Onana gets first World Cup start in Belgium defeat

I know a lot may disagree, but I always thought Klaassen got a rough deal. Different players, but in a parallel comparison with Iwobi, we never really gave him time or a chance. At least with the latter, whether through choice or necessity, we did.

I always think he was a victim of "that" shopping window when Owner, Chairman, DoF and Manager were about as joined up as I would imagine a coalition of Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn.

Like many Everton players, whether we've bought them or brought them up from Finch Farm, they walk into a disfunctional club and must wonder what they have signed up for.

They say shit rolls downhill. The players are the first in the firing line. The manager is usually the next to get it in the neck. Meanwhile, those allegedly setting the strategy (strategic review) and plans, remain constant and largely unchallenged by the passive masses.

I'm trying to focus on the World Cup, but the mention of Klaassen triggered me. He was never given time in my opinion. Done well at Ajax before us, done well at Werder Bremen after us, back at Ajax and now putting in a decent shift in the World Cup.

I'm not surprised it didn't work out.

And the Number 8 for Costa Rica: Bryan Oviedo!

I'd really love to see Everton play a style of football that even Brighton have adopted, pass and move, play through the middle of the park every now and again, and try a different way of attacking rather than soley down the flank.

It got me thinking and I realised that probably in the last 25 years I've only seen Everton play through the middle in one or two spells when Moyes was here and we had Arteta and company, the only other time was under Martinez when we had Barkley.

As you say, given time maybe Klaassen would have been half decent.

Just a thought.

Happy to be corrected, but I don't believe we had a big number 9 in 2017. Calvert-Lewin was still developing, so that style of play wasn't going to work for a player like Klaassen. Not his thing as he plays through the middle and the lines. Also, he's not a winger. There was little, if anything, to aim for other than a Rooney. Who's legs had gone.

Even now, we're playing with wide players who cut in from their opposite side (foot) to get the shot in, rather than hit the touchline and whip one in for the non-existent big number 9 of yesteryear.

Manchester City effectively won the league last season without a recognised striker. Now they have the best in the world. Liverpool has achieved success without a number 9 in recent years.

Make history, don't dwell on the past. It's a different game.

All 3 teams going into the last Group match on 3 points in that scenario.

Failing that, a point could do the Germans today. Beat Costa Rica and expect Spain to do a job on Japan.

The most interesting Group.

Be some group finish if Germany wins today.

Pickford

Digne

Stones

Coady

Antonee Robinson

Onana

Gueye

Davy Klaasen

Bryan Oviedo

Enner Valencia

Lukaku

The knives come out at the first downturn here Frank is the latest in a long line getting the treatment. Our fan neurosis is unparalleled. People are still blaming Martinez now

Its a wonder Mirallas is still not in this squad , he's only 35!

Boom 2-0

Goodnight, GodBless Mick, Rest in Peace, a good footballer but most of all a fine gentleman.

He is a really poor manager.

Belgium are the new Holland. Great individuals, can't play as a team.

Martinez. No thank you for those who suggested taking him back.

Telling the team to calm down on 90 minutes as they pass across the back line?

Belgium are what they always are, a team full of individuals rather than team players and once again at another major tournament they are failing.

The Belgium Team, looked like they were feeling sorry for themselves, the whole match, and now they're in last chance saloon.

The tournament is the most open, I can recall.

Looking forward to the Spain v Germany match, hopefully it will be a good game.

I would go as far to say that Spain will get a backlash from Germany. When they know what they have to do, they generally get the job done and I don't see tika taka working against them tonight even though I hope it does.

Bayern have smashed Barca the last few times they have met and I think the German mentality and game plan will win this.

Really interesting group this one with Costa Rica winning.

We have been absolutely horrendous since he left, and Martinez had a limited budget to spend compared to the following managers.

It doesn't mean I want him back as Everton manager, wouldn't be a good idea no.

But the football under him yielded goals and lots of them, even with the tippy tap shite in the second season of 2014/15, by Christmas time we had still scored 27 goals, compared that to this seasons 11.

We couldn't defend because we had Tim Howard in goal who was in rapid decline and John Stones pissing about too much.

Oh, for fuck's sake!

The Belgian centre-backs and Witsel are well past their best, Eden Hazard is a shadow of himself and Batshuayi is a not very good centre-forward.

Mind you, I couldn't understand why Martinez didn't play Doku, De Ketalaere and Trossard. They're crying out for more pace, movement and class up front.

As for Martinez, he gave me the very best football I've ever seen Everton play. However, unless he knows where to find a new Lukaku, Deulofeu and Barkley on the cheap, I'm not interested in having him back.

He also gave us the worst football I have ever seen at Everton.

He was determined to eliminate everything that Moyes had built up and made us a laughing stock defensively with his “We don't practice corners and free kicks because you don't score from them.”

Well, I think Morocco just demonstrated that you actually do.

We would definitely have been relegated if he had stayed. Maybe Kenwright wants him back so he can finish the job and he can buy the club on the cheap from Moshiri.

Inspiring the mind for when Everton get back to the Premier League. Here's to hoping.

Every group, bar the French going through, is going to the wire.

But seriously, worst football?

That's an extremely competitive accolade with Walker, Smith, Allardyce, Silva, Koeman, Benitez and even Royle, Ancelloti, Moyes and Lampard in with a shout too.

All have served up utter dross that sucks the very soul out of you.

Leo's performance has been flagging a bit, but no worries, Miami's manager will coach him up to peak again.

Pip Neville.

I was one of those who said I wouldn't watch it but here I am enjoying football without the pressure of wanting a certain team to win.

Canada were getting a bit overwhelmed because they lost their shape but they have some real fast and skillful players. Always in with a chance when you have pace and skill up front.

"There's this whole perception that scoring from set pieces is almost cheating. You know, like it's not part of the beautiful game. Roberto Martinez just didn't practice set pieces. He wanted to know everything about open play: synchronization between players, how to create space through intricate movements. But if you looked at a set piece, there was no interest. This still kind of plagues soccer, from top to bottom."

Martinez should have taken that as a life lesson.

Such a small detail, but something that can be absolutely priceless if it turns a poor corner into a goal.

The Martinez hate goes back to him being the antithesis of Moyes. When he created a challenging team from loanees and 2 players Moyes didn't trust, it killed Moyes disciples as the holy writ of excuses was ripped up before their very eyes.

In fairness, they bided their time and when injuries came and money issues meant the squad couldn't be effectively replenished with results going south they piled in. Excuses were okay for Davey but no-one else.

Their finest hour came when they dismissed Martinez's first season as a fluke based on some bullshit about the effectiveness of the Moyes defence. It was as though the much-maligned Kone and Wigan ripping them apart at Goodison Park hadn't happened.

Not having the money to adequately replace the Moyes's contingent with equivalent or better was the real issue.

Link

So is this a good time to write off a German team with the name Muller within its ranks?... Na.

The bookies must think Christmas has come early this year, I'd have lost a fortune if I was betting on results so far.

A double over Man Utd lso (probably as Moyes was their manager though). My favourite was the home match v Arsenal with Lukaku running riot.

Being by far the highest points total in our Premier League existence, I didn't want to rub salt in the wound. The cult of "kill Martinez" tip right over the edge at the mere mention. The brass neck of Martinez re-awakening ambition – how very dare he!!!

Canada and USA have shown they can play a bit and cannot be taken lightly anymore.

However, it is on defense where the top teams excel and eventually there will be no surprises in the final four.

Belgium made some poor choices in their squad picking some over-the-hill players especially on defense and got away with it against Canada but not today.

There are not many left from the first team I watched v Aston Villa on 13th October 1962. Only John Morrissey, I think. Looking at the eleven which played that day it was comprised of strong characters like Vernon, Gabriel, Labone, Stevens, Morrissey and Bingham. Mick Meagan may have been one of the quiet, unassuming ones but he never lacked determination on the pitch.

For the ensuing thirty years I appreciated footballers who played forwards, with flair way beyond the norm, allied to an ability to regularly pass and shoot with accuracy, together with an ability to tackle fairly in a no-quarter-given fashion. I called it football.

Sadly so much of all that is now deemed unfashionable if not illegal. Nowadays we have to endure whole games where shots on target are regularly less than the fingers on one hand, where cards are issued after microscopic analysis of endless replays, where "possession" is dominant to flair, enterprise, imagination and heart. They call it soccer.

I said that I could see Croatia coming good. Very talented team. And very consistently over the years since independence for a nation state with a population smaller than Scotland and about the same size as Wales. But they keep producing quality players and teams.

Germany could well end up doing a Germany. Beat Costa Rica and Spain beat Japan, they're through. It's what they do in tournaments. Then crank it up in the knockout phase. That said, they're still a shadow of their former selves of recent years.

Musiala, at 19 years old, is some player. To think he spent most of his childhood growing up in south West London and could have chosen to represent England. I think there was a shout for Nigeria and Poland too.

A shame he suffered that horrific injury as he could well have still been playing for the Blues and I think he might have been a good fit for Lampard's plans.

Hypothetical thought, Mykolenko on the left of a back 3 with Oviedo as the left-wingback.

That might have worked.

Bryan Oviedo sends touching Everton message after Costa Rica World Cup win

After just failing to land the cigar in his first season. He rightly identified that we needed half a dozen players to take the next step... He then promptly fucked off to moonlight as a world cup pundit at the very time he needed to be here enticing them. I still remember his surprise when our none existent "recruitment department" hadn't managed to get him the players he wanted. Cheeky bastard.

After a season of adventure and flair, he realised he was in the cushiest job in football. A lucrative number where expectation had long since been managed by his predecessor. Creativity gave way to possession obsession. Everton were back playing football in their own half. Playing where we couldn't hurt the opposition.

He took the piss by regularly telling Evertonians that their eyes were deceiving them. That we had not been as shite as they thought.

Sin Miedo? Bollocks. Ironically it was his fear of losing the cushiest job in footy which eventually cost him it... A trend which has continued among Everton managers ever since.

If there is any hatred I would expect it be from the Belgian fans at their FA or equivalent for trusting their hopes and dreams to a man whose tactical naïveté and inflexibility was obvious for all to see.

I expect him back in the Goodson dugout by February.

His first season was a team built on Moyes's well-drilled defence and he was lucky that Lukaku and Chelsea were looking at other options away from West Brom to continue his learning curve.But, once he had to organise a team, he was clueless and we became obsessed with possession without any penetration.

As Darren says in his post, Martinez sacked himself. Who joins a new club as manager then does a deal to swan off to be a pundit on TV for the World Cup? But we shouldn't have been surprised – it was just Martinez promoting himself.

The legacy from Moyes was solid, dependable and professional, he overachieved for a sustained period of time, it wasn't enough for those who continue to expect it to be the 1980s but he did a great job in my opinion with limited tools at his disposal.

Roberto built on that defensive solidity and got us playing the best football some of us have seen from Everton, unweighed down by the expectations from the past it was a pleasant surprise to me to see how well we performed and how close we pushed the top 4 in that first season.

The wheels came off after that, his managerial frailties became exposed, I suspect Lukaku was a moody influence (pure conjecture on my part with no basis other than a hunch) and multiple other factors we'll never be aware of, led to his demise.

Bobby seems like a nice guy, I bear no ill-feeling towards him but he is also not the answer. Too much of a risk. In truth, I don't know what the answer is for us, if only we knew what the problem was... Don, any thoughts? ;)

Actually, I thought Onana was okay but was too inexperienced to play with De Bruyne, who did not have the options round him he normally has when playing in the Premier League.

Just because you've spotted the Emperor hasn't got any clothes isn't hating it's just noticing that he wouldn't practise defending or scoring from set pieces. it's calling a spade a spade rather than an industrial or agricultural implement that is used by bipeds.

Moyes with his dour inferiority complex, feeding Bill's ego and playing down our chances at every opportunity.

Martinez with his "phenomenal" bullshitting and clueless tactical nous.

Both I fear would come back in a heartbeat; both I fear would set us back decades as neither have progressed as managers.

He didn't do himself any favours either though I'm all for bigging up your players, but describing Tom Cleverley as the "most sensational midfielder of his generation" didn't help him a great deal. That was an example of the "phenomenal" bullshitting that Dave Lynch mentions in the previous post.

"He rightly identified that we needed half a dozen players to take the next step... He then promptly fucked off to moonlight as a world cup pundit at the very time he needed to be here enticing them."

We've never got 6 of the requisite standard in one go at any time in our history even with Mosh on board and various DOFs it didn't happen. How on earth was Martinez expected to do so with 5 quid and a bag of crisps????

Not one of your better efforts, Darren.

Moyes was what we needed when he took over and done a fine job to a degree. I have no issue defending that. But it got to a stage that a lot of the fan base got fed up of what was being served up and he couldn't break that glass ceiling. So I'm equally comfortable criticising his record.

Now, I will give him grace for the constraints under which he operated, but he couldn't do it at Manchester United. His demeanour and modus operandi is to play down expectation. Him and Bill Kenwright were a match made in heaven. Bottle it when the expectation and potential is almost there. There lies the issue regardless of manager, but Moyes didn't help himself.

Martinez. Didn't want him. A manager who had just been relegated; forget winning a trophy. Humble pie eaten fist season before the chickens came home to roost. No ill feeling or hatred. Just a no thankyou to any suggestion of a return.

Personally, and as an one the fence person with Lampard, within reason and unless this goes south very quickly, let's try and set a plan through for once instead of changing managers and backroom staff every 12 - 18 months on average.

Prediction time. Kompany to replace Martinez as Belgium manager. Vacancy open in Lancashire for Martinez.

Lancashire, not Merseyside, where we have resided since 1974.

Barry, if you can't see that identifying we need players and taking ownership of recruiting then I am not sure what to say to you.

Player 1: "Yes, I would like to sign for Everton but need to talk to the manager about the plans."

Bill Kenwright: "Well, we can set up a Skype meeting as he is in Brasil as a pundit."

Player 1: "Oh, so he's committed to the club then!"

Women do strange things at that time of the month.

As for Moyes or Martinez, Kenwright must be nearing the vinegar strokes as two of his loves are walking towards the exit doors.

Our most successful manager came back twice – has he not learned a lesson from that?

In the summer of 2014 Martinez signed eight players in about six weeks.

Barry, Byrne, Besic, Lukaku, Galloway, Atsu, Eto and Hunt. A bit of a mixed bag. Some were freebies that he was clearly chancing his arm with, but I think it would be fair to say it was a productivity six weeks.

The reason he was able to sign these players is that he was focused. He turned up for work. He was at his desk and going about his Everton business.

I understand why people have an affection for RM, but he did go AWOL.

Signing players is a bit like buying a lottery ticket. No guarantee's you'll pick a winner, but you have to be in it to win it.

BTW; I was wrong about him covering the world cup. It was the African cup

Mainly my obsession and believing in Everton at certain times of the month.

2013-14 - 5th Place 72 points
2014-15 - 11th Place 47 points
2015-16 - 11th Place 47 points

Definitely one who would split the fan base again.

I will always maintain he was a bad fit, but subsequent events have made me think he may have found life in the comfort zone wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

I wouldn't include him on the list of managers whose fear of losing his job, actually cost him his job. He could have still been here now earning that money. Nobody would have dared sack him... So what was with the Zombie stuff ?

Please Santa, send us a manager who wants to play in the opponent's half this Chrimbo!

I did say signing 6 of the "requisite standard" the list you provide contains 1 - Barry (Rom was already here albeit on loan). The others were either not good enough, semi-retired or sicknotes.

The only criticism of Martinez I see as valid was he was too young for this job. His "phenomenal" comments were that of a man wanting to keep the Baines, Osman, Jags, Pienaar, Coleman, Howard cabal onside I doubt he would fall into that trap now.

The Moyes crew weren't dreadful but weren't winners and far too comfortable with that state of affairs. They needed replacing with at least equivalents with a fresher outlook. We didn't have the money to do it, it's as simple as that.

No attention to dead ball situations, pre-season games arranged at the last moment, and ridiculous (non-existent) game management. Good first season – well, yes but even that contained some abject football – the 0-0 at Cardiff for example with an opposition team clueless but the ball passed around at the back ad nauseam for no benefit whatsoever.

The football at times in the next two seasons was as boring as anything Ancelotti and Allardyce ever served up. But worst of all, he insulted mine and everyone else's intelligence with constant drivel about how everything was phenomenal when, it's quite obvious, we only rallied at season end when the players decided to ignore him and play their own game.

Worst manager I've seen at Everton in 61 years. Even if Belgium managed to win the World Cup, I wouldn't want him back.

He was phenomenally lucky to be offered the role as manager of a highly talented Belgian team but even with such resources at his disposal unless something totally unexpected happens... he's looking predictably likely to come up short once more.

I have always disagreed with you over Carlo, and your idea he was just here for the easy money. He bought two players, James and Allan, the other two bought on his watch were Godfrey and Doucoure and, as has been written by both players, Ancelotti knew nothing of them till he arrived at Goodison.

Because of Covid, we didn't get to see James live, but he certainly improved the team when fit to play. I criticized Carlo saying we played to defensively but football is a results business, and he knew with the group of players he inherited that was the only way to get results.

You and I can argue about style and why he left but what you can't argue against is that, in the last 100 years, only two Everton managers have a better win % than Carlos 46.3 % win rate. That was Kendall mk1 with a 54.1 % win rate and Catterick who just pipped Carlo with a win rate of 46.5.

We then had to pay out the remaining 3 years of his contract when he was sacked.

Pure Everton.

Winning La Liga and the Champions League immediately after leaving us with an entertaining team makes that narrative look foolish.

Reality is he knew the squad limitations and the likely summer transfer budget, therefore when Real Madrid came calling he quit. From a professional perspective, he made the right decision.

That left Everton with a dilemma, as only a manager on the downward slope or a nutcase would take the job. So Moshiri hired a nutcase manager on the downward slope.

The rest is history.

In return, he served up football of the lowest scientific order, his teams often cowering against inexperienced managers with worse squads.

I'm not sure who said he was finished. it certainly wasn't me (I'm older than he is and wasn't going there), but he seemed to go out of his way to confirm every other criticism leveled at him.

Yes, he is doing what he does well, working with top players, but while he was here he seemed to be hell-bent on confirming every single criticism leveled at him.

He did fail to build a team. He did fail to make us challengers, and he did play football every bit as ugly as his critics claimed it was... Oh, and he did leave a team in free fall... He was always a bad fit.

His only notable signing was a player in the dying embers of his career who was never going to be part of a future team build.

Carlo did okay for Carlo, but he was a disaster for Everton in terms of the amount he and his entourage cost, how he played the game when he was here, and the position he left us in went he left.

Oh dear!

https://footballgeekz.com/1760?fbclid=IwAR3XOkXIqFvJ8Zy07IB8qWCvDqWnHUuqGgL_r7lQJvJIfvh2SME3EZ8bsj4

I'll agree with your sentiment in the comments about easy street and no demands.

Delete / insert to just about every Everton manager for decades.

Demands, ambition and expectation has to come from the top. Managers should be held accountable, but so should those who hire them.

Sure, I'd prefer us to have a set of balls and go after a Gallardo, Pochettino or Simeone… but I'd take Bobby or (even) Moyes back right now too.

I have no issue with anybody disagreeing with me, but you`re not. You may as well have just copied and pasted my last paragraph in post 104.

One day, we'll meet for that drink. Argue and agree.

As my younger, more sensible brother always tells me, only Evertonians can disagree on the thing they all love and agree on.

Care to hear another player's musings on how he completely fluffed the derbies?

"We were still trying to outplay and outpass teams at that point. We were going to Anfield and the manager [Roberto Martínez] was more concerned with us dominating possession rather than outfighting them that night."

We lost that particular match 4-0, a feat Martinez was to equal 2 years later, deploying the same lack of nous.

I know people bang on about his overuse of the word 'phenomenal' but he did once use it to describe Aiden McGeady, hence people thinking he was utterly full of bullshit.

But on the language thing, I'll defend him. He may have lived in the UK for a long time and his English is superior to most of our Catalan and Spanish other than being able to order a beer or paella. Regardless, English is not his native language. When I speak German, I grammatically sound like a 6 year old with my mistakes and bad choice of words.

I sometimes thing we don't give enough leeway to foreign players and managers, expecting them to speak fluent Scouse.

In both languages it means remarkable/great.

In no world we live in does it refer to Aiden McGeady.

I think if we put the negative quotes about Roberto up against the positive ones, Jagielka's "maybe" would be buried pretty deeply. I also think Barry knows this.

Fair play to him. He puts up a decent case for Roberto and, if I ever find myself facing a jury, I will be tracking Barry down to represent me.

But he's almost definitely the best manager we've had in the last decade and his results bear that out. Getting such a high win % with such an incredibly limited set of players is impressive in its own depressing way.

However, the best manager isn't always necessarily the best choice. Ultimately he did not move us forwards. Though I wonder what would have happened if Real Madrid had not come calling? I'm not sure he would have progressed us but who knows?