Unchartered waters and difficult decisions

If we as paying customers accept whatever is handed down to us without regard to the fact that football is supposed to be a sporting contest, which has to have an outright winner even if that means using goal difference or head-to-head results but it cannot and should not be decided by what some administrators or TV moguls might regard as being pragmatic and fair, no matter how challenging the circumstances may be.

VAR has already ruined this season for many match going fans, handing a yet to be won title to a club that hasn't visited Goodison Park is for me a step too far.

As for promotion and relegation, no team in the league is actually doomed at this point, and no team in the championship has actually earned promotion. So my best guess is that they would simply launch again in August with the teams positioned in the same league as they are now.

And Bill, you certainly won’t have to worry about the *. The red fans will never get to properly celebrate their title. No on field trophy presentation, no parade, no cheers. That * will be indelible. In everybody’s memory.

I'm also very confident that they wouldn't accept Everton becoming champions in similar circumstances.

Write it all off and re-do it in August, same teams, same fixture or new, I'm not bothered.

Also, If there are no Premier League 'winners' or relegated teams, I don't see how there can be a 'winner' and a 2nd place promoted from the Championship... and so on ad infinitum.

It's a dilemma. I can see the Premier League fudging the issue and coming up with a 'solution' that will upset many more than it pleases... but I'll risk pound each way that Liverpool name won't figure in the upset column.

Uefa need to be all over this before the money muscle of the Premier League gets in first with their decision, thus setting the precedent in favour of all the usual suspects, domestic and foreign.

Fat chance.

The rules state the season must be concluded in full and only a change can be made to this if 16 teams agree to it. It was only about 10 days ago the spiteful reds were relishing winning the league at Goodison. If the season resumes and they win at after 38 games, then fair enough.

To promote and relegate teams based on today's standings would, quite rightly, cause mayhem and untold legal challenge.

Although most of us wouldn't know it, unless you supported the "unmentionables", the world does not revolve around one Club. As much as the media would like to think.

Each league supplies entrants to UEFA competitions. If there's no consistency with each leagues approach, then well what's the point?

Look, you either finish it or you don't. No half-way measures. If you don't finish it and it's not a mathematical certainty, then tough, you cannot award one team a title or relegate someone. I did read that potentially the season can be completed if 75% of the games were played according to the premier leagues own rules. However we are not quite there, I think that potentially why the premier league were trying to get this round in? But it's just a theory.

I say see ya next season, lads.

Yes, Liverpool would almost certainly have won an uninterrupted league, but the key word here is 'almost'. They still have a few tricky fixtures (including one they would not have relished to the OL).

Sport is about upsets, jaw-dropping collapses. mind-blowing come-backs:

It's about Devon Lock inexplicably sprawling yards from the finish, as it's supporters had already lined up to be paid out.

It's about Red Rum coming from another county to collar the magnificent Crisp on the line - YouTube it if you haven't seen it.

It's about the marathon runner inexplicably emptying out in the closing stages after running his opponents ragged.

It's about the many boxers who have been beaten out of sight finding the late big punches that won them fights they were never in.

I was at Cheltenham yesterday and I witnessed a massive crowd gasp in utter disbelief as a horse with a lead every bit as commanding as the one Liverpool have crumpled on landing at the last.

I suspect The league will be handed over to Liverpool, but I will always remind every gloating gobshite that they will have been the only team in history to have won a title in an office as opposed to on the pitch. I will also point out that their mask of invincibility had been unceremoniously removed in recent weeks.

We can't stop them being "awarded" it, but we can stop them enjoying it.

I wish I'd have thought of that. Two words could have saved me typing half a dozen paragraphs.

Would it be fair if the race was paused, he was given a chance to rest and recuperate so he could sprint again when it resumed?? Of course it wouldn't! And neither would handing the title to the Red shite.

Assuming this goes on for months then for me there's two choices:

1) Play the matches behind closed doors but streamed.

2) Call it void and just start again next season.

The first option would leave those at home with unfair disadvantages vs the opposing fixture, so would never be considered just (maybe for Liverpool who are far ahead, but who knows what would have happened without this false break!!?!). There is also, of course, a small chance that this could kill a player.

Put a ‘latest' deadline in for them to resume matches now so people know where they stand, if it resumes by then just accept it. If it doesn't, just void it from memory and move on.

A final option on that may be to give point head starts to everyone next year based on current placement. Not sure how to work that fairly, but plenty of mathematicians who could model a ‘proportional' system.

Also Liverpool's winning the League is only one issue.European places? Promotion? Relegation? Play-offs? All these issues need to be sorted and so it is either complete the programme or abandon it.

They've won the league VAR and square.

Bit different.

Would we be able to sue? We missed out on two European cups, potentially three, if we had won it in 85. Due to circumstances that we had no control of.

We have suffered big time, not just revenue but loss of top class players. We have never recovered, just winning one trophy since.

Er... better to give them the flaming thing.

Should Liverpool lose all their remaining games, and Man City win all their remaining games, then Man City would be league champions.

So whilst it's still mathematically possible for them to be caught, I don't see any logical reason why they "should just be awarded the Premier League trophy".

Did all the bookies pay out on Devon Loch before the end of the 1956 Grand National, when he was miles ahead only to fall 40 yards from the end? No! Was his name engraved on the Grand National trophy before he fell, No!

So why the fuck should the Red Shite be crowned Champions? Anything can happen in the remaining games.

As some people remark on here, sport is littered with comebacks and disasters and it is an entertainment. The big issue is not whether the filth are denied or honoured, but it is that there are a number of clubs who could be seriously compromised by a lazy decision.

That notwithstanding the league is mathematically corrupt anyway – VAR has seen to that – and we are told that Brighton are the greatest beneficiaries of VAR decisions in their favour, though the filth can't be far behind, with Wolves being the team to suffer most. So, it would be only fair to scrap a truely flawed season.

Nevertheless, unless a lot of noise is made that causes a lot of money to be lost, the whole situation will be repeated over and over again. The only way to stop VAR is to stop watching and make the advertising revenue plummet. I have. I listen to Darren and Snods when I cannot physically watch Everton and have completely boycotted any live coverage provided by subscription services. I don't even watch Match of the Day.

As for the filth's current position, one can imagine the conversation of a possible Faustian pact...

'Can we be 25 points clear in March, master?'
'Yes'
'Can we be 25 points clear in April, master?'
'Yes'
'Can we be 25 points clear in May, master?'
'Yes,... Oh! Have you ever read the Monkey's Paw by W W Jacobs?'

And let's see if their after-match drink created by the American swimmer can get them out of this one?

When they ask him when, he says "1986, 87, 88, 89 and 1990." "Oh no, we never," he says, "because you got us banned from Europe."

So should the RS be awarded the Premier League without actually winning it, then we should be awarded five European cups even though we never actually won it.

Yesterday, Goshen – the favourite – was streets ahead coming to the last hurdle. The horse didn't fall but stumbled, unseating the jockey. It was actually heart-breaking to watch – especially for jockey Gary Moore and the connections.

But is that not the nature and essence of sport?

There is a finishing line that has to be crossed. No ifs or buts.

It'll happen. But, as someone said before, there should be a bloody big asterisk and refer to them as 'Champions elect' or something.

If the RS were denied their moment of glory, can you imagine the decades of Whinging and Bitching we would have to put up with?

Yes, Dick, I, and every other Blue, can imagine, and to me, their whingeing would sound like Beethoven's finest and sweetest symphony. One I'd never tire of listening to and each and, every time I heard one of them whingeing, it would bring a smile to my face and joy to my bitter Blue heart!

Scrap the season and start again “as we were” – but no need to adopt the same fixture list.

There is an article with a similar name in The Echo, there are some lovely comments from our neighbours, they show their true colours as usual. So, yes, I am with Rob and a few others... fuck the RS.

Darren #13,

I had forgotten about Esha Ness. I had money on that nag (only a couple of quid) – yet another time the bookies didn't pay me. :(

We didn't deserve to lose out because of Heysel, but lose out we did. Liverpool do not deserve to lose the title, but objectively they may well do so.

The season is not only about the title and too many issues are unresolved for the season to stand, unless it can be completed.

"Quadruple"
"Villa 5 - Liverpool 0

"Unbeaten"
Watford 3 - Liverpool 0"

"Treble"
Chelsea 2 - Liverpool 0

"Double"
Atletico 4 - Liverpool 2

"League Title"
Covid 19 - Liverpool 18

That takes us to the end of July before it is safe to resume.

This season is over, wiped out and will not recommence. The sooner the football authorities accept this and face the dire financial consequences and fans' outcry head-on, the better.

It will be a nightmare in every respect but they have no choice. They will have to find the best equitable solution after scrapping this season and starting the 20/21 season afresh.

If they award them the Premier League, it has to follow that they relegate the present bottom 3 teams. Look at the table, might be those 3 but it's still a scrap.

Similar decisions will have to made in every league.

Sorry but we have all been watching all sports, particularly footy, far too long to say it's over, until the final whistle goes.

"Come and have a look at what you coulda won..."

However grossly unfair it would be, I wouldn't put it beyond the bounds of possibility for just two more matches to be played in order to get Liverpool mathematically past the finishing post.

Don't. Just the thought of it has me pissing myself.

Things should be won on merit, and this would allow this to happen. It would mean everything is objective and not just decided arbitrarily whilst rewarding teams in all divisions for what they have done so far this season by carrying it forward.

The FA Cup could be finished, started and finished again, giving winners for each year. Scrap the League Cup and finish the Champions League and Europa League.

Makes sense but won't happen because of the money men.

Re: Darren's boxing analogy. I've never seen a fighter with an uncatchable lead with 2 rounds to go lose on points. Fighters can get KO'd; this is not a knockout competition.

Bringing up Heysel is unworthy. There were two sets of fans there btw.

The lockdown measures are not likely to reduce the number of people contracting Covid-19, just spread it out to alleviate pressure in the health system etc. If, by mid-June the number of new cases are declining then resume the season, play twice per week if necessary. No Euro 2020. Push back the start date for next season, cancel all international friendlies and the league cup. No winter break. Insert more 2-game weeks where possible. It is doable.

Failing that, resume this season next March. Voiding the season is idiocy tbh.

I'd be staggered if they void the season – the legal implications alone make it pretty much impossible.

As for the reds, I'm not happy about it but they are runaway Champions. With or without VAR, they are still Champions, hard to beat and uncatchable. It's hard for us to take as we still have to play expensive flops and Tom Davies.

In the interests of fairness, this season should be cancelled, null and void. Crowning anyone champions or relegating anyone at this stage, would be hollow. No-one has mathematically won anything, nor been relegated at this stage.

Liverpool in all likelihood would win it, but they haven't yet, and you can guarantee if it was Man Utd, Everton or just about anyone else, in their position, Liverpool fans would be screaming for a null and void season! Null and void is fair. It also is procedurally easier to administer.

However, money talks, and we as fans*, are skint!

* All football fans

Possibly a match every 2 days format in July behind closed doors to season completion, using squad players rotated. Any expiring contracts will be extended for a month or that player shamed and replaced by an U23 lad.

Financial desperation will force it to the limit of legal medical advice.

"Get a grip!"

Either that or they play over summer with perhaps game duration reduced and several games in a day. Anything but showing such blatant favouritism to one team.

They screamed and stamped their little feet until the rules were changed to allow them in, but not before they claimed that we should be replaced by them, because they were reigning Champions. The uproar was astonishing. They MUST be allowed to participate.

We all know what happened next, we get Villarreal, they get New Saints. We get Collina they get a rule change after teams had qualified.

Give them the title? Get to fuck.

I'd like to think Man Utd would kick up a fuss if they miss out on Champions League by 3 points with 9 games left. Wolves and Sheffield Utd's potentially only chance of getting into the Champions League, or the later even into the Europa League. This knock-on effect affects all leagues below. The whole season just needs to be declared null and void across the leagues.

Liverpool fans will just have to take it on the chin like we had to when "unforeseen circumstances" prevented the English champions playing in Europe in the 80s. It's taken 35 years for that swings and roundabouts to finally turn.

Man City are the only team who can still mathematically catch them, so have a one-off game between Man City and Liverpool, who still have to play each other anyway.

If Liverpool win, they can't be caught if the season ran its full course, so they would then be Champions with eight games to play. If Man City win, then scrap the season, make it null and void.

If so, would the General Committee be looking for the least-worst decision, partly in terms of various notions of fairness, more so in terms of logistics and finances etc, but mainly in terms of the legal implications?

If the decision is to be made by the General Committee, and largely on the basis of the legal implications, then would they want to avoid the variety of proposals we're already reading about which could result in major costly, lengthy and acrimonious litigation; and instead agree to declare the season over with the current standings regarded as final, with Liverpool being awarded the title (together with the other outcomes proposed in The Telegraph article re bottom three of the Premier League, top two of the Championship etc)?

I've not yet found the voting rules for the Premier League General Committee but I would imagine it would not require a unanimous vote. The Premier League clubs would presumably vote in terms of their individual best interests, and so not have an issue with Liverpool being awarded the title?

All of that is pure conjecture and question-marked. I might be wrong with the very first assumption about the decision-making forum and processes. But the vested interests of each Premier League club suggest this outcome to me.

Secondly, it's entirely appropriate for sensible precautions to be taken, like the current suspension of games, properly erring on the side of safety. However, perspective is also needed, and the media and some politicians are irresponsible in promoting excess fear and some panic amongst sections of the population.

There are of course worst-case imagined scenarios, as in all hazards that can affect large numbers of people, but the media and those in authority do need to get a firmer grip on matters.

A gang of self-righteous bastards who have never took ownership for the banning of English clubs and the unfortunate death of innocent Italian football fans. They have infiltrated every corner of football to ensure that only positives are mentioned concerning the fuckers.

Let them suffer like we did 34 years ago. Karma.

I think the Premier League, as well as some other sports, acted far more appropriately than our government or its medical advisers who seem completely out of step to the response from other European countries and their medical advisers. Seems that the American sports authorities have also taken action even though Coco the Clown thinks the virus is under control. So here we have horse racing and rugby league going ahead, yet pretty much all other sports have been cancelled.

We were told by this country's Chief Medical Officer that we are about a month away from the peak of this virus, so it seems reasonable to suggest that players and managers will still catch the virus until late March or early April. So it may well be May before the sporting calendar can be resurrected, and given that it is estimated that it will take at least 6 weeks to complete the domestic competitions, even with mid-week games.

There can be no empathy for assigning the winner of the Premier League, as the programme can't be completed.

Tough fortune for our neighbours, and arguably an Act of God, and in context all the clubs looking to avoid relegation and potential get into Europe, mixed ironies, but common sense must prevail by the football authorities and government.

It seems by the media that this pandemic is worsening by the day in the UK and Central Europe.

Postpone the Premier League and Euro 2020 and the Olympics and when the health and welfare of the world is safe, we can start playing football again.

"I am sure that Fifa and Uefa will be eager to start up their competitions as early as possible, as they will not want their competitions next year being affected. I am sure Sky will have some input into the discussions with the Premier League on how to resolve finishing this season's competitions as early as possible".

Further reasons I suspect the Premier League decision might be as in #63 - i.e. the influence of, and pressure from, these other interested parties for an Occam's Razor.

Should the Premier League title be awarded to Liverpool, even if the season is not completed?

In the top four tiers of English football alone there are 92 clubs. Yesterday's suspension of all leagues and cup competitions will have far, far greater impact on the overwhelming majority of those clubs.

Their very survival could be at stake.

The Premier League clubs are largely cushioned from the financial impact of Covid-19, but from the Championship down, the loss of gate revenue is a big deal. Finishing positions and prize money is a big deal.

Clubs budget for an entire year depending on their finances at the conclusion of the season in May. Many players are deliberately on contracts that expire before June.

The summer months are anticipated as 'down time' for clubs. The likes of west Ham and Spurs are already expressing concern that should the Premier League season be extended into those months, it puts into jeopardy their ability to stage home games as summer events are already scheduled for their stadiums.

Throw into the mix how fixtures for the next 3 seasons have already been juggled to accommodate the Qatar World Cup in the winter of 2022 and the conundrum is made even more difficult.

There is very little wriggle room in which to complete fixtures.

The merits and demerits of whether Liverpool should be awarded the Premier League bauble or not pales into insignificance to the uncertain future many clubs are now facing, never mind the impact on wider society.

You simply cannot award trophies based on probability. You cannot extend the suspension of this season's fixtures indefinitely.

And you most definitely cannot establish a rule for one over and above the other 91 top tier clubs.

Yes, a further reason I can see Premier League clubs voting in their own interests to not extend the season. The more I think about this, the more I'm anticipating that the other lot will be awarded the title.

Also, you can bet your life that, had this situation occurred when Leicester City were on the point of winning the title, the season would have been declared void without a thought. But, because it's the Red Shite, the powers that be will be jumping through hoops to award them the title.

"The Premier League did stop eventually, and it’s about time. It was the right decision faced with the scenario. We couldn’t continue. Health is the most important thing for everyone: teams, fans, media, everyone who works in football.

"In theory, we ought to get back to work on March 22, but if the situation in general should worsen, how can we even think of that? If the Coronavirus is still spreading rapidly, football cannot resume.

"Football counts for zero right now and it almost irritates me to be talking about it, faced with the tragedy that is unfolding in front of our eyes. This is a pandemic, a situation none of us had experienced before now.

"The number of deaths in Italy (1,266) is terrible. In one day, another 250 people died. The priority is to concentrate on this fight, the rest doesn’t matter."

All of the talking-heads and TV news outlets in the UK should refrain from specualting about what should happen with football because in a short while we could be facing the same issues that Italy currently faces.

But all we can do is kick up a fuss here to help your one rule for the rs and sod the other divisions not happen.

Link

Without naming him, Carlo said the player who had been running a high temperature that triggered Everton's self-imposed lockdown yesterday, that his temperature had now fallen.

I also liked what Carlo said about Boris Johnson:

'...after watching the message from the Conservative party leader, Ancelotti was less than convinced.

The Everton boss added: "Italy were forced to understand that it was time to stop being superficial, they had to respect the orders and stay home, to respect themselves and others during this war.

"I watched Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s speech on TV and it seems to be someone here hasn’t realised the gravity of the situation. Life continues as normal, to a certain degree."

Re your 'Fantasy live forum on Monday evening anyone? Everton two up after one and a half minutes? The shite reduced to nine men after three?'

So I go with the next part... Liverpool equalise with a minute to go then get a penalty in the 5th minute of injury time... do they score or does Pickford save it?

Your comment: "And you most definitely cannot establish a rule for one over and above the other 91 top tier clubs."

You are absolutely correct. I suspect the challenge will be ensuring those in decision-making roles see it that way. Any views on a call to arms?

It's fantasy, mate; he saves it with his arse. 😂😂

If I recall correctly, contracts run until June 30; no doubt they'd be extended until the season is completed, probably with a bonus attached.

Re: the effect on other sports going up against football over the summer, I've no idea tbh. Just thinking of this from a football perspective.

If the season is declared finished now and Liverpool are Champions, I have no problem with that. They are, despite some desperate arguments, going to win it, Pep had clearly accepted this 2 months ago. It'd be laughably unjust to scrap the season and say "hard lines".

Like it or not, they've been the best, most consistent team by an absolute mile and played good footie, to boot. Good luck to them.

I have no reservations saying this. I'll be Everton until I die and they are our fiercest rivals. I enjoyed Atletico's win as much as anyone but do I hate them and their fans? Don't be daft.

Far more complex is the situation with teams currently in the relation zone and of course the various promotion/relegation spots throughout the leagues.

I have always maintained that there are more important things in life than football, and I'm almost sure that the majority of ToffeeWeb members will vouch for that, you and I certainly come under that category. I make no secret of the fact that, had the Government not stepped in, I would probably have attended the game on Monday. Thankfully I was relieved of making that decision.

My view, like yours, is that the season should run to its natural end, but I fear that, if it isn't allowed to, Liverpool will be awarded the title. I don't regard myself as a 'Bitter Blue' but I do resent the fact that they denied us the opportunity to test ourselves in Europe, and If my memory serves me right, they had their ban reduced.

I hold the view, rightly or wrongly, that the Premier League consists of Liverpool, Manchester United and eighteen others, there have been a few who have had their 'fifteen minutes of fame', including Arsenal and Manchester City. but Liverpool and Manchester United are firmly in the driving seat. The TV and media Moguls will see to that; I'll just sit back and await developments.

The games will have to run into the summer. The consequences of messing with league are too broad and complex.

Void European competitions, but not domestic leagues unless there is simply no option.

We have got Evertonians making a case to give Liverpool the trophy for a competition they haven't won?

Give them a special award for "Trying Hard" or such like. Similar to the "Great Effort" award given to the kid in the class who did his best but still came bottom. They could even send a copy to Norway.

I was born and bred in Liverpool but now live in Canada. I love Everton as much as I despise the RS. I would never want to give them my support in any way, shape or form. Yes, I am biased and have been for 80 years and I also delight in it.

ps: My prejudice is only directed to football. Just ask some of the Reds in my family.

How does this all relate to players training? How many clubs have suspended training (we have and do we still?) on the basis of less close contact?

Move to 30th March, a decision has to be made. "Do we start matches again on Saturday?" "Well," comes the reply "actually no, there are still a pile of clubs with infected players" Cue a further postponement until 25th April.

At which point most players will have had 6+ weeks without training. Think what a pre-season is all about. Getting players fit to play a high intensity (okay, there are some we would question the word 'intensity' applies to them) sport will mean that, firstly, there will be a lot of muscle strains and tears and, secondly, games played at a less frenetic pace. So 20th April could be the date of "return to training" with games not really starting until 9th May to give players and clubs the 2-3 weeks needed to get back up to full fitness.

And these only just (match) fit again players now required to play 2 games a week over the next few weeks, including some playing 3 because of Cup commitments. Quick break on the beach and back again 3 weeks later.

Yeah. Right.

Wot Ken @ 89 said.

You get zero argument from me that Liverpool have been head and shoulders above everyone else in the Premier League season to date.

You will get zero argument from me that, should fixtures resume, they will comfortably garnish enough points to secure the title.

But it is an indisputable fact that mathematically, at this time, no team has secured a title, a European place via their league position, guaranteed promotion for next season, or is condemned to relegation.

Should it come to it and league fixtures across all major leagues cannot be completed, you simply cannot establish a rule of one that does not apply, in the English leagues, to all other 91 clubs as you and others propose.

To do otherwise would be very unfair. To give Liverpool the title because they are 1st would surely mean the current bottom 3 would have to be relegated, as giving the RS the title means the current position is what counts. Leeds would go ape, and quite rightly, if they were denied promotion, whilst the RS were crowned Champions – how hypocritical would that be?

Share the Premier League positional money out evenly amongst the 20 or put it in trust and add it to the money for next season. Though a better and more community spirited thing would be to use it to share amongst the lower league teams, based on estimated income for the home games that have been cancelled - Hell will freeze over before that happens but it would be a great gesture and they can easily afford it.

Just a thought: what would happen if Liverpool were 2nd by a point to Man City – would the Reds say "Give it to City"? We all know the answer to that one, don't we.

Heysel, and the scenario Ray @ 57 rightly reminds us of, may not have been on the scale of the present catastrophe, but they and their repercussions were just as unprecedented.

There were 2 sets of fans at Heysel that day, as you say, but only one lot got us banned.

As many on here have said, how can any one club be awarded a title, trophy, promotion or relegation to the exclusion of every other outcome in the football pyramid? ... Oh wait, it's Liverpool.

To be honest, I'm astonished any Blue would advocate that.

Shit happens – fuck 'em.

I think there is a good chance of the season being cancelled. Obviously, that's cruel for Liverpool, but I don't see what can be done about it. Some things are more important than football.

The only way I can see them winning the league atm is if the authorities start playing games behind closed doors, but that's looking unlikely.

We are at the beginning of the beginning of this, it seems. It's going to get very tough and we need to support our front line doctors and nurses by taking our responsibility very seriously. I'm not even sure if next season will start in time, to be honest.

Look there's precedent for this – football was suspended in 1939 and didn't start again til 1945.

If you don't believe it would be, then you cannot appoint a Champion for the same reason. Similarly, would the lost income affect some clubs under FFP rules and should they, similarly, be abandoned.

Who did that bloke Solomon support?

You seem pretty keen to award Liverpool a title they have not won. You did make me laugh when you labeled other posts as "fucking ridiculous". Especially as it's clear you do not understand the point.

It doesn't matter what other sport people use to demonstrate that anything is possible. Spectacular reversals, comebacks and collapses happen in any sport. That is the very essence of sport. It's the reason why the trophies are not presented until it is mathematically impossible for a lead to be overturned.

Talk to a Red Sox fan about 2011. Or maybe a Madrid fan about the time the bookies paid out five weeks early because their lead was supposedly unassailable, only or them to lose seven out of the last eight matches (even with players like Figo and Zindane). And they didn't just get pipped by one team; they finished 4th.

I'm aware that a Liverpool collapse would be up there with the most spectacular of cave-ins in the history of sport – but nobody has the right to say they wouldn't have buckled. No matter how slim the chance.

You may want to hand Liverpool the title if the Premier League is cut short, but you will be in a minority. At the risk of upsetting you again by using another sport as an example... Most people want to see the checkered flag waved before declaring a race over.

And this isn't because I'm blue to the core. And it should be the same with relegation. This applies to all leagues and teams around the world who are affected by this virus.

Scrap the season and start again in August or whenever. Also, their record recently shows that they are starting to feel the pressure: won 1; lost 3.

The football authorities will at some point also need to have regard to the need to schedule domestic football around the next World Cup to be held in November & December 2022, not just the tournament itself but also the qualifying stages across the globe. To think it is only a few days since some were worried about Richarlison playing in the Olympics.

Lobbying away in the face of human distress.

Suck it up. Get used to it. This season is over. You won exactly the same as The Mighty Blues did. Bugger all.

They can stuff their Steau Bucharest flag where the sun don’t shine.

Just imagine the ire and the sense of outrage and victimhood they will have if you stop them winning the title when they're 25 points clear, needing less than a handful of victories. I know (and I understand) that the knee-jerk and emotional response to this is ‘Fuck ‘em', and believe me, I feel the same way.

But, doing this could really come back to bite us and the rest of the league on the arse. The determination for them to win it whenever next season starts will be at insane levels, and we could see a very unwelcome era of domination emerge,

Give them the title now, say ‘Well done'. Don't rub it in any further. We don't need to say anything. They'll always know in the back of their minds that they didn't actually win it, and everyone else knows this as well. It's perfect.

It could fuck them up psychologically in a way that we can't even envisage right now, in the heat of the moment, but, it could be the trigger that stops them from getting anywhere near the title for another 30 years.

[Just think about it for a minute...]

It didn't work.

ps: I'd be happy to contribute towards that flag.

But no, the proper course of action is to declare the season void in the absence of completing all the games.

Don't underestimate the rampant fervour to finish it from the bean counters though. They'll likely find a spurious way. They will blindfold themselves to the risks to make sure the money comes in without legal restraints.

If the season is declared null and void, will the death toll be less?

I'm sure all of us are more concerned about how many lives can be saved in the next few weeks and months, and that is the priority.

Give Liverpool a form of the title – elect, with an asterisk etc, - something they will never want to brag about. Promote the top two from the lower leagues and play with a bigger Premier League for the next season or two.

No solution is going to make everyone (or even anyone) happy, but for sure Liverpool should never be awarded a “normal” title without actually crossing the finish line.

Some clubs will be disappointed and others relieved if the season is voided, but practically speaking, nobody will be able to claim they were truly screwed over because so much of the season still remained. So, from that perspective, it's not an impractical solution.

European places would be another question altogether. I don't know how they resolve that one.

I've thought about it and your idea sounds like a cop-out.

"Ooh... don't upset them; they'll try even harder."

As for not bringing up Heysel, I've been told off for doing this on numerous occasions by my red friends over the years, but I've never heard a blue that has an issue with it. Until now.

It's okay for them to crow about being ‘European Royalty' to me, so every time they mention their illustrious European Cup history, I remind them about that evil night in Belgium.

Funnily enough, they very rarely say much after that. Not to my face anyway.

Anyway, all precautions need to be taken regarding this pandemic, which is getting more serious by the day, and the Premier League is a secondary consideration.

My grandmother lost two sisters buried on the same day in the 1918-20 Spanish Flu pandemic. There were two waves of it and more people died in the second wave, so the implications are in their infancy at the moment.

Never, Never, Never, Never!

Waiting for Godot.

Say 3,000 fans each game (not counting season ticket holders) paying £15 each, times by 5 and the amount per team is less than £400k. Top teams in the Premier League would cover this at £20k each.

If we look at the Championship, there are nine matches to go for each team. Leeds and West Brom are ahead of the pack but a poor run could let Fulham, Brentford, Nottm Forest or Preston NE through. And Bristol City, Millwall, Cardiff CIty, Blackburn Rovers, Swansea City and Derby County are between 1 and 5 points off the playoffs. So 12 teams are in with a chance of promotion. Who decides who is going up from the playoffs?

This is replicated in every division. The situation of Liverpool is different from any other team in any division, and surely there must be equal and identical treatment for all teams in all divisions. Anything else is grossly unfair on dozens of teams.

The only possible fair outcome is to abandon the season and start as we were in Summer 2019. While this will be difficult for West Brom and Leeds, at least it will prevent endless litigation and arbitrary rulings across the entire sport.

Liverpool's situation is unfortunate for them (and I would certainly laugh like a drain), but any other solution than complete scrapping of this season would be grossly unfair and would stink of special treatment. It's not as if they are going to lose any money, unlike the teams in the Championship.

"Didn't really win it,
You know you didn't really win it
You didn't win it,
You know you didn't really win it"

I'm sure the Mancs will come up with something better – perhaps along the lines of that lovely Gerrard song about Demba Ba.

If not, you cannot single Liverpool out just because there is a big points gap in their situation... but, of course, we all know that them and Man Utd always get big decisions in their favour.

There will still be people contracting the virus and measures in place to prevent it rising again.

So how long is this particular piece of string?

If Liverpool were to be awarded the title following a complete abandonment of the season, then it would open up a huge can of financial and legal worms which could destroy the game in this country.

We all know that the peak in this epidemic won't be reached until June at the earliest, so finishing the season off is pure fantasy: the clubs will have too many unfit, or hospitalised players, so that is a nonsense.

The only sensible option is for the season to be scrapped – it happened at the start of the 2nd World War, and also, when clubs have played games, then been kicked out of the league (Accrington, Leeds City etc), had their records expunged, which was unfair on the clubs who had beaten them.

No clubs can be relegated; ergo, no-one can be declared winners of anything, bar Man City. To take a local example, Tranmere were looking doomed, but 3 wins on the bounce, and the momentum this brings, has shortened the gap, and the odds, and it looked a certainty they would survive.

So No, to those above who were posting in favour of the enemy being awarded a 'phoney' title: just remember the injustice we suffered through their shameful act, and even worse, the Steaua Bucharest banner.

This is a natural phenomenon, beyond the remit of the football authorities, yet 1985 wasn't: Everton fans were praised by the police in Rotterdam, and had no involvement in the disgraceful scenes and loss of life a week later, and that lost us our manager and best players – theirs will still be eligible for all competitions next season.

Our neighbours are still deluded.

I was in a pub a couple of months ago and I overheard a few of them talking about how the ban affected them more than any other team. Seems the "it was really southern accent Chelsea supporters" nonsense is still what caused Heysel and believed by them.

The Telegraph article Lyndon refers to is authored by Tony Evans who is an RS and he is already doing the rounds on the radio stations. They are planting the seeds so that people start saying all the shite that they deserve it, they would have won it anyway.

When listening to the media bullshit, ask them about what happens to Champions League and don't be surprised to hear they don't really care about that funnily enough.

Tony Evans, he's so impartial, isn't he? Fuck off!

Phil McNulty chief sports writer on the BBC website you can fuck off too, funnily enough there was still an article on the BBC website yesterday by him talking about putting the red ribbons on the trophy!!

Oh, I would love it for this season to be scrapped, the smugness of them and their song Ole Ole Ole, "We're from Liverpool "really? And "We've won the fuckin lot"!

Erm... except the cup winners cup and as we stand the Premier league.

Let's hope it stays that way.

This virus is going to see loads off, and has already started setting precedents, so my own view is maybe the season will continue because of promotion and relegation, and the following season, whenever it is played, might just have a very shortened league, where every team just plays each other once. This is a Liverpool website I’m on isn’t it!

Do Aston villa, Bournemouth and Norwich deserve to be relegated now because they are the current three bottom teams? No,because while it's still mathematically possible for them to get out of the bottom three they will believe they can get out of it.

The common words here are Mathematically possible / impossible. Until either scenario becomes reality, which at the moment is looking highly unlikely, then the RS should not be crowned champions.

Football will resume when it’s safe to resume. It might be in a month or a year or three years, nobody knows. As for the financial implications for clubs, join the fucking queue. No business is going to come out of this unscathed except the soap manufacturers. Try having a look at the current value of your personal pension, everyone is going to suffer financially.

Klippety is saying all the right things now but let's see if that changes if this season is voided. Can you imagine the umbrage from the Orcs around town if it was voided? Would be fantastic. I'd be made up.

That is why the 'crown Liverpool' argument is not so straightforward. All the games that remain in the season have to be played to settle the relegation battle or the league is called off. Also, why any self respecting Everton would advocate handing the trophy to those tossers I don't know!

I'm appealing you to tolerate an old man in his dotage, by explaining why the Steaua Bucharest banner is of such significance, it may well trigger an instant response, and I'll be able to say, "Yes I remember that" or it may on the other hand, cause even more confusion. Best wishes john.

Mike G, said that the Chinese have been ruthless with the way they have made people stay at home, and hopefully a lot more people are going to live-to tell the tale, as a result of this.

The more life goes on, the more this virus is going to spread, and if the fit and healthy, seem to make a full recovery, whilst the elderly and vulnerable are not so lucky, then I’m glad I’m hearing some common-sense off the idiots in charge, especially because Europe is now the Epicentre of this plague.

I'm still waiting for someone to find an excuse for a get-together, but it's looking less likely by the day, as a member of the 'Endangered Species' I anticipate a sentence of at least 4 months. My 'Young Lady' and I are off to our daughters to celebrate our 57th wedding anniversary, the last chance of any sort of gathering.

No, I thought not but there are those who say we should never raise yesterday.

As far as this season is concerned, we should 1] try to complete it. If, as doesn't seem possible, it can't run to conclusion we should 2) look to see if anything definitive had happened before it ended. Was any already champions in any division, had anyone been relegated already. No? then 3) void the whole competition.

It would be devastating on Liverpool and two of my best mates who are Liverpudlians (both sound blokes) but is it necessary for the greater good? Yes, just like the blanket European ban was in 1986 onwards.

I feel slightly guilty even contemplating this topic when hundreds, possibly thousands of people will lose their lives and the economy is likely to go belly up causing mass unemployment and hardship. Life is indeed more important than football - just occasionally we all lose our sense of proportion and sometimes need reminding.

I’ll join the soft-hearted luvvies arguing on this thread that the title should just be given to LFC because they “deserve” it just as soon as I hear one of their lot arguing that as Everton were Champions in both 1913 and 1939 we should have been awarded the titles until 1919 and and 1946 because we were indisputably the best team and deserved it. That would put us on 20, 2 more than the RS.

Utter drivel of course. Just like the argument for giving anything to the RS.

You and your young lady sound like you could forge a new career giving online Marriage Guidance to today's youngsters.

You two have a great day with your family

Yes, it's blindingly obvious that people getting ill and many losing their lives is an infinitely more important matter than football. However, this is a football forum, where football issues are discussed. Such discussion is entirely separate, but obviously related, to the coronavirus issues. The latter do nothing to give us a sense of proportion about football, because we should already have that sense of proportion.

Football is not of zero importance, it is simply far less important than issues of life and death. There's no need for anybody on here to apologise or feel guilty about discussing football issues at this moment in time. Having a sense of proportion includes carrying on with everyday life in the face of adversity.

And no, no team should be awarded a title unless a competition has run its course and they've won it.

On the occasion of their 60th anniversary, my grandparents were interviewed by a local TV station. The reporter leaned in and asked, "Mr. and Mrs. Bauling, what's the secret? What's the glue to a 60-year marriage?"

My 4-foot-8-inch grandmother grinned into the camera and quipped, "Great sex!" My grandfather's expression never changed.

We won the League in 1938-39, and handed the trophy over to our arch enemies Liverpool in 1946-47. There was no League programme in 1939-40 although Everton played three games in the 1939-40 season before war was declared, but the appearances and goals were not recorded from those fixtures.

There were no League programmes in 1940-41, 1941-42, 1942-43, 1943-44, 1944-45, 1945-46

In 1945-46 the FA Cup was competed for, but unfortunately Everton were eliminated by Preston North End, in home and away ties, 4-3 on aggregate.

I posted on a different article about the affect of the two wars. I had a slightly different take, somewhat tongue in cheek. I noted that we had won the league imediately before each war.

1. After WW1 we kept the Championship for "4" more years

2After WW2 we kept the Championship for "7"more years

3 By my recogning 7+4 = 11 plus the 9 we also have gives us 20

Biased and "Blue" but I will do anything to get one up

Still very disappointed not too have met up with you. But our very late cancellation from Canada with my two sons for the Derby has proved to be very fortunate. I am now looking toward late August although nobody can be sure about this virus

Hi John [184] I'm not long back from my daughters home, I managed to get one get-together [the family kind] I'll e-mail you tomorrow.

I hope I didn't cause offence, I'm off now to enjoy my freedom before they lock me down. I consider it 'locking me up' which seems a better option than 'Putting me down'.

Please, God...

Minor and under age games, can still be played under 'Enhanced Hygiene' conditions...what ever that means

I can see this all falling down as events escalate.

Edit; the Warriors RL team have said 'kit, were going home after 2 rounds of the competition.

So no, the fairest way is to null and void the season, no champions, no relegation and no promotion from the championship. Tough on the RS (it's not really 😂😂😂) Leeds and West Brom as it stands, but it's the easiest way to sort this out.

If the season ran on into August or September, when does the next season start, in November? The whole sequence would be out. It could take years to get the season back running from August to May. So just scrap it and start afresh in this coming August.

Whatever happens, happens. The crowing from many contributors to this thread that the best team by a mile this season may not win the title, due to unfortunate circumstances doesn't sit well with me. If all we've got is hoping they don't win something then priorities are all wrong and we are exactly like some of their fans like to paint us: a small club. In all honesty what I want is to see us as competitive again. We're about as far from them right now as Tranmere are to us, that's the real kick in the guts.

If they are successful I don't sweat it. They get clobbered like with the Europa final vs Seville a while back, or Athletico last week then yeah I have a chuckle. Some people on here though I think it makes their year and that ain't me, so there's that.

My Blue Side: Ha ha ha ha ha. 30 years, ha ha ha, Slippy, ha ha ha etc

You say wanting them not to be given the title makes us a small club? You are wrong again. Supporters of just about every top club in England would applaud a decision not to hand them the title.

I'd go further and say supporters of ALL sports would be happy to see the very ethos of sport upheld by not handing a trophy to somebody who didn't cross the finishing line.

I would say the same thing if it were any other club. You cannot award a sporting prize to anybody who has not yet won it. That said, if it happened to them, it would give me enormous satisfaction to know their seemingly unassailable lead counted or nothing. That those who so wronged our club, got to experience what it felt like to be deprived of glory by something which was completely out of their control.

Not the same thing I know, but it's probably about as close to justice as we are ever going to get.

Also, we were defending Champions when WW1 started too... that's ten seasons lost as defending Champions.

Slightly off-topic, and in no way meant to cause offence, but am I right in thinking, and I'm being serious, that Hitler was a kopite?

You are right, of course. Anyone with family will be growing increasingly anxious as they read the latest numbers... but ToffeeWeb is and will hopefully continue to offer us all a welcome distraction.

Many will be stuck in their homes. Coming on here to moan about our club and all the other relatively trivial stuff we discuss will (imo) help people get through it.

They have not won anything yet.

Of course he was, couldn't be anything else really could he? His half brother lived for a while at 102 Upper Stanhope Street. My grandad swore he saw him once with a red and white scarf on so it must be true.

However, the mixed messages coming from the health experts suggest that this virus is still an unknown quantity, with the possibility of mutating, making it harder to stop. Vaccines are some way off, and availability of them on a mass scale will also be a long way off.

I know that in these circumstances it is only a minor thing but presuming that the health problems are solved, the chances of the season being completed are looking slight.

I am truly sorry for Leeds and West Brom, and one other, and I do have compassion for those athletes at Liverpool who have worked so hard for their goal. I don't give a fig for their boss or their fans though.

I heard a female red on the radio last week moaning that it "always happens to us". Navel-gazing self-absorbed and no idea what it's like for all of the fans at other clubs. Every club has a hard-luck story. This one can be added to their little list.

There are people dropping dead, emergency services are stretched to the limit and the likes of him and that lass you refer to are concerned about a piece of tin.

When you contrast that with some famous Blues, well, tells its own story. God (obviously), Our Lady (always in blue and white), Dalai Lama (Nepalese for ‘Dixie 60 in a season' and has a season ticket for Upper Bullens – I saw him buying a scouse pie), The Pope (wrote the Z-Cars theme and always wears the 1984 Rotterdam jersey under his cassock – the one he wore at the game), and Tom Hanks (nicest man in the world apparently). My case rests.

Mark Lawrenson, Steve McManaman, Ray Houghton, Steven Warnock, John Aldridge, Graeme Souness, Danny Murphy, Phil Thompson, Jamie Carragher, Jamie Redknapp, Paul Ince, Michael Owen and Peter Crouch.

Thinking of you all at this difficult time.

"People who want the league closing are selfish."

There are people dying here, you scruff.

There must be some right ugly scruffs who support the shite, but I can't be arsed looking them up.

Time will tell. Not playing the Euros may actually provide more time to finish domestic seasons, assuming come mid-April we're even in a position to consider such a thing.

The economic effect of all of this is reaching apocalyptic proportions. Small businesses in this country are going to take a beating - mine is already hurting. Larger companies will be forced to let workers go. Unemployment is going to soar. Couple that with the USA sitting on a $23 Trillion deficit, and banks leveraged to the hilt, it's pretty scary stuff.

We need to be safe and "shelter in place." But the second it's safe to do so, commerce needs to come firing out of the gates.

And when people say, "We're all in this together" they aren't kidding. It's a world economy, and everyone needs to help one another. Any politician talking myopically about only his or her country's woes, should be duly voted out of office for lack of perspective and intelligence.

They’re falling like dominoes.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/2b/19/e0/2b19e095764c93ec8f13e0057ca39cb0--ager-fine-wine.jpg

'The economic effect of all of this is reaching apocalyptic proportions.'

Is right, Jamie.

This is just the start. All global markets have taken scarily huge hits already on the tentative steps governments have reluctantly made to date. Check the current value of your pension fund, for those who have one, or any share holdings.

Those falls have not yet fully factored in the growing reality of the situation, that commerce, manufacturing and the circulation of money will increasingly come to a complete standstill and dry up.

Central banks are once again bailing out the big corporations to prop up the collapsing infrastructure, but I don't expect to read CEO's and their directors announcing they will forgo their salaries or dividends until this crisis passes.

Instead, they will already be running the numbers of how they can cut costs. And top of that list will be staff cuts, who they can let go. Small independent businesses (such as your own maybe..?) will do well just to survive.

This is going to lead to a tsunami of unemployment at a time when costs are likely to soar as items we take for granted became ever scarcer to source as restrictions are preventing the work force from manufacturing, planting, growing, harvesting and delivering any and every item imaginable.

The 'debate' on the merits and demerits of awarding the 'bours the PL title occupies an infintisimally small part of this crisis by comparison.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/3bn-contract-could-mean-premier-17936326

What next season looks like can be determined at the same time.

Small independent businesses (such as your own maybe..?) will do well just to survive.

^^ Yup.

I think we Crowley's will be fine, as long as there isn't a world-wide depression / collapse (obviously).

But my little biz is already feeling the awful affects of this, and it'll be one hell of a tough year coming up.
After February, we were well ahead of 2019 and looking at our biggest year ever. We're now showing a loss for the year. The turn-around has been abrupt and downright violent. The Mrs. and I have already discussed the "staring into the abyss plan" just so we're prepared for any eventuality. But again, I do believe we'll weather the storm.

On a macro level, if I had to guess, come May the economy will be back on track. Not the drunken sailor on track we've been living in, but back on track. I'll wager the economy, businesses, and personal wealth will be staring at a 10% to 15% overall loss for 2020.

That' including some that will be devastated / wiped out with unemployment, and that awful reality.

This economic landscape has the ability to make 2008-2009 look like a picnic.

Say your prayers, kids. And if you don't subscribe to that way of thinking, find your inner John Lennon, Imagine, and help your neighbor. Rough times coming I'm afraid.

Football / Soccer is a game. With all of the above said, it pales in comparison to life. But I will say, I've never realized how much I've taken "sport" for granted. It's an unbelievable gift to have. It offers entertainment, an escape from reality, and we watch for moments that ignite the soul. I miss it, will miss it, and when it returns I'll never take it for granted again. I'll thank my lucky stars we live in a society that offers such a thing to humanity. It exemplifies the human spirit in it's own way, and it's beautiful to behold on so many levels.

And that, for me, is not hyperbole. I mean every single word of it.

There's also a mention/rumour of the census at the time recording a "family member" in temporary residence at Alois' home

Help is what we are all going to need, so hopefully it becomes the word, at the top of everybody’s list!

I 100% agree with the sentiment of your 'hyperbole'.

We take the diversion and leisure we glean from sport as a given. All the more so in the wall-to-wall coverage of all sports these days.

Only now that it has been decimated and nothing remains on the sporting calendar can we better appreciate it.

Who, like me, now browses the internet first thing in the morning and is done and dusted in five minutes instead of an hour because there are no overnight sports scores or reports to catch up on?

Read this piece from the BBC Jamie that echoes many of the sentiments you express about the place of sports in our lives.

Yes, sport seems trivial in the face of this global crisis.

And yet...

Link

The same issues are prevalent across all UK Leagues and Europe.

Celtic will be thinking they’ve got the SPL, in the bag by default, Rangers will believe, with their games in hand they still have a chance.

The European Championships are pinned back a year, this doesn’t make it a space to finish the EPL, or any other league.

BAU, life in the UK, is facing unprecedented challenges these coming months, possibly quarters..

Health of the nations people is more important than football titles.

There’s a time and place for football, and sadly but rightfully so, now nor in the imminent future is not the time.

Tough, and that’s life.

Great article. I actually copied the link to my wife to read.

I was thinking about us Americans in regards to all this.

With the introduction of the EPL to American society about 15 years ago or so, and it now consuming many of us, and it's wide (VAST) availability here in the States, us Americans are literally surrounded in our waking hours with sport.

For a typical weekend - Wake, EPL or Euro International footy. Every game. Covers you from 7:30 a.m. until 2 p.m. with something to watch. Lunch - Basketball, Baseball, NFL, MLS, NCAA Football, pick your poison depending on the season / time of year. Night - NFL, more baseball, more hoops, more footy, and the NHL who plays the large majority of their games in the evening.

It's like being completely surrounded by something you love, and POOF! It's gone.

One of my favorite times of the year is April through end of May-ish. The NHL playoffs are pure gold. The drama is simply intense - I've gotten nervous watching games my beloved Boston Bruins aren't even playing in!

It's all gone. It'll come back. But man you just don't know a good thing 'till it's gone.

Chin up, as you were, plod on, we'll get through.

Tony A - thanks mate. Be well.

You can't have one winner in a ghost season but everything else void.

As Carlo Ancelotti has rightly stated, this is a global catastrophe and football should be the last thing on our minds.

Cancel the season; null and void and all summer tournaments to boot; so everyone can have one single focus; to stop the spread of the disease.

If they finish the season then they will have won the title.

If they don't finish the season then it will always be with the asterisk that the season was not completed and they were handed the title.

I know which one will give us the most leverage in the future.

You always hope Wiki is true. Seems more people killed by bombing in Liverpool than anywhere else except London. And of course the story about Hitler's half-brother's old house.