Senegal lift Africa Cup of Nations after chaotic final

I hope their teammates line up a Guard of Honour for Ili and Gana when they return to Finch Farm.

...or walk off the pitch in sympathy for all of them having to suffer shit refereeing and VAR, Mike...

Justice triumphed, Gerry.

They lifted the Cup they deserved. That's what matters.

At least 2 of our lads come back to us having a won a trophy!

Well played Senegal!... should've backed them... Sigh 😲:⁠-⁠:⁠-⁠:⁠-⁠

Best team in competiton, Mike, but most of the football was tedious and crap passing - however, I did manage to watch 20% to 40% of each game shown live...

Is it my imagination that Moyes looks happily pissed in this photo.

https://www.givemesport.com/everton-transfer-news-john-stones-manchester-city-premier-league/

Oliver @ 6;

So we've finally moved away from taking United cast offs - to City cast offs.

No thanks, especially if the agents of players like Stones & Grealish still think they're 26, still at City and worst of all still think that anybody other than City are going to pay them City wages...and thrice no, if City want any more than a token fee.

Just No.

Agreed Derek, no more big money cast offs looking to add £'s to their retirement fund - I don't believe it will happen, and unless City drop way down from their current of Grealish, that probably will not happen.

Everton can not afford huge wages like these lads are on.

'Guard of honour!" Senegal behaved absolutely despicably in the most unprofessional way possible. Pure gamesmanship, nothing else. So, let's give a 'guard of honour' to any club who stops playing when VAR goes against them.

We should be fucking ashamed that our two fellas got involved and that it took red shite to get them back on the pitch. I hope that Senegal get heavyily punished for this with all options on the tables including taking the cup away from the cheating fuckers.

I can't wait for someone to post that VAR got it 'horribly wrong' and was so 'inconsistent' and 'unfair', and then tell us whether or not walking off the pitch and refusing to play was the appropriate response.

If you take away all the reasonable arguments and opinions about the behavior of the Senegalese manager and players or the Moroccan ballboys or the awful decisions by the referee or the Diaz PK, the last 35 minutes of that match was some of most entertaining television I’ve seen in some time. It was drama, comedy, farce, tragedy, and sport all of the highest caliber.

It’s sad that African football has the reputation that it does, but having watched the match with three Tunisians, they didn’t seem the least bit surprised or bothered by the absurdity of it all.

If ever the football gods were out to ensure justice on the pitch, that match deserved to go to Senegal. Delighted for Gana and Ndiaye!

'If ever the football gods were out to ensure justice on the pitch, that match deserved to go to Senegal'.

So, Jonathan, an experienced referee, you think that Senegal walking off the pitch and refusing to play was the appropriate response to a controversial VAR decision? 'Justice' was done in the end. I hope that you don't referee out of state if that is indeed your position.

Paul @ 13; what rarified air you must breath up there sat on your high horse perched atop of the moral high ground.

I agree with Jonathan @ 12;

To misquote Shaw's Ceasar and Cleopatra..."You must pardon him Johnathan, he thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

Forget it Jake, Its Chinatown - (they do things different over there)

Well done our lads

Guard of Honour for The Winners

It wasn’t VAR, Paul, it was down to the referee, on both occasions, although I suppose VAR could have stepped in and also told him to go to the television screen, (like they did for the penalty) after he had ruled out the Senegal goal?

Maybe because he blew early this might not have been possible, (I don’t know) but what I do know is that if I’d been away with my country, playing in a tournament for nearly four weeks and was in danger of losing to a diabolical last minute penalty, just a minute after having a perfectly good goal ruled out, I wouldn’t have been in the mood to just accept the referee’s decision and get on with the fucking game.

People can agree or disagree with the actions of what the Senegal team did, but there’s a whole bigger picture as far as I’m concerned, because football is slowly beginning to eat itself from within, imo.

It wasn’t just, sort that fucking edit button out Robots!

Actually, we now have the two fellas on here - the only two - who remind us quite often that their valuable experience as referees allows them to comment on issue XYZ.

So, I'll open the question further and involve Mr. Gaynes who couldn't wait to get the first comment in to say that Finch Farm should give Senegal clowns and cheaters Gana and Ndiaye a what - 'Guard of honour!"

Remember, these are two posters who are not shy to remind us of their refereeing credentials.

So, Messers Gaynes and Oppenheimer, please give a one-word yes or no answer. As 'experienced' referees, do you think that Senegal walking off the pitch and refusing to play was the appropriate response to a controversial VAR decision? '

YES OR NO.

What a pathetic response Derek - 14 - that addresses nothing.

'High-horse', dear God, it's called rules soft lad and step up from your low horse.

If not one of those Senegalese cheats and clowns did not belong to us we would not even be having this thread/conversation.

Tony - 15 - I thought the pen went to VAR. Sorry. That changes fuck all for me. So you would encourage your lad at Millwall to fuck off the pitch if he and his team don't agree with the ref?

Some people do not agree that it was a perfectly good goal and it was a penalty.

Oh, and on the first '90 Morocco deserved to win.

Tony 15,

Football is bent on certain occasions,mostly favouring the bigger teams.

This occasion was officialdom favouring the hosts of the tournament.

Apologies Messers Gaynes and Oppenheimer.

So, please give a one-word yes or no answer. As 'experienced' referees, do you think that Senegal walking off the pitch and refusing to play was the appropriate response to two controversial

decisions by the referee?

YES OR NO?

I'm not a referee. Maybe that is a good thing in summarising this. They were both poor decisions, that much I think we can agree on. There is a view that there was an element of home side favouritism here and while that can't be proven, for obvious reasons, anything involving that slippery customer Infantino might be suspected of being bent. We are not close to the scene of the crime either, those who are, like the Senagalese management may also have had some indication of possible home side favouritism and found their suspicions 'confirmed'. It is known their hotel, training and security arrangements were poor, maybe intentionally so. And of course, in the heat of the moment...

So where that leaves me is that I understand why they walked off but I don't agree with it. The most likely scenario is poor refereeing not conspiracy.

On the other matters, I don't see it as cheating. I don't think trying to put off the pen taker was in their mind (though it clearly was with Mendy). They were just angry and mad, Nor am I convinced this led Diaz to choosing a panenka in a moment of madness. Had he just taken a normal pen and missed, that accusation might have greater merit. As to our players, it was the coach and Senegalese management who drove the decision to protest and leave the pitch in the heat of the moment. The players just obeyed. Mane, given his status, was one who didn't have to follow and it is possible he recognised, even then, the basic truth. Stay off the pitch and lose by disqualification or come back on and have a small chance of a penalty miss. What I think we can all agree with it that it was a very unedifying spectacle and does little to enhance football's reputation. And the Moroccans were not blameless in this regard.

It's good to see two blues winning a cup because l can't see that happening to the other 9 anytime soon!

I would never tell others what to do unless I was on the pitch myself Paul, and if it was me playing in that game, then the least I probably would have done is told the ref to fuck off you cheating bastard, meaning he would have then sent me off anyway.

Have you seen the footage of the Senegal reserve goalkeeper, having to stand behind the goal with a towel in his hand to help Mendy, keep wiping down his gloves in the teaming rain Paul?

The ball boys were trying to snatch the towel out of his hand and he had to stand there because when his teammate put a towel through the net, they kept fucking off with it.

I am now of the opinion that football, is definitely corrupt, and believe it’s becoming clearer every season since VAR was introduced imo.

Some people are outraged by Senegal, and some of us are outraged by the way the game has gone because it’s now simply full of dirty cheating bastards everywhere.

Paul G., I don’t know and have wondered for some time why you choose to pick fights so readily and unnecessarily with people, notably Mike G. Until now, I’ve kept quiet because he can defend himself. But now you’ve turned on me, and disappointingly, for no good reason.

I’m not defending the Senegal team’s actions. I understand their fury, but no, a team should never leave the pitch unless things are unsafe for players or racist abuse is being hurled their way, or something like that. But I get it, and I stand by my belief as a human (not a referee) that Senegal deserved that win.

I can still be as objective as any human referee can be when I do my job at a very high level. And the referee in this case would’ve been justified in abandoning the match and awarding a forfeit, or at least giving a yellow to each player who left the pitch without the referee’s permission. But in a tournament I would’ve conferred with tournament organizers before abandoning the match.

The gist of my point was that it was entertaining television and hilarious, and that the football gods were shining down on Senegal. And I stand by those two points.

Very interesting Jonathon, thanks for that explanation of what the referee, was within his rights to do, once the Senegal team, decided to leave the pitch.

A part of me was wishing that the Senegal team never came back out onto the pitch, because I’m past the point of no return with regards the ineptitude, that I feel is bordering on corruption, when I think about subjective refereeing and the very inconsistent nature of a lot of big decisions, even with the help that VAR, was supposed to bring.

They are lying in front of our very eyes, is my own view, and once again I can’t reiterate enough that, I believe it is slowly killing the game.

The obvious contradiction is that the extra time period in the rain, was as good as anything I’ve watched in a long time

Jonathan 24 - 'no good reason'? 'If ever the football gods were out to ensure justice on the pitch, that match deserved to go to Senegal'. I think that's a good reason JO. You don't think that there might be a response to this?

And 'picking fights'! Dear God. Show me anything in my response that is disrespectful of you or aggressive. I actually am very respectful of you and if you had posted 24 earlier on there would have been no need for my message apart from to say 'good post' that I learned a lot from.

Paul, your comment at 17 reeks of sarcasm and derision of me and Gaynes for no good reason. I will continue to burnish my credentials as a referee because a) I’m not very good at most things in life, but I’m a very good referee, and b) I think it’s valuable as a contribution on TW to explain referee decisions, defend referees when needed and criticize decisions as well. Also, generally when commenting if you use CAPITAL LETTERS it makes people think you’re screaming or mad — it’s very Trump-like.

But I truly don’t want to become your enemy, so we’ll leave it at that.

Tony, in all my time as a Blue, I’ve never felt that EPL referees are corrupt. Sometimes awful, yes, but I’m not generally prone to conspiracies and I generally think English refs are honorable and doing their best, even if they’re human and may have biases (unconscious or not) towards certain players or clubs. But watching the AFCON final and reading the statistics about the disparity in cards shown or fouls given to Moroccan opposition during the tournament, it was hard not to be very suspicious. I mean, those last two big calls were just utterly absurd. Maybe if you don’t call the push on the goal, you can defend the penalty on review, but you can’t take away a good goal, then give a questionable one at the other end. Any half-decent referee knows that.

As I’ve said before I think most professional referees are excellent, but the inconsistencies especially around VAR are absolutely a stain on the game. And occasionally a referee will have an awful match or cock up a big call, but that’s life, and it will happen with every referee in the world, because they’re human and refereeing is incredibly difficult. But most referees are not corrupt, and I will stand by that statement until proven otherwise.

Fair JO. Agree, let's move on. But not before I say that my point was not dripping in sarcasm, it was a genuine one - surely an experienced ref like you could not agree with what the Senegal team did? For the record, I've always learnt from the perspectives that you bring to 'heated' VAR/refereeing decisions on here. That was the main motivating factor for putting that point to you, and I do wish that I had not written that last line.

I haven’t even read your whole post because I’ve just got up Jonathon, but I’m pretty certain I could prove there is MOST DEFINITELY a level of corruption in the EPL.

It’s already become a circus, (imo) and until referees are made to speak then I don’t think anything is going to change except maybe soon, somewhere in the near future, a team might leave the pitch and not return.

Another bugbear of mine is why they don’t have SPECIALIST VAR ONLY REFEREES? It’s completely ludicrous, and shows how much power these inept officials have got.

The best bit is when they get it completely wrong, are never asked to explain how they got it so badly wrong, and everyone has got a cob-on with Dermott Gallagher, because he always seems to side with these very poor referees. Like I say, it’s become a fucking circus, and a part of me can’t wait for football to implode.

Thanks, Paul, for acknowledging your first post could've been different.

I think you missed my first point, which started off by saying that I was ignoring the sound arguments critiquing the way it all went down and just appreciating the entertainment value. I was never absolving Senegal of their actions.

Tony, to your corruption and VAR and implosion arguments. Football won't implode anytime soon. It's far too lucrative.

I think FIFA is corrupt, and I loathe petro-state ownership, unlimited spending via debt, talks of breakaway Champion League clubs, and a host of other things that surely make English football far less pure than it was 30+ years ago. But I'm not sure what would cause it to implode.

As for VAR specialists, I guess it could happen, but I doubt it will and I'm not sure how it helps. The decisions have to be consistent either way, and it would be hard to find referees who work their entire lives to get to the top all of a sudden agree to sit in a booth as a profession.

Maybe if you paid them enough, or you could use retired referees, but I think it misses the point. VAR has become awful because it's terribly inconsistent and it causes delays after goals and no one understands it half the time.

As for corruption, I just don't see it. There's no way Howard Webb is telling referees to make calls for certain teams. It goes against everything referees believe in, and it would've leaked if it were remotely true. Where supporters get upset is when they feel that calls always go against their club, which I understand.

So let's just take a few big calls off the top of my head from this season. I hated the Tarkowski handball call where he leans into it with his hands behind his back, as well as (but less so) the Dewsbury-Hall one with his hand slightly over his head sliding to defend a shot.

But plenty of commenters, supporters and professional referees, believed those calls were correct by some interpretation of the law.

Likewise I didn't think it was handball against the defender a few weeks ago when Dibling fired from the top of the penalty area, as I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to the defender as hands in a natural position.

I was probably most angry about the no-call against Barry when the Arsenal defender kicked the bottom of his foot, because that call is given so often.

Lastly, the Keane red card I found ridiculous on the one hand but by the letter of the law I could understand the decision. To me that should have been a “common sense” or “spirit of the game” decision to not issue a red card.

My point is that none of those calls screamed corruption to me. Inconsistency, absolutely. “Small club” bias? I guess, maybe.

But all the VAR specialists in the world doesn't change the fact that when my high level referee friends and I exchange debates each week in big calls in world football, we almost always disagree to some extent. That will never change. There will always be calls that half the people think are handballs, but half don't, and rules and specialists and VAR will never change that. That is not corruption, it's just reality.

Thanks for listening to my TED talk.

Howard Webb is a liar, Jonathan, the only two crowds that ever got to him was Everton followed by Stoke. Seriously,

Corruption in world football?

The FIFA boss who gave the World Cup to Qatar gives you a clue.

Any prize off the top shelf for guessing where the boss and his family now live?

As I said, John, FIFA is entirely corrupt beyond repair.

Tony, I'll take your word for it that Howard Webb didn't like Everton. But do think he's telling his referees to deliberately screw us?

I have to believe no, or else we are well and truly fucked, but it seems like you're convinced that PMGOL truly has it out for us.

The Howard Webb referee days were before I became a Blue.

Jonathan 33

I'm convinced too.

Not just Everton, they definitely pander to the perceived bigger clubs.

I totally agree with Tony Abrahams.

Anyone who doubts there is corruption in the English game only has to go back to the Clattenburg derby where numerous outrageous decisions were given against the blues and it was reported that Clattenburg had spent the preseason on tour with the RS.

Then we have the ridiculous claim by most referees that they support minnows rather than any affiliation to Premier League clubs.

Have some honesty please.

Perfect example of how long its been going on for:

Westerfeld (?)the Liverpool keeper in added on time, kicks the ball out, it hits Hutchinson and rolls back towards the goal with plenty enough pace to take it over the line.

The ref (Poll?) watched the ball roll towards the goal, as it got to the edge of the 6-yard box, he blew for full time before it crossed the line.

Jay, 36

Spot on.

Clattenburg gave one of our players a yellow card.

Gerrard got down his ear and he changed it to a red.

I'm not totally convinced they fully have it out for us, Jonathan, but I do think there is definitely a lot of confirmation bias towards the biggest clubs.

I used Webb as an example to highlight this because, if it was only Everton's crowd that genuinely got to him, closely followed by Stoke, logic tells me that he was talking about certain clubs because we have all seen Liverpool and Man Utd, get some very, very favourable decisions over the years on their home pitch.

Liverpool conceded more penalties at Anfield during the COVID-19 season than they probably have in the 5 years since, and the minute Ferguson left Utd, Clattenburg gave Liverpool three penalties in one game at Old Trafford.

I still think they were out to get us a couple of seasons before we got our points deduction. I'm certain I could prove it or at least make a very good case, because some of the decisions that started going against us became very inconsistent, but not so for a few of our opponents during that run in, when a certain Michael Oliver was in charge.

Jay,

It is interesting on Clattenburg, he has recently admitted he made mistakes and denied the influence of Stevie G.

When it happened, I had a friend who was a mutual acquaintance of Clattenburg and I raged at him, he went to Clattenburg and from his perception Clattenburg seemed genuinely bemused that I or anyone else would think he was biased.

I think the thing with the refereeing is that corruption sounds like an orchestrated scheme developed in smoke filled rooms by shadowy figures. But I think a lot of bad refereeing has to do with human weakness and emotion.

Put it like this: on one hand, you have revered managers, eg, Pep, Wenger, Fergie, screaming at you like you're an idiot, and superstar players whingeing saying you don't know what you're doing. That would be very intimidating for an average referee who has none of their real world clout and earns a pittance by comparison.

On the other hand you have some journeyman centre-back, or some mediocre job-hopping manager like Alan Pardew making the counter-argument, it would be easy to just get overwhelmed and intimidated and if you're not 100% sure to buckle to pressure and favour the more powerful figures.

And realistically, at high speed from distance from one angle, many decisions are not clear-cut in real time. Therefore, these contestable ones tend to favour the powerful because most people are weak. On the other hand, you might get some bloody-minded individual who goes the opposite and seems to "when in doubt" go against the grain and make the least likely decision, eg, Clive Thomas. Unfortunately for us, in his case, that also counted against us. lol

Jonathan

One thing about Webb I found bizarre was his defence of the non red for Dalot. He said if it had been given as a red then it would have stood but VAR were right not to intervene as they weren't 100 percent sure the ref was wrong. The thing with that argument is that it undermines the whole VAR process as the process involves VAR saying "have another look," after which the referee still makes the final call. So if they only intervene if the referee is "100 percent wrong" then surely VAR make the final call and don't allow the mistaken referee the chance to uphold his wrong decision? The other issue with his bar for intervention is that it is laughably false. How many times we do we have long pauses while VAR anaylze a piece of action over and over again from different angles, before deciding whether the referee should even take another look? If is 100% wrong clearly and obviously then it should take two seconds and VAR say "you're wrong referee you're overturned." Another thing I didn't like was Webb refereeing to players reactions. We all know that if say James Tarkowski received a minimal level of contact that he would react very differently from Mo Salah. So because he is stronger, braver and more honest then he doesn't warrant earning a free kick? It is really ridiculous and just introduces more opaqueness and vagary. You might as well go back to no VAR because it is easier to accept an error of judgement by one person in one moment, versus a handful of people having an existential debate about players reactions, angles, etc and even then having made a decision to leave the final call to the guy who has already made an onfield decision.

There's going to be more usage of VAR at this summer's World Cup but the good news is that they're going to try and speed up the process.

Like a lot of things that look really good in principle, there's usually a downside when it is actually brought to the table, but if it helps to keep people talking by creating even more controversy, then my advice would say, "Be careful!"