walls, use the surrounding basins as flood defence, and/or insert a cofferdam as belt and braces.

I agree completely. I'm sick of hearing about this bloody stadium now. Chong is the latest in a long line coming out to drip feed us some bullshit. We need less talk of projects, funding, workshops, consultations, key principles of a new stadium etc. We've spent 3 years doing all of this. This should all be done by now, we just need to see some plans and then get on with it.

Why is it that everything Everton do takes so long? We've been talking about a new stadium for 25 years now and we are still at Goodison. Meanwhile, we've fallen further behind every year. Just get the plans out so we can all have a look, give appropriate feedback, and then get it built!

Bramley-Moore Dock is within the World Heritage Site boundaries, not outside, so has to meet world heritage criteria for development.

Maps:
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1150/multiple=1&unique_number=1331

Much as I admire the Emirates and the new Spurs stadiums, the architecture has sod all to do with those local areas. The world heritage site requirements mean our stadium could reflect something of the area, its history and its people. For me, that would be brilliant.

Dan Meis will know this site inside out and will hopefully reflect in his plans.

As said many times previously, EFC must get this design right first time.

The suggested 52k capacity for me is the issue. Let's look forward in hopeful anticipation to next month when the design is revealed.

Dortmund, good shout, I'd be happy if we cloned a smaller version of that monster stadium.

I think we'll end up spending half our money on marble cladding to satisfy the Council and Unesco, most probably end up with something that looks like the Kirby thing on the inside.

Worry about making this thing fit for for purpose and stress less about it's looks.

There's my two penneth.

1) How many times are those involved going to BE involved with THIS club in building a new stadium?
2) How many times are they going to be involved in the building of ANY stadium should they fuck this one up big style?
3) Is Dan Meis, an architect of some repute with previous successes under his belt, going to risk his reputation by building a fucking glorified shed?
4) Is Moshiri, a billionaire, really a complete and utter knobhead who's going to oversee the building of a glorified shed?

We've had setbacks and cock ups and failures galore in the past which is what shapes some of us and shapes our cynical and disbelieving outlooks.
From one who knows, together with my brother from another mother (and father) Mike Gaynes, thinking positive makes the world of difference and believing that good things CAN and DO happen often sees those good things actually happening.
I believe it will happen and I believe when I'm sat in my seat in the equivalent of the top balcony at BMD the shivers that run down my spine, when I hear the first few bars of Z Cars, will feel no different to the shivers I feel at every home game at Goodison, at that same time.
Steel, glass, brick, stone, whatever. The pitch will be green and the blue will be of the Royal variety and I, for one, can't fucking wait!

😁😁😁😁

The lads knew every trick in the book and then some.
Great memories.

Cracker!

That's not a phrase I hear every day here in Brazil!

Gotta be around 40 years since I last heard that said.

Regarding the sewage works, Heritage status was of no concern when North West Water bought the site in the 1980s. It was initially purchased as a site from which sewage would be shipped out for dumping in the Irish Sea, but that was outlawed so a full blown treatment works was built there instead.

As to the proposed orientation of the stadium, I am pleased the long side will follow the river. That should give more or less the same aspect as Goodison, which means, if season tickets are allocated on a like for like basis, my position will remain cold but with no sun in my eyes. People like Dave Abrahams, however, on the opposite side of the stadium, will continue to need peaked caps when the sun is low in the winter months for afternoon kick-offs.

My most abiding memory of the old lady is the chant of "champions"

At a time when red seemingly overpowers I'm minded of that wonderful Goodison chorus "Champions.. champions" - The lost chord.

I sought but I seek it vainly
that one lost chord divine
Which came from the soul of Goodison
and entered into mine

It may be that deaths bright angel
Will sing in that chord again.
It maybe that only in Heav'n
I will hear that grand amen.

It may be that deaths bright angel
will sing in that chord again
It may be that only in Heav'n
I will hear that grand amen

I was going to say something about Arthur Sullivan - truly great man. . . . . but I'll offer some decent advice instead

Give the Waitrose farmhouse cider a wide berth, especially if you intend to get all culture vulture...ish. You will simply end up talking shite

Walton hospital stands where the city workhouse stood in 1900. My grandma was a child in there. Don't see any reference to the workhouse in Walton's architecture though and, when you think about it, rightly so. It was a sad reminder of the deprivations suffered by so many "ordinary" folk, the sort of folk who'd have had to work their asses off at Bramley-Moore to merely try to survive in its so-called "pomp".

Get the stadium, put a plaque up, move on.

I love red brick myself and think it can be incorporated into a new stadium build.
Tell me why it can't or wouldn't work.

There are some who have aspirations for the club to be more ruthless or become a hard blue-nosed corporation in pursuit of their dreams. An acknowledgement of the slave trade as part of our heritage would temper the stadium with a touch of grace and humility.

We will just fill it in, after all the blokes with the picks and shovels and horses and carts only dug out about 450,000 tonnes of dirt.

It shouldn't take too long with the gear we have got these days and there's plenty of people who will pay us to to let us fill it with their stuff.

If it was Kings Dock, I would perhaps view it as part of the Liverpool One area and in keeping with its development, but it's the docks, it's the actual heartbeat of a city during its entire life.

'Heritage' encompasses the port, the ships, the acknowledgement of the past, and a statement of who we are. I would be happy to have a stone fortress because it symbolises defeat for anyone trying to overcome us, but that's me!

I agree with you on the idea of stone and brick being used in the design but this will only be at the corners or either end, I would imagine.

To build a new stadium with a larger footprint than Goodison and to solely use brick or stone would be incredibly expensive. This means surely glass and steel will figure prominently at some point in the design?

Who knows? I don't – I'm just guessing really – but I think whatever is built at Bramley-Moore will be a great addition to the area.

I fully understand peoples respect for the history of the area and think alongside the walls, the Stanley tobacco warehouse regeneration is superb (maybe this is what the stadium's look will tie-in to).

However, there is not much else down there to get emotionally attached to; I think this Development can only bring the Docks back to life and most importantly let us Evertonians and scousers reconnect with the area and breath some life back into it.

Actually Bramley-Moore was a coal dock, the tugs are there now, and nowt to do with the slave trade. It's a shithole of a place and has been since I've been alive.

We intend to build a footy ground on it and whatever the ground looks like can only improve that dock area.

Let's not beat ourselves up in 2019 about the slave trade and it's implications when we're talking about a football stadium.

https://www.liverpoolpicturebook.com/2012/12/streetnamestheslaveryconnection.html?m=1

Mentioning slave trade with building a new ground is stupid and should never have been brought up. The dock was built years after the Liverpool slave trade.

Possibly you should have put your post to Kev.

Our city has a huge heritage – we should mention it all.

If we delved into ANYTHING we could find something or other to cause offence to somebody looking to be offended, and that's the thing lots of people these days look for an excuse to be offended or actually get offended on behalf of others.

It's 2019, Everton want to build a stadium on a site that's been left to rot for a long time, end of story!

COYB!

Enjoying your Buckfast?

The dock may have been left to rot until developers saw the chance to make some money. Let's maximise the heritage angle to make sure the historical legacy is respected and not destroyed by either Everton or Peel Holdings.

I don't know who is offended except perhaps those who don't want to know or want to forget their history. There is no need to beat ourselves up about the past as we come to reckon with it. We could think about how the stadium design could reflect the achievements of the city (as James #105 suggested), those who built the docks, and acknowledge those over whose bodies the wealth of Liverpool was built. This could be a forward-looking, positive and strong statement by our club.

I respect your opinion but I personally don't think it's Everton's responsibility to educate people or pay homage. As I said, and I stick by it, we're building a football stadium — let's concentrate on that.

The Echo Arena doesn't nod to the past or "acknowledge those over whose bodies the wealth of Liverpool was built" and neither do a great number of other recent modern buildings along the docks. Let the museums handle that, it's what they do.

My grandad was a Liverpool docker but I don't expect him to get any recognition or a plaque just because we're building and regenerating near where he worked. It's good to have links with the past but I don't think it should always shape what we do today.

I'm all for heritage and a nod to our past, both on the football front and wider society. I don't think we need to include any reference to the odious slave trade as a means to lend 'a touch of grace and humility' to a new stadium build as Kev proposes @ 94.

Addressing modern age slavery, which I've no doubt abounds in the city (and globally) to this day, might be a more worthy Crusade, Kev.

Why is it the responsibility of EFC to build a stadium that reflects the history of Liverpool? We're a football club and not a museum.

Did Tottenham or Arsenal build stadiums that reflect London's history? They just worried about making a decent experience for their fans and nothing else.

The Location of this stadium is becoming a curse because of unacceptable expectations set by outside powers.

Bramley-Moore Dock, as it is now, is a crap hole, anything we build there will be an improvement.

Let's build what we want, rather than what others want.

The local council acted as a brake on that and others of Levy's more grandiose plans but many in the local community were also less than happy with the results of the consultations with the council that took place. The resulting gentrification around the stadium is (as all over London) driving people out of their homes.

World Heritage requirements mean we can't just build what we want. I see that as an opportunity, not a curse.

I wonder if we will be in a similar situation to Arsenal and Spurs when they were building their new stadiums. Virtually very little money spent in the transfer market while the build was taking place. Even now, it seems Arsenal are running a tight transfer budget despite all the claims that, once the new ground was built, they would be able to compete with anyone in the transfer market.

I think like all Blues we just want the thing built, we have had years and years of false promises regarding a new ground. I think our patience is wearing thin, so this needs to happen asap.

Having said that, the heritage aspect I am supportive of is that of the people of Liverpool in the 1800s.

Anthony #117 you are correct – as it stands now, Bramley-Moore Dock is an eyesore... but it shouldn't be. That is an indictment on the various governments and council bodies that have held power since the demise of the area that began in the 1960s.

If Kevin is saying that we should be respecting the history of the site on which our new stadium is to be built, I agree with him.

As far as the New White Hart Lane is concerned, that is a great stadium but our site is miles better because of where it is. Actually, I can't think of a club that has a better location than our proposed new stadium site. There is an opportunity to create something special.

All we need now is for Dan Meiss to come up with a design that is going to do the site justice and make us proud, and Farhad Moshiri to stump up the money to build it. I think they will.

Brian Williams @ 74 has got it right – it will be fantastic.

Wherever you build a stadium (especially a large one) there will be protests from local residents. Kirby didn't want us either. I'm not sure that local protests in London or Kirby were much to do with the stadiums looks, but more to do with the fact that it's actually there?

In our case at Bramley-Moore Dock, we won't face any real opposition to location, It's only the exterior of the stadium that's presenting a problem.

It's us the fans who will pay (eventually) for all these neo-classical columns and marbling, world heritage site or not the stadium has to be presentable and not much more. If the council and Unesco wants extravagance, let them pay for it!

Every penny that's spent on the outside takes away from the inside; the inside is where the action happens.

The Lucas Oil Stadium to say the least isn't the sexiest stadium out there from the outside, but just look at the inside (where the action happens).

Our budget is finite – we need to spend it where it's essential.

World Heritage Fund

The Lucas Oil Stadium is fantastic and it certainly wouldn't look out of place on our site.

Our new ground is drawing investment to the area down the adjoining docks.
This is the latest of what will be a long list

I concede that a silver and neon look would not be in keeping with its surroundings and that some care does needs to be taken with the look of the structure, but it should not be EFC's responsibilty to produce a 4th Grace.

If every business concern that wants to build at Bramley-Moore has to spend a fortune on tarting the building up, then nothing will ever get built the area will remain under developed.

If it's an unacceptable overhead for other companies then it is for us also.

If Unesco and the Council care so much then they'll find extra for us.

Some very good points in your post.
Planning control will have a say in the aesthetics but it is an area in massive demand since the new ground proposal.
Google the postcode and land for sale to show how much in demand.
The dream would be to see the area from the new ground all the way down to the Princes Dock developed.
Knock on effect for the club can only be positive.

It looks like EFC is the catalyst for this new in-rush of developers.

The council should acknowledge this with some help on the exterior (me thinks!).

I am really looking forward to seeing the designs.

We're struggling to build a stadium and this one is about to be knocked down?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/football/inter-join-ac-milan-in-agreeing-to-knock-down-iconic-san-siro-and-build-new-%c2%a3630m-stadium-next-to-it-by-2022/ar-AADiQTt?li=BBoPWjP&ocid=mailsignout

Maybe they could send it to us in kit form instead of putting in the bin, it would look great at Bramley-Moore!

The San Siro is the pits. That's why it's being demolished!

Then again, I've never been to it and I'm sure they have their reasons for wanting a new one.