From my seat: Man City (A)

First: as they say on GOT.( or not as the case maybe ) You’re up and at it early Ken, well done again.

That Pen is a serious contender for a medal contender for the ’Dodgiest pen of the Season’ (in any major league ) category. All this in the split second via TV of course, but when Milner and Jags came together he seemed to be on his way down nearly before he the shoulders met and that’s all it was – shoulders. In the next frame, as it where I thought that the reff was allowing play on. The next frame had the ref blowing and me thinking, Oh he isn’t, he’s giving Jags the foul... fair enough, but you could’ve knocked me down with a feather (me, you and almost everybody else as well) when he pointed to the spot.

The rest of it is as you say. The (very low) high point for me is that; i) Lukaku IS being coached in his (several) deficiencies, you could see it early on, he IS going for the flick on and he IS trying to take a lighter first touch... it isn’t instinctive or ingrained yet, but he is at least following the text, even if it is with his finger under the words and sub vocalising them to himself; and ii) his best position is at the old inside left, ball at feet into the box...feed him and he will score.

As for the rest, while not exactly writing off the season, I’m not pinning too much hope on even the 7th-ish trophy, just keep as high up the table as we can and hope that the Europa draw is kind to us.

The team are going through a bad spell at present, however, given the fact that father time is catching up with some of our established players, it’s a team in the initial stages of transition.

There great saying "You only missed them when they are gone" certainly applies in the short term to

Stones
McCarthy and
Naismith

I have to declare a liking for Besic and acknowledge that, when we have our loves and hates, we might be prone to selective perception. But first, I thought Besic was again covering acres of ground closing down space for the opposition, getting a foot in and not much got past him. And second, Barry was woeful so I can’t see why he was not the one taken off.

Incidentally, Besic is seen as a yellow or red waiting to happen. But Barry has the highest yellow count in the premier did I read? and he was on yellow when that substitution was made??

I thought Etoo was great yesterday, without having any real chances his attitude and commitment puts others to shame.

Barkley did well, unfairly booked but to me this lad is a substitute at the moment, behind Etoo and Naismith in the pecking order.

One last thing, I thought Distin and Howard played well after me slagging them off all week!

There, I got rid of some frustration with bad referees. Aaaahhhh!

I thought we got exactly what our pedestrian play merited.

We offered nothing at all as an attacking threat until the final fifteen minutes. Even then, there was only one real chance created during what should have been the teams ’shit or bust’ spell.

Yes, the penalty was contentious, and certainly soft, but it wasn’t a scandalous decision. In fact, it could almost be said to be deserved due to Jagielka’s downright stupidity in needlessly going in there for no reason whatsoever. The only danger was of his own devising. It was like Wile E Coyote setting the ’big pissing boulder perched precariously on the edge of a cliff’ death trap and then dancing around directly underneath it to test it out. The comical look of surprise seconds before he goes ’splat’ doesn’t cover the fact he really should have seen that shit coming.

If it was a young player making that needless challenge when the forward was going absolutely nowhere then you could accept it and put it down to the rashness of youth. When it’s an experienced 32 year old full international, your captain, and he can’t anticipate the risk of inviting a forward to introduce his arse to the deck on the edge of the box then it absolutely beggars belief.

As for which of the defensive midfielders should have been subbed? I’d say Martinez got that one wrong, but it wasn’t as though Besic was covering himself in glory. He’s got energy and attitude but he produced a lot of loose passes and spent long periods turning back into trouble. However, he was the best of a disjointed duo. Barry basically spent the entire game slowly stomping about like he’d been strapped into Ripley’s power loader from Aliens (*Clomp. Clomp. Clomp* ...."Get away from the ball YOU BITCH....I need at least another 40 seconds to lift my leg").

Hopefully having Naismith and McCarthy back will add some energy going forward. We are crying out for someone with a bit of pace on the right though. This would help us to open teams up.

We are just too predictable to play against at the moment.

I thought playing Hibbert at the back with Coleman in front of him did not really work as at times Coleman looked lost in the first half, although in the second half they did seem to grow into the roles and play better! I also thought Besic played much better than Barry and was baffled when he was taken off and not Barry who was on a yellow?

Overall though I thought we did look a little tighter in defence but all the other issues with us keeping the ball and playing it about at the back plus getting no-one in the box when we have the ball out wide still exist!

My summary so far before we enter the very busy and telling Christmas period is that we seem to be going backwards: set-pieces are awful, attacking play awful, plus the reliance on older so-called experienced players at the expense of our youth policy is starting to worry me! I’m hoping our coaching staff are working on all of the above!!

Have a great Christmas!

Ken, as ever, a balanced report, a little sanguine in tone, understandably so. We have been through these bad times before, both with RM at times last season, and before that under OFM. Injuries are taking their toll, but for me, I want to see more hunger and winning intent in our players. Samuel Eto’o clearly has it, as does Naismith and McCarthy, but yesterday I felt some of those lads looked jaded, listless even?

On one of the threads on TW, someone commented on the potential for Baines to be moved into defensive mid with young Garbutt coming in at left back in the mould of Philip Lahm’s transformation at Bayern. Having seen the laboured way Gareth Barry is performing now, and with Gibbo (as ever) and JM out, I’d like to see RM experiment with LB in Barry’s place and give young Luke a long overdue run of games. Baines has the intelligence and guile to play there, and, importantly, he is rarely injured.

The ideal stage would be against Krasnodar , with us already qualified, why not try this out , with Kone, Browning and Ovideo given their shirts as well?

I sit in the street end with my Dad and look at THE PARK END LIBRARIANS in disbelief sometimes, that single tier stand is deathly quiet. If they could get themselves going the rest of the ground would follow and Goodison would be a fortress. Shame. I don’t understand it.

Can’t agree with Franny Porter (#7) that Barry is overrated however I think that he’s come to the point in his career that all midfielders get to where the legs are slower than the brain, and red & yellows are picked up almost weekly – Souness, Keane & Scholes come to mind.

All-in-all some positives can be taken from the game in that we’ve played all the ’big clubs’ and haven’t been battered or it hasn’t been ’men against boys’ that I’ve witnessed for most of the Prem era; and against City we wasn’t at our best (although in fairness neither were they).

To compare our current team to the team of 3 or 4 seasons ago; we played Man City, Chelsea & Man Utd in successive home matches (I think), and we beat them all, but IMHO the Chelsea & City games were giant killing affairs, and it was only the United game (the one where Rodwell came on and scored to make it 3-1) that I had an 84-85 moment, with a rampant Donovan giving Neville a nightmare and we controlled and bossed the game against a very good united side..... yet another in a long, long list of false dawns.

Weirdly enough I haven’t given up an a CL spot; there are lots of points on offer and no team (including us) have stepped up to the plate as nailed-on for the 3rd or 4th spot.

Keep the faith boys and girls, even though you lose sanity, hair colour and credibility with the outside world.

If you’re going to stop defenders limiting the ease with which the man in possession can work himself a better position, then the game really is destined for oblivion.

I wasn’t suggesting it should have been a penalty or that the referee called it right. Simply that there wouldn’t have been a decision for the referee to make if Jagielka had not gone haring in when Milner was receiving the ball in a position from which he couldn’t really inflict any harm.

Why risk contact or connecting with an opposition player in the penalty area when he’s heading harmlessly away from goal? It was naive defending in the extreme, both clumsy and unnecessary and, nine times out of ten, a forward is going to take advantage and throw himself to the ground in such a situation (not suggesting Milner did in this instance).

Why give him the opportunity to do so, and the referee the opportunity to make another dogs dick of a decision?

I neither know nor care what Jamie Son Of Jam Face had to say about the incident but I’d bet my left nut he couldn’t wait to back the ref up.

Football is a funny game – and I am sure that, given the rub of the green, Martinez will turn this season around. Already, it has not been too bad – top of a very tough group in the Europa (giving us the luxury of trying our B-team in the dead rubber against Krasnodar) and lying like a wounded animal in 11th.

When we go on our run, you can bet that we will be up there with the Champions League contenders (but we would still have people moaning about how we could have won the league if we had not dropped points against West Brom, Crystal Palace, Hull, blah...blah..)!

I can’t see where our next win is going to come from now that Martinez has turned into Moyes. Coleman and Hibbert playing together. I am still scratching my head over that one.

In the summer, we need a total clear out of the meals-on-wheels brigade. It’s a joke the amount of geriatrics we have in the squad.

It’s no use trying to figure out what’s going wrong when it’s staring you in the face. Old men versus Young Lads will nearly always come off second best at this level.

Football is a results-driven game and no-one can predict the future, which is why the vast majority of footy fans line in the "now" and quite rightly so.

Bottom line is this, we are poor at the present and a lot cannot see where the next 3 points are coming from. It "might" get better but, then again, it "might" get a lot worse and only time will tell.

The only thing we really had to go on was Martinez’s past record, which – let’s be honest – was not that great and (barring a fluke FA Cup win) was pretty abysmal really considering he got relegated.

Remember, it is a results-driven game and not a game of fortune telling and predictions.

Lukaku will score given service but we don’t have any idea how to do it. Martinez needs to start earning this reputation he has of being an attacking manager as I don’t see it in our performances.

Why was it a fluke that Wigan won the FA Cup? Doesn’t our record 72 points and 5th place finish count for anything? I suppose us topping the ’group of death’ in Europa League with a game to spare also counts for nothing? Is our situation in the League that desperate that we can’t completely turn things around with a few wins?

Yes, fans are fickle and I for one am not ready for throwing in the towel!

I think a lot of the frustration comes from poor planning and preparation preseason which did not add sufficient quality to the squad and left the players unfit to start the campaign.

IMO this is behind the number of injuries we have suffered and the lack of confidence and team spirit we are now seeing.

I mean Sharpie getting in the way of an off target shot from Gary Stevens, and Gray fouling Sherwood in 84, not to mention the spawny Rideout goal in 95, eh??

Some cooler heads did predict a second season syndrome, I for one didn’t believe them but maybe they were right. Still, I trust in Roberto and I believe in his project. Yes he’s fucked up, yes he’s acting strangely lately, yes he needs time to change things. Oh, and yes we are fickle fans.

The points total last time out was brilliant — better than anything the former charlatan could manage in 11 long years of trying — but, last time I checked, it counts for nothing in this current season.

And the Europa League? Yes, we’ve won the group, but the perception is that Martinez’s focus on this has contributed to our, at best, mediocre performance in the one that really matters, the bread and butter of the Premier League.

Fans are not being ’fickle’ when they praise good performances and castigate bad ones — they’re just being normal fans who have more than a passing interest in the outcomes from one week to the next.

So please, let’s stop accusing fans of being ’fickle’ or producing ’knee-jerk’ reactions. It’s a cheap way of obliquely dissing other opinions rather then addressing specific instances where statements made seem over the top.

Personally, I’d rather earn a place in the top 4 as it is, as you say, our bread and butter. I agree with you that he seems to be putting all his eggs into one basket in detriment to the league. This is I dangerous game IMO as we saw with Wigan.

In an ideal world we’d finish 3rd this season and do a cup double but that isn’t going to happen. I’d rather concentrate on winning league games and seeing how far we can go in the cups but the league first for me.

We aren’t going to win the league or get relegated, so, actually winning the FA Cup or preferably, the Europa League is more important in my opinion. Remember, we win nothing for finishing top 8... we achieved that many times under the ginger one and every time it left me feeling unfulfilled.

What I posted was FACT! We are poor at the moment and posters "stating" it will get better are only guessing.

Wigan "were" very lucky to win the FA Cup, they where battered by Man City who could not put the ball in the net for love nor money; another "fact" is Wigan where relegated.

I bet Newcastle fans where "guessing" things would improve half way through the season they went down as well.

Fact is this: You, me, Uri Gellar or any other person you come to mention cannot predict the future, the "fact" that we have won the EL group also counts for fuck all because that is over and done with, so for the best part is history. If we get twatted in the first knockout stage then it all counts for nothing.

Try living in the "now" because that is what "is" happening and not what "might" happen. Perhaps thinking of a brighter "future" is a lot less painful than facing a painful "now".

Either way, you’re guessing about the rest of the season, mate.

ps: I so hope you are right, by the way.

I think a lot of people would probably take us ending 10th-16th in the league if we won the Europa or possibly even the FA Cup but we are a long way from doing so.

As for being too good for a relegation battle... other teams have been doomed by such complacency. I don’t think that’s where we are headed personally but no-one can rule it out.

No time to panic lads, Bobbys got this.

Instead of harping on about what Martinez did or did not achieve at Wigan, ie. winning the FA Cup and getting relegated, wouldn’t it be a more accurate to analyse what he’s actually done at Everton... and that is finishing 5th with a record points total.

Wigan and Everton live in a completely different financial world.

Practice what you preach: "try living in the NOW".

The single most depressing thing I’ve read on an Everton Website.

I remember when Everton managers got the sack for finishing fourth... now people want to book an open top bus to celebrate failure to manage even that.

Am I guessing? Of course I am, but so are the naysayers who are predicting a relegation struggle. The fact is, is we just don’t know. We could go on an amazing run or we could fold (highly unlikely) and get involved in a dogfight.

The thing is is to remain calm and trust the team and manager. Both are far better than our league position would indicate.

You must have a tardis mate, as I thought a year ago was in the past and today is "now".

Note to self... Space time continuum is fucked, must treat last season as "now"...

I have predicted nothing.

You should have said Liverpool are proper shite this season and we’re still behind them!

Of course you do.

Every Prem place is worth around £2 million a year plus a stronger chance of getting better commercial deals (LOL).

The Europa league is bringing in extra gate receipts but it is pure delusion and optimism to think we will win it at this point. You have to have luck, good form and good refereeing decisions. WE have none of those at present.

On the basis of most of the managers signings they were bought lazily (ie former players of his previous club or a job lot from Chelsea) without a lot of research into their suitability for a top club like Everton. Add to that the amateur "couldn’t care less" pre-season and it is no surprise we have fallen behind the likes of Southampton, West Ham and Man Utd.

I may be in the minority but I think the club is too big for Roberto to manage.

I agree with you regarding pre season. It was an absolute shambles, only had 5 games and one of them was a testimonial. Playing teams at a neighbors ground in hastily arranged games. Taking kids to Germany to play newly promoted sides and for what? We were off the pace them first 8 games and these extra Europe are really are starting to show on a tired and jaded team.

Oh how differently things could have been if we came out the blocks and secured them Leicester and Arsenal points first 2 games of the season.

Re your statement that we win nothing for finishing top 8.

Everton Football Club are in the entertainment business and the first team (regardless of some of our comments ) are their showpiece that a large amount of their budget is spent on. This means the first team are required to bring in money through their perfomances getting them higher up the league, gate money.TV monies and cup competitions.

The main source of money is in league positions that pay more the higher you finish in the league,so it is more beneficial to finish 4th than 8th financialy and this may help in not going back to our previous way of running the club by selling all of our better younger players to keep the banks happy.

I cerainly am not happy with the opinion that we put all of our efforts in the Europa competition as once the knockout competition starts 1 slip up and we can be out on the away goal rule.

Yes it was good to get into Europe this year but with the building up up of the team to bring the age of the squad down we still have to rely on as people say (our bread and butter) to stop sales of the likes of Coleman or Barkley .

Not a lot of supporters are happy at the momement but we are going to have to persevere with Mr Martinez until he shows that no, he is not as good as we believed from our perfomances last season

We all are aware that at the end of last season that the manager stated he required 6-7 players, but until we are informed why he never brought that amount in we have to support who we have

That being said, we are fans, and slagging the team gets us nowhere. The next few games will play a big part on where the season goes and my hope would be that the many players who have returned from injury and those currently out like Naismith, McCarthy and Stones will again contribute to the team.

In my opinion, John Stones has been a big miss. I will agree with many who have said that the way we are slowly building from the back is sometimes frustrating. I will also say that this has been the case since Stones was injured. He is younger, a better passer of the ball, and quick. The sooner he is back the better.

Let’s give the team a chance to grow together and let’s get them back fit and fighting. Mirallas has made an impact after his return and I am quite sure that Eto will help Lukaku grow as a player.

COYB

I’ve never called for an Everton manager to be sacked. (Although I wasn’t too downhearted when Moyes did one.)

You want to shout from the rooftops that Martinez has raised our expectations... Then you want to claim we were spoilt last season when we won nothing and even blew hopes of CL football in the last few games of the season.

If that’s you with your bar raised, I fear for you when you when Bobby’s Viagra effect wears off.

Also have to say that Barry’s association with Man City reminds me of Neville’s fixation with Man Utd. Hugs and kisses for all his ex-mates and then he throws in his worst game for Everton. Surprise surprise.

Worrying thing though is the age of some our players, I mean how the fuck did Barry get a 3-year deal?? He’ll have a walking stick before he leaves Goodison, accompany that with Eto'o, Osman & Hibbo having almost 2 years as well!!!!!. Fucking giggle when you see that Oviedo’s contract runs out this coming June and Mirallas now states that he wants CL footy – oh yeah, he has 18 months on his contract.

The Premier League is everything for me. It's a status thing and I hate where we are right now. Newspaper hacks on Sky Sunday Supplement kept rattling off the 6 best teams and we were mentioned every time. It felt good. It felt right. Unlike Southampton, West Ham, Newcastle, Swansea, Stoke and Villa, we are viewed as one of the big boys and that's how I want it to stay. Unfortunately, I'm not sure all the players feel the same way.

I still believe in our philosophies. We've been highly unluckly with injuries to key players. Unfortunately our injuries this year have all been to our more direct players.

West Ham won at the weekend with the long ball game. I remember when we won like that and still some people on here complained.

We had a great season last year but we blinked in the close season, we bought fairly badly, prepared badly, and then couldn't cope with the injuries that have piled up. My glass is half full though and feel that we'll improve but won't see CL or even EL football next year – too late now. Our best players are missing still (Naismith, Stones and McCarthy) and we'll improve gradually as we get fit with Oviedo, Garbutt and Browning coming along as well.

RM has to take the blame, of course, he's done badly this season and I think it's surprised him. His reaction has so far been poor in tactics, selection and substitutions but he'll recover a bit.

I think in the final reckoning though that we have a lot of players who are too old or just not good enough for the EPL. We have to rebuild again around our strong young core. If we could polish Ross Barkley so that he could do something good at the end of every run instead of giving it away, that would be a great start.

The Europa League has seen Garbutt get a run and he impressed with deadball situations. Coleman was reluctant to get forward as he would have left Tony exposed. Besic seemed to be restricted by the tactics as we always had eight behind the ball and no-one was getting forward to help the forwards. Eto'o put in a shift but was all too extravagant while Barkley did a few good things in that central role.

With 20 minutes, a reshuffle of the pack was required. In days of old we would push the likes of Dave Watson or a Mike Lyons forward. If we're going to lose, lets go down fighting. This current mob has no fight, no arrogance, lacks that bit of mongrel. Mr Nice guy needs to get that fucking suit off and put his tracksuit and boots on.

Hibbert was the tool that allowed the ref to allow a pathetic penalty.

Hibbert was the player who consistently failed to pass to his own players or fall over...

Hang on! it wasn't him.

He was there to defend and allow Coleman, who is in the worst form of his career, to have a go at their left back.

Didn't do any worse than Baines.

You know what you get with Hibbert, some posters seems to forget what type of player he is and is somehow not playing to his potential??

Also it seems that we want to big up our players based on 20 minutes of play again. There must be some reason why Bobby isn't playing Browning. It certainly isn't Hibbert's fault.

Despite the fact that Hibbert is the better defender of the two???

2 that come to mind are Coleman and Barry who are way off their performances they had prior to their injuries.
We would all like to see Stones back but the length of time Miralles is taking to get match fitness it may be late January until Stones is fully fit.

This thursday is an ideal situation to bring in a number of youngsters and others deemed as fringe players and not risk any more injuries to tired players.

Barry been great for us but he looks shattered,needs leaving out for a few games imo

Positives:

a) Relegation is not an issue. Regardless how shite we play we will still pick up more points than the likes of Burnley, Leicester and Sunderland just to name three (can include West Brom and QPR to the list if you want). Doom mongerers need not bother posting about relegation.
b) Other than McCarthy and Stones, all key players are healthy again and not far off match fitness
c) We won our EL league with a game to spare and don't have anymore EL games until end of Feb (so no more tiredness excuses for a couple of months at least Mr Roberto)
d) Oviedo should now be back and his enthusiam will be real bonus
e) V.Important - our play can only get better as we've been playing shite but are still in 12th.
f) Also V. Important - its still early enough in the season for a couple of back to back wins to make a big difference league wise.

Moving on.....Negative

Our own style of play seems to be our main problem. Whether it's the slow build up, balance of the starting XI, off form players, tiredness.....probably bit of everything. Big Question - Does Bobby know what's specifically wrong and more importantly does he know what to do/how to fix it? Recent evidence is not comforting and that's the 64k dollar question.

I don't buy into the 'our squad is not good enough' argument. On paper we have one of the strongest squads we've had in years. However, something just isn't right at the moment. Far too many players are off form (nevermind match fitness) and the whole team doesn't seem to have that positive body language that they had last year. Maybe its just down to confidence and we only need to get a couple of results (although we did that in the Vlla and Burnley matches.....).

Personally I'd like to see the manager try something new with the starting XI. We seem to play the same faces every game in defence and midfield. It would be good to mix it up a bit to at least give some of the senior off form players a kick up the back side and let some of the younger players get some minutes on the big stage (e.g.Garbutt, Browning, McCaleny, Atsu). I'm not saying they're better but the older players need to fight for their places. Too many walk into the starting XI regardless of form (and at times fitness!). E.g. Baines, Coleman and Barry have been really poor last few games.

One thing is clear - this weekend's game against QPR is massive and a lot more than 3 points is a stake. The crowd is going to go apeshit if we don't win (I think we will easily) and the added pressure on the manager and players will not bode well going into the xmas schedule if we don't get max points.

We need to maintain a good run in the league as winning a cup is a complete lottery.

We endured two full seasons carrying Tim Cahill whose time ran out. I dare say time is up for quite a few players but they all seem to have signed longer contracts keeping them around until they are pushing 40.

A four-year extension for Howard and putting Barry on a three-year deal looks a bit premature given their performances so far this season. So who are you kidding, Mr Martinez?

Good to see that Ross was influential and had a few of his 'surges' as you call them. Opta don't seem to record those unless they lead to a goal or assist but perhaps I'm looking in wrong place. Was he playing in a box to box midfield role ?