The Protégé — Would Mikel Arteta represent gamble or coup for Everton?

I'd be very pleased if he becomes our manager.

With an experienced no.2 this could well work.

City are still fighting for honours and I just can't see City releasing him now.

Regarding what former, past and present players say about Arteta is just a load of crap. We hear this nonsense about everyone. Silva has been an unmitigated disaster but apparently everyone he has worked with speaks in glowing terms about him.

I have no doubt tactically Arteta would be good but for me at present it would be a hell of a risk, though as Lyndon says that applies to everyone.

The main question for me, unlike our present fraud, does he have what it takes to put the so called big name senior pro's in their place.

I don't buy the argument that because silva isn't doing well he is a fraud. Higher profile managers have failed with greater resources and he will no doubt secure future employment. Is he up to the job? Results wouldn't suggest he has got in right, but there have been periods where his results have proved very good, especially in the latter stage of last season.
Who knows, if he had a full squad this term and secured Zouma maybe the picture would be different.
But equally, we should still be doing better even given the mitigating circumstances.
But a fraud? In some way dishonest? I can't see that. An opportunity came his way, he hasn't achieved success. That's not dishonest.
Mosh is to blame for being insistent on getting his choice

However, by accepting no blame for the atrocious teams, formations, substitutions and tactics he and he alone makes he is being dishonest.

We've heard every excuse for the abysmal performances this and last season. If we'd signed Zouma, if VAR hadn't cocked up. if we hadn't had injuries etc etc. His excuses have run out as far as I'm concerned.

Starting Schneiderlin, Sigi and Tosun at home in a 4231 formation against the bottom team that can't score and ship in goals, the total panis against Sheff Utd was, in my opinion, an absolute disgrace.
We got exactly what we deserved now Silva should get his.

That being said, if he really has been anointed as Pep's successor, I'm not sure why he'd want to bolt.

I don't even know if I would want that on Arteta?.

Some of them performances on Saturday were bottom half of the championship saturday. I know Silva has his errors but if I had played like that saturday I would be ashamed to admit it.

Again, not being up to the job is not the same as being a fraud. As a coach he has had success in other leagues and to a degree has managed to put together some decent performances between the 3 clubs he has managed in the PL

What he says after games in public is of no consequence. It's all for tv.

He hasn't been a success, but again without actually having a full first team this term there are some excuses for not being at best. But I agree that he hasn't made the best choices with what he has had available. So, in an elite league with a decent squad he hasn't met the level required. Hardly charlatan or fraudulent

He should be replaced in my opinion. But personally I am not a fan of name calling of hyperbole. Especially when realistically a run of 3 wins and the table would look a lot different

How much are you willing to pay him?

Arteta is one of them, could be a masterstroke - could be disastrous. I'd be more incline to give him a chance if we were appointing in the summer, but with a potential relegation battle on the horizon it would be such a big risk.

Lampard was a risky appointment for a CL chasing club like Chelsea.
I personally didn't think so.
Feel the same about Arteta, you just know he's all about adventurous, exciting football.
He can't do any worse.
I honestly believe Moyes would relegate us. Mikel, on the other hand, will get the place jumping.
It's not as big a risk as it might seem.
The fact that there's no evidence of his managerial abilities is my only concern.
With Lampard we could see some of the exciting comebacks and high scoring games he produced at Derby.
But, that doesn't prevent Arteta being my number one choice.
We need to get him before Arsenal do.

Yes and that is why he is too risky an appointment.

We need something more specific.

I can't be doing with stupid comments about Kenwrights role when nobody knows and hate influences everything said.

I quite like the idea of Arteta, it seems his input at City is more than just putting the cones out like Ferguson is reported to do, and has taken complete charge of training, coaching and, apparently, also one match day team selection and pre-match team talk.
But really, it's anyone but Moyes. "He's got grey hair and we really DO care!!"

I believe you can be appointed as a coach as long as you are studying for your A licence. That piece of ‘knowledge' has come straight from Football Manager so blame that if it's not true.

I think taking on a coach who has never been a head coach before, while we're in such a precarious position to be incredibly risky. He may be a genius, he may not be. But I'd rather back someone who gets the club and has a track record (Eddie Howe). Sorry if that opinion is too feminine for you.

If Silva is sacked, I would prefer to see Arteta get the job. If he does get the job then he should be able to select his own backroom staff. I would expect him to give Cahill a call, but if he doesn't that should be up to him.

I would hope he brings a mentor with him. Moyes brought Jimmy Lumsden in with him when he got the Everton job. Jimmy had no real pedigree but was clearly a mentor to Moyes who could be a sounding board on a daily basis. If Arteta brings in an old Spaniard who used to coach him at Real Sociedad, then great.

My concern is that Guardiola would not be the right man for us right now. And Arteta has been learning off him and so is surely moulded into his way of thinking. What can Arteta do to turn this ship around? No one knows yet.

I would still go for Arteta on the basis that he would unify and lift the fan base. For the first time since Martinez, we would hear the crowd sing the manager's name. There would be lots of goodwill towards Mikel from every Evertonian in the stadium. There wouldn't with Moyes, Benitez, Hughes or any other realistic candidate.

Good to see you put your head above the parapet ;-)

If it's an upcoming or little Managers experience than go for someone like Patrick Viera, He has no connection with Everton so sentiments, but I wouldn't mind going for Biesla or even Phillip Cocu.

Silva OUT!!

However, just because it is a risk does not mean it is not a good one. He's incredibly well thought of and is clearly a very good coach which is a decent start. He knows the club and crucially we know him, which means he would get more patience than most.

Overall if it were a choice between Arteta/Cahill and one of Moyes, Hughes or that ilk then I would go for Mikel.

But I do think at this precarious time a more experienced candidate might be better. I like Chris Wilder, he's done unbelievable work at Sheffield even before this season and if you think they only play 'old school' boring football then i'd suggest you've not watched them enough, they've scored more goals than us this season. I think Howe would be an ok choice but don't see that he's progressed Bournemouth much over the last few years despite investment. Marcelino would be a solid option and easy to get. Danny Cowley could be an interesting choice but probably too soon. Kovac did some great work in the Bundesliga and could be a good fit and Benitez has done good work almost everywhere he has gone if you can stomach the history.

I think my dream candidates would be Adi Hutter, Marco Rose, Marcelo Gallardo, Erik Ten Haag, Julian Nagelsmann. And the ultimate (highly unlikely) long shot is Pochetinno. The likelihood of most of these coaches is dependent on timing and most of them will be unlikely to move mid-season. Most of them will have their sights set higher than us at any rate; you can but try.

Lampard had the benefit of some very good senior pros to help him in his transition and enable him to play younger players. Our senior players, with the exception of Seamus, are the problem. No standards, no pride, terrible mentality, awful performances. Truly a disgrace and this club will not move forward until Sigurddson, Schneiderlin, Walcott and Tosun are sold.

As for your other targets, Pochettino will be on holiday for a good while now. The guy needs to recharge his batteries. He's done the Everton project already at Spurs, will he really want to do it all over again? I expect Real Madrid will have him lined up, Man Utd will also be in contact, and maybe Bayern (but again that's probably too soon). All three will offer double or triple what we can.

Ten Haag is having a great season and will not leave Ajax in the CL knockouts to come to us. Maybe in the summer if Ajax don't advance past the next round. Otherwise, he'll have grander ambitions.

Gallardo is a massive risk. Does he even speak English? He's won stuff with one of the Argentinian big two, what makes you think he can do it with Everton?

Nagelsmaan is only 5 months into the Leipzig job and is in the top 3, but failing to capitalise on a stuttering Bayern. He won't quit them this season, not even if we offered him big wages.

Rose is currently top of the Bundesliga, why would he leave 5 months into his new job? And he won trophies in a one horse race in Austria.

Your man Dutter is an interesting guy, but he's midtable in a poor Bundesliga. I think the Everton fanbase would dismiss his track-record like they did Silva's.

Some even mentioned Kovac, but he's shown himself to be a very limited and basic manager. We should certainly swerve him.

Ancelotti was in the mix for Spurs. He is at war with the board in Italy, and so is certainly a possibility. Personally, I'm not a fan. But with the other fanciful names in the mix, why not consider him as he is more achievable in my eyes.

p.s If we cant tempt Arteta, I would be delighted with Bielsa at the end of the season. That would mean a very important interim appointment, not sure who that should be?

I think Chris Wilder has proved you don't need to spend a fortune, but you need to be a good coach which he clearly is. Maybe he has the experience and know how to come in and change things around, and get results quickly. As his team showed yesterday they keep it simple, he doesnt ask them to play in areas were they arent comfortable. He plays a system that suits the strength of each of his players. His team didnt play 1 up with 10 men behind the ball as newly promoted teams often do when playing a top side.

"January 2014, Knill was made assistant to the new Northampton Town manager Chris Wilder, who had been Knill's assistant at Bury. He then followed Wilder to become his assistant manager at Sheffield United in May 2016". So Wilder was Knill's assistant at Bury but the roles are now reversed. That's really curious (though I could see a reason why).

What's the intelligence on what Knill has done as Wilder's assistant?

As it's nearing noon on Monday in England, I want action from the Board. The single most embarrassing thing is this acceptance, from the very top, of wholly unacceptable performances and position in the table. We're a leaderless organization - no nuts at the top of the pyramid.

At this point, I honestly don't care what route we take, just take a route already! I'll get behind anyone they appoint, sans Moyes or Sparky.

Ten Hag. Arteta. Kovacs. Some Dutch Diamond appointed by Brands. Unsworth. Some lower league potential diamond I'm not aware of. Any of them I'll get behind.

I don't know what the route will be. But I do know my pride is taking a MIGHTY beating, as we sit around and do nothing. The result of our inaction being one to send the message that we're okay with everything that's going on.

It's embarrassing. I've said it before - any other Club would have taken action by now. But the Everton hierarchy sit on their hands and say, "It's okay. Give him another few games."

We are run by seriously cowardly decision makers. Minimally, they should have fired Silva before midnight on Sunday.

Drive on down the road Mikel! Save this sinking ship.

Of Moyes or Howe. I'd prerer Moyes or we could be involved in another messy drawn out negotiation for a manager too similar to Silva. I don't think he would have the immediate impact we need. Moyes would give them all a kick up the backside and would make us more compact. He is a short term option that would be less of a gamble and perhaps could be offered longer. I don't hold grudges.

But its still Arteta for me. Go for it now... there is nothing going for keeping Silva for a single minute longer. He lost most of us last season, he is a lazy manager for me. Tries a couple new things against City and West Ham then reverts back to his norm. Why?

If I was to guess what went wrong, I think he might lack the ability to dominate the players.

I am utterly convinced that Marco Silva does not want to pick Gylfi Sigurdsson. No doubt that Gylfi was or still might be a good player, but he's not of the type (profile) that Silva goes for in a number 10.

My guess here is that the big personalities have persuaded him to play them. How on earth is Sigurdsson getting a game on Saturday? Same with Cenk Tosun. Are they just more forceful personalities and the likes of DCL is more easy going and so they sit out? Kean looks like he'd be a quite lad, especially with his lack of English, so it's easier to drop them?

That performance and team selection on Saturday was not what you expect from a Marco Silva team. So maybe he is weak. You need your manager to be stronger and put the likes of Gylfi in their place.

Arteta/ Cahill is not an obsession.

It certainly isn't ‘naive in the extreme'.

There appear to be a considerable number of TW's in this thread that would go for Arteta.

If as you say, proven experience and a winner, Benitez fits the bill, despite his often used comment, that we are a small club.

Chinese league finishes 1st December, and his family still live on Merseyside, (I'll stand corrected on the date and his family situation).

Zero experience, can he motivate this group, what if we dig ourselves into an even bigger hole can he get us out of it? He's used to dealing with Superstar players who all bow down to Pep not lazy work shy shirkers, can he motivate them, can he tear a strip off them, can he fire them up?

What type of football does he personally want to play will it be a good fit with the crap at his disposal here?

Give Sean Dyche a 3 yr rebuild project, then make a decision on the next man to take us to the next level. We need a man to instil the billy basics back into the squad, such as heart and desire and effort. We ned to learn to walk again, when were too busy trying to run.

Arteta also spent a long time under Moyes, so I'm sure he knows about drilling defences, even if Pep is more concerned with attack.

Stan, he is most certainly available. Pep Guardiola has said, and will no doubt confirm in his next press conference, that he will not stand in Arteta's way. The only issue is whether Arteta is actively being groomed to be Guardiola's successor and it seems more likely that Guardiola will walk when his contract ends in the summer of 2021.

Wife couldn't care less about football as it is so she'll be over the moon.

He's obviously what Paul Tran, goes on about all the time, a good organiser, and a good communicator, and Steve hits on an interesting theme with regards Alan Knill, who is obviously a much better coach, than a manager.

Harvey was a great coach, he helped transform his mate, who then went on to transform Everton, but I'm not sure Colin was a good manager though?

My own dream team would be Arteta as the coach, and little Timmy Cahill, as the manager. You can tell that one of them is very clever, a football man who has been around some of the best clubs, and players, for most of his life, and the other one, the one who wasn't so gifted, has had to work so hard to achieve his dreams?

Cahill has the drive and the tenacity, and Arteta has got the football brain, best mates who met at Everton, and the perfect combination in what most Evertonians look for, when they think about their club. A combination of heart, bravery and desire, and a combination of skill, and speed of thought, but please let Timmy be the boss!

My guess here is that the big personalities have persuaded him to play them.

If that's the case, he should be fired immediately.

A manager who can't name the proper side because big personalities have persuaded him to play them? What??

I've heard some theories, but if there's any shred of truth to any of your thoughts, Marco Silva should get throw to the curbside immediately, and with a degree of force.

We've hired a pussy who can't name the side because of the big personalities persuading him to play them! Good God if it's really that low, we are truly fucked.

You are suggesting that Arteta leave being assistant to possibly the best manager in World football and come here to be assistant to Cahill.

Sigurdsson did what Sigurdsson does. 21 completed passes in 95 minutes. And he's our number 10. Iwobi would have got on the ball more and made something happen, and he does that best in the middle, because I don't think he is a winger.

When the going is tough, I always think about that Beatles classic, “I want to hold your hand” because this is when you need people close to you, but Everton's team have got no combinations, no one next to each other working in pairs, and only a look of resignation when they hear the moans from the crowd

A manager who can come in get us toughened up hard to beat, instil some discipline and pride into the performances. That's why I'd like to see Dyche given a crack at the whip at Goodison.

I'd rather see us going back to rough and tumble football and winning 1-0 and 2-0 than playing open expansive shite that doesn't suit the squad and results in slow boring football with no passion.

Our squad is a major rebuild away from attracting a top tier manager. Get Dyche in.

Finally look at his record since he left NOT some rose tinted view of the years before he went. In the last 3 years of his tenure the majority of blues would have been happy to see him go, the football was crap. Whats his win % since he left ? less than 30% - thats relegation form if nothing else.

If he arrives, I leave, and my seat will be empty for the remainder of the season, and I didn't even do that under fat sam.

Favre would be a brilliant shout for this club. So now based on one article in the Guardian, I will boldly state that I am pro-Favre and campaign for his appointment as manager.

Klopp was still in his 40s when he left Dortmund and had won more in his short career than Favre has in his long one. I'm not convinced Favre is the man who can take us forwards.

I said in my post that alot of those dream options would depend on timing and few would be available now. Or possibly at all. Hence the word dream!

As for Ancelotti its been about 30 years since he managed a mid-table club. Good manager but doesn't feel like the right fit for me. Would he come and could we afford him?

I do quite like Favre as an option. Might prefer someone a bit younger but good manager.

He has an excellent record of bringing through youngsters. For 2-3 years, he could bring back some pride to this club, and put us in a position to attract a long term replacement.

We supporters and that includes me havn't a great record lately of supporting managers when results go pear shaped have we.
We have sacked the present Belgium and Holland managers, Allardyce who would probably be still Englands manager yet but for that sting, a home grown in Unsworth and now possibly Silva.
I'm not disputing that they all have faults but I think we have been too quick to condemn, Goodison has become too toxic too soon.
At this stage if Silva is sacked we definitely don't want an inexperienced or first time manager thats a frying pan into the fire situation.

We are a sinking ship, it's a big ask for Arteta to come in and sort out the current mess. It's also not a gamble a man like Moshiri will take.

The biggest problem is also the board are not "settling" for Moyes, they genuinely want him. That is the level at which we are run as a club. Depressing times.

The fanbase is crippled frustrated and depressed. Fans can't even Unite over the next manager choice in this thread and when it does happen, the first murmurs will be some Brands,/FIFA fan criticising the choice.

perhaps a good starting point, would be: 'Ask Fabian Delph'

I don't know how you come up with the theory that Sigurdsson isn't Marco Silvas type of player, he has practically been an ever present since Silva arrived. You say Iwobi IS a Marco Silva type player yet he has dropped him on a number of occasions or not started him. Your argument doesnt stand up, like you I was a supporter of Marco Silva but its just not working, I also don't think Marcel Brands is blameless in this shambles.

Now if you had used the argument to say Brands hasnt bought the type of player Silva wanted then I believe that is the case. Obviously the signing of young Kean, who might turn out to be a terrific player, but its not what Silva needed right now. I would also suggest he wasnt overly pleased with the signing of Mina as days after he went and got Zouma, who he preffered ahead of Mina when Mina was fit.

I would love to be able to ask Silva why he never played his preferred formation, why we only ever saw glimpses of his trademark fast football, and preferably why he persevered with Sigurdsson.

I maybe alone in this, in fact I know I am alone, but is Poch really out of reach? Hes a task master, expecting exceptional levels of fitness and running. Does that suit Real? Perhaps Bayern. The UTD squad isn't set for that style of play. Arsenal? After managing spurs? He would be up against in from the first day.
He has had 5 great seasons at spurs, but he is hardly in the elite bracket yet. 5 seasons, no trophy. We beat Moyes with that same stick.
If Mosh doesnt at least sound him out it would be a great shame.

Dream on Jim. Dream on.

Your Moshiri who's your pick?

And don't say I'd Stick with Silva. lol

Answer is just as much a Silva, if not more. Favre has won the league and cup in Switzerland (twice). Would say that's less Mickey Mouse than winning the Greek league with Olympiakos (who've won the league about 18 times in the last 20 years). He also won the super cup with Dortmund last year.

I know you're still sticking with Silva (even though it's blatantly obvious his ‘'style' simply does not work in the premiership). But knocking Favre with a ‘but what has he won' is a bit ridiculous imo.

At some point you're going to have to admit to yourself that Silva (in England anyway) is a crap manager. Another snake oil salesman ala Martinez with a sharp suit and fat watch and nothing else.

I wouldn't be hiring someone because they say they will have Everton in the Champions League in 3 years or if they say I need to sign v w x y & z in my first year and then a b & c in my second and we'll then have a good team.

I would want to hear that they will work with what we have and maybe make two crucial signings, a midfield general and a striker, keep a settled team to get them used to a system and form great understanding with the players around them.

Kenwright has sung the praises of past managers because they sounded good. But there was little substance.

Silva is the one who is responsible for team selection, tactics and game management and he is failing. Yes some of the players are letting him down but he still plays them the following games, and of course he is going to say he is the one to change it around. What is the saying (a leopard cant change its spots).

The choice of Arteta is certainly a risky prospect as he has not managed a club before.He may have worked under a couple of world class managers for experience, but being an understudy to a world class manager plus some of the best players in the world, it is a big leap to go from that environment to a struggling club for his first managerial position that may make or break him.

The other negative I believe is when managers are hired from other clubs they usually bring their own coaching staff,and as Arteta does not have a coaching staff he will have to use Everton staff.

The person who overall for this mess is Moshiri, as he was the one who wanted Silva, and I think he is reluctant to admit he made a mistake.

Denis, Favre is 62, not a 41 year old. Silva was appointed in the hope he would get better and better and take us somewhere. Favre has been around a long time. Just because he won the league in Austria with RB Salzberg, what makes you think he will take us up the league to where we should be?

I would only point out that Arteta's previous Everton association would mean little to Moshiri and Brands. If they chose him, it would be on merit alone.

Moyes. - best short term option, did a good job filling in at West Ham. Got Arnautovic playing like a top striker which hopefully he could do with one or two of our forwards and he would get some fight out of the players.

But as for he'd be a gamble, everyone and everything's a gamble, and this can't go on

I mean, how many times have we watched him out-strategize our supposedly superior manager, equipped with better players now? I think he'd be a significant upgrade and think he'd rise to the challenge of managing ostensibly better players; he's managed up through the divisions so can handle all types. I think he'd be a good fit for a bigger team one day, so why not us? He's taken Bournemouth as far as they can go, given their size and is probably overdue a step up.

Very odd reference imo - age is utterly irrelevant as whoever we get very likely won't be around for more than 3-4 years max As it is. Just look at the average management posting in the league. Most of the leagues' managers have been in situ for less than 2 years.

I'm not looking for another Moyes. Just anyone half decent for 2-3 years to get the club back on its feet. One step at a time.

You going to refuse Nagelsmann cos he's a baby at 32? Or does than make him and even better prospect as he's even younger?

Boring

It's all been very depressing for Blues fans for a very long time. Arsene and Arteta may stop the football world at large laughing their manky heads off at our antics and give the club back the respect that has overall been lost for this once great club.

Of course Wenger may go sacre bleu at the notion of it but he does seem to want another job in football. But at the elite level of Bayern Munich it seems. But if it's a real challenge he wants then this is the place for him.

I was thinking this last night. Our Icelandic "playmaker" isn't one who fits the Silva style. He, like Schneiderlin, doesn't fit the remit or "philosophy".

Both slow the game down through the spine. I thought last season that Sigurdsson was only being constantly played because he did put on some splendid individual moments and was the only viable option as the 10.

I thought it was telling when he got dropped this season, we looked to have more balance and he came on to revel in a virtuoso performance from the bench.

I agree with you yet given he wasn't signed under the Silva and Brands regime, I don't understand why we have persisted with him so much. I too would love to ask Silva that question and why he brings back another player - who he didn't bring in - Schneiderlin to be crowbarred into a team at a level he isn't good enough for.

If Silva loses his job through loyalty or bottling it to certain senior players, more fool him.

1) Yes, absolutely, everyone's a risk but Arteta's upside is tremendous so he's a great option
2) "He has no managerial experience" (this is literally the only objection I've read so far on a multitude of sites)

Is there anything else that's deviated from this?

I'm firmly in the #1 camp, and have been, because as Lyndon said, there isn't a single manager that doesn't come with risk. Regarding risk, I believe that depends on how you define the word in this instance. If 'risk' to you is risk of being relegated, I think that's unrealistic and pretty much unfounded. Happy to elaborate should anyone care. I don't know what else might define risk here.

As far as 'no managerial experience,' factually that is correct. But I'd like to ask anyone in this camp to please name a manager that began with experience. AFAIK, everyone has to start somewhere. Why can't Everton finally be a Club who gives a high-upside manager that start? The reasons I support Arteta:

Pros:
* former Blue, well-liked by a majority of supporters past & present (this alone is different from the previous 4 managers)
* the above would almost guarantee uniting the fans and create a "same page" feeling that's been missing for too long
* would be connected to the Club, the supporters, and the community, and never hide or stonewall this imperative component
* as a footballer, he primarily played midfield; IMO such a position gives someone the vision that comes with it - offensive, defensive, strong sense of in-game/on-field experience if you will
* speaks multiple languages and would presumably have a much better 2-way communication with our global roster
* extremely familiar with both English football and specifically the EPL (including all current Premiership teams)
* would be incredibly driven to prove himself and launch his career for EFC
* and of course, has been understudy to the single greatest manager in the football world, which (IMO) means: he's seen how Pep runs training & drills, how Pep inspires & builds "will run through walls for him" bonds, has absorbed different tactics & strategies for a multitude of opponent and/or game scenarios, has sat in on every meeting pre-, mid-, and post-game to discuss what went right/wrong and adjust, has tactically seen approach go from whiteboard-to-pitch, has observed what effective in-game management & substitutions should look like, and lastly, understands that success begets success; that "winning attitude"
* could succeed

Cons:
* no managerial experience
* could fail

Maybes:
* willingness to blood in youth (I have no idea)
* opinion of value of Academy players (kind of the same, but I have no idea)

Its nearly 25 years since we had we won anything co-incidentally we were managed by an ex player.

Since then we have tried every shape and size, Walter Mitty, The dour Scot, The Phenomenal Spaniard. The straight talking Dutchman, The English coward. The Portuguese prattler. . We've tried them all and we have not won a fucking Banny mug. We havent even been close.
We havent qualified for the CL. We are, by some distance, the richest failures in the EPL. Whats it gonna take for the penny to drop with some people ?. . . Its not just poor results. We've been last on MOTD for fifteen years because our football has been pug ugly. THERE WAS NO EX EVERTON PLAYER SQUANDERING FORTUNES TO PRODUCE SHITE.

I`m not saying there isnt an obsession, but the one I see is a very different one and yes its seriously unhealthy. Its almost as if being a blue is a sin. Something to hold against a man.

The last time we won something we were led by a blue and the time before that and the time before that.. Its not about "getting Everton". Thats what they dont understand. Its actually about giving a shit about Everton. If the "NO-EX-BLUES" crew get their way we will be paying of another half baked foreign poster boy before the end of next season.

Let bring in somebody who gives a shit ! I`d sooner take a chance on Arteta than another mercenary gobshite who only sees this club as a monster pay day

His comments after the Norwich game were correct. We played without tempo and our players were too static. However, that was his fault for playing Gylfi and Cenk Tosun. He denied the team mobility by selecting less mobile players and leaving Iwobi and DCL on the bench.

He has to take the sole blame for Saturday because he well and truly was the author of his own downfall in that game.

No aggression, no desire to change tactics is what everyone has cried about for weeks. How anyone can moan about Silva but want Eddie Howe is beyond a joke.

Imagine this lot serving up what Bournemouth have served up for 5 years.

I think Darren Hind is spot on about the former player as manager situation too. There is far more evidence to say a former player does better than a new man with no affiliation.

I'll support whomever comes in, but Miki will do for me.

Won't even need a new song!

He may believe Brands is better to work with. Recruitment is not an area he will have an experience of. Guardiola will have shown him how to do the job without being involved in recruitment and so I think he will work better with Brands.

You miss the point entirely. Its not about coaching ability alone. Its about actually caring, not just being here for the pay day. Matinez was too busy moonlighting during the world cup for TV, to organise a pre season.

You couldnt get Koeman off the Golf course long enough to know his best team.

The Knight King was too busy talking to Talk Sport every day.

At no stage do I say being an ex blue makes you more qualified to coach our side. What I did do was put up several examples as to why it shouldnt be a reason to count them out.

This anti blue feeling increasingly expressed by people who have no idea what what ex players do is just pie in the sky drivel

For starters, it was a mutual decision. Kovac knew he had lost the dressing room, and resigned (Google it). He left on amicable terms. The core reason was over a disorganized defense that was bleeding goals (overshadowed by their wickedly potent offense), and the respected voice of their more senior players (Lewandowski, Muller, Neuer).

I gave you 3 reasons that disprove the belief that they're stuttering. 7-3-2 just isn't stuttering, or even mildly faltering. They're 3 weeks off demolishing Borussia 4-0 in Der Klassiker. The problem wasn't Bayern, it was Kovac (somewhere in one of these threads I cited some of this as reasons why I wouldn't want him at Everton). Oh and not sure if you knew, but I'm a big Bayern supporter and have watched 100% of their matches (all televised comps) for 3+ years now.

I'm happy to make an exception with Cahill. He has a winner's mentality that has to be at this club and made the best of his talent. The kind of man I'd want on my side regardless of who he played for.

I'm happy to make an exception with Arteta. Skilful player with more than a hint of devil when it suited him. Articulate guy who looked a good coach of the future while a player. Working with the best in the business. Top players praising specific work of his. Again, the kind of man I'd want on my side regardless of who he played for.

Catterick, Kendall & Royle were more than ex-Everton players, they were great, great and very good managers.

Let's face it, it's going to be Arteta & Cahill, Howe, Dyche or another laptop-cuddling mutterer from overseas.

All a risk. I know who I'd choose, regardless of who they played for. They just happen to be ex-Everton players.

So as a supporter of Bayern, is Kovac good enough for us? And what about Ancelotti, are you (like me) also of the opinion that he is overrated?

Paul which laptop-cuddler have we employed so far? I know two Everton managers who were stats obsessed and had a big computer analysis department, and it won't be the two you will name.

Funny how a guy could be so popular at Frankfurt and such a wreck at Bayern. Must have been way too much of a step up in class.

Did we not do the same when we appointed Colin Harvey when we promoted him from assistant, and look at the players he had.

We need to get this one right, so for now a no from me.

I don't think the is an "it's got to be a blue" crowd. The guy I've been advocating for over four years (Howe) didnt play for Everton.

I think there is very definitely an it-cant-be-a-blue movement.
I see it on here every day. People calling for the removal of junior coaches because they once played for us.

There is a regular poster on here who found out what an albatross kenwright is around the clubs neck about five years after the rest of us. Like a teenager who thinks he has invented sex. He comes on almost daily to tell us what we knew years ago. Trouble is, he tries to tar every ex player with the same brush. . You need to know what you are talking about to do that and he doesnt.

As I understand it, you need a UEFA Pro license to manage full-time in the Prem. You need a UEFA A license to be an interim or assistant manager. Cahill came to Finch Farm this fall to work on his A license, which supposedly takes two years to get.

If I'm wrong on any of this, somebody please correct me, but to the best of my knowledge we couldn't hire him even if we wanted to.

Eddie #129, I've wondered the same thing.

I can't remember the fellow TWer who has brought him up a few times, but Leipzig's Nagelsmann would be incredible to land. But given their meteoric rise the past several years, I'm not sure a step sideways (or worse, down) is what he's looking for in his career. But the allure of the EPL is strong, so dare to dream?

Ancelotti...honestly I don't know. Despite 50% of the birth certificates in my family tree noting Naples as place of birth, I know nothing about him lol. I have watched some Napoli over the past couple years, but they seemed to have run out of gas this year.

Both you & Mike G; if Favre from Dortmund is to be sacked as has been rumored, he'd be an excellent choice IMO as well. You want to talk a front foot approach? He's your man. They don't play much defense though haha.

When Moyes came into Everton and was faced with a similar problem, ie Ginola, Gascoigne, Blomqvist, and Ferguson, he was able to bounce the first three out the door and get something out of the latter.

Silva would no doubt love for us to bounce the badly performing big earners out the door, but on the wages they are on, there is no takers.

The next manager will have the exact same problem, only this time he will have some of Silva's players to bounce out as well. Therefore, it is essential that Brands finds a manager who is what Silva should have been and so has the players he needs already.

Mark, the point about Ancelotti is the criticism he got from his players at Bayern. After he left, they said how they had to put on extra sessions in the park to be as fit as they wanted to be, and were trying to do the things Guardiola had them doing. The Germans were pretty scathing about the Italian's methods.

Don't get me wrong, I think Ancelotti is an excellent manager for Chelsea, Real, Juve, or some other top club. He can handle the egos and ensure you win the trophies. He is great at tactics and is calm in game and will win you games.

Everton need a coach to work with younger players and to make them better. It's a long term project and requires hard work and good coaching to drag us up the table. Ancelotti does not fit that profile.

Avoid, avoid avoid. We need someone with a few calluses and some dirt under their nails. But not Fat Sam again.

We'd be a hell of a lot more fun to watch under Favre, but he would also give our fan base mass heart attacks. I think not.

I hadn't yet started watching Bayern when Ancelotti was there, so I couldn't really say, but your comment doesn't surprise me. I don't really know why Italian managers seem to struggle more often than not outside of Italy. tbf though, Bundesliga & Serie A are light years apart in terms of general style.

edit: oh! And Steve, don't be so sure re: player wages. Bayern makes up for smaller transfer fees with insane weekly wages. They're more interested in KEEPING the players they target to buy.

Mike G @138, I watched that game (I watch all Dortmund matches, along w/ Bayern & Leipzig), and believe me, I was rooting for Paderborn lol.

They do not care as much.

Their salary is not at stake. They know they will get paid for the duration of their contract no matter how badly they may fail - Koeman, Martinez and Allardyce all insisted on collecting their pound of flesh despite failing miserably.

No body should be ruled out because he as played for this club in the past. If that attitude had prevailed in the sixties, eighties and Nineties, we'd have won four less titles, three less FA cups and one less ECWC and been to a lot fewer finals

The trophy haul we have netted with ex players in charge verses the big fat zilch we have won with non blues in charge would support that view

"We need to take a risk, but it's too risky to take a risk right now, so we need a safe pair of hands so that we can take a risk at the end of the season."

Arteta would be both a coup and a risk.

Any managerial appointment is a risk. We should pursue the risk with what we guess is a high potential reward.

It should be less a question of which particular individual people want as manager, and more about having a robust, considered, clear process and strategy for hiring. That Brands, Moshiri, BK, whoever the decision making committee is, are united on what they want to see in a new manager and what they want the club to achieve.

And we can do all of those things right, and it can still not work. That, honestly, appears to have been the case with Silva.

If we hire a "safe pair of hands" it's a) not actually safe, and b) prioritizing short-term mediocrity over long-term potential. We're also not in the position to go out and hire some world-renowned name with a vast record of success behind them.

So our best option seems to be to bet on potential; whether that potential be the murmurings of real talent in someone completely untested (Arteta model), or providing an opportunity to someone succeeding at a "smaller" club who might take things further with our squad (Howe model).

Robin, I think Moyes would be a risk. I don't see him having an impact on the likes of Richarlison. Imagine him trying to explain defensive duties. He's more likely to get Big Vic out of early retirement to show Kean how it's done and bring Baines back and push Digne into left midfield.

He has to be the best-qualified untried coach out there; his history with the Blues is just coincidental.

Mike #132 Fine. Make Cahill a consultant. Call him what you like. That mindset of his needs to be used. It's worth more than a thousand badges.

1. He might be persuaded to take the job, which most managers would do well to swerve.

2. The fans would back him in a different way to they would if he was say, Thierry Henry (but with no managerial experience). He will have unconditional goodwill and support for the foreseeable. He would get patience other managers would have to earn.

Where is the evidence from that history of him being able to galvanise a club that now has way less spendability than in recent seasons, with a still bloated squad comprising way too many can't-be-arsed players, and innumerable Chairman's faves all still employed all the way through the club regardless of results season after season etc etc etc?

I think we should remember that three coaches made Arteta who he is. Guardiola of course (although he never played for him), Wenger, and Moyes. Imagine if Arteta was able to combine the best of those three?

Arteta was at Everton for 6 years, all under Moyes. Do we really think he didn't learn the art of defending or he's forgot it all? It'll be there. Whether he can adapt Guardiola's coaching to include some of the Moyes stuff is the question.

How good he will be no one knows. But with no ideal candidate out there, why not gamble?

The way you phrase the situation in your second paragraph, Jesus Christ couldn't save us from relegation, and he's in the saving business.

We have a Club that has more than supported its manager. We have a Club that has talented players. We have a Club that has some very talented youngsters. We have a Club that a manager with footballing nous, and half a brain, could easily rocket up the table.

Whether Mikel Arteta is that man or not, we may or may never know.

But I know someone can turn this ship around. And if we decide it's time for Mikel Arteta to step up to the Big Leagues now, I think he can. He can't do any worse than the fella who's miraculously still employed as manager of EFC.

How long does he persevere with Mina? He cost us a goal at S/H with a really poor free header.

Only a top-class save from Pickford got him out of the shit when he was left for dead after being caught in a coma on Saturday and two piss-weak tackles let directly to Norwich scoring both their goals.

Keep expecting him to get better but it's not happening.

But since he has...Mina was maybe the 3rd-most person at fault in that debacle. Holgate fucked up not once, but twice (originating misplayed header directly to Pukki's feet; then botching the first tackle attempt forcing Mina to be drawn in and out of position), but the most egregiously disgusting aspect of the play was Schneiderlin eating popcorn while Cantwell - the man he was supposed to be marking - ran by him like the ice cream man truck was camped out in the penalty area.

Anyway, c'mon Arteta!

October 2017 Should Everton relieve Ronald Koeman of his managerial duties in the wake of the poor start to the season?

No 23%
Yes 77%

May 2016 Who would be your preferred choice to succeed Roberto Martinez?

Rafael Benitez 4%
Marcelo Bielsa 3%
Frank de Boer 25%
Philip Cocu 1%
Unai Emery 5%
Lucien Favre 1%
Ronald Koeman 18%
Joachim Low 4%
Jose Mourinho 31%
Manuel Pellegrini 8%

Seeing as the current poll has Silva out at 88%, a far worse position than the end of Koeman's tenure. It's also amusing to see a few names linked to the job this time around.

November 2017 Would Sam Allardyce be the right appointment as Everton manager to replace Ronald Koeman?

Yes 20%
No 80%

By your logic we should discard anyone older than 60 because ‘they can't get any better'. Firstly that is one of the most idiotic comments I've read here as it implies that people over 60 are unable to learn anything new or improve.

Secondly, following your logic, care to explain how Ranieri won the league - at age 65? That was his first major trophy in a managerial career btw, spanning around 30 years.

You make a very compelling case for Arteta and he would be on my list too along with Ancelotti, Ten Hag and Pochetino.

Think big,dream big and act big!!

The last three goals we have conceded were all Mina mistakes. Only a brilliant save from Pickford stopped it being four. His defending at corners has been abysmal all season. Silva may like his "Lighthouses" but they will cost him his job

Lucien Favre has a long body of work and there's nothing in his 26 year career to suggest he's suddenly going to improve to the extent he would need to in order to bring success to Everton.

Ten Hag keeps a relatively low profile in these discussions. Probably because we'll never get him.

But if we were going to splash silly money on Rafa, I'd far, far prefer it were spent on a manager like Ten Hag.

If Erik Ten Hag came to Everton, I think our problems would be over, and the future would be blindingly bright. I've done a lot of reading about the guy the last few weeks, and I've been really impressed. He'd be my number one choice.

But I think his next move will be to a larger club. Painful, but true.

If you Google this:
Link
there's a few stories out there a month or so ago saying we were looking into him. Hold to hope.

He's a former player but if he doesn't get the desired results the bear pit that Goodison has become will turn against him soon enough.
I am against offering him the job, but I have to concede that there are very few other alternatives who I would feel happy with.
Benitez would probably be the safest pair of hands but its long odds he would now come to Goodison.

As usual the club has found itself in a mini / major crisis -take your pick, which you have to put down to incompetance with a small amount of bad luck thrown in.
Problem is I have little confidence that the decision making will get any better!

Pie in the sky.

James @168, did he? Do you have a link to a story or something? Last thing I read was simply an article in the Echo talking about how Pep said that he's absolutely ready to take on a manager role.

He went back to his early form of last season imo, got lost, got bullied, but defenders need their mates, and Mason and Mina, were so far away from each other at times that it was ridiculous.

I've wanted Holgate in the team, but honestly don't think we can find a pairing between the three of them at present, and the fact that Silva hasn't tried to play the three of them, preferring Schneiderlin to cover them instead, is one of a number of things I can't understand about Marco Silva.

I will be accused of that old chestnut-again off some, but I'm only looking at the squad and trying to get the best out of them, and anyone who watches Everton, can't tell me that our fullbacks, don't push up like wing-backs at times anyway?

This system would also enable us to play two upfront, and its also patently obvious that we don't have a player who can really excel playing as an isolated striker?

I've said it before the switch of play looks pretty, but it never really results in an attack for us, and unless the ball goes forward and into the box, all's it's doing is leaving our “one striker” 50 yards from the fucking ball, in fact, ARE YOU STILL FUCKING HERE SILVA?

Drew O Neal- best point I've ever heard on Tweb. Our players will find out what a Legend of ours sounds like and see what you need to be one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUMhRYf3lyA

All you need to do is pause it at 0:02 and it's pretty clear that it's Holgate heading it, setting off the chain reaction. Mistake #1.

For me it's got to be a proven winner but that door may not open.

As long as we don't go for Hughes or Ginger Gollum, both of whom are in football terms, relics of by gone times.

It's going to be interesting times. I can't see this team causing an upset at Leicester and that could be the curtain on Marco Silvas time at Everton.

The spirit and spark, barely lit at the start of the season and the pilot light has failed in all games.

Time for a change, but how ambitious is the Everton board?

One observation I did make from behind the sofa, that another player Sidibe, who also had shown such promise in previous games was often found totally out of position when it came to his defensive role, and so slow to get back after an another unproductive forward foray.

Getting back to the Arteta possibility, now I appreciate there is a gamble involved, but no more than any other Manager for that matter, but I feel it is one that would be worth risking, with Cahill possibly being recruited on completion of his badges.

Or am I just that desperate like most of us are to see the back of Silva? Would Arteta come? Please let us hope so, I am getting filled with expectation at the very thought of it.

Maybe I am making hopeful connections, reminiscent of the Kendall Mk1/Harvey successful blueprint!

On a serious note, of all the realistic candidates being mentioned, Arteta would be my choice. I just hope the silence out of the club over the last 48 hours means that Silva's days are numbered.

If Arteta can't be delivered before the weekend, i'd settle for Unsworth on a temporary basis.

Any manager would struggle after losing their entire first choice midfield to injury. But it is reasonable to expect better than what Silva is achieving even with a depleted squad. A change in formation to account for not having the resources to play the way you want.
These players have been part of the team that strung together a great run at the end of last season during which they convincingly put in displays against teams at both ends of the table. At the beginning of the season most fans were excited about a top 6 push, because on paper it's a good squad. But once you take out Gomes, Delph, Gbamin and Bernard it looks a lot weaker

Maybe Arteta could be the one? But how can we judge him? He has worked for the best coach in the world with some of the best players who n the world for 3 and a half years. He maybe an ex player who “understands “ the club, but he also kissed the Arsenal badge after scoring against us!

There are not many viable options out there otherwise. I don't think Benitez would want to work under a DOF, the past two Ajax managers to try their luck haven't done so well.
With no one obvious standing out I reckon they will stick with Silva a while longer, but with a bit of a rocket up his arse. Maybe he needs to being in a new assistant

I am telling you now, Davies aside - and possibly Delph - there is not one person with the passion, resilience or flat out desire to keep Everton in this division.

15 points after 19 games would, to my knowledge, be Everton's worst first half to a PL season. Irredeemable, surely, when we consider that they had more on the board at the same point in 1997/98.

The club's long top-flight history is irrelevant. Do you really think one single person in the city is going to care that Everton spend 130+ years in the top flight, when Liverpool are ruling the world - on the pitch, on the telly and in the corporate world?

The key now is to forget a star name. Pochettino can't save this situation, and Moyes is yesterday's man.

There are now only three options, if the club wants a manager to stay loyal even after the drop next May. They are Howe, Benitez and Arteta.

Take your pick, but there is nobody else other than those who would stay after May.

If that's the only three we can get, and I'm not convinced it is but I'll go with it, put me down for Arteta.

A bang average manager, a fat Spanish waiter who's insulted the club, or someone who's learned under two of the best, knows the club, and the up side is large.

Roll the dice and go with Arteta when given the choice of those three.

Add a couple of lads out of Gwladys Street End for that list because they would do a better job than Silva.

I would also add Ancelotti to any list and hopefully he will bring Koulibaly with him,

Mina made to powder puff challenges for BOTH goals. Why he deserted his post to charge out for that half arsed challenge for the second goal is beyond me. Not only did he leave the center wide open. he made it difficult for Holgate (facing his own goal). He was the one facing the oppositon goal and if you have played the game you will know it is HIS responsibility to clear it. He screams. He puts his name on it.
I've watched it with three different commentators now and all three praise the Norwich guy for his header. Yet we've got one guy blaming Holgate for "mssing the challenge on the wing" and another saying he was the one who headed it. Mina's apologists can even agree with each other.

I know he has an exotic sounding name (often enough for some on here) but the big South American is the one common denominator in a central defence which has stunk grounds out up and down the country.

The alarm bells rang for me when he was left for dead when caught day dreaming in the first half - again.

If he isn't misjudging the flight of the ball he is standing staring at it, Unless he is in a a show-of-strength tussle his tackling he is piss weak (two more glaring examples on Saturday) When he gets free headers, He heads it with his ear (Southampton being a perfect example)..He is racking up the clangers and we are plummeting down the league.
But hey, He shakes his fists at the crowd. Lets keep turning a blind eye and blaming everyone else.. . oh and he once scored against the mighty England.

That 5 a side challenge he tried with his trailing leg thrown out behind him was horrendous viewing for a premiership defender.

The worst one in recent weeks from Holgate was the recent defending that cost us a goal when he showed an opposition player onto his stronger foot on the edge of the box, which resulted in a free shot and goal.

The lad has got a mistake a game in him unfortunately.

Mina was appalling and quite literally turns his back for one goal. . but hey lets blame Holgate. He did/didnt win a header that led up to the goal.

Rather than try to deflect the blame onto the guy who came through the ranks (as per usual) I want somebody to come on here and say categorically. that if Mina had done his job we would still have conceded the last three goals.
I want those in denial to come on and tell everyone he was not at fault for any of those goals. . lets see if any of the Mina apologists are prepared to make that claim.

Andrew

I have nothing against Mina personally. What I object to is this constant denial when he fucks uo. It is ALWAYS someone elses fault.

Jonny Evans might probably be the most reliable centre back going (and let's hope this solidity helps Leicester win the League), and I agree, we should get rid of Mina, but also Holgate too, in fact all our central defenders need replacing with players more of the profile of Evans.
As for right now, Mina has to play because who else is going to?

Sigurdsson kept trying, but he was dreadful, and I thought that maybe the halftime booing affected Holgate, because he was okay in the first half, but his game totally went in the second half.

Who'd be a defender in this set up though? The gap between Holgate and Mina, for the first Norwich goal, would not be accepted on a Sunday morning imo, so I'd give everyone connected equal blame, whilst questioning the professionalism of everyone sitting in the dugout, because who could genuinely put their name to such amateurism?

I don't think we should get rid of him either. We are asked to be patient with Mina (even though he has played all season... but we should get rid of Holgate after his first few games back as centre-half because people think he has had a poor half?

We are not in the position to allow young potential like Holgate to leave, just as we are not in the position to accommodate Mina's errors.

You are most definitely right about the overall standard of defending, everywhere. It used to be considered an art.

I used to enjoy playing against the Yorkshire sides when I played because they reminded me of scousers the way they could really dig in, and this is what Wilder definitely seems to have instilled into Sheff Utd at the moment.

Football is like life, it's easy when it's easy, but when it's not you need to stand up for yourself and keep battling away, and this is why I left Goodison feeling absolutely numb on Saturday night, because No fight = No chance, and this is what's worrying me the most.

Holgate has been doing a lot better but his concentration definitely went on Saturday, and once this goes especially in a team without any leaders, then it usually goes from bad to worse, and this was unfortunately the case on Saturday.

It looks like Silva is going nowhere just yet, and with the next couple of fixtures including Anfield then I'm very worried because I've never seen his team ever really dig-in

When you need new players...start with local Scouse lads then work outwards.

Alex Neil for me first and foremost,then recall all our loan players as fast as possible.

Sorted...sadly Kenwright will only leave Goodison in a box (wooden type).

For all the money that Moshiri seems to have wasted, not just hiring and firing two permanent, one caretaker and one potentially in the next week or so, just go and get the best available out there.

He has spent close to half a billion pounds on this squad, which some have been grossly overpaid for, but none-the-less should be good enough to challenge for a European place.

Will Allegri work for £70K a week. No. Closer to £200 - £250K that he was on at Juventus but there is no compensation to pay for him or his backroom team.

Lets go with £250K x 52 weeks x 3.5 years works out to just over £45M. Less than we paid for Siggi and in my opinion would be better value for money.

52, learnt English, tactically astute, varies formations and adapts during games.

Time for the ambition of the owner & board to go and sell a proper (I hate the term but) project to a serial winner.

When you say "technically" we got Holgate as a teenager, you really mean "factually", don't you?

I too know Barnsley. They invited my eldest over a few times before passing him over. They are not a Premier lleague team and anyone who signs professionally is one injury away from being thrown in.

Holgate was in the first team almost before the ink was dry. My factual point about him coming through the Everton ranks still stands – sorry won't be backing down on that.

I remember one of his first games was against a Liverpool junior team. Me and a few others were streaming the game and were buzzing about his composure and natural footballing ability on the old live forum.

I spoke only of him as a professional, not a school child, but when I was looking for his age a couple of weeks back, I too read on Wikki (just as you have done today) that he had been with Barnsley since he was 9.

I believe you're conflating me also assigning blame to Holgate (and Schneiderlin, who somehow has escaped your wrath) as me saying Mina was blameless. That's not what I said, or meant, at worst. However, in the same way you're criticizing others for "giving a Mina a pass" or whatever, you're doing the same thing by shining a spotlight on Mina as if he was the only guy on the field.

As for the 2nd goal, maybe you missed Sigurdsson's letter-perfect assist on that play?

You win, ok. You win.
But, you are wrong about something.
I'm just not going to tell you what that something is, so you can't respond to it.

If the unthinkable did happen, he won the Championship first time of asking; we ain't too big to go down. Moshiri, and Kenwright will be to blame if we do.

What is the board doing making big football decisions? Rafa can win the Championship first time. I hope he doesn't need to.

January window says he gets a No 9 with goals in him. Clean sheets and we stay up.

Arteta in the Championship... Howe... Moyes – we'd be there for ever. A foreign manager who doesn't even know the Championship... Plan for the worst in our position and hope for the best. Get Rafa in now, whatever it costs.

No track record, saloon run at the best club in the country, no stated vision, nothing to suggest he has the winning mentality we need.

Face it, no-one would be talking about him if he hadn't played for the club. He's just another one of the shiny bright young things Farhad Moshiri does so love to collect and toss aside when he realises he has brought dross thinking it was brass.