Something happened at Goodison last season, an unexpected treat. After years of suffering endless wars of attrition, Evertonians were watching some of the most exciting football played in the Premier League, pundits were drooling over the performances of Pienaar, Baines and Coleman. Jagielka was cementing his place in the England team, even Ossie was called up.

I’m not sure why this came about, maybe David Moyes was stung into action by the tidal wave of anger directed at him over missed opportunities the year before, who knows? For all I know, he may well have already had the nod from Sir Alex and thought "Sod it, I’m out of here in May so I may as well go for it."

Whatever the reason for, we were left in no doubt this group of players can play. Only bad luck and bad refereeing prevented us winning at Man City, Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool. We were being applauded off by the home fans at places like Swansea and Villa; Baines and Coleman were playing like wingers... one manager called our tactics "incredibly brave". The only thing we lacked was a top striker.

Everton had made tremendous strides in terms of the quality of football, the full backs were allowed to bomb on and were linking brilliantly with people like Pienaar and Osman to open up defences. Jagielka and Distin were doing what they do best winning the ball and giving it to the footballers. The long aimless punts drifting out for goal kicks were gone too, if we did go long it was to Fellaini’s chest or Vic’s feet... and we were attacking again.

And so too the point: Is Martinez getting the best out of his players? I have made no secret of the fact that I don’t think he is and although accusations such as "anti-Everton" have been levelled against me for daring to even suggest it, I have yet to see a convincing counter argument.

Let’s be clear here: I’m not anti-Martinez. I want us to win too badly to go down that route. I’m not against his ideas either, but I feel he’s being a tad self-indulgent. Of course he wants to put his own stamp on the team, but would he not be better advised to change things gradually? Sustainable evolution.

I don’t particularly care about who’s pro who, or who’s anti who; I want to concentrate on the here and the now and I think a decent start could easily have been converted to a brilliant start simply by playing to our players’ strengths, if Robbie insists on putting lippy on the bulldogs, I fear we may well needlessly surrender more valuable points.

We now have our striker, we have added quality to midfield... is this not a time to build on what we have? Do we really need to rip it up and start again?

I’d like to see a shift from this template football nothing dramatic, just a little compromise, release the full backs, let’s look for that early ball Kevin Mirallas keeps screaming for... not all the time, just enough to keep em guessing... And for fuck’s sake lets stop embarrassing our centre-backs and goalie, because not only are they giving crap teams a chance, they are making the beautiful new game we are supposed to be playing look ugly as sin.

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Lyndon Lloyd
1 Posted 22/10/2013 at 18:31:28
I'm not sure you have much to argue against here, Darren, at least not at this early stage.

The exciting football you mention under Moyes didn't just appear overnight last season; it was the result of a slow evolution over his tenure made possible by a gradual improvement in the personnel at his disposal.

Martinez has carried this through while putting greater emphasis on retaining possession which was, to my eyes, one of the biggest failings of Moyes's teams they couldn't keep hold of the bloody ball. The manner in which we stifled any hope of Hull getting anything at the end of that game on Saturday would arguably not have been possible under Moyes and there were plenty of occasions last season where we gave up very late goals and precious points with it that would support that argument.

We've lost one game in eight and the three draws at the start of the season were arguably down to the same lack of a reliable striker that dogged Moyes. Martinez's methods enabled us to control all three games but we couldn't score the goals to claim the points. Considering that there is often an unpredictable bedding period for a new manager, I think we've done very well so far under the new boss but, in my opinion, it's far too soon to be taking definitive positions on Martinez either way.

Ross Edwards
2 Posted 22/10/2013 at 18:48:43
And Moyes isn't self-indulgent?

He thought right up to that panic buy of Fellaini that he could win the league with no additions to that Man U squad. He said so himself.

Paul Ferry
3 Posted 22/10/2013 at 18:48:16
This OP has a WUM feel about it on the part of someone who has done a fair amount of trolling recently displaying in the process a quite low level of anything approaching realism.

This is for me at any rate more or less a non-argument and an attempt at this entirely early and provisional stage in Bobby's tenure that this suggestion to judge one way or another is futile based on so little time.

Now that I've shot myself in the foot by actually posting on this thread let me end by asking others not to post and ignore this attempt to pour oil on blue water.

Right off to the Fergie told Moyes not to sign a contract thread. I'm expecting fireworks. Haven't gone on the thread yet but already bristling with a little rage, hopefully it's not as bad as it seems.

Ross Edwards
4 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:03:06
You do have a point Darren about our start last season. We were excellent, and I really thought that Moyes had turned the corner. We were passing and moving, but from January onwards he reverted to type and fell away from that Champions League battle.
Ged Simpson
5 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:04:37
Right about the trio at the back.

I would sell Jags now whilst he has a high price and get a ball playing defender.

Sacrilige ?

Michael Winstanley
6 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:06:18
Southampton away. Be thankful he's gone.
Wayne Smyth
7 Posted 22/10/2013 at 18:50:45
I'd agree completely with Lyndon.

Results have been generally good, performances have often been superb, but very patchy too. We've had to integrate 3 new players into the team bought at the 11th hour, fight off OFM's advances for baines and cope with the loss of Fellaini.

Then the manager has had to re-educate the existing staff on a new brand of football where we aim to keep the ball, bring young players into the squad and develop them and all the while, he's still kept us within 1 point of a champions league spot and unbeaten in 8 premier league games.

You can complain or ask for more - there is always room for improvement - but a lot of the criticism he receives seems petty and bitching just for the sake of it(not aiming this at you Darren).

I've not seen enough to indicate that our full backs have less licence to go forward. Roberto seems a guy who trusts his players. He trusts Mirallas to play a more open role, he trusts barkley to just play and make his mistakes and learn, I see no reason why he would curtail arguably our most potent threat; our attacking full backs.

I for one am delighted with some of the changes we can see. We now always have an out-ball when defending. We no longer defend our 18 yard line with 30 minutes to go and a 1 nil lead. Roberto doesn't bring off strikers for defenders and leave no-one up front like OFM is used to doing and which once again worked so well for him against Southampton.

But you're right to suggest there is room for improvement, we still do take our foot off the gas sometimes when 1-0 up and allow sides to come back at us. Hopefully RM and his coaches will work with the players to get this mentality out of them. Our centre backs definitely need to work on their distribution under pressure and we need to work on our consistency and finishing.

Overall though, you can see progress is being made. Its rough at times, but we're 8 games in and have not really had our best 11 fit. The last guy had 11 years, made some good progress, but also stagnated in so many respects. Lets give RM at least a couple of seasons to get the players in he wants and get the side playing how he wants before we make judgement.

Paul Ferry
8 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:11:39
Shit Cheshire capitalist Ged Simpson you've made me post again after what I just said. But can't resist. I agree 100 per cent. No 110 per cent. Listen, I'm not anti-jags or ant-that but I do feel that in an era of quite frankly lower-than-yesteryear options in central defence for England Jags has a prominence that his overall qualities in distribution, positioning, reading the game, leading on the pitch, do not necessarily deserve. In a nutshell he's old school get a tackle in, hoof it, boot it, win it ......

And. to be honest, a gaffer or team or system should not be adjusting to the particular qualities of a single player. If said player does not fit then get rid or work with him to develop other sides of his game, if he has them.

But, caution, there might not be many other options at home - I was reduced to laughing fits when Dan Brierley suggested that the only option to replace Jags in the Prem was wait for it David Luiz. We could look overseas-overchannel needless to say. But in theory I agree, if this run of form from Jags continues cash in while people are still prepared to pay good money for him.

Ian Tunstead
9 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:20:06
Lets be honest, Martinez took over perhaps the best Everton side since the Mid 80's. All we have been lacking the last couple of season to have a chance of breaking into the top 4 was to have a quality striker which we now have in Lukaku. Martinez hasn't done anything revolutionary as stated in the O.P. We have been playing good football for a while now when all our best players were fit, we just didn't have the end product.
Ross Edwards
10 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:22:18
Martins Indi to replace Jags?
Dan Brierley
11 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:22:56
So enlighten us then 'Titus Maximus', who would you suggest is a better ball playing centre half in the PL, than a player who has captained Brazil, won the CL, won the Europa League, won the Confederations Cup, FA Cup, Portuguese League & Cup by the age of 26?
Ross Edwards
12 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:36:17
David Luiz is a good player, don't get me wrong, but he is more of a holding midfielder than a defender. He is a defensive liability. A disaster.
Barry Rathbone
13 Posted 22/10/2013 at 18:48:27
Darren you miss the most important issue.

The Moyes renaissance had a massive flaw (I agree with the ulterior motive after a decade scenario btw) it was a tortoise - rather slow and ponderous and at the first sign of trouble disappeared into it's shell.

I thought we would win the FA cup pre Wigan but as the day got closer the familiar choking feeling arose, playing well when it really mattered hardly ever happened under Moyes the sense of forboding was unfortunately correct.

Passing, attacking football was simply not Moyes style no matter how many good performances the bread and butter league gave his default comfort zone was cagey hold what you have stuff.

Despite all their issues wigan were schooled a different way, "sin miedo" sums it up nicely. They had some players of genuine ability to whom a basket case of a team never knowing if they were arthur or marthur (should we pass? should we hold?) was meat and drink.

It was a consistent theme of a decade old nightmare something that should have been addressed years ago and now we are teething issues (perceived or imagined) really should be expected.

Putting aside the feelgood factor and overwhelming support of what Martinez is doing it really is not a question of can the players play?.... it is can they play when it matters?

The portents are good.

Raymond Fox
14 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:41:42
Darren when you say your not anti Martinez, quite simply I don't believe you!

'Moyes darlings' shall we call you, have carped from day one about everything to do with Martinez, and in a bitter tone it seemed to me.

So I don't see the point in getting into any dialog with you, your mind was made up from day one.

Andy Crooks
15 Posted 22/10/2013 at 19:42:31
You make some interesting points, Darren. Early last season we played some scintillating football and Moyes was getting the very best out of most players. However, there then came January; no strengthening of the squad and Moyes seeking advice on his contract.

From then on it was back to the default Moyes position. We finished last season looking at times utterly devoid of ideas and totally uninspired. It was a worn out regime and I'm glad it ended. This is what Roberto inherited.

With regard to RM not getting the best from the players, I would argue that there is not a coach in the world who would be getting the best from players he is gradually getting to know. Most of the squad have had a chance but I feel that RM has still been unable to field what he feels is his best side.

I too am frustrated at some aspects of the transition. I shut my eyes every time we defend a set piece, for example. I am usually a "glass half-full" kind of bloke and understand what you're getting at when you talk about ripping up and starting again. However, it seems to me that a few tweaks here and there was not going to be good enough.

Since the day Moyes left until now, things have got better; we are a better team playing better football. I expect us to improve in every aspect and I cannot accept that defensive frailty is the price we must pay for good football. I am convinced the foundations for success are being laid.

Paul Ferry
16 Posted 22/10/2013 at 21:09:13
Dan -957 - if you seriously for even one second think that Luiz is a v good central defender then you live in a cloud-cuckoo land where good footie nous is sadly lacking. Oh and don't reel off trophies won by the TEAMS he has played in. But hey don't ask me, pop over to the bridge one day and poll 100 random Chelsea fans on this - Luiz Chelsea quality defender? Luiz Chelsea quality holding midfielder?
Jarrod Prosser
17 Posted 22/10/2013 at 21:08:13
Release the fullbacks?'re saying that we don't have attacking fullbacks? Baines & Coleman - we're talking about the same two fullbacks, right?
Darren Hind
18 Posted 22/10/2013 at 21:48:47
You make some valid points, Lyndon

I've lost count of the hours I've spent shaking my hand to make my watch go faster whilst screaming at the referee to blow his bleeding whistle, so it's particularly nice to finish games in total control... but I'm still not convinced.

We may have finished Saturday's game in command, but not everyone will be as wasteful as Hull, they could very easily have scored three before the half. We seem to have to weather a storm in every game and it's nearly always of our on making... I'm still seeing Distin's back pass to Howard every time I close my eyes.

I was surprised Duffy was allowed out, I was worried his lack of pace may cost him a career at the very top, but I'm not so certain it matters so much in this system and he's a better footballer than the other two; perhaps he's on the back burner.

Anyway you may be right, Its very possible I am being too hasty. Time will tell...

Let's hope I'm looking back in 4-5 months wondering what I was worried about. In the meantime, I'll try to figure a way to prevent my eyes from closing...

Peter Warren
19 Posted 22/10/2013 at 22:34:04
Agree with a lot that Darren says Apart from release the full backs. I think the reason why we are dicking about in our own third so much is because it would be too easy for our players to go back to type.

They need to learn to pass and bring out the ball from the back and be comfortable in possession. It's funny listening to Mirrales' comments because I actually think his form has even rather average.

I think we'll find Stones will get introduced at centre back and we will also start mixing it up more but not until our players are comfortable playing

Kevin Tully
20 Posted 22/10/2013 at 23:02:30
Let's see where we are & how we are playing in Jan / Feb, it's crazy to judge any manager or new additions this early.

The early signs are very encouraging though.

Lyndon Lloyd
21 Posted 22/10/2013 at 22:57:47
Darren: "Anyway you may be right, Its very possible I am being too hasty. Time will tell"

I think that's it at the moment it's just too early to tell after 8 games (not sure the League Cup games count because he made so many changes that unsettled the rhythm).

I have misgivings about playing out from the back if it's going to get us into trouble so close to our own goal but I also know from watching Moyes's teams that lumping it forward was also just handing the initiative back to our opponents.

It may get trickier as more teams like Hull suss out our discomfort when pressed at the back but if Martinez can get the midfielders to provide more of an outlet and resolve the problem then we'll be in much better shape than under the Moyes model which just involved too much hoofing for me.

Mick Davies
22 Posted 22/10/2013 at 23:16:55
"Osman opening up defences", "the long aimless punts were gone too", Everton 0 Wigan (who got relegated) 3. 11 years to find a striker and RM finds one in a couple of months. 11 years to perfect a system yet he never did, RM isn't even given til Xmas.

Arteta played as left winger, right winger, behind striker, same with Osman, Neville right back, left back, midfield, McFadden, both wings, support striker, centre mid, Watson, RB, LB, Mid, Striker, Jags, RB, Mid, CH. Vic, LW, RW, striker. Coleman, debut at LB!!!, mid, wing, RB. The man didn't have a clue. What manager gets 11 years without winning anything?

Look at the reigning champions and tell me no one could do a better job. Your pigheadedness is embarrassing and if you love the man so much, head down the East Lancs and watch the drudge that Man U fans are suffering: me and thousands of others are happy with the way things are.
Paul Ferry
23 Posted 23/10/2013 at 00:25:25
Peter - 092 - 'They need to learn to pass and bring out the ball from the back and be comfortable in possession'.

Agree 100 per cent Peter but er erm Jagielka?

Nick Entwistle
24 Posted 23/10/2013 at 00:32:31
I'm not against Martinez per se, I was against him coming to Everton. We may end up playing 'good' football, I do not think though that he is the manager to bridge the gap and claim top 4.

Yes, he likes the ball to be passed around, but he is not some revolutionary. Make your team pass pass pass and you grandiosely get called a manager with a philosophy. Big Sam's time at West Ham is called a project. Two sides of the same coin.

I think in Martinez we have a good manager, who can run a club very well. But he is not special. I think we will come to recognise that.

Both cup winning managers have exited the league cup this season. Cup wins are a lottery, there's no secret formula. And the best piece of midfield interplay that our team has produced earning raptures from Goodison Park still had the ball end up with the back 4.

The way people talk of him is motivated as a reaction against the previous manager (I've posted on here, long before Moyes's departure, my dislike of Martinez should he come this way). Both in the hoofball that only played part of his style, and for whatever grievances they have against him as a person.

All this praise yet he had a year-on-year downward spiral at Wigan, and performed worse than Jewell and Bruce, ending up relegated. If he wanted to show that he could take a pauper like Everton into the top 4, he should have been able to take a pauper like Wigan to the safety of midtable. Once. That his teams like to knock the ball about doesn't get him the gig, not in my eyes any way.

I agree with the post. He doesn't utilise the full backs like Moyes did. And whatever you think about Moyes, the left flank was the best in the league, and that was quickly being caught up by the right flank.

Mirallas says he has more freedom now. Is Coleman not bombing on the price we pay for this? Or is the benefit the increase in possession the full backs contribute to by being made available further back.

RM is a good manager, but not a special one with a brilliant style of football just round the corner just as soon as he's able to translate this amazing philosophy to the players, or get his own player in, or or or... Pleasing on the eye, yes, but nothing revolutionary, and will eventually be subject to the same questions that Moyes was asked, as the post alludes to is he getting the most out of the players.

When (if) we're 10 points off Europe this season, and next, and the season after, is playing the ball around going to stop us posing those questions?

I'm not doing a Tony-Marsh-on-Moyes with Martinez, neither am I looking at the Emperor's new clothes and calling out the heathens who dare to raise an eye brow in his direction. I simply don't think we'll improve under him.

That was my belief before he arrived. If I had to base an opinion on his matches since he arrived, then pass pass pass doesn't change this. Have we really got going this season, performance wise? Lukaku is papering over the cracks just to keep up with where we were this time last season. And because of that, I look forward to the Villa match.

Mick Davies
25 Posted 23/10/2013 at 01:22:47
Nick Entwistle, you're getting boring. If all you can do is criticise OUR manager then go and do something else until Martinez gets the sack (which will be around Xmas time if your assessment is correct). How long would you have given Kendall? If you were a Man Utd fan, would you have demanded Ferguson go before 6 years?

I have suffered Bingham, Lee, Harvey, Kendall Mk 2 & 3, Walker, Smith and years of dross from Moyes, so I'm willing to get behind RM and give credit where it's due. Remember, Moyes had never even managed in the PL before us and the reason Martinez struggled at Wigan was JJB had to be bought back by Whelan so his funds ran short and the best players started to get sold.

Moyes couldn't win a trophy with what he described his best squad since he arrived, and Wigan came to Goodison with an inferior team and played us off the park. Get over it or get another Interest; he's the Everton boss.

Ian Tunstead
26 Posted 23/10/2013 at 01:48:05
Mick did you tell all those who criticised Moyes to get another interest when he was manager? I thought this site was a place where fans could give their views and opinions on all things Everton whether that be praise or some constructive criticism.

Personally I think people are getting slightly carried away, Martinez doesn't seem to have changed much really in my eyes. Every man and his dog knew we were lacking a quality striker, he got one on loan. He got McCarthy in to play in place of Fellaini, Barry is playing in the Gibson role and Barkley is getting a game now that Neville has retired.

Osmen is still playing on the wings at times and Naismith is still getting a game from the bench which used to have the Moyes haters in uproar, but its ok because its Martinez and he's trying to get the team to pass the ball so it looks nice and pretty.

Everything else is the same except we seem weaker from set pieces with the loss of Fellaini and the defenders seem to be playing silly beggers at the back when its not necessary and the players don't seem to be as fit. We struggled the first 3 games to finish teams off without a quality striker, just like last season; now we have a striker who has the ability to turn those draws of the past into wins.

It's still early days though so it's not fair to be too critical, Martinez should be given a full season to gage if there has been any progression. I think the real Martinez team will be seen next season when he has no Lukaku and possibly Barry. The players should be more accustomed to his "footballing philosophy" and perhaps a few more of his own signings will be introduced but I am not all that enthusiastic to be honest. Time will tell...

Harold Matthews
27 Posted 23/10/2013 at 01:13:49
Nick. As someone who is supportive of Martinez and 50-50 Moyes, I found your post quite interesting. Personally, I hope you are wrong. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but your dislike of his appointment as Everton manager seems to have landed you in the unenviable position of Fault-Finder-in-Chief. Not a nice place for a happy life.

As for him being special, well that's something which will take time to reveal itself and right now he's still trying to find his feet. For me, the two games coming up are the most important so far because they will provide an accurate assessment of where we stand. Let's hope we rise to the occasion. Benteke leading their high line of pressure may cause problems and it will be interesting to see how we cope. At least, this time he won't be marked by Heitinga who was continually exposed because Distin was drawn across to help Baines. Will they throw everything down their right wing again, I wonder?

As for Martinez getting the best out of players, well Moyes brought Mirallas in and they had a running battle because Super Kev was not inclined to do a full shift. He has still not altered but Martinez is trying to find a happy medium to keep him buzzing for 90 minutes. The lad is a talented headache but is finally starting to show some form, albeit to the detriment of Seamus who no longer has space up the wing. This is something you alluded to and Martinez must think it's worth the sacrifice. He'll have certainly given it plenty of thought.

Christopher Kelly
28 Posted 23/10/2013 at 07:57:31
Hear hear, Mick! Spot on esp. with the first post.

All Moyes needed was a striker??? What???
He ruined every one he had and could no longer recruit a top striker. Martinez has generated enough interest in us that both Barcelona and Chelsea have found value in their starlets learning with us... and that was within the first 2 months of RM being here!!! There is less than a 0% chance of Moyes being able to land a 40m striker like Lukaku for a season. Fact. There's a reason why these players have arrived. His name is Annigo Montoya... I mean Roberto Martinez

Steve Pugh
29 Posted 23/10/2013 at 08:15:25
It does strike me that some of the people that hated Moyes are desperate to make Martinez better than he is, whilst those that loved Moyes are constantly finding fault with the new man.

Truth of the matter is, this team is as good as the brilliant Moyes team we saw early last season, and it was a brilliant Moyes team. The only difference is Lukaku, and the acid test will be how we perform without him in team. We are shaky at the back, as we were when Moyes' team played like this, it is part of playing attacking football.

Whilst it is too early to judge one would hope that things improve the more players adapt to the Martinez way, not just of playing but of training as well.

In the meantime the team is not finished, there are problems, some players will come in, some will leave and the way that we play will continue to change. At the end of the season we will know whether or not the changes might be positive, by the end of next season Martinez will have to be able to prove that he is the best man for the job. Until then I hope that the board and the fans can put up with, but not cover up, the mistakes that he (and the team) will make. Praise him for the good things that he does, without going OTT and above all stop going on about the Man Utd manager, he is not important any more.

Steve Carse
30 Posted 23/10/2013 at 09:41:04
Ged Simpson (938), I'll go with this Sacrilige guy. Who does he play for?
Phil Sammon
31 Posted 23/10/2013 at 09:59:00
Darren 084

Duffy a better ball-playing defender than Jags or Distin?

What are you on? The lad is absolutely woeful on the deck.

My only criticism of RM is that pushing the centre backs out wide leaves Baines and Coleman looking like spare parts at times. I'd much rather the ball is fed to Baines at fullback who can look for a forward pass. Jags and Distin are in a position where any mistake provides a guilt-edged chance for the opposition. For me, it's a needless risk.

That said, I'm otherwise very happy. Just look at the league table, we can't really complain at the results through this period of transition.

It's great to have Pienaar back. He will give a balance that we have missed. McCarthy has shown why Martinez was prepared to dig deep for him and Kone will play an important part in the coming months.

Too early to judge, yes, but I'm very happy with our progress.

Kevin Tully
32 Posted 23/10/2013 at 11:01:28
Steve #151 - "Truth of the matter is, this team is as good as the brilliant Moyes team we saw early last season, and it was a brilliant Moyes team."

Brilliant - Really? I didn't hear many saying that after the Wigan game.

You also say "The only difference is Lukaku"

What about McCarthy, Barry & Kone?

Barry Rathbone
33 Posted 23/10/2013 at 11:08:02
The only people who use the word "philosophy" are those desperately looking for fault, everyone else says "good football".

There is a foppish sneering idiocy about these people posting like in the style of the dandy the Scarlet Pimpernel blustering on without real substance.

Speak to any neutral and Martinez's work to date is universally saluted, Goodison is packed to the rafters yet these people whine on about imaginary issues.

"They seek him here, they seek him there
Where is their boy with the ginger hair?

Is he in heaven? Or is he in hell?
No, he's in Salford and looks like a bell"

Get behind our manager, ffs.

Jamie Barlow
34 Posted 23/10/2013 at 11:37:59
The Wigan game was in March Kevin.
Steve Pugh
35 Posted 23/10/2013 at 15:07:39
Kevin 178, that's because the Wigan game wasn't early in the season was it?

Sadly you also miss the Lakuku point, if we had had him early last season we would have been much closer to the top of the league, the changes in the midfield haven't improved our play that significantly compared to Fellaini and Gibson.

Maybe you need to think about the meanings behind what people say before you respond.

Darren Hind
36 Posted 23/10/2013 at 17:59:53
I get Lyndon's post. Okay, he didn't entirely change my mind, but with reasoned, logical, counter argument he as able to get me to concede one point and reconsider a couple of others... but somebody is going to have to explain what Mick Davies is talking about to me.

Nobody will find a post from me offering support for David Moyes, because I have never posted one... so I'm at a loss to understand why he thinks I should be following him to Old Trafford. Truth is and I've posted this before I never liked Moyes, It may not sit well for some people, because it kinda negates their only argument, but I cheered out loud when I heard he was gone.

Why do people feel that, by claiming anybody who questions Martinez is a Moyes fan, they are actually offering some sort of counter argument? Why is this always put as an accusation? Do they really believe this sways the individual? That RM's critics will repent and proclaim him a superstar? Are they expecting people to be shamed into posting everything is Rosy? That the regularity with which our full backs are storming into the opposition penalty area has them permanently on the edge of their seats? That Jagielka and Distin are the new Beckenbauer and Krol ?

Take a look at Lyndon's post guys... then take a look at yours

Barry Rathbone
38 Posted 23/10/2013 at 20:51:42
Darren you are pointing out a post that more or less agrees with you not sure there is a lesson to be had other than "agree with me" - debate don't work that way.

At a risk of judging Mick's post you do the forked tongue business too much recently you said attendances are down and something else negative (sorry can't remember what it was) as introduction to a rousing support RM clarion call.

I remember thinking WHY????

What is the point of introducing previously unmentioned negativity if you want to appear supportive. In addition a record of griping about RM and drawing comparison to the previous regime by way of defending the previous regime (see this thread) has you boxed off as agenda driven despite the great start.

Hope that helps.

Mick Davies
39 Posted 23/10/2013 at 22:40:52
Ian Tunstead, do you think before post? If you read my comment I'm asking for fans to give Martinez a chance, FFS he's only been here a few months. As for telling people to find another interest due to Moyes, I can honestly say I can't remember any criticism of him for at least 5 years, even when we finished 17th with our lowest ever points tally it was overshadowed by the Rooney saga and Moyes twisted it to make him out a martyr.

Just because we're lying bottom of the PL without a win and falling gates and shit football, just wait and see, I'm sure it will get better...

Darren Hind
41 Posted 24/10/2013 at 05:36:40
So how else do we guage improvement, Barry ?

When I see claims of "improvement" my immediate reaction is to compare where we were this time last year, to where we are now - see title of article. I don't know any other way.

In my opinion, there have been some improvements, but in terms of individual player performances, I think anybody who claims they are playing better now, either didn't watch us last year or isn't watching us now

I also refute we are a better watch now; I got so much pleasure watching Baines and Coleman last season, I hate that they have been made to stay at home and keep possession. I would prefer them risking possession trying to be creative.

It's to my bitter dissapointment that in many aspects, the "adventurous" Martinez, is even more negative than the "dour" Moyes. I don't like seeing 5 Everton players spending the entire 90 ( free kicks excepted) in their own half.

I have accepted LL's point about my judgement being hasty, but if it's too soon to criticise, then surely this beatification is also a tad premature.

If I'm going to be "boxed off" at least put me in the right box... put me in the box marked "delighted Moyes has finally gone, but decidedly underwhelmed with events since "

I know . . . . . no pleasing some people.

Linda Morrison
42 Posted 24/10/2013 at 11:18:57
Come on now it's time to draw an end to all this debate about RM and Moyes. The fact is Moyes left Everton to further his career with a much bigger club. So Everton would have needed a new manager anyway. Some of the posts give the impression that it was Everton's fault Moyes left when we now all know that he was planning to leave from late 2012.

The past is gone, no manager is going to be exactly as the last so we need to move on. I agree with the comments about Jags, he needs to be dropped and give either Stones or Alcaraz a chance. RM is our manager and we need to support him

Mike Allison
43 Posted 24/10/2013 at 17:38:22
How are we still having Moyes vs Martinez debates? They don't exist, there is no conflict to be had. One is our manager, one isn't. You can like both. You can dislike both. It is a false dichotomy.

I liked the OP, I agree with his general thrust, a lot of what people are saying is great about us this season was already happening early last season. I liked Moyes when he was our manager, I thought he was good, and just what we needed, although he was highly frustrating at times. I also like Martinez, I think he's doing a great job, and has come in at the right time, and right now, he is also just what we need. I suspect that if he stays with us for as long as Moyes did we'll have developed irritations at some of his habits and tendencies as well.

I don't understand this desperate need to to draw battle lines and the need to put yourself and others on one side or the other. It's almost as if you're not allowed to voice doubts about Martinez, and you're not allowed to acknowledge that Moyes did good stuff with us. Of course you should be allowed to do those things, and it doesn't make you a WUM, a 'Moyes darling/lover/whatever childish insult some keyboard warrior comes up with next'.

Between Darren and Lyndon a lot of sense was talked in the first two contributions to this thread. However, I disagree with a couple of things that were said. One is that I think Martinez is actually being very restrained and hasn't changed too much about us (especially compared to early season last year).

It seems to me that he's realised his changes and adjustments should be slow and gradual and that there is far more to come. As he does this we will probably get better at playing out from the back and having 'good' possession (going forward and probing) rather than keeping it for its own sake and not going anywhere, or going backwards. My worry is that we won't be as good at defending by then as we are now. One might see our falling standards at set pieces as evidence for this, although I don't really see why the manager should make any difference when the players are the same.

Robin Cannon
44 Posted 24/10/2013 at 17:53:35
@Mike (557) - That was far too sensible and reasoned to have any place here.

Seriously, great comment.

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