When I look at Ancelotti's track record, the number of times he has been sacked isn't the only thing that strikes me. How many times has he left a club in better shape than they were when he arrived? And has there ever been a manager who has inherited so many world class players?
Let's be fair here. Ancelotti has proven that, if you give him enough world-class players, he will deliver success... but, after that initial success, it never seems to end well.
He first came to my attention when I was watching my then weekly fix of Italian football. I remember thinking what a cool customer he was after it had been reported that the services of Roberto Baggio had been secured for him... but he turned his nose up. He didn't want him. I was gobsmacked. "Wow!" I thought, "This is a guy with too much talent on his hands."
In fairness, he did have people like Zola, Stoichkov, Chiesa and Crespo to fall back on if he needed a goal. However, he couldn't make the free-spirited Zola or Stoichkov fit into his rigid system and soon they were on their way. In the meantime, Baggio ran riot elsewhere. Ancelotti later admitted he had made a huge mistake... but, by then, everyone in Italy already knew it. He was sacked.
Ancelotti is one of those people who always comes up smelling of roses. Being sacked did not prevent him from landing the Milan gig. Once again, he was being asked to create a successful team, using some of the most gifted players on the planet. Pirlo. Rui Costa, Rivaldom Shevchenko, Kaka... At the back, he had what many believe to be the best back four ever assembled: Cafu, Costacurta, Nesta, Maldini. Throw in Gatusso and Clarence Seedorf.
Despite the galaxy of stars at his disposal, He could only watch as a Liverpool side which, on paper, didn't belong on the same pitch, overturned a 3-0 deficit to take the biggest prize. Yeah, he partially redeemed himself next time around, but for many Milan fans, it was no more than they expected.
Last time Ancelotti stepped foot inside Goodison Park, he was sacked before he could leave. Again, after inheriting a fantastic defence, marshalled by John Terry and guaranteed goals from Drogba and Lampard, he was deemed to have been found wanting. It was "goodnight" from Roman Abramovich.
As ever, our boy landed on his feet. Paris offered him another fortune to do what is known within the horse racing fraternity as a "steering job".
Next stop: Madrid. He really had to slum it this time. I mean, what is a coach supposed to do with no-hopers like Di Maria, Bale and Ronaldo? Once again, he was sacked. Surely that was the end for him??? Nope! The Germans had not had their turn yet.
It was widely reported that a delegation of Bayern Munich's senior pros called a meeting with the clubs hierarchy to tell them they simply could not work with this dinosaur... Carlo is sacked – again! The subsequent situation at Napoli has been well-documented and we all know how it ended, so I won't dwell.
It would be wrong to talk about this remarkable man and his remarkable career without talking about his high points too. The highs were really high and there were quite a few of them. That much has to be recognised; but is Ancelotti's star is on the slide? The big boys are no longer interested.
Duncan Ferguson has brought back to Everton that cant-wait-for-the-next-game feeling. The club is alive. The Old Lady is rocking again.
When Big Sam told us this week that he was given the go-ahead to sack Ferguson if he didn't like what he saw, but chose not to because he was so impressed by his intelligence and coaching ability. He was just the latest in a steady stream of in-the-know people laying waste to the ill-informed claim that Ferguson was "stealing a living".
The coaching staff love him. The players love him. The fans love him... People "stealing a living" don't get that sort of love and respect.
Of course, most of you will be aware that these unsubstantiated accusations are not reserved solely for Ferguson. It would appear that anyone who has played for the club is deemed to be "stealing a living" by a certain section of the fanbase. It as if being an Evertonian is a sin. Every one of them is tarred with the same brush as Kenwright. The club is rotten because some of the junior coaches once played for the club? You just couldn't make it up.
Everton's decline has nothing to do with ex-players; it has everything to do with the steady stream of outside mercenaries who have been paid fortunes to sign crap players and produce pug-ugly football.
The Big Yin has generated more passion and pride in a fortnight than Silva, Allardyce, Koeman and Martinez could muster between them in 5 years. Of course, passion and pride aren't enough – there has to be some tactical acumen. Otherwise, people recognised as top tacticians and bright young coaches (like Solskjaer, Lampard and Rodgers) would take him to the cleaners. They didn't.
Ferguson is ready to lead this great club forward and the overwhelming majority of the fanbase is ready to get behind him. He unites the club. Who knows how far he could take us? We'll never know if we don't give it a go...
I dread getting up to the news that Ancelotti has been confirmed as the new Everton boss. Him failing at Goodison is not simply a possibility; I believe it to be a certainty... a forgone conclusion.
If the guy struggles to make Stoichkov and Zola work, what earthly chance has he got of getting a tune out of our strike force? After working with the likes of Kaka, Zidane, and Ronaldo, what is he going to do with the lamentable Iwobi, Sigurdsson, Schneiderlin and Walcott?
After managing and often failing with some of the game's finest defenders, what would he be able to do with the woeful Mina and Keane? Get his son to coach them???
And does anybody really think the rich clubs are going to step aside and let us purchase all the top talent simply because we have a "proven winner"?
I pray tonight that somebody will stop this madness.
When you are trying to build a mansion, first, you have to buy the land; then you talk to an architect. You bring in the builders to lay the foundations and start the build. Then you get decorators in. After that, you may want to call an interior designer. Then, and only then, would you try to persuade a rich playboy to pay you a fortune to live in your mansion.
What you don't do, is squander all your capital from the get-go, by paying the playboy and his son a king's ransom to come and make a go of your building site.
Reader Comments (127)
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1 Posted 20/12/2019 at 04:54:18
Fantastic to have a juxtaposed view, Darren. I can't wait until Steve Ferns responds to the claims you've made. it will be some theatre. I don't have the corresponding "fact skills" to take on either of you in this case.
What I do have is an understanding of team building and creation, which doesn't happen overnight but does start with the first step. The art of putting a team together, strengths and weaknesses, abilities and strength of character, speed in positions and pure class at making a pass, amongst other attributes, matching the hard worker with the shear creator are all down to the manager/coach - whether high profile or amateur - they's the same but perhaps with significantly larger egos to handle in such as EPL.
One thing Ancelotti has demonstrated is the ability to bring the various players together to form a winning team - time and time again.
Big Dunc is a man for the future leadership of Everton. Certainly I agree with you about how he has created belief in the side and supporters. But, he himself, has stated that he is not ready to be the full time boss. Here is a man who understands his current place and knows where he wants to go. For him, learning under Ancelotti is like Arteta learning under Pep Guardiola!
2 Posted 20/12/2019 at 05:12:51
I pray youre wrong but suspect you arent.
I would give it to the Big Yin. He has demonstrated that he is tactically astute to compliment the fact the players and fans love and support him.
3 Posted 20/12/2019 at 05:14:21
Wow - when the UK gets up, you had better have your crash helmet ready.
Bob, its only 34c here in Victoria but forecast to get to more like 40c by 5pm. Stay safe.
4 Posted 20/12/2019 at 06:13:24
And as I don't (didn't until now, thanks Darren - It's all about perception and perspective, so I expect the same facts to be presented later in a better light) know much fact about the nuts and bolts of his career, except the bits I was exposed to via Chelsea, where I thought there might be extenuating circumstances, Terry, The Chairman etc. I'm not a 'believer' just at best 'agnostic'.
The more I think about it...not withstanding the worry that the Director of Football is being trumped (no impeachment available here) by the Owner in a Pre-Christmas...'and I bought for myself' vanity signing.
Then there's these rumours of Zlatan, yeah he could do a short term job and we've paid more for worse. But if it comes off, it really SCREAMS Vanity signing.
Most signings are a gamble. We maybe could've done with Ancelotti after Martinez's 1st season or even his last. Who knows.
I honestly don't know. How many expensive false dawns can this Club stand. I'm a true Doubting Thomas...I want to believe - But.
One game at a time.
5 Posted 20/12/2019 at 06:16:22
Just for the record, he didn't inherit all those great players on each of those clubs -- he attracted and brought in quite a few himself, and showed his eye for talent with some intelligent decisions. For example, when he arrived at Real Madrid he quickly dispatched the two overrated turds Ozil and Higuain, and with the money he brought in Bale. Worked out pretty good. CL title and the Copa Del Rey.
Yeah, he's got a pattern of either losing the dressing room or pissing off the owner after two seasons. But his clubs have a hell of a good time for those seasons. And as to your question "How many times has he left a club in better shape than they were when he arrived?", the answer is four of the last five. He took a Chelsea side that had finished third under Hiddink and lifted them to the title and then runnerup. PSG, Real Madrid and Napoli were all better off at the end of his tenure than the start. (Not Bayern.)
Naw, I won't be heartbroken if he doesn't come aboard -- I'd honestly be more excited about us taking a chance on a young up-and-comer as Arsenal is doing with Arteta -- but I think your dismissal of Ancelotti as an inevitable failure is just plain ridiculous.
As for Dunc, I know you have an affinity for the old Blues -- I believe you previously campaigned intensely for Rhino -- but I'm unconvinced. Only large doses of good luck and Pickford kept us from giving up five goals yesterday, not two. This is no job for a raw rookie with no managerial experience.
6 Posted 20/12/2019 at 06:19:48
As I quoted on here yesterday, a line from a Barney Ronay article that I couldnt help wholeheartedly agreeing with, it is ‘laughably optimistic to think Ancelotti will be successful at Everton,
This is happening though, so Ive been clutching at straws, trying to salvage some positivity by quoting the title of his autobiography ‘I Prefer the Cups.
But even if he delivers the FA Cup, which would be great, its a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a manager who isnt really a coach and who, infamously, conducts low intensity training sessions etc etc... Hes run out of super clubs to go to, but hes managed to find somewhere paying super club salaries.
It will be fun if we go crazy and buy players like Koulibaly, and a world class striker to go with it.
And, its going to be another learning experience for Big Dunc, the Ancelotti regime, and hell be there to pick up the pieces, hopefully.
7 Posted 20/12/2019 at 06:23:55
I liked Adelaide when I visited, especially the Cooper's!!
8 Posted 20/12/2019 at 06:51:18
Darren, I dont mind the sentiment behind the article but its about as balanced an elephant and a mouse on a see-saw!
You've treated the things hes won as a byline, an afterthought. Basically the players did it, and what, hes some overseer of stuff?
Whilst I recognize hes not a natural fit, and certainly hasnt worked at this rarefied level for some time he is very good at using what he has, the fact hes won at all types of clubs is testament to that.
He doesnt really have playing style either. He was sacked by Chelsea for not having a style. Both factors why it could work at Everton. We have players bought by several managers who played different styles.
Ferguson is simply unsustainable. I grant you he may evolve once he has time to work with the players and gets the squad healthy. But man cannot live on bread alone, and we cannot sustain on one mans passion for his club. Once we crash we will crash hard, such is the emotion Ferguson has imbued into the players.
They are all practically dead on their feet! Look I agree completely its was a joy to wake up and think fuck the blue boys are playing today and not immediately shrug...its intoxicating when everyone is unified. We are more than eleven players.
Look we have never gone big before, paid someone a fortune because they have seen and done it.
Its an opportunity that may never come again. Hes light years ahead of the candidates weve previously attracted
and thats to be applauded. Its a route weve never been down and for me its worth doing.
Keeping Duncan on and not neutering him could yield the best of both men.
Its been great to want to watch them again though, hasnt it?! 😃
9 Posted 20/12/2019 at 06:52:40
Seriously a very thought provoking article Darren, but like I have said many a time on here whether it be a player or a Manager, there is always an element of risk involved.
I was never an advocate of Koeman, Allardyce or Silva, and without appearing to be blowing a certain musical instrument, my trepidation has been severely and expensively damaging to the Club, proved to be founded.
Okay, Carlo has had a chequered history of either walking away, or being given the sack on several occasions, but it cannot be denied either that somewhere in between all this he has proved massively successful.
We never get to know what goes on at any Club behind the scenes, and are fed scraps of usually partially correct information, but never the true story.
I, for one think the combination of a successful Manager who HAS worked in the Premiership before, has a Trophy Cabinet that many could not emulate, working alongside Duncan who has Everton in his DNA, can't be a bad thing.
I also believe that once Carlo experiences the Everton factor and realises how starved we have been by poor investments and Managers over the years.
He will ' buy into it ' and give us fans, who are the only ones that have kept their part, and more, of an unwritten Contract with the Club, what we have craved for so long; - sustained success!
10 Posted 20/12/2019 at 06:53:27
If we destabilise the momentum Big Dunc has created in the last couple of weeks it could be catastrophic. Everton are still built on old fashioned values, we do need to transform but the decisions have to be timed extremely well and based on where the club is right now.
11 Posted 20/12/2019 at 07:33:01
As for Ancelotti, Im probably not as informed and whilst I see him coming up smelling of roses like you say I dont recall any players slagging him off. In respect of his sackings, I suspect every club he has been sacked at you will find seldomly find ever keeps a manager beyond a season or two so I dont read too much into that.
From the outside seems like he was a great player, even better manager and his record is unbelievable. He seems astute, intelligent and articulate and has been there and worn the t-shirt.
I see his appointment as a real coup. Every man and his dog can see that he has never managed a team with players of quality we have (by that I mean lack of) and that will be the acid test. But to say dont get him because of that, get Ferguson in who has 3 games experience I dont get. We have been down the route of managers 4/5 times now of having worked with players who are not of same quality.
Im optimistic, I think the appointment says we wont settle for second best, Moshiri hasnt given up (I think the rest of us have to be honest) hes determined to get us back to the top and will back Brands / his manager to do this with serious money.
12 Posted 20/12/2019 at 07:40:04
Duncan Ferguson should a least be given to the end of the Season.
It would be better that Moshiri took the decision to sell his shares in the Club, hopefully followed by Kenwright , if he decides to appoint Ancelotti as Manager.
13 Posted 20/12/2019 at 08:01:03
("Deadheads" should geddit, btw...)
I'm ambivalent about Carlo Ancelotti coming in, unless the appointment is made with the express understanding of all involved that Duncan Ferguson is retained as an integral part of the first team squad coaching set-up - with a view to him taking over from Carlo as manager at some future point - hopefully as Carlo retires after overseeing some incoming silverware and (at least) establishing our club as a regular top 4 EPL team.
In the meantime, let's all get behind whoever is managing our squad and look forward to winning ways. It's gonna be a long, strange trip...…...
14 Posted 20/12/2019 at 08:06:33
15 Posted 20/12/2019 at 08:36:32
16 Posted 20/12/2019 at 08:37:35
Ferguson has been wonderful but he has shown a bit of the Everton disease by failing to push himself for the permanent managers position, content it seems to play second fiddle.
We need to take a huge leap if were going to break our decades long mediocrity. Ancelotti, if he arrives, would be such a leap, with all of the attendant risk.
17 Posted 20/12/2019 at 08:39:02
We are handing the keys of a busted up ford escort to Ancelotti who's used to gleaming Ferraris. Duncan Ferguson deserves the rest of the season. Going to old Trafford with that depleted squad and getting a result was stunning everything about him has got the whole club buzzing.
He's the right man at the right time to fire us up and rebuild. Ancelotti will prove to be an expensive mistake, would love to be proved wrong though.
18 Posted 20/12/2019 at 08:49:18
19 Posted 20/12/2019 at 08:55:39
I'm with Peter Warren on this.
20 Posted 20/12/2019 at 08:59:28
I love seeing Big Dunc on the touchline, and it is nice to see his reputation as a kind of token blue member of staff finally, a rightfully, debunked.
But in my opinion this is too big a job for him. And whilst there is reason for caution with Ancelotti, there is much reason for optimism.
His teams have always played great football, and this is something us as evertonians want. We will only accept long ball and passion for so long.
He will be able to attract players of greater quality, and I'm sure his arrival has come with the stipulation of money to spend.
He knows the game inside out, and there is something about having a serial winner that is intriguing. We crave silverware, and silverware is in this man's DNA.
His wages may be big, but his 4 year contract costs less than we spent on Iwobi and Kean, so it is a gamble worth taking (we paid how much to Allardyce for his 6 months of pain).
And fundamentally, it could signal a culture change at the club. We are perrenial losers, battlers, always looking at excuses. Ancelotti will not abide this mentality.
If we hired Ferguson. Or anyone else linked with the job, finishing 10-7th would be seen as good job. Ancelotti will push that ambition higher.
21 Posted 20/12/2019 at 09:28:14
22 Posted 20/12/2019 at 09:35:38
The big bonus is that we have unearthed a manager with enormous potential for the future from our own ranks in Duncan Ferguson, hopefully he can learn a a lot and take over with confidence, when the time comes, in a much more secure environment for the club.
23 Posted 20/12/2019 at 09:40:43
What I do know is, Liverpool supporters appear to be fretting about the prospect of Ancellotti coming here. And many neutral commentators are comparing it to Klopp joining Liverpool. It's certain to raise the profile of Everton, or the 'brand' in modern parlance. I thought that was one of the things we wanted, if only for the purpose of attracting better players.
So overall, I think it's a risk worth taking.
24 Posted 20/12/2019 at 10:05:26
It wasnt that long ago that you were banging the drum for David Unsworth to get the job full time, now you try and do a hatchet job on one of the worlds top managers. Duncan Ferguson has done a terrific job but he himself said he is not ready yet to be the full time manager at Everton. So we have to respect what Duncan says and look for a permanent manager.
Your piece isn't new or original as I have read a lot of pundits say he is not the right fit for Everton, so who is the right fit. I have watched this club for decades miss out on the very best managers, Clough, Revie, Robson to name but 3. So for the first time in our history we appoint one of the worlds best and you and others want to pour cold water on the appointment before the guy has even arrived. I am sure he has sought assurances as to what his transfer budjet will be, and you say he is only good at working with top players. So although this group is many steps down from the quality he is used to working with, I am sure that he will attract better players than any of our last lot of managers.
So lets see what he does over the next 2/3 years before we start sticking the knives in, he may well surprise you. I see many who have already posted and agree with you live thousands of miles away so there negativity wont be anywhere near Goodison when Carlo arrives thank goodness for that.
25 Posted 20/12/2019 at 10:22:31
26 Posted 20/12/2019 at 10:29:59
Dunc will take over in three years Im sure of that!
Hes clearly managerial material and many, myself included, doubted the mans input at the club but now we have seen it clearly what he offers.
As for Carlo Ancelotti?
Who knows how it will go here, only time will tell.
Hes clearly worked with big players on the biggest stage on a yearly basis but theres no doubts whatsoever that this will be a very eye opening experience for him.
I hope Carlo is fully prepared for a whole new ball game when he starts managing Everton Football Club, because it will be nothing like hes been used to before.
27 Posted 20/12/2019 at 10:31:16
We've spent the last few years spending daft amounts of money on players, while spending a fraction of that on managers that have performed poorly and/or been hindered by a club set in its mediocre ways.
My guess is that Moshiri is thinking why not lash out on a respected and revered manager who attracts better players and use it to give the club a collective kick up the arse?
Two reservations about Ancelotti for me. First, is he past his best? Second, will things be held back by those in and around the club who like things as they are, who are fearful of the demands of ambition and success, who will start calling Ancelotti 'arrogant' and 'not one of us' the first chance they get.
This club needs a wrecking ball to shake it into this century. The first one didnt work. I'm hoping Moshiri has more clout and willingness to try a second one and make it work. I'm hoping than unlike Koeman, this wrecking ball will hit the right target.
It's gonna be interesting.
28 Posted 20/12/2019 at 10:47:56
Stan@23 you and I are likely close to the same age. I think we are also on the same page on this subject.
29 Posted 20/12/2019 at 10:54:39
In the whole football world you can count with your fingers managers who would want out, as that would be a complete miss for the manager in itself.
Of course there are the successful ones, who move to the next level by signing for bigger clubs, but how many are currently out there? I have a theory that managers, and players btw, are as good to a club as much as others would want them, and when they stop wanting them...
I think daniel levy's recent comments on mourinho's tenure and about continental clubs and the longevity of their managers really says it all.
I'm not in ancelotti's camp, but arguing about the logical thoughts put out in the article. IMHO It's what managers do at "their club" that define's them, and the article may have a point there, but I would do him justice, and argue though, that while ancelotti had the mentioned players, juventus had del piero, Ibrahimovic, deschamps, zidane and many others, Inter had ronaldo, vieri and many other world class players, so he still had a tough nut to crack in italy.
So my doubts about carlo(as with any other manager) are simple and straight forward: has he turn some average players into world beaters? has he found under the radar gems? has he revealled any youngsters? has he excelled the quality of his teams? or the money spent on transfers to bring success to his club? I believe it isn't all about success; Sir Bobby never won the league with Ipswich, and people still talk about that team.
It seems to me that any high profile manager would have a bit of stick, by some fraction of evertonians, either it's because they aren't used to it, or, as it seems more likely to me, ever since moshiri came with his money, many assumed that a new era was at dawn, granted on the financial muscle, but based on astute recruiting of players and managers, In fact I believe many of you here would of liked a building strategy, scratched from the ground, without fancy players and managers, but with working class heroes, local boys, and all english (or british) talents, without association to regional rivals (no red rejects or former mancs), players who revealed themselves, on the holly ground of goodison, as the modern trinity, with the guy who was a self made men, in the managers seat, a moses; revealling himself to the world of football as the new special one.
So when a few young non-fashionable, but still reputed, footballers arrived, along with the high promissing young managers, it was all evertonians wanted wasn't it? of course it wouldn't be rotterdam's all british eleven, but it was as good as it would in the modern era footie.
How has that pan out?
I can understand the charm of it all, and wonder if this is a scouse thing? or just the Everton way? well I ain't scouse, or am I? sometimes I think I must have played for Everton in another life, and I (scouse or not) would jump right to the glamour of it all, even the all brit non-sense, but now, with the prospect of BMD, I would demand us to do a "chelski" or "ettihad" and couldn't care a f.. if it's moshiri, usmanov or billy bob, so I still find myself pretty much dreaming but don't wanna wake up.
30 Posted 20/12/2019 at 11:08:01
What your article does add weight to is My hope that Ancellotti + Ferguson really could add up to something inspiring for us Blues.
Ancellotti has won stacks of silver during his career. Putting it into a selected context:
Carlo Ancellotti has won more silverware as a manager than Everton FC have in their entire history.
31 Posted 20/12/2019 at 11:34:28
Managers don't have to be fans, or extroverts, but it helps. Harry Catterick, possibly our most successful manager was almost contemptuous of enthusiasm, but it's so good to see Ferguson hugging ballboys when we score.
I'm not sure I want another elegant, continental with little connection to the fans running our team.
32 Posted 20/12/2019 at 11:35:48
Moyes, Martinez, Koeman, Unsworth, Allardyce, Silva - Ancelloti. If he comes that represents a huge change in my opinion and I am 100% behind this appointment.
33 Posted 20/12/2019 at 11:45:42
1: he never over achieved anywhere. At all clubs he was at, he was fully expected to win the league + cups. Anything less at clubs like Bayern, Real, PSG is considered total failure. The time when he was at Napoli, it didn't go well and he couldn't show anything to indicate that he could challenge seriously.
2: The club has gone in recently in the direction of buying younger players with potential improvement and resale value. Managers such as Silva were expected to develop and grow such talent. He will not have the time or interest, he will want players for the here and now. I would expect to see a host of 28+ year olds sign on huge wages and be near impossible to shift such as some Koeman/ Sam signings.
3: He will inevitably leave the club inside of 3 years, in a terrible shape, overage players the next manager will not want, Brands will probably be a casualty of his appointment, Moshiri would have burnt his hands again after sanctioning the expected transfer splurge that will be flushed down the toilet again. I fear this would make him lose interest in the club permanently.
34 Posted 20/12/2019 at 11:52:02
35 Posted 20/12/2019 at 11:59:36
ToffeeWeb: This is bad news, all his best work is behind him, he's too old, not an 'Everton' appointment, has no connection with the club, has no Premier League experience, won't play/improve the young players, not passionate enough
*Delete where applicable.
36 Posted 20/12/2019 at 12:13:43
37 Posted 20/12/2019 at 12:18:16
Ancelotti is a fantastic, flexible tactician. Hes won it all and is a good motivator by most accounts. I should think most of our players will be excited to work with such a prestigious winner.
My concerns are more with the coaching and recruitment. Will he and his team have the hunger, attention to detail and philosophy to improve our players over a long period. I gather a lot of the Bayern players turned on him as they thought his sessions lacked intensity. The only way we begin to really challenge I believe is if our decent young players (Richarlison, Davies, Holgate, Mina, Calvert-Lewin, Iwobi, Kean etc) improve to a higher, consistent level over the next few years.
As for recruitment who will lead it?
As John@33 says this all becomes purgatory if we buy a bunch of ‘experienced expensive 27-31 year olds on big contracts who we cant get rid of if Ancellotti doesnt work out (see Bolasie, Schneiderlin, etc).
Im also not convinced Duncan is a long term option, and nor is he. Though if we beat Arsenal his stint will look very impressive. Hes certainly not short on passion but Im not sure that alone sustains a team (though it will be missed when gone); whether he has the tactical nous required Im not sure. If you could take the best of Ancelloti and Ferguson combined youd have something pretty good I reckon.
Time will tell. I find myself jealous of Arsenal though Arteta is a huge risk. Ancellotti is one the biggest winners there is so his time will at least settle the question over whether that history is what weve been missing as many have felt. Lets see.
38 Posted 20/12/2019 at 12:18:56
Exactly that. ToffeeWeb is brilliant, and I love the people who come on here, but a large proportion of supporters are looking for a manager that simply doesn't exist.
They want some form of perceived perfection. Ancelotti is one of the best managers in world football. End of story. If you're not happy with him, you might as well pack it in.
39 Posted 20/12/2019 at 12:19:31
John Zapa- What I find incredible is the immeasurable hypocrisy of some Twebbers. I really liked the signings and policy the club adopted last year under Brands which outlined a template for future success similar to what Leicester are achieving. This year I was highly critical of the work done in the summer as I seen the train crash coming yet I was continually being challenged by the 'in Brands we trust' brigade who have behaved like he is the messiah and is the best thing to happen to our great club.
Now we have had a predictably self destructive campaign Moshiri it seems has given up on his blueprint yet again and gone back to a much more decorated Koeman scenario. Why aren't the Brands lovers up in arms? Ancelotti is not a head coach, he is a manager who has always dictated transfer policy and has always favoured the tried and tested over the up and coming. His appointment will ultimately make Brands role defunct. Are they furious? No Brands has been forgotten eclipsed by Carlos medals.
Moshiri has behaved like a 3am curb crawler trying to desperately find glory switching from brunette to blonde, from young to old rather than putting the hard yards in for the entire evening if he wanted his princess and a clear idea of what she must be.
It seems our fan base love Carlos medal hall so much that that they don't envisage the realities that will be coming their way as Darren has outlined with regards to the passion and excitement big Dunc has engineered. Carlos teams are not renowned for their intensity.
Those of you counting Ancelottis medals will soon forget them as he walks through the door as Utd fans did with Van Gaal and Mourinho. Will he make Iwobi stop putting the ball 20 yards over from 8 yards out or help Keane to turn on a sixpence.
He is a great of the game but the presumption that he will be filling up his trophy cabinet here is fanciful considering he has just taken a much better squad who came within whiskers of the title to also rans. I hope he succeeds but it is a big leap of faith to expect what many are claiming.
40 Posted 20/12/2019 at 12:24:22
41 Posted 20/12/2019 at 12:49:55
Duncan has been a breath of fresh air, but I doubt he is the long term answer to the managers job,Ancelotti gives me more hope, stressing hope, than the previous managers who have followed Moyes, he has the ability to point us upwards in the next three seasons with Usmanov joining his messenger and providing much more financial strength to achieving more than just stability but trophies, but again there are no guarantees in football as in other walks of life.
42 Posted 20/12/2019 at 12:52:44
That being said, I think if I was going to spend a lot of money on players, then I would want someone who was a proven top manager to take charge of them for a multitude of reasons. If you had spent a lot of money buying a business, wouldn't you want someone experienced in charge of it?
As for Duncan Ferguson, I think he'll make a great coach one day. He has passion and great technical ability. The only thing he needs to develop is man management, and hopefully that will come in time. I guess he needs to keep learning more at Everton, and then when the right club comes along for him, then he can take the step up to the next level at a club in the lower leagues. There is the possibility of him taking over at Everton one day, I suppose, but I would have thought that would be difficult to do with the increasing professionalism of clubs these days, without proving himself somewhere else first.
43 Posted 20/12/2019 at 12:58:21
We could lose most weeks as long as they run about a lot.
44 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:02:04
45 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:12:10
However, given the last five years and the catostrophic errors of the leadership at the club, it's little wonder that we are so sceptical or even downright frightened of what may happen in the next few months, years.
Unfortunately the current squad is as average as it was five years ago, with a couple of exceptions. Good players make good teams, and without them, most managers are on a hiding to nothing.
Silva in retrospect, was probably undermined during the last summer window, unable to get the key players in the key positions which he may have wanted. Then he either spat his dummy out and lost his enthusiasm or he wasn't capable of establishing the necessary team spirit that a below standard squad requires to achieve results.
Wayne Rooney has loads of medals as has Phil Neville but both players were unlikely to add to their collection during their spells at Goodison, of course players are different to managers, but it proves that their CVs counted for little when they pulled on a Blue shirt.
We can only hope that it is not a vanity appointment by and for Mr Moshiri. as most of the media are portraying it, although Phil McNulty and a couple of others have pushed back at that narrative in the last couple of days.
I'll do what most of us will probably do, be hopeful that the club have found someone to set it on the road to recovery and later success, but with the usual apprehensiveness that the Everton experience has made necessary.
What I would hope to see from Carlo, is a change of mindset at the club, the realisation that a couple of good performances and results do not a good team make, that consistency of performance game after game, month after month is the only way to achieve anything of merit.
Another interesting adventure awaits us but whether Darren is proved right or wrong will only be seen after a significant period of time. I hope Darren has judged it completely wrong and I'm certain deep down, he hopes so too, but if Darren is correct at least Duncan will still be there to pick up the pieces.
46 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:17:04
"Him failing at Goodison is not simply a possibility; I believe it to be a certainty... a forgone conclusion".
So in fairness, so that we can judge that prediction at some future date, what exactly would count as "failing", and when? What would count as not failing, and when? If there's no benchmark for failure / success, it's a pretty empty prediction. Without anything specific about that, it would be all too easy to turn round and say "I told you so".
47 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:18:41
If we sign some world class players his appointment might pay off, but if we don't anything can happen!
I've banged on for years that our main problem is more to do with the quality of our players than it has to do with our managers.
Yes there are good and not so good managers, but if they haven't enough quality to pick from they are going to struggle whoever they may be.
The reason we are stuck as plucky losers, is simply we cant keep hold on to our best players and also cant attract elite ones.
I too think Dunc. can do a perfectly good job as our manager if he wanted it, but as I said before maybe Carlo can attract and keep elite players, which I believe is the only way we are going to become a regular top 6 side. With that in mind its worth try.
48 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:18:49
" Evertons board, players, staff and fans should embrace the appointment of a winner, grab it with both hands, use it to create a togetherness, and a single vision and the moment to move away from the mediocrity of recent years. Ancelotti can be the catalyst for change, finally"
49 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:21:45
50 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:22:47
A cautious view as ever, Dave. With any appointment we can only hope, and not be certain.
You should go to the Pure Stadium tonight, Dave. That drink is still on offer!
51 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:23:33
As regards to the short tenure of some of Carlo's previous clubs- it has been very common in Spain and Italy to dispense of the coach after a couple of years especially considering the ego maniacs owning the top clubs.
Indeed Engand is rapidly following suit. There are no guarantees in football as we have seen with supposedly good coaches regularly given the boot after winning promotions or in Ranieri's case the PL.
I think we should have some hope for the furure because Ancellotti has won things, and hopefully his success will rub off on our lads.
As fro Duncan, I love him, and perhaps this was a good audition for the future.
52 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:23:59
53 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:29:22
Can Ancelotti turn Keane into a better player? I doubt anyone can. What Ancelotti can do is help persuade a better defender (one who can defend properly) to come to us. Keane then becomes irrelevant.
Will DCL, Davies, Holgate etc fit in with Ancelotti? If they play to his standards (and to be fair they've stepped up enormously in the last three games) they will. If not, they will be replaced.
I cannot see Brands changing his approach to signing younger players who can develop. I see this continuing. What I also see is those players being complemented by some signings of more established players with a higher level of performance - i.e. the opposite to Schneiderlin, Walcott, Siggy, Tosun etc...
Ferguson has stated he doesn't feel ready yet. I think he's being modest. I'd be very happy for him to continue to be honest. I love the guy and his love for Everton.
What I would prefer is to see Ferguson take over the team when it is in a better space than we currently are in. The guy deserves a chance in the future and what better way than to groom him with one of footballs finest managers.
54 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:31:49
Bob #1, I have different reservations to Darren, but reservations nonetheless. You mistake my looking for the positives in our next manager as total support. And let's make no mistake about this, Ancelotti is our next manager, no one is going to answer Darren's pray and stop this madness.
Darren, I do think you have misrepresented a lot of things here, touched on by Mike Gaynes. Ancelotti was a success at Parma. Ancelotti brought through exciting young players like Gigi Buffon, Fabio Canavaro, Enrico Chiesa and Hernan Crespo, whilst easing out an aging Stoichkov and he could not accommodate Zola in his rigid system. Why was Ancelotti a success at Parma, because he took them to their highest ever League position of SECOND. Remember Ancelotti can only do it in the cups? Well here he was taking Parma to the top 2 in the top flight for the ONLY time in their history. They have never bettered 4th since.
Ancelotti did so well at Parma that he got the Juventus job. You know the most successful club Italy has ever seen. Juve had been reigning champions but sacked Lippi as they were having a terrible season. They had Zidane and learning from the Baggio / Zola mistake, Ancelotti ditched his rigid 442. Remember Ancelotti was a world class player, who was prominent under one of the pioneers of football, Ariggo Sacchi. Sacchi left a big mark on Ancelotti and so he copied his tactics, and did so with success at Parma but he learnt to evolve and adapt them at Juve to incorporate Zidane, who Lippi had struggled to build a team around. His first proper season he was second again, by a single point. Then he was sacked for finishing second a third time (for him and a second with Juventus) as not winning the league for two seasons is a sackable offence for Juve.
Next he went to AC Milan. The side where he enjoyed so much success under Sacchi. Milan were in decline and had won nothing for a few years. Ancelotti turned them around and won the League, the Cup, TWO CHAMPIONS LEAGUES, 2 European Super Cups, and the World Club Cup. This was not a team that he inherited that was doing well, this was a Milan in a mess and he came in, sorted it out, knocked Lippi's Juventus (as Lippi got the job back off Ancelotti) off their perch and then conquered Europe, getting to 3 Champions League Finals in 4 seasons.
We all know about Chelsea, for sure. But I think some of you forget the mess that they were in. Mourinho was sacked, then Avram Grant came in, then the disaster that was Phil Scolari and then old Guus Hiddink had steadied the ship and left them in a good position having won the FA Cup. Chelsea didn't want Hiddink, they wanted the best and they hung on for Ancelotti. Ancelotti won the double with Chelsea don't forget.
At PSG he won the league in his only full season and got PSG to the QF of the CL. They have still never been further. He left to take over at Real Madrid.
Real Madrid had just sacked Mourinho. Real were desperate for the "Decima". Their 10th Champions League. The Decima was a big thing as Madrid had gone 12 seasons without winning the Champions League and it was seen a hurdle no one could get across. So after getting Mourinho in, as the man most likely to win them the Champions League, and him failing, they turned to the next man most likely to deliver the Decima. In came Ancelotti and he delivered the Champions League in his first season. He won 4 trophies in 2014 (UCL, CWC, ESC, Spanish Cup). Real Madrid lauded Ancelotti for winning them the Decima and after winning this then focussed on their failure to win the League, and after he didn't, he was sacked.
At Bayern he did the double in his first season. He was then sacked after a players revolt in his second season with the players, he was gone. The revolt was led by Arjen Robben. The complaints centred around the fitness coaching. Note that since then Giovanni Mauri, Carlo Ancelotti's long term fitness coach retired and his son Francesco Mauri has taken over as main fitness coach for Ancelotti. Now if you think Giovanni is crap, read this Link and google him, he has a long list of plaudits.
I've addressed the Napoli issues elsewhere. In a nutshell, the Napoli President is a complete nutcase and he took on the players and Ancelotti was caught in the middle and paid the price for not choosing his boss's side.
I believe that Everton need a Pochettino type to take us back to the top. I believed, and still do, that Silva can be such a man. Silva is not the man for Everton, but that does not mean we cannot go and find someone who can do everything Silva was meant to do, and has none of his flaws. I thought that man might be Leo Jardim of Monaco (back in the firing line at Monaco and unlikely to resist an approach from Everton to take him). If not Jardim, then Gallardo could also fit the bill. Sam Hoare had a list of German candidates in the similar mould. The best of whom is leading the Bundesliga and probably out of grasp, Julien Nagelsmann, who I wanted ahead of Silva and we could have got him 18 months ago.
This type of manager is a young coach, someone hands on. A man who breaks everything down and runs through every conceivable scenario and tries to educate the players on how to think. Players like Iwobi appear to be braindead, and so a manager is to program into thinking the way he wants them to. Experienced players do not appreciate this type of coach, unless they are of a lower level and willing to learn as they step up to the next level. So, the likes of Schneiderlin and Sigurdsson, are likely to unwilling to "buy in".
Ancelotti is the complete opposite. He is hands-off. He does not want to teach the players how to think. He thinks the players already know how to think as they are elite professionals (or so the players he usually coaches are) and he allows them to come up with solutions for themselves. This is an approach favoured by Arsene Wenger. Even Sam Allardyce, was halfway there. He drilled the defensive side of the game, and said figure it out for yourselves in attack.
Everton had been decent under Silva when playing in pre-programmed ways. Breaking at speed, closing down, cutting off passing lanes and preventing chances. When Everton have struggled it's when they have the ball and they have to think for themselves. When the coach cannot programme them to do something.
for example, the team can run lots of drills about breaking up the pitch and sending the ball left and right, running to certain places and so when we break at speed, you should have certain players pop up in certain positions and they should be ready to do what they did in training. Conversely, it is difficult to give a player a solution of what to do when the opponent has 10 men behind the ball. They can work extensively on this, by running drills where you have 4 or 5 players trying to break through 10 or more defenders. But usually it's about close control, and working on making sure the ball never stops moving, and making it move at speed. And yet, our players slow it to walking pace and then put their foot on the ball. In other words, when they have had to think, they fail to have a solution.
So this gives me concerns about how Ancelotti can take Everton to where we want to be. Those concerns would be alleviated with the acquisition of competent coaches who can be hands-on, that can educate the players to think. Or, if as is more likely, we just go out and spend a fortune signing players who have the quality already to do this. And so, this is why Ancelotti prefers older players.
I disagree that Ancelotti is destined to be a failure. I think he can be, and probably will be a success. The question though is, what is success for the three time Champions League Winner, reportedly one of the highest paid managers in world football? I don't think success will be 8th, not next season anyway, and it probably won't be anything less than 4th.
What I expect from Ancelotti is immediate impact. He is great at that. He can see what a team is doing, and can make subtle adjustments and make them better. there is, probably, no one better in world football at that, which is why he has so much success. His in game management is second to none. Which is why he is excellent in the cups. In a one-off game he will outthink his opponent. sustaining success over a league campaign requires a bit more on the training pitch and that's why we need a world class coach to go with our world class manager.
I cannot see Ancelotti coming in and spending less than £50m in January. I cannot see him spending less than £200m in the summer. We will spend money. Between him and Brands, we should expect quality players, and so I cannot see how Ancelotti, to go back to Darren's words, is a forgone conclusion to fail. I do think he's right man, wrong time. And I agree with many people who say he's the man you get after Pochettino, and we need a Pochettino. We're not getting Pochettino, or Jardim, or Nagelsmann, or Rose, or Gallardo, or any other man who might be better suited.
Ancelotti will be the manager. It can work. And we need to get behind him and demand that the club give him everything he needs to make it work.
55 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:35:07
DF has really impressed me in the short time he has been given and he has united us all again. However, he has stated he does think he is ready, maybe he will be after two years with a top manager to work with.
I still hate to see Sam's name mentioned on these pages, He should be the relative you never mention in polite conversation. His claim he was given permission to get rid of DF is laughable.
56 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:47:36
57 Posted 20/12/2019 at 13:48:34
One of the worst to have the misfortune to have been published on here.
58 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:02:05
There is a lot of truth in all you say, but its what you dont say that puts me more in the Mike Gaynes camp: Carlos CV is mightily impressive and I just dont see failure as inevitable. My biggest reservation is whether he still has the hunger to add to that CV.
Steve Ferns has articulated the case for a precisely a hungry, younger coach and mentioned several interesting names. Ill admit that I have been pleasantly surprised by Duncan and were it not for his own reluctance Id be banging the drum for him. I mentioned previously on TW that my own preference is Tim Cahill, of whom Humphrey Bogart almost said, “Badges? Badges? I dont need no stinkin badges!” In other words, Tim will get his qualifications soon enough but it would be great to have him around the club now.
There is an interesting article by Barney Ronay in todays Guardian, the gist of which is that Everton and Arsenal may have got the right two managers but in the wrong order. This complements the Ferns view that a more dynamic guy with everything to prove is the better fit.
In the end though Darrens article demonstrates that appointing any manager is an inexact science and we can all conjecture as much as we want but none of us knows how it will work out. For the sake of all TWers and especially younger Blues lets all hope that Carlo turns out to be an inspired appointment.
59 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:23:16
I think in our (Paul Tran and I) discussion with the Esk last night on twitter, the Esk likened Moshiri's approach to a gambler doubling down on his loss. And like a gambler doubling down on a big loss, failure can be utter disaster. I would say though, I would expect that if Koeman type scenario repeats, Moshiri will not be quick to sack, instead he will give Koeman / Ancelotti every chance to turn it around.
Ancelotti will be the next manager, and we cannot allow it to fail, no matter how bad it gets we cannot call for his head, we cannot make Goodison a toxic place to play football, because we cannot afford the bill to sack him.
60 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:31:44
I will just make the following general observation.
Some pine for a return to the past, or a continuation of the 'known'. Some reference that only ex-Everton players have ever won trophies as Everton managers, the last being Joe Royle 24 - nearly 25 - years ago.
I myself have strongly acknowledged and praised Duncan Ferguson after just one game, never mind the three he has overseen. As the current incumbent his claim of ex-player to be the Everton manager is the strongest of all.
Since Joe Royle, here is a list of just some ex-Everton players who moved into management, or at bare minimum, into coaching
And I'm sure there's more.
Pretty much every single one of those would, I believe, be a HUGELY underwhelming appointment.
If we are to ever again put silverware in our trophy cabinet, there are exceedingly slim pickings out there to believe it will only happen under the stewardship of an ex-Everton player.
Absolutely no appointment, be it the manager or a player, comes with gilt edged guarantee of success. But some come with a greater likelihood of being successful based on their history and consistency over many seasons.
I eagerly await the board's announcement as to who indeed will be our next permanent manager. It needs to be a very good one.
61 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:36:33
62 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:39:02
63 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:39:58
I wonder if both teams' future managers will be passive participants in the crowd for Saturday's lunch time KO?
Another historical Everton first if so!
64 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:42:29
65 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:42:37
Martinez - no
Koeman - no
Allardyce - no
Silva - no
Ancelotti - ??
God help us if people don't want Carlo Ancelotti as manager of Everton! You may have noticed, we're fucking shite.
66 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:44:20
67 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:45:21
68 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:47:30
Another burst of manic laughter!
69 Posted 20/12/2019 at 14:52:39
Whatever the decision is regarding the next manager, it will be a gamble. Moshiri has gone for a big bet at short odds. He wants the glory as much as the money and for that, I take my hat off to him.
70 Posted 20/12/2019 at 15:20:48
Duncan Ferguson has done a great job, brought back our spirit, and spoke loads of sense, when he said Everton need the best manager in the world, especially because he wants to learn off him, and eventually become the manager of the club he loves, if everything turns out alright and he learns loads off Ancelloti?
Most things are rumours, but if Usmanov was in that meeting the other day, Im sure he will have been telling his accountant to keep an eye on the figures, even if money is no option to the boss?
71 Posted 20/12/2019 at 15:34:05
You argue Ancelotti will just replace Keane, well he has about fifteen others as well that aren't good enough so Moshiri will need deep pockets. But you also feel Brands is going to continue to develop young talent? You really think Ancelotti will be coming here to work with players who won't be ready for a couple of seasons? If Ancelotti comes he will not be accepting some of the stuff Silva had to this summer he will demand control as he'll want instant results. Brands will be reduced to a negotiations role for Ancelottis desires.
Gerard 58- Barney must have been reading Tweb yesterday as I was stating that very argument. I'm truly gutted Arteta is confirmed at Arsenal.
72 Posted 20/12/2019 at 15:39:53
"Different teams have expressed interest. To be honest I want to thank them [Everton and others] for wanting me and I told them that I wanted to be quiet, that I need to take a little bit of air. And to choose well the next project after many years of not stopping."
73 Posted 20/12/2019 at 15:46:58
I would like to think that Brands and co were in the process of drawing up a contingency plan if they sacked Silva, and that events following the training ground incident were such that everyone knew the writing was on the wall for Ancelotti. I would expect that we'd lined him up before he was sacked.
But nethertheless, it appears we spoke to Emery, Pereira and others, even if we only ever wanted Ancelotti.
74 Posted 20/12/2019 at 15:58:51
I don't think it was headless chickens running around in the wake of the Derby loss as some derided the club. The rumours of a Moyes return, or a Mark Hughes appointment, were typical tabloid fabrications.
That managers of the quality of Pochettino, Emery and Ancelotti were suddenly available to us AND that the club evidently approached them I personally find encouraging on two levels:
1) their obvious qualities well above the type of manager we have recruited in recent years
2) that the board were thinking big and long-term and not considering a 'meh' short term caretaker appointment for this season only with the remit of avoiding relegation
Still, I'm keeping mum until the coronation of the new manager is confirmed.
This is Everton, after all!
75 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:02:03
What's to say Brands wasn't moving to secure Ancelotti, but had Moyes as his fail safe?
76 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:06:45
What were the fireworks on Nov 5 you mentioned?
77 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:11:46
Only one person would be promoting that solution, and that if either or both Moshiri and Brands were giving serious consideration to the return of the no-longer-red-haired-one on the word of the dewy-eyed-one, then they really know or understand NOTHING about Everton and how his return would be received by the overwhelming majority of Blues, as confirmed by TW's poll and similar polls on t'net.
78 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:13:58
Most sports journalists clearly have a view that Everton is a small-time, small-minded club. That's why they pushed the Moyes line so strongly. I suspect if we'd got Arteta, he would have been preceived as a risk. Now Arsenal have him, it's a bold, exciting appointment. Similarly, us getting Ancelotti is strange, or a panic move, whereas for Arsenal, he would be perceived as a perfect fit.
Fair play to Martin Samuel & Henry Winter for bucking the trend. They and I see this as a serious appointment by an ambitious owner.
79 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:14:20
Gerard #58, Cahill is around, or was at last report -- I read somewhere back in October that he was at Finch Farm working on his badge qualifications.
Jay #61, according to several articles I read last week -- most notably Laurens at ESPNFC -- Arsenal was never the slightest bit interested in Ancelotti, and the rumors were baseless.
80 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:15:43
81 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:22:38
James Horncastle Link
Gabriel Marcotti: Link
These are two of the best English speaking journalists on Serie A and even though I don't watch much of Serie A, I like to keep abreast of their work as there's always something hilarious going on.
Remember, Napoli could easily have carried on with Gattuso, then decided to fire him. Italy is different, they don't then go and hire a third manager, often they go back to the first manager, and so back in would come Ancelotti. Then they could fire him again! One guy was fired three times in one season by the same club. And this is why we still have to pay compensation.
82 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:24:16
83 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:25:51
84 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:31:04
85 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:33:27
Howd you know where I live?
A lot of assumptions in your highly original response. I can tell you its definitely less than 100 miles away from Goodison, so Im afraid my negativity could be responsible for destabilising the whole Ancelotti project.
You left Arteta off that list, he could still come to us in a few years. You also left
Duncan Ferguson and Tim Cahill off that list, both are keen to be managers one day, and really, these three names and the only ones were interested in.
86 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:35:19
Bill - We're not going to give it to you Davey,
Moyes - Is it Eddie Howe?
Bill - No, it's three times Champions League winner, Carlo Ancellotti
Moyes - Och Aye. Is he foreign?
87 Posted 20/12/2019 at 16:39:26
1. Grave concerns that we have appointed someone (or seem to be about to) who isn't 100% certain to be the right man
2. No clear idea of who the right man is (I expected Genesio ex-Lyon now earning a packet in China - lots of other suggestions all with their strengths and usually considerable weaknesses)
3. Someone played a practical joke on David Moyes (bit mean but quite funny)
In truth none if us have a clue how this will work out. Its uncharted territory in my lifetime to show such ambition. Just hope the British boys who've shown such desire under Dunc form the spine if the side and we surround them with better quality. Ancelloti does know how to handle quality players after all.
88 Posted 20/12/2019 at 17:00:18
A couple of things. You have drawn, rightly, attention to him hopping from one big European giant to another.
Well that's more or less the fate of a top coach who has won multiple Champions Leagues. You end up being a target for all the mad, impatient owners and chairmen who think you're the silver bullet and, once you haven't satisfied their demand, often within a season or two, they fire you. The clubs he's been at have high turnovers and so one would maybe question the clubs and not the personality of Ancelotti.
I don't see him being all that different from most coaches in that band. They see being fired as inevitable.
Let's remember, club owners play dirty tricks through the media and internally to get out a coach who has done little wrong. Look at Madrid, Munich and PSG. Perhaps his alleged bust-ups have been exaggerated to excuse club owners from being seen as chaotic, fickle or unattractive to future hires.
That aside, I think you might have combined parts of his reign at Parma with his time at Juve. Regarding Baggio, he had the chance to buy him while at Parma I think and wasn't dismissed at Juve as a consequence which is how your article reads.
You also went straight to the defeat in 2005 but overlooked the 2003 Champions League win which was Milan's first in a decade and that he learned from 2005 to beat the RS and win the rematch in 2007.
He also won Madrid their first CL for a while in 2014. You talk about their great set of players, which is totally correct, but they'd not won it and had to watch on while Barcelona dominated. Mourinho couldn't win it with the same group.
You seem to really dislike the idea of him coming but, when you put things in context, I'm not sure quite why.
What I will say in context, is when looking at trophies, the full story doesn't always come out. An awful lot of his wins have come via penalty shoot outs which backs up your bed of roses remark. Sign of a true winner or someone who has been very lucky?
89 Posted 20/12/2019 at 17:03:44
Thanks for the detail. The Napoli owner seems like a bit of an odd ball
90 Posted 20/12/2019 at 17:09:53
91 Posted 20/12/2019 at 17:13:00
I used to follow Italian football avidly back when it was on Channel 4 before the wall to wall EPL coverage. Berlusconi of Milan was the corrupt, nutter of an owner back then. That whole anti-racism thing was cringeworthy. I can understand what the artist was trying to convey but it is one of those things were you're trying to be way too clever for your own good and miss the fact that 90% of people are going to look at it purely on face value. You'd have thought someone would have the common sense to tell him it was a terrible idea.
92 Posted 20/12/2019 at 17:23:28
You then go on to speculate that Ancelotti is Brands choice which seems counterintuitive to everything we have ever heard from Brands on his vision for the club and would surely handcuff him. Yes it is possible but again not probable.
Finally I wish to correct you on his time at Napoli and inference on the owner. While you have correctly given Ancelotti the many plaudits he deserves for his illustrious career you seem to imply that he was as successful as Sarri in Naples and this years results were in large part due to the backdrop of revolt against the owner. In reality Sarri was close to the title and Ancelotti finished 12 points worse off with their lowest points total for 5 years. The teams decline continued this season while Ancelotti watched on haplessly Silva-like. Off the field issues clearly magnified the struggles but they certainly weren't causal.
93 Posted 20/12/2019 at 17:25:23
94 Posted 20/12/2019 at 17:56:54
The article is about as negative as Ive ever read on here, I imagine if Ancelotti was an unused sub on our bench in the 95 cup final the whole article would be about how Ancelotti is the greatest manager the world has ever seen. Hes better than Ferguson, hes better than Unsworth and hes way better than any other manager we have been linked with. What the hell are you whinging about?!
95 Posted 20/12/2019 at 17:58:04
96 Posted 20/12/2019 at 18:34:04
Its ok to have massive reservations about Carlos ability to transform Everton isnt it?
Doesnt mean I wont get behind him when hes here.
And, I will get excited if he starts buying 4 or 5 players who potentially give us some tasty football to watch.
I think, the initial emotional response to this (based on Ancelottis performance as a manager in the last 5 years or so) was ‘this is another colossal waste of money but now the dust has settled a bit and its actually happening, Im very much in the camp of, lets see what happens.
Its not about being proved right or wrong, for me, and I can see your point that Darren taking such a hardline stance before hes even signed a contract is provocative in the extreme.
Maybe hell calm down once we sign some world class players and then beat the RS in the 3rd round.
Its possibly very irresponsible from Moshiri, but its only football, its meant to be a distraction from real life.
And this could be a fun ride.
If it all goes tits up, Duncan will have the jacket off sharpish, and well be fine.
97 Posted 20/12/2019 at 18:35:40
99 Posted 20/12/2019 at 18:52:21
As you say, if it goes tits up at least we now know we've got Big Dunc to come back in and reset things.
100 Posted 20/12/2019 at 19:21:50
101 Posted 20/12/2019 at 19:26:34
Great to see you back although I would have preferred a less opinionated, Bigoted post from you as your comeback article.
I usually agree with much of what you say but in this case our views are poles apart.
I have pulled what little hair I have left out at the appointments of Martinez and Silva, both relegation managers and totally unsuited to a club with ambition.
Koeman, I thought, was the right man but got undermined by BK with his swap Lukaku for Rooney and make some money antics which Koeman couldnt and wouldnt live with.
However to have the opportunity of bringing inone of the most successful managers of his lifetime to our club shows the ambition and brings in the quality that most of us have yearned for.
IMO this man will only improve the club, the playing squad and the backroom staff.
He will not tolerate any interference by Kenwright and will show real leadership qualities.
He is not some has been looking for his last big payday, he is still highly motivated to winning things and as a plus is the only manager to have beaten the RS this season.
Klopps CV dwarfs in comparison so that is good enough for me.
102 Posted 20/12/2019 at 19:28:26
The terraces at Goodison are full of negative bile (I cannot think of a single player who hasnt had dogs abuse in the last few years) and its time everyone (as you say) got behind the manager (whether they wore blue or not) and the players and have an atmosphere that allows Everton to be brave for a fucking change!
103 Posted 20/12/2019 at 19:32:47
Supposed to be building a £500 million stadium,throwing £30 million away paying, paying off managers in four years.
Carlo has come on a fortune annually and has been told hes got the funds to build a champions league side. "After he keeps us up" £2.5 million bonus,hope he bungs big Dunk a few quid if he hoovers up 9 points 4 games maybe 12.??
He must have £200/£300million to play with over three or four years.
This smells of Alisher Usmanov 's £12 billion quid.
If it is who cares as long as he acts properly towards the club,its status,history.Get amongst the RS,USA,City Oil money,Utd USA now us.
Dream team,dream times why be negative.
As long as we get great football and we are successfull again.
Gotta do it on the pitch now,trophies on the shelf.
Just get behind em.Enjoy
104 Posted 20/12/2019 at 20:16:43
If he has a history (and he does) of getting sacked by clubs who have paid him handsomely, then why on earth should it not be discussed? Why should his successes be lauded, but his shortcomings swept under the carpet? Those who want to focus on his success and turn a blind eye to all those dismissals and, in some cases, player revolts are perfectly at liberty to do so.
I didn't invent Ancelotti's sackings or the player revolts against him. They happened. They are a matter of fact. Those claiming I am misrepresenting him by saying he inherited so many world-class players are in denial. He did; he inherited far more top drawer players than he ever brought in. Try listing them.
I find reading claims that the article is overly negative really rather bemusing. I'm calling for the guy who has brought this tidal wave of positivity to be given the job... is that negative? Really?
And yes, I did advocate that Unsworth should be given the job, but the club did what all those naysayers wanted them to do. They overlooked him. They went with Big Sam instead and later Marco Silva. Remind me... How did that go? After spending north of £300 million on players, agents and wages, Ferguson found himself in exactly the same position Rhino inherited two years ago... Some progress that.
Finally, I was asked to quantify what I said about Ancelotti failing... to provide a benchmark. That's easy: anything short of silverware and Champions League football by the end of next season has to be deemed failure. The people who are saying he should get the job – and therefore become one of the world's highest-paid managers must surely expect him to win trophies?Otherwise, what would be the point?
If we are going to hire the guy on the grounds that he is a "serial winner", we can't start making excuses for him if he doesn't deliver.
106 Posted 20/12/2019 at 20:54:00
He doesnt loose his nerve easily this man. He is showing a level of commitment that should be a source of hope for all Evertonians.
I think we should back him in every move he makes, because if he fails, its good night Everton.
107 Posted 20/12/2019 at 21:01:23
So basically Darren does not see any merit in this appointment, believes, and by the sounds of it hopes, it will fail ( without re-reading it I can't recall a sliver of hope or good will).
As far as the analogy goes I think it is fair to say we have our plot, foundations and architects (the level of their competence feel free to debate), and your rich playboy is always going to be mightily involved in interior design, fittings and decoration matters. Although I would say, to keep within the analogy, his wife will.
No-one can predict accurately how this will pan out and we do not know any of the background machinations of which there seem to be a significant number if rumours and gossip can be listened to. For myself - I cannot quite believe what we may have pulled off and I am optimistic - considerably more so than the vain hope I harboured for Martinez and Silva. Sam did what he came for and Koeman I thought would turn out well.
I said on another thread that it all seems a little surreal. I can't quite work out how the initial dovetailing of Ancelotti into our structure will work but surely due diligence has been carried out.
I am actually fearful it might go tits up against the Arse, but a good win tomorrow please lads to end Duncan's temporary shift on a high,
Set a further good example to CA, and look positively to the immediate future. COYB
108 Posted 20/12/2019 at 21:02:01
That said, passion is to be applauded, and especially on match days if it's from one and all, but mainly the players. What happens during the rest of the Finch Farm week is the mystery that needs solving by someone who knows how to win, and is given the tools to do it.
It'll be costly in any event.
109 Posted 20/12/2019 at 21:20:53
110 Posted 20/12/2019 at 22:57:29
Much, though, depends on Ancelottis budget because our current players are not Champions League standard and no manager in the world could make them so.
111 Posted 20/12/2019 at 23:30:47
"Steve Ferns- it would be better to deal in fact and not conjecture on how the club have gone about replacing Silva. To suggest they have been in control all along is baffling and to deride twebbers concerns because an end is in sight is just fabrication on your part."
I did not state my opinion as fact. I used the word "think" five times and "would not expect" another. My post clearly is marked as my opinion and observation. So I have no idea what you are getting at. Am I not allowed to disagree with a consensus and give my opinion?
I disagree with your "correction" of my opinion of his time at Napoli. Indeed Sarri finished second like Ancelotti did. Indeed Sarri ran Juve a lot closer and was just 4 points back as opposed to 11, and yes he got 79 points as opposed to 91.
But what about the rest. Sarri crashed out of the Champions League losing four games, and winning only 2 games, home to Feyenoord and home to Shaktar. Finishing below Shaktar by 6 points is a major failing for an Italian side. Now Ancelotti also finished 3rd. But the story here is one we may remember. He got 9 points, 3 more than Sarri. But he did not have Feyenoord and Shaktar in his group, he had PSG, Liverpool and Red Star Belgrade. After a disappointing draw to Red Star (away), they beat Liverpool in the San Paolo, got a point in Paris, held the Parisians to another draw in Naples, beat Red Star, and then lost be a solitary Salah goal at Anfield to be beaten into 3rd by Liverpool. Liverpool and Napoli had the same points (9), so it went to head to head and with the result 1-0 at each home ground, they could not be separated, goal difference was both plus 2, and so Liverpool went through on goals scored. If only Napoli had scored another goal at home to Red Star, or even if they had sneaked a late winner, and Ancelotti's Napoli would have prevented the RS winning the Champions League last season.
In the Europa League Sarri was knocked straight out by Leipzig. Ancelotti made it to the quarter finals losing to Arsenal. Both made it to the Italian Cup Quarter Finals.
we also need to take into account the transfers. Sarri raided Napoli for Jorginho, Pepe Reina left on a Bosman, Zapata was sold to Samp, and Hamsik was sold to China. €90m Euros raised but only just over half was reinvested, spent on Verdi from Bologna, and Ruiz from Betis. Other transfers were a couple of keepers from Udinese and Ciciretti from the hapless Benevento. So, Ancelotti did not have the strength of team that Sarri did. But despite this, he still got them to 2nd once more, and almost got them out of an extremely tough Champions League group including the eventual winners.
This summer Ancelotti was given Chucky Lozano, Elif from Fener, and Kostas from Roma as Napoli splashed the cash, following criticism of the selling of the squad the year before. Results were expected. Ancelotti had Napoli in the top 4, and then defeat to Roma dropped them to 7th and the events described in my post at #81 occurred and even then Ancelotti was still in 7th, but now falling away from the top 4 when sacked, and this time he did get them out of their CL group qualifying for the knockouts.
Conor, you may think Ancelotti did crap at Napoli. I think he did well. I think this season was still in progress and was maybe not quite on track, but still going fairly well until the President pressed the self-destruct button, with the Champions League knockouts still to come and plenty of time to close the gap and get back into the top 4.
112 Posted 20/12/2019 at 23:40:48
113 Posted 20/12/2019 at 23:43:15
114 Posted 21/12/2019 at 07:22:18
If the serial winner doesnt do his job Darren, do you really think our desperate fan-base will make excuses for him? I know you better than to say that youre willing failure Darren, and I know you have been more right than wrong when it comes to Everton managers, but get behind Carlo Ancelotti, because thats what hes hopefully going to be from Monday morning, and even if he fails, isnt it great to see Everton Football Club going for and getting, one of the very best managers of recent time?
115 Posted 21/12/2019 at 09:41:27
The others are, of course, Bob Paisley and Zinedine Zidane. Both did it three times with the same club.
Therefore, hes won it more than Mourinho (2), more than Rafa (1), more than Klopp (1), more than Lippi (1), more than Capello (1), more than Sacchi (2), or anyone else you care to name.
When you tot up with UEFA titles hes won 7 of them. Again, this is the most. Here only Sir Alex Ferguson and Il Trap (Trapattoni) can match him. Trap winning 3 UEFA Cups and 1 CL.
For the Club World Cup, Guardiola has won it 3 times (remember he inherited CL winning Bayern and never won the CL with them), whilst Ancelotti and Zidane are the only other managers to win the competition more than once. Ancelotti missed out on a third as the competition started to be annual in 2005 and his first CL win would have made him eligible in 2004.
Ancelotti is the only manager in history to win four or more of the “Big 5” European Leagues. The Big 5 being in Uefa coefficient order: Spain, England, Germany, Italy and France. Ancelotti should have had all 5 but never won the league with Real Madrid. Guardiola is on 3 of the leagues, with Italy and France left. Mourinho needs France and Germany.
If you tot up total major trophies won, then Guardiola and Mourinho of the active managers are the only ones ahead.
I may have reservations about how he can get the job done, but his honour roll is mind blowing. This guy could easily have gone on his holiday to Vancouver and then waited until the summer and had his pick from the best clubs in the world. That hes coming here is nothing short of sensational.
116 Posted 21/12/2019 at 09:47:05
117 Posted 21/12/2019 at 10:02:32
I'm glad Moshiri is still dreaming, despite his poor recruitment and decision-making. I hope he's learnt from his mistakes, like most successful people do.
In my experience, most people who dream, and put their money/life where their mouth is, are successful. They get disappointed, they keep going till they succeed. It can be harder than being cynical, but it's more fun once you get there.
Ferguson's worked hard to live his dream and may get another chance in time. He deserves our thanks for lifting us. Ancelotti,like many top managers, has had sacking. Unlike many top managers, he's got a string of trophies in different countries. I always think with managers that it's not whether they're sacked, but where they end up. He ends up at good clubs and wins them titles. I hope he does it with us.
I never want to stop trying to do better, be better, believing I can be better. I'm glad Moshiri thinks the same way about my club.
118 Posted 21/12/2019 at 10:05:13
119 Posted 21/12/2019 at 10:39:48
David Moyes it is then
120 Posted 21/12/2019 at 10:57:27
Moshiri is throwing money at it, and rightly so. It seems a fair amount of Evertonians are still struggling to throw off the small club mentality. Get behind the club, finally trying to think big!
In my view we should be shooting for the stars, not employing perennial losers.
121 Posted 21/12/2019 at 11:18:56
I didn't mention their CL records in Napoli because they are similar as are their Cup records. You conveniently left out that Sarri in his other season topped the group on 11 points to falsely give the impression that Ancelotti did better in Europe with Napoli.
It is the league which is your bread and butter. Ancelotti was brought to win or at least compete for the title. Yes he lost Jorginho in his first season but Sarri lost his best player Higuain one season so the excuse is quite poor especially when you consider that they spent their record transfer budget this season to help Ancelotti achieve their targets.
As had happened at Bayern players were already complaining about tactics and fitness. Their demise continued and as you say they were a poor seventh before the situation with the owner and in a slump. You argue "results were as expected" By whom? Their fans would have expected them to be top considering Juve weren't at full throttle. My mate watches them regularly and he sounded like Evertonians did about Marco, gormless lifeless and no answers, Sarri ball was well and truly dead.
Certainly the owner situation didn't help but his intervention came due to pressure from the fans because of how poor they were playing and how they were or more accurately weren't working under Carlo.
Just to put their drop into context we would be 13/14 points worse than last season if we continue as we have all season. Ancelotti in his first was 12, this season they were in free fall.
If you think this is "going well" let's hope he doesn't go well at Everton and produces the type of overachievement he did at Parma instead.
122 Posted 21/12/2019 at 11:22:24
123 Posted 21/12/2019 at 11:24:18
124 Posted 21/12/2019 at 11:27:25
Brilliant! And that's just your play on words.
Ucking ecstatic that Carlo is confirmed.
BIG 'YES!!!!' from me.
125 Posted 21/12/2019 at 11:58:26
126 Posted 21/12/2019 at 17:08:15
I watched the game in a pub in High wycombe today. I met two blues who were talking about somebody already rocking the boat on TW. I just knew it would be you. Fair play. Your diplomatic skills may continue to fall short, but you certainly know how to start debate.
I can't have Big Dunc, mate. He's done a good job. But the red mist has always descended a little too readily for me. We will need a cool head in the games we are expected to win..
Like a lot of others on here. I too have reservations about Carlo, but for different reasons than you. I think he is a spent force.
I think you are right about some showing a small club mentality. This appointmentment has shades of Samual Eto about it. I feel we are cheering the signing of somebody who once was brilliant for Europes elite, but doesn't interest them anymore. Ancelotti is probably having to pinch himself. Just when he thought the big contracts were a thing of the past. In steps good old Everton.
I cant believe a manager who has been past his best for some time now will somehow rekindle his his glory days with a squad as ordinary as ours
This appointment would have excited me 5 years ago. I hope I'm wrong. I pray Dazza is
127 Posted 21/12/2019 at 20:20:35
He must have had assurances that the club are going all out to recruit the very best players, his appointment does not make sense otherwise. Whether we will be successful in attracting the right players to Goodison has to be a concern, but having Ancelotti will definitely help.
For that reason alone, I support his hiring and believe it's our only way out of the stagnation of the last 20 odd years.
Money undoubtedly talks in the Premier League and it looks like we really mean business this time.
128 Posted 22/12/2019 at 12:38:41
I said at the time that all I wanted was a manager that could do this – and then how! Ancelotti could be the world's best.
Truth be told, maybe it isn't the right time for him, maybe we are better off with a 'Brendan Rogers' type who can do a little from Column A and a little from Column B; improve the players and not cock-up so incessantly during a match, as Silva would.
But seriously, how can we look a gift-horse in the mouth. Given the volume of RS goblins cluttering up every comment section of every article written about our new manager, that serves as a glowing endorsement as far as I am concerned.
129 Posted 23/12/2019 at 15:04:57
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