Pickford: Criticism hurts but I just get on with it

Monday, 10 February, 2020 300comments  |  Jump to last

Jordan Pickford has reacted to the criticism he feels England players get, admitting that while it pisses him off he is learning to live with it.

The goalkeeper was speaking after Everton's 3-1 win over Crystal Palace in which he atoned for a glaring error to make an excellent point-blank save to deny Christian Benteke a second equaliser and keep the Toffees on course for victory.

Pickford explained that the shot that flew under him from Benteke for Palace's goal, “was a foot save and I have led with my hand. I couldn't get my leg out. It was stuck. It happens.”

He insisted that while he was disappointed, neither he nor his team-mates allowed the incident to affect them and he had the same thoughts about the stick he gets from pundits and the speculation that his England place is under threat from the likes of Sheffield United's Dean Henderson.

“[It] doesn't really affect me,” Pickford said. “He'll do what he'll do and I'll do what I'll do.

“The press and everybody, the punters — look at Gary Neville… They just want to come for England players. Everyone gets stick. That's part of being an England player. You have to live with it, you've got to learn.

“You just keep it away from your head as the only person who can sort things out is yourself, on the pitch and in training. Every England player gets stick. Some get a lot more praise than others. Look at Joe Hart when he was No 1. He got pelters every week.

“It's easy to see. Everyone hates you, for some reason. I just get on with it. I know what I'm capable of and I know what I'm good at. Yeah, it hurts.

“I know I have been good for England. It's funny because everyone raves about you when you are with England, but then you go back to your club and everyone wants to slate you. I don't let it affect me. But it does piss you off."

 

Reader Comments (300)

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Chris Mason
1 Posted 10/02/2020 at 07:12:25
So...it does affect you then? He’s an odd one. With small arms :)
Paul Tran
2 Posted 10/02/2020 at 07:30:18
I'll tip my hat to him for admitting the obvious; that it does affect him and it's down to him to deal with it.

There's a good keeper there, once he works on his decision-making and gets his head right.

This is a start. Carlo will be watching, I'm sure.

Derek Thomas
3 Posted 10/02/2020 at 07:49:28
"I don't let it affect me. But it does piss you off" - so it does affect him. Let's hope it motivates him to cut out the mistakes that people have a go at him for...Who else is there? all the top ones as spoken for. Its up to Brands to spot a gem.
Les Moorcroft
4 Posted 10/02/2020 at 07:55:40
Jordan, your inconsistency pisses me off. We got lucky Saturday not dropping points. They were on top after your cock-up.

Time to grow up, lad. Fuck England get it right for us.

Phil Sammon
5 Posted 10/02/2020 at 08:11:10
He’s lauded when he plays well and criticised when he plays poorly. I’m not sure what else he was expecting.

I don’t think it has anything to do with being an England player, specifically. That said, if he wants his errors to go un-noticed maybe he should look to drop down a few divisions rather than play on the world’s stage.

Ray Robinson
6 Posted 10/02/2020 at 08:21:11
Pickford's mistake at the weekend was horrendous but I still think that he is the best that we can afford without trading one set of weaknesses for another. It makes me laugh when people suggest Pope or Henderson as replacement who would just bring another set of faults for improvement in some areas. We can't do anything about Pickford's relative lack of height but we cannot afford an Alisson, Ederson or Oblak. Besides, there are more urgent areas to spend our money on.

Goalkeepers? They more or less all become flavour of the month and then lapse at some point. Butland, Forster, Bergovich, Mignolet, Green - all seen as great keepers at some point and then considered less than adequate the very next.

He is definitely worth continuing with.

Brian Williams
7 Posted 10/02/2020 at 08:29:34
He's the EVERTON goalie, he's had stick galore for his mistake against Palace, not so much patting on the back for the outstanding save.
How about we now get behind the lad OUR lad, OUR player, OUR goalie?
Or do we want to do the work of opposing supporters, and halfwit pundits for them?
My last word on Pickford. Not going to argue with Evertonians who prefer to just slag any player who makes a mistake and refuse to look at the positives!
Jim Bennings
8 Posted 10/02/2020 at 08:32:06
Not really the words I would have liked to have seen from someone who for me has been very indifferent in the last 18 months.

It’s a bit immature to say “everyone hates you when you are England Number 1”.

Nobody hated David Seaman or Shilton I seem to recall?

Nobody hates Pickford either, there is such thing as constructive criticism and Pickford’s form since the 2018 World Cup has warranted some criticism let’s be honest.

For every good save he makes there’s some kind of moment of madness just around the corner and once again on Saturday we witness at least two moments of insanity (one leading to Benteke levelling).

Personally I’d like to see Neville Southall get his hands on Pickford and give him some sound advice about how to calm his game down a bit more and start seeing the game for the bigger picture.

I think Big Nev recently said of Pickford that he’s a reactive rather than proactive goalkeeper and I’d say that sums him up well.

Martin Berry
9 Posted 10/02/2020 at 08:39:47
All the great keeper drop a clanger now and then, it happens but you are judged on the balance.
I believe Jordan will be a great keeper and these odd blips will just refocus him even more.
Steve Shave
10 Posted 10/02/2020 at 08:42:05
When oh when are we going to learn that one of the main reasons we are such perennial under-achievers for the past 20+ years is to do with the fans (well certain ones) attitude towards struggling players. Heavy weighed the crown, now we just drag it like a heavy burden behind us whilst we aim carefully directed blows at the ones we should be embracing and encouraging. Its a fucking cancer and unless we take some responsibility for it we will never get to where we want to be again.
Martin Mason
11 Posted 10/02/2020 at 08:45:41
Pickford is a great keeper. For me the best thing we can do is just see how he progresses and see if a real problem develops in his keeping. It is a very difficult position, possibly the key position on the field in modern play and there is no hiding place. when you do make a mistake or worse when you're perceived to make one.
Eddie Dunn
12 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:04:00
It's a media deprived of many games and particularly their usual Sky favourites, so they concentrate on Pickford. Being England's Number One does mean you will get more scrutiny so Jordan will just have to put up with it.

it should have been a save with the feet, but he didn't even need to stoop down. So often players (not just keepers) are too keen to fall to the ground, which is silly as it means you are out of the game.

Pickford is doing okay and as long as his mentality remains intact, he will improve. He mentions Joe Hart, which is a shame because there is a player who distracted his teammates with his tunnel antics and poor decision-making. His career took a sharp downturn.

I hope Jordan watches some videos of Allison. Good positional play, good at the basics and calmness personified. All goalies make mistakes. Even the best.

Brian Harrison
13 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:17:09
Funny he mentions Joe Hart because Pickford reminds me a lot of Joe Hart who could be brilliant and calamitous all in the same game. I also think he is like Hart in terms of temperament and neither give out the impression they are calm and in full control. All the top keepers give off this aura of calmness were Jordan always seems on edge to me every time he plays.

Maybe he needs to join Michael Keane at his yoga classes, as I think unless he learns to relax and not be so hyper he wont fulfill his potential.

Sam Hoare
14 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:20:13
Martin (and others) I'm afraid he's really not a great keeper. I'm not sure he's even a good one. Don't be fooled by his ocassional flashy save and admittedly good agility.

His save percentage this season now ranks at an unimpressive 61% which is less than all the regular keepers in the league bar one (Angus Gunn).

If you think this season is a blip then think again. Last year his save% was 64% which ranked him 17th in the league. 17-18 had him at 67% and in 12th position.

The stats show that he is NOT A GOOD SHOT-STOPPER! And that is supposedly his strong suit as we know he is pretty unreliable in the air.

He will be 26 in a month which is still fairly young for a keeper but he is not really improving, in fact the stats suggest he is getting worse. We have a few positions that need strengthening this summer but if there is ANY interest at all in PIckford (hopefully based on him still being England no1 this summer) then I would sell in a heartbeat. Any look at his underlying stats suggests a keeper who is mediocre at best by PL standards I'm afraid.

Good keepers make a huge difference and its not coincidence that Liverpool's upturn in form co-incided with the arrival of the excellent Allison. It's a crucial position of course and finding the right candidate is hard but unless Pickford can show a significant upturn in his form of the last two to three years then i'm convinced he is not the best man for the job.

I think given our supposed ambitions now we should aim higher than hoping a poor/mediocre keeper will get better when there is little evidence that he will.

Ray Roche
15 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:20:31
Jim Bennings @8,

Shilton got slaughtered for allowing the Argentine dwarf to beat him in the air for the Hand Of God goal. Pickford's right. People DO have a pop at players once they're picked for England, especially if the north/south divide comes into play.

Steve Shave @10,

Correct. Is there another club's fans that turn on their own players as much as Everton? Especially our own young players who are not allowed to falter in their development for fear of getting abused from the terraces?

I've said before on TW that just about every player, Alan Ball to Walcott, has taken a dogs abuse at some time or other, yet some pricks on the terrace think that it'll improve their performance! Get behind the players, not on their backs.

Look at all the “experts” on here that claim that Calvert-Lewin is “Championship at best”. Laughable, the lack of knowledge from some of these so-called fans.

Fran Mitchell
16 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:20:33
I think we'd be hard pushed to get a keeper better than Pickford. Look at the struggles clubs have when trying to sign keepers, 9/10 is doesn't work out.

Chelsea spent £75 million on Kepa and are looking for a replacement already.

I think we should stick with Pickford. Stand by him, and hopefully he'll improve and get through this tough spell. He's still young for a keeper, so his best years in front of him hopefully.

Ray Roche
17 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:25:10
Sam @14,

So you'd sell him in a heartbeat. And replace him with? And at what cost?

Your knowledge of European football far exceeds mine so I am interested in your choice. (Please don't say Pope. Didn't he drop a right bollock a week or two back which would have had TW in meltdown?)

Amit Vithlani
18 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:29:47
I am not one for stats, more for a range of factors when giving an opinion on a GK.

Does he inspire confidence - no. He looks awfully jittery every time a cross comes into the box.

Can he command the back line? Meh. Not sure.

Do I think he can keep out shots? Yes. He has the ability.

Is he a reliable last line of defence/ good on one on ones? He is probably best at this.

Penalties - you know he can pull something off. An important trait on VAR times.

Can we cover up his defficiencies? Not with the current back line we have. Too many look away when shots are being fired. If Paul McGrath or Dave Watson in his prime were in our backline then probably yes.

If he is going to get much better he is going to need an awful lot of coaching. Reminds me of a young Mark Bosnich, before the fat took over.

Andrew Ellams
19 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:30:40
He doesn't fill me with any confidence at all. The Benteke goal was unforgivable and the Hollywood reaction to the second chance was more flash than brilliance because it was hit straight at his chest.

Pickford seems to be permanently on edge, always dancing about because of that he is often further off his line than he should be when a shot comes in. Point in question being the Liverpool goal in the cup tie. And considering he is quite a bit shorter than most keepers he does seem to get down to chances slower than most too. Half of his reputation seems to come from the England team at the World Cup that didn't do half as well as the media tell you.

Mark Dunford
20 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:35:16
A very good keeper who makes the odd error and on Saturday he certainly made up for it. My guess is this wouldn't have attracted so much attention if the game hadn't been on live TV and Pickford may just have been wiser to ignore the fuss from the sofas. Everton's performances have improved remarkably since Silva left and we can live with odd glitch while such positive change is taking place. Reflection and change will come at the end of the season. In the meantime, the prospect of European football is something positive more to play for and far more than we could have dreamt of at the start of December.
Chris Green
21 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:41:01
Play well and you are doing your job; let in a crap goal... and you are useless. Being a goalkeeper is the hardest position on the pitch as there is no one there to sort out your mistakes. Calvert-Lewin, bless him, missed a sitter... but that won't be hauled over the coals.

Good on you Jordan, admitting it was an error, pulling off a worldy to keep it at 1-1. Keepers make mistakes... he needs to work on things, as do ALL keepers, but he is a very good keeper.

Phil Greenough
22 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:48:17
Yes, Pickford has his faults, but the whole team are capable of mistakes. Calvert-Lewin isn't getting half the criticism for his howler of a miss. You could argue it wasn't as important as the game was all but over, but his and Pickford's were both mistakes.

Just like Calvert-Lewin, Schneiderlin and possibly Walcott, let Mr Ancelloti work his magic, hopefully Pickford will absorb his advice and become a better player. After all, he could have another 15 years at Everton.

Ray Roche
23 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:50:03
Good point, Chris, re the absolute sitter that Calvert-Lewin missed which has not been mentioned. But it's okay not to mention it or slag him off for it because anyone who has kicked a ball at any standard will know that that sort of thing happens.

Calvert-Lewin scored one, made one and missed one. Pickford made a mistake which he made up for with a good save. Some of the World Class goalkeeping coaches on here will tell you it was an easy save.

Kevin O'Regan
24 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:55:27
I agree with Chris Green that goalkeepers have it tough when it comes to praise and criticism. One mistake will wipe out 10 excellent saves. But that's the life and position he chose and he needs to learn daily, cut out those stupid mistakes and also deal with the criticism.

And yes, do hold your hand up after a mistake rather than remain arrogant and that will go a long way to silencing many. And stay away from off-field scandals while you're at it.

Daniel A Johnson
25 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:56:40
Due to the position, it's black and white for goalkeepers. You either play well or you let in a howler.

He's Englands No 1 – a position he covets no doubt, and is proud of, due to that fact that he's under intense media scrutiny and any form of error will get people talking.

But Jordan needs to be honest with himself, he's been bang average for 2 seasons now and needs to realise that his position in the National team is seriously under threat. All the best keepers can make mistakes but its more Pickford's all-round play that worries me. As a keeper he doesn't inspire confidence, he lacks physical presence, lacks a cool head and is prone mentally to go AWOL. Plus his ball work and his Hollywood passing (supposedly his strength) more often than not is crap.

Despite that we need to keep and support him, we are weaker in other areas of the pitch and that needs addressing first.

Pickford needs to realise he's being criticised for a reason. Play well you get praise let in a bread and butter speculative shot from a yard dog such as Benteke and you will get criticised, it's simple, lad.

Daniel A Johnson
26 Posted 10/02/2020 at 09:59:33
The Calvert-Lewin comment is fair, his howler has been glossed over probably because he scored one and assisted another.

But if he had missed that shot and we were 1-0 down searching for an equaliser, he would have been pilloried.

Danny Broderick
27 Posted 10/02/2020 at 10:03:25
He needs to work on his non technical skills. He puts everyone on edge. He has ability, but the best keepers exert calmness and authority. He doesn’t do this.

If he can work on his concentration and composure, there is a good keeper in there somewhere. Fortunately, these skills can be worked on, and hopefully this would lead to less mistakes also.

Like Big Nev said, he needs to be more proactive not reactive, so he is not jumping all over the place like a box of frogs.

Sam Hoare
28 Posted 10/02/2020 at 10:10:37
Ray@17, all keepers make howlers from time to time. I'm not saying this as a reaction to Saturday but after looking at his stats and form over the last two to three years. I think Pope is marginally a better keeper than Pickford but its close and he wouldn't be my pick no.

Finding a new keeper is tough. Its a big change and is probably why he'll stay. But I think it may cost us.

From our league I'd take a good look at Henderson. Possibly the likes of Dubravka and Ryan or Ramsdale at a push.

In Europe i'd be looking at the likes of Benitez (Nice), Meret (Napoli), Pacheco (deportivo), Onana (Ajax), Larsonneur (Brest), Strakosha (Lazio). IN the championship I think that Brice Samba looks an interesting option. Wulker Farinez would be an exciting but leftfield keeper from Colombia, very talented but probably too small for our league.

Andrew Ellams
29 Posted 10/02/2020 at 10:11:54
Dominic Calvert-Lewin has come in for way more stick than Pickford over the last 2 years.
Kevin Prytherch
30 Posted 10/02/2020 at 10:25:14
I would disregard the Benteke goal as a mistake that he’ll probably never make again. The consistent shortcomings in his jumpiness, command of his area, poor decision making and general positioning are all areas he needs to work on.

He is a world class shot stopper, but not a good enough all round keeper yet. He is still young though.

Ray Roche
31 Posted 10/02/2020 at 10:28:33
Andrew @29

Yes Andrew, Calvert-Lewin has taken ridiculous abuse and criticism on here. Was it justified? Was it right to have a go at a young striker? He's still a young player even now so to give him stick at a time when he should have been getting encouragement is a disgrace. Thankfully it doesn't appear to have done him any harm.

Sam, I can't comment on the continental keepers you mention and the only Premier keeper that I would covet is Dubravka. But is he available? It's okay to point out good keepers but they need to be available and I can't see Dubravka moving for a reasonable fee.

Ryan has been criticised recently for a couple of flaky performances and Henderson is no better than Pickford.

Phil Lewis
32 Posted 10/02/2020 at 10:32:12
I cannot understand people commenting that other areas of team strengthening take priority. Goalkeeper is undoubtedly the most important position in any team. If your keeper is accident-prone, it's no use having Maradona, Messi, or Pele playing for you, as you will win nothing. Every successful team has an exceptional keeper.

Clough built a team of journeymen players around Peter Shilton to become champions of Europe. Kendal did similar with Southall and our all-conquering mid-eighties side. Do not be swayed by TW contributors trying to persuade that the game is different now. That is a nonsense argument in this instance. The goalkeeper conundrum is just as relevant now as it was then.

My opinion of Pickford is not based on Saturdays error, I have not been a fan since the word go. I wouldn't consider a keeper under 6ft 3ins tall for starters. That is my concession to the 'modern game'. (Shilton's lack of inches was compensated by excellent positional sense and exceptional athleticism.)

Pickford for me is a catalogue of inexcusable errors. Admittedly, he is capable of spectacular saves. But they do not balance out his faults. I want the lad to succeed, but I feel that my criticism is justified. We should buy another keeper to give him competition at least.

In the sixties we had three top keepers in West, Rankin and Barnet all competing to be first choice. Catterick knew the importance of the goalkeeping position, plus the need for competition in the event of loss of form. The fact that Pickford seems to be an automatic choice is unhealthy in itself. In every other position, there is competition for places, goalkeeper should be no different.

Steve Shave
33 Posted 10/02/2020 at 10:44:18
Oh are we still debating if he is 'totally shit' or just 'shit' instead of getting behind the lad? That really does surprise me... yawn. He is England's No 1, we can't get better right now (nor can we afford to) so just support him.

I wonder what he (and others) could do on a Saturday if they felt the love and support of the crowd rather than just live in fear of the next mistake they'll get lambasted for? It's no longer the '80s – deal with it and act accordingly!

John Raftery
34 Posted 10/02/2020 at 11:02:55
I cheer every player who plays for us once they are out on the pitch. I had doubts about Pickford when I saw him at Goodison playing for Sunderland a few months before he signed for us. I hoped he might develop into a long term custodian for us. He made a great save near the end of his first Premier League match for us against Stoke which went some way to reassuring me. Unfortunately he has gone backwards like many England keepers do once they think they have established themselves.

His excitable behaviour is not caused by immaturity related to age and inexperience as much as they are by personality issues. I have thought for over two years he does not have the temperament to be a reliable, calming presence in the team. Like all keepers he will continue to make great saves but would you have this keeper playing for your life? His great save on Saturday was instinctive in that he simply made himself as big as he could with the header from Benteke hitting him. All keepers make those sort of saves but they do not compensate for the number of mistakes or lack of assurance behind the defence.

Had Saturday’s howler been his only mistake this season it would have been excusable. Regrettably it followed several goals where fans were left asking ‘how did that go in?’ Soft goals conceded from direct free kicks and corners have exposed his weaknesses. Until recently I would have agreed with those who say Pickford is not our biggest problem. But he is getting there.

Bill Fairfield
35 Posted 10/02/2020 at 11:12:29
Pickford makes things worse by talking to the press as you said Jordan just get on with it because it sounds like it is bothering you with those comments
Phil Lewis
36 Posted 10/02/2020 at 11:16:15
Steve#33
The era is of no consequence, whether it be the '80s or the present day. We as supporters are fully entitled to make constructive criticism of any player where it is justified. I have been attending Goodison Park for almost 60 years and I can assure you that has always been the case. These are millionaire professionals we are talking about today, a far cry from players in the past who were paid little more than top tradesmens wages for doing the same job. It doesn't matter how much you 'love and support' someone, if they are not performing to a consistent standard, then they will invite criticism. That is the real world. It always has been and always will.
Steve Carse
37 Posted 10/02/2020 at 11:42:41
Interesting that Pickford saw Benteke's effort as one to use his feet to save with. To me it looked like one that he only needed to get his whole body behind to stop any chance of it going in. It got me wondering if such decisions are ones he makes naturally or whether it's a matter of coaching. And in Pickford's defence I make it that in his time at Everton and taking account of his training with the national team, he's been under the tutelage of five or six different goalkeeping coaches! The fact that each of these guys will have had different perspectives on the decisions Pickford should make might partly explain his obvious uncertainties now over things like the use of his feet, whether to come for crosses, whether to save with stiff or soft wrists, when to kick it long etc.
Ray Roche
38 Posted 10/02/2020 at 11:53:32
Phil Lewis@36

''We as supporters are fully entitled to make constructive criticism of any player where it is justified.''
Correct Phil. I have been going to GP a similar length of time to yourself, 1959 to be exact, but I fail to see how ''You're f****** shite'' is constructive criticism, especially when screamed by some beer filled, red faced blowhard who's never kicked a ball in his life, (and who looks like he's a stranger to a salad so his fitness levels may be in question) yet I've witnessed that with depressing regularity in Gwladys St every week. Once Hibbert and Osman retired it was open season on anyone who'd come through the ranks, ie, Barkley, Davies, DCL, Holgate etc.
Criticism is one thing, but the level of vitriol from some ''fans'' won't improve anyone's performance.

Ray Roche
39 Posted 10/02/2020 at 11:59:52
Sam, apologies, I misread your post, confusing Henderson with Henessey, the Wales keeper. Henderson looks a good keeper, no question, but whether he'd leave Sheffield and the certainty of European football is open to debate. And he's also Manchester United's property so he may be their long term solution to De Gea when he leaves.
Steve Carse
40 Posted 10/02/2020 at 12:03:20
Ray (38), so if the criticism is coming from a fit looking teetotaller you find it more acceptable. Strange that.
And then you bring out the old chestnut about the younger players being the only ones to bear the brunt of the criticism. Clearly you've had your fingers in your ears at all the times in recent years it has been directed at Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson, Keane, Walcott, Howard
Brent Stephens
41 Posted 10/02/2020 at 12:05:36
Ray, #38, the away games are a mixed experience. The level of commitment etc is tremendous. But boy for a few it takes only a few poor touches for that venom to emerge - ale-fuelled as you say, between bites of their salad sandwiches.
Andrew Ellams
42 Posted 10/02/2020 at 12:12:52
Ray @ 39, I guess with Henderson he won't to be hanging on in until De Gea moves on, especially now he's had a taste of PL football and the England squad so he could be open to offers once his Sheffield United deal expires in June. Then if we did want him it would be down to Brands to go get him.
Steve Shave
43 Posted 10/02/2020 at 12:26:02
Ray 38 totally agree with you regarding what is and isn't "constructive criticism". Yes Pickford is erratic and yes he is a big of a buffoon (recent press comments only endorse this as they were poorly thought out). However, he is our buffoon and the England no 1, let's get behind him, we do that he will grow, not shit himself everytime the ball is pumped into the box.
Sam Hoare
44 Posted 10/02/2020 at 12:29:26
Ray/Andrew it will be worth watching the Henderson/De Gea situation. Both will expect to be first choice next season. Both are better than Pickford in my opinion. Though both would cost a fair bit.

I suspect what funds there are will be allocated to other areas, unless someone out there offers us £30-40m for Pickford I expect him to be here next season. But he really has not been a good keeper for us over the last two years I'm afraid.

Phil Bellis
45 Posted 10/02/2020 at 12:30:19
I still blame Rankin for the 1967 cup defeat at Forest; nowhere near West in ability

As for Pickford, being the same height as wee Neville Southall shouldn't be a problem

Ray Roche
46 Posted 10/02/2020 at 12:45:46
Brent, Surely all our brilliant away fans are vegan?
😁
Brent Stephens
47 Posted 10/02/2020 at 12:53:16
Quinoa fans, Ray.
Phil Lewis
48 Posted 10/02/2020 at 12:53:57
Ray#38
I would agree agree with you to a point. But at the same time, just as I feel that VAR, also rules that make the game less of a contact sport and Television's overall control, has diminished the games impact, I wouldn't want fans reactions to become genteel and sanitised. Football traditionally is a place for people to let off steam.
What saddens me, is that I observe a total lack of humour in fans comments at Goodison today. It is often as you point out, hateful and usually delivered by morons. But they've paid for their seat, so I suppose in their minds, spiteful vitriolic nastiness is justified. They're usually the neanderthal 'road-rage' types that you've described.
You must surely remember as I do, the numerous colourful characters on the terraces years ago, who would have us in stitches with their hilarious running commentaries of players, officials and managers alike. It made a match day experience at Goodison all the more memorable for everyone.
The problem I fear, is a societal one, not confined to Everton fans.
Ray Roche
49 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:00:29
Steve Carse@40

Steve, nothing strange about thinking that someone who has never kicked a ball in anger can appreciate that, sometimes, you can make a mistake and what seems to be an easy save/shot doesn't always come off. And nowhere do I say that it is EXCLUSIVELY the younger players who attract criticism. I hear Schneiderlin, Siggy et all get loads of abuse. Do you think that that will make them play better. Serious question, do you?

Ray Roche
50 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:03:48
Andrew42, Sam44,

Yes, you're right about Henderson, it might be worth keeping an eye on his situation. I would hope that Brands is already aware of it, providing, of course, that he regards Pickford in such low esteem. He may think that he is worth persevering with and hoping that Carlo can polish off the rough edges.

Joe McMahon
51 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:10:12
Being a Premier League footballer is a privileged life, all the players have to remember that. Most of us have to go through shit week in week out for an annual income that these guys earns in 3 days. I do expect a keeper to make the occaisional howler, but not every game. Our goal difference is woeful and he costs us points.

Newcastle and Liverpool fans can't get enough of him, it's embarassing, and it needs to stop.

Ray Roche
52 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:11:23
Phil, that's a good point that you've raised. At one time going the match was not just a football experience, but a time when you'd end up peeing yourself laughing at some of the comedians on the terraces. Doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much fun at the match these days. Is it a social problem? I don't know, but you rarely hear the much vaunted ''scouse humour'' on display.

The only funny comment for several matches was actually on Saturday.Someone was down injured, Richarlison I think, and Pickford put the ball into touch so the trainer could come on. ''Pickford, that was shite''...the only thing approaching humour in the 90 minutes.

Ray Roche
53 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:14:40
Brent, Quinoa! Sorry, I should have known. Frightfully remiss of me.
Phil Lewis
54 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:26:17
Phil#45
I have to admit mate, Andy Rankin broke my 14 year old heart that day, but I stand by my comment that both he and Geoff Barnet (who incidentally went on to a great career at Arsenal), were both great understudies to Westie, who I agree, was different class. I mentioned them mainly to emphasise the need for us to have at least one other quality keeper on the books. If for no other reason than to give us an alternative to Pickford and create more competition. They talk of the importance of a goalkeepers distribution skills today, Gordon could collect the ball in the air and throw it out with pinpoint accuracy to his winger, usually 'Moggsy' stood on the halfway line, all in one movement.
I chuckled at your mention of 'wee' Neville Southall. But I'm sorry mate, their height is were the comparison ends.

I sincerely hope that in time, the lad makes me eat my words, but from what I've seen so far, Pickford is not in the same league as Southall.
Before you say it, I'll beat you to it, I know. Who is?

Alan J Thompson
55 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:32:53
We could sign that Brazilian (our preferred nationality?) keeper WEverton and that bloke Everton on the wing which would just leave us looking for a red haired Ozzie named Bluey and a Spaniard called Toffy and we'd have the complete set, that is if you include a centre forward named DC and another called Digne.

Meanwhile, there aren't many better keepers than Pickford.

Tom Bowers
56 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:34:49
Sorry but Henderson is no better than Pickford.
Saw him yesterday and he made some glaring errors immediately after making a good save which proves my point that all keepers are error prone and the best are usually those who keep those errors to an absolute minimum.
Richard Farrington
57 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:41:49
Ray, (52). I am a season ticket holder in the Peoples Club.

The reason the shouts and banter don't go on anymore is down to the modern world and fear of offending someone.

It's sad. It's shite. It's how it is and I hate it.

Football was a release for men back in the 50's to 80's. Times have changed and some are too easily offended and the shouts have gone due to this.

I'll still be at Arsenal a week on Sunday though for the modern terms, like LIMBS!!!

Hope we get some as we have never won at that ground I don't think.

UTFT

Dave Evans
58 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:46:23
Pickford's form hasn't been great but for some supporters it is his turn in their hyperbolic 'slag-off stocks'.
Holgate's been there, so has DCL. Davis is still in 'em.
Coleman has been in the stocks. Walcott has never been out.
Mina and Keane are in and out of them {Keane gets let out when he isn't playing}
Delph and Schneiderlin have their own custom made stocks. The key has been lost for Siggy's.
Sidebe is next in queue. Bernard and Richy managed to escape a couple of weeks ago. The rest are temporarily pardoned through injury.
"Fans have a right to criticise" ? Of course we do. But it seems that, sometimes, some people are on a carousel of exaggeration that turns from one player to another, in a cyclic 'spit fest'.

It's all about opinion. But opinions that are exaggerated, lack perspective or are so quickly discredited, as players go in and out of form are, in my opinion, not worth a badger's bean.

Brian Harrison
59 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:49:22
I am amazed at some of the comments on here, you would think it was only Everton fans who had a go at there own players. I think its just natural for fans to have a go at a player or players who they don't think are performing to anything like there normal standard. Go and ask Karius did he feel the support of the fans after the Champions league final against Real Madrid, in fact he didnt get any support from his fellow players at the end of the game.

Does it do any good having a go at a player absolutely not but its done out of frustration more than anything else. And lets not forget Evertonians have more to be frustrated with than a lot of other teams.
As for the comment about the body shape of the supporter and not likely to have had a salad is sanctimonious bollocks. As for asking for fans to give constructive criticism, well let me know when your next a game when a player makes a mess and you hear a fan saying come along Jordan or Tom or Morgan you should have been a little more careful, but never mind play up the blues. Maybe at Eton or Harrow you may here this but football is a working class game bye and large watched predominantly by working class people. so expect strong abusive language and as long as the abuse isn't racist or homophobic or religious than thats OK in my book.

Ray Robinson
60 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:52:06
But for shit goalkeeping, Liverpool wouldn't have scraped a 1-0 win at Bramhall Lane this season but, hey, he's not our keeper, so it's ok for Henderson ito drop a clanger. Same as Pope against Chelsea, Kepa and Leno on numerous occasions. He best keepers are the ones that drop the fewest clangers - but they all do. Seaman against Brazil in the World Cup?
Steve Carse
61 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:57:44
Ray (49), I didn't refer to the issue of whether not having ever played football means a reduced credibility should be attached to ones views. On the issue of attacks on the younger players, no you didn't say this was restricted to them only, but then why mention it, unless you believe it is loaded against them, and if you do then my criticism of your post still holds.
My post didn't reference whether criticism can ever be good but since you ask I'll give my opinion. Personally I doubt it. But in any debate, you need to differentiate between the collective groan following, for example, a misplaced pass (which can be very audible) and the verbal (often targetted) outpourings of the individual fan. I hear a great deal of the former but far, far less of the latter, though undoubtedly the latter is on the increase, perhaps, as others have noted, a reflection of what is now an altogether more aggressive society.
On
Steve Carse
62 Posted 10/02/2020 at 13:57:45
Ray (49), I didn't refer to the issue of whether not having ever played football means a reduced credibility should be attached to ones views. On the issue of attacks on the younger players, no you didn't say this was restricted to them only, but then why mention it, unless you believe it is loaded against them, and if you do then my criticism of your post still holds.
My post didn't reference whether criticism can ever be good but since you ask I'll give my opinion. Personally I doubt it. But in any debate, you need to differentiate between the collective groan following, for example, a misplaced pass (which can be very audible) and the verbal (often targetted) outpourings of the individual fan. I hear a great deal of the former but far, far less of the latter, though undoubtedly the latter is on the increase, perhaps, as others have noted, a reflection of what is now an altogether more aggressive society.
On
Phil Lewis
63 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:04:59
Brian#59
I am proud of my working class heritage. But it is a fact that many football fans are sadly, of the 'Chubby Brown' mentality. So that kind of torpedoes your theories on abuse right out of the water.
Dave Evans
64 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:10:26
Brian Harrison.
That's your working class credentials nailed to the mast.
One Liverpool 8/Huyton here. I think your wrong.

To me it is laughable to see some fans in endless cycles go from one player to another slagging them off. In the ground or on here.
If it's abuse it can be dealt with. If it is offered as opinion it isn't worth the spit coming from their mouths.

Ray Roche
65 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:10:49
Steve, yes, it's not the collective groan of disappointment that pisses me off, I'm as guilty as the next man for that,it's the screaming of vitriolic abuse at players who may be standing close to the touchline and well in earshot of the fan that disappoints. It is counter productive. It must have an effect on a younger player more than a mature International like Schneiderlin. Who has, incidentally, been excellent the past game or so. Maybe he's benefiting from Carlo's influence.

Maybe you're right about the ''aggressive society'', when you see the amount of road rage it's probably a lot more aggressive now than years ago.

Graeme Beresford
66 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:12:52
I’ve used this forum many times to criticise Pickford and I’m not even going to waste my time typing it anymore. One thing I will say is, Pickford you piss us off every week with your inability to save simple shots.

Do one.

Sam Hoare
67 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:15:58
Every keeper drops clangers. Saying Pope isn't a good keeper because he made a mistake last week or Henderson isn't a good keeper because he made a mistake this week is missing the point.

Its about looking at how many mistakes they make and how many saves they make over the course of 25-100 games.

Over the 25/26 PL games they have both played this season Henderson has performed markedly better than Pickford.

Ray Roche
68 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:17:27
Brian Harrison,

I'll join Dave and Phil with the whole working class thingy, Roby/Huyton in my case. And you? Harrow? Eton? Oxbridge? ;-)
The reference to the lard arse screeching abuse is that someone who has never tried something is hardly in a position to criticise someone who (usually) CAN.
Like a golfer missing a three foot putt. Pro golfers still miss short putts that would embarrass me as a Sunday morning player. Doesn't make them ''shite'' though. It makes them human.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

69 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:18:11
Jordan Pickford appears to be a real 'Marmite' player with many Blues. You hate him, or love him.

There was clearly a lot of love for him from all quarters when he first joined us from Sunderland. In his first season he made a clean sweep of the annual club awards.

Fans' player of the season.
Fans' young player of the season.
Players' player of the season.

Some regard his perceived 'shortness' for a modern-day keeper as a liability.

Some question his ability to command his penalty area.

Some question his all-round technique.

But possibly more to the fore than any other trait or characteristic of Jordan, many question his temperament.

Personally, I'm always a little bit suspect when people start making extravagant claims about a person's mental capacities and stability based solely on what they see and perceive of them from watching a game of football, as many do about Jordan.

In this thread alone you can see many such disparaging comments about his 'immaturity', 'madness', 'insanity'. That he is, and puts many, 'always on edge', 'jittery', 'lacks a cool head', 'mentally goes AWOL'.

I rather like that Jordan reiterates, not for the first time, that he has the strength of character to put mistakes immediately behind him and focus on the job in hand. He did that spectacularly with the excellent save from Benteke moments after Everton had re-taken the lead.

Those determined to see nothing positive in Jordan Pickford the goalkeeper steadfastly refuse to acknowledge how good - and how deliberate - a save that was.

Has Jordan Pickford made some howlers in his Everton career? Absolutely. But it is not exclusive to him in that small band of PL goalkeepers. Post-match Saturday he was brutally honest about the goal, describing his effort to save it as 'disgusting'.

Does he fail to command his back line? Not from what I see and hear! He is evidently VERY vocal, whoever you are, whatever your reputation. I still remember him in one of his early games giving Wayne Rooney a right earful for pissing about and losing the ball on the edge of the penalty area.

And that leads me on to Sam Hoare's stats that he quotes. Here is one such site with the numbers. Scroll down to the second table which you can filter in many ways.

Link

For the most part, Jordan Pickford has been playing with a dysfunctional defence in front of him in his time at Everton. Very much under Silva this season we were given up triple AAA scoring opportunities to the opposition. Jordan saved our arse in many memorable one-on-one duels. He cannot be expected to save them all. But as a result of the defence in front of him not doing their job, his numbers can look bad.

I'm with those still very much on-board with Jordan Pickford. Yes, he and the squad could benefit from having a better quality challenger for his position at the club.

That is where the goalkeeping transfer budget should be pitched at. Not some extravagant wheeler-dealing of offloading Jordan and rolling the dice on some equally high-priced replacement.

Our priorities in the summer transfer window should lay elsewhere, IMO.

John Keating
70 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:23:38
So we'll all go the match straight from mass, holding each others hands apart from clapping when something good happens
I one of our multi millionaires makes a fuck up well we can either say nothing or just clap and wish him well next time.

We.ve been doing what we are doing now since I can remember, the Carey days, now all of a sudden political correctness is alive and well at the footy and we are not allow to criticize anything that happens because it might upset the player involved or the supporters.
Oh yes and we shouldn't have a drink before the match.

Really is time to pack in the match and just watch it on the telly. Wonder if the dog will get upset if I shout at the telly

Brian Cleveland
71 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:25:07
Sam (28), Fariñez is Venezuelan, not Colombian... And is someone I've mentioned before. He played against England in the sub20 if I remember rightly. Was that the final DCL scored the only goal to win the tournament?

He is a very good keeper, but is only 5'10 so would probably be easily bullied at corners by the taller players in our league. Not looked out of place yet though in the full national team.

Ray Roche
72 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:25:31
Jay Wood69

''Jordan Pickford appears to be a real 'Marmite' player with many Blues. ''

Disgusting?

Brian Harrison
73 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:26:01
Phil 63

When were you elected as the policeman of Everton fans to decide what is acceptable to shout at players, or what body shape is allowed to be critical as I said sanctimonious bollocks. Obviously Pickfords wife or partner I am not sure which isn't feeling any distress from the criticism Jordan got on Saturday. As she posts a picture of herself sipping cocktails at the side of their 5 star hotel in Morroco that her and Jordan are staying during the break.

Ray Roche
74 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:43:04
Brian73

It wasn't Phil who made a light hearted reference to some lard arse who couldn't kick a ball but would happily screech abuse at someone who could, it was me. And Phil, you, me, we're all entitled to our opinion. Like Phil and others, I despair at ''fans'' who do nothing but scream at players in the belief that it will improve the players performance. It won't. (I've hear some bellend in the St End shouting at Osman BEFORE kick off.)
Generally, I try not to be TOO serious on TW, there are enough doom mongers as it is, and being descriptive regarding the fat, piss headed (and racist) cretin who used to berate the players is an attempt at humour. If I really said what I think you WOULD be upset. And I'd get a ban.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

75 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:43:28
BTW, unfortunately, Richarlison may well be busy with Brazil again this summer.

In the last couple of weeks the younger Brazilian hopefuls have been competing with all the other Latin America countries in an Olympic qualifying competition.

Last night, in the final game, Brazil HAD to win against arch-rivals Argentina, who had already qualified for the Olympics, to secure their place in Tokyo as the defending champions.

The Argies started well but within 30 minutes Brazil were 2-0 up and had a firm grip on the game. They didn't loosen it and won 3-0 in the end.

With teams largely limited to fielding U-23s, expect Richarlison to be on call to join the squad. He will want to play, I'm sure of that.

It's not only the loss of recuperation time he potentially loses, but given the dates of the Tokyo games he would also miss some games at the start of the PL season.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

76 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:49:04
Ray @ 72.

'Disgusting!' is how Jordan described his own attempts to save the Benteke goal.

D'ya think we can conclude from that JP isn't a marmite-lover?

Danny Broderick
77 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:53:18
Pickford is 6'-1". He has his faults but he is not too small.
James Flynn
78 Posted 10/02/2020 at 14:56:30
Pickford is not improving. That's the problem.

Brands' not blind. If he thinks there's someone out there to challenge Pickford, I'm sure he'll talk to Carlo.


Ray Roche
79 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:05:49
Jay76,

Yeah, I thought it was funny that Pickford/Marmite/Disgusting would all appear in the same post!

John McFarlane Snr
80 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:24:18
Hi Ray various posts up to [65] I echo your sentiments, there is a difference between criticism and abuse. I, [like any most other supporters] express disappointment when players make mistakes, but I have never been guilty of abusing them. I will also say that anyone who has played the game at any level, will appreciate that mistakes are inevitable, and the salary that some players receive has got no bearing in the matter. I wouldn't for instance say, of a goalkeeper, "He should have saved that effort because he's on X amount of pounds" My reaction would be "He should have saved that effort.

I believe that the supporter of today is more demanding and less tolerant, they are expecting perfection from their own team, and are willing to accept any mistake that the opposition may present them with.

My pet example of this is, Dominic Calvert Lewin, could unleash a powerful strike from 30 yards and the view would be "No keeper in the world would have saved that" Two minutes later, the opposing striker could score an identical goal and the cry would be, "He should have been closed down," or "Pickford was too far off his line." Identical goals but received in different a way. Footballers are humans and not robots, if we recognise this I'm sure we'll get much more enjoyment from our match-day experience.

Dave Evans
81 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:25:31
John 70
Always nice to here someone take a crumb of what they thought someone said and blow it to infinity to make a point.

Good laugh though.

Hope that dog of yours still has all its legs the next time Pickford makes an error.

Brian Williams
82 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:31:32
John Mc#84.
Very wise words John, very wise indeed.
Carl Manning
83 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:39:29
I gave up listening to fans have a pop at players a few years back when I was in the Bernabeu and heard the Real Madrid fans booing and whistling Iker Casillas before he left for Porto.

If it can happen to one of the greatest of all time, a World Cup winner, 2-time European Championship winner, over 100 caps for Spain, 3 Champions League, 5 leagues.... I've got bored of recounting his honors — Jordan has no chance of getting an easy ride!

Ray Roche
84 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:41:09
John Snr.

Thanks for the approval John. Good to see that you're still the voice of experience and common sense. Your example of the DCL scenario hits the nail on the head.

Lennart Hylen
85 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:42:20
Brian # 7 I fully agree.

All players make mistakes. All people make mistakes at work.
We won dispite the mistake so whats the big deal? It was annoying but in the end we won. Support Carlo and his boys. See the positives, COYB

Ray Roche
86 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:42:26
Jay86

Are you watching the match Jay?

Sam Bowen
87 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:42:54
It’s really not the howlers that concern me with Pickford, they can happen to any keeper. It’s purely his inability to keep out as many shots as he should. As Sam Hoare rightly points out, his save percentage is below par and I don’t need stats to tell me that. You watch the goals against us this season and you’ll find numerous where you’ll look at them and think, mmmmmm, ho could have done better there. Not glaring mistakes but if he was as good a shot stopper as some think then he would really have been saving more of them.

There’s nothing wrong with questioning him, I slagged him off for the mistake and also jumped out of my seat when he made that incredible save and cheered it like a goal. He is capable of those kind of saves but what he isn’t consistently doing and never has in his career is produce normal, calm, unnoticed consistent levels of performance. He’s always been a keeper who lets in a lot of goals, I worry about that.

James Stewart
88 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:45:57
Pickford is currently a below average keeper. If you look at the expected save stats he has let in more than he should have and ultimately cost us valuable points.

His distribution can be an asset but it’s not worth the blunders, he needs to improve quickly or he will be swiftly replaced.

Steve Ferns
89 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:46:44
Carl, I'd certainly echo the sentiment, but I was never a fan of Iker Casillas. I always thought he was the most overrated goalkeeper of all time. But, you must be right as you don't win all those gongs unless you are that good. He's still yet to return to action for Porto after that heart attack and his wife has cancer, so I think he'll retire to focus on their respective health issues.
Jay Tee
90 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:46:53
Load of rubbish, "Foot Save" my ar*se, it went under his body lying flat on the ground. Just apologise stupid, it was a mistake. He is good a reactive saves, sh-te at others but he has kept us in with a chance or ahead more than he co-ks up. Gets a plus from me for that.
Gaute Lie
91 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:47:37
He does make mistakes. Just proves hes not a robot.
At least he cares for our team. Can not say the same for all our players.
Steve Ferns
92 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:49:01
Jay, he did apologise. He said it was "disgusting" on the BT interview before he even left the pitch. I watched him and DCL be interviewed, DCL had to nick the physio's coat after giving his shirt to the mini pitch invader.
Mark Guglielmo
93 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:57:04
Derek 3 - I didn't get further than your comment yet so apologies if he's been mentioned already, but check out Lazio's keeper, Thomas Strakosha. He's 2 years younger, signed through '22, and valued at roughly £22m (compared to Pickford at roughly £30m).

Assuming no one pays (much) attention to Serie A, Lazio is in 3rd, 1 pt off Juventus/Inter at the top of the table. Strakosha has conceded 19 (non-pen) goals in 23 matches (~2,100 minutes) vs Pickford who's conceded 37 (non-pen) goals in 26 matches (~2,350 minutes).

Strakosha has a 78% save rate (19 goals, 71 shots), compared to Pickford's 63% (37 goals, 100 shots). Strakosha's distribution has produced a pass completion of 76%, compared to Pickford's 56%. And Strakosha has 8 clean sheets compared to Pickford's 6.

He's my top choice by far, and there's no question Ancelotti is familiar with him, which means Brands is too.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

94 Posted 10/02/2020 at 15:57:31
Ray @ 91.

No, not able to watch the game. I wish! Just followed the live text on the club site. 4-0 it remained at the final whistle. Simms hit the bar in the final minute to be denied his hat-trick.

Steve @ 97. Talking of players nicking coats, did you see the short footage doing the rounds of Sidibe on the touchline Saturday when he was FINALLY properly attired to enter the fray?

In the background you can see Tom Davies and Mason Holgate playing paper-rock-scissors. It was seemingly to contest who was going to claim Sidibe's jacket as an extra layer on a bittingly cold day, I understand!

Joe McMahon
95 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:00:13
Carl @ 88, that's crazy isn't it, now he really was a quality keeper.
Mike Gaynes
96 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:06:08
Steve, gotta disagree with you on Saint Iker. He wasn't strong in the air like English fans admire in keepers, and he certainly had a howler or two in him, but as a pure shot-stopper he had incredible quickness and anticipation. His roster of miracle saves is longer than any other keeper I've seen in the past 20 years. And he had no peer at big moments -- in the final minutes of the most important games, his arms just seemed to get longer. At those moments he simply couldn't be beaten.
Shaun McGough
98 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:10:06
It must take its toll getting criticised so much when you make mistakes. Just look at what has happened to liverpools keepers specially the joke one they put in goal in the cup,??????, come on England?????.
Danny O'Neill
99 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:10:49
Agree with Paul Tran @2. Good keeper in the making if he sorts his head out and calms the proverbial down; his “rush of blood” tendency impacts his decision making. Still young in keeper terms too, so if he listens & learns, he could go onto great things. We have a history in this country of destroying keepers when they are still young. They don’t peak until their 30s in general.

That’s my defence. Conversely & reading between the lines, his instant reference to England indicates that this is focus. A country over club player. Dangerous territory as he’s assuming he’ll always be picked for England regardless of club form & that’s what matters to him. I could be over-analysing, but that’s what cam to mind when I read his interview.

He’s too comfortable knowing he’s first choice at club & country, regardless of from. He needs competition at club to incentivise his performances; no club. no country.

Bill Gall
100 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:11:48
I wonder how many people criticizing Pickford have ever played in goal. Keepers are a rare breed, even starting as kids it was always hard to get someone to play in goal, and to find someone who wanted to play in goal was a rarity.
Goalkeepers like N. Southall with his natural ability have become the yardstick for following keepers at Everton and they are all mostly judged on his standards especially if he makes a mistake.
Pickford made a mistake and admits to it yet no one mentions how Benteke was given so much room to stride forward to shoot on goal. I doubt if there is anyone on this forum that has not made a mistake in their lifetime, it is what you do to rectify the mistake after it, that matters more.
Pickford is a good keeper and as in all positions there are better, the problem is that clubs who may have someone better are not going to let them go, as it it such a critical position to replace.
D.C.L. made a mistake missing a goal from about 6ft out, but no one is criticizing him as we won.
Can anyone recommend another keeper we can buy, who they can guarantee will not make a mistake. I don't see many N.Southall or G.Banks for sale.

Steve Ferns
101 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:12:06
Mike, I despise Real Madrid more than any other club. See Franco, Fascism, Spanish Royalty, 100 years of constant cheating and financial doping as to why. So that probably clouds my judgement. As you say, Casillas made a lot of howlers and being 6 foot, and Spanish, he was dreadful in the air. I never liked Keepers in short sleeves back in those days either. Made them look like they weren't prepared to throw themselves about. He was also a tit in the stuff he did and said. Just never liked him, and all the howlers gave him every reason to justify it. He doesn't even make my top 100 keepers of all time. Not fit to lace Neville Southall's boots.
Steve Ferns
102 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:12:45
Yes Jay, it was highlighted by Match of the Day. I still cannot believe Sidibe / the kitman over that one. I saw Carlo looked like he’d kill someone over it. Hopefully, he let the anger subside after we won. I hope Jimmy Martin still has his job!
Brent Stephens
103 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:15:47
Steve, it could be 5 at the back (or 3 plus wing backs, depending how you see it!). We played, e.g at Leicester, a back 5 of John, Astely, Ouzounidis, Anderson, Foulds.
Steve Ferns
104 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:17:48
Bill, how about David Raya? Not seen a whole bunch of him, but he's been excellent every time I have seen them? He's only young and could be available relatively cheap?
Ray Robinson
105 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:22:00
Danny #107, you need to read the article in the Times today where he categorically states that Everton is his priority and that if he plays well for his club, being picked for his country will look after itself. I agree though that he needs to be pushed by a worthy competitor at club level. Just how many clubs can afford to have a very capable reserve sitting on the bench though?
Joe McMahon
106 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:38:28
Steve Ferns, he wasn't that bad, although my favourite overseas keeper was/is Buffon. I'm still in awe at Gordan Banks penalty save for stoke v Geoff Hurst (who could smash them), but to me in my life time the best were Nev and Pat Jennings.
Danny O'Neill
107 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:39:52
I have Ray hence my “probably over analysing” caveat on my own comment. I just always get suspicious when Everton players come out with England references in their statements. It is likely I’m scarred after years of losing our favourites once they get consumed by the self appreciating machine that is the England football setup!!

Fair play to the lad for accepting & acknowledging the mistake, but this was for Everton & nothing to do with England. He was criticised & “targeted” because he made a basic mistake that led to a potentially point losing outcome playing for Everton. I don’t think anyone criticised him or picked on him because he plays for England.

If Crystal Palace’s keeper had made the same mistake, he’d have been called out for it.

He’s a good keeper in the making. Back to my previous, a bit of anger management & maturity would help a lot with his decision making.

James Hughes
108 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:42:01
Goalie is the worst position on the pitch. If you have a decent game no one notices, have a good game and you might get a well done. Have a bad game then you end up in a long thread.

I still believe Pickford needs to ignore the crowd more than he does. He pays too much attention to them, Newcastle and the RS has sown the seeds for far too many fans not to use.

If he has doubts and feels sorry for himself, the he should talk to Alex Williams, the ex Man City keeper. He got a torrid time from the Gwladys st.

Bill Gall
109 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:43:42
Steve is that the keeper who plays for Brentford he is Spanish about 22-25 yrs old. Never seen him but read about him.
Danny O'Neill
110 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:44:25
Neville & Pat Jennings definitely Joe although with fear of committing online ToffeeWeb blasphemy, Jennings edges it (and I watched both).
Ray Roche
111 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:47:16
I watched both as well Danny and Neville was, in my opinion, the best, edging out Peter Schmeichel.
Alan J Thompson
112 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:49:27
So you must be a good keeper if you play in a team that wins a lot and quite often. Other than 1966 what did Gordon Banks win with his League clubs? I tend to think there may be a bit more to it than what's in the medal cabinet.
Danny O'Neill
113 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:52:13
Interesting we haven’t mentioned Clemence or Shilton in this. I don’t think they were as good as the 3 we mention (including Schmeichel in that Ray - acknowledged). Also Seaman. I personally never rated. I think any keeper (within reason obviously) could have looked good with “that” Arsenal defence in front of them.
Danny O'Neill
114 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:56:12
Good point Alan. Sometimes great keepers are those who don’t have the fortune of being protected by a good defence.

Shout out to Nigel Martin, especially in his twilight years at Everton?

And probably a reverse argument to my David Seaman point (as in not such a great keeper protected by a tight defence)

Andy Wilkinson
115 Posted 10/02/2020 at 16:59:24
DCL's miss at the end was a similar level error to Pickford's. DCL was fortunate that the game was safe by this stage. But the two similar errors get treated differently because letting a goal in is always seen as worse than failing to score when you should. All players will make mistakes, though they will perform better (and make fewer mistakes) the more the crowd lift them and give them confidence and belief.

Like Pickford or not, whilst he ours, lets do what we can to lift him. He's not so stupid not to realise he totally messed up and sure he'll be livid with himself. And if decisions need to be taken about getting another keeper in, lets trust Carlo/Brands to do their job.

Don't get me wrong - I was furious with the Palace goal - but we need to ensure our passion for EFC has a positive impact on both players and the club and we don't self destruct as we seem to do far too often.

Ray Roche
116 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:00:17
Yes Danny, that's a point often overlooked, the defence in front of the keeper can make or break a goalie. However, a great keeper is there when he's needed and Neville invariably was. He could be stood there for 89 minutes but pulled of a great save when required.
I remember Shilton conceding seven against us at Goodison in November 1968 when he was first in the Leicester team. Didn't have a bad career afterwards though. But as I said earlier in this thread, he took loads of criticism over his performance against Argentina when Maradona scored the Hand Of God goal. Deservedly so.
Steve Ferns
117 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:03:45
Bill, yes. The Brentford keeper, looks past the howler he conceded last week though!

Joe, Gigi Buffon is the best keeper of the Premier League era for me. Long me he continue as when he hangs the gloves up I don’t think there’s anyone left older than me!

Dave Abrahams
118 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:06:01
Joe (115), yes I often mention that penalty save, Banks against Hurst, and Hurst rally banged that one, Banks just stood his ground and never moved or flinched until Hurst banged it in and Banksie turned it away, a terrific save, was it it a semi final of a league cup tie?
Joe McMahon
119 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:07:22
Ray & Danny, damn it, I forgot Peter Schmeichel, yes top-top keeper. I do also thank that Nigel Martyn, has been the best England keeper since the days of Clemence, Shilton. Slighty unlucky (due to competing with them two) Joe Corrigan.
Steve Ferns
120 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:13:44
Danny, I think you missed what Pickford was trying to say about England. If he was not English, then he’d get stick off us, and in some quarters but nothing like he has done. His point is that the English press build ‘em up and knock ‘em down. They’re having a go at knocking him down now.

Just look at Pope. No one shines a spotlight on him. He’s having a poor season. Burnley are a poor side. He is mostly shown on MOTD making saves as Burnley are under the cosh. No one cares about his mistakes. Dubravka has made some great saves and won games single handedly for Newcastle. But he’s had a few howlers and cost them goals too. He gets away with that because there’s no pressure on Newcastle and he’s not English. Henderson has had a few howlers but no one cares because he’s young. Ramsbottom has made loads of mistakes.

Pickford makes a mistake and it means we lose. He plays for a side that conceded few chances unlike all those mentioned above. He doesn’t get a chance to make many saves. Everything he does is magnified.

My view is he’s slightly better than average and as he plays for a midtable side, isn’t that what we’re meant to have?

Mike Gaynes
121 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:14:28
Joe #115, top of my list would be two guys I hated, Schmeichel and Kahn, although I agree Buffon is a legend as well. Never saw Banks or Clemence, and very little of Shilton or Big Nev.

I'm always surprised how few here mention Martyn. I always thought he was outstanding, better than Seaman. And as a Yank I always have to put an oar in for Brad Friedel, who won so many games for US sides that were clearly inferior to their opponents, and did the same for Blackburn and Villa. If he'd ever played for a decent side, he'd have been recognized as one of the best in the world.

Mike Gaynes
122 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:15:51
Joe, you and I were both writing about Martyn at the same moment.
Steve Ferns
123 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:16:06
Mike the fact that few mention Martyn tells you how good southall was. If he didn’t play for us, we’d have gone down in any of five seasons in the 90s.
Dave Abrahams
124 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:18:10
Check out Lev Yashin on YouTube, Russian goalkeeper.

I never saw him live but remember him from the 1958 World Cup. He is rated by many to be the greatest goalkeeper of all time: athletic, brave and fearless. If you have to be mad to be a goalkeeper, Lev certainly proved it with his diving at oncoming forwards and winning the ball off them. He wore an all-black outfit, shirt, shorts and socks. An incredible stopper... played all his career, 20 years, with Moscow Dynamo.

Alan J Thompson
125 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:25:00
Dave(#133); and those were the days when a keeper in the air was fair game, if you knocked him into the back of the net then that was his mistake. Remember the uproar from the Italian League X1 when Joe Baker bundled their keeper over the line? (Joe Baker sounded Scottish but was actually born in Woolton)
Mike Gaynes
126 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:25:44
Dave #133, that's the universal consensus from pretty much everybody who ever played against him.
Peter Warren
127 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:31:40
I actually think Pickford is improving. However, he has in my opinion been at fault in last 3 games for at least a goal - Newcastle home (both he could have dealt with in my opinion); Watford’s second (no idea what he did) and yesterday’s was clearest example. As it happens has only cost 2 points but could have been worse.

I also disagree with notion which appears inferred by some as that he saves us loads, so making too much of odd mistake. To me he gets away with loads. Yesterday a case in point - running out spilling catches (yesterday with Zaha when he later dived under Coleman “challenge) and I recall instances against clubs I mentioned above. Saves he simply should and doesn’t make - yesterday against Van Arnholt at near post - v lucky.

He’s only young and may well rapidly improve but biggest concern is that depends on his mental state - that’s why people making opinions observations on this as it’s v v important for a keeper

Steve Ferns
128 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:39:57
The greatest of them all: Link
John McFarlane Snr
129 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:42:04
Hi Dave [133] you surprise me, I would have bet money on your attendance at the World Cup semi-final at Goodison in 1966, [West Germany vs USSR]. Lev Yashin played in that game, but my only recollection is the dismissal of Chislenko [USSR] for an innocuous-looking foul. I watched four games from the Park End and that semi from the Gwladys Street End.
Brian Wilkinson
130 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:44:59
Brian@73, I am not to sure about the posting of the hotel where Jordan and his a Partner are staying during the break.

As far as I am aware, Carlo has told the players not to book a Holiday during the break and that the players will be at Finch farm instead of having a winter warmer abroad.

I really hope this is true because over the last few years when we have excited the cup, the players were rewarded with a trip abroad during the next round.

Steve Ferns
131 Posted 10/02/2020 at 17:49:07
Brian, the players have 5 days off. Carlo confirmed that in the post match interview. The Brazilians (Richarlison at least) are already back home. Who cares where they are as long as they come back refreshed and on time and their fitness is what it’s meant to be.
Phil Smith
132 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:00:19
Ray Roche (15), you've never been to watch Stoke play then.
Danny O'Neill
133 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:02:06
Steve, I haven’t missed what he’s trying to say. Yes he’s probably more in the spotlight because he is England’s keeper that’s why I called myself out on making the point. I just personally get suspicious when players default to England. Yesterday he made a mistake (a bad one, but as a lot on here have said, it doesn’t make him a bad potentially good keeper if he learns from it). But he made a mistake as the Everton keeper, not playing for England. So if he wasn’t England keeper, that mistake wouldn’t have been highlighted? If it was Tim Howard it would and he wasn’t England’s keeper. If Pickford isn’t England keeper, that’s still a poor mistake. Fair credit for acknowledging it and hopefully learning from it but the England thing is irrelevant; to indirectly suggest if he wasn’t England’s keeper he wouldn’t have been called out on it is deflecting behaviour. But then they are all media trained these days.
Mike Gaynes
134 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:04:06
One TW member ran into Mina and Richarlison at the Manchester airport as they boarded a flight for South America. Said they couldn't have been nicer or more accommodating.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

135 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:12:10
Brian @ 139. I think you've mixed up a couple of things, Brian.

This is the PL's first half-hearted attempt at staging a winter break. Our's started almost immediately after the Palace game.

ALL players are at complete liberty to travel where they like in the time the manager allowed them.

This is different from the previous two week break we had due to being eliminated from the FA Cup. The players were not on an official winter break, but an unenforced and unwelcome one. They continued to train as normal at Finch Farm during this time.

Your confusion possibly arises from this. Carlo said at the start of that break that the squad would not be travelling to exotic surrounds for warm weather training, that Finch Farm served our needs perfectly.

Nobody's doing 'a Jo' on us.

Jerome Shields
136 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:12:49
Pickford will be staying at Everton. A lot of his previous stats are based on a woeful defense in front of him. I do think he needs to concentrate on his Everton career and not associate criticism he receives is because he plays for England.

The howler he made on Saturday he can be excused for by his explaination, but he needs to realise that howlers like that can cost games to be lost and a goalkeeper career can go down hill as a result, This is particularly the case at International level , as Gareth Southgate sitting with Brands in the Stands on Saturday knows.

Pickford needs alot of support at the moment to get him performing at his best till the end of the season. Being dropped by England is not in Evertons or Pickfords interests.

Ray Roche
137 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:13:59
Paul@141

Aye Paul, I’ve been to Stoke many times but not for several years. I am assuming that you are saying that Stoke fans give their own team stick?

So, are we comparing ourselves with Stoke now?😯

Danny O'Neill
138 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:14:50
Nigel Martyn was outstanding for us when playing behind an average team. And aged 39?

My point about keepers & maturity. They are at their best in their 30s, so whilst we can be critics of the likes of young Jordan (I have been here), let’s add perspective and context.

Dave Ganley
139 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:18:34
Great link Steve #137, we were very lucky to had had big Nev, awesome keeper.
Darren Hind
140 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:44:36
Ray Roche,

You need to get that soap box out more often.

Fantastic stuff!

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

141 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:47:49
Ohhh! That was a good meander down Memory Lane, Steve Ferns.

Classic footage of the great man, doing exactly how he subsequently described keeping goal.

Lots of evidence there of one-on-ones where the forward looks the overwhelming favourite, but Nev's early positioning and stillness - waiting for the forward to blink first and commit to the shot - won the day.

You forget how good his reflexes were, added to astonishingly quick recovery to see off 2nd shots. The surety of his handling is a joy to behold. Some absolute piledrivers in there and he just gathered them into his mitts. Totally demoralising for a forward.

He was a bit good, wasn't he?

Tony Everan
142 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:52:14
I’m backing Jordan to get better with age. Someone posted about the impetuous trait in him that he is constantly desperate to see part of the action. I think he gets bored and loses a bit of focus when in the periods when he is not directly involved. Then overexcited when he is.

His personality, I think, doesn’t lend itself to total concentration when the ball is outside his immediate zone. This is something he has to work on, calm and focused concentration at all times. I think with maturity this part of his game will improve. He will become a real world class keeper at around 30.

Bill Gall
143 Posted 10/02/2020 at 18:54:41
People talking about the save by Gordon Banks from John Hurst. penalty, I still think that the save Banks made from Pele's header in the 1970 Brazil v England World Cup was Banks best save ever.

Hi John 138. I had a book of tickets for those games, for the Paddock at the Gwladys Street end. I remember some of the houses in Gwladys Street were decorated welcoming supporters from the foreign countries.

Wasn't there controversy over the semi-final as England were supposed to play at Goodison Park, but it was changed so they could play at Wembley.

Peter Thistle
144 Posted 10/02/2020 at 19:02:11
Can't stand him, arrogant shit goalie. Would be happy if we got rid of him but that ain't gonna happen.
John McFarlane Snr
145 Posted 10/02/2020 at 19:16:42
Hi Ray once again,[146] on the subject of criticism/abuse of anyone who plays football professionally. I personally believe that whoever plays for the team at the bottom of [what I still call] the 4th Division, can play football, obviously not to the standard of the Premier League, and to hear fans calling internationals 'crap' [in more colourful language] is mind boggling.

A few years ago there was a lad who sat behind me, who over a season went from Paul Gerard in goal right through to Mark Pembridge or whoever wore the number 11 on his back, describing them as crap. I put up with it for as long as I could but in the end I turned and said to him, "You must be some player" [feel free to insert whatever expletive you like]. Rightly or wrongly, I feel that the most unlikely looking [possible athletes], are the most vociferous.

I understand that football is a way of letting off steam and escaping the everyday worries of life, in fact I'm on record as saying that on a match day my world is 100 yards long and 70 yards wide for the best part of two hours, but there are ways of letting off steam. I'm quite sure that there will be some who will regard me as being some sort of nut-case, but be that as it may.

John McFarlane Snr
146 Posted 10/02/2020 at 19:24:33
Hi Bill [152], yes the semi-finalists of England's group were initially scheduled to play at Goodison, but for some reason (probably financial), the game was switched to Wembley.
Ray Robinson
147 Posted 10/02/2020 at 19:29:04
No, John, you're the voice of reason. Must be that, like goalies, maturity is reached after a certain life apprenticeship. Talking of good goalies, I used to rate Ron Springett highly. Any wrinklies remember him?

While acknowleding that Southall is the best I've ever seen (anywhere, not just Everton), I truly believe that inter-generational comparisons are misleading. The pace of the game, the ball itself, goalkeeper coaching and the demands on the modern goalie have changed beyond recognition. Wall to wall TV coverage of matches have raised our expectation of goalies because there are actually so many good ones about. Stupendous saves of the past are almost routine now. And there were probably as many if not more bloopers - just unseen due to the lack of coverage.

Mike Price
148 Posted 10/02/2020 at 19:50:45
People don’t like him because he comes across as a bit of a dick. Clearly not the brightest, very erratic and very expensive. I doubt we could get close to our money back; he’s as bad as Howard and will always be a liability.
John Keating
149 Posted 10/02/2020 at 19:57:50
All players make mistakes, as do the rest of us. It's not making mistakes, it's doing something about it and reducing the chance of repeating them.
We just happen to be talking about Pickford but it applies to all players at all Clubs. Bale gets stick almost every week at Real and that was before the arrival of Zidane!

At least most people wait until they see players over a period of time or games before they make adverse comments or remarks. Praise when it's due and stick when it's due.

We've had posters on here slag off players – and even managers – before they've even signed on!!

Ray Roche
150 Posted 10/02/2020 at 19:58:23
Ray,

Springett was a very good keeper, athletic and agile, but he was a dwarf by today's standard measuring 1.79 m which is 5 ft 8 ins (apparently). He was in goal for Sheffield in 1966 final.

Football changed over the years but no position has evolved more than the keeper. Narrowing angles, fitness, dedicated training regimes have all made goalkeeping a more individual position than ever before. Keepers train for much of the time with their own personal trainer. Add to this the fact that keeper who is 6 ft 1 ins is now regarded as “too small” or T Rex!

It is, in my opinion, the position that has changed the most and, I firmly believe that, even with identical fitness and diet etc, is the one position that players from the past would not be as good today.

Ray Roche
151 Posted 10/02/2020 at 20:01:06
Darren @146

Thank you, Darren. Coming from a regular poster such as yourself, I regard that is a real compliment.

John Pierce
152 Posted 10/02/2020 at 20:24:40
Steve. I thought I’d seen every Southall montage known to man. I cannot resist watching him, so I hit the link.

There’s a couple of clips I’ve never seen before. Villa & United saves were par excellence. Brightened my day. Just been hit with $$$$$ Bill for the basement. Pfft America houses

How’d the birthday end up?! Bet you got a peach of a view of Richarlison’s goal?

Ray Robinson
153 Posted 10/02/2020 at 20:32:04
Ray #159, I agree with you. Hodgkinson, Hopkinson, our very own Albert Dunlop were midgets by comparison. Having been a goalkeeper myself and vicariously through my son, who was on extended trial at Everton, it's a position that I observe quite closely.

Despite the fact that some goalies seem to have forgotten the art of catching the ball (we wore no gloves at all in my day!), I think the standard of today's goalkeeping is as high as it has ever been. We don't rate certain keepers as highly today because they are poor in comparison with other contemporaries, but the odds are that they are consistently better than the goalies of yesteryear.

We are all guilty sometimes of rose-tinted spectacles when it comes to reviewing are favourites from the past. That said, I'm sure that Southall, Banks, Schmeichel, Jennings, Clemence would have been good in any era.

Colin Metcalfe
154 Posted 10/02/2020 at 20:32:40
I called Pickford out after his first season and stated that we need a top keeper before Silva's first season, it's not the odd gaff it's been going on for 3 seasons now he is statically one of the worst keepers in the Premier League.

I got a bit of stick on here by saying “I think we can all agree he wouldn't get into a top-six side” just a few weeks ago and I think Brands and Carlo know his position needs addressing and will definitely bring someone in over the summer.

I have no reason to dislike the lad and he is probably a top bloke but I honestly don't think he good enough for our club and is yet another poor signing by Steve Walsh.

Oh and before I go this augment that keepers get better as age can someone please explain Alisson aged 26, Ederson aged 27 and De Gea aged 29 (the latter being at the top of his game for some years now)?

Andy Crooks
155 Posted 10/02/2020 at 20:41:49
Ray@ 159, do you remember Les Green, I think he played for Derby. He was a decent goalie but looked about five foot six.
Ray Roche
156 Posted 10/02/2020 at 20:46:49
Ray@162

I listened to Pat Nevin talking about penalties and the number that are now saved. Apparently the average height of a keeper now is 6ft-5ins. That’s bigger than most Canadian Redwood trees! This and their added athleticism and the homework that they do on the penalty takers have levelled the playing field somewhat.

Ray Robinson
157 Posted 10/02/2020 at 20:51:41
Andy, I do remember him now you mention it. A veritable midget!

And Ray #165. It doesn't surprise me - and yet the dimensions of the goal haven't changed! I do believe, however, that there is a point at which the goalies become too leggy and struggle to cope with balls close to their body because they can't get down quickly enough. Fraser Forster and Nick Pope fall into that category in my opinion which, to me, explains why the latter uses his legs so much.

Brian Wilkinson
158 Posted 10/02/2020 at 20:55:12
Cheers Jay and apologies To the other Brian for the mix up In the times of players on Holiday.
Peter Mills
160 Posted 10/02/2020 at 21:01:27
Carlo has been in charge of teams whose goalies have included Casillas, Neuer, Buffon, Dida, Cech. He will know what he expects from a custodian of the net.

I would expect him to make a decision this season and summer about Jordan Pickford, who is a talented ‘keeper who has some fundamental flaws. The lad has some elements of Gazza about him, and I suspect he would benefit from working with a sports psychologist if he is not already doing so.

As for Pickford’s display on Saturday, the goal was clearly a blunder. But the “star save” was excellent, and in real time I also thought his challenge at the feet of Zaha was brave and very well-timed.

Lev Vellene
161 Posted 10/02/2020 at 21:26:58
I think I read early on that he, as a kid, just loved throwing himself after any ball, no matter the surface. And, as he said himself, he was considered a bit strange for that attitude... Too bad our previous Greats in goal are all straight-laced guys like Big Nev, so there is no way we'll forgive beginner's errors from Picks... :P

What we need to remember is how he got to be where he is today. Loans, and more loans! Pickford has played from the non-League and ever upwards, year by year!

His reaction saves are unbelievable at times! And any striker through on goal will always be a 50/50, so why get on his back when one gets past him? No one could ever guarantee a 100% save percentage one-on-one.

What I do question is his concentration issues. Even in games we've won, I've seen him devoting too much time to the opposition fans behind his goal. He really needs to learn to ignore them!

Jamie Crowley
162 Posted 10/02/2020 at 22:17:29
So I've had TalkSport on today at the office. And the large, large majority of the discussion has been about Pickford.

I've not read a single comment, but was so fired up about this I wanted to post, and I'll read the comments later tonight while most of you fine people are fast asleep.

The English pundits and press are certifiably vicious with the England National Team. They go on a witch hunt that would make Trump giggle. They destroy the team and eat them alive.

Jordan can be a bit nutty. But my God I'll back him for saying this. The press in your country are absolute shithouses. I use that word purposely, as by reading on these pages it seems to have great affect. They are terrible, they eat their own, they are worse than sharks to blood in a feeding frenzy. Ask a certain exiled couple in and around Vancouver, British Columbia presently who just said, "Fuck it, we're out."

I'm thrilled Jordan basically stuck up for himself. The kid's not perfect, but I'd hope to God Evertonians rally around him and these comments.

I'd also trepidatiously say this: Fleet Street, full of Southerners in your country, are attacking one of our own from everything I've heard on the radio today. My experience, and my opinion as an outsider, is Scousers don't take very kindly to Southerners telling them what to do. I'm hoping I will read later tonight, and see in the near future, a Scouse "circle the wagons, leave our fucking guy alone you posh, prick Southerners" type of response.

Danny Baily
163 Posted 10/02/2020 at 22:23:40
There just isn't a good keeper in there. I don't know why those in charge keep the faith.
Derek Knox
164 Posted 10/02/2020 at 22:43:07
While I agree that we should, in the main, get behind our players, but it does rankle somewhat, when Pickford has that supercilious grin, after a howler, schoolboy error, or near miss.

He is very highly paid and should take his job more seriously, while I don't expect him to save every shot, some are just bordering on ridiculous, and his percentages should increase, if he cuts out the idiocy.

Dave Abrahams
165 Posted 10/02/2020 at 00:24:49
John Mac (133), nice to hear from you John. I've never been an England fan, not even in 1966, I did go to one of the World Cup matches on the 12th. of July, Brazil v Bulgaria ? 2-0 to Brazil, I think Brazil scored from two free kicks.

This thread has turned into a very good one with all the old goalkeepers named. I think I saw most of them, and one post mentioned three ‘keepers who I rated, all of a small size: Hodgkinson, Sheffield Utd, Hopkinson, Bolton and our own Albert Dunlop.

Albert, I think, made his debut in the 5-2 win at Old Trafford against Man Utd and played very well. Later in that season, he played even better at the same venue in the FA Cup but we lost 1-0 to a Duncan Edwards goal. Bert Williams was another small-sized goalie of Wolves and England fame.

One of the very few I saw, but seen him a young boys eyes, was the Frank Swift of Man City. in another FA Cup game at Goodison, we won 1-0 with a goal from Billy Higgins, who was kidnapped before the game by Liverpool students and was held to ransom before he was let go. Frank Swift was a larger-than-life character, tragically killed at Munich with the Man Utd players and a few more reporters like himself.

Sorry to go on, that's my six pints worth, finished for the night.

Derek Thomas
166 Posted 11/02/2020 at 01:21:41
Bill @ 152; there certainly was. Tickets were sold 6 months prior with the printed fixtures - 'gist'...winner quarter final 'A' will play winner quarter final 'C' at location 'X'...with the other location 'Y' being Wembley.
Mike Gaynes
167 Posted 11/02/2020 at 02:35:46
Ray #162, great perspective from an expert.

Pete #169, best post of the thread.

Alan J Thompson
168 Posted 11/02/2020 at 03:28:56
Pickford did make a mistake and should have stopped Palace's goal but I can't find anyone mentioning Digne's positioning and why he didn't stop Benteke's shot or letting him make it after being at first caught by his poor positioning in picking up Benteke.
Steven Astley
169 Posted 11/02/2020 at 07:38:40
Just scanning through these comments... makes it apparent why the club has always failed to reach higher than it has. Acceptance from the fans that we have a decent goalkeeper... failure to see that Pickford isn't the answer and calls to stand by him are embarrassing.

The lad hasn't got it, I knew this before we signed him. He's had a lucky ride with England.

Oh and calls for Big Nev to be brought in to have a word with him... what is it that they say, "You should never meet your heroes?" And for anyone who hasn't ever met him, ask yourself this, why is he rarely invited back to the club?

Tony Hill
170 Posted 11/02/2020 at 07:39:07
He's clearly working at his game because he's coming out for more crosses and doing so successfully.

We should get behind him now. He's a worry sometimes but he has a strong core and he will get better.

Tony Heron
171 Posted 11/02/2020 at 07:57:37
Only just picked up this thread. So much to comment on!

I went to all the games at Goodison Park for the '66 World Cup. The first game was Brazil v Bulgaria, 3-0 to the Brazilliants. I remember the colour, the noise, the skill. Pele, Garrincha. The Brazil goalie was Gilmar, I think. In the Russian team, there was of course the famous Lev Yashin between the sticks. As a schoolboy, and later amateur, keeper, I was thrilled to see one of the greats close up.

At that time, the English league seemed to be full of good solid keepers. Banks, of course, Springett, Hodgkinson, Hopkinson and later our own Westie. Can I give a shout out for Andy Rankin, who at one time displaced West in goal? He was a spectacular keeper rather than what I would call solid.

I remember in a cup game, I think against Hull, he was injured and had to be replaced. No subs then, so an outfield player went in goal and Andy played out the game on the left wing!

For me, our best ever keeper was, of course, the imperious Big Nev. I enjoyed the link provided by Steve Ferns. I think Nev would agree though, that some saves are because the ball comes at the height and position you would want as a keeper.

Now I'm no lover of Pickford, I dont like his attitude, he parries too much and, if I were a defender in front of him, I wouldn't be confident because he doesn't "boss" the box. However, I have some sympathy with him over the goal he conceded against Crystal Palace.

The worst place for a keeper to save a shot IMHO is on the floor and close to you, just where he was caught out on Sunday. As to whether he should be replaced, well, as I said earlier, West was once replaced by Andy Rankin because of poor form. Who have we got now to step in?

Tony Abrahams
172 Posted 11/02/2020 at 08:11:30
Ray@165, the only thing that will ever level the playing field on penalties, is when the man who is taking the pen becomes nervous, imo mate.

Brian Williams
173 Posted 11/02/2020 at 08:43:04
So we haven't won any trophies because some accept we have a decent keeper?

Utter bolleaux! 😴

Tony Everan
174 Posted 11/02/2020 at 08:57:24
Utter Bolleaux ?

Is he up an coming French keeper we are scouting?

Ray Roche
175 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:07:10
Tony,

The taker is on a hiding to nothing. He is EXPECTED to score which certainly racks up the pressure. I played CF and hated taking penalties so I left it to others who were more comfortable taking them. I saw Gerrard (spit) saying that when he was taking a penalty at Old Trafford the keeper
Was making himself look “bigger “ by spreading his arms etc. and the goal appeared to shrink. Even he was nervous. The kind of penalty I dislike is when the taker is too busy posing with a pathetic, stuttered run before a soft side foot shot.See Pogba for instance.
Put your boot through it for heavens sakes.
I won’t if there are stats comparing the success rates for putting your foot through the laces and “placing” the ball.
Where’s Steve Ferns when you need him?

Steven Astley
176 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:07:51
Brian, don't think I mentioned anything about winning trophies.
Ray Roche
177 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:08:14
“I wonder if there are stats”
Bloody predictive text.
Alan McGuffog
178 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:13:04
The late, great Ron Springett was barely 5' 10''. Harry Thompson, cousin of Alex Young, shorter than that.
Talking of great keepers of that era, Tony Waiters of Blackpool! And I remember on a couple of occasions playing Stoke up here and Banks being injured. Rubbing our hands expecting a cricket score, they had a replacement called John Farmer, I think. What a keeper. And imagine being an understudy to Banks. Poor sod.
Alan J Thompson
179 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:30:01
Alan(#187); Ted Farmer?
Dean Johnson
180 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:30:14
If Chelsea can admit their 75mill mistake why can't we?

The guy just keeps cocking up and how long is it before people remove the 'potential' and 'our keeper' blinkers and realise that he is rubbish?

It's like people don't want to admit that they've seen what they've seen for fear of being proven wrong.

We are often branded by our own ToffeeWebbers as negative but I would say we are realists.

People would still be saying that he's young and he had good potential after he's dropped his 12th bollocks in half a season.

I won't judge people for giving their honest opinion, but supporting players who are clearly not up to the job is worse because you prolong the agony for the rest of us.

Be careful what you wish for eh? So stick with Silva then? Or replace him with someone with Actual ability rather than potential

Sam Hoare
181 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:43:19
Dean @189 a good point. Kepa is the only regular keeper in the league this year with a lower save % than Pickford. We're not talking about one or two howlers here but the fundamentals of goalkeeping ie how many shots do they keep out.

Chelsea are supposedly replacing Kepa because they realise that a goalkeeper who is not saving enough shots is going to have a seriously detrimental affect on the team. And yet many on here want to keep Pickford?

Loyalty can be a good thing but but it can also be a big hindrance. Look at the way Man City treated Joe Hart when he was still England no 1. They realised he was something of a liability and moved quickly to upgrade. If we want to reach the upper echelons then we may need to dispense with this Evertonian sentimentality, this 'lets back the players'. I get it with the youngsters who are especially fragile and early in their development but Pickford is playing his fourth full season in the PL with around 100 first team games in the football league too. He's no kid. We need better if we have genuine top 4 aspirations over the next 5 years.

Ray Robinson
182 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:46:58
Nobody on this thread is saying that Pickford is the best goalkeeper around today but all those who advocate replacing him have failed to convince me that there is anyone out there who is
a) consistently better and does not trade one set of weaknesses for another
b) proven over several seasons
c) affordable and
d) where the owning club would be prepared to sell.

Long gone are the days when we could shell out a then record fee for a goalie like Gordon West to replace Albert Dunlop. We weren't known as the millionaire's club for nothing. It seems under Moshiri we do have money to spend but, Financial Fair Play notwithstanding, there must be other areas of the field that need strengthening first?

Sam Hoare
183 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:53:44
Ray@191, have a look at some of my options at 28. Of course any transfer is a gamble but all of those option have performed consistently better than Pickford this year. That's not to say they don't make any errors (everyone does of course) but they make more saves and claim more crosses.

There may be other areas that need strengthening but unless Pickford improves then I genuinely think it becomes a priority. Don't think many of our other players rank 2nd worse in the league in their field.

Ray Smith
184 Posted 11/02/2020 at 09:58:49
Ray 191

Well said Ray.

Pickford is his own worst enemy at times when he either clowns around or makes certain comments, engaging his mouth before his brain, but he will learn.

Look what has happened to Paul Robinson and Joe Hart! both at the top of the tree in their time, and after that there’s only one way, and that’s down.

Jordan hasn’t reached the top of the tree yet! It remains to be seen how far he can progress.

Ask yourself who out there is better and available.

Carlo will decide Jordan’s future and that’s good enough for me 😎

Phil Bellis
185 Posted 11/02/2020 at 10:32:00
I remember the fuss over the semi-final venue fix and the banners at Goodison "Down With FIFA" "England Fix Insults Liverpool" etc
I had the pleasure to chat with Gordon Banks a few years ago; he knew I was Blue and told me he was asked to coach (on the quiet) an Everton goalie with great potential but a bit of a maverick, as he put it
He took on the challenge
I asked him about Lev Yashin, as I saw him in that semi, and he said superb goalie but Nev was the best he'd ever seen
Ray Robinson
186 Posted 11/02/2020 at 10:39:04
Sam #192. I have re-looked at your suggestions and honestly can't comment on the foreign goalies as I do not regularly watch football in other countries. Of the English-based keepers, Henderson looks a good one (would Man Utd sell - he's their keeper after all?). Not sure he's better than Pickford. Ramsdale again looks good but totally unproven over any lengthy period (arguably at fault with one of Sheffield Utd's goals due to lack of dominance in the air when making a punch), Ryan again is good (on small side but athletic)). Dubravka was a real steal by Newcastle but didn't totally convince me at Goodison recently. In summary, all good keepers but how much of an upgrade (if any) on Pickford? All open to debate but for me, marginal gains - if any at all.
Brian Williams
187 Posted 11/02/2020 at 10:49:24
Steven#185.
Steven, you're right and I apologize for the mistake.

We have always failed to "reach higher levels" because we accept that Pickford is a decent keeper.

Have I got it right now mate?

Steven Astley
188 Posted 11/02/2020 at 10:49:39
Ray Robinson #191... Joel Robles was better than what we have now.
Laurie Hartley
189 Posted 11/02/2020 at 10:56:25
Tony # 180 - Andy Rankin is a favourite of mine - probably because of this save I saw with my own eyes.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-andy-rankin-the-everton-goalkeeper-saves-from-hunt-liverpool-v-everton-84717247.html

Hunt’s shot was travelling like an Exocet missile from the edge of the box. Talk about reaction saves. This is the best save I have ever seen barring none.

I alway love an opportunity to repost it.

Steven Astley
190 Posted 11/02/2020 at 10:58:43
Ray, everything about Pickford is wrong in order to be a top drawer goalkeeper... height, reach, mentality, attitude.
He doesnt instil confidence in the back line and doesn't command the area.
He should have been prime candidate to have worn the armband when Coleman or Sigurdsson have been missing, but yet it goes to Digne or Davies.
He's not even as good as Joe Hart was and look at him now.
Whilst I think it'd still be possible to double our money if we sold in the summer, I think it's a no brainer to part ways.
Ray Robinson
191 Posted 11/02/2020 at 11:08:26
Steve #197. I accept Robles was a better keeper than many gave him credit for but successive managers obviously didn't rate him that highly. As for #199, if "everything about Pickford is wrong in order to be a top drawer goalkeeper", how on earth do you think "It'd still be possible to double our money if we sold in the summer"? Are all other clubs managers / owners totally stupid?
Steven Astley
192 Posted 11/02/2020 at 11:32:44
Ray, because since we have signed him, he has had a fortunate run in the last World Cup and now seen as England No. 1 (for now) as well as the fact transfer fees (and loan fees) have increased dramatically.
Goalkeeper is the easiest position to fill. There are plenty of other options around and can be found at bargain prices. You just need to be clever in the market. Adrián at the Shite for example.
Sam Hoare
193 Posted 11/02/2020 at 11:44:43
Ray@195, its all debateable stuff of course. I think Henderson, this season at least has been significantly better. They all make mistakes of course but his save percentage (and for me that's an hugely important indicator) is almost 15% better.

Making those marginal gains in the right places may be how we get from 8th-ish to 5th and hopefully even 4th or above.

I hope he improves but currently, statistically and to my eye, Pickford is one of the worst performing keepers in the league. The problem will be finding a buyer and for that reason I expect him to stay.

Carl Manning
194 Posted 11/02/2020 at 11:53:18
If we were to look at Pickford going, the one keeper nobody has mentioned, yet always seem to perform well when picked is romero at United. He’s a big unit too! I know it another united reject, but he always seems in control and calm. There was a big cry for him to keep his place when he had a good run when de gea was Injured.
Tony Heron
195 Posted 11/02/2020 at 12:01:53
Laurie@198 Thanks for the link. It looks fantastic, although as it's a still it's hard to judge the difficulty. Andy was a favourite of mine too precisely because of this type of save. I had followed him from his time in the reserves and was made up when he got a chance in first team even so I thought Westie was the better keeper. If memory serves I think at one time Andy was a trainee police Bobby. He eventually left Everton and I think he went to Watford.
Tony Heron
196 Posted 11/02/2020 at 12:26:02
Laurie@198 Thanks for the link. It looks fantastic, although as it's a still it's hard to judge the difficulty. Andy was a favourite of mine too precisely because of this type of save. I had followed him from his time in the reserves and was made up when he got a chance in first team even so I thought Westie was the better keeper. If memory serves I think at one time Andy was a trainee police Bobby. He eventually left Everton and I think he went to Watford.
Bill Gienapp
197 Posted 11/02/2020 at 12:26:43
If you don't rate Pickford, that's fine. But let's not reduce ourselves to romanticizing Robles.
John Keating
198 Posted 11/02/2020 at 12:27:48
Whether we replace Pickford or any other player should and always be the managers decision.

My argument on this thread is those that advocate that we, as supporters, should have no right to criticize a player when they make a mistake.
A one off mistake is, in my opinion, just one of those things that we have to accept and move on from. However, when a player continues to make mistakes then we have every right to make comment.

This back and support them regardless, just because they play for Everton, is nonsense.

Many of us have continued to support DCL, Holgate, JJK, Davies since they came into the team, a team that had lost all identity, knowing they were starting from a shit position. Now with the right support and tactics they are starting to show their potential.
Hopefully JJK will be back next season giving Coleman a run for his money at right back

Unfortunately some players will never learn.

John McFarlane Snr
199 Posted 11/02/2020 at 12:35:04
Hi all, in the discussion relating to goalkeepers I'm surprised that Bert Trautmann has been overlooked, I find it impossible to pick an out and out 'Best' they all had specialist skills. Talking of goalies I was demobbed in July 1959, and it was reported in the Liverpool Echo that Gary Sobers the West Indies cricketer, was having goalkeeping trials with Everton. I'v never been able to confirm this and it's caused me terrific headaches over the years. Best wishes John.

Hi Dave [174] Do you not regret the missed opportunity of seeing the likes of Eusebio, Beckenbauer, etc. and that memorable encounter between Portugal and North Korea? Best wishes Johhn.

Hi Tony, [180] as you will have read the score in the Brazil vs Bulgaria game was 2-0 and as Dave says both goals were from free-kicks, [Pele and Garrincha] Tony you have made an old man happy,I have asked thousands of fans if they could recall Andy Rankin being forced to play outside left because of injury, if my memory hasn't failed me completely, it was Brian Harris who replaced him in Goal. I also remember Gordon West being forced to occupy the same position, I'm not 100% certain but I think Sandy Brown would have replaced him 'between the sticks,' I'm not sure of the opposition.

For younger 'Webbers' it was in pre-substitute days'. Best wishes John.

Tony Heron
200 Posted 11/02/2020 at 13:10:15
Hi John (208). So pleased I've made you happy! The game as I recall was a cup replay at Goodison and the pitch was very heavy and a quagmire in places. I think this was due to some problems at the time with the underground heating. I don't recall who replaced Andy Rankin in goal but Brain Harris, a much under appreciated player, sounds about right. Your right about Sandy Brown becoming the stand in in later years. It's funny to think now of the unusual choices to replace an injured keeper in those pre sub days. I recall Bobby Moore taking the Jersey for West Ham against Stoke, and I think he saved a penalty! I'm sure I also read that the great Pele was also no slouch between the sticks.
I thought Brazil v Bulgaria was 3 nil, but I bow to your superior knowledge. I do remember Garrincha's
free kicks though. I was in Gladwys St. and I remember the whole crowd swaying one way then the other to follow the flight of the ball, not sure if that was the one he scored from?
Dave Abrahams
201 Posted 11/02/2020 at 13:18:20
John (208), Yes John, incredible that no poster, including myself, never mentioned the brilliance of Bert Trautman, what a goalkeeping performance he gave against Everton in the fifties, at Maine Road, in an FA cup game. Bert had been in bed with the flu for most of the week, he should have stayed there, but was announced as fit to play on the day. Everton were absolutely brilliant in a tremendous first half performance, and led with a Jimmy Harris goal, I think, it was only Trautmann’s outstanding saves throughout that first forty five minutes that kept City in the game, Everton were really tip top and deserved a bigger lead, only Trautmann’s heroics stopped them, a truly great goalkeeper.

Yes John, Eusébio and Beckenbauer were well worth watching, along with two or three Hungarians in the Brazil game, saw that on TV.

As for Gary Sobers, yes I remember it being suggested him being toted for trials with Everton but I put it down to the same way as Joe Louis, when heavyweight champion of the world, signing for Liverpool, just publicity.

Go along with your suggestion that Sandy Brown would have replaced Gordon West between the sticks.

Tom Bowers
202 Posted 11/02/2020 at 14:01:11
Football has moved on since the fifties and sixties but arguably not in the right directions in some areas.
I have never believed that the game should be played without being 11 players on each team and have always disagreed with a team playing with ten men when a player is sent off.

Yes, I welcomed it when they introduced substitutes but disagree with all the time wasting etc. with what's going on today with multiple substitutions.

Referees are to blame in some cases were red cards are concerned because some issue the yellow card willy nilly far too early and can result in the dismissal later that affects the result of the game.

The antics of some players and coaches these days is, frankly an embarrassment to the sport and a bad example to many young players learning the game who think these antics are the normal thing to do especially now in the glare of social media.

This latest Delle Alli incident is an example of the stupidity going on today.

Phil Smith
203 Posted 11/02/2020 at 17:48:39
Chris Sutton weighing in on the BBC (god, I hate that twat!). I think we need to bring in a decent cover to push him. I thought Lössl was a sensible signing for competition with Pickford but obviously he's shite. Need to get rid and get someone better in to keep him on his toes.
Chris Williams
204 Posted 11/02/2020 at 17:51:08
All this media focus on Pickford too. You'd think there was fuck all else to talk about!
Brian Williams
205 Posted 11/02/2020 at 17:55:36
Chris #213.

That's the only reason this is so-called "news". Only two games at the weekend and the media needed something to fill space. Ridiculous!

Chris Williams
206 Posted 11/02/2020 at 18:15:57
Yes, Brian, and all he had to do was to shut up. Still, it's all part of growing up.
John McFarlane Snr
207 Posted 11/02/2020 at 18:39:46
Hi John [207] I must confess that I can find no evidence of fans advocating that players should be immune from criticism, as far as I'm concerned they are fair game, what I object to is the manner in which some posters word their criticism, there is absolutely no need for some of the foul language that is quite often used.

I disagree with your comment of, "This back and support them regardless, just because they play for Everton, is nonsense." Because they play for Everton is the very reason I do support them, I may be critical of them during a match, but because it's a team game, I don't single a player out to vent my spleen.

I have only been posting on this site for a couple of years but I have never abused either an Everton player, or fellow ToffeeWebber. I'm a ''Do As You Would Be Done By'' sort of chap.

John Pierce
208 Posted 11/02/2020 at 19:02:33
I think, if people think back across this season, it's fair to say Pickford has been questioned on a fairly regular basis.

He did start well but has provoked more questions than answers to his overall form, technique and in particular what is perceived to be a suspect temperament.

Had he conceded the Benteke header and saved the shot, I'm fairly sure no conversation would be had. Making a save from a high percentage shot is rare yet spectacular but should be valued far less than saving a grass cutter hit like a 10-year-old. That's his bread and butter and it happens multiple times in a game.

The concerns have been there for 18months, yet his first season seems to given him more credit in the bank than perhaps was due?

I'll repeat very few top goalkeepers have the outward temperament he appears to have. The very best are outwardly calm, organised and unflappable.

The errors in his game are consistently there, his kicking (feted as a strength) is less effective and he often chooses the wrong time to chip a ball to a full back. The free kicks he's conceded are becoming a trope in his game, he cheats almost every time to the ‘wall side' and is beaten on ‘his side'. I'd never blame a keeper if someone sticks it over the wall, but too many have been his side, Brighton and Man City immediately spring to mind.

Most importantly for me, his ability to dominate the box has a very profound effect on his defenders. The Newcastle equaliser was there to be claimed at the edge of his six, he started and stopped, caused confusion and was too far across his goal, his position was compromised and well carnage.

So do I want him removed? Perhaps. In the medium term, we will find better; however, to replace him with an equal or a better is too costly. Can a better coach be employed to improve him, his game has completely stagnated? Or are we brave enough to find a less experienced keeper with strong decision-making skills and challenge Pickford for his place? A lot will depend on our finish: if we make the Europa League, a challenger needs to be bought.

A lot to ponder, but in the short term the lad needs to be anonymous in games, maybe he should speak to Gylfi?

Martin Mason
209 Posted 11/02/2020 at 19:41:48
I've watched the 90 minutes twice and just watched the highlights and have to say that the vast majority of the criticism aimed at Jordan is fact-free. On Saturday his distribution was good and he controlled the area well positionally.

He made a mistake in not saving the Benteke shot but made two good saves, one that defied belief really. He didn't give the Benteke goal away as the striker should have scored 9 times out of 10, whatever the goalie did.

Jordan is a superb keeper, as the management of Everton and England know well. He is part of the great future that is developing for the club. Shame on some for what I see as totally irrational criticism of a great young player. That we have him is a massive positive for the club.

Steven Astley
210 Posted 11/02/2020 at 19:46:40
Lots of waffle going on here. In a nutshell, get rid and at the same time get rid of Lössl.

Then bring in Thomas Strakosha of Lazio and Jack Butland on the cheap as backup, whilst retaining Stekelenburg.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

211 Posted 11/02/2020 at 20:08:14
'Lots of waffle going on here' says poster @ 219.

Indeed there is.

Posts 178, 197, 199, 201 and now 219 itself being fine examples of said waffle.

Steven Astley
212 Posted 11/02/2020 at 20:09:12
Jay #220 - is it that time of the month pal?
Phil Smith
213 Posted 11/02/2020 at 20:09:32
Jack Butland, who I rated a few years ago, is not having the best season with Stoke. Been better since O'Neil took over though.
John Pierce
214 Posted 11/02/2020 at 20:10:53
Martin, what you say is fair; however, the clear error he made Saturday is part of a consistent run of indifferent form, both from game to game, throughout a game, and mostly over this campaign.

This thread and others aren't specifically basing an opinion on one game. The issues are there, they're being made repeatedly, and he's not improving.

Others who have come in for (rightly too) criticism in the same 18 months, have improved. Holgate and Calvert-Lewin are two good examples. Can you point to where Pickford has improved in the the last 18 months? His save percentage over this time has gotten worse, it doesn't tell the whole story but it's a strong indication of underlying problems which haven't been arrested.

I think it's very hard to say he's more than an average goalkeeper.


Steven Astley
215 Posted 11/02/2020 at 20:14:19
Phil #222 – Butland is still an improvement on Lössl though...
Andy Crooks
216 Posted 11/02/2020 at 20:21:08
Steven @221, I don't rate Pickford and said so on another thread in terms that, on reflection, I withdrew. I think your post @221 is as unfortunate as mine was.
Peter Thistle
217 Posted 11/02/2020 at 20:26:57
I knew he'd cost us goals when we signed him. I'm not sure exactly how many he's "let in" since signing but I was proved right: he's fuckin' rubbish.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

218 Posted 11/02/2020 at 21:14:33
The post @ 221? Personally happy to leave it up there, Andy @ 225.

It says a great deal more about the author than the intended target.

Steven Astley
220 Posted 11/02/2020 at 21:32:05
Just as I thought, JW!
Steve Guy
221 Posted 11/02/2020 at 21:33:29
If the weekend had had a full set of fixtures, this whole saga wouldn't have even got on the radar. Jordan Pickford should have kept his views to himself and with nothing else to chew on, the media have gone into overdrive; when Chris Sutton has started pontificating, you know it's gone too far.

Fact is, he has made some high-profile errors but is still a young goalkeeper who will hopefully iron these lapses out of his game. One thing's for certain, Carlo won't put up with it if he doesn't.

Andrew Keatley
222 Posted 11/02/2020 at 21:43:09
Carl (203) - Romero is a very good shout.
Dennis Stevens
223 Posted 11/02/2020 at 22:10:30
Aye, Steve #230 - Pickford has effectively painted a nice big target on his back for the media to aim at.
Vijay Nair
224 Posted 11/02/2020 at 22:11:37
Carl (203), if it's a "United reject" we are going after, I would rather it be Dean Henderson. The lad has been top class consistently for Sheffield Utd, and won't get a look in when he returns to Man Utd with De Gea and Romero there. It's no wonder he's been pitched for England Number 1 ahead of Pickford.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

225 Posted 11/02/2020 at 22:15:59
@ 229.

'Just as I thought...'

You claim the capacity to 'think'?

Now there's a surprise.

Brent Stephens
226 Posted 11/02/2020 at 22:55:09
Steven #199: "Whilst I think it'd still be possible to double our money if we sold in the summer, I think it's a no-brainer to part ways".

And #201 "Goalkeeper is the easiest position to fill. There are plenty of other options around and can be found at bargain prices. You just need to be clever in the market".

So another club would pay silly money for Pickford when, in your own words, "there are plenty of other options around and can be found at bargain prices".

"You just need to be clever in the market"!

Derek Thomas
227 Posted 12/02/2020 at 00:39:13
I doubt any of the top keepers are open for a move so, unless Brands spots Southall Mk II somewhere, Pickford is going nowhere... It may be up to the goalkeeping coach to really earn his money.
Sam Hoare
228 Posted 12/02/2020 at 09:26:37
Martin @218, you say that the arguments against Pickford are fact-free even though I (and some others) have put up the statistics that clearly show him to be a mediocre (at best) keeper currently by Premier League standards.

You then state that he is a 'superb keeper' with, guess what, no facts to back it up!!

Most of the criticism on here is not based solely on his error last weekend but on a very underwhelming last 18 months in goal. The facts, if you look at them, back this up pretty strongly.

Also, I think his save from Benteke has been over-egged rather. He moved across the goal well (he is certainly agile) but Benteke planted his header right at his chest; good positioning but a very poor miss, it was no Gordon Banks, as some are making out.

Martin Mason
229 Posted 12/02/2020 at 09:42:00
Sam, if you don't want to see positive points or make positive points, like his save from Benteke, into negatives, then negatives are all that you will ever see. No disrespect but it's called confirmation bias. I had it against Morgan Schneiderlin and yet, watching him Saturday, he actually played very well.

I state that he's a superb keeper, it's an opinion that needs no back-up; he's first choice keeper for his club and country and he has a lot of competition for the position. The alternative is that the criticism is often overstated which is my belief.

Sam Hoare
230 Posted 12/02/2020 at 10:04:35
Martin, that's not entirely fair, I certainly didn't turn it into a negative, I said that his Benteke save was good but not great.

I'm well aware of confirmation bias, having a degree in psychology, which is why I try to look at the underlying statistics which, though often used too selectively, can also provide a more objective picture when used correctly.

I like Pickford; he clearly cares a great deal and has great potential... but the stats clearly suggest to me that he is not improving and is not excelling in comparison to his peers. I would say the same thing even if he had not made an error last weekend.

Most of the stuff on here is opinion, I just found it strange that you should call out his critics for not using any facts and then fail to provide any yourself.

Mal van Schaick
231 Posted 12/02/2020 at 11:03:57
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It will always be a fact that there are rollercoaster reviews of performances of goalkeepers. He's young enough to learn from his mistakes and keepers mature with age. He'll do for me. Could be worse... Sprake or the Flying Pig!
Martin Mason
232 Posted 12/02/2020 at 11:50:36
Sam, there are no facts other than the ones I stated, he is Everton's and England's number one keeper when there is competition for both slots.
How about this for an alternative? Pickford flatters our poor defence, they do such unpredictable things in front of him that he has to play over and above the normal standard required of a goalie. See Saturdays game, Richarlison and Digne at the near post got him into dire trouble and made him look bad in some eyes. Mina's terrible overhead kick put Pickford in trouble too, this isn't infrequent and it is factual. Remember also that statistics aren't fact.

Anyway, all it comes down to is that while I accept that he makes mistakes (and which keeper doesn't) that overall he is an exceptional world level keeper and the only way we'd go from him is down. He is still young for a keeper so surely we shouldn't be giving him such a hard time (as Evertonians seem to specialise in). It would be easier and far more positive to be positive about him and cut him some slack. What we should do is watch what he does not what we feel he does, try to eliminate confirmation bias difficult though it can be. Will Carlo drop him? Will England drop him? That would certainly influence my thinking. Enough said anyway from me, I just hope that we can be fair to him.

Michael Kenrick
233 Posted 12/02/2020 at 11:57:57
Some decidedly odd ones on here today... just two for the time-being:

Tom Bowers @211: "I have never believed that the game should be played without there being 11 players on each team and have always disagreed with a team playing with 10 men when a player is sent off."

I've had to read that a few times to see if it's me, and I'm convinced otherwise. Is it the sending-off you don't like? Are you saying no player should ever be sent off? Or is it the playing on with 10 men? Are you saying they should stop and walk off? I think the repercussions would be immense if they did...

There is provision in the law for the game to be stopped if more than 4 players from a side are dismissed, as I recall.

Steve Astley @201: "Goalkeeper is the easiest position to fill."

How do reckon that then? What makes it easier than all the others? If it's so easy, why would any team anywhere have any goalkeeper issues?

So many puzzling conclusions to be drawn from such a sweeping 'fact-free' statement. (I think Mason has started something there...)

Steven Astley
234 Posted 12/02/2020 at 12:10:50
Martin #241 - Pickford flatters our poor defence?
Is that our poor defence that contains 2 centre-halfs being touted as our players of the season so far?!

Brent #235 - Yes, exactly that, we have a goalkeeper, that, even with his shit form for the last few years, has managed to work himself into a position of England No 1.

Can you disagree that if he was transfer listed, he wouldn't attract bids of £60m upwards and fast?

We see him every week and most are fed up with his erratic performances. Whereas, we can take advantage of his, still relatively good reputation off the back of his England form, that would make him an easily saleable player to other clubs.

A lot of our fans continue to buy into the, "He earns us 10-15pts a season" - No chance. In my opinion I think it's quite the opposite.

Not Pickford's fault, but we also don't benefit from a good deputy to challenge him.

Bring in Thomas Strakosha from Lazio and another as a good backup and we WILL reach further up the league.

Brent Stephens
235 Posted 12/02/2020 at 12:18:41
Steven #243,

If Pickford is as bad as you say, why do you think he would attract bids of £60M upwards?

Steven Astley
236 Posted 12/02/2020 at 12:26:49
Brent #244 - re-read my comment. Because of his previous England form and general reputation in the media. It wasn't that long ago that Man Utd were sniffing around him.

Regardless, it wouldn't take long to move him on should the club decide to.

Brent Stephens
237 Posted 12/02/2020 at 12:46:10
So United are going to spend "upwards of £60m" on a crap keeper?! United are sometimes a soft touch but not as soft as some!
Steven Astley
238 Posted 12/02/2020 at 12:52:07
Brent, so how much do you value Pickford at?

I don't really care how much we would get for him, as long as we can bring in the replacement I mentioned for less.

Brent Stephens
239 Posted 12/02/2020 at 13:01:23
Steven, my point isn't your £ valuation of Pickford. It's the apparent inconsistency in your argument.

On the one hand, you think he's crap. On the other hand, you say "Goalkeeper is the easiest position to fill. There are plenty of other options around and can be found at bargain prices" – your words, not mine – so why would another club pay more than a bargain price for him. I assume you don't think you're "£60m upwards" valuation is a bargain?

Steven Astley
242 Posted 12/02/2020 at 13:24:54
Brent - His performances for us have been really poor in the last 2 or 3 years. Yet, he is still highly regarded because of his England form - which I think you'll agree, is of no benefit to us.

Therefore it's a unique situation. He hasn't been performing well for us OR showed signs of improving, there's question marks about his concentration and his reach yet he would still be easily saleable, for a decent fee, to other teams here and abroad who havent necessarily had his domestic performances under a microscope and because of his reputation from the World Cup and subsequent Internationals.

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain what I mean?

Brent Stephens
243 Posted 12/02/2020 at 13:36:20
Steven #251 "He hasn't been performing well for us OR showed signs of improving, there's question marks about his concentration and his reach yet he would still be easily saleable, for a decent fee, to other teams here and abroad who havent necessarily had his domestic performances under a microscope and because of his reputation from the World Cup and subsequent Internationals".

"other teams here and abroad who havent necessarily had his domestic performances under a microscope" Really?! They're going to spend "£60m and upwards" without having looked closely at him? So we can see he's crap but other clubs can't?!

You also say get rid "whilst retaining Stekelenburg". But also say "we also don't benefit from a good deputy to challenge him". The arguments are all over the place.

And "transfer fees (and loan fees) have increased dramatically. Goalkeeper is the easiest position to fill. There are plenty of other options around and can be found at bargain prices". Can you not see the contradiction even within those sentences within the same post?!

Steven Astley
244 Posted 12/02/2020 at 13:43:19
Brent - Not with most of it, no. Particularly as you have missed parts of what I've said out of your quotes.

Let's just put our arm round Pickford and see what happens for the rest of the season. I think we will be disappointed.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

245 Posted 12/02/2020 at 13:51:19
Mindboggling.

If there was a National Waffling Team, I know who would be first pick.

Sam Hoare
246 Posted 12/02/2020 at 13:52:05
Martin @241: "Sam, there are no facts other than the ones I stated, he is Everton's and England's number one keeper when there is competition for both slots."

What a strange thing to say. There are definitely other facts!

And how curious to say that statistics are not facts. What do you think they are then if not the collection and interpretation of factual data? I can admit that some stats are more telling and useful than others but to dismiss them entirely as non-factual seem bizarre especially when talking about confirmation bias! Could it be that if you are refusing to consider the statistics/facts against Pickford that it is you who might be guilty of that bias?

It is surely a fact that Pickford has started 26 games in the league for us this season and conceeded 38 goals. It is also a fact that using an equal system of shot and save quantifying that Pickford has saved a significantly smaller percentage of shots than his peers.

People like to stick with a goalkeeper choice and, for that reason, I suspect he may just hang onto the England gloves for a little while longer but, if he keeps performing at an inferior level to the likes of Henderson, then it will only be a matter of time till he is dropped. I hope I am fair to all of our players and am not the booing sort but it helps no-one to close our eyes to clear issues and underperformance.

Steven Astley
247 Posted 12/02/2020 at 13:56:10
Jay - if I knew the word "Waffle" was going to wind you up so much then I would have avoided using it.

Have a nice day!

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

248 Posted 12/02/2020 at 13:59:38
Hmmm. I don't think it's me getting wound up, or continuing to dig when already in a hole.

I always have a nice day. Annoying, isn't it?

Steven Astley
249 Posted 12/02/2020 at 14:04:11
Nope!
Brian Williams
250 Posted 12/02/2020 at 14:15:04
I think we could sell Pickford for double the fee we paid for him because, as Steve Astley points out, he's been doing well for England.

And luckily for us, any club that's willing to pay anywhere near double what Everton paid is going to be satisfied with that, aren't they?

I mean there's really no need for them to have checked his domestic performances, is there? No, seriously.......

Brent Stephens
252 Posted 12/02/2020 at 14:22:29
Steven #253, I hadn't posted on this thread about Pickford until you'd posted quite a few.

I did miss something out, as you say. This one: "Yet, he is still highly regarded because of his England form - which I think you'll agree, is of no benefit to us". So no benefit to anybody else, then!

Agree, let's put an arm around Picks and hope he pleases us for the rest of the season. He does have faults in him, Steven!

Brent Stephens
253 Posted 12/02/2020 at 14:24:17
Jay #254 would I get a place in that team?!! I can waffle like the best of them.

Did I ever tell you about the time...

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

254 Posted 12/02/2020 at 14:34:27
Brent, I see your posts in this thread as a social service, not waffle.

Unfortunately, the intended recipient of your good deed appears a lost cause.

Now as for the time I capsized a canoe in the crocodile and piranha-infested waters of the mighty Amazon River...Zzzzzzzzzzz!

Brent Stephens
255 Posted 12/02/2020 at 14:41:34
Jay, capsized canoe, in the croc-infested and piranha-infested Amazon?

Go on, it was somebody else's canoe and you did it deliberately, didn't you!

I fought an eel in the Mersey once. At that time you would only see eels, as the quality of Mersey was not strained.

Ray Robinson
257 Posted 12/02/2020 at 15:49:16
While we're selling Pickford for double the price we paid for him, can we also get £60m for Keane because he played reasonably well for England a few years ago?

That leaves us with £100 - £120m if to spend on strengthening our team after the £10m - £20m on the easily obtainable superior replacement for Pickford. Surely that's a sound strategy for improving the team overall without breaking FFP?

After all, other teams don't really scrutinise their transfer targets do they? and don't realise how they've far they've regressed. We Evertonians do, but let's keep that our little secret.

I'm sure there's a flaw in that argument somewhere...?

Dave Abrahams
258 Posted 12/02/2020 at 16:00:58
Sam (255), Sam just a little tip: when you debate a topic with Martin, try not to use logic and common sense.
James Marshall
259 Posted 12/02/2020 at 16:22:16
NEWSFLASH: Goalkeeper makes a mistake, but team wins.

Next.

Ian Jones
260 Posted 12/02/2020 at 16:32:20
In all this talk about keepers, I'd like to give an honourable shout out to George Wood, a competent keeper for us in the late 1970s.

And also... just for a bit of light relief and for those commenting on Shilton, and probably more of interest to some of the older supporters, this video may be of interest, from 1973 vs Poland. The Polish keeper, referred to by Brian Clough as a clown, had a great game!

Link

John Pierce
261 Posted 12/02/2020 at 16:44:15
I do wonder about Pickford’s form for England versus that for Everton. I do watch England (many don’t now) but he never makes the mistakes that has characterised his time with us not does he seem to cut the same figure, he appears calmer.

Is it genuine competition for his place? Is it the defenders in front of him? Is it he rarely plays teams of any great standing at international level? Is it the pressure of playing for Everton?

Hmm?

Ray Roche
262 Posted 12/02/2020 at 17:04:38
Steven @251,

“His performances have been really poor for the last 2 or 3 years.”

Pickford signed in June 2017. Just over 2½ years ago. So, you're saying that, not only has he NEVER played well for us, he was actually shite playing for us BEFORE we signed him. Extraordinary talent.

David Connor
263 Posted 12/02/2020 at 17:16:05
Get used to the criticism, Jordan. It is well deserved. It's up to you to prove everyone wrong if you are capable. Not the brightest star in the sky, I think most people will admit.

Just get your head down and cut out the pissing around thinking you some kind of Bobby Moore or your England No 1 spot could be slipping away. It's in your hands... Or maybe not.

Steven Astley
264 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:19:32
"Ray @ 271"... you could say that, seeing as though Sunderland got relegated in 2017, conceding just shy of 70 goals in 38 games with a -40 goal difference. Oops.
Brian Williams
265 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:23:06
He's worth £60m now though
😂😂😂😂😂.
Chris Williams
266 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:27:40
And Pickford was personally responsible for every goal conceded, just as he is for all the goals conceded under Silva, with his witless organisation at set pieces?
Ray Roche
267 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:32:35
Steven... ''His performances for us'', not Sunderland. You're saying that he's NEVER played a decent game for us. And he was playing crap for us before we bought him. Maybe that's why we bought him?
Steven Astley
268 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:35:34
Ray, if you could take a poll of our fans when we signed him whether they were happy with his signing or not, I'd bet that we weren't overjoyed.
Brent Stephens
269 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:37:57
£60m AND UPWARDS - be fair.
Brent Stephens
270 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:39:22
Let's do a TW poll, then.

I was happy when we signed him.

Eric Paul
271 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:40:54
How many mistakes does he make compared to the amount of goals he prevents with outstanding saves? Some people don't count saves, they only count the mistakes.

Have a look at your favourite player, whoever it may be, and count his mistakes per game. Who would you prefer between the sticks?

Ray Roche
272 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:49:18
Brent, so was I.

And every bugger was saying how good our ''early business'' was, having signed Pickford AND Keane so early.

Steven, the hole is deep enough now, put your spade away, there's a good lad.

Paul Tran
273 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:54:08
I was happy when we signed him. I'm happy when he makes great saves and performances. I'm unhappy when he drops changers.

My over-riding view is that he's an erratic keeper that can make great saves. I prefer solid, reliable, consistent keepers who come and get crosses and dominate their area.

I hope he turns into one. If not, I hope we buy one.

Brent Stephens
274 Posted 12/02/2020 at 18:57:51
Steven #277 "if you could take a poll of our fans when we signed him whether they were happy with his signing or not, I'd bet that we weren't overjoyed".

Steven, have a look at this from when we signed him:

Link

Ray Robinson
275 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:00:36
Steven, I remember the press absolutely raving about his performance for Sunderland when they lost at Arsenal. I think he conceded 3 goals that day but saved about 10 certs.

What does 70 goals in 38 games mean when you're playing behind a defence as poor as Sunderland's was that season? His form for Sunderland was one of the reasons he was so sought after and why we paid £30m for him. Whether he subsequently lived up to expectations is a matter for opinion but, if he was as bad as you say he was, he would never have even played in the World Cup.

I respect your lack of regard for the lad, indeed share some reservations about him, but I fail to understand any of the logic in your arguments.

Replacing a goalie is easy, eh? Well it took Liverpool an awful long to get it right. Man City went through some real duffers and Chelsea seem to think they have wasted upwards of £70M on Kepa.

Steven Astley
276 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:01:45
Ray Roche, no hole here pal.

I'll stand by what I say that we won't improve unless we replace him. As Paul says above, he CAN pull off worldies, but he is just too erratic and doesn't command his goal enough for me.

As I said earlier, let's see how he gets on for the rest of the season.

Darren Hind
277 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:07:32
I was unhappy when we signed him... and so was my wife.
Mike Gaynes
278 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:09:42
Brent #283, thanks for posting that. Damn, I was really witty that day. Hasn't happened since.

Steven, Mr. Roche is right, if you go any deeper you're gonna hit magma and cause an eruption. Thousands will die. Stop.

Dave Abrahams
279 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:12:29
Brent (283), I suppose many fans were happy when we signed him and even after his first season with us... but every fan is entitled to change their minds after watching him for the last 3years, and I think quite a few have.
Brent Stephens
280 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:18:18
Dave, of course people are entitled to change their minds. I was just addressing Steven's claim about fans' views when we signed him.
Brian Williams
281 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:19:45
Come on lads let's have a chorus of "£60 mill, £60 mill, Jordan Pickford, £60 mill, £60 mill I saaaaaay."
Steven Astley
282 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:30:37
Brian, what's your point mate? Would we not get close to £60m for him do you think?
Dave Abrahams
283 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:32:07
Brent (289), yes, I understood your reply, but this thread is about how Jordan is performing and rated now.
Brent Stephens
284 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:36:00
Sorry, Dave, I was originally addressing Steven's point about the here and now but got side-tracked with his reference to people not being happy when we signed him. I accept that there are things in Jordan's recent performances that cause some concern. And I think he's immature in some of his antics.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

285 Posted 12/02/2020 at 19:44:34
In his first season at the club, Jordan Pickford picked up all three of the major awards at the club's annual bash:

Player of the year (voted for by the fans).
Young player of the year (voted for by the fans).
Players' player of the year (voted for by...ehrm...his fellow team mates).

He certainly fooled a lot of people, didn't he?

Carl Manning
286 Posted 12/02/2020 at 20:05:50
Statistically there's more chance of me dying juggling while driving than being eaten by a shark!

Who worked that one out!

Steven Astley
289 Posted 12/02/2020 at 20:15:28
Jay - It's 2020, not 2017-18.

But whilst you bring it up, looking back, we conceded 58 goals in the League, only topped by 5 other teams that season, 1 of which got relegated (the other 2 conceded less). Got knocked out of the FA Cup at the first time of asking and knocked out of the League Cup on Pickford's return to the 11 against Chelsea.

Good enough? Still, Jordan has 3 trophies in his cabinet to show for it. Next...

Steven Astley
291 Posted 12/02/2020 at 20:30:12
Jay, let's see how he does till the end of the season? :-)
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

293 Posted 12/02/2020 at 20:39:54
@ 298.

Because all of that was exclusively Jordan Pickford's fault, and so out of pity and to make him feel better both the supporters and his fellow professionals decided to vote for him in all three player of the season categories.

Just trying to embrace your (ahem!) school of 'logic' and 'rationale', Steven.

Reached Australia yet..?

Jerome Shields
301 Posted 12/02/2020 at 22:57:54
I coming across articles where Philip Neville and Ian Wright are commenting on Pickford s comments. I think it was a mistake for Pickford to make any comment, especially that type of comment. He comes across as just rising to being baited. It's like he has overreacted. It's like he reacts to away supporters' comments on matchdays.

Everton need to get a handle on this.

Steve Brown
302 Posted 13/02/2020 at 04:07:27
Many ToffeeWebbers were very positive when we signed Pickford, including me. English keeper, good potential, young and resale value. He was excellent in his first season but has become more inconsistent and erratic over the last two seasons.

Since the start of 2018, he has committed 8 individual errors that led directly to a goal (the highest in the Premier League) and, as Sam Hoare points out, his expected shot to save ratio is poor compared to peers at the Top 6 clubs.

If I went through the videos of our games from this season and 2018-19, I could also tally up numerous goals that he indirectly contributed to – he is a fantastic instinctive shot-shopper but vulnerable where positional awareness is key, eg, long shots, corners. But he is young and has operated behind a poor defence for the last few seasons.

He will probably come good but he needs proper competition for his place next season. Presently, I don't actually see him as one of our better players.

Martin Mason
303 Posted 13/02/2020 at 09:23:40
Jay @302, fantastic
Martin Mason
304 Posted 13/02/2020 at 09:45:19
Sam, I don't want to get into circular arguments with you but his status as Everton and England keeper is fact and statistics are not facts as they can be interpreted in many non-factual ways, they are simply data that can be used to draw conclusions that are also not facts.

I state this as fact: the raw data may or may not be fact – especially what happens on a football field where even the base data is the opinion of the observer – not fact – as we all see each event differently. Conclusions from football stats are, at very best, a broad brush indication of possibilities but never in a million years fact – unless you believe opinion is fact. Many do, Sam; I'd hope that you don't.

Yes, it's a fact that Pickford has conceded 38 goals in 26 games but any interpretation of that is meaningless on its own. However, the equal system of shots and saves that you feel shows Pickford to be inferior to his peers doesn't give fact – it gives an opinion based on that data. A barely meaningless and absolutely confirmation biased opinion because all shots aren't equal and the results are heavily biased by poor defences which we certainly have.

Just do a bit of research on whether statistics are facts, they are not, they are at best an observable measure of a numerical fact. You imply that the interpretation of this data is fact. It isn't, I'm sorry.

Steve Brown
305 Posted 13/02/2020 at 10:20:28
Martin @ 313, statistics are not facts. They are simply data that can be used to draw conclusions that are also not facts! But your empirically reliable and valid methodology is that his status as England No 1 keeper is fact because he was picked last time, regardless of whether he will be picked for the team in the next international.

Southgate should therefore discount analytics provided by the England back room staff on individual errrors that resulted in a goal/ expected shot to save ratios/ goals conceded. I can imagine the conversation "well your wishy-washy shite statistics aren't fact therefore we can discount them; Pickford was picked last time therefore he will be picked forever, because facts are what counts here lads not opinions."

Incomprehensible nonsense but ingenious. I will use it as an explanation to my CFO when I exceed my budget!

Jim Hardin
306 Posted 13/02/2020 at 12:46:11
I wonder on here if the critics ever played between the sticks behind good defenders and erratic or jut plain poor defenders? There is a huge difference on how the keepr is impacted. Playin behind a good organized defense allows a keeper to assume certain areas of his goal are going tobe taken away by a defender covering the player trying to shoot. This is not just being in front and stopping a cross, it is staying on or with the player as they are in the 18 yd box or closer to take away a cut back. As akeepr then, I know I can move with them and worry about the area between me and the psot I am moving towards. If the defender is useless then I cannot assume this and have to adjust my movements.This then changes my positioning and opens up the goal.
Jim Hardin
308 Posted 13/02/2020 at 13:22:42
Sorry for the last post, was typing and hit send by mistake. I could not edit it. Anyway, the point with all the typos was going to be that Pickford has not experienced a decline in his skills. He has played behind a poor defense. These defenders are not closing down players, helping Pickford by taking away parts of the goal and allowing him to cut angles. The openness and larger shooting angles allowed by the defense are the cause of many of the goals and lower save percentage.

There are metrics analyzing when a keeper should make a save based on the angles, distance, interference, directions of play and everything else. There are ways to analyze the positioning of the keeper across the goal line to see if they are where one would expect for certain shots or if they are anticipating too much and overplaying the shooter, or not moving because they are worried about a cutback, etc. They even analyze these things taking into account the keeper's style of play. At the end of the day, they are educated opinions by actual keepers and trainers.

One really cannot say the keeper made 3 saves on 6 shots as any indicator of a keeper's quality. I did not see Big Nev's game where he sat against the goalpost at halftime, but I believe he had let in 3 goals at that point. So the question is was he crap or were the shots basically ones that should have resulted in goals?

Pickford is a reactional keeper. This is a different style and positioning and reading of the situation than a proactive keeper. Everton knew this when he was purchased. If it is his style of play one doesn't like then fine. However, if you are judging his abilities, then judge him on how he performs the role of the keeper in the style in which he plays.

A keeper can become comfortable behind even an average defense and be effective. This requires a settled back three or four, however. When Everton decide on the back four and they play together, Pickford will be just fine.

Yann Sommer the goalkeeper for Borussia Mönchengladbach is a very good keeper who until this season played behind an average defense. Part of the system was an expectation that he would face a lot of shots. However, the defenders cut the angles down to minimize as much as possible the shooting lane so he wasn't covering the whole goal.

Give the defense and Pickford time to gel and I beleive you will be happy with Pickford just like Southgate is.

Martin Mason
309 Posted 13/02/2020 at 13:47:15
Steve, sorry but absolutely incorrect. Statistics can be used to improve the decision making or analytical process but fact they are not, they are subjective. Also incorrect is that his current status as England and Everton keeper which is empirical and factual can be changed by what happens to him from now on in those positions. I'm sorry that you struggle with logic but nothing you conclude could possible be concluded on anything that I've said. Statistics are amazingly important but that doesn't make them facts, they are not. Sorry also that while you state incomprehensible nonsense you make no demonstration of that. Statistics are not facts, do you dispute this?

Wow, our best ever goalie Nev thinks Pickford is pretty good. Doesn't he read these columns

Mark Guglielmo
310 Posted 13/02/2020 at 14:12:22
Martin 313 - statistics ARE facts and I'm not sure how you can say otherwise. They already happened, therefore they're the exact same level of fact as saying DCL has 11 goals this season.

Advanced metrics are based on "likelihood," so they're not facts as they've not happened yet.

But from reading your comments at 313 & 318, I would suggest reading up on xG (expected goals) and how it directly correlates to xGA (expected goals against; conceded). They 100% take into consideration all the objections you've brought up; quality of shot, etc. These are data points. The data is derived - literally - from 100,000+ historical stats. In other words, they're projections based entirely on what's happened before in the exact same situations, thousands of times.

Martin Mason
311 Posted 13/02/2020 at 16:23:46
Sorry but read this and thought that it was a reasonable alternative to Jordan is crap. I also note the point about Evertonians and whipping boys. We seemingly can't survive without them. :-)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsliverpool/jordan-pickford-undeserving-of-condemnation-but-everton-goalkeeper-learning-important-lessons/ar-BBZXY9O?ocid=spartanntp

Carl Manning
312 Posted 13/02/2020 at 22:58:19
Jim,

I saw a great piece with Tom Heaton on BBC this week. They showed a goal and asked him to go through it with a keeper's eye. It was fascinating to hear him explain what he works on in training with the defenders at Villa.

One of his points was that he walks the defenders through exactly where he wants them and the body shape he wanted them to have when facing shots from all angles and distances to help him cover as much of the goal as possible.

He then explains to them why and, in a game situation, if the defenders haven't followed instructions or training, that's when they get both barrels from him.

Is it something any of us can see Jordan doing with our defenders? Or does it come from experience? That level of detail must surely make a difference.

Si Cooper
313 Posted 14/02/2020 at 01:33:30
Mark, the data is the factual stuff but as interpretation can vary you can't automatically say that all statistics are as worthwhile as each other.

You are right to bring xG into the equation as that is an attempt to put the data into context, but Sam seemed to be quoting from very simple statistics; a save percentage based solely on amount of goals versus amount of shots.

I agree with Alan J Thompson - discussion of the missed save should include an equal amount of criticism for Lucas Digne failing abjectly to get a block in. Pickford still should have made the save though, which is exactly what he has admitted.

Brian Wilkinson
314 Posted 16/02/2020 at 19:09:29
Neville Southall wrote a great piece the other day...

Jordan Pickford should do well to listen to the greatest and take it all in.

Brian Wilkinson
315 Posted 16/02/2020 at 19:12:44
The best way for a goalkeeper to answer anyone is to play well, that's it. You don't have to say anything, you don't have to do anything else. Just go and do your job.

“Stick what the pundits have said about you up on the wall in the training ground or the dressing room above where you get changed and say ‘today I'm going to prove them wrong.'

Brian Wilkinson
316 Posted 16/02/2020 at 19:14:12
Southall added: “Jordan has got a choice to make. He either moans about it or gets on and changes it because you can change people's opinions with your performances.

“If I worried about what everyone said about me, I wouldn't be here.

“Unfortunately when you play in a position where one mistake can ruin the whole game for you and your team and the fans' weekend that's just the way it is.

“If anybody criticised me and I'd go away and think: 'Have they got a point? Maybe they have, maybe they've not.'

“The best way to respond is to make them eat their words and Jordan can only do that by playing well.”

Pickford is in a unique position at Everton in that he's the club's first established England number one.

Carl Manning
317 Posted 17/02/2020 at 18:15:22
Just read Allison has saved 81 out of 87 shots faced!

That’s the standard!

Alan McGuffog
318 Posted 17/02/2020 at 18:28:00
Allison. The aim wasn’t true.
Darren Hind
319 Posted 17/02/2020 at 18:41:36
Martin Mason 304+309

Get paid.

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