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Roma want to bring Kean back to Italy

| Friday, 10 April 2020 72comments  |  Jump to last
AS Roma are being linked with another Everton player, this time Moise Kean who is reportedly a target for clubs wanting to bring him back to Seria A after a "disappointing" spell in the Premier League.

The 20-year-old striker was a high-profile acquisition from Juventus last summer but struggled to make an impact at Goodison Park as Marco Silva's tenure as manager at the club imploded.

Kean scored his first and only goal to date for the Toffees earlier this year but has had to fight for minutes as Dominic Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison have formed a strong attacking partnership.

That has led to talk of the Italy U21 striker returning home but despite him expressing his happiness at Everton, Football Italia are suggesting he is frustrated and that Roma will bid to sign him when the transfer window reopens.

Original Source: Football Italia  


Reader Comments (72)

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Gavin Johnson
1 Posted 10/04/2020 at 20:13:25
A straight swap for Cengiz Under could solve the problem down the right and would unable us to buy a striker who could come in and take the pressure off Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison.

While I think Moise Kean would eventually come good for us, I do feel he's a work in progress due to his age. I also don't think he'll get the luxury of game time like Calvert-Lewin to develop and make mistakes unless he goes out on loan. So I'd offload him and bring in someone like Milik or Belotti as a replacement.

Mike Gaynes
2 Posted 11/04/2020 at 01:04:27
Gavin, Under would be a great addition, but I don't think we should sell Kean. I love his power, pace and courage. Might be a late bloomer as a goalscorer, but worth waiting for in my book.

I don't see either Milik or Belotti coming to us as third-choice forward. Belotti would be costly -- West Ham couldn't get him for £55 million -- and Milik has made it clear his Premier League dreams begin and end at Old Trafford.

Derek Knox
3 Posted 11/04/2020 at 03:48:11
Besides the talk of any possible transfers at this time and in this Covid-19 Climate, I tend to agree with Mike G that this lad has something to offer, and I believe it would be an error to offload him this early. I do believe he will come good.

Although, having said that, his acclimatisation to the Premier League is taking longer than one would have liked. However, it has not been helped by infrequent appearances and mostly then from the bench in the dying embers of the game.

Gavin, I know very little about this Cengiz Under; perhaps you, or anyone for that matter, could enlighten me, as to his ability, which could be a gamble. The last Turkish acquisition didn't turn out too well for us. Although I did like the lad, he knew where the goal was, but did not suit our method of playing.

Mike Gaynes
4 Posted 11/04/2020 at 05:38:24
DK, this guy Under is sort of a miniature Mahrez without the big shot. Left-footed RW, cat-quick, can find the goal on occasion but makes his major contribution with dribbles and assists. Fun to watch.
Darren Hind
5 Posted 11/04/2020 at 05:46:31
It's the old foreign glamour many Evertonians regularly fall for.

Even taking into consideration his age, the language barrier and the fact that he is playing in a difficult-to-adjust-to league, he has shown very little.

Yet another foreign player from which many have seen qualities which he hasn't actually shown – YouTube has much to answer for.

At his age, Victor Anichebe was rampaging around Europe and looking so much better than Kean does now, but he was vilified by many. There was no "Let's be patient with him" for big Vic... Wonder why that was?

Anichebe ended up a very wealthy young man, but ultimately proved to be not good enough. I expect Kean to emulate him on both counts.

Conor McCourt
6 Posted 11/04/2020 at 10:20:12
Darren and Gavin, I couldn't disagree more with both of you. Not many players can go into the Premier League and tear it up straight away like Bruno and Martinelli. Don't forget Bruno flopped in Italy when more mature than Kean.

You look at the lists of players that struggled in their first season in the Premier League and I expect great improvement from the likes of Pepe and Kean next season. This lad is not some foreign flop but is the best young striker in Italy. I have watched him at Under-21 level for his country and he looks the beast we have only seen cameos of against the neighbours and Newcastle.

Kean has power, pace, athleticism, has excellent movement and finishing and is still only a boy adapting to a new country and all that entails. He is finding everything too fast at the moment and looks a little lost. I do agree there has to be a question mark over his temperament and he has the possibility of flitting away his career like a Balotelli but, in terms of potential, I don't think the likes of Milik and Belotti are in the same league.

I think it would be madness to let him go now considering we have paid his wages while he is acclimatising and, should he excel, Carlo will have the option of dropping Richarlison to left-wing which also solves that problem area and gets even more goals in the team.

Conor McCourt
7 Posted 11/04/2020 at 11:11:50
Darren, the Anichebe comparison is pointless. He grew up in the Everton academy so him rampaging for us in Europe was not close to the level of what Kean was doing for Juve last season at a younger age. Kean's problems, I believe are due to acclimatisation not ability.

You have rightly been a staunch advocate of Dominic when others have dismissed him but, in his three seasons before this season, he scored only 11 Premier League goals in 3 seasons and been very inconsistent also. He has been given time to come good and I hope Moise will get the same patience.

I believe Kean has the best natural movement, is the best finisher and is the most dynamic of our front three despite his early struggles, so is not someone we should give up on too quickly.

Richard Mason
8 Posted 11/04/2020 at 12:35:17
Kean's game against Newcastle was immense, he really showed what he could do. Unfortunately got dropped when maybe should have had the next game after such a strong showing.

I don't think he will be sold, but Under and Belotti would be nice.

Tony Everan
9 Posted 11/04/2020 at 15:54:42
I don't think we should sell Moise Kean. But, at his age, he definitely needs games. It's doing him no favours sitting on the bench. Next season cannot be a 'same again' job. If he is not going to be a starter or get regular games, send him on loan to a good Italian side with a guarantee that he will be played and get experience. Then, he comes back to Everton and we give him his chance to stake his claim.

He is only 20, Calvert-Lewin is young at 23 so he needs a bit more development time. With more maturity and more experience, he could well become a beast of a player, the signs are there. It could be a massive mistake to sell him and I hope the club don't.

It's a possibility that Richarlison will be moved out wide and Moise will get a starting berth alongside Calvert-Lewin in a 4-4-2 , especially for home games. Injuries and cup games could see him step in too.

Darren Hind
10 Posted 11/04/2020 at 16:14:30
The Anichebe comparison is not pointless, Conor.

You claim Kean has power pace and athleticism. Those were all the qualities attributed to Big Vic when he was a teenager. There are striking similarities. I can still remember Anichebe hitting a screamer at Birmingham and thinking, Wow!

Vic's problem wasn't his ability, it was his attitude. but he was better at that age than Kean is now.

If you really believe Calvert-Lewin has been given time and patience, you must have been watching different games to me. He has been hammered and I don't mean people simply stating they don't rate him. He was murdered by ignorant criticism. scapegoated and blamed, sometimes carrying the whole can for a defeat. Even now he only has to miss a half-chance and his critics have the knives out.

I won't ever hammer a youngster. That doesn't mean I will pretend to see qualities they haven't exhibited

Calvert-Lewin always showed the qualities to play in the Premier League – despite being played here there and everywhere and for long periods played up front alone by half-witted managers because their expensive signings couldn't cut it.

You won't see me hammering Kean. He may well go on to have a better career than Calvert-Lewin... but I think he will have to find a league which suits his style better. I don't think it will be in this one.

Tony Abrahams
11 Posted 11/04/2020 at 17:52:03
Agree with Richard @8, because I also thought Moise Kean was very good against Newcastle. I would be very surprised if Ancelotti gets rid of him before he gives the kid a proper run of games, now that he must have adapted to life in England.
Conor McCourt
12 Posted 11/04/2020 at 18:59:46
Darren, I don't think they are comparable players and my point is that Kean's performances for us is not the same as when he played both for Juve and his country.

Moise's goal record for his teams at youth and senior level (bar us) is astounding, while Victor was averaging a goal a season until his last few at Goodison. I think Kean enjoys playing off the shoulder and will suit playing with Calvert-Lewin as opposed to being a battering ram.

I agree with you about the lack of support from the terraces for Dominic but I was referring to the Club rather than fans showing patience and hope they do the same with Moise. I wasn't criticising Dominic, rather complimenting his development and highlighting that patience can be rewarded and, as you point out, there can be reasons for perceived stagnation. Kean imo has all the ingredients to be a top player, but it's up to him to go and do it. I feel he should be given more leeway than the likes of Iwobi and Delph, however, who were bought for the here and now.

I disagree with Tony E that he needs to go out on loan as everything is in his own hands here. Coming on as sub is perfect as it keeps the pressure off while our front two are continuing to flourish. Should his performances from the bench improve to the level we hope there is a clear starting place for him with Richarlison dropping to the left.

Steve Shave
13 Posted 11/04/2020 at 19:05:33
I am one to support our young players but I admit to getting on Kean's case a bit this season. I admit he was unlucky not to start the next game after Newcastle, he had a good game.

That said I have not really seen what all the fuss is about, his touch looks poor and it hasn't worked out so far. I hope he proves me wrong.

Joe McMahon
14 Posted 11/04/2020 at 19:45:40
Kean for me is a must keep. This guy has ability. If he was a product of our Academy, everyone would be raving about him. We have had many dross strikers at Everton over the past 20 years, Moise isn't one of them.
Darren Hind
15 Posted 11/04/2020 at 20:25:26
Conor. Not true.

After being named reserve team player of the year at 17, Anichebe was given a few cameos the next season. 4 goals when he was 18 and 5 when he was 19.

Anichebe the boy was everthing you say Kean is and more. He was bigger faster. stronger. I saw him murder Rio Ferdinand at Old Trafford and come on to do the same to John Terry in the cup game we won on penalties at Stamford Bridge.

Whether Anichebe would have become a regular Premier League player had shithouse Nolan not effectively ended his career shortly after he had turned 20 is debatable. He was already a sulking baby with a very poor attitude, but remember this: he already had scored 10 goals for the first team by the time he was Kean's age.

Like Kean, his appearances were mostly as a last-ditch substitution. He too was often played out of position.

Kean has scored 1 goal in 22. I just don't see where this big improvement is going to come from.

I definitely think if he had come through the academy, instead of being a big money glamour signing from Europe, many of those screaming for patience would have long since thrown him to the wolves.

Gavin Johnson
16 Posted 11/04/2020 at 20:54:20
Mike, there's a story going around today that we've made a £39.5M offer for Belotti which has been turned down by Torino. If we were to sign someone like Belotti or Milik, I would expect either of them to fight to play in a front two. The same as Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison.
Pat Kelly
17 Posted 11/04/2020 at 21:53:48
We'll miss his goal. But then not nearly as much as he misses them. Another product of the hype that passes for talent.
Andy Crooks
18 Posted 11/04/2020 at 22:03:44
I don't understand rumours of bids. Nobody is buying anybody anytime soon. This is not how I expected the bubble to burst but it is burst for good.
Conor McCourt
19 Posted 11/04/2020 at 22:22:31
Darren, most of those goals were in the early rounds of Europe and, to my eye, Anichebe could never finish like this lad can. He only scored 4 in those 2 Premier League campaigns so isn't anywhere near as predatory as Kean and 7 in his first 6 seasons.

I take your point on what you have seen from both in a blue shirt which as you say is what counts and your scepticism is certainly warranted but I will be putting a line through this season as I feel we have only seen the real Moise Kean sporadically.

This lad apparently made a huge impression on loan then looked the real deal at Juve. I saw a few of his games at U21 level because Ireland are in the same group and again he looked different gravy even allowing for the easier level.

I remember some Man City fans laughing at Fernandinho and Fred was described as Man Utd's worst ever signing yet they were experienced internationals who struggled to hit the ground running. I know it takes a leap of faith but it's still early days.

Kase Chow
20 Posted 11/04/2020 at 23:05:28
My issue with Kean is that he can't even control the ball. That has nothing to do with settling into a country – he can't even trap it!!!

Then lots of posts above are praising his finishing... when?!?! Serie A when 3 defenders are marking Ronaldo is different to finishing in the Premier League.

Then people make excuses for his age. But Mason Greenwood, Neto and Martinelli have comfortably outscored Kean (plus look like footballers Kean does not!!)

Then people also make the excuse that he's from a different league and needs to settle in. Well, Neto and Martinelli are also from different leagues. Martinelli is from a different continent!!!!

There's no genuine excuses – the guy is a rich man's Sandro. Neither can control the ball. Neither can score regularly in the Premier League. And neither will make it at Everton.

Get rid.

Darren Hind
21 Posted 12/04/2020 at 02:59:33
You really do prove my point for me, Conor.

You distort what you see as the glamorous foreigner's stats in order to make him look better and you repeatedly distort and talk down the academy boy's stats in order to make him look worse.

Anichebe had scored five Premier League goals at Kean's age. His goal against Nuremburg was scored within minutes of coming on. His goal against Metalist Kharkiv was quite possibly one of the best individual goals from an Everton player this century.

Like many an academy player before him – and quite a few since – Vic was the whipping boy, but he was still well ahead of Kean at his age.

I won't take your route of talking down Kean in order to boost Anichebe. As I said, I don't agree with knocking young players, but I will never understand why expensive imports are treated so very differently to boys coming through.

When I hear people dismiss the likes of Holgate whilst bigging up Mina (and there were many of them) or labeling Davies "League One" whilst calling Iwobi "an exciting prospect" ... I shake my head in disbelief.

Anichebe and Kean... One loved by fans who permanently scream for more time due to these imaginary flashes of brilliance. The other vilified and abused as a teenager – despite actual flashes of brilliance. One a £30M signing from Italy, the other an academy boy who cost nothing. I don't get it. I guess I never will.

I would love to see Kean come good, I really would... but if he gets to the stage when he s scoring more in a season than the guy who "couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo", I'll start trainspotting... and collecting stamps.

Sam Hoare
22 Posted 12/04/2020 at 07:22:39
Kase @20; I think first touch can have a huge amount to do with confidence. Players who lack confidence are just straining everything, trying a bit too hard and that often has an effect on touch. And finishing.

I've been disappointed in Kean. But then he's not been given much time and missed opportunities he might have scored in his first handful of games.

He looks to have some raw ingredients; pace, power, strength and smart movement... so I hope we'll see better in the next season or two.

Conor McCourt
23 Posted 12/04/2020 at 11:23:21
Darren, Happy Easter to you and all Blues.

Darren, I'm not glamourising anything as I've already conceded that Anichebe performed better in his first season in a blue shirt. It's just Anichebe to me was never a goalscorer and it's nothing to do with being from the academy.

Moise Kean has scored one in two at all levels bar the Premier League, for his club and country, which is superb. He has been a major disappointment at Goodison, no doubt, but I raise the point about Europe because we are not comparing like with like.

Kase has spoken about two gems in Martinelli and Neto who have clearly outperformed Kean but with those and Anichebe they were also getting chances in Europe against weaker opposition which could build confidence. If Kean had ten games in the Europa League,like Neto, or an FA Cup run, who's to say he wouldn't have had a few goals to take into the Premier League? He has been unable to get going and was back on the bench after his only sparkling display.

Don't worry, I see him falling over his feet, his failure to trap the ball, his performance on the right wing for 45 minutes where I nearly broke the telly, and his constant conceding of possession. I'm not trying to fool anyone.

But what I will say, irrelevant from his reputation and just solely on his Everton time, I saw a run on his debut that none of our other attackers had made when the ball didn't come and he was clean thorough; I saw him drift off the back post looking for scraps which I don't often see from our strikers; I saw him make a run against Watford for the winning goal in which he always made himself available at anytime for Richarlison's pass and blocked his defender from getting into position; and after his embarrassing scuff and fall on his ass, I saw his desire and instinct to get back up and follow on if Walcott was to miss.

These little moments tell me this boy will score goals despite often stinking the place out; he wants to be in there and he wants the responsibility when he gets it. He has loads to work on but he has the raw material.

Robert Tressell
24 Posted 12/04/2020 at 11:46:50
I'd be sad to see Kean leave now. He turned up at Everton at the worst time for a teenager who must have been unsettled after some appalling racist abuse from fans (and equally appallingly lack of support from senior teammates). The team and management were all over the place.

In particular, the midfield is highly dysfunctional – not suited at all to someone who needs quick accurate passes to find his intelligent runs. When Gomes, Gbamin, Bernard and Iwobi are settled and gelling, I expect Kean will look a lot better than Calvert-Lewin (and I'm a big fan of him).

I sort of get the comparison to Anichebe but, a few games & goals aside, Big Vic did not look like much of a footballer and did very well (with good coaching from Moyes) to become as effective as he did for us.

Darren Hind
25 Posted 12/04/2020 at 12:00:52
Conor,

I don't know if John Daley was still posting when you first logged into TW. His posts were quite simply a cut above. Razor sharp, really knowledgeable and an ability to make others laugh out loud.

After coming off second-best in an exchange with him. I instructed my lads that, if ever I was in a court of law, they were to hunt him down and pay him what he wants to represent me.

I like to think John still logs on from time to time but, in his absence, I was hoping you may step in and represent me should the need ever arise.

Not sure you are always right, but you contest every single point as if it was match point.

Fair play. Happy Easter... and believe it or not, I sincerely hope you are right on this occasion.

Tony Abrahams
26 Posted 12/04/2020 at 12:03:19
Interesting, Conor, because although he should have scored, I also saw Kean, do something I've very rarely seen Everton forwards do in all my years of watching them: his first touch and great acceleration took him away from Liverpool's defenders in Marco Silva's last game, but his shot was the wrong side of the post though.
Ian Bennett
27 Posted 12/04/2020 at 12:16:01
Be patient with him. How many other 20-year-olds are ripping up a major league in a struggling team?

His pedigree says give him another 2 years to see if he can make it.

Kase Chow
28 Posted 12/04/2020 at 14:54:24
Ian #27,

If you can't be bothered to read the previous messages then why should anyone be bothered to respond to yours?

Paul Jones
29 Posted 12/04/2020 at 15:16:01
By the time Kean maybe near to fulfilling the potential he was bought for, he will be near the end and running down his contract. Unlikely to remain at Everton if proven successful. His agent is probably already lamenting the move to Man Utd that has not materialised.

At present, he looks like one of those players that will end up at a Serie A team that you remember the name of from Channel 4 football but would struggle to find the city or town on the map.

Mike Gaynes
30 Posted 12/04/2020 at 16:01:22
Conor, Darren's right, you argue a great case.

My belief has always been that comparisons of two players are pointless. Debates about "He's another _____" or "He'll never be ______" always seem to end up as clay-court tennis matches -- endless 40-shot rallies.

Just because two players have power, pace, athleticism doesn't make them even remotely comparable in my view, because a dozen other factors enter into whether one or the other will be more successful.

Of one thing I'm certain – the failure of another superficially resemblant but entirely different player a decade ago is of zero predictive value when applied to Moise Kean. Like Robert, I look forward to seeing him playing in front of a competent, creative midfield. Let's just hope we have one soon.

Paul #29, Kean's contract runs for four more years, thru June 2024, so we'll certainly have a verdict on him long before he starts "running down his contract."

Conor McCourt
31 Posted 12/04/2020 at 19:56:04
Darren, you are some boy; you kick me about this site for two days leaving me bruised and battered and then give me a typical Everton style Marcel Brands signing "If I can't get the man I want, you'll do" half-arsed compliment.

No, I grew up with an Irish mother and three sisters so I need to come on ToffeeWeb to get a word in edgeways. That was nice of you to say as the likes of yourself and Paul A Smith (wherever he went) made me feel really welcome on here this time, which was greatly appreciated, and your posts are always of great interest to me because they are heart-felt, explosive, really insightful, and most importantly, always challenge my views.

I particularly like Mike and yourself going toe to toe because it's quite a battle but the mutual respect, admiration and sporting nature overwhelmingly shine through.

John Daley's name registers with me but I don't remember his posts unfortunately, he's probably away playing golf these days (sorry).

With regards to your offer, I have been back on here for over a year or so now so I have seen how many poor ToffeeWebbers you have upset, so let's get one thing clear: to represent you, I don't want to be just paid – I want friggin danger money also!

I have re-read your post and have come to the conclusion that it wasn't even a compliment, half-arsed or not, but a kind-hearted, long-winded way of calling me a waffler!!!

Mark Andersson
32 Posted 12/04/2020 at 22:04:58
Carlo will have plans; if he lets him go, it's because he knows better.

I enjoyed the battle of wits of Darren and Co, both make good cases. I'm with Darren in as much as how fans perceive a player based on hype or potential.

Ability is only as good as attitude. So many factors to take into consideration when talking of potential.

If Kean stays and fullfills his promise, he will be sold anyway.

Darren Hind
33 Posted 13/04/2020 at 04:39:36
Mike,

I did not compare Anichebe to Kean simply because they were both considered to have "pace, power and athleticism". They were not even my words. I simply quoted the words Conor used to describe Kean.

My intention was to compare their incredibly similar circumstances as opposed to styles (note, I'm saying similar – not identical) and the stark difference between the support they received from the fan base.

Both of these kids were ill-used. Both of them were played out of position (Anichebe more than Kean) at a time they were trying to learn their trade. Both were often sent on so late, it was nigh-on impossible for them to make an impact. Both were cruelly judged by the stat crazies who would simply quote how many appearances they had made and how many goals they had scored – I did the same myself to demonstrate the irony.

Anichebe must have played well over 100 games for Everton, but I think I read somewhere that he holds the club record for the most appearances as a substitute. I'm sure it's around 80.

I don't need telling that Kean has not been given a proper chance, but those who are calling for more time for him must realise that, barring injuries, he is unlikely to get that time.

There are inevitable comparisons to be drawn, but it is the stark contrast in the way they are treated by the fans which gets me back on my old hobby horse.

With the best will in the world, Kean has been unable to demonstrate what he can do since he arrived; but, every time he gets warmed up, the crowd are up and applaud him, willing him on. Barely a day passes by without somebody on TW pleading for more time for him. More patience.

In contrast, by the time he was 20, Big Vic was having his named booed when it was announced before a ball was kicked.

We love a big foreign signing. Our fan base seem to be totally blinded by them. Ability often seems secondary. When I think of the fanfares which have greeted all those useless fuckers brought in to get us goals... the money squandered.

The fact that our much abused, "useless" "Championship-at-best" young striker has come through and seen the fucking lot of them off won't change anything. Time and patience should be afforded to ALL youngsters. Not just the foreigners with the fancy YouTube footage.

Conor,

It was intended as a compliment... even though you were wrong.

Mike Gaynes
34 Posted 13/04/2020 at 08:35:21
Darren, understood. Per Transfermarkt, Vic made 168 appearances for Everton, 95 of them as a substitute -- and you're right, that has simply gotta be a club record. Per TalkSport, Vic made the 9th most sub appearances in Prem history with 107 including WBA and Sunderland. (If you're interested, Crouch and Ameobi share the record at 142.)
https://talksport.com/football/307363/most-used-substitutes-premier-league-history-revealed-171106261050/

I wasn't aware that Vic was being booed at age 20, but I would point out that by that time he was already deep into his 3rd season with the club, with more than 60 appearances. Kean hasn't even played one full season yet, so the overall fan base hasn't had time to sour on him. I think his flashes of talent are more to credit for their patience than his foreign origin. Remember, Lookman had an extended honeymoon too, and he's English.

Personally, I never particularly rated Vic. Much as I liked him for his physical style and positivity, I was unimpressed with his finishing power and work rate. I never for a moment thought he was a future starter, let alone a potential star. (The Metalist Kharkiv goal was excellent, but I think your description greatly oversells it.)

As for Kean, I'd say let's see how he performs with a real manager and, as I said, a real midfield.

Eric Paul
35 Posted 13/04/2020 at 09:08:07
If I remember right, Vic started to get booed after refusing to play in a derby whilst being our only fit striker.
Sam Hoare
36 Posted 13/04/2020 at 09:19:30
I always liked Vic, he was a proper handful, but I think his overall career is probably indicative of his true talent set.

He was a physical presence, good at making space for others, distracting defenders and coming up with a goal every five games or so. James Vaughan was the better player I reckon and seemed a proper goalscorer.

As for fans being biased towards foreign players i'm not so sure. Certainly its exciting when we splash cash on someone who's billed as Juventus' bright young things but equally I think alot of us love to see homegrown talent get onto the pitch.

The biggest boo boy of the last two seasons has surely got to be Schneiderlin or possibly Sigurdsson. Who can forget the many who used to hurl abuse at Lukaku who was comfortably our best striker in the last decade? I think most players get judged on what people see on the pitch irrelevant of where they come from. We all want young players to deliver on their potential but its been an unforgiving crowd for the last two years as results have not reflected the new expectations that splashing cash brings.

Dave Abrahams
37 Posted 13/04/2020 at 10:01:43
Sam (36), Sam I think it has been an unforgiving crowd not out of malice but if they see lack of effort in any player they let them know it.

In Schneiderlin and Lukaku’s case lack of effort and playing within themselves and for themselves was the reason they were barracked, in Sigurdsson’s it was because he has been very poor in most games and hardly in the game and to be honest Ancelotti has been forced to play because of the limited number of midfielders able to play, well at least I hope that was the case.

One of the worst cases of players getting booed was Tom Cleverely, a player who always gave of his best even when played out of position mostly, he was substituted in one game and booed off the field, a disgrace by every one who booed him and there were plenty.

Darren Hind
38 Posted 13/04/2020 at 11:08:44
Sam

Show me a boy who came through our ranks and I will show you somebody who has taken incredible stick from an early age – Rooney excepted

You may be right about Sigurdsson and Schneiderlin getting the most stick over a 2-year period, but that is for the very reasons Dave A speaks about.

They got away with murder for years because of their ability. Only after seasons of turning a blind eye to their lack of effort did the crowd finally run out of patience with them.

Those two must love it when Tom Davies is selected or comes on as sub. He only needs to step onto the pitch and he immediately diverts attention. The boo boys turn on him with even greater venom.

Whether you believe Davies is good enough or not, he works more in one half than the £75m foreign partnership do in an entire match. Not being good enough isn't a crime. Not working hard enough is.

Sam Hoare
39 Posted 13/04/2020 at 11:35:12
Darren and Dave, yes I think not putting in the effort is certainly a one way ticket to losing the faithful. That was my bug-bear with Schneiderlin, watching him refuse to move into space or bust a gut to get back.

But Darren, I really think that all players get incredible stick the moment they start making mistakes. I don't go to Gooddison so perhaps its different there but it seems on here and other fansites and awful social media etc that players just have to make a few errors before they are virtually strung up! Doesn't matter whether you are a kid or not.

Iwobi cost £30m and he's been slaughtered this season for not doing a whole heap wrong despite not getting alot of time. Keane cost a small fortune but was ridiculed in his first season. Even Digne has been getting slagged off despite being our player of the year last season.

I think the kids who come in naturally make mistakes and they are lambasted for them like others. Most people have the players they like that they are prepared to defend and players they like that they are prepared to attack. I think you are like me and tend to like the kids; I've stood up for the likes of Calvert-Lewin and Holgate over the last few years but I like Davies less and have probably given him more stick. Being foreign and having good pedigree can persuade people to take a favourable stance (as can having good hair! I'm amazed at how many plaudits Gomes gets for his performances for us) but if you makes mistakes or don't pull your weight it won't last long. There are very few players who escape the ire of some quarter or other if we are having a bad month I reckon.

I think you, like me, expect people to have a little more patience with kids who are obviously going to make those mistakes and need more time to adjust.

Brian Harrison
40 Posted 13/04/2020 at 11:47:23
Darren

I don't remember Tommy Wright getting much stick, I was lucky enough to go to the same school as Tommy, so saw him close up as a youngster. And as you say I don't remember Rooney getting any stick although he was still very young when he left. I know you steadfastly champion all our young players, and even more so the youngsters born here, and there is nothing wrong in that.

This argument comes up all the time are our homegrown players given more stick than those who are not. I really don't know if that's true, or just a myth. Yes, I heard even Colin Harvey getting stick, but there are very few players who don't get stick from time to time. I know Joe Royle got stick when he replaced Alex Young, but bye and large Joe didn't get a lot of stick either as I remember.

I think the worst bit of stick I recall was when we replaced Bobby Collins with Dennis Stevens. On his debut at Goodison he was booed every time he touched the ball, I can't remember any player being booed on his debut. And although he was never truly accepted by large sections of the crowd it didn't seem to affect his play. The one thing that you got from Stevens was 100% commitment in every game he played, but as I say there were still lots who didn't like him.

Tony Abrahams
41 Posted 13/04/2020 at 12:10:49
Before Rooney, I’d say it was Jeffers and Ball, that were the last two kids coming through who never got much stick, but both of these were very talented kids, and Sam, is correct in my opinion, because James Vaughan, also seemed to be appreciated by the crowd.

I thought Victor, played his best football in Europe, and also thought it was only in this competition, that Everton played to the kids strength? Big strong centre-forwards, should always get the ball to feet, around the edge of the box imo, and this is the only time when Anichibe looked like he could become a decent player, in my eyes?

I can’t believe Victor has been used from the bench that often, because he used to come on, and instantly look like he didn’t even want to be on the pitch sometimes, and that’s why I was never really endeared to him, in the same way I was to his partner, the fearless James Vaughan?

Martin Nicholls
42 Posted 13/04/2020 at 12:31:09
Sam #36 – interesting that you should mention James Vaughan as I was just about to.

A young lad who I used to sit next to in the Top Balcony knew and had played football with both – his oft repeated comment was "James is 10 times the player that Victor will ever be". Sadly, injuries to both meant that we never got to find out.

As for young players who got no stick when coming into the team – a long time ago I know, but Alan Whittle??

Martin Nicholls
43 Posted 13/04/2020 at 12:36:22
Seem to remember Victor once having a cracking game against Chelsea in which he bullied and gave Khalid "the cannibal" Boulahrouz the runaround. Any one else recall it?
Dave Abrahams
44 Posted 13/04/2020 at 12:59:38
Sam (39), the two players you mention Iwobi and Keane both got and get stick for two different reasons, in my opinion, Iwobi has a decent amount of skill but goes missing from the game, jumps out of 50-50 tackles and goes hiding from the game,

Keane is a different kettle of fish, how he got so far in the game including getting around 10 England caps just amazes me, his lack of awareness, anticipation and heading ability for a centre-half is beyond belief. I never boo any player but Michael Keane has my heart in my mouth every time he plays for the Blues. I just can't believe how poor he is, definitely a liability... but I stress that is just my opinion.

Ray Roche
45 Posted 13/04/2020 at 13:15:19
Brian@40

Dennis Stevens. My Dad always said that, as a player, he was ahead of his time.

I thought he was a much underrated player. Non-stop running, maximum effort, fearless tackling and a far better player than some people gave him credit for. Some of the mouth breathers who gave him stick wouldn't know a player if he tackled them.

Brian Harrison
46 Posted 13/04/2020 at 13:29:55
Ray

I know that many yeatrs after he finished playing for us said he was ahead of his time. He was a real box-to-box player, tough-ackling, could pass a ball but, as I recall, didn't score many goals. I think the hardest thing for Dennis was he was always being compared to Bobby Collins.

Back in those days, players didn't bring out autobiographies, but I would love to have heard his thoughts on his Everton career. I think, if memory serves me well, Dennis was involved in the Nat Lofthouse's controversial goal against Man Utd in the Cup Final. It was the shot from Dennis that the keeper parried in the air and, as he was about to catch it, Lofthouse barged him into the net.

Darren Hind
47 Posted 13/04/2020 at 13:31:35
I always thought Vic had more God-given talent than Vaughany, but He always kind of struck me as someone who didn't love the game.
Vaughan, on the other hand, loved it a little too much for his own good. His enthusiasm was possibly his downfall. Most of his injuries were caused by going for balls that were never his to go for.

Tony

Jeffers most definitely did take stick. Kevin Campell could do no wrong in the eyes of the fans, but when Jeffers was having a poor game. The fans certainly let him know about it

Its interesting that we are going back as far as Tommy Wright and Alan Whittle to find home grown players who didn't get the treatment. They played 50 years ago.

Dave Abrahams
48 Posted 13/04/2020 at 13:31:35
Ray (45), Your dad knew his football Ray, I loved Dennis Stevens as a player and a man, one genuine fella.

When I went to watch Everton, especially away, I was always more confident when Dennis was playing, played for ninety minutes, never flinched no matter how tough it got and he plenty of skill to match the plenty of energy he had, a great signing by Harry Catterick although it meant the loss of one of my favourites, Bobby Collins.

As a man, four lads I knew bummed a ride on the Everton coach coming back from the Barnsley fa cup game in 1963, they knew some of the players, the coach stopped on the way home at a country inn, as the players were getting off Dennis asked the lads if they were coming in, they explained they were brassic, Dennis said “ I never asked you how much you had, I asked you if you were coming in” so they followed him and Dennis did the honours regarding their pints of bitter.

Paul Tran
49 Posted 13/04/2020 at 14:11:20
It's all about expectations and a bit of confirmation bias. We're all desperate for a hero, especially strikers, so when we pay a big fee, there's a propensity for exaggerated hope and enormous tolerance. With Kean so far, it's all hope, tolerance and not much evidence.

With the players coming through the ranks there's always been a throwaway argument against them as if some are thinking 'OK, we've tried him for one game, let's buy a proper player.' Since Rooney, this has got worse, because the younger players are compared to an unbelievably great outlier.

The young players that have come through the ranks in the past few years have all had an impressive attitude and workrate. You could argue that they've carried the 'senior' players on many occasions. I won't criticise them.

The criticism is usually habitual, whoever it is. I remember in the mid-80s, in the days before social media, there was one player who I heard regularly get called lazy, bone idle, slow and a lot worse.

His name was Sheedy.

Andy Crooks
50 Posted 13/04/2020 at 14:35:04
Good point, Darren @ 47. In my view James Vaughan was badly managed. He needed a run of games, like Calvert-Lewin. Instead, he went at his meagte opportunities like a madman. Injury was always just around the corner.

I went to the Milk Cup with my dad and Franny Jeffers was the best young player either of us seen.

Robert Tressell
51 Posted 13/04/2020 at 14:43:42
Kean is still one of the world's elite young talents. Of strikers in his age group and younger, only Haaland, Greenwood and Martinelli are ahead of him.

Haaland, an incredible player, is the only one scoring lots of goals. Boadu (Netherlands), Macias (Mexico) have scored a good number of goals (14 and 13 respectively) but in weak leagues. In stronger leagues, you then have Isak (Sociedad) and Vlahovic (Fiorentina) with 7 and 6 respectively. Some really promising young strikers, Pinamonti, Rafael Leao and Matheus Cunha have just 2 goals for the season in decent leagues.

My point is that goals are extremely hard to come by for young strikers. It took Calvert-Lewin a while. It might take Kean a while too.

Ray Roche
52 Posted 13/04/2020 at 15:06:05
Dave @48,

Like you Dave, I wasn't happy to lose Collins but Stevens became a favourite of mine as well. It's worth remembering that he won two League titles with us so he couldn't have been a mediocre player.

Tony Abrahams
53 Posted 13/04/2020 at 15:25:31
Good description of those two players, Darren. I remember Vaughan punching the turf, with blood spurting out of his ankle, which you could see from the stand behind the goal at Bolton.

He was in no fit state to carry on, and was punching the turf in frustration. Not like Pistone, at the same ground a few years before when he done his knee, because it looked like he was happy to get such a bad injury. Although that's a ludicrous thing to say, some players have genuinely also made me think this way over the years!

Terry White
54 Posted 13/04/2020 at 15:41:22
Ray (#52), one league title, 1962-63. And he was most definitely NOT a mediocre player.
Mike Gaynes
55 Posted 13/04/2020 at 16:32:38
Paul #49, superb comment. I never saw Sheeds play in person but he recounted in his autobiography the stick he sometimes took, and others here have recounted it as well.

Darren #38: "Not being good enough isn't a crime. Not working hard enough is"... absolutely spot on, and for that reason I hope you'll rethink lumping Sigurdsson in with Schneiderlin. There ain't a molecule of lazy in Gylfi, not one.

Dave #44, not saying you're wrong about Keane... I was not in favor of signing him (lobbied for Steve Cook instead)... but I gotta respect his courage. Playing an entire season on a festering foot (without a word) and then sticking his recently-fractured skull fearlessly into the cement mixer causes me to choke on criticising him too much. Not much of a footy brain, but he's got cojones the size of basketballs.

Sam #36/#39, great posts.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
56 Posted 13/04/2020 at 16:55:13
With regards to players coming through the ranks, for me there will always be two types.

1. Athletes who can kick a ball
2. Kids with a brain for football.

We have had a significant number in the first group who were the best thing since.. . . well you name them. But at that age they were streets ahead of their peers in terms of athleticism. Once they started playing against the big boys who were equally athletic then their shortcomings were exposed. The one that really sticks out in my mind for this was Michael Branch.

When you look at the second group, there is a much smaller pool and Rooney is a classic example but I also thought Jeffers fitted into that group as well. Problem was that one became a very good player and then moved away and had a very successful career, the other left too early and never fulfilled the potential he had.

Dave Abrahams
57 Posted 13/04/2020 at 17:02:28
Paul (49), if any fan watched Sheedy closely they surely would have noticed how often he closed opposition players down and jockeyed them into parting with the ball nearly always backwards. And when he got the ball and passed it invariably to one of his own players, that was without the free kicks and other great goals.

A gem of a player who we stole off Liverpool... nearly as good a bargain as Johnny Morrissey – that was the perfect robbery.

Ray Roche
58 Posted 13/04/2020 at 17:19:01
Terry @54,

Apologies, of course it was only one Title, he left mid sixties.

Terry, at no point do I refer to Stevens as being, in my book, mediocre. The people who booed him were the ones with the low opinion of him, not me.

Terry White
59 Posted 13/04/2020 at 18:10:43
Sorry, Ray (#58), if I gave the wrong impression, I was agreeing with your comment that Dennis Stevens was NOT a mediocre player, he was an integral part of that title-winning side and provided something that Bobby Collins perhaps could not do, however good a player Bobby was.
John Pierce
60 Posted 13/04/2020 at 18:11:03
There’s a bar we all have, the minimum we expect from players, whether they are 18 or 38, regardless of their nationality.

It’s a professional environment and as such for me if you’re picked for Everton that’s the standard I expect you to hit. I make little allowance for age, experience etc. because if you’ve been picked you have been deemed good enough.

I will, and have slaughtered players and managers alike who don’t make the grade, but I have also lauded those same players and managers when it’s gone right. I can genuinely say it’s not an agenda, it’s based on what I see!

Ray Roche
61 Posted 13/04/2020 at 18:20:51
No worries Terry 👍
Robert Tressell
62 Posted 13/04/2020 at 18:39:24
Phil - agree re Jeffers. Exceptional talent. Should have had many England caps and goals. He, like Michael Ball, came through at a really weird time when almost everything about Everton was completely demoralising.

He was also a bit of a knob and I can't help but feel he just chucked away a trophy-laden career by being a knob. Ball I feel sorry for because he was a class act who had a wrecked career from steroid injections in his knee.

Steve Carse
63 Posted 13/04/2020 at 19:29:11
Darren (47) my recollections of the crowd's take on the Jeffers-Campbell partnership was the opposite of what you recall. The signing of Campbell was itself met with intense criticism whilst the introduction of Jeffers into the side, on the other hand, was widely applauded. That both players developed an outstanding partnership led to both being taken in to the hearts of the supporters.

Jeffers of course quickly traded in that affection for a bigger wage packet whilst Campbell continued to give his all to score many an important goal but was unable to get back to his previous standards after a bad injury.

Campbell is still highly regarded amongst supporters, particularly those who recognise him and Jeffers as the two players most responsible for keeping Everton out of any last-day relegation battles in that era.

Filipe Torres
64 Posted 13/04/2020 at 20:11:27
I don't care about YouTube or what other people say, and I don't even look at stats. I'm an old-timer scout... ha ha.

Kean's touch is awful, but so was Lukaku's and that's the thing with strikers, we can only judge them by their last touch.

Problem with Kean is his jumping, I have never seen him win a header with confidence. He looks way too heavy to win aerial duels, he looks slow running with the ball, probably because of his poor technical ability. You can all try to convince me otherwise but... Nahh.

Verdict: Loan him to a premier team, if he doesn't cut it (which I think will happen), sell him.

Paul Tran
65 Posted 13/04/2020 at 20:50:02
Dave #57, you're dead right, but plenty of fans see what they want to see. Many like players who 'look busy' even though they don't do very much. Sheedy could look languid, but he covered and grafted like the rest of them – and he had that left foot. It was a great spot to nick him from 'them'!
Darren Hind
66 Posted 13/04/2020 at 21:37:07
I think Sheedy suffered on two fronts. Coming from Liverpool. He first of all had to win the trust of the Evertonian. I think he also suffered because people would compare him to the fella over the other side of the pitch.

"Tricky" often played slightly higher up the pitch and he would catch the eye because he would cover so much ground when tracking back. Sheedy was more measured. When our attacks broke down, his positioning was probably better than Stevens.

A thinker who let his brain do his running. I think even the philistines realised that in the end.

We were spoiled having Sheedy and Stevens in the same team. Two very different wide men. Both brilliant in their own right.

Paul Tran
67 Posted 13/04/2020 at 22:31:12
Yes, Darren, we'd kill for one player half as good as one of those two, wouldn't we?
Paul Jones
68 Posted 14/04/2020 at 04:57:11
With regard to Everton fans, my experience is that we can be very fickle at times.

I was at the game against Ipswich in the FA Cup (in The Enclosure) when Sheedy took a freekick scored and it was disallowed and had to retake then scored again. I remember when Ipswich then attacked down their right flank, Sheedy missed a tackle followed by comments of "Sheedy, get a tackle in, you cunt".

Mike #30, 4-year contract seems to also be a bad decision. Good deal for agent/player selling club not so good for Everton. For his age and that amount of money, expecting more than a punt on potential.

Derek Taylor
69 Posted 14/04/2020 at 14:05:49
Every time he comes on, I hope to see Moise Kean achieve something more than he has managed so far. Not just by way of goals but more overall contribution, the like of which I'm sure a number of last season's U23s were well capable of.

Of course few of Unsy's Babes are still in contention as one by one they have been written off without the untold Premier League cameos afforded to our Italian 'star' signing.

One suspects that a return whence he came would satisfy all parties.

Bob Parrington
70 Posted 16/04/2020 at 12:41:54
I'm on the 'keep Kean' side of things here on the basis that it is too soon to let go of a player who has many of the traits of a potentially great striker. Clearly, he needs some good coaching but most youngsters do (if not all!).

I disagree with those who suggest to send him out on loan and definitely wouldn't have him go back to Italy. 'Prep for heading' would be a first on the coaching aspect and 'calm down to improve first touch control' another. With his upper body, he should be difficult to knock off the ball and so teach him how to use his upper-body strength.

Tom Bowers
71 Posted 16/04/2020 at 12:53:34
I like Kean but, as a goalscorer, you have to score... and when opportunities arise, you have to take them.

Some may argue he hasn't yet had a run in the team but the question is always the same with many so-called strikers who have worn the ''blue'' over the years and yet failed at the task.

With the ''new'' gaffer and a team built to his specification, Kean may indeed prove worthwhile if he remains for a full season.

Dave Abrahams
72 Posted 16/04/2020 at 12:54:14
Bob (70), I'm with you on that score. As long as Moise is happy here, then I doubt if he could learn off a better coach than Ancelotti. I expected him to play a lot more minutes than he has up to now; hopefully he will in the future.

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