The Protégé – Would Mikel Arteta represent gamble or coup for Everton?

He has been lauded by Manchester City's players for his role in their success, Pep Guardiola feels he already has the tools to become a top manager and Arsenal are reportedly considering him again should they sack Unai Emery but would Mikel Arteta represent too big a gamble for Farhad Moshiri as Marco Silva's replacement at Everton?

Lyndon Lloyd 25/11/2019 220comments  |  Jump to last

It’s quite possible that Mikel Arteta could be fielding calls from both of his former clubs in the Premier League this week as both Everton and Arsenal are believed to be considering the future of their respective managers.

Unai Emery, at one time mooted as a potential replacement for Ronald Koeman at Goodison Park before his success with Sevilla persuaded the Gunners hierarchy to hire him, is facing calls from Arsenal fans for his ouster while a significant majority of Evertonians believe that Marco Silva’s tenure has already run its course.

Arsenal, of course, took a long, hard and detailed look at Arteta before they eventually plumped for Emery. It was felt at the time that the younger Spaniard, having never held a managerial role before, was too raw and untested but according to The Times, they are now willing to consider him again with another 18 months’ experience working under Pep Guardiola and Manchester City. Massimiliano Allegri is mentioned in the same report as being the other man in the frame for the Arsenal job and you would imagine the Italian would be a shoo-in over Arteta if he were keen to try his hand in England.

While Arsenal boast a more rounded and talented squad with fewer injuries to key players, things feel a lot more parlous at Everton, with a daunting run of games looming ahead in December at the end of which it’s not inconceivable that the club could be in the bottom three. That has led Evertonians back to the familiar position of examining potential managerial candidates, all while an apparent majority fervently hope that Farhad Moshiri and the Board will have more imagination and have sufficiently prepared for this eventuality than to settle for David Moyes.

The unease over Everton’s position, the agony of yet another false dawn and the desire in many quarters for the club to finally hire a head coach with demonstrable experience and success at a top club is why the prospect of someone who has never managed before could be disconcerting. In that sense, bringing in Arteta would represent a massive gamble… although some would argue that every appointment is a roll of the dice to some degree; some have a higher risk to reward ratio than others.

It’s a truism, of course, that everyone has to start somewhere; it’s whether you feel they should start with a project like Everton’s that is the crux of the issue but candidates surely don’t come better on paper than Arteta who, having worked alongside the best in the game the last few years, would seem to offer a version of the old model of promoting from within but on steroids.

Originally schooled in Barcelona’s famed youth academy, he left Goodison Park in 2011 for the Emirates to play under one of the Premier League’s most successful managers and exponents of the passing game in Arsene Wenger. After he hung up his boots, he joined his one-time club-mate and friend, Guardiola, at Manchester City as assistant manager where he has helped steer the Citizens to two league titles, two League Cups and one FA Cup triumph.

In the absence of real-world experience at the helm of a team — in actual fact, he took charge of a match early in Guardiola’s City reign where he picked the side, gave the team talks and effected a tactical shift that eventually won the game — it’s the behind-the-scenes impressions of Arteta that Moshiri and, in particular, Marcel Brands would use to assess the former Goodison favourite’s suitability to the Everton role. And there are hugely encouraging things said about him and the role he plays in a City setup over which Guardiola envisages his protégé will assume full control when his contract at the Etihad Stadium runs out in 2021.

The Toffees’ own Fabian Delph has cited Arteta as being crucial to his reinvention as a player and the consequent resurrection of his career at club and international level. Arteta is credited with transforming both Delph and Oleksandr Zinchenko into fullbacks to provide emergency cover for Benjamin Mendy last season when the Frenchman suffered a long-term injury.

“Mikel Arteta has been so pivotal for me,” said Delph. “One of the reasons I have stayed at the club is because he saw the qualities in me and he knew I was available to do the role they wanted me to do.

“I think Mikel would be a fantastic manager. When the rumours were circulating about him leaving, I was thinking ‘please don’t!’ We get on very well as do all the players and staff. We’ve got a great energy and that energy is similar to what we’ve got here with England.”

As described by Sam Lee in a recent article in The Athletic, Arteta was tasked with familiarising summer acquisition and central midfielder Rodri with Guardiola’s methods and he is said to be the coach who works most closely with Raheem Sterling and has been instrumental in developing Ryad Mahrez’s wide play.

Leroy Sané, meanwhile, spoke in glowing terms of the assistant boss’s influence on him in Lu Martin and Pol Ballus’s book on Guardiola’s success in Manchester, Cuaderno de Manchester. Indeed, Arteta comes out of that tome with enormous credit.

“He’s a lovely guy and a great coach. And he’s always right. He’ll watch me at training and then afterwards he’ll tell me what he thinks. He doesn’t just suggest something and leave me to get on with it.”

Lee asserts that Arteta has worked with the wingers on body positioning, the best techniques for striking the ball and becoming more tuned to instinct while Mikel himself says in Cuaderno de Manchester that, “Our forwards have to learn to control their sprints, to hold back and wait before erupting. To go through the gears.

“The natural thing is to try to hit sixth gear, top speed, because they’re so fast these guys. But it’s important to mess with the defender’s head — to vary your pace and trick him.

“Messi produces all these nuances at a hundred miles an hour because he’s technically brilliant. These lads aren’t quite at that level yet, so if they exaggerate the changes of pace, it works better.”

While it looks like Arteta is being groomed to replace Guardiola at City — the speculation suggesting Giovanni van Bronkhorst is being given time to prove he has what it takes to succeed the Spanish legend notwithstanding — and he already has responsibility on match days drilling the team on set-piece strategies, his ability to withstand the pressure cooker of Premier League management is unknown.

Is he too young? Does he have the authority to lead and command a team, the ruthlessness to make hard selection decisions and identify transfer targets, and the temperament to deal with difficult players and times when things aren’t going his way? Can he organise a defence and manage a game? Would he be able to assemble a backroom staff capable of supporting him as a full-time manager and, just as has always been pondered with regard to his current boss, does he have the chops to survive as manager of a club that isn’t stuffed with the world-class talent that City boast in their ranks?

Guardiola clearly thinks he can. “He is already an incredible manager and he’ll have incredible success in his future,” the 48-year-old said in September. “I’m pretty sure [he could succeed me]. Sooner or later it’s going to happen.

“He’s a young young manager but he has experience already to handle big players and teams.”

If Everton were of a mind to find out if that’s the case, it’s not clear whether or not they would be able to tempt him away from the Etihad until next summer. Manchester City insiders have asserted that Arteta is too loyal to jump ship mid-season but there were press reports earlier this month that City “would not stand in his way” should an attractive offer come from another club. Were he to be off-limits until the end of the season, it would require the kind of interim appointment for which Moshiri opted two years ago when he hired Sam Allardyce.

That’s a shame, because if there are calls for David Unsworth or Duncan Ferguson to assume the reins on a temporary basis then there is surely no question that Arteta would be a far better candidate to preside over the Everton team until May, all the while proving whether or not he could assume the job on a permanent basis next summer. It would an ideal scenario and you would hope that Brands will be asking the question this week.

The more antiquated model of promoting assistant managers to the top job is no longer in vogue in the Premier League and there is certainly a pressure to go for attractive foreign coaches, particularly from the Continent, because of their more expansive and technical approach. With his Spanish roots and extensive experience in England, Mikel Arteta, of course, offers a best-of-both-worlds option for any club considering elevating a relatively untried coach to their unforgiving hot-seat and its hard to think of anyone at his level more qualified to make the step up. His Evertonian credentials are a bonus but sentimentality isn’t required in this instance.

Frank Lampard, who stepped into what was very much a sink-or-swim position at Chelsea, provides a potential precedent for what can be achieved by a novice coach returning to his former club, although he did so with the benefit of a season with Derby County, whom he almost guided into the Premier League at the first attempt. He inherited a superior squad at Stamford Bridge than the one that any future Everton appointee would but, no doubt using his experience of working under some of the best managers in the game, he has very quickly turned a young team into a dynamic, winning outfit when many expected him to struggle mightily.

Whether Arteta could have the same kind of impact is the proverbial $64,000 dollar question and it’s one Arsenal hesitated to try and answer when Wenger left. If they shy away again this time should they axe Emery, how confident would Brands and Moshiri, even in the absence of other more obvious targets, be in tasking the 37-year-old Arteta with leading Everton to Bramley-Moore Dock, particularly in view of Silva's struggles. [And there is also the question of the risk to Arteta's reputation as a fledgeling manager if everything went badly pear-shaped for him at Goodison, although you suspect it would be less than if he failed under much greater scrutiny at Arsenal.]

Fortune favours the brave but if Silva goes, the next choice is a high-stakes decision with little margin for error. The gut and the heart say yes to Arteta because he surely couldn't do much worse than we're currently going through but this head is glad it doesn’t have to make the decision!

Share article:

Reader Comments (220)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer

Paul Tran
1 Posted 25/11/2019 at 07:23:19
Excellent piece, Lyndon. I see this as both a big opportunity and gamble, thought at this point, every option is a gamble.

I'd be very pleased if he becomes our manager.

Peter Mills
2 Posted 25/11/2019 at 07:36:16
A gamble or a coup? Both, I believe, but one I would be happy to see, especially if his best pal Tim came in alongside him.

Denis Richardson
3 Posted 25/11/2019 at 07:56:15
Huge gamble but would be interesting. I’d take him over Silva or Moyes any day of the week.

With an experienced no.2 this could well work.

Jim Harrison
4 Posted 25/11/2019 at 07:56:53
Arteta with Moyes as his assistant!!
Iain Latchford
5 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:01:42
I would be happy with this. However, I think Pep will probably do a year or two more at City, then the job can be Arteta's if he's happy to wait. Arsenal will be looking for a new manager soon and I think he'd go there over us at the moment, if he wants to take the next step now. I just think it's unlikely to happen.
John Keating
6 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:02:07
I doubt very much either Arteta or City would accept coming here on a temporary basis until May just to see how things work out !!

City are still fighting for honours and I just can't see City releasing him now.

Regarding what former, past and present players say about Arteta is just a load of crap. We hear this nonsense about everyone. Silva has been an unmitigated disaster but apparently everyone he has worked with speaks in glowing terms about him.

I have no doubt tactically Arteta would be good but for me at present it would be a hell of a risk, though as Lyndon says that applies to everyone.

The main question for me, unlike our present fraud, does he have what it takes to put the so called big name senior pro's in their place.

Ray Smith
7 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:05:40
Lampard & Morris = Arteta & Cahill.
Jim Harrison
8 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:13:27
John 6

I don’t buy the argument that because silva isn’t doing well he is a fraud. Higher profile managers have failed with greater resources and he will no doubt secure future employment. Is he up to the job? Results wouldn’t suggest he has got in right, but there have been periods where his results have proved very good, especially in the latter stage of last season.
Who knows, if he had a full squad this term and secured Zouma maybe the picture would be different.
But equally, we should still be doing better even given the mitigating circumstances.
But a fraud? In some way dishonest? I can’t see that. An opportunity came his way, he hasn’t achieved success. That’s not dishonest.
Mosh is to blame for being insistent on getting his choice

Brian Williams
9 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:16:42
This obsession with favourite ex players is a really unhealthy one on my opinion. The belief that because a player loved the club, was loved by the supporters, and "gets" Everton is naive in the extreme.
Arteta has no experience as a manager. That should be enough to exclude him, again, in my opinion.
The club needs to be more professional and not nostalgic.
David Stranack
10 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:23:14
Arteta & Cahill = EfC Dream Team
John Keating
11 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:29:47
have you ever heard or read anything where Silva actually admits to doing anything wrong ?
I can't recall anything.
For sure he will say "we" did this and "we" did that wrong or panicked or didn't do what "we" practised all week to do.
Every single "we" is actually the players. He might be right to some extent because they've showed very little if anything so far, apart from the younger ones at times. Group cowardice.

However, by accepting no blame for the atrocious teams, formations, substitutions and tactics he and he alone makes he is being dishonest.

We've heard every excuse for the abysmal performances this and last season. If we'd signed Zouma, if VAR hadn't cocked up. if we hadn't had injuries etc etc. His excuses have run out as far as I'm concerned.

Starting Schneiderlin, Sigi and Tosun at home in a 4231 formation against the bottom team that can't score and ship in goals, the total panis against Sheff Utd was, in my opinion, an absolute disgrace.
We got exactly what we deserved now Silva should get his.

Joe McMahon
12 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:34:19
We cannot afford any more risks. We need proven, the obsession with ex players is unhealthy. Rafa Benitez is proven and we have never had proven in premier league existence, the nearest being Allardyce.
Bill Gienapp
13 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:39:54
I was totally against the idea of pursuing Arteta last time, but I'm starting to come around... even though it would be a huge gamble, he'd be a much better choice for the start of next season and I'm not convinced he does much more at City than set out the cones and laugh at Pep's jokes... but, experience aside, sometimes people just have a way about them that inspires confidence and Arteta may just have it.

That being said, if he really has been anointed as Pep's successor, I'm not sure why he'd want to bolt.

Ryan Holroyd
14 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:44:01
Why would Arteta want to leave man city and come to this basket case of a club. Let's get real. No one will want to damage their reputation. Moyes will be back on an 18 month contract IF Silva leaves.
Alan McGuffog
15 Posted 25/11/2019 at 08:57:56
Whoever comes in, assuming Silva spends Xmas on the Nat King Cole, there will be precious little loot to splash around come January, I reckon.
Consequently the order of the day will be to get this shower of bottlers, has beens and all round failures to pull together to keep us in the league.
I seem to recall the teary one saying this situation must never happen again, back in 1998.
We have one priority as I see it. Ensure that we finish with three sides below us. Frankly I'll take anyone who can achieve that.
Paul A Smith
16 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:01:11
Not sure who is ready to take Everton forward from the relegation zone with a team of weak links?

I don't even know if I would want that on Arteta?.

Some of them performances on Saturday were bottom half of the championship saturday. I know Silva has his errors but if I had played like that saturday I would be ashamed to admit it.

Jim Harrison
17 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:02:10
John 11

Again, not being up to the job is not the same as being a fraud. As a coach he has had success in other leagues and to a degree has managed to put together some decent performances between the 3 clubs he has managed in the PL

What he says after games in public is of no consequence. It’s all for tv.

He hasn’t been a success, but again without actually having a full first team this term there are some excuses for not being at best. But I agree that he hasn’t made the best choices with what he has had available. So, in an elite league with a decent squad he hasn’t met the level required. Hardly charlatan or fraudulent

He should be replaced in my opinion. But personally I am not a fan of name calling of hyperbole. Especially when realistically a run of 3 wins and the table would look a lot different

Fran Mitchell
18 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:13:20
People calling for Benitez - you do realise he is currently earning £12,000,000 a year in China.

How much are you willing to pay him?

Arteta is one of them, could be a masterstroke - could be disastrous. I'd be more incline to give him a chance if we were appointing in the summer, but with a potential relegation battle on the horizon it would be such a big risk.

Fran Mitchell
19 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:17:41
What about managers from lower league ( Lampard, Chris Wilder, Potter seem to have found success after coming from the lower leagues)? The likes of Lee Bowyer, Alex Neill and others seem to be doing good jobs.
Dale Rose
20 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:18:42
Arteta and Cahill, works for me.
Bill Watson
21 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:23:57
Swerve! Arteta would be a huge gamble and, 'in this moment', we're not in a position to be rolling the dice.
Andrew Dempsey
22 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:32:41
Yes, Ray! #7

Lampard was a risky appointment for a CL chasing club like Chelsea.
I personally didn’t think so.
Feel the same about Arteta, you just know he’s all about adventurous, exciting football.
He can’t do any worse.
I honestly believe Moyes would relegate us. Mikel, on the other hand, will get the place jumping.
It’s not as big a risk as it might seem.
The fact that there’s no evidence of his managerial abilities is my only concern.
With Lampard we could see some of the exciting comebacks and high scoring games he produced at Derby.
But, that doesn’t prevent Arteta being my number one choice.
We need to get him before Arsenal do.

Phil Martin
23 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:35:05
"no evidence of his managerial abilities"

Yes and that is why he is too risky an appointment.

John McGimpsey
24 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:35:44
Why bother writing when we all know meltface (ooh I'm sick) will already have the once red now grey-haired one lined up and the Jock still on the front bench... common denominator: Kenshite must go!
Joe McMahon
25 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:38:14
Correct Andrew, Lampard did have a good season at Derby. I feel he has been a manager in the waiting for years. If we have to gamble I'd rather it be Arteta over Unsworth or Moyes. Can't see City agreeing though.
Andrew Dempsey
26 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:40:45
People who think it’s too risky an appointment need to Man-up.
What are you so scared of, relegation?
Grow a pair will yer. What if he goes on to become a great manager, and we’ve missed out on him because we’re a bunch of scaredy cats, frightened of losing instead of being excited about winning. Pathetic.
Dave Williams
27 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:48:48
It would be a gamble but so would anyone else. Just because a guy has had success at one club does not mean he will at another. Jose apart most tend to struggle unless they go to a top club in an uncompetitive league. I’d go for it and if Tim comes too then great. He is also big mates with Phil Neville who of course does have some experience.
The likes of Simeone won’t come to us, Mancini would be a decent shout( his CV is awesome) but Mikel would represent a gamble worth taking, he is up to speed with the league and knows the club. Also he is multi lingual which helps these days.
Paul A Smith
28 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:50:56
Open adventurous football will put a load of slow non aggressive players in more trouble. There is a massive list of managers that can offer that.

We need something more specific.

I can't be doing with stupid comments about Kenwrights role when nobody knows and hate influences everything said.

Brian Williams
29 Posted 25/11/2019 at 09:52:07
The fact that there’s no evidence of his managerial abilities is my only concern.
Errrr, the reason there's no evidence is down to the fact that he's never managed and that should preclude him from managing Everton "in our present predicament."
It's not about being pathetic it's about being pragmatic. (IMO)
Ray Roche
30 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:03:11
Just a question here, for those who are championing Arteta/Cahill. I am fairly sure that Cahill has no Coaching qualifications yet. He stated in March that, as he'd just retired from playing, his next steps were to do more TV punditry and to study for his A Licence. I know that he owns Coaching Schools in Australia but it seems he has yet to qualify. These are run by employees/managers. Is there not a League Rule that prevents someone without the necessary qualifications from managing/coaching professionally?

I quite like the idea of Arteta, it seems his input at City is more than just putting the cones out like Ferguson is reported to do, and has taken complete charge of training, coaching and, apparently, also one match day team selection and pre-match team talk.
But really, it's anyone but Moyes. "He's got grey hair and we really DO care!!"

Phil Sammon
31 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:07:44
Ray 30

I believe you can be appointed as a coach as long as you are studying for your A licence. That piece of ‘knowledge’ has come straight from Football Manager so blame that if it’s not true.

Bill Fairfield
32 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:17:10
Depends if Mikel feels ready to take a no 1 job and reading the comments in lyndons piece it looks like he's very popular with the players and a vital cog in the city set up
Phil Martin
33 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:18:26
@Andrew Dempsey what has manning up got to do with it?

I think taking on a coach who has never been a head coach before, while we're in such a precarious position to be incredibly risky. He may be a genius, he may not be. But I'd rather back someone who gets the club and has a track record (Eddie Howe). Sorry if that opinion is too feminine for you.

Ray Roche
34 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:19:29
Thanks Phil. I thought that there was some sort of regulation demanding coaching qualifications. I don't know if Cahill has started yet, I know he's now on BBC quite regularly.
Steve Ferns
35 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:20:28
Ray, Cahill is still doing his badges. It takes time, but he's doing them quickly. He is eligible to be an Everton coach, he just cannot be manager.

If Silva is sacked, I would prefer to see Arteta get the job. If he does get the job then he should be able to select his own backroom staff. I would expect him to give Cahill a call, but if he doesn't that should be up to him.

I would hope he brings a mentor with him. Moyes brought Jimmy Lumsden in with him when he got the Everton job. Jimmy had no real pedigree but was clearly a mentor to Moyes who could be a sounding board on a daily basis. If Arteta brings in an old Spaniard who used to coach him at Real Sociedad, then great.

My concern is that Guardiola would not be the right man for us right now. And Arteta has been learning off him and so is surely moulded into his way of thinking. What can Arteta do to turn this ship around? No one knows yet.

I would still go for Arteta on the basis that he would unify and lift the fan base. For the first time since Martinez, we would hear the crowd sing the manager's name. There would be lots of goodwill towards Mikel from every Evertonian in the stadium. There wouldn't with Moyes, Benitez, Hughes or any other realistic candidate.

Ray Roche
36 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:24:37
Thanks Steve.

Good to see you put your head above the parapet ;-)

Salim Rehman
37 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:38:17
Arteta maybe a gamble, but so were Lampard (Chelsea) Steven Gerrard (Rangers).

If it's an upcoming or little Managers experience than go for someone like Patrick Viera, He has no connection with Everton so sentiments, but I wouldn't mind going for Biesla or even Phillip Cocu.

Silva OUT!!

Steve Ferns
38 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:43:22
Ray, I don't suppose I was the only Blue who went out and got extremely drunk on Saturday night! Spent yesterday recovering as I don't drink very often these days.
Sam Hoare
39 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:46:23
Would certainly be a risk. Many talented no 2s have made poor managers with the likes of Brian Kidd and Mike Phelan prime examples. Also of course many ex-players like Keane, Viera, Hughes, Pearce etc have proved sub-standard. Lampard is ealy in his tenure at the top and Gerrard is managing in a two horse race.

However, just because it is a risk does not mean it is not a good one. He's incredibly well thought of and is clearly a very good coach which is a decent start. He knows the club and crucially we know him, which means he would get more patience than most.

Overall if it were a choice between Arteta/Cahill and one of Moyes, Hughes or that ilk then I would go for Mikel.

But I do think at this precarious time a more experienced candidate might be better. I like Chris Wilder, he's done unbelievable work at Sheffield even before this season and if you think they only play 'old school' boring football then i'd suggest you've not watched them enough, they've scored more goals than us this season. I think Howe would be an ok choice but don't see that he's progressed Bournemouth much over the last few years despite investment. Marcelino would be a solid option and easy to get. Danny Cowley could be an interesting choice but probably too soon. Kovac did some great work in the Bundesliga and could be a good fit and Benitez has done good work almost everywhere he has gone if you can stomach the history.

I think my dream candidates would be Adi Hutter, Marco Rose, Marcelo Gallardo, Erik Ten Haag, Julian Nagelsmann. And the ultimate (highly unlikely) long shot is Pochetinno. The likelihood of most of these coaches is dependent on timing and most of them will be unlikely to move mid-season. Most of them will have their sights set higher than us at any rate; you can but try.

Andrew Hight
40 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:47:01
Should have been done ages ago. Will probably miss out to Arsenal now and be left with Moyes. That’s me done then
Steve Brown
41 Posted 25/11/2019 at 10:58:58
I would like to see Arteta gain experience in a managerial job before we take the chance. Our situation is truly perilous compared to Chelsea's at the start of the season.

Lampard had the benefit of some very good senior pros to help him in his transition and enable him to play younger players. Our senior players, with the exception of Seamus, are the problem. No standards, no pride, terrible mentality, awful performances. Truly a disgrace and this club will not move forward until Sigurddson, Schneiderlin, Walcott and Tosun are sold.

Steve Ferns
42 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:04:19
Sam, how much of Wilder's success is down to Alan Knill though? The guy gets little credit, but he is the coach out of the two. He deserves a lot of the plaudits going Wilder's way. Apparently they aren't friends, and so you might expect them to part ways at some point. Anyone hiring Wilder must make sure to pick up Knill and the rest of the team.

As for your other targets, Pochettino will be on holiday for a good while now. The guy needs to recharge his batteries. He's done the Everton project already at Spurs, will he really want to do it all over again? I expect Real Madrid will have him lined up, Man Utd will also be in contact, and maybe Bayern (but again that's probably too soon). All three will offer double or triple what we can.

Ten Haag is having a great season and will not leave Ajax in the CL knockouts to come to us. Maybe in the summer if Ajax don't advance past the next round. Otherwise, he'll have grander ambitions.

Gallardo is a massive risk. Does he even speak English? He's won stuff with one of the Argentinian big two, what makes you think he can do it with Everton?

Nagelsmaan is only 5 months into the Leipzig job and is in the top 3, but failing to capitalise on a stuttering Bayern. He won't quit them this season, not even if we offered him big wages.

Rose is currently top of the Bundesliga, why would he leave 5 months into his new job? And he won trophies in a one horse race in Austria.

Your man Dutter is an interesting guy, but he's midtable in a poor Bundesliga. I think the Everton fanbase would dismiss his track-record like they did Silva's.

Some even mentioned Kovac, but he's shown himself to be a very limited and basic manager. We should certainly swerve him.

Ancelotti was in the mix for Spurs. He is at war with the board in Italy, and so is certainly a possibility. Personally, I'm not a fan. But with the other fanciful names in the mix, why not consider him as he is more achievable in my eyes.

John Graham
43 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:07:53
As was famously said “ you cannot be serious “.
We are in a position where we can’t take a gamble just because he is an ex Everton player who might, just might be good enough to get mid table but more likely will be fighting relegation most of the season. We need a fix now and no matter how everyone sees it the only quick fix at this moment is David Moyes.
He has enough experience of the premiership to know what is needed to keep us there and possibly get us into the top six without wanting millions to spend on players.
Give him until the end of the season and let’s not take any stupid chances by making stupid decisions.
Andrew Dempsey
44 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:16:17
Phil #33
When I say man, I include Wo-man in that sentiment. I should have said Hu-man up. Come on, Humen, let’s take a massive risk.
When I said ‘grow a pair’, I obviously meant breasts too, I’m all inclusive, always.

p.s If we cant tempt Arteta, I would be delighted with Bielsa at the end of the season. That would mean a very important interim appointment, not sure who that should be?

Brian Harrison
45 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:18:51
I think Arteta would be a good choice, but in the summer not now. I think to come into that scenario this week, as your first job in management and be expected to turn it round would be a major ask for an experienced manager. Especially when you consider our next 4 fixtures, even as well liked as Arteta is if he started with a few heavy defeats, us fans are fickle and would soon turn against him. So by all means talk to him and tie him up to join in the summer, but for me not now.

I think Chris Wilder has proved you don't need to spend a fortune, but you need to be a good coach which he clearly is. Maybe he has the experience and know how to come in and change things around, and get results quickly. As his team showed yesterday they keep it simple, he doesnt ask them to play in areas were they arent comfortable. He plays a system that suits the strength of each of his players. His team didnt play 1 up with 10 men behind the ball as newly promoted teams often do when playing a top side.

Brent Stephens
46 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:20:13
Steve #42, re Alan Knill. I know nothing of the guy so googled. I won't cut and paste but the section on "Managerial Career" in his wiki page doesn't read well at all. Rotherham, Chesterfield (backroom staff), Bury, Sc**thorpe, Torquay - none of which seemed to work out well.

"January 2014, Knill was made assistant to the new Northampton Town manager Chris Wilder, who had been Knill's assistant at Bury. He then followed Wilder to become his assistant manager at Sheffield United in May 2016". So Wilder was Knill's assistant at Bury but the roles are now reversed. That's really curious (though I could see a reason why).

What's the intelligence on what Knill has done as Wilder's assistant?

Steve Ferns
47 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:24:01
I'll try and find an interesting article I read Brent. I was in the paper so dunno if it is online.
Brent Stephens
48 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:36:10
Cheers Steve.
Bill Gienapp
49 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:36:14
People really need to stop making assumptions re: Moyes based on what he did a decade ago. He didn't inspire the slightest flicker of fight at Sunderland and about the nicest thing you could say about his West Ham stint was that he didn't get them relegated too. They had about as much use for him at season's end as we had for Fat Sam. Arteta's a risk, but claiming Moyes could get us top six? Dream on!
Jamie Crowley
50 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:52:56
I'm all for Arteta. I said so about a month ago.

As it's nearing noon on Monday in England, I want action from the Board. The single most embarrassing thing is this acceptance, from the very top, of wholly unacceptable performances and position in the table. We're a leaderless organization - no nuts at the top of the pyramid.

At this point, I honestly don't care what route we take, just take a route already! I'll get behind anyone they appoint, sans Moyes or Sparky.

Ten Hag. Arteta. Kovacs. Some Dutch Diamond appointed by Brands. Unsworth. Some lower league potential diamond I'm not aware of. Any of them I'll get behind.

I don't know what the route will be. But I do know my pride is taking a MIGHTY beating, as we sit around and do nothing. The result of our inaction being one to send the message that we're okay with everything that's going on.

It's embarrassing. I've said it before - any other Club would have taken action by now. But the Everton hierarchy sit on their hands and say, "It's okay. Give him another few games."

We are run by seriously cowardly decision makers. Minimally, they should have fired Silva before midnight on Sunday.

Drive on down the road Mikel! Save this sinking ship.

David Pearl
51 Posted 25/11/2019 at 11:56:50
Arteta would not be any more a gamble than any appointment. The players would look up to him the fans idolise him. He would bring us together. All this team needs is condidence, and a bit of tweaking. If we don't get him then I would expect him to go to another team.

Of Moyes or Howe. I'd prerer Moyes or we could be involved in another messy drawn out negotiation for a manager too similar to Silva. I don't think he would have the immediate impact we need. Moyes would give them all a kick up the backside and would make us more compact. He is a short term option that would be less of a gamble and perhaps could be offered longer. I don't hold grudges.

But its still Arteta for me. Go for it now... there is nothing going for keeping Silva for a single minute longer. He lost most of us last season, he is a lazy manager for me. Tries a couple new things against City and West Ham then reverts back to his norm. Why?

Ray Roche
52 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:08:15
Steve Ferns,
I read today that Spurs were priced out of Ancellotti because he wanted too much. Mourinho may not have been first choice!
Steve Ferns
53 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:21:56
David, I don't think lazy is the word, I think scared.

If I was to guess what went wrong, I think he might lack the ability to dominate the players.

I am utterly convinced that Marco Silva does not want to pick Gylfi Sigurdsson. No doubt that Gylfi was or still might be a good player, but he's not of the type (profile) that Silva goes for in a number 10.

My guess here is that the big personalities have persuaded him to play them. How on earth is Sigurdsson getting a game on Saturday? Same with Cenk Tosun. Are they just more forceful personalities and the likes of DCL is more easy going and so they sit out? Kean looks like he'd be a quite lad, especially with his lack of English, so it's easier to drop them?

That performance and team selection on Saturday was not what you expect from a Marco Silva team. So maybe he is weak. You need your manager to be stronger and put the likes of Gylfi in their place.

Ray Smith
54 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:22:34
Brian 9

Arteta/ Cahill is not an obsession.

It certainly isn’t ‘naive in the extreme’.

There appear to be a considerable number of TW’s in this thread that would go for Arteta.

If as you say, proven experience and a winner, Benitez fits the bill, despite his often used comment, that we are a small club.

Chinese league finishes 1st December, and his family still live on Merseyside, (I’ll stand corrected on the date and his family situation).

Daniel A Johnson
55 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:22:57
Its a no from me,

Zero experience, can he motivate this group, what if we dig ourselves into an even bigger hole can he get us out of it? He's used to dealing with Superstar players who all bow down to Pep not lazy work shy shirkers, can he motivate them, can he tear a strip off them, can he fire them up?

What type of football does he personally want to play will it be a good fit with the crap at his disposal here?

Give Sean Dyche a 3 yr rebuild project, then make a decision on the next man to take us to the next level. We need a man to instil the billy basics back into the squad, such as heart and desire and effort. We ned to learn to walk again, when were too busy trying to run.

Stan Schofield
56 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:24:21
Difficult to see Arteta being any more of a gamble than any other reasonable candidate. But also difficult to see City letting him go at the moment.
Steve Ferns
57 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:26:17
Daniel, Arteta has a real nasty streak to him. We saw it plenty of times. He's a Basque and they're quite like us. It doesn't matter if you're small or outnumbered, a scouser won't back down or run off. Arteta is the same. So no doubt he can tear a strip off players.

Arteta also spent a long time under Moyes, so I'm sure he knows about drilling defences, even if Pep is more concerned with attack.

Stan, he is most certainly available. Pep Guardiola has said, and will no doubt confirm in his next press conference, that he will not stand in Arteta's way. The only issue is whether Arteta is actively being groomed to be Guardiola's successor and it seems more likely that Guardiola will walk when his contract ends in the summer of 2021.

Denis Richardson
58 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:26:55
West Ham rumoured to be speaking to Benitez. If he’s goes there and we get Moyes that’s it for me.

Wife couldn’t care less about football as it is so she’ll be over the moon.

Tony Abrahams
59 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:27:53
Why would Wilder leave the club he has supported all his life? that’s before there is even any news on Everton wanting him. I hope he stays where he belongs, and carries on with the great work he his doing with Sheff Utd.

He’s obviously what Paul Tran, goes on about all the time, a good organiser, and a good communicator, and Steve hits on an interesting theme with regards Alan Knill, who is obviously a much better coach, than a manager.

Harvey was a great coach, he helped transform his mate, who then went on to transform Everton, but I’m not sure Colin was a good manager though?

My own dream team would be Arteta as the coach, and little Timmy Cahill, as the manager. You can tell that one of them is very clever, a football man who has been around some of the best clubs, and players, for most of his life, and the other one, the one who wasn’t so gifted, has had to work so hard to achieve his dreams?

Cahill has the drive and the tenacity, and Arteta has got the football brain, best mates who met at Everton, and the perfect combination in what most Evertonians look for, when they think about their club. A combination of heart, bravery and desire, and a combination of skill, and speed of thought, but please let Timmy be the boss!

Jamie Crowley
60 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:28:41
Steve -

My guess here is that the big personalities have persuaded him to play them.

If that's the case, he should be fired immediately.

A manager who can't name the proper side because big personalities have persuaded him to play them? What??

I've heard some theories, but if there's any shred of truth to any of your thoughts, Marco Silva should get throw to the curbside immediately, and with a degree of force.

We've hired a pussy who can't name the side because of the big personalities persuading him to play them! Good God if it's really that low, we are truly fucked.

Alan McGuffog
61 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:30:50
Just can't see Arteta wanting to begin a managerial career with a club quite likely to be relegated.
Having witnessed the train wreck that is EFC over the last thirty years I predict, confidently, that our next appointment in the dug out will leave us totally underwhelmed.
Ray Roche
62 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:33:09
I can see City letting Arteta go on a two year contract. Once he’s gained some experience he’s back at City when Pep goes.
Steve Ferns
63 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:33:23
You may well be right Tony, but Arteta won't be Cahill's number 2. He's going to get a top managerial job soon enough.
Paul Tran
64 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:33:39
Steve #53, that's exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to communication and man-management.
Brian Harrison
65 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:34:29

You are suggesting that Arteta leave being assistant to possibly the best manager in World football and come here to be assistant to Cahill.

Derek Taylor
66 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:35:26
Simples, really, most of us would see an Arteta appointment as the Club looking forward. Going back to Moyes could only indicate that we are going nowhere with Kenwright still calling the shots.
Steve Ferns
67 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:36:13
Jamie, just a guess on my part. I've no clue, but all I know is that team on Saturday was not a Marco Silva team, Gylfi Sigurdsson is not a Marco Silva player. Iwobi is. Yet we played Sigurdsson over Iwobi. Why was that? It makes absolutely no sense. Same with Tosun over Calvert-Lewin.

Sigurdsson did what Sigurdsson does. 21 completed passes in 95 minutes. And he's our number 10. Iwobi would have got on the ball more and made something happen, and he does that best in the middle, because I don't think he is a winger.

John Graham
68 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:37:53
We all need to take off our blue tinted glasses because to put an inexperienced manager in just because he is well thought of doesn't make him a good manger.
At the end of the season when we are safe, yes give him a try, especially with Cahill at his side, but this is not a time to gamble.
Moyes is probably not the answer either but would get far more fight out of the current squad and could possibly have Arteta and Cahill as coaches until the end of the season to bed them in.
Most top managers are not going jump ship at this time if their team are doing well and if they do it would lead to big compensation claims and poaching claims.
Now is a time to steady the ship and not to make a panic appointment of an ex player ( remember Tierry Henry, Gary Neville, Paul Scholes, Alan Shearer, Edgar Davids, or going back further Bobby Carlton and the great Alan Ball)

Steve Ferns
69 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:38:27
Brian, that's not what he said. He gave us his preference. Tony clearly said he believes Cahill and Arteta would make a great team with Cahill as the number 1 and Arteta as the number 2. It's not the same as asking for that to happen.
Tony Abrahams
70 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:39:01
Jamie, he should have been fired on Saturday at 5pm regardless mate, because it really was that bad.

When the going is tough, I always think about that Beatles classic, “I want to hold your hand” because this is when you need people close to you, but Everton’s team have got no combinations, no one next to each other working in pairs, and only a look of resignation when they hear the moans from the crowd

Daniel A Johnson
71 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:44:33
All good points Steve, but for me its what we need right now that counts and I'd be happier with a Dyche than an Arteta.

A manager who can come in get us toughened up hard to beat, instil some discipline and pride into the performances. That's why I'd like to see Dyche given a crack at the whip at Goodison.

I'd rather see us going back to rough and tumble football and winning 1-0 and 2-0 than playing open expansive shite that doesn't suit the squad and results in slow boring football with no passion.

Our squad is a major rebuild away from attracting a top tier manager. Get Dyche in.

Jim Hourigan
72 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:44:53
Whilst I'm not sure about Arteta I am sure that Moyes should never be allowed back in our club given the way he behaved towards the end.
Have people forgotten about him deliberately running down his contract so we got no compensation, then him meeting Ferguson in secret months before the end of the season in a stitch up.

Finally look at his record since he left NOT some rose tinted view of the years before he went. In the last 3 years of his tenure the majority of blues would have been happy to see him go, the football was crap. Whats his win % since he left ? less than 30% - thats relegation form if nothing else.

If he arrives, I leave, and my seat will be empty for the remainder of the season, and I didn't even do that under fat sam.

Fran Mitchell
73 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:45:09
Acording to the Guardian, Lucien Favre is under pressure at Dortmund and could well part-ways. Similar to Klopp's time, a period of success appears to be ending on a down-note - probably more a result of Dortmunds continued model of buy cheap and young, sell high, meaning forever having to replace the clubs best players and rebuild.

Favre would be a brilliant shout for this club. So now based on one article in the Guardian, I will boldly state that I am pro-Favre and campaign for his appointment as manager.

Steve Ferns
74 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:49:54
Fran, what's Favre won though? He's an older manager, not a young one. His Dortmund side came up short last season, and this season they are struggling to keep pace with a stuttering Bayern and Mochengladbach who are top.

Klopp was still in his 40s when he left Dortmund and had won more in his short career than Favre has in his long one. I'm not convinced Favre is the man who can take us forwards.

Sam Hoare
75 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:58:50
Steve F @42, alot of good managers depend heavily on the team around them, just looks at Silva this season! I guess i'm assuming that most managers would be able to bring their teams along as thats the usual case.

I said in my post that alot of those dream options would depend on timing and few would be available now. Or possibly at all. Hence the word dream!

As for Ancelotti its been about 30 years since he managed a mid-table club. Good manager but doesn't feel like the right fit for me. Would he come and could we afford him?

I do quite like Favre as an option. Might prefer someone a bit younger but good manager.

Fran Mitchell
76 Posted 25/11/2019 at 12:59:08
At the minute, we are going backwards. Favre has great experience, and would command respect. His style would make our fans happy, and he'd be a name to maybe convince the likes of Richarlison and Kean to stay.

He has an excellent record of bringing through youngsters. For 2-3 years, he could bring back some pride to this club, and put us in a position to attract a long term replacement.

John Raftery
77 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:12:57
If Arteta can get Sigurdsson into sixth gear he will be the miracle worker we need. In fact third gear would be an achievement. And that is the point. After coaching Sterling, De Bruyne, Mahrez, Jesus and Aguero taking over a struggling club with a very limited pool of talent in mid season would be one hell of a gamble. Both for us and Arteta. If such an appointment is to be made the best time to do it is in the summer.
Raymond Fox
78 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:12:58
If I was Arteta I wouldn't touch us with a barge pole, what happens if he has a poor start if indeed was offered and took the job?

We supporters and that includes me havn't a great record lately of supporting managers when results go pear shaped have we.
We have sacked the present Belgium and Holland managers, Allardyce who would probably be still Englands manager yet but for that sting, a home grown in Unsworth and now possibly Silva.
I'm not disputing that they all have faults but I think we have been too quick to condemn, Goodison has become too toxic too soon.
At this stage if Silva is sacked we definitely don't want an inexperienced or first time manager thats a frying pan into the fire situation.

James Stewart
79 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:13:10
While I can appreciate the desperation for anyone that is not Moyes or Hughes, I don't think the answer is someone who has never managed.

We are a sinking ship, it's a big ask for Arteta to come in and sort out the current mess. It's also not a gamble a man like Moshiri will take.

The biggest problem is also the board are not "settling" for Moyes, they genuinely want him. That is the level at which we are run as a club. Depressing times.

Paul A Smith
80 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:17:11
Unite the fanbase I saw in a few posts. That is more Dreamy than hoping Messi signs in January.

The fanbase is crippled frustrated and depressed. Fans can't even Unite over the next manager choice in this thread and when it does happen, the first murmurs will be some Brands,/FIFA fan criticising the choice.

Nicholas Ryan
81 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:19:50
Is Arteta up to it?

perhaps a good starting point, would be: 'Ask Fabian Delph'

Brian Harrison
82 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:25:32

I don't know how you come up with the theory that Sigurdsson isn't Marco Silvas type of player, he has practically been an ever present since Silva arrived. You say Iwobi IS a Marco Silva type player yet he has dropped him on a number of occasions or not started him. Your argument doesnt stand up, like you I was a supporter of Marco Silva but its just not working, I also don't think Marcel Brands is blameless in this shambles.

Now if you had used the argument to say Brands hasnt bought the type of player Silva wanted then I believe that is the case. Obviously the signing of young Kean, who might turn out to be a terrific player, but its not what Silva needed right now. I would also suggest he wasnt overly pleased with the signing of Mina as days after he went and got Zouma, who he preffered ahead of Mina when Mina was fit.

Gary Reeves
83 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:25:50
I don't understand the reasoning why we would make Mikel Arteta our new manager. And not one of the above posts persuades me otherwise.. We're in trouble - that would be an enormous gamble.
Steve Ferns
84 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:32:01
Brian, Silva's number 10s are players like Evandro and Fortounis. Players who are fast. His teams always moved the ball quickly. Sigurdsson does not fit into that. There is nothing in his past to show that he likes such a player. All the evidence is to the contrary. That's why I am so sure.

I would love to be able to ask Silva why he never played his preferred formation, why we only ever saw glimpses of his trademark fast football, and preferably why he persevered with Sigurdsson.

Jim Harrison
85 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:44:05
Missed out big time on Rodgers.

I maybe alone in this, in fact I know I am alone, but is Poch really out of reach? Hes a task master, expecting exceptional levels of fitness and running. Does that suit Real? Perhaps Bayern. The UTD squad isn't set for that style of play. Arsenal? After managing spurs? He would be up against in from the first day.
He has had 5 great seasons at spurs, but he is hardly in the elite bracket yet. 5 seasons, no trophy. We beat Moyes with that same stick.
If Mosh doesnt at least sound him out it would be a great shame.

Dream on Jim. Dream on.

Jason Wilkinson
86 Posted 25/11/2019 at 13:58:34
Has he gone yet?
Daniel A Johnson
87 Posted 25/11/2019 at 14:01:58

Your Moshiri who's your pick?

And don't say I'd Stick with Silva. lol

Denis Richardson
88 Posted 25/11/2019 at 14:15:18
Steve 74 - sorry but how can you knock someone else’s suggestion with a ‘what has he won though?’.

Answer is just as much a Silva, if not more. Favre has won the league and cup in Switzerland (twice). Would say that’s less Mickey Mouse than winning the Greek league with Olympiakos (who’ve won the league about 18 times in the last 20 years). He also won the super cup with Dortmund last year.

I know you’re still sticking with Silva (even though it’s blatantly obvious his ‘’style’ simply does not work in the premiership). But knocking Favre with a ‘but what has he won’ is a bit ridiculous imo.

At some point you’re going to have to admit to yourself that Silva (in England anyway) is a crap manager. Another snake oil salesman ala Martinez with a sharp suit and fat watch and nothing else.

Jim Wilson
89 Posted 25/11/2019 at 14:17:06
It's about the people hiring the manager too and I think that is where the problem lies.

I wouldn't be hiring someone because they say they will have Everton in the Champions League in 3 years or if they say I need to sign v w x y & z in my first year and then a b & c in my second and we'll then have a good team.

I would want to hear that they will work with what we have and maybe make two crucial signings, a midfield general and a striker, keep a settled team to get them used to a system and form great understanding with the players around them.

Kenwright has sung the praises of past managers because they sounded good. But there was little substance.

Bill Gall
90 Posted 25/11/2019 at 14:22:39
First of all regarding defense of Silva, lets not keep using the if word to offer excuses. We have to look at the reality of the situation that he as manager has got Everton in, from the start of pre season games, to the present.

Silva is the one who is responsible for team selection, tactics and game management and he is failing. Yes some of the players are letting him down but he still plays them the following games, and of course he is going to say he is the one to change it around. What is the saying (a leopard cant change its spots).

The choice of Arteta is certainly a risky prospect as he has not managed a club before.He may have worked under a couple of world class managers for experience, but being an understudy to a world class manager plus some of the best players in the world, it is a big leap to go from that environment to a struggling club for his first managerial position that may make or break him.

The other negative I believe is when managers are hired from other clubs they usually bring their own coaching staff,and as Arteta does not have a coaching staff he will have to use Everton staff.

The person who overall for this mess is Moshiri, as he was the one who wanted Silva, and I think he is reluctant to admit he made a mistake.

Steve Ferns
91 Posted 25/11/2019 at 14:23:15
Daniel, I said ages ago, if I had to get rid of Silva I would go for Arteta. I would rather give it Unsworth until the end of the season than Moyes.

Denis, Favre is 62, not a 41 year old. Silva was appointed in the hope he would get better and better and take us somewhere. Favre has been around a long time. Just because he won the league in Austria with RB Salzberg, what makes you think he will take us up the league to where we should be?

John Graham
92 Posted 25/11/2019 at 14:35:11
Arteta - no - inexperienced
Howe - no - no win in seven too much pressure at Everton
Dyche - no - sacked by Watford, too defensive
Favre - no - too old, only successful in Austria
Unsworth - no - not experienced enough, too scared to manage elsewhere
Benitez - no - just nooooo
Mark Hughes - never in a million years
Jim Wilson
93 Posted 25/11/2019 at 14:47:03
John Graham
You missed out
David Moyes - never in a million years
Mike Gaynes
94 Posted 25/11/2019 at 14:55:02
Excellent article, Lyndon. And I agree with the posters here who say it would be a gamble for both, and potentially a coup for both.

I would only point out that Arteta's previous Everton association would mean little to Moshiri and Brands. If they chose him, it would be on merit alone.

John Graham
95 Posted 25/11/2019 at 15:10:58
Sorry Jim
Did miss out Moyes

Moyes. - best short term option, did a good job filling in at West Ham. Got Arnautovic playing like a top striker which hopefully he could do with one or two of our forwards and he would get some fight out of the players.

David Hallwood
96 Posted 25/11/2019 at 15:16:39
Arteta will want to do it the Barca way ie play out from the back. We've been here before with Martinez; great way to play IF you have the players.

But as for he'd be a gamble, everyone and everything's a gamble, and this can't go on

Bobby Mallon
97 Posted 25/11/2019 at 15:26:51
No he would be great just what we need with Cahill and Phil Neville get it done.
Bobby Mallon
98 Posted 25/11/2019 at 15:28:50
Oh and tell who ever comes in this they have to play 2 bloody strikers
Kevin Dyer
99 Posted 25/11/2019 at 15:32:12
Gamble. Probably looking at the Arse job anyway. We don't have a team that would provide any solidity to a rookie manager and no real funds for a January splurge. I'd much rather we went for Howe, who has somehow kept a team of jobbers up repeatedly with zero money, has lots of experience for a fella who's still early 40s and is overdue s step up, in truth. Much as the big clubs now don't trust academy graduates they won't trust guys like Howe.

I mean, how many times have we watched him out-strategize our supposedly superior manager, equipped with better players now? I think he'd be a significant upgrade and think he'd rise to the challenge of managing ostensibly better players; he's managed up through the divisions so can handle all types. I think he'd be a good fit for a bigger team one day, so why not us? He's taken Bournemouth as far as they can go, given their size and is probably overdue a step up.

Denis Richardson
100 Posted 25/11/2019 at 15:37:54
Steve 91 - I honestly couldn’t care what age our manager is as long as the guy can get results. Who cares if he’s 41 or 61? Can argue it either way: youth v experience.

Very odd reference imo - age is utterly irrelevant as whoever we get very likely won’t be around for more than 3-4 years max As it is. Just look at the average management posting in the league. Most of the leagues’ managers have been in situ for less than 2 years.

I’m not looking for another Moyes. Just anyone half decent for 2-3 years to get the club back on its feet. One step at a time.

You going to refuse Nagelsmann cos he’s a baby at 32? Or does than make him and even better prospect as he’s even younger?

Bobby Mallon
101 Posted 25/11/2019 at 15:53:09
John Graham


Christy Ring
102 Posted 25/11/2019 at 16:09:32
Great article Lyndon, Would love to see Arteta offered the job. A very astute person, as Steve said, from the basque region, no pushover, his own man, and after working with Pep and Wenger, he has certainly learned his trade, and would have no problem picking his own backroom team. Is it a gamble? No matter who we pick, it’s a gamble, Moyes has been out of the game for the last few years, a backward step, Howe mediocre at B’mouth, Dyche boring. Fortune follows the brave, Arteta would lighten up Goodison, and with Moshiri I’m charge, he’s guaranteed funds, as well as that, Everton is a big club to start your managerial career, unless Arsenal come calling. A new fresh approach is the way to go, keep Kenwright out of the picture.
Lenny Kingman
103 Posted 25/11/2019 at 16:23:39
With the Arsenal connections we seem to have been accumulating over recent times, Moshiri and the potential money bags Kazakstahni, why not get Wenger in, with Arteta once more as his understudy. Maybe they can wake up Walcott. And all the other oxygen stealers taking vast wages for no product.

It's all been very depressing for Blues fans for a very long time. Arsene and Arteta may stop the football world at large laughing their manky heads off at our antics and give the club back the respect that has overall been lost for this once great club.

Of course Wenger may go sacre bleu at the notion of it but he does seem to want another job in football. But at the elite level of Bayern Munich it seems. But if it's a real challenge he wants then this is the place for him.

Steve Ferns
104 Posted 25/11/2019 at 16:32:29
Denis an inexperienced manager can get better. An older manager should be a proven one. Lucien Favre has proven what exactly? He won the Swiss League twice in 2006 and 2007, and 2 Swiss Cups. The point about the ages was Silva won his 3 trophies in a 7 year career before coming here. Favre has won his 4 trophies in a 26 year career. So what makes you think from his record he can get better and do what we need him to do?
Steve Ferns
105 Posted 25/11/2019 at 16:34:55
Lenny Wenger has a job. He is now FIFA's head of global football development. He's in the press today talking about how he is going to sort out VAR. There were rumours he turned down Bayern to take that well paid job.
Iain Latchford
106 Posted 25/11/2019 at 16:46:56
Kevin 99, Bournemouth have spent £160m in the last three years. Hardly zero.
Tony Twist
107 Posted 25/11/2019 at 17:21:55
For Arteta to be a success he really needs an experienced number two and a lot of luck. I want a ruthless streak in our new manager, I just don't see it in Arteta.
Andrew James
108 Posted 25/11/2019 at 17:27:35
Mr Ferns

I was thinking this last night. Our Icelandic "playmaker" isn't one who fits the Silva style. He, like Schneiderlin, doesn't fit the remit or "philosophy".

Both slow the game down through the spine. I thought last season that Sigurdsson was only being constantly played because he did put on some splendid individual moments and was the only viable option as the 10.

I thought it was telling when he got dropped this season, we looked to have more balance and he came on to revel in a virtuoso performance from the bench.

I agree with you yet given he wasn't signed under the Silva and Brands regime, I don't understand why we have persisted with him so much. I too would love to ask Silva that question and why he brings back another player - who he didn't bring in - Schneiderlin to be crowbarred into a team at a level he isn't good enough for.

If Silva loses his job through loyalty or bottling it to certain senior players, more fool him.

Paul Hewitt
109 Posted 25/11/2019 at 17:37:54
Arteta or Eddie Howe. And we wonder why the club keeps failing.
Andrew Ellams
110 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:19:57
He would be the gamble that could prove to be a coup. But he'd be higher up my list than some of the makes with no PL experience flying around
Mark Guglielmo
111 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:25:31
I read ~15 comments and realized that it's probably devolved into:

1) Yes, absolutely, everyone's a risk but Arteta's upside is tremendous so he's a great option
2) "He has no managerial experience" (this is literally the only objection I've read so far on a multitude of sites)

Is there anything else that's deviated from this?

I'm firmly in the #1 camp, and have been, because as Lyndon said, there isn't a single manager that doesn't come with risk. Regarding risk, I believe that depends on how you define the word in this instance. If 'risk' to you is risk of being relegated, I think that's unrealistic and pretty much unfounded. Happy to elaborate should anyone care. I don't know what else might define risk here.

As far as 'no managerial experience,' factually that is correct. But I'd like to ask anyone in this camp to please name a manager that began with experience. AFAIK, everyone has to start somewhere. Why can't Everton finally be a Club who gives a high-upside manager that start? The reasons I support Arteta:

* former Blue, well-liked by a majority of supporters past & present (this alone is different from the previous 4 managers)
* the above would almost guarantee uniting the fans and create a "same page" feeling that's been missing for too long
* would be connected to the Club, the supporters, and the community, and never hide or stonewall this imperative component
* as a footballer, he primarily played midfield; IMO such a position gives someone the vision that comes with it - offensive, defensive, strong sense of in-game/on-field experience if you will
* speaks multiple languages and would presumably have a much better 2-way communication with our global roster
* extremely familiar with both English football and specifically the EPL (including all current Premiership teams)
* would be incredibly driven to prove himself and launch his career for EFC
* and of course, has been understudy to the single greatest manager in the football world, which (IMO) means: he's seen how Pep runs training & drills, how Pep inspires & builds "will run through walls for him" bonds, has absorbed different tactics & strategies for a multitude of opponent and/or game scenarios, has sat in on every meeting pre-, mid-, and post-game to discuss what went right/wrong and adjust, has tactically seen approach go from whiteboard-to-pitch, has observed what effective in-game management & substitutions should look like, and lastly, understands that success begets success; that "winning attitude"
* could succeed

* no managerial experience
* could fail

* willingness to blood in youth (I have no idea)
* opinion of value of Academy players (kind of the same, but I have no idea)

Rick Tarleton
112 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:26:44
The idea that ex players have a natural affinity with their old clubs is downright dangerous. However, Arteta has been an assistant to an excellent coach in Guardiola and may possibly have learned a few things.
I do fear that he would prefer the Arsenal position. As for Cahill, he seems knowledgeable as a pundit, but has very little experience of coaching.
Howe may be a more pragmatic choice.
Darren Hind
113 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:30:04
"Unhealthy obsession with ex players". . You simply couldnt make stuff like that up.

Its nearly 25 years since we had we won anything co-incidentally we were managed by an ex player.

Since then we have tried every shape and size, Walter Mitty, The dour Scot, The Phenomenal Spaniard. The straight talking Dutchman, The English coward. The Portuguese prattler. . We've tried them all and we have not won a fucking Banny mug. We havent even been close.
We havent qualified for the CL. We are, by some distance, the richest failures in the EPL. Whats it gonna take for the penny to drop with some people ?. . . Its not just poor results. We've been last on MOTD for fifteen years because our football has been pug ugly. THERE WAS NO EX EVERTON PLAYER SQUANDERING FORTUNES TO PRODUCE SHITE.

I`m not saying there isnt an obsession, but the one I see is a very different one and yes its seriously unhealthy. Its almost as if being a blue is a sin. Something to hold against a man.

The last time we won something we were led by a blue and the time before that and the time before that.. Its not about "getting Everton". Thats what they dont understand. Its actually about giving a shit about Everton. If the "NO-EX-BLUES" crew get their way we will be paying of another half baked foreign poster boy before the end of next season.

Let bring in somebody who gives a shit ! I`d sooner take a chance on Arteta than another mercenary gobshite who only sees this club as a monster pay day

Andrew Ellams
114 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:40:19
Darren it is 25 years but that doesn't stop names like Cahill, Ferguson and even Stubbs being thrown about when it looks like there might be a vacancy coming up. I'm surprised I haven't seen Phil Neville mentioned yet.
Steve Ferns
115 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:40:27
Andrew James, he would certainly have a long list of regrets to add to other areas where he will feel hard done to.

His comments after the Norwich game were correct. We played without tempo and our players were too static. However, that was his fault for playing Gylfi and Cenk Tosun. He denied the team mobility by selecting less mobile players and leaving Iwobi and DCL on the bench.

He has to take the sole blame for Saturday because he well and truly was the author of his own downfall in that game.

Frank Sheppard
116 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:43:14
Arteta would be a great choice but unlikely City would let him go, and unlikely he want to drive our crashing bus.
Mark Guglielmo
117 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:44:31
Steve, I can't believe you referred to Bayern as "stuttering" above, lol. (1 pt off 1st, +17 gd, undefeated through 4 in the CL). Damn, what does "cruising" look like?! :-P
Rick Tarleton
118 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:47:59
Darren, being an ex Everton player neither increases( nor decreases) the ability to coach Everton. Sure Kendall and Catterick were ex Everton players, but Guardiola, Klopp and Rogers had no playing connection with the clubs they currently manage successfully. Having played for Everton is an irrelevance.
Paul A Smith
119 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:49:02
Eddie Howe. The English version of Silva. Lovely visions of expansive open tikky takka and loses around 18 games a season.

No aggression, no desire to change tactics is what everyone has cried about for weeks. How anyone can moan about Silva but want Eddie Howe is beyond a joke.

Imagine this lot serving up what Bournemouth have served up for 5 years.

I think Darren Hind is spot on about the former player as manager situation too. There is far more evidence to say a former player does better than a new man with no affiliation.

Steve Ferns
120 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:50:34
Mark, if they were cruising, why did they sack their manager? Why did the fans hate him so much after he did the double? Why do the players dislike him so much?
Eddie Dunn
121 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:51:11
On Arteta, why would he come here? Why would Guardiola want disruption to his set-up when they are struggling to cope with injuries but still in with an outside shot at the title and of course still in the other competitions. If we were at the end of May, I could imagine it but not now.
James Flynn
122 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:56:31
I've decided that I want Arteta.

I'll support whomever comes in, but Miki will do for me.

Won't even need a new song!

Steve Ferns
123 Posted 25/11/2019 at 18:56:37
Eddie, he is better here than Arsenal. Arsenal want top 6 minimum. Their fans are furious and they are 1 point off 5th. Arteta would be under pressure. Arsenal have Edu as Director of Football. A lot will depend on how he gets on with him. I know their careers did not overlap but they should know each other.

He may believe Brands is better to work with. Recruitment is not an area he will have an experience of. Guardiola will have shown him how to do the job without being involved in recruitment and so I think he will work better with Brands.

Darren Hind
124 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:02:00

You miss the point entirely. Its not about coaching ability alone. Its about actually caring, not just being here for the pay day. Matinez was too busy moonlighting during the world cup for TV, to organise a pre season.

You couldnt get Koeman off the Golf course long enough to know his best team.

The Knight King was too busy talking to Talk Sport every day.

At no stage do I say being an ex blue makes you more qualified to coach our side. What I did do was put up several examples as to why it shouldnt be a reason to count them out.

This anti blue feeling increasingly expressed by people who have no idea what what ex players do is just pie in the sky drivel

Mark Guglielmo
125 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:02:34
Steve @120, "sacking their manager" does not equal "stuttering," sorry mate.

For starters, it was a mutual decision. Kovac knew he had lost the dressing room, and resigned (Google it). He left on amicable terms. The core reason was over a disorganized defense that was bleeding goals (overshadowed by their wickedly potent offense), and the respected voice of their more senior players (Lewandowski, Muller, Neuer).

I gave you 3 reasons that disprove the belief that they're stuttering. 7-3-2 just isn't stuttering, or even mildly faltering. They're 3 weeks off demolishing Borussia 4-0 in Der Klassiker. The problem wasn't Bayern, it was Kovac (somewhere in one of these threads I cited some of this as reasons why I wouldn't want him at Everton). Oh and not sure if you knew, but I'm a big Bayern supporter and have watched 100% of their matches (all televised comps) for 3+ years now.

Paul Tran
126 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:04:33
I'm not one of the 'it's got to be a blue' crowd. Never will be.

I'm happy to make an exception with Cahill. He has a winner's mentality that has to be at this club and made the best of his talent. The kind of man I'd want on my side regardless of who he played for.

I'm happy to make an exception with Arteta. Skilful player with more than a hint of devil when it suited him. Articulate guy who looked a good coach of the future while a player. Working with the best in the business. Top players praising specific work of his. Again, the kind of man I'd want on my side regardless of who he played for.

Catterick, Kendall & Royle were more than ex-Everton players, they were great, great and very good managers.

Let's face it, it's going to be Arteta & Cahill, Howe, Dyche or another laptop-cuddling mutterer from overseas.

All a risk. I know who I'd choose, regardless of who they played for. They just happen to be ex-Everton players.

Steve Ferns
127 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:08:50
Mark, if you say so. I'm only a casual observer of that League, and I follow Schalke now. However, the likes of Rapha Honigstein have been pretty scathing of Bayern.

So as a supporter of Bayern, is Kovac good enough for us? And what about Ancelotti, are you (like me) also of the opinion that he is overrated?

Paul which laptop-cuddler have we employed so far? I know two Everton managers who were stats obsessed and had a big computer analysis department, and it won't be the two you will name.

Mike Gaynes
128 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:09:39
Mark & Steve, thanks for the clarity on Kovac. I posted something about his availability the other day, but I hadn't actually seen him manage Bayern much and was looking for someone with more information than I had.

Funny how a guy could be so popular at Frankfurt and such a wreck at Bayern. Must have been way too much of a step up in class.

Eddie Dunn
129 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:13:14
Steve@123, Remember that Arteta saw Arsenal as a preferable place than to stay with us, and of course he won things there and most likely still has friends there.
I wonder if he has any particular affection for us?
I bet (apart from Blue Bill and maybe Jimmy Martin) there won't be anyone he knows at Finch Farm!
I just can't see it happening.
The chat on Talkshite this evening was about Nuno being odds-on for the Arse job.
Brian Wilkinson
130 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:15:59
Not too sure about Arteta, unproven at management level, could be a huge gamble.

Did we not do the same when we appointed Colin Harvey when we promoted him from assistant, and look at the players he had.

We need to get this one right, so for now a no from me.

Darren Hind
131 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:17:24

I don't think the is an "it's got to be a blue" crowd. The guy I've been advocating for over four years (Howe) didnt play for Everton.

I think there is very definitely an it-cant-be-a-blue movement.
I see it on here every day. People calling for the removal of junior coaches because they once played for us.

There is a regular poster on here who found out what an albatross kenwright is around the clubs neck about five years after the rest of us. Like a teenager who thinks he has invented sex. He comes on almost daily to tell us what we knew years ago. Trouble is, he tries to tar every ex player with the same brush. . You need to know what you are talking about to do that and he doesnt.

Mike Gaynes
132 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:17:55
PT #126, it would indeed be great to see Cahill involved at Everton, but he can't be manager or even assistant manager without the necessary licenses, which he isn't even close to.

As I understand it, you need a UEFA Pro license to manage full-time in the Prem. You need a UEFA A license to be an interim or assistant manager. Cahill came to Finch Farm this fall to work on his A license, which supposedly takes two years to get.

If I'm wrong on any of this, somebody please correct me, but to the best of my knowledge we couldn't hire him even if we wanted to.

Eddie #129, I've wondered the same thing.

Mark Guglielmo
133 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:22:26
Steve, quick point out from my comment above: "The problem wasn't Bayern, it was Kovac (somewhere in one of these threads I cited some of this as reasons why I wouldn't want him at Everton)." So no, I definitely don't believe he's a good fit for us.

I can't remember the fellow TWer who has brought him up a few times, but Leipzig's Nagelsmann would be incredible to land. But given their meteoric rise the past several years, I'm not sure a step sideways (or worse, down) is what he's looking for in his career. But the allure of the EPL is strong, so dare to dream?

Ancelotti...honestly I don't know. Despite 50% of the birth certificates in my family tree noting Naples as place of birth, I know nothing about him lol. I have watched some Napoli over the past couple years, but they seemed to have run out of gas this year.

Both you & Mike G; if Favre from Dortmund is to be sacked as has been rumored, he'd be an excellent choice IMO as well. You want to talk a front foot approach? He's your man. They don't play much defense though haha.

Steve Ferns
134 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:23:06
Mike, like Silva, Kovac had never worked with players like this before. You can imagine the egos on the guys earning £100,000+ a week.

When Moyes came into Everton and was faced with a similar problem, ie Ginola, Gascoigne, Blomqvist, and Ferguson, he was able to bounce the first three out the door and get something out of the latter.

Silva would no doubt love for us to bounce the badly performing big earners out the door, but on the wages they are on, there is no takers.

The next manager will have the exact same problem, only this time he will have some of Silva's players to bounce out as well. Therefore, it is essential that Brands finds a manager who is what Silva should have been and so has the players he needs already.

Steve Ferns
135 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:25:18
Mark, I mentioned Nagelsmann when we were getting Silva in. My preferred 3 were Sarri, Silva and Nagelsmann.

Mark, the point about Ancelotti is the criticism he got from his players at Bayern. After he left, they said how they had to put on extra sessions in the park to be as fit as they wanted to be, and were trying to do the things Guardiola had them doing. The Germans were pretty scathing about the Italian's methods.

Don't get me wrong, I think Ancelotti is an excellent manager for Chelsea, Real, Juve, or some other top club. He can handle the egos and ensure you win the trophies. He is great at tactics and is calm in game and will win you games.

Everton need a coach to work with younger players and to make them better. It's a long term project and requires hard work and good coaching to drag us up the table. Ancelotti does not fit that profile.

Rick Tarleton
136 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:25:30
I don't miss the point at all, Darren. Managers all care, their salary and livelihood is at stake, but a manager's past affiliation is neither here nor there. Very few Premier League managers have had a playing affiliation with the club they manage.
I've got almost seventy years of supporting Everton, I care deeply as does everyone on this site, but it gives me no special power to manage the club. The same is true of ex- players, what matters isn't their degree of Evertonness, but their ability to coach and motivate the players. Arteta may be an excellent choice, he may have learned all Guardiola's knowledge, if he'd come, I'd be delighted. However, the fact that at one time he played for us is totally irrelevant.
I fear he'd prefer Arsenal. Players tend not to be sentimental about clubs, they go to where they are better paid and where they can gain the most kudos
Seb Niemand
137 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:26:21
Ask yourself this. If Arteta had played for Liverpool, would anyone be talking about him for this job? He is exactly the kind of bright, flashy, no track record mistake we have been making since we got lucky with Moyes all those years ago. The only reason anyone talks about him was he is perceived as ''one of us".

Avoid, avoid avoid. We need someone with a few calluses and some dirt under their nails. But not Fat Sam again.

Mike Gaynes
138 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:26:57
Mark #133, Dortmund's the club I follow in Germany, and yes, Favre definitely doesn't coach defense, doesn't even value it. They were down 0-3 at home to the bottom club on Saturday before coming back to 3-3 and being howled off the pitch.

We'd be a hell of a lot more fun to watch under Favre, but he would also give our fan base mass heart attacks. I think not.

Bill Gienapp
139 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:34:35
I know most want to see us hire a proven winner, but it's worth noting that a resume doesn't guarantee anything. There were many on here who were fuming that West Ham got Pellegrini - a guy who'd actually won the Premier League before - and he's done a worse job than Silva has.
Mark Guglielmo
140 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:39:25
Steve @135 I wasn't here! You could be making up what you said re: Nagelsmann! ;-)

I hadn't yet started watching Bayern when Ancelotti was there, so I couldn't really say, but your comment doesn't surprise me. I don't really know why Italian managers seem to struggle more often than not outside of Italy. tbf though, Bundesliga & Serie A are light years apart in terms of general style.

edit: oh! And Steve, don't be so sure re: player wages. Bayern makes up for smaller transfer fees with insane weekly wages. They're more interested in KEEPING the players they target to buy.

Mike G @138, I watched that game (I watch all Dortmund matches, along w/ Bayern & Leipzig), and believe me, I was rooting for Paderborn lol.

Mal van Schaick
141 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:40:52
Howe no. Arteta no. At this rate ring Sandra and see if Harry free, she fed up of burnt crumpets.
Darren Hind
142 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:41:02
I couldnt disagree more Rick

They do not care as much.

Their salary is not at stake. They know they will get paid for the duration of their contract no matter how badly they may fail - Koeman, Martinez and Allardyce all insisted on collecting their pound of flesh despite failing miserably.

No body should be ruled out because he as played for this club in the past. If that attitude had prevailed in the sixties, eighties and Nineties, we'd have won four less titles, three less FA cups and one less ECWC and been to a lot fewer finals

The trophy haul we have netted with ex players in charge verses the big fat zilch we have won with non blues in charge would support that view

Bill Gienapp
143 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:49:36
Brian (82) - for the record, I suspect it was Keane that Silva didn't rate coming in. I fully think the plan was for Mina and Zouma to be his new centre-back pairing (Mina even spoke about Silva calling him and personally lobbying him to come to Everton)... but Mina got hurt and Keane elevated his game, so the situation changed.
Robin Cannon
144 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:50:48
Some of this conversation follows a frustrating pattern;

"We need to take a risk, but it's too risky to take a risk right now, so we need a safe pair of hands so that we can take a risk at the end of the season."

Arteta would be both a coup and a risk.

Any managerial appointment is a risk. We should pursue the risk with what we guess is a high potential reward.

It should be less a question of which particular individual people want as manager, and more about having a robust, considered, clear process and strategy for hiring. That Brands, Moshiri, BK, whoever the decision making committee is, are united on what they want to see in a new manager and what they want the club to achieve.

And we can do all of those things right, and it can still not work. That, honestly, appears to have been the case with Silva.

If we hire a "safe pair of hands" it's a) not actually safe, and b) prioritizing short-term mediocrity over long-term potential. We're also not in the position to go out and hire some world-renowned name with a vast record of success behind them.

So our best option seems to be to bet on potential; whether that potential be the murmurings of real talent in someone completely untested (Arteta model), or providing an opportunity to someone succeeding at a "smaller" club who might take things further with our squad (Howe model).

Rick Tarleton
145 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:52:41
We'll have to agree to disagree, Darren. I believe only us fans truly care. Managers and players are essentially mercenaries. Rooney's Evertonness disappeared with the chance of glory and higher wages at United.
Anyhow, let us hope Everton find someone who can recruit, coach and motivate our team. I'm not sure who we'll recruit if we get rid of Silva, those whom I'd really like aren't available or interested, so it may well be another compromise.
Steve Ferns
146 Posted 25/11/2019 at 19:55:53
Bill, I think you are right. Silva likes a "lighthouse" to use Darren's word! He likes massive centre backs and would have wanted some pace as he wants to play a very highline.

Robin, I think Moyes would be a risk. I don't see him having an impact on the likes of Richarlison. Imagine him trying to explain defensive duties. He's more likely to get Big Vic out of early retirement to show Kean how it's done and bring Baines back and push Digne into left midfield.

Lyndon Lloyd
147 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:01:05
Seb (137), I was going to address this in response to an earlier comment further up the thread. I can't speak for anyone else but for me Arteta's past association with Everton is merely a bonus and I avoided labouring the "Blue blood" angle in the piece for that reason.

He has to be the best-qualified untried coach out there; his history with the Blues is just coincidental.

Paul Tran
148 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:04:41
Darren, I'd never rule anyone out because they are/aren't a blue. You're good enough or you're not. That's it.

Mike #132 Fine. Make Cahill a consultant. Call him what you like. That mindset of his needs to be used. It's worth more than a thousand badges.

Steve Ferns
149 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:09:12
Lyndon, his history with the blues matters for two reasons:

1. He might be persuaded to take the job, which most managers would do well to swerve.

2. The fans would back him in a different way to they would if he was say, Thierry Henry (but with no managerial experience). He will have unconditional goodwill and support for the foreseeable. He would get patience other managers would have to earn.

Lyndon Lloyd
150 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:12:35
Agreed, Steve (149). What I meant was his history with us has nothing to do with how I would assess his potential purely as a manager. Those facets you mention would undoubtedly help him settle in but it's his ability as a coach that will see him succeed or fail in the long run.
Don Alexander
151 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:17:22
I might be alone in this but Arteta has played with a comparatively way more successful squad than us when he left, with way better players, and then worked under Pep who's only ever worked for clubs right at the top of their respective leagues, with mega-bucks to spend as well.

Where is the evidence from that history of him being able to galvanise a club that now has way less spendability than in recent seasons, with a still bloated squad comprising way too many can't-be-arsed players, and innumerable Chairman's faves all still employed all the way through the club regardless of results season after season etc etc etc?

Steve Ferns
152 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:18:21
For sure Lyndon.

I think we should remember that three coaches made Arteta who he is. Guardiola of course (although he never played for him), Wenger, and Moyes. Imagine if Arteta was able to combine the best of those three?

Arteta was at Everton for 6 years, all under Moyes. Do we really think he didn't learn the art of defending or he's forgot it all? It'll be there. Whether he can adapt Guardiola's coaching to include some of the Moyes stuff is the question.

How good he will be no one knows. But with no ideal candidate out there, why not gamble?

Jamie Crowley
153 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:23:47
Don -

The way you phrase the situation in your second paragraph, Jesus Christ couldn't save us from relegation, and he's in the saving business.

We have a Club that has more than supported its manager. We have a Club that has talented players. We have a Club that has some very talented youngsters. We have a Club that a manager with footballing nous, and half a brain, could easily rocket up the table.

Whether Mikel Arteta is that man or not, we may or may never know.

But I know someone can turn this ship around. And if we decide it's time for Mikel Arteta to step up to the Big Leagues now, I think he can. He can't do any worse than the fella who's miraculously still employed as manager of EFC.

Mark Guglielmo
154 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:24:31
Don @151 where's the evidence that he can't?
Darren Hind
155 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:24:57

How long does he persevere with Mina? He cost us a goal at S/H with a really poor free header.

Only a top-class save from Pickford got him out of the shit when he was left for dead after being caught in a coma on Saturday and two piss-weak tackles let directly to Norwich scoring both their goals.

Keep expecting him to get better but it's not happening.

Mark Guglielmo
156 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:30:20
Darren, where did Mina enter the conversation?

But since he has...Mina was maybe the 3rd-most person at fault in that debacle. Holgate fucked up not once, but twice (originating misplayed header directly to Pukki's feet; then botching the first tackle attempt forcing Mina to be drawn in and out of position), but the most egregiously disgusting aspect of the play was Schneiderlin eating popcorn while Cantwell - the man he was supposed to be marking - ran by him like the ice cream man truck was camped out in the penalty area.

Anyway, c'mon Arteta!

Kristian Boyce
157 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:32:16
So I don't know if any of you have looked at the results of the previous poll results from TW, but they make interesting reading:

October 2017 Should Everton relieve Ronald Koeman of his managerial duties in the wake of the poor start to the season?

No 23%
Yes 77%

May 2016 Who would be your preferred choice to succeed Roberto Martinez?

Rafael Benitez 4%
Marcelo Bielsa 3%
Frank de Boer 25%
Philip Cocu 1%
Unai Emery 5%
Lucien Favre 1%
Ronald Koeman 18%
Joachim Low 4%
Jose Mourinho 31%
Manuel Pellegrini 8%

Seeing as the current poll has Silva out at 88%, a far worse position than the end of Koeman's tenure. It's also amusing to see a few names linked to the job this time around.

Kristian Boyce
158 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:35:24
Oh, I missed the best one of the lot:

November 2017 Would Sam Allardyce be the right appointment as Everton manager to replace Ronald Koeman?

Yes 20%
No 80%

Denis Richardson
159 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:40:54
Steve 104 - sorry but you don’t make any sense, give it up.

By your logic we should discard anyone older than 60 because ‘they can’t get any better’. Firstly that is one of the most idiotic comments I’ve read here as it implies that people over 60 are unable to learn anything new or improve.

Secondly, following your logic, care to explain how Ranieri won the league - at age 65? That was his first major trophy in a managerial career btw, spanning around 30 years.

Jay Harris
160 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:45:40

You make a very compelling case for Arteta and he would be on my list too along with Ancelotti, Ten Hag and Pochetino.

Think big,dream big and act big!!

Ed Prytherch
161 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:46:37
We have to take a risk sooner or later as no world class coach is coming to Goodison in the near term. Of course Arteta is a risk and I believe he is a good risk. I also think that now would be a great time to him to come. Expectations would be low for the rest of the season, particularly between now and Christmas and the pressure would be off him while he finds his feet. I hope that we are talking to him, his agent, Man City, whoever.

The alternative of a boring mid table coach is just putting off the real decision. Let's be bold and go for it now.
Darren Hind
162 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:49:33
Just had another look. Holgate did not head the ball, it didnt reach him. the Norwich player did. Mina made a piss-weak tackle for the first goal and an even worse one for the second leaving Holgate with the option to bring the player down and get sent off or hope Pickford saved it.

The last three goals we have conceded were all Mina mistakes. Only a brilliant save from Pickford stopped it being four. His defending at corners has been abysmal all season. Silva may like his "Lighthouses" but they will cost him his job

Steve Ferns
163 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:54:19
Denis, Sarri is improving and he’s 60. But he’s been on an upward trajectory for some time now.

Lucien Favre has a long body of work and there’s nothing in his 26 year career to suggest he’s suddenly going to improve to the extent he would need to in order to bring success to Everton.

Andy Walker
164 Posted 25/11/2019 at 20:59:37
No. No. No.
Ray Robinson
165 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:11:19
Our problem seems to be that Silva needs replacing immediately but we need to choose someone with a good track record in order to mimimise the chances of yet another duff manager. Delay acting and Moshiri gets criticised, make another hasty, panic decision and he gets criticism. Given the realistic choices available at the moment, an interim manager might actually be most sensible approach. Moyes though? Heaven forbid!
Jamie Crowley
166 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:13:53
Jay @ 160 -

Ten Hag keeps a relatively low profile in these discussions. Probably because we'll never get him.

But if we were going to splash silly money on Rafa, I'd far, far prefer it were spent on a manager like Ten Hag.

If Erik Ten Hag came to Everton, I think our problems would be over, and the future would be blindingly bright. I've done a lot of reading about the guy the last few weeks, and I've been really impressed. He'd be my number one choice.

But I think his next move will be to a larger club. Painful, but true.

If you Google this:
there's a few stories out there a month or so ago saying we were looking into him. Hold to hope.

Raymond Fox
167 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:22:13
Your forgetting one thing about Arteta becoming our manager, would he want the job!
He's had two nice little earners and is sitting pretty in second in command at the best club in Brittain at the moment who rarely get beaten.

He's a former player but if he doesn't get the desired results the bear pit that Goodison has become will turn against him soon enough.
I am against offering him the job, but I have to concede that there are very few other alternatives who I would feel happy with.
Benitez would probably be the safest pair of hands but its long odds he would now come to Goodison.

As usual the club has found itself in a mini / major crisis -take your pick, which you have to put down to incompetance with a small amount of bad luck thrown in.
Problem is I have little confidence that the decision making will get any better!

James Marshall
168 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:23:42
Guardiola says its not happening. Also, why on earth would Arteta want to be our manager when he's sitting pretty at City?

Pie in the sky.

Craig Harrison
169 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:33:45
What about giving Martin Oneil a shot. British, knows the game and players and has reasonable success in the past
Mark Guglielmo
170 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:34:49
Jamie @166 I know you're ignoring me lol but like a gnat I'm gonna keep flying around your head :-D. How would ten Heg solve the immediate issue of you wanting Silva gone?

James @168, did he? Do you have a link to a story or something? Last thing I read was simply an article in the Echo talking about how Pep said that he's absolutely ready to take on a manager role.

Drew O'Neall
171 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:35:12
I like the idea of ‘Mi-kel Ar-tet-a!!’ ringing from all corners of the ground unbroken for ten minutes solid following his introduction to show these overpaid prima-donnas in no uncertain terms who the fans are behind and that they have not met the required standard.
Drew O'Neall
172 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:39:50
What’s Usmanov’s mate; Guus Hiddink, up to? He is the only elite manager we may be able to attract, albeit on a temporary basis.
Tony Abrahams
173 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:49:15
Haven’t watched any of the game again Darren, but I thought Holgate was shocking throughout the whole of the second half on Saturday mate.

He went back to his early form of last season imo, got lost, got bullied, but defenders need their mates, and Mason and Mina, were so far away from each other at times that it was ridiculous.

I’ve wanted Holgate in the team, but honestly don’t think we can find a pairing between the three of them at present, and the fact that Silva hasn’t tried to play the three of them, preferring Schneiderlin to cover them instead, is one of a number of things I can’t understand about Marco Silva.

I will be accused of that old chestnut-again off some, but I’m only looking at the squad and trying to get the best out of them, and anyone who watches Everton, can’t tell me that our fullbacks, don’t push up like wing-backs at times anyway?

This system would also enable us to play two upfront, and its also patently obvious that we don’t have a player who can really excel playing as an isolated striker?

I’ve said it before the switch of play looks pretty, but it never really results in an attack for us, and unless the ball goes forward and into the box, all’s it’s doing is leaving our “one striker” 50 yards from the fucking ball, in fact, ARE YOU STILL FUCKING HERE SILVA?

Mike Gaynes
174 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:50:55
Drew, you're not gonna believe this, but ol' Guus is managing the Chinese national U-23 team. At age 73.

Conor McCourt
175 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:55:38
Great piece Lyndon- bring our boy home.
To those of you that keep talking about risk there is no more risk than any other manager coming.
To those of you arguing there is no proof he can do it I can give you the names of many who can't.
This as I said yesterday would galvanise our club and bring it back to the people.
We would most likely play with that City tempo and he would know about getting the stadium buzzing.

Drew O Neal- best point I've ever heard on Tweb. Our players will find out what a Legend of ours sounds like and see what you need to be one.

Mark Guglielmo
176 Posted 25/11/2019 at 21:56:59
Darren, perhaps you can see something I can't, but here you go:

All you need to do is pause it at 0:02 and it's pretty clear that it's Holgate heading it, setting off the chain reaction. Mistake #1.

Paul Birmingham
177 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:00:30
For me, one day perhaps after Mikel has done his time. Not all fine players make good footballer managers as we know and not many good managers win silverware.

For me it’s got to be a proven winner but that door may not open.

As long as we don’t go for Hughes or Ginger Gollum, both of whom are in football terms, relics of by gone times.

It’s going to be interesting times. I can’t see this team causing an upset at Leicester and that could be the curtain on Marco Silvas time at Everton.

The spirit and spark, barely lit at the start of the season and the pilot light has failed in all games.

Time for a change, but how ambitious is the Everton board?

John G Davies
178 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:02:50
I think this job is a poisoned chalice to top managers. That leaves us with second/third tier to select from. If it's to be an ex player, and the choice would look to be between Arteta and Cahill, I would take Timmy every time.

I think there is an issue with coaching badges. That would be surmountable though. The next option is to find the next big manager before he becomes a top manager.

In England I believe Scott Parker at Fulham will go on to be a top manager, this job probably comes around too early for him this time.

Money would probably talk for Ten Hag or any of the up and coming Bundesliga managers, any of them would double or even treble their wages by becoming Everton manager. Time will tell.
Brent Stephens
179 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:03:49
Tony can’t disagree when you say Holgate was shocking. Missed challenge on the wing. Followed immediately by missed challenge more centrally. One man involved in both.
Raymond Fox
180 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:06:47
Sounds good Conor, we are just missing the small matter of the City players.
Pat Kelly
181 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:17:49
Come on over Mikel. Bill's still got your money.
Mike Gaynes
182 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:24:47
Ring-fenced, right, Pat?
Pat Kelly
183 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:26:29
It's just been resting in his account Mike.
Christy Ring
184 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:30:26
I believe the club should make an approach for Arteta, before Arsenal come calling. All the talk about, why would he leave a cushy number at City, for Everton? The biggest reason of all, he'd be the boss, No.1.
Conor McCourt
185 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:36:21
Christy knowing our hierarchy we are just waiting until he signs his contract with Arsenal the we will make our move.
Raymond Fox
186 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:41:57
With all due respects chaps, I've more chance of being Arsenal manager than Arteta.
Derek Knox
187 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:44:17
Tony @ 173, good point there regarding Holgate and the Mina partnership, and admittedly after showing promise in his previous games, he reverted to detritus for most of the game.

One observation I did make from behind the sofa, that another player Sidibe, who also had shown such promise in previous games was often found totally out of position when it came to his defensive role, and so slow to get back after an another unproductive forward foray.

Getting back to the Arteta possibility, now I appreciate there is a gamble involved, but no more than any other Manager for that matter, but I feel it is one that would be worth risking, with Cahill possibly being recruited on completion of his badges.

Or am I just that desperate like most of us are to see the back of Silva? Would Arteta come? Please let us hope so, I am getting filled with expectation at the very thought of it.

Maybe I am making hopeful connections, reminiscent of the Kendall Mk1/Harvey successful blueprint!

Brian Hennessy
188 Posted 25/11/2019 at 22:45:44
The way we are playing at the moment I would take Arteta off City as a player for us never mind a manager.

On a serious note, of all the realistic candidates being mentioned, Arteta would be my choice. I just hope the silence out of the club over the last 48 hours means that Silva's days are numbered.

If Arteta can't be delivered before the weekend, i'd settle for Unsworth on a temporary basis.

David Pearl
189 Posted 25/11/2019 at 23:08:07
Derek, I’m waiting anxiously for the ToffeeWeb next manager poll. I hope they don’t wait for Silva to be sacked. Actually there should be a poll as to who we want in charge for the Leicester game.
Amanda Holden
Eddie Howe
Steve Ferns
Any Ex Redshite
Don Alexander
190 Posted 25/11/2019 at 23:23:45
There's a few proper tits in there David (#189).
David Pearl
191 Posted 25/11/2019 at 23:27:53
Not wrong there Don :)
Derek Knox
192 Posted 25/11/2019 at 23:33:25
David @ 189, lol, at least you haven't lost your sense of humour amid all this hesitancy and uncertainty!
Jim Harrison
193 Posted 25/11/2019 at 23:52:53
Can’t believe comments about managers not wanting to come because the squad isn’t good enough. Add a cB and a striker and it’s a really good bunch.

Any manager would struggle after losing their entire first choice midfield to injury. But it is reasonable to expect better than what Silva is achieving even with a depleted squad. A change in formation to account for not having the resources to play the way you want.
These players have been part of the team that strung together a great run at the end of last season during which they convincingly put in displays against teams at both ends of the table. At the beginning of the season most fans were excited about a top 6 push, because on paper it’s a good squad. But once you take out Gomes, Delph, Gbamin and Bernard it looks a lot weaker

Maybe Arteta could be the one? But how can we judge him? He has worked for the best coach in the world with some of the best players who n the world for 3 and a half years. He maybe an ex player who “understands “ the club, but he also kissed the Arsenal badge after scoring against us!

There are not many viable options out there otherwise. I don’t think Benitez would want to work under a DOF, the past two Ajax managers to try their luck haven’t done so well.
With no one obvious standing out I reckon they will stick with Silva a while longer, but with a bit of a rocket up his arse. Maybe he needs to being in a new assistant

Tamhas Woods
194 Posted 26/11/2019 at 01:10:45
The brutal truth is that Everton need a manager to get the club out of the Championship next year.

I am telling you now, Davies aside - and possibly Delph - there is not one person with the passion, resilience or flat out desire to keep Everton in this division.

15 points after 19 games would, to my knowledge, be Everton's worst first half to a PL season. Irredeemable, surely, when we consider that they had more on the board at the same point in 1997/98.

The club's long top-flight history is irrelevant. Do you really think one single person in the city is going to care that Everton spend 130+ years in the top flight, when Liverpool are ruling the world - on the pitch, on the telly and in the corporate world?

The key now is to forget a star name. Pochettino can't save this situation, and Moyes is yesterday's man.

There are now only three options, if the club wants a manager to stay loyal even after the drop next May. They are Howe, Benitez and Arteta.

Take your pick, but there is nobody else other than those who would stay after May.

Jamie Crowley
195 Posted 26/11/2019 at 01:45:46
Tamhas -

If that's the only three we can get, and I'm not convinced it is but I'll go with it, put me down for Arteta.

A bang average manager, a fat Spanish waiter who's insulted the club, or someone who's learned under two of the best, knows the club, and the up side is large.

Roll the dice and go with Arteta when given the choice of those three.

Jay Harris
196 Posted 26/11/2019 at 01:57:12

Add a couple of lads out of Gwladys Street End for that list because they would do a better job than Silva.

I would also add Ancelotti to any list and hopefully he will bring Koulibaly with him,

Jerome Shields
197 Posted 26/11/2019 at 02:30:16
Arteta would be a gamble. He has no experience managing a team on his own bat I and making changes at Everton would be hampered by the fact he a good old boy. In my opinion, he would be unsuitable for the challenge of manager of Everton. I can see how he would be a fanciful choice, but wishful thinking will not get the job done.
Darren Hind
198 Posted 26/11/2019 at 02:32:42
I think those who were praising Mina to the roof tops before they had the chance to see him play a run of games are trying desperately hard to be right. Its really telling that they are They are trying to exonerate him again after THAT performance.
First of all they blamed Keane now they are blaming Holgate.

Mina made to powder puff challenges for BOTH goals. Why he deserted his post to charge out for that half arsed challenge for the second goal is beyond me. Not only did he leave the center wide open. he made it difficult for Holgate (facing his own goal). He was the one facing the oppositon goal and if you have played the game you will know it is HIS responsibility to clear it. He screams. He puts his name on it.
I've watched it with three different commentators now and all three praise the Norwich guy for his header. Yet we've got one guy blaming Holgate for "mssing the challenge on the wing" and another saying he was the one who headed it. Mina's apologists can even agree with each other.

I know he has an exotic sounding name (often enough for some on here) but the big South American is the one common denominator in a central defence which has stunk grounds out up and down the country.

The alarm bells rang for me when he was left for dead when caught day dreaming in the first half - again.

If he isn't misjudging the flight of the ball he is standing staring at it, Unless he is in a a show-of-strength tussle his tackling he is piss weak (two more glaring examples on Saturday) When he gets free headers, He heads it with his ear (Southampton being a perfect example)..He is racking up the clangers and we are plummeting down the league.
But hey, He shakes his fists at the crowd. Lets keep turning a blind eye and blaming everyone else.. . oh and he once scored against the mighty England.

Jerome Shields
199 Posted 26/11/2019 at 02:36:47
I agree, Darren, regarding Mina's performance.
Andrew Dempsey
200 Posted 26/11/2019 at 04:38:09
Do you not like Mina then, Darren?
Paul A Smith
201 Posted 26/11/2019 at 07:31:46
Tony Abraham, Holgate was poor mate. Looked like the erratic kid we saw him as before his loan.

That 5 a side challenge he tried with his trailing leg thrown out behind him was horrendous viewing for a premiership defender.

John G Davies
202 Posted 26/11/2019 at 08:11:59
Paul A.

The worst one in recent weeks from Holgate was the recent defending that cost us a goal when he showed an opposition player onto his stronger foot on the edge of the box, which resulted in a free shot and goal.

The lad has got a mistake a game in him unfortunately.

Darren Hind
203 Posted 26/11/2019 at 08:22:47
And still the confirmation bias blinds people to whats in right in front of them.

Mina was appalling and quite literally turns his back for one goal. . but hey lets blame Holgate. He did/didnt win a header that led up to the goal.

Rather than try to deflect the blame onto the guy who came through the ranks (as per usual) I want somebody to come on here and say categorically. that if Mina had done his job we would still have conceded the last three goals.
I want those in denial to come on and tell everyone he was not at fault for any of those goals. . lets see if any of the Mina apologists are prepared to make that claim.


I have nothing against Mina personally. What I object to is this constant denial when he fucks uo. It is ALWAYS someone elses fault.

Andrew Dempsey
204 Posted 26/11/2019 at 08:39:31
I think defending is poor in general, all over the globe.
It’s why someone like Van Dijk stands out so much, and even he has lapses and makes mistakes sometimes. Quite a few actually.
To get away with this regularly, you need a great goalkeeper and a reliable source of goals at the other end, and many other things, none of which we’ve got.
Holgate (who came through the ranks at Barnsley) can look lackadaisical sometimes and make basic errors, so can Mina, so can most in the league.

Jonny Evans might probably be the most reliable centre back going (and let’s hope this solidity helps Leicester win the League), and I agree, we should get rid of Mina, but also Holgate too, in fact all our central defenders need replacing with players more of the profile of Evans.
As for right now, Mina has to play because who else is going to?

Tony Abrahams
205 Posted 26/11/2019 at 08:41:06
I think both Mina and Holgate have been doing okay Darren, but nobody got more than a 3/10 on Saturday, possibly Digne, because he was the only one who looked like he was really trying to play, whereas everyone else just disappeared into a shell.

Sigurdsson kept trying, but he was dreadful, and I thought that maybe the halftime booing affected Holgate, because he was okay in the first half, but his game totally went in the second half.

Who’d be a defender in this set up though? The gap between Holgate and Mina, for the first Norwich goal, would not be accepted on a Sunday morning imo, so I’d give everyone connected equal blame, whilst questioning the professionalism of everyone sitting in the dugout, because who could genuinely put their name to such amateurism?

Darren Hind
206 Posted 26/11/2019 at 08:55:17
I agree with most of that Andrew except Holgate came through the Barnsley ranks. The hardly have any. We got him as a teenager and he played for our junior teams before coming though to the first team at an unusually young age for a centre-half.

I don't think we should get rid of him either. We are asked to be patient with Mina (even though he has played all season... but we should get rid of Holgate after his first few games back as centre-half because people think he has had a poor half?

We are not in the position to allow young potential like Holgate to leave, just as we are not in the position to accommodate Mina's errors.

You are most definitely right about the overall standard of defending, everywhere. It used to be considered an art.

Andrew Dempsey
207 Posted 26/11/2019 at 09:28:12
Technically, we did get Holgate as a teenager, yes, he was 18 years old, and he turned 19 soon after we bought him.
He came through the youth ranks at Barnsley, I live in South Yorkshire. Barnsley, Rotherham and Doncaster have all got great youth systems.
Barnsley, of course, produced that Titan of central defending, John Stones.
And, I remember at the time folks round here talking about Mason Holgate, a young player they were very excited about, and thought was probably better than Stones.
So, you’re gonna have to back down on that one. He was at Barnsley from age 9 to age 18, I think that classifies as coming through the ranks.
As for him becoming a great defender, I’m willing to admit I might be wrong about that and you might be right, you never know.
Tony Abrahams
208 Posted 26/11/2019 at 09:33:15
Does anyone really practice the art of defending anymore though? It won’t be long before it comes back into fashion, because it’s much to important to neglect, which is what a lot of these modern coaches seem to be doing at the minute. What the fuck happened to the saying, “play in there half?”
Tony Abrahams
209 Posted 26/11/2019 at 09:45:43
Is there many Yorkshire lads doing well at the higher levels of English football right now Andrew?

I used to enjoy playing against the Yorkshire sides when I played because they reminded me of scousers the way they could really dig in, and this is what Wilder definitely seems to have instilled into Sheff Utd at the moment.

Football is like life, it’s easy when it’s easy, but when it’s not you need to stand up for yourself and keep battling away, and this is why I left Goodison feeling absolutely numb on Saturday night, because No fight = No chance, and this is what’s worrying me the most.

Andrew Dempsey
210 Posted 26/11/2019 at 10:40:05
Well, there is the most expensive defender in the world - Harry Maguire.
Can’t be too bright though, had a great partnership with J. Evans and couldn’t see the potential of what Rodgers was trying to do with the exciting bunch of players they’ve got at Leicester.
Delph is West Yorkshire through and through, and seems like a great lad to me.
I’ll keep my ear to the ground, not heard of any emerging superstars lately.
Tony Abrahams
211 Posted 26/11/2019 at 10:50:34
Only a few Andrew, but they back up my point about being able to dig-in, and I have also got Holgate down in the same bracket.

Holgate has been doing a lot better but his concentration definitely went on Saturday, and once this goes especially in a team without any leaders, then it usually goes from bad to worse, and this was unfortunately the case on Saturday.

It looks like Silva is going nowhere just yet, and with the next couple of fixtures including Anfield then I’m very worried because I’ve never seen his team ever really dig-in

Matthew Williams
212 Posted 26/11/2019 at 13:24:09
When you need a new Gaffer...start with Jocks or Geordie's then work down the map.

When you need new players...start with local Scouse lads then work outwards.

Alex Neil for me first and foremost,then recall all our loan players as fast as possible.

Sorted...sadly Kenwright will only leave Goodison in a box (wooden type).

Kirk McArdle
213 Posted 26/11/2019 at 13:43:36
There should only be one name on the list. Max Allegri.

For all the money that Moshiri seems to have wasted, not just hiring and firing two permanent, one caretaker and one potentially in the next week or so, just go and get the best available out there.

He has spent close to half a billion pounds on this squad, which some have been grossly overpaid for, but none-the-less should be good enough to challenge for a European place.

Will Allegri work for £70K a week. No. Closer to £200 - £250K that he was on at Juventus but there is no compensation to pay for him or his backroom team.

Lets go with £250K x 52 weeks x 3.5 years works out to just over £45M. Less than we paid for Siggi and in my opinion would be better value for money.

52, learnt English, tactically astute, varies formations and adapts during games.

Time for the ambition of the owner & board to go and sell a proper (I hate the term but) project to a serial winner.

Darren Hind
214 Posted 26/11/2019 at 13:50:24

When you say "technically" we got Holgate as a teenager, you really mean "factually", don't you?

I too know Barnsley. They invited my eldest over a few times before passing him over. They are not a Premier lleague team and anyone who signs professionally is one injury away from being thrown in.

Holgate was in the first team almost before the ink was dry. My factual point about him coming through the Everton ranks still stands – sorry won't be backing down on that.

I remember one of his first games was against a Liverpool junior team. Me and a few others were streaming the game and were buzzing about his composure and natural footballing ability on the old live forum.

I spoke only of him as a professional, not a school child, but when I was looking for his age a couple of weeks back, I too read on Wikki (just as you have done today) that he had been with Barnsley since he was 9.

Mark Guglielmo
215 Posted 26/11/2019 at 14:00:11
Hi Darren, you can name me when you make comments about other posters in the thread, I don't mind.

I believe you're conflating me also assigning blame to Holgate (and Schneiderlin, who somehow has escaped your wrath) as me saying Mina was blameless. That's not what I said, or meant, at worst. However, in the same way you're criticizing others for "giving a Mina a pass" or whatever, you're doing the same thing by shining a spotlight on Mina as if he was the only guy on the field.

As for the 2nd goal, maybe you missed Sigurdsson's letter-perfect assist on that play?

Brent Stephens
216 Posted 26/11/2019 at 14:51:32
Holgate was with Barnsley from age 9 to age ???
Andrew Dempsey
218 Posted 27/11/2019 at 04:12:42
Jesus Christ, Darren.

You win, ok. You win.
But, you are wrong about something.
I’m just not going to tell you what that something is, so you can’t respond to it.

Alan J Thompson
219 Posted 27/11/2019 at 05:26:08
I wouldn't mind Arteta getting the gig at the start of a season but if he was appointed right now who would form his staff or would he have to work with Unsworth and Ferguson as assistants? Not too sure that any new new boy would want to work with the last failure's people and would anyone at City think his leaving only pushes them up another rung? We really do need a Manager who hits the ground running that is, concerns himself with the onfield rather than off-field matters.
Adrian evans
220 Posted 27/11/2019 at 11:26:42
Everyone get real. The next five matches, points say we are relegation stuff. A squad of four managers, owners having football decisions. Get Rafa in now.

If the unthinkable did happen, he won the Championship first time of asking; we ain't too big to go down. Moshiri, and Kenwright will be to blame if we do.

What is the board doing making big football decisions? Rafa can win the Championship first time. I hope he doesn't need to.

January window says he gets a No 9 with goals in him. Clean sheets and we stay up.

Arteta in the Championship... Howe... Moyes – we'd be there for ever. A foreign manager who doesn't even know the Championship... Plan for the worst in our position and hope for the best. Get Rafa in now, whatever it costs.

Seb Niemand
221 Posted 30/11/2019 at 13:24:09
A gamble. An unacceptable gamble.

No track record, saloon run at the best club in the country, no stated vision, nothing to suggest he has the winning mentality we need.

Face it, no-one would be talking about him if he hadn't played for the club. He's just another one of the shiny bright young things Farhad Moshiri does so love to collect and toss aside when he realises he has brought dross thinking it was brass.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.

About these ads

© ToffeeWeb