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Everton 'keeping tabs' on Valencia's Gomez

| Tuesday, 08 September 2020 77comments  |  Jump to last
Everton could be in the hunt for striker Maxi Gomez who could be allowed to leave Valencia before the transfer deadline as the Spanish club seek to raise funds.

The Telegraph claim that the Blues have made inquiries about the availability of the 24-year-old Uruguayan who scored 30 goals in 71 games for Celta Vigo before moving to Valencia last year in a £13m deal.

Last season, he struck 10 times in 33 games but, with his current club needing to sell players, he may be available. West Ham United are also credited with strong interest in Gomez who has been capped 17 times by his country.

Everton boss Carlo Ancelotti could target striking reinforcements now that he has added Allan and James Rodriguez to his side, with Abdoulaye Doucouré expected to be confirmed as the club's third major signing of the summer today.

Original Source: The Telegraph  


Reader Comments (77)

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Fran Mitchell
1 Posted 08/09/2020 at 06:45:57
I would very much expect any further signings to be dependent on sales.

I think we will manage to offload players.

Our available players I would assume will be on many clubs 'B lists'. They'll have main targets but, as they struggle to get them, then they start looking at alternatives. As panic sets in after the new season starts, and the closing of the window approaches, clubs start getting warmer to the idea that Walcott and Delph could just be the Premier League experience their squad needs, that Bolasie and Besic would offer great options from the bench.

Rob Baker
2 Posted 08/09/2020 at 07:05:45
Yes please. A new right-back and goalkeeper also.
Steve Shave
3 Posted 08/09/2020 at 07:06:51
I like him: strong, good in the air and can finish. Probably not what we need, especially if Kean goes somewhere... we need pace.
Derek Knox
4 Posted 08/09/2020 at 07:13:17
Fran@2, true, but I wouldn't be surprised if a the likes of Delph was to move to either Burnley or Leeds. I also have a feeling that Iwobi could be involved in some sort of deal, involving a swap, possibly Crystal Palace with Zaha coming in the opposite direction.

I can't help feel that Iwobi was a last-minute inclusion last window with appeasement of the fans, the motivator. I wasn't too upset initially when I heard he was coming, he had always appeared to be decent when I'd seen him play for Arsenal.

When I later found out the amount we had paid, I was aghast and shocked, but consoled myself temporarily by saying Brands must know he is a good addition although heftily priced.

The evidence since has proved that he has failed to impress, although played slightly out of his preferred position, his passing is awful (not alone in that department either) and does not appear to want to be involved.

Hopeful too, that some others may be moving on!

Gordon White
5 Posted 08/09/2020 at 08:50:08
Fran #2, you're looking at our players from our perspective.

I think the view from a lot of other clubs, outside the top 6 in the Premier League, would be different. They would be seen as Premier League experienced, affordable, reasonably good players in what has been an underperforming team. Or not being played to their strengths. Many of these clubs can't afford more than one or two names on their A list. It is a team game!

I personally think the likes of James and Allan will lift and inspire our other players. And introduce competition, belief and hunger again.

BTW, I would love to see Zaha join us too.


Fran Mitchell
6 Posted 08/09/2020 at 09:02:01
Gordon, that was more or less my point.

I think we'll sell them as they'll be seen as safe options for many PL clubs. None of.them will be first choices, but as season approaches and they lose out or are priced out of other targets, our deadwood will become attractive. That's why I don't think we've shifted any yet, but after the season starts clubs will move on to other targets.

West Ham, Newcastle, Villa and low to mid table teams will go for them.

Can't see Zaha tbh Derek. Now we have James, but he'd be a heck of an addition.

Dan Nulty
7 Posted 08/09/2020 at 09:05:23
We would need Brands to negotiate well here, Valencia have already sold one striker to Leeds so would be surprised to see them sell their top scorer cheaply.

I'm not sure about Zaha, unless we can part ex several players (Palace fans would go mental) I'm not sure he would be worth paying lots for given his performances last season. Have to be another 2 year deal with 3rd year option again for me.

I still think we need a new keeper as priority number 1.

Jim Harrison
8 Posted 08/09/2020 at 09:24:09
Can’t see Zaha being brought in. Where does he fit in? And for what he would cost.

I think/hope we will see an improvement in Iwobi when he is used. Same for Bernard.

Colin Glassar
9 Posted 08/09/2020 at 09:38:16
Derek 4, spot on. I’m a big Iwobi fan, as you know, but if he has to go, he has to go.

If we can use him in some sort of swap then so be it. We could use him in some sort of exchange like they used to do with the spies during the Cold War - send him through Checkpoint Charlie in exchange for someone.

I’d be gutted to see the back of him but if he needs to take a bullet for the team then I trust he will have the courage to do so. Goodbye Iwobi and hello to anyone else out there who can walk upright and kick a ball!

Sam Hoare
10 Posted 08/09/2020 at 09:45:59
I find the grief that Iwobi gets a bit weird. Yes we overpaid for him and yes he was poor last season but it was his first season at a new club under two different managers and being played out of his preferred position for most of it.

Despite that he still created the most chances in open play per minute and had the third most successful dribbles per minute (after Richie and Coleman). He had the highest passing percentage of any of our wide players and his defensive stats were ok too. Yes, he could have done with a few more goals but he wasn't much worse (or better) than any of our other wide players.

He's only 24 and may hopefully do alot better in his second season with us.

Derek Knox
11 Posted 08/09/2020 at 09:46:43
Aye Colin, that Checkpoint Charlie and his brother Proper, have a lot to answer for! :-)
Tony Everan
12 Posted 08/09/2020 at 10:10:15
Fran #1

I am thinking the same. Signings now will follow players being sold or moved on to get massive wages off the books. We will be looking at swap and player plus cash deals too, trying to kill two birds with one stone.

For instance Zaha or Ismail Sarr in exchange for Iwobi , Tosun or Bolaise and a cash adjustment . A good one would be the talented young right back Max Aarons coming in a player plus cash deal.

Brands couldn’t pull those type of deals off could he ? I am not totally discounting now another bit of great business.

When Doucoure signs, then we are in a very strong position. We will be an attractive proposition for any targets we have. Also we will not be in a desperate place to entertain any crazy fees or wage demands.

Dan Nulty
13 Posted 08/09/2020 at 10:25:33
I still have hopes for Iwobi too but he was terrible.

Not convinced Gomez is the answer. Nor Zaha. We really, really need to get a load of deadwood off the books.

Gordon White
14 Posted 08/09/2020 at 10:26:40
Fran 6 fair comment.
Tony Everan
15 Posted 08/09/2020 at 10:31:53
Sam #10, Iwobi

I under your sentiment with regards Iwobi. There have been some positives in his play and he has put some good crosses in that have deserved better treatment. He is young and still can make an impact.

What has concerned me about him is his tendency to stand off and wait for the game to come to him, doesn’t influence the game enough, he lacks a bit of bravery, he doesn’t get close enough when closing down. He doesn’t effect play enough and seems passive too much of the time. I get the impression he is in a football comfort zone bubble that he needs to break out of .

With our new midfield now his the time for him to put it all on the table. (If he is given the chance to and not sold back to a London club)

Gordon White
16 Posted 08/09/2020 at 10:37:40
Absolutely there needs to be lots of departures. And these are likely to happen towards the end of the window.
We definitely need an addition in the back line, (still not sure whats happening with Kenny?), and another striker, IMHO.
I like Zaha and half of me would love to see him at his best in a blue shirt. The other half worries that he would turn out to be another Gylfi.
Sam Hoare
17 Posted 08/09/2020 at 10:39:16
Tony, I don't disagree but I suspect those accusations could be levelled at most of our midfield and forwards.

I'm just surprised that Iwobi gets so much more grief than the likes of Bernard and Walcott. The former is supposedly on £50k per week whereas the latter are 4-6 years older and on £100-120k per week. I'd much rather exchange or shift Bernard or Walcott if we could.

At the moment I doubt anyone would offer us over £15-20m for Iwobi but if he had a better season and got some goals and assists (aided by a much more dynamic midfield) then he might closer reflect the staggering amount we decided to pay for him.

Brian Wilkinson
18 Posted 08/09/2020 at 10:58:17
I would prefer to go for Odsonne Edouard, with a part exchange thrown in to bring the price down.

If we get Edouard in, then for me it is just a matter of a right back and goal keeper and pretty much sorted throughout the team.

Frank Wade
19 Posted 08/09/2020 at 11:02:09
Sam #10, agree we should give Iwobi more time. I would like to see him take on players more, be more adventurous.

Surprised that Seamus Coleman was in top two for successful dribbles. Can't understand the push from some on TW for another right back. Criteria should be the defensive role as first concern. Most of his detractors point to poor crosses. Sidibe was better at crossing but defensive positioning was poor. Poor movement or lack of numbers in the box have been major contributors to a poor cross.

Tommy Carter
20 Posted 08/09/2020 at 11:22:21
@19 Frank

Let’s address a couple of points in your post.

Why not give Iwobi an opportunity at Right Back?

I expect Ancelotti to play with two deep midfielders. Probably Allan and one of Gomes/Davies/Delph.

Then with Doucoure in front.

I expect it to look like this:

Gomes Allan

Doucoure

Richarlison James

DCL

In that instance width will be offered from the full backs. I think Iwobi, much like Coleman at the same age, Iwobi has a lot of raw natural talent.

Moyes used the 2012/2013 season to finally transition Seamus to right back. It was a success and I think Iwobi has the attributes to make such a transition.

I also think that we have a coach capable of implementing it.

Dave Williams
21 Posted 08/09/2020 at 11:22:53
Iwobi has the ability but will never be a ball winner. Last season our ball winning and retention was awful. With the new boys in the team this should improve immeasurably. I do wonder at the effect this will have on Tom, Iwobi, Gomes and Gordon as they will be able to play to their strengths rather than trying to do stuff which does not come naturally.
The strikers will find that they are being played into space rather than having to forage for scraps, and the defence will find that there is a strong shield in front of them which will make it easier to track the runs of strikers because they will not be pulled out of position to tackle players who have broken through.
Some of our players are beyond repair and have to go but others may be reborn. I am very intrigued at Bolasie- he has looked well up for it in the training clips I have seen and in the two friendly games- strong, has his pace back and very aggressive.
We might start to see a few pieces falling into place.
Simon Harrison
22 Posted 08/09/2020 at 11:35:02
Maxi Gomez looks like he could be a good addition at that price; though I have seen lots of Llorente 'news' getting traction too..?

Personally, like Brian [18], I'd prefer Edouard from Celtic, but they are keeping the price tag at £40m for now, plus he wants to go to a UCL club.

Like may others on here, I don't think much more business will be done this window; unless the rumours surrounding;

Gylfi to DC United;
Walcott to Leeds or Soton;
Delph to Burnley or Leeds;
Tosun to WBA or Turkey clubs x3;
Ramirez to Eibar or one of the other five clubs looking at him;
plus Besic is being looked at by four clubs apparently.

If that lot go, then it does reduce the stockpile of deadwood substantially, and reduces the wage bill dramatically!

With Gibson earmarked for a loan to HTFC, and Tom Davies likely to go on loan too. Then that leaves us with the 'triff three, Gomes, Gordon, Iwobi, Bernard, Bolasie and the U23 options in MF. Apologies, if I missed anyone.

If we can add one or two or players more, I think we need a backup for Pickford first; see the difference in his play when he is with England and challenged by Pope etc; and a class RB/W option in this window.

Next summer, we see where we stand and then start pruning some more, and adding quality in the first team, and strengthen the bench options.

Charles Towers
23 Posted 08/09/2020 at 11:45:09
Dave @21 Bolasie's problem has always been his end product, not pace or will. His delivery under pressure is somewhat poor, he is very good on the counter, which suited him at Palace, because he has the time and space to deliver the ball properly,

I think he could be of some use at Spurs, with Richy and another pacy forward (Walcott). I know it looks weird but I would fancy our chances, with 3 pacy players upfront, against Spurs.
Sam Hoare
24 Posted 08/09/2020 at 11:53:32
Here are some of the main earners at Everton (not including new signings). If we could lose Bernard, Walcott, Siggurddson, Sandro, Delph, Bolasie and Tosun that would be around a collective £600k per week off the wage bill! Which is around Villa's entire first team squad wage bill I believe!

Brands will have his work shifting those lot. I'd be tempted to retain Delph as hes quite versatile and offers cover at left back if he can stay fit.

Bernard M 27 £120,000
Yerry Mina D 25 £120,000
Andre Gomes M 27 £112,212
Jordan Pickford GK 26 £100,000
Gylfi Sigurdsson M 30 £100,000
Theo Walcott F 31 £100,000
Richarlison de Andrade 23 £90,000
Lucas Digne D 27 £90,000
Fabian Delph M 30 £80,000
Yannick Bolasie F 31 £75,000
Seamus Coleman D 31 £70,000
Sandro Ramírez F 25 £65,000
Cenk Tosun F 29 £60,000
Moise Kean F 20 £53,173
Alex Iwobi F 24 £50,000
Muhamed Besic M 27 £30,000

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

25 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:01:41
Wow!

Did I seriously just read a poster proposing playing Iwobi at right back as he has 'all the attributes to make the transition'?

Anyone else see the obvious flaws in such a proposal?

Colin Glassar
26 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:02:13
Simon, it’s Marco Llorente we should be going after not the other older, slower one. Maxi Gomez would be very welcome as well.
Frank Wade
27 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:04:21
Tommy #20, interesting and possible, but probably needs time to learn the position as Seamus did at Blackpool. The importance of the defensive covering part of full back play is often overlooked. Matt Doherty has taken Coleman's place in the Ireland team. He is more used to playing as a wing back with Wolves and has been caught out of position in recent Ireland games, playing in a back four.

The former Leeds player Gary Kelly was a predecessor at right back on the Irish team. Kelly was on a pre season tour of Ireland with Leeds as an 18 year old 3rd choice right winger. Two right backs got injured and Kelly was handed a start at right back. Went on to make a successful long career as right back for Leeds and Ireland. So, never say never.

Tommy Carter
28 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:06:49
@ 24

Jay. I saw it, as I typed it. As it was I.

Tell me the flaws.

Colin Glassar
29 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:10:50
So some would consider a player who chickens out of 99.9% 50/50 balls. Who refuses to track back. Who has no tactical discipline whatsoever. Who doesn’t look bothered most of the time etc as a possible RB? This is one for Ripley’s, methinks.
Stuart Sharp
30 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:13:10
I would consider the inability to tackle or win headers a flaw for any defender. I'm not even that convinced by his passing.
Andy Crooks
31 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:13:59
Tommy, you are usually pretty astute but I genuinely believe that if I lost a bit of weight, well, okay, quite a bit of weight, I could do a better job at right back than Iwobi.
Having said that, I think he is a decent player in his right position but is a confidence player. In a good side he will excel
.
Charles Towers
32 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:14:20
Iwobi at right back? He is left footed, never established on the right wing, although played there a couple of times, has no positional sense, doesn't defend, doesn't make the long runs; even playing on the left, and he probably wouldn't want to play there. So yeah I can see the flaws.
Steve Brown
33 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:29:39
As a founder of the Bernard fan club (membership of one), can I respectfully point out that he came on a free transfer. Hence the high salary.

Walcott cost 29 million, Yerry 27 million, Gomes 22 million, Sigurdsson 45 million. Bernard can play in several positions and links play up with the full backs and forwards - not something that Walcott or Sigurdsson could do - so I would keep him.

Tommy Carter
34 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:35:10
@ Frank

Agree with some of your comments. However I do feel the stint at Blackpool for Seamus was as much for his first team development.

I believe Iwobi was bought mainly because of his ability to press high up the pitch and apply pressure and win the ball back early. Transferrable skills in my eyes

Philip Bunting
35 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:36:15
Steve...I am also a fan. With better players around him he will thrive. Confidence also a big thing with him I think. Hopefully Carlo can sort that.
Geoff Lambert
36 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:40:24
Don't forget we have moved a few on this year and the end of last year as well.


Morgan Schneiderlin
Maarten Stekelenburg
Kieran Dowell
Oumar Niasse
Luke Garbutt
Cuco Martina
Leighton Baines

Bet that is £300,000 per week in wages off the books.

Derek Knox
37 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:46:05
Steve@31, I think there a lot on here who actually like Bernard too, but the fact that he is on his arse more than a kid who is skating for the very first time, is a detracting factor. Even a good fart can see him tumble, with no contact having been made.

Can't see him fattening up at his age either, even with a wheelbarrow full of steroids, two Bullworkers, and a Life-long Membership of Charles Atlas's, ' Don't get sand kicked in your face again Course ' ! :-)

Tom Bowers
38 Posted 08/09/2020 at 12:46:32
This makes good sense, We are very weak up front and only Richarlison has real scoring prowess. If he gets crocked we are lost.

Much as I admire the drive and endeavor of DCL I don't think he is the answer except as a substitute when needed even to defend.

Walcott, Bernard, Kean and Tosun are just not consistent.
Watched Kean for Italy yesterday and although he started brightly looks a little slow and seemed like he can't play 90 minutes. Granted he was played out wide and seems to lack full match practice.

Dan Nulty
39 Posted 08/09/2020 at 13:03:19
I've seen it all now. There is no doubt that some of us watch completely different games. Iwobi at right back? I want what you've been taking.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

40 Posted 08/09/2020 at 13:07:38
Tommy, like others you have had an entire season watching Iwobi in the blue of Everton. If you need me or anyone else to point out the obvious flaws in your suggestion to converting him to a right back, then you are a poorer observer and student of the game than I thought you were.

Others have already listed the very, very obvious flaws to your suggestion:

* Iwobi cannot tackle, doesn't like a tackle. Period.
* He doesn't care for the physical side of the game at all.
* Defensively, he is tactically extremely naive. Unaware of the play and players around him. The opposition frequently take advantage of this.
* A successful defensive unit works in harmony as a well-drilled team. Iwobi is a 'freer spirit' than that. You are asking him to change his entire mentally and skill set.
* He makes a 'show' of backtracking and chasing back an opposition player that runs off him, but whilst the legs are pumping, the head and heart have no intention of getting close to his man.

Making the tenuous link to a younger Seamus Coleman as an 'example' to the transition you propose is not a like-for-like case.

Seamus was ALWAYS a full-back. Yes, he had a handful of games under Moyes in midfield ahead of Tony Hibbert, but his loan spell at Blackpool and his time at Everton have ALWAYS primarily been right back. His days as a Gaelic Footballer meant he has ALWAYS been as hard as nails, ready to go into any tackle. His entire development and career has been centred on defensive play.

Iwobi's development and career, by contrast, has ALWAYS been centred on primarily the advanced midfielder role. He is now 24. No manager with any inkling of the player's qualities would contemplate 'transitioning' Iwobi to a full back as you propose. That would largely negate his best qualities and totally expose the biggest flaws to his game. If it happened, he would be targetted by the opposition game after game, to our cost.

This is fantasy football at its most fanciful. Unless our manager adopts a 'you-score-four-we'll-score-more' policy (rather unlikely I fancy under the Italian Ancelotti...), your suggestion is as mind-boggling and radical a positional and tactical proposal for any Everton player I have ever read on TW.

I will add I haven't given up on Iwobi yet. In his natural position.

Now, you've got my reasoning and response (along with other posters). Right back at you Tommy.

Enlighten us as to Iwobi's qualities that support your suggestion.

Danny Baily
41 Posted 08/09/2020 at 13:15:21
Tommy, Iwobi can't tackle and has zero defensive awareness. And he can't jump or head the ball.

I honestly don't know what his best position is, but it's certainly never going to be full back.

Bernard Yeo
42 Posted 08/09/2020 at 13:27:13
What about Davies as a right-back? Seen him there a few times and reasonably acceptable.
Mike Corcoran
43 Posted 08/09/2020 at 13:29:58
Back to Gomez, would love him to sign, tough some would say dirty bastard who can finish from all angles and positions himself well in the final third. He’s a little bit Suarez and Costa with a sprinkling of Aubameyang. 40 goals in 104 games in La Liga. No comparison with the lightweight Sandro. Available for buttons too
Mike Gaynes
44 Posted 08/09/2020 at 15:13:13
Charles #31, Iwobi is right-footed.

Sam, Tony and Frank, I'm with you on Iwobi... he was mostly crap last year but there's a good player in there somewhere, and, with Carlo coaching him and surrounded by excellence, he might turn into something. Certainly worth keeping based on his youth and (comparatively) reasonable salary, and the fact that we can't get our investment back on him right now. Any sale would be at a loss.

Tom #37, you should have stayed to the end. Kean absolutely scorched the Dutch backline for a clean break in on goal. He missed, but there was no missing that burst of pace. Definitely not fully game fit, as you correctly point out, but he ain't slow. At all.

Steve Ferns
45 Posted 08/09/2020 at 15:15:09
Mike, whilst I agree it’s premature to write Iwobi off, I’d certainly sell him if we got anything like what we paid for him.
Jack Convery
46 Posted 08/09/2020 at 15:20:15
If he brings Morticia with him I'm all for it - The TV Morticia that is !

Did anyone see Kean play for Italy ? Report please.

Sam Hoare
47 Posted 08/09/2020 at 15:22:02
A few links coming up this afternoon saying a loan deal with Tomori is quite close. Think that would be good business, especially with Holgate injured.

Would prefer someone permanent (and don't think they'll include a purchase option) but obviously we have concentrated on midfield and bringing in some pace at the back gives us some time to get a good CB next summer (Fofana at St Ettienne looks very good to me- the new Gabriel!).

Jack Convery
48 Posted 08/09/2020 at 15:26:22
If he brings Morticia with him I'm all for it - The TV Morticia that is !

Did anyone see Kean play for Italy ? Report please.

Abdoulaye Doucouré is a new Everton player, here-we-go confirmed. Total agreement reached with Watford and paperworks signed. The club is already preparing the official announcement. After Allan and James it’s time for @abdoudoucoure16. 🔵🤝 #EFC #transfers

Mike Gaynes
49 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:10:48
I did, Jack. Came on as a sub in the first half. Looked good, certainly not out of place. Good movement and some nice passes. Burned the Dutch backline for a 90th-minute breakaway, rounded the keeper but missed the net.
Robert Tressell
50 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:19:59
Doubt we'd genuinely be in for Gomez. He's probably too similar to Calvert-Lewin to warrant the move. Llorente I could see as an experienced back-up if Tosun gets sold. But we don't really need an extra striker. Not as a particular priority anyway.

On Iwobi, he's a decent, versatile player who should bed in better with a less dysfunctional midfield around him. Horrible first season for him, Kean and Gbamin. He'll be better this season.

Si Cooper
51 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:51:26
Iwobi has the physique, power and pace to be more than useful. Needs to show more heart and nouse.

Another for the ‘wait and see but not for too long' group?

Kieran Kinsella
52 Posted 08/09/2020 at 16:59:44
No more people called Gomez who played for Valencia thanks very much.
Stephen Vincent
53 Posted 08/09/2020 at 17:12:25
Think we should keep what is left of our powder dry. Assuming Doucouré arrives we have quite a bit to bed in and the January window is only 3 and a bit months away.

The new guys may bring out the best in the rest of them. We need to bear in mind that Delph, Sigurdsson and most of the others have been damn good players in their time.

From what I've seen in the limited pre-season there maybe a spark left in Bolasie. We have no idea if Gbamin has a future at all. Tosun may prove to be an adequate sub. Kean needs a good run out before we judge, there must be something showing on the training pitch if he is getting a run out for Italy.

Holgate started life as a right-back and no one really knows how much a season with Shalke has brought Kenny on.

Just saying lots of options to ponder and a chance to fine tune in January. Let's stick, if the opportunity to sell at a decent price comes along then go for it.

With the relaxation of FFP the pressure to balance the books is off a little. Still needs doing but not as urgently.

Ben Howard
54 Posted 08/09/2020 at 18:19:45
I propose we try Pickford at right-back :-)
Frank Wade
55 Posted 08/09/2020 at 19:01:37
I saw some of the Italy game last night. I was most impressed by the fact that Roberto Mancini is the Italian manager and has faith in Moise Kean, so he must be a lot better than he has shown with us this far.
Tommy Carter
56 Posted 08/09/2020 at 19:32:33
Jay. Fair enough, you don't like the player but bravery in the game is more nuanced than you seem to know. Steaming into tackles doesn't make you brave or hard as nails.

Yes, he might not be the most aggressive player I've ever seen. But neither are a lot of fine defenders.

This tackling stuff you're going on about. The best defenders don't need to tackle as often as you'd think. Case in point: Virgil van Dijk. Played every game last season. Made 23 tackles throughout the whole season. Won only half of them. Kept 15 clean sheets. Blocked just 5 shots all season.

I think you are doing a huge disservice to a professional and his ability to be given new and alternative instructions and be coached into performing them to the required standard.

What you may have seen as defensively deficient last season may have been because he was instructed as such.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

57 Posted 08/09/2020 at 20:04:16
Tommy. Pay attention.

Never once in Iwobi's time at Everton have I said I don't like the player, as you falsely attribute to me. In this very thread, I categorically say I haven't given up on the player (as others evidently have), but only in his default position for which he was signed and the one his entire career and development prepared him for.

Never, ever, will Iwobi be a Premier League quality full-back as you propose.

'Bravery in the game is more nuanced than you seem to know..?'

Ehrm... Tommy. I made no allusions to 'bravery'. That is something you have invented rather than directly answer the challenge put to you that you totally evade:

'Enlighten us as to Iwobi's qualities that support your suggestion (that he could play right-back).

It was actual defensive skill sets and tactical capability I clearly listed that Iwobi lacks. Not his mental application in something as abstract as 'bravery'.

'Bravery' comes in many forms. Yes, it could refer to physical resilience. Equally, it could refer to having the courage to try a more challenging forward pass that gives your team an opportunity to score.

It could also refer to having the bravery and honesty to own up that perhaps your suggestion – challenged by many, not just me – is an ill-founded one, rather than resort to bluff, bluster and avoidance as you have.

Still waiting for you to share actual attributes you believe Iwobi possesses that will serve him – and more importantly, the team – well in your suggestion that he transitions to full-back.

Tommy Carter
58 Posted 08/09/2020 at 20:46:11
Jay you’re being pedantic.

For the term bravery I was addressing your point about him not caring for the physical side of the game. I disagree with this for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

You did mention tackling. Which I’ve addressed.

Attributes I think would serve him well are his ability to carry the ball forward. Seamus was excellent at this also. He’s got good stamina and sufficient pace to be able to cover a lot of ground on the flank. Physically I think he has enough strength to cope with the role. I disagree about your earlier comments about his work rate, he covers a lot of ground in a game. He could be more intelligent and decisive in his closing down but my own assessment would be that he has been trained to press space around players rather than win the ball.

Tactically I think we’ve seen him struggle with trying to combine a creative role with a defensive one. I personally think he’d benefit from having the burden of trying to create chances taken away from him.

Colin Glassar
59 Posted 08/09/2020 at 21:01:01
Jay Wood, I’m with you 100% on this. Iwobi, IMO, is an awful player who should never put on an Everton shirt ever again.

As for Iwobi “covering a lot of ground” it’s usually him running away from the opposition! Get rid and get rid now.

Jack Convery
60 Posted 08/09/2020 at 21:10:30
Mike ta for the update re- Kean. Any news on Morticia ?
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

61 Posted 08/09/2020 at 21:41:12
No Tommy. I'm not being pedantic.

You asked me to list the flaws in Iwobi's game as to why he would never make a PL full-back. I did so. Very categorically. I wasn't the only poster to do so.

I invited you to list the attributes you saw in Iwobi to justify your suggestion he could transition to a PL full-back. You offered none.

You now justify your use of 'bravery' in relation to my opinion that he doesn't care for the physical side of the game. They are not the same thing, Tommy.

Yes, you did 'address' tackling, but in reference to other players who don't even play for Everton and some vague generalism. You did not 'address' the question specifically to Iwobi who, if played at full-back as you propose, would need to engage at close quarters phsyically and actually tackle people. Give me examples that he is capable of that. Because if as a full-back he can't do the 'day job' - defend - then no matter what other qualities he possesses, it will prove a futile exercise.

The only attributes you (finally) offer is his ability to carry the ball forward. If that is from deep from his full-back position, that exposes him to be picked off with even more players in front of him before he can get into more threatening positions in the opposition's half.

Put aside reference and comparison to Seamus Coleman. He is totally irrelevant to your proposal. Different player. Different schooling. Different times.

As for your claims about having good stamina, are you sure about that? Because he very rarely completes 90 minutes. And racing up and down the full length of the pitch as he would need to do from full-back is arguably more demanding than covering just half the pitch as he generally does now.

Oh! I made absolutely zero comment about his work rate. Another invention you falsely attribute to me in making...well, no point at all really.

And your conclusion and final justification in playing him at full-back?

'Tactically he struggles with trying to combine a creative role with a defensive one. I personally think he’d benefit from having the burden of trying to create chances taken away from him.'

I will repeat an earlier question I put to you. Why switch him to full-back which negates his best qualities (which you yourself acknowledge), thus exposing his weakest qualities which he would definitely need to radically improve very rapidly to be just minimally competent in the position?

You've offered no case whatsoever to justify your proposal Tommy. None.

Steve Ferns
62 Posted 08/09/2020 at 22:10:14
Iwobi as a fullback? Someone was hitting the champagne hard last night. Only full back position I’d play him in is left back. as in left back in the changing room! Oldies are the best.

Iwobi has zero chance of a successful conversion to an elite fullback. I don’t know why fans think they can see something managers can’t. All stems from madcap Martinez and his belief that Baines could do a lahm, when I think lahm’s conversion wasn’t a success. Knock the idea on the head and either trust in Kenny or sign a new right back.

Tommy Carter
63 Posted 08/09/2020 at 22:16:29
Jay. Thoroughly pedantic.

I believe he could be successfully converted to a full back.

My opinion and I’m entitled to it.

Drew O’Neall
64 Posted 08/09/2020 at 22:38:13
Tommy, the idea that Iwobi could transition to fullback is absurd.

I do however support the idea that professional footballers shouldn’t be swapped and discarded so readily and quickly as they are, especially by Everton.

There are plenty of players in our squad with the correct physical attributes to play in the Premier League. We have brought in plenty of players over the years who are specialists in certain positions but whom just can’t make the grade physically in England’s top division and who’s to say that our latest import James Rodriguez or any of the otherwise proposed overseas targets could either; remember Klassen, Linderoth and Bilyaletdinov to name a few.

For what it’s worth I am a firm believer that centre midfielders of the traditional ‘type’ IE number ‘6’ and number ‘8’s’ can be transitioned to fall back on their preferred side. For example when James McCarthy was fit but not selected I think he would have made a serviceable substitute right fullback, if he had been open-minded to the proposition.

Similarly, Fabien Delph has been deployed there recently, Steven Gerrard spent some of the beginning of his career in the right fullback berth and Phil Neville made the transition in the opposite direction as, more famously, did Philip Lahm at Bayern.

The other thing which never ceases to amaze me is some posters’ myopic analysis of players’ strengths and weaknesses. Derek points out Iwobi’s inability to pass, for example.

Iwobi’s passing, and in particular his eye for a final ball, and the ability and bravery to play it while running between the lines with the ball at his feet, is his saving grace and apparently (based on my observation of our squad) an extremely rare commodity in attacking players and another reason he would be completely wasted at fullback.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

65 Posted 08/09/2020 at 22:51:38
No again Tommy. Not pedantic. Just very thorough in explaining my position (shared by many others who you fail to address) and exposing the frailty of your own.

And no one is denying your right to an opinion. Just challenging it. In exactly the same way you have challenged the opinions of others in this very thread when you disagree with them.

My opinion remains unmoved from my original response to you: your suggestion of 'transitioning' Iwobi from an attacking midfield with the skill sets he has been primarily schooled in throughout his entire football career to a full-back which demands pretty much the diametrically opposite to what he 'knows' is as mind-boggling and radical a positional and tactical proposal for any Everton player I have ever read on TW.

Tommy Carter
66 Posted 09/09/2020 at 06:47:38
It's not that absurd Jay. It has happened before.

Kevin Phillips started his career in non-league football as a right back. About a decade later he was the top goal scorer in the Premier League.

Alan a Smith was bought as a striker by Man Utd and was transitioned to a defensive midfield player by arguably the greatest manager in the history of the game just over a year later. A horrendous injury prevented everyone from seeing how that would've developed.

Antonio Valencia transitioned more recently from a winger at Wigan, then signed as such for Man Utd Before being transitioned to right back with success.

Gareth Bale and Gareth Barry both started out as left-backs before becoming International midfield and forward players respectively.

Victor Moses another.

Ruud Gullit I watched as an elegant and creative forward player, came to England and played sweeper.

Just some examples of not so subtle positional changes. Quite radical in most instances. All at the top level. Quite a few of them after 100s of top flight games played in their ‘original' positions.

In hindsight it's easy to say that they had the qualities to have played there. So that's an assessment to stay clear of. Because, had this been so obvious then surely they'd have started out in these positions, as with the exception of Gullit and possibly Smith, they had their greatest career successes in their ‘adopted' positions.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

67 Posted 09/09/2020 at 11:48:01
Deary me Tommy.

Talk about clutching at straws.

Of course there are examples of players who transition to different positions for various reasons. Doing so in their junior years. As a result of injury or ageing.

Another poster in this thread referenced Gary Kelly of Leeds who was a winger, but by default became a full back. At 18.

Kevin Phillips had a couple of games as a junior in non-league football at full back at 18 before an injury crisis meant his manager tried him up front and he banged in a couple of goals. The rest, as they say, is history.

Alan Smith was never the same player after a serious leg break v Liverpool and Ferguson tried him in midfield. He was 'ok's but not of sufficient quality for United and was sold to Newcastle.

To Valencia you could add Ashley Young. Both made the transition to wing/full back successfully because as well as having good technical skill and stamina for the role, both have the necessary aggression in buckets for a defensive role that Iwobi simply doesn't display.

Gareth Bale and Gareth Barry are very poor examples to use as players who transitioned from full back to midfield. Again, their skill sets demanded that should be the case and that's where they played the overwhelming part of their careers.

Ruud Gullit did not play strictly or only as a sweeper at Chelsea. A player of his ability could influence the game wherever he played.

Your examples only serve to highlight the obvious flaw in your suggestion of converting Iwobi to a full back. He seriously lacks some core skills to give your suggestion even the remotest chance of success.

He is now 24. Schooled in his entire football career to be an attacking, creative midfielder.

How much time and energy, how many of the training staff do you propose should be dedicated to converting Iwobi to a full back? When should he be given the opportunity to play for the first team in said role? How many games should he be given to trial at full back before it could be considered a success or failure?

Your 'hunch' carries all these implications. Why invest so much time and energy on attempting what you propose when the player in question lacks so many basic skill sets, tactical awareness and required mentality for the position?

A better investment of time and energy (and money) would be to improve the players at the club already schooled and honed for the position, or simply go out and buy an oven ready right full back.

Once again, you fail to make any sort of case to support your proposal.

Tommy Carter
68 Posted 09/09/2020 at 12:55:13
Jay you’re just re-writing history now to try and make a point.

Alan Smith was used primarily as a Central Midfield player in the 2005/2006 season prior to his injury. In essence he was a replacement for Roy Keane in that position. Quite a radical change for that player who’d only played a striker up until that point.

‘Their skill sets demanded’. As I stated, 100s of games in most instances before these skill sets demanded the change. Why did so many managers fail to spot such demand?

I base my opinion on the fact that such radical positional changes were made, and to success in most instances.

Again. My opinion. Many disagree. We will probably never know.

Andrew Ellams
69 Posted 09/09/2020 at 13:09:28
Tommy you're right about Smith and his tenacious style worked in his favour in midfield. I actually went to a game at MK Dons a few years later when he and Didi Hamman were the teams engine room and it was not the most energetic pairing I've ever seen by then.

But Iwobi doesn't have the discipline to play full back, he's too much of headless chicken.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

70 Posted 09/09/2020 at 13:13:11
Tommy, you go ahead and produce the definitive encyclopedic work on all the players in the history of the world game who have 'transitioned' from one position to another.

It is a smokescreen. A distraction. That is not the debate here. The debate is very, very specific:

Can Iwobi be transitioned from an attacking midfielder to a right full back at Everton, fit for purpose for PL football to make the position his own?

You continue to defend your whimsical notion that he can without making any sort of case that he has the core skill sets to make this a smooth, easy and rapid transition that can benefit Everton FC and the player himself in the here and now of this and future seasons.

The final sentence in your last post is probably the one thing in all your posts in this thread you have got right:

'We will probably never know' [if Iwobi could make the transition].

I take that as an admission that the Everton management and the player himself would not be as whimsical as you in even considering the possibility.

Robert Tressell
71 Posted 09/09/2020 at 13:33:03
I personally see Iwobi as left wing / midfield drifting into that number 10 slot.

He's diligent. There was a good article when he joined about how effective he was at covering the full-back during his time at Arsenal. He's also a decent crosser and, when he's confident, he's looking to play that forward ball too. I saw a few cameos where he was about the only player quick enough to spot Kean's clever movement.

Obviously can't go nuts about him on the evidence of last season. He gave away possession too much, went missing too much and it was often hard to see what his role was. But that is true of basically our entire midfield. A more confident Iwobi with better players around him will look fine, and have the odd stand out game too, I expect. I think he'll end up playing about 75 games for us, along these lines but never quite cementing himself in the first team, before being sold to West Ham or Fulham with a year left on his contract.

Could he be a right back? Maybe in an emergency but probably not for good. If we upgrade Coleman / kenny it's probably going to be a ready made replacement.

Tommy Carter
72 Posted 09/09/2020 at 15:35:42
@ 70 Jay. You cannot discuss right and wrong when it comes to opinion. I haven’t got anything ‘wrong’. The only person incorrect about anything is you saying Alan Smith was moved to central midfield as the result of his injury. This was just not true. Incorrect. Wrong.

I haven’t suggested it will be easy, smooth or rapid.

Before giving up on him and letting his lengthy contract fizzle out, or selling him at a massive loss. I believe we could attempt to transition him to a right back. My opinion is that this would be an option worth exploring.

My opinion. Neither right nor wrong.

Carl Manning
73 Posted 09/09/2020 at 22:34:18
I was genuinely happy when I saw the news we signed Iwobi, I thought a young, hungry international who would love the chance to be a big player in a team going places he looked a good player at Arsenal when other players made space for him and showed for the ball. There's a good player in there! Maybe our new quality brings it out.
Martin Berry
74 Posted 11/09/2020 at 14:09:50
Would love Gomez we should click our fingers for this one ! come and join the Ancelotti Family
Moving on to Iwobi, if Carlo cant get a tune out of him then no one will. It seems as though he has alot going for him but what is his best position ? also he needs to make better decisions on the pitch.. This season will be defining for him with the impressive squad additions around him there can be little excuse.. If he fails to spark then I can see him being moved out next season.
Personally I still believe he could be a really exciting player for us and still only 24.
Mike Corcoran
75 Posted 12/09/2020 at 01:20:14
Tommy you forgot to mention Emlyn Hughes and Phil Thompson from centre mid to centre defence but, no, Iwobi’s only transition, on form, might be to some other club. However I hope we will see round pegs played in round holes this season.
Patrick McFarlane
76 Posted 12/09/2020 at 01:23:38
Mike #75,

If you had mentioned Ray Kennedy's transition from forward to midfielder, I could have lived with it – but those two names, on here on the eve of a new season!!!!!!!

Mike Corcoran
77 Posted 12/09/2020 at 14:24:47
Sorry Pat, feckin hated them in equal measure, pair of smug twats.

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