U18s crash out of the FA Youth Cup at Old Trafford

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I'm not sure if we'll play 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, 4-4-2… we'll know soon enough.

I am also disappointed with the lack of style that I see, when watching the younger Everton teams Robert, but at least these younger kids know how to roll their sleeves up, and get stuck in, (something the first team are badly lacking) and this could possibly be, why Everton have got a great record of producing players, that go on to have successful careers in the lower divisions?

Sorry Michael, I didn’t realize someone asked that question last week, and was reading the thread backwards, which probably makes a lot of sense for me, mate!

He hasn’t featured for a few weeks now. Hopefully it’s not too serious.

Thought the pen. was a very harsh decision then the second goal down to the centre back but thought the ‘ keeper was rooted to his line and could have come out for the centre, like another ‘keeper we all know.

Has anyone else had trouble getting this game on, I am a season ticket holder.

Nice combo between Sherif and Okoronkwo for our goal. Poor call on the penalty for them. Sloppy conceding of their second goal. First Campbell not tidying up the ball on the touchline, then Welch too easily outjumped on the header.

Mills as ever playing well. So too are Sherif and Okoronkwo. We have it in us to get back into this, but as the half went on United's midfield started getting more of a grip on the game.

I switched it off when the third goal went in, it's so difficult to get any joy watching any Everton team lately.

Just checked on the Hearts scoreline. Simms has got his second goal for them tonight. Currently 1-1 v Dundee.

I don't know if the United lads are slightly older than our lads, but the difference in physicality between the two teams, apart from a couple of the Everton players, was very noticeable.

Phill, it’s seems like they must work on this aspect of the game, a lot more than they work on the skill/technical side of football, and I personally think this is something that is very noticeable when I watch our younger teams play?

I've seen most of Simms matches, 2 x 45 mins, 1 x 90 mins before tonight, he makes a big difference to Hearts even when he doesn't score. He s doing well out there.

We do everything at 100 miles an hour; Man Utd build up, quick passing, triangles, players into space and phew a shot, a goal, they could have had 7 or 8 by the end of the night.

We don't have players who use their brain, guile, movement. Not just at this level but U23s much the same: defend deep, 2-3 midfielders who try to break quickly with quick forwards, but basically kick and rush.

It's like they are learning from a coach who is taking everything out of a book. I understand and appreciate discipline, but surely the best way to learn, is by playing free?

I think you learn from your mistakes, if you're allowed to play with a bit of freedom (99.9% of us will only ever truly learn from our own mistakes). Instead of learning nothing, except actually being scared of making mistakes. It makes me despair.

English football seems to be getting a lot right, but the very early years should just be about having good coaches, concentrating on learning little kids how to enjoy the ball, and that it's not just all about scoring goals. Another contradiction, I know!

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I wonder if it is down the the very formulaic coaching you describe. It's coming across as stifling as the discredited Charles Hughes kick and rush stuff.

Pointlessly knocking it from centre half to full back to centre half does not make us Barcelona.

I see us play out from the back (shakily) and then end up in the midfield scrapping it out to retain possession.

There's no oragnised transition of the ball up the pitch, one twos, movement etc.

I'm convinced these young players are capable of a much more sophisticated brand of football, but are held back by the same approach to football that you might get in non-league football.

We needed a good news story, sounds like he made a very good impression and controlled the midfield. Ironically, just the type of midfielder we need at the moment.

It will be interesting to see how he develops at Tranmere now he will possibly be targeted a bit more when in possession. If he continues to look a cut above, he's the type of player that Frank will be watching very closely in pre-season to see if he's ready to make the step up.

Maybe it's because we have got a lot of young players all suddenly thrown in together. Like Phill says, the shape is very good, but the more they advance up the pitch, the less idea they seem to have, and often play with a centre-forward who is very isolated.

Kieran on another thread has spoken about getting rid of the academy, and although I can see where he's coming from, I'd go the other way and put a lot more time and effort into it.

But first I'd be restructuring the coaching because I have a very similar opinion to Robert, and also because I believe that the right people can teach kids almost anything.

I understand that to a point with two of the lads only 15 years of age, Samuels-Smith and Sherif and Metcalfe only 16, but I would like to know what the coach has learned himself in the last few years he has been coaching this team?

There is very little individuality about how the players operate and playing out from the back is nearly as poor as the first team. It's like, as someone said earlier, ‘they are learning it from a textbook' – just not doing it naturally, not pleasing to watch, for me at least.

They were unlucky at times last night, didn't see the full game, I didn't think the penalty decision was the right one, and we were unlucky with a few efforts hitting the woodwork or just off target.

But United played much more as a team and were deservingly winners although helped by slackness for the second goal and, after the third goal, we were always chasing the game which didn't help our case.

I feel these boys could be helped better by giving them a free reign, with the ball, when they join the club at a very early age and let see and know how enjoyable it is to play football and then let them learn as they grow older what a rat race professional football is in the Premier League, and be more prepared for it.

Plenty of players in the first team are not prepared for it by their performances this season and most of that is because they haven't been educated football wise how mentally tough this league is to play in.

I read the other day that Ancelotti has to go and renew his coaching badges, how laughable is that! A man who has won everything as a coach as well as a player, has to resit his badges. So who is qualified to asses if Ancelotti is qualified to hold on to his badges?

I don't know who runs these courses but there is nobody in World football, not even Guardiola, who has won as much as Ancelotti.

These badges seem to be a complete waste of time and that's maybe why every club plays the same way, because all the managers have been on these courses where no doubt it's the same routine, irrespective of who is taking the course. I would love to hear if anybody on ToffeeWeb has got experience of being on one of these courses

Dave, free reign is good in the sense it replicates street football and the stifling type of coaching we see. However, it is not as good as genuinely progressive coaching of how to move a ball up the pitch in order to create goal-scoring chances.

My youngest son has started playing football, under 8’s, and I see some fantastic young talent. I saw one kid, couldn’t take my eyes off him, because he his so natural, and said to this fella watch this kid. The kid got the ball, went past three players coming inside from out-wide, then put one in the top corner from 12 yards.

I watched the kid last week for ten minutes, and it might have just been nothing (I’m aware kids are like yo’yo’s) but the kid stopped the ball and started looking around, before giving a bad pass, and it made me sad because I know he’s been going to different academies, and my own feeling/worry, is that kids with natural talent are getting coaching that over complicates, natural talent.

I might be wrong, but when a 7/8 year old kid starts playing on the back foot, or stops doing things that come natural, it’s definitely time to look at who’s training them, imo.

Robert (41) Robert I meant kids who were very young and were in love with playing football, where do you think the greats of football through the ages learned the skills of playing football, in the streets, tenements and bombed areas of where they lived and they also learned to play it rough in those long gone places and they were all the better for playing and learning that way.

Brian @40. I'm totally against the Dads coaching their lads team culture that still plagues our grass roots. Unqualified louts with little understanding of developing young footballers and just want to win for their own egos more than anything else. In that sense there is logic in coaching badges. But I do agree with you, it shouldn't be the benchmark. Footballing nous and knowledge should be. Can you imagine the assessor who has to re-certify Guardiola? That would be an interesting hour session!!

The badging has become a money making industry in my opinion like in other walks of life. If you show a certification, you are qualified. But in many ways, it just means you've passed an exam. In my profession, I look beyond that and for experience. That often beats a certificate about 75% of the time.

That aside and on some of the other discussion, let young footballers be natural. Let them develop naturally. As youth coaches, develop them as footballers and don't be obsessed with results. Let them make mistakes. But coach, don't criticise - that's how they will learn and retain the confidence in their ability. Don't knock it out of them. Nurture and mentor it. Guide them on how to improve. Mistakes happen, but don't crucify them for it. Tell them what them could have done differently to influence the game and improve as a person and a footballer.

I could go on all day about this, but I won't bore you all!!

I read your comments on another thread about not allowing kids to join professional set ups till there 14, I have banged on about this for years. Trouble is I came from an age were we used to play in the street or on waste ground, which helped to develop ball control. Were now we see kids of 7 and 8 joining academies of professional clubs utter madness. I know some years back I was talking to a guy whose son was at Evertons academy, I think he was 12/13 and he was forbidden to play for his school team.

The problem with that is there is these kids at a young age learn more about positioning than playing, yes an important part of the game to learn but often I fear of a kid having to play to a system. I know its going back a while but Fred Pickering started life at Blackburn as a full back but the coaches there switched him to centre forward and he went on not only to play for us but also for England. I don't read too much of that sort of lateral thinking going on today. I am sure Dave Abrahams who has a far better memory than me will probably know of many cases back in the day when players switching position was more commonplace.

Times move on.

Ajax work with kids from within a 30 mile radius of the stadium and expect them to have mastered technique by, I think, age 8.

This is done through brilliant, progressive coaching.

I think the British experience of coaching is so bad that we can't see the benefits of it, and are effectively saying its so stifling it's actually better not to be coached until you're older.

I think foreign fans / clubs would find this a weird mentality - asking instead, why don't you just train better coaches.

Most important, let them enjoy football. In a natural environment. With a focus on development as individuals and footballers. Not chasing the dream and the pressure that comes with that. Not because the coach is screaming at them to win the local U-12s cup final.

I haven't watched the Rooney programme yet, but I do have empathy with a lot of young players caught up in this bubble the elite game has created. Which is obviously different from sympathy, as I know they get to have privileges some of us dream of. But they and their families also sacrifice a lot.

Satellite clubs sponsored by the club that feed into the main academy. Clubs supporting grass roots but benefiting at the same time.

Slightly separate but as we're on the topic of youth development, I'll right up about a fantastic session I watched a Dutch coach deliver to 6 year olds. All about how to care for and treat the ball as if it was your pet dog. Outstanding. Look after the ball from a very early age. Not get rid of it.

At one time in Holland, I think, kids never played for cups and league titles until they were around twelve or thirteen so they were learning the game while enjoying it, don’t know if that still applies in Dutch junior football.

I never really witnessed Pele, but his legend speaks for itself.

I'm with you on Maradonna, but for me it will always be Cruyff.

To your point I was talking to someone from Sporting KC this week whose academy played a tournament last summer versus Everton, Porto and another club. He didn't know I was an Everton fan but he was surprised at how poor Everton were technically. He said it was all 100 miles an hour rough and tumble stuff. He reckoned (although I realize he may be bias) that the Sporting KC kids were better technically than Everton. Although he also said Porto were light years ahead technically.

The best artists I have seen (other than as quite a little kid) are probably Savicevic, Zidane, Del Piero, Ronaldo (Brazil), Ronaldinho, Iniesta, Bergkamp, Henry and Messi. Ronaldo is of course insanely brilliant but very robotic too. It's nice to see true artists express themselves for more than just the glory.

That's why we're probably all disappointed that Rooney left us to become effective instead of extravagant.

Good list but I'd include Hagi. He could never be bothered at club level but for Romania he was magic.