FA to ask Lampard to explain criticism of derby officiating

Frank is right to say what every Everton supporter is thinking. There is a clear bias towards the so-called top 6 clubs.

The frustrating thing is that the VAR should have stepped in once the ref bottled it.

Also it wasn't that long ago that they apologized to him for a disgraceful decision against City, and then Everton got three players sent-off in consecutive games, where it could even be argued that the game's officials decided to pull rank?

They probably agree with the Pompous arrogant Klopp, Gordon should have received a 2nd yellow.

I am not defending Klopp but I think he was making the same point as Frank by saying if it wasn't a penalty then it must have been yellow. In other words the officials got it wrong – again.

No, Klopp was adamant and arrogant on BBC yesterday after the game, he said it was no penalty, and he should have got a 2nd yellow for diving.

I only have a problem with just one referee explains everything, and these words were uttered by Klopp, who would have been absolutely incensed if the same thing had happened at the other end of the pitch, I'm sure.

Lampard was also in the Chelsea team that lost the Champions League semi final against the RS for a shot that didn't cross the line.

There is one very bitter kopite in charge somewhere.

Fuck em all and well done Frank for stating the obvious.
It’s about time the Everton hierarchy got vocal about this as we need to make a stand against the constant injustice

Those incompetent wankers that the FA are defending bring the game into disrepute every fucking week and you can’t question their integrity when they don’t have any to question. Implied bias what a joke - that stonewall penalty would have been given by Twatwell without any hesitation if it had been any of the redshite players hitting the deck following that challenge. Where the fuck was the VAR ref, nipped away for a piss and missed it did he, oh well thats ok then. Let them fine Frank for having the audacity to call them out over his team getting fucked over yet again by a biased, incompetent or cowardly officials. How come Twatwell nearly wet his knickers chasing over to check the ball was positioned correctly for our corner but not once, as far as I can recall, do it for any of redshite corners. Fuck them and the FA. I’m sure Frank can afford to pay the fine and at least he’s calling them out yet again over it. These piss poor reffing decisions have happened too often this season for it to be put down to pure coincidence. Questioning their integrity - my arse.

Corporate culture now well and truly ensconced into the PL and its supporting machinery.

As if Aldridge isn't fully aware of Salad and his spring steel spine diving technique.

I have to say it was getting ridiculous to the point that he has actually reeled it in a little this season.

The PR machine is despicable. Carragher’s comment immediately after Kevin Campbell said the referee bottled it, was incredible, and when one goes against Liverpool, he won’t be so quick to take the heat off the referee, by switching the gear, away from the ref and onto the Everton players, like he did yesterday?? (Nice one Stuart, Atwell we will look after you👍🤮)

The players have bottled it, Gordon also dived in the first half yesterday, but Carragher’s comments took the decision completely off course, and that was absolutely scandalous when looking at the overall picture, and summed up the acceptable/necessary bias, which definitely favours certain teams.

Customers and not fans is a great description Nick, for a good percentage of the Liverpool crowd

Everton should present their evidence, we already have an apology in hand, and use it to make life as uncomfortable as possible for the powers that be. I agree that it is likely to end badly for us if we refuse to simply lie down but we have to make that stand.

The FA seem to think the best form of defence over VAR is to attack anybody who, rightfully, criticises it, it not working fairly because of incompetence, bias or downright dishonesty in too many incidence’s.

1. Accept that you can be negatively controlled or influenced with no recourse to a proper system of overview, correction or explanation, and eat it.

2. Question it and run the risk of further negative consequences.

Scant consolation, but If nothing else, the veil is being lifted and people are starting to see real world examples of how things really work - across the board. Not much left today that doesn't have the same old fingers stuck up it one way or another.

The 5 sub rule next season, now I wonder which clubs will benefit more than others, from that rule change.

In regards to the big six breakaway, who even though doing a u-turn, they broke the rules, by signing to a breakaway league, before informing the Premier League first of their intent.

Get a small fine, which is then waived, without them having to face a points deduction, oh yes it was not the players' fault, nor the fans, it was the owner's... try telling that to Derby County.

I am Proud of Frank and his comments – I think he is a true Evertonian – a good manager, and with all our young capable players, he will build a good strong team next season. I just think the Premier League, Sky Sports, and the ridiculous amounts paid in transfers and wages, have ruined the game that I love.

If Salah at full tilt, in front of say Holgate inside the Kop penalty area, gets a push in he back, gets his ankle stood on, there is at the very very least a VAR review. A penalty would ensue.

If the FA think this is not true, they are in cloud-cuckoo land. In fact,they know it's true and are just going through the motions for the necessary optics. It's a charade and our Frank will be fined as part of it.

We also had the Spurs fiasco, where the ref blew for a penalty, as Richarlison got back up, had the goalie in no man's lands, but game stopped before he could get a shot off.

There was also a game where Michael Keane jumped up, landed on a player's foot and a penalty was given.

Over the past 4 years, I have watched more lower league televised matches than Premier League games. It's boring, predictable and, as long as the top clubs are winning, everyone is happy.

The Premier League must continue this trend even more as the threat of a Super League is hanging over them. Keep the top clubs competing against each other for trophies and the brand marches on.

Televised sport now is branded and not competitive. The next 10 to 20 years will be the same clubs taking the trophies for worldwide audiences. Simply the television revenue is where it's at.

Everton have no standing and it's pointless fighting something that is unjust. Frank will be told to shut up and go away. There is no room for the little man anymore! What is right and fair is not important anymore. This is big business!

Many managers have been fined for their comments over the years. Mourinho more than once I imagine.

It’s fairly simple. You can say that you think the referee got every decision wrong but you cannot accuse or imply that they do it intentionally.

I see their keyboard warriors are out and about in force today. I wonder why. The comments I've seen are so laughable it's untrue. We dive, dive and dive again. Excuse me Salah. Mane, Suarez???

Apparently one EFC fan appears to have smashed a TV screen in one of the Mordor Stands. RS saying we are the most disgusting fans in Britain. We should be relegated. EFC fans don't know how to behave - animals.

Well I have this to say to these saddoes - 39. Remember? Or is it still an inconvenient truth best forgotten? Hypocrites!

The official VAR explanation for Mane only receiving one yellow card after striking two players was that Atwell didn't see the second incident, so it wasn't a 'clear and obvious' mistake. So why didn't the VAR advise him to take another look at it? Isn't that what the VAR is supposed to be for?

I think Attwell was the VAR who encouraged the match ref to change Allan's card from a yellow to a red in the Newcastle game! Go figure!

If these refs aren't incompetent, then the only conclusion to be drawn is that they're corrupt.

I take issue with the Premier League's stance though. There is clear bias and incompetence in officiating and the VAR system. And yet no-one in the game is allowed to challenge it? How's it going to improve then?

Referees used to have to make big calls in big moments in big games. We always suspected some bias, but now they have the safety net of the VAR. In that key moment, they don't have to be the one that invokes Klopp and the Liverpool media mafia's ire. They can just let the call go to the VAR... who will inevitably allow the original cowardly decision to stand because they don't really know what basis the ref used to assess the incident.

Did Atwell see the foot on foot contact? The hand on the shoulder? The arm in the back? If he saw all that and decided it didn't warrant a penalty then he's incompetent but it's not the VAR's job to get involved.

If he didn't see it then the VAR should be sending him to the screen. But this decision was all reached in seconds without the game stopping. They didn't know what he saw and they didn't stop to check.

And this is the system that we can't complain about for fear of sanction?

It's a disgrace. It's inherently biased and broken.

Then you go back to Rodri where they did check what the ref saw. He said he thought it was on the sleeve line and the logic was that he was wrong but it was close enough to not be a clear and obvious error. It's a massive balls up.

In 1994, we overlooked all that and just focused on that last day win over Wimbledon. Consequently, nothing was fixed. A few months later, we were rock bottom without a win after 11 games.

The second half of last season, we were dreadful but we got hung up on Carlo leaving instead of realizing the team was in serious trouble. If we somehow survive, we need to have a complete overhaul. If we are relegated, we need a complete overhaul.

Let's not give Kenwright, Moshiri, the coaches and players a way out by banging on about this injustice as if it's the be-all and end-all. If we become good again, then we complain about the reffing as Mourinho did and Mancini did when their sides first dared to compete. Right now, it's the least of our troubles.

Also why are people upset by people are criticizing our tactics? We set out to be spoilers and did it well for 60 minutes. People noticed but we are upset they comment on it?

And why the fuck are people upset neutrals no longer see us as their second favourite team? Have you ever had a second favourite team that threatened your real team? No. I'd quite happily see us be pantomime villains and universally hated cause my only concern is Everton.

We played well against one of the top sides in the world. Frank go the tactics exactly right, but you cannot buy a penalty at Anfield. The referees simply don't have the bollocks to give one - not corruption, just everyday cowardice. I thought we'd get 4 points from Man Utd, Leicester and Liverpool, but you can't legislate for the like of Soton and Wolves getting the summer flip-flops on against Burnley.

We have 6 games left and 18 points to go for. If we secure 12 points we will definitely be safe (I think we will need less). So, it is all in our own hands and we should only panic when that is not the case.

Leeds play Man City (H), Arsenal (A) and Chelsea (H) in their new 3 games, so let's see what the table looks like after those matches.

FA - A: Frank, you do remember don’t you that LFC were the instigators of the European Super League and they were the last to pull out. In fact they only pulled out because we promised them the earth if they stayed in the EPL. Then we gave them a £2.50 fine to make it look like punishment. LFC are our cash cow - we can’t upset them Frank. LFC asked for 5 subs per game and we had to go along with it. What can we do Frank?

Frank - Q: Just ask 99.999% of the population (including the most biased red pundits) if it was a penalty and they will tell you - yes it was a penalty. Why was this incident not referred to VAR? You are taking the fans outside of those clubs wanting to join the ESL for idiots.

FA - A: Frank you are getting far too close to the truth. We apologised for the Man City penalty and we cannot apologise again. We will see you and your club in several years time when you have served your punishment for having the audacity to question us. Meeting over.

I imagine the above meeting would be carried out in a scenario similar to the meeting between Dorothy (Frank) and the Wizard of Oz (FA). Unfortunately Frank didn’t take his dog to the meeting.

Having said that and notwithstanding VAR we have been a big pile of shite this season

Whether we stay up or go down IMO Frank should stay and be given some time to have a clear out and establish a team of his own. Half the problem stems from the fact that we have had so many different managers trying to play so many different formations that the players heads are fucked. Not to mention injuries and the lack of leadership on the pitch.

Anyway what do I know. Bill calls this “good times”

COYB - A win against Chelsea and the bottle is half full again

Bill #44
Yes Atwell was demoted a while back 2012-2016 for being rubbish
"Attwell demoted from Premier League refs list after series of blunders
Referee Stuart Attwell has been demoted from the select group of Premier League officials after a four-year spell dogged by controversy."

Attwell became the youngest referee to officiate in the top flight when, aged 25, he took charge of a match between Blackburn and Hull in 2008 after one season in the Football League.
However, a month later he awarded a 'ghost' goal in a Championship match between Watford and Reading.
Attwell has been involved in a number of controversies:
In 2010, he awarded Liverpool a controversial goal against Sunderland at Anfield when the away team believed the ball to be dead. He had awarded the Black Cats a free-kick inside their own half and Michael Turner touched the ball back to Simon Mignolet, apparently for the goalkeeper to take the set-piece.
But Attwell ruled the ball active, allowing Fernando Torres to steal it and set up Dirk Kuyt to finish into an empty net
Most recently, he came under fire in December for sending off former Bolton defender Gary Cahill for denying Tottenham's Scott Parker a goalscoring opportunity, despite the offence taking place near the halfway line.
The red card was rescinded."
"Attwell became the youngest referee to officiate in the top flight when, aged 25, he took charge of a match between Blackburn and Hull in 2008 after one season in the Football League.
However, a month later he awarded a 'ghost' goal in a Championship match between Watford and Reading."
Following the Watford-Reading game, further controversies followed when he was accused of 'losing control' of a Derby-Nottingham Forest derby, having disallowed two Derby goals in the final stages, booking eight players and sending off Forest's Lewis McGugan.

"He has also attracted the ire of Wigan manager Roberto Martinez, who accused the referee of lying about his reasons for sending off Gary Caldwell in April 2010, while Stoke's Danny Higginbotham claimed Attwell could be too easily influenced by players."

Guys got serious form
This is the guy that got Allan suspended for 3 games after the Ref gave him a yellow in the Newcastle game and he convinced him to overturn it.

You should take a look at a study into referee bias done by the Footy Stats website in November last year. It's extraordinary.

Not only that, which referee has the worst bias against Everton? I wonder who that could possibly be... then look at Liverpool's ranking for bias from all the referees, 3rd highest as shown over the last 10 years, 5 times more favourable than Everton... worth a long look:

Do Referees Favour Certain Football Clubs?

Meanwhile, Everton should be insisting that Lampard only reply through the club's lawyers.

Forget the VAR, the incompetency of the officials in football is stark and clear to see for all and everyone outside of the elite club. Something needs doing because for way too long, we have officials who are not up to standard and more interested in their own egos or having their bellies tickled by their idols. Star struck.

I was vocal against the attempted breakaway in the summer. I now wish they had to gone and done it and left us to it so we can have our game back. Reclaim it from the men in grey suits who feed from the trough and feel their own self-importance. Shamelessly bowing to the few whilst shitting on the many. All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

I'm still hurting. I'm taking the dogs out. I want Sunday to come around quickly. I need Sunday.

A football club personified.

My own view now, is that football now being such a major television sport, it needs controversy, why else do sky have a program called “ref watch?” My own guess is that it keeps people talking, even though the man in the studio is only offering an opinion, and although it's gospel to many, I'd much rather prefer to hear words coming from the horse's mouth, because I feel that referees are now getting more protection than an endangered species.

The only logical question to ask imo, is why don't referees have to explain themselves? Stop and think, because that's exactly what these refs would have to start doing, once they knew they had to start explaining their thoughts on a very regular basis. (Bang-bang-bang, I know)

Bernie@33, I was genuinely shocked when a couple of genuine never miss a game, die-hard Forest fans told me they couldn't wait to get back out of the Premier League, years ago, because they said their days out were much better and a lot more enjoyable in the Championship.

The thing is, my aunties knew his family quite well having grown up with them in the Garston Tenements, so I knew his background. We all want to better ourselves but we never forget our roots or where we come from. Humility beats arrogance.

I always remember a Sunday night out in Woolton (it was a big thing back in the day for those who remember). There were a few players in one of the pubs but I distinctly remember Steve McMahon. The bar was 4 or 5 deep and he gave it the "do you know who I am" to get served ahead of everyone else. Small things, but total arrogance.

And there was a boyhood Evertonian from Halewood who my best friend's Grandad used to take to Goodison on the bus when he was a kid.

He questioned his integrity, which needs explaining.

I think it's good to question integrity because it gives people a chance to explain themselves, but it's like these referees are being protected by the 5th Amendment right now, and once again – nothing is going to change, until they are made to speak on a regular basis, imo.

This is something that has been a problem for years. The officials in football are not held accountable. They never have to explain their decisions and hide behind the protective shield they are afforded.

When the VAR came in, there was outrage and suspicion, mostly generated and fueled by the ex-player pundit community. Why? Because they viewed it as a threat to their job. They need the controversy to fuel and justify their existence. They have cleverly used the VAR to re-invent themselves. Give me sports journalists over ex-players any day.

Why can't football go down the Rugby Union route and hold officials accountable? Use the technology but make them explain and talk through the decision making process. The majority of supporters would mostly be okay, even if they don't agree, if it is explained and we see the logic behind the decision making process, as we see in Rugby. I really can't see what is difficult about that suggestion other than they and the authorities are scared of their own incompetence.

Scratched record for the umpteenth time,

Attwell and England should suspended pending an enquiry into their failure to collaborate in their decisions.

The FA would challenge players at the drop of hat regarding foul play and behaviour on and off the pitch, why is it different rules for officials?

If there is no consistency across the board for the whole game, then the game is open to bias and officials should be making decisions without fear or favour.

I’m sure I’ve heard of refs been demoted to a lower tier for poor performance.

As Mal suggests and as the club has done, a formal complaint or clarification request is fine. But Lampard has questioned the ref’s integrity.

If his explanation stands over his initial point then he’ll likely be fined for effectively calling the ref a cheat.

Personally I think this has to stop. The rights or wrongs aren’t important, at least for the next month. This is a sideshow that nobody at Everton needs. We’re enough of comedy act without adding to it.

Chelsea next Sunday is all that anyone should be thinking about.

Excellent post, couldn't agree more. The corruption in the game now has become overwhelming.

Another thing we need to realise is that the penalty didn't lose us the game. Liverpool with 88% possession and a very clever set of substitutions and change in tactics deservedly won the game. We did very well but, if a team parked the bus like that against us, we would criticise them.

We also need to get over what is almost an irrelevancy, we were always going to lose to Liverpool and we need to get over this, we are on the verge of going down and we are the side with the downward momentum.

I too can't wait until Sunday. It can't come soon enough for me. It will be a long day as I need to be at Gatwick by 7:30am, which is the wrong side of London for me. But return flights to Manchester and the train to Lime Street were a lot cheaper and also quicker given the ongoing engineering works which means a weekend journey from Euston is taking 5 hours plus both ways.

Enough of my travel woes. It's self-inflicted Evertonian-itis. Back on topic. I like the fact our manager has called it out. Let's get vocal and stop this meek, compliant, plucky Everton shite. Let's not be liked. When people like you, it means you are not a threat.

Excuse me. Still emotional and it will probably take until we win on Sunday to bring me down.

As well as the pathetic Brian Laws moment, I also recall David O'Leary consoling him when arsenal won 2-0 to snatch the title - he brushed him off, aggressively so.

But, unfortunately, the outcome of this latest outburst will probably be that we don't get a decision in our favour for the rest of the season. The refs look after their own, don't they? It's human nature I suppose, but it's a fucking disgrace considering what's at stake.

Sunday was always going to be difficult, we all know that, but I think Frank has every right to question why that penalty was not at least reviewed? VAR were quick enough to overturn the Penalty we were awarded against Spurs, VAR were quick enough in their decision that the stonewall penalty against Man City was in fact not a penalty, and VAR were quick enough to decide Allan’s yellow card should be upgraded to a red against the skunks. Shelvey threw in a challenge far, far worse on Anthony Gordon up at Newcastle but only given a yellow, and guess what, no VAR review, or if there was, the decision stood as a yellow. There have been countless other VAR decisions go against us this season, and it’s getting more than beyond a joke now. Paranoid, maybe, but I’ve seen soft penalties awarded to the RS for far far less, notably the one at Palace when Jota leaned into the goalkeeper and then fell over, or the one against Watford when two opponents tangled in the Watford penalty area from a corner, both went to ground, and guess what, penalty awarded to the RS.

So yes, Frank has every right to question these decisions. Of course, we would still have had to score the penalty, but at least gives us the opportunity to score and have something to hold onto. Can see a soft penalty coming our way this Sunday!!

Now either you want an honest response but in doing so you risk a fine so now most managers say you saw the incident you make your mind up, although even when they say this the reporter often follows with, "Well, do you think it was a penalty?"

I know Everton will be fined if they don't put anyone forward so what at least it will make a point to Sky and the FA.

Also say but we will give interviews if first the referee is interviewed immediately after the game. Not going back to the changing room to have a look at replays to concoct a story a bit like our politicians but to be put on the spot about his decisions.

They wont because it will make them look even more shambolic than they already are. The VAR was introduced to supposedly help rectify their mistakes but it seems that the VAR can pick and choose what is checked, and would anybody trust this lot of making an honest decision?

My missus is a Watford fan, and she still goes on about that phantom goal whenever she hears Atwell's name mentioned. It potentially cost them promotion back to the Premier League that year. How he became a top-flight ref is beyond belief.

To anyone who hasn't seen it, go on to YouTube and search "Watford Reading Atwell phantom goal". It wasn't even a case of the ball nearly crossing the line, the ball was nowhere near the goal at all!!

I thought football was a game which originated here not in Russia.

I'm right behind Lampard. He was handed a poisoned chalice when he arrived here, so is on a hiding to nothing really. He's not a Kenwright brown nose and is his own man and whatever league we find ourselves in I hope he makes a good fist of the job.

That's the area of concern I have about Everton being relegated, as I worry that the Premier League officials who are often parachuted in to officiate crucial Championship matches and play-off games will be able to influence / choose which clubs earn promotion. Hopefully, we won't have to experience any of that and will remain in the Premier League.

Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Adrian Holmes, Simon Beck. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: John Brooks. Assistant VAR: Mark Scholes.

I suppose they are all as bad as each other, so I guess it doesn’t really matter who we get. The name John Brooks on VAR doesn’t ring a bell with me though.

The Premier League is reminding me of far left socialism and Communism at it's best. The elite make the masses believe they are subservient and go as far to convince everyone that they are equal when the reality is there is an elite few and then the rest. They control the messaging and the narrative to look after their own backs, keeping the majority under control as we should be grateful for what we have. Others suffer and starve whilst they preach solidarity as they greedily eat and fill their snouts from the pig's trough. George Orwell, 1984; read Premier League.

Sorry Terry, now you've made me sound controversial!!

Orwell's fictional take on socialism was "Animal Farm".

George Orwell is my all time hero, and my favourite author of all time. Not just Eighty-Four and Animal Farm, but Down And Out In Paris and London, The Road To Wigan Pier, Homage to Catalonia...

He didn't just talk the talk, he walked the walk. He went to Spain to fight fascism. He tramped around Paris and London to give the middle classes a true account of what it was like to be poor. The greatest journalist of the twentieth century.

Apologies for the pedantry, but he's Derek Moore's version of Kevin Sheedy.

Never met Aldridge but did know his Dad who was salt of the Earth. I imagine John was over compensating got his humble roots by being an arse hole. Sadly lots of people fall into that trap

As Lampard said, if that incident had happened down the other end to one of their players, the ref would have given a penalty instantly - never mind VAR having to get involved. The FA just don't like the fact we have a manager who is not afraid to highlight the very poor/biased standard of Premier Leagues referees and calls them out when they get it blatantly wrong.

Carry on Frank, I say, it's about time the club started making some noise about the raw deal we get regularly from refs!

I've said it before,unless A CLUB makes a real stand about the sheer unfairness of decisions by our so-called officials,then this shite will just simply continue...the answer is so fucking simple too,refuse to play certain BIG Sky/B.T/Amazon games!... if we survive the drop,then Citeh and the r.s away fixtures would be ideal!!!... but leave it until the eleventh hour,take the fine...but make a fucking stand!...real footy fans would thank us,we could rock the comfy,greedy footballing establishment for good...we,plucky little Everton could just change the game we all love forever!

Another Everton first!!!

On another note, some on other social media outlets are starting to believe that Everton dropping into the Championship will be good for the club, I beg to differ, to my mind trying to win all of the last six games will be far easier than battling it out in the Championship next season.

The west as Oceania, Russia as Eastasia and China as Eurasia. Mobile phones for the telescreen. The rewriting of history...

It's a much larger subject than we can probably cover here though mate!

Maybe he'll buy Everton?

What does it matter if right-minded fans criticise our players for blatantly diving when they blatantly dive? Who do you think is reading this stuff that it would make a difference?

All of this is just whining. Who really cares if Frank is fined?

You're never going to get that call in a derby. It was nominal (if any) contact and never a pen. Gordon made a meal of it, and the pen wasn't awarded. Frank sticking up for his player and bemoaning not getting a call doesn't equate to some cosmic injustice.

We were outplayed by a better team. We set up correctly for the game, played to the plan - which was spot on under the circumstances - and came up short.

This is all drama. What we need to do if find 12 points from the remaining 6 games. The rest of this is non-sensical noise.

I don't see us beating Chelsea frankly. We'll need to win the three winnable games, then hopefully win at Leicester against a team that won't have very much to play for, or win at Arsenal who hopefully have a Champions League spot wrapped up and have nothing to play for.

Or miraculously beat any of Chelsea, Leicester away, or Arsenal away.

All this other chatter about XYZ is mute for me.

It’d interesting to hear Dermot Gallagher (?) on Sky mention on a couple of occasions that “the player didn’t help his cause by making a meal of it” which implies that it, unfairly, plays a part in the next decision.

Why can’t they introduce some sort of rating system based on the officials performance (including VAR) on a game by game basis? The worst performers could face red card type suspensions and maybe even relegation at the end of the season.

In many games the referee makes himself the centre of attention whereas when they perform well you hardly even notice they are. A rating system would certainly make them focus more and up their game.

Perhaps promotion from league to league as per the teams would help improve standards. It may even encourage refs to take VAR to task and vice versa, this could lead to open dialogue that the fans and players can hear as used by other sports.

Having said that we have no one to blame but ourselves for our current plight. Too many wasted chances combined with excessive mistakes and poor tactics are the real cause.

But, by taking the bull by its horns and addressing the dreadful officiating the authorities can go a long way in removing the excuses and more importantly improving the game.

You see similar incidents involving the top teams each season, it stinks.
The officials should be at least fined or even sacked if they make a number of blatant wrong decisions.

https://thisisfutbol.com/2022/04/blogs/premier-league/everton/liverpool-everton-highlights-penalty-incident-jamie-carragher-fan-sky-sports-efc-rumours-live-on-air/

Nothing will happen at Goodison, the officials will be aware of the crowd, but I will not be suprised that our next away game, we will end up having a player sent off, for two petty yellow cards.

From now until the end of the season, the officials will be after us even more than they were, after the apology for the Rodri handball.

3 Red cards followed, Christ knows what they will throw at us now, after calling them out a second time.

Be afraid, the Barstewards are coming for us big time.

Jota unpunished elbow
Trent unpunished push
Mane unpunished second yellow
Matip unpunished penalty

There it is

As an aside these decisions affect more than EFC. Had the Man City pen been given and scored and we escaped with a draw then the shite would now be in pole position to win the title.

The reason we are where we are is that we don't take chances. Playing the way we do, consistently surrendering the majority of possession (we are joint bottom of the possession table for the season at 40%) we have to convert the chances we create and we simply don't do that. Sunday 18% possession we create 3 good chances and don't even hit the target with any of them. Leicester at home, 32% possession, two fabulous chances created for our £50m Brazilian, self styled centre forward, who can't hit the target with either. That is why we are where we are and it isn't going to get better until we start working opposition goalkeepers.

Been saying this all season. How many games do we have like 2 shots on target. When was the last game that we had like 8/10 shots on target. I simply cannot remember it. You test the keeper and usually you get lucky with a weird bounce or deflection. KDB deflection goal against Liverpool, Richy against Leicester, Diaz setting Origi up against us….. we seem to be screaming out for shots on goal every single game. Drives me mad.

Everton have had 6 yellow cards for diving this season (half of the total number fished out in the premier league all season) and, whilst I get frustrated at the theatrics and wish they’d stop, I doubt we are 6 times worse than the nearest team.

Also, I don’t necessarily think it was the dive that influenced the refs first yellow card, more the rolling about clutching his shin like Richarlison does every game, regardless of where the contact actually is. If Gordon goes to ground but doesn’t roll around, I don’t think he gets booked and think we stand more chance of getting the penalty call.

Everyone else was actually holding a decent line. Our centre backs, who should be commanding the line were lost at sea. Or just lost.

Calma, it's about the next match now, even if I do have an obstructed view.

But to your point, we don't threaten enough. As much as that has been our problem, it has been compounded by defending because with better defending, we may have turned some of those defeats into draws. And subsequently points.

Crown after the match on Sunday?

The reason why we're struggling is that there are very few goals in this team. We have consistently bought midfielders who don't score goals. Bernard, Gomes, Iwobi, Delph, Gbamin, Doucoure, Allan, etc do not score goals. Richarlison's goal scoring record has been below par these last two seasons. This means we're over-reliant on DCL, who has missed most of the season. Our last two single goals were deflections, before that we scored two penalties. We buy Kean, bring in King on loan, neither of them got a game, despite the chronic lack of goals.

Wherever we're playing next season, we must start buying players with the interest in/ability to score goals.

If we stay up, it'll be because someone will step up out of the blue and score a couple. I'm not holding my breath.

The authorities have to continue adopting their ridiculous stance pretending they have integrity.
On another front…….. controversially……I am getting sick of Gordons falling over like Zaha for penalties…….. if he hadn’t dived for the first one, we would have got the real one……..
And while I am saying that,I want to say that as much as I admire Richarlisons skill, and efforts and ability, I am even more sick and disgusted by his sulking and cheating.He does our club no favours, and when he is conducting himself like this, he is a disrespecting our great club, and his profession.

Same if a half chance that bounces out, falls to a player getting a shot off, it’s always Allen, those half chances fall to, for once when we get a corner, have Gray standing just outside the area, waiting for a half chance clearance, to come his way.

Match after match you have a ball pinging about in the opponents area, have a player stand back a few yards, knock the ball to him, in the less congested area of field, not rocket science.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-var-problem-liverpool-breaking-23786485

Frank @124…. Honestly I don’t get it. Every team does this. I’ve seen the rolling around, the time wasting, I’ve seen loads of it from teams against us this season. I’ve said for years Everton are far too honest. Nobody wants to see people rolling around yet Salah, Mane, Ronaldo etc do it every week. We need to get with the times. The times are, you feel contact you go down. It only seems to be Everton that get punished for this, 6 bookings this season for diving…. Mane dived in the derby aswell. No booking. I just think this view of ‘old school’ football where you can crunch someone and a player doesn’t go down is a dated view. Sorry to say it because I agree with you but it’s not how football is now. I bet you could watch most penalty decisions this season and say ‘he could of stayed up there’, problem is if you stay up you don’t get the pen, or foul.

Okay, Richarlison would still have been out with injury and Tarkowski being banned would have had no affect on us, but still, should have been a red card for him.

That point of people rolling around as if they had been shot. I listened to Don Hutchinson say, He hates to see it but if the Everton players had fell to the ground rolling around and holding their face they would have got more reaction from the ref and the VAR. That's the way the game is going and I, along with thousands of others, hate it.

Whilst I'm glad that understandably pessimistic 90% figure was used in the nuclear industry for obvious reasons, it should be pointed out that such figures are derived and set based on myriad factors.

No need to list all wider ones here, but relevant to the VAR check is the immediate removal or reduction of almost all elements that led to the check; speed of play, game pressure, view available to officials, time pressure, direct pressure from players etc.

As you say it can never be perfect with humans involved and without honesty. Nor with the nature of some of the decisions. However 90% would be nowhere near good enough IMO. Also, accountability and outside access to the decision in real time (as in rugby union) would be positive influence.

Much room for improvement.

just read your post 133 after responding to Ed.

I agree with both of you in some way to some degree. Certain decisions will be forever subjective and humans will never get them "Right". By the same token, there can never be agreement on what is right. Other decisions are essentially black & white.

All about extent and making the best of it. They certainly aren't doing that.

Never said there won't be times when it is a judgement call, just that we have come a long way in supposedly taking the subjectivity out of the referees’ decision-making. For some reason, the authorities are loathe to making it as fully transparent as they easily could.

Yep. "Some reason" is the whole crux of it...

The Rugby Union are a credit to their profession, where the referee treats the Captains with respect, and serious and controversial decisions are discussed between Ref and his fourth official on screen. Everyone in the ground and on TV can hear every word and it takes about 2 minutes, everything 100% correct.

But FA and FIFA in general are still in the dark ages, where they are untouchable, and answer to no-one.

Perhaps Frank could do worse than play Al Pacino's rousing pre-match speech from Any Given Sunday in the changing rooms this Sunday. I guess most TW posters have seen - but its always worth a second watch.
Link

There was also the thought that we held the distinction of spending more years in the Top Division than any other Club. And come to think of it, apart from Arsenal, we have the longest unbroken spell in the top flight as well.

I've read posters on here, moaning we may end up playing clubs like Blackpool, Blackburn, Wigan etc. So, didn't these cClubs play in the Premier League not too long ago?

It's sad but no disgrace to be relegated – after all, over two-thirds of the presen Premier League clubs have 'enjoyed' the big drop – it happens!! Hopefully if the worst happens, our useless Board of Directors will either resign or start to show some interest in the club. At least we may some respite from the corrupt FA etc and the anti-Everton Media.

I am in my twilight years now and in very poor health & in and out of hospital. (The staff in A&E call me by my first name as they wheel me in!) They know that I am trying to collect my Police Pension for every year I served in the Police (33) so they have to keep me alive for 4 more years.

They said they would ensure I would see Everton win at least one trophy – and I believe them as I have converted most of them into Evertonians!!

COYB and keep smiling everybody The days are dwindling away.

Contrast that with the clown we had and Craig Pawson on Saturday and no wonder the trefs don't go to the big games anymore.

Firstly and most importantly, stay healthy and get that pension for as long as you can, everything else pales into insignifcance.

On the football side of things, it might be easier for some of us, even the likes of me as an old cynic to accept 'relegation' as we have been lucky enough to see Everton in their pomp and nobody can take any of that away from us. But it is still galling that not only have we failed to challenge at the top table for nigh on 35 years, and helplessly watched on as Man City and Chelsea took what used to be Everton's place in the football hierarchy, but we now find ourselves unable to compete with the other also-rans of the top division.

Things today are very different to the 1950s, because relegation wasn't enough to blow the club off course, it still had a huge fan-base and that helped to ensure the club kept it's place in the financial pecking order, nowadays, although there are parachute payments to help, it means that the squad will likely be decimated by sales and we will probably end up with a significant number of highly paid players who we can't shift.

For the younger fans who have witnessed nothing of note for twenty years, and have borne the brunt of their classmates and workmates jibes for most of that time, what incentive do they have to keep going and to follow the club in the lower league? It's been hard enough during the last six years to keep the faith and I fear that for many fans relegation will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

There's no escaping football now that it's become the national sport on a huge scale, gone are the days where you could slope off to a quiet pub and get away from the game, it's all pervasive and everybody has an opinion about it, whether they attend the game or not, that for younger Evertonians must be torture at times.

If the worst does happen, it could, if the club bounced straight back, be the catalyst for better times and normally that would be the hope that I'd have, but with the financial shenanigans of the last few years at the club, there may be more unpalatable news to come, that may scupper any chance of an immediate return to the top divison, should we go down.

We still have eighteen points to compete for, we probably need a dozen to stay up and whilst that's still a possiblity we should pray for that and try not to dwell on the ramifiacations of not gaining enough points.

Absolutely, speak when you're spoken to is the mantra of those who run the Premier League, while they do double somersaults to help the big clubs clean up the silverware.

Despite us being on the end of some poor decisions this season, the real reason we are where we are is our away form is the worst I can remember from any Everton side I have watched. What is even worse is they couldnt beat Norwich home or away, allowed next to bottom Watford come from 1-2 down after 78 minutes to win 2-5. Just recently went to Burnley were leading 1-2 and lost the game. So yes some refereeing decisions have been awful but lets not hide away from the fact that Lampard and our previous manager have struggled to get an away win since last August and the last time we picked up a point away was at Chelsea in December.

Like you, I get up at ridiculous hours in the morning to shout like a loon at the television. Even the next-door neighbour knows if we win or lose now. I think this side of Hawera does – not much happens here!

I've never known Everton outside of the top division. Stay safe Bernie, there ain't too many of us down here!

Only 3 teams in the current top flight have not been relegated in my lifetime and Everton are one of them.

I do care which league we are in next season but regardless, we will all be there. Be it at Goodison, the Emirates, Blackpool or Preston.

Whatever happens, surely now the club and it's owner must realise the need for a reset.

Although I was on the fence with Lampard, I actually like the changes on the football side. A clear out seems to have started. Things are changing.

We know which target the sights should be set on next. Belatedly.

When we win on Sunday Bernie, I will send a message. God bless you.

Benitez will be as distant a memory as Allardyce. In my head, neither will have tainted the corridors of Goodison. If I ignore it, it didn't happen.

Lampard and his DoF will have been allowed to get on with restructuring the football side of things, free from interference with the board, most of whom have been relieved of their duties and replaced with competent people.

Having been elevated to Tier 1 status, and subject to my invite to apply on 10th May, I attend the opening fixture at Goodison with my new season ticket against Manchester City at home. The quest for European football starts.

I've just woken up again. Maybe catch you in the Brick before Chelsea.

When I started watching football it was back in the early 70s with Pompey in the old second division, I enjoyed going to the matches just as much although nothing compares with the Goodison atmosphere.

If we do drop, although he is culpable to an extent I will not blame Lampard. In fact I think he would be a great manager to have if we do find ourselves in the championship. Rebuild from there if we can find the finances, hopefully with BK just a memory... however that is achieved (I have my own theories), enjoy the additional games, (hopefully easier to get to see them), and enjoy also the euphoria of promotion.

I can't see our support waning if we have a spell away from the increasingly vitriolic premiership so long as we can manage the finances without points deduction or other sanction.

Onwards and upwards/downwards you blues.

I'm looking forward to an fa cup derby draw and a win against the RS at Mordor.

Wake me in the morning...

Many have been fearing what’s happened for months, some think that once we go in the bottom three, we are never coming back out of it?

Maybe we won’t, but at least we’ve got a chance, and the biggest chance we have got is if Everton can win as many games as possible. So there’s the only answer for now - let’s just get behind the players - and try and help make them run and fight for every single ball. Remember what the Leeds player said about Goodison, and how much it helped our team.

Lampard additionally sourced encouragement from his players' desire to stand up for each other when matters grew heated during the 240th all-Merseyside clash.

“That is what my team has to do… it is what Evertonians want from their team,” said Lampard.

“Stay the right side of the line, with no stupidity in it.

“But when there is so much at stake and they [Liverpool] are a team that wants to fight... you have to stand up to that.

“I was very pleased with that side of the game.

“Not only did we stand up, we kept our hands down, we didn't go over the line.”

No doubt the Premier League will want an explanation from Frank as to what he means by it.

It is well known Arsenal are keen on Calvert-Lewin, cough, cough.

This could throw up an interesting theory, could Arsenal take a dive with the knowledge, we play ball and allow Calvert-Lewin to sign for them, or worse case scenario, Arsenal know if they win and it costs us safety, they will get their player at a reduced price.

Anyway 5 games before that game, I just hope we do not have to go there on the final Day, having to win.

He does have the right to ask. But he needs to concentrate on getting Everton to play better. Brian Clough did not allow his players to query a referee's decision. He thought it wasted time, because it only takes a second to score a goal.

Everton at the moment are looking for decisions and a little bit of luck. That is how they are scoring. They need to be applying themselves more. Frank is feeding that distraction, rather than managing better football.

Going down will be a financial disaster but one which will necessitate the club clearing out its acres of deadwood and to become a professional organisation rather than a crony-ocracy. In this respect, Frank Lampard is key because the way he will develop is only in a club that develops with him not his being swamped by a veritable pile of pony that he has had no part in developing.

Did anybody see Allan's stats from Sunday? He effectively didn't have any. His Liverpool opposites were taking the mickey out of him today.

To your point, I sat in the Upper Bullens (no half time drink - sore point) and watched us go a goal behind against Burnley around the 50 minute mark. I could sense the doom mongers, but just over 10 minutes later, we were 3 - 1 up.

I'm no prophet and football is too unpredictable as is life. So I won't predict whether we go down or stay up. I'm just going to watch the rest of the season and support the club that is my life in the way I always have done.

See you all Sunday.

I have to ask, Martin. What are fans guilty of here?

I see nothing but dedication, commitment and passion that any club would be envious of.

We all may have our spats on here on our different views of the club, but I genuinely don't know a more dedicated support base. Genuinely 100%.

But the big story would be if Everton got relegated, not only because we are the biggest club by far in this years relegation battle, but because of the money that's been spent, it's as if people want a club that has spent a fortune to be relegated.

But we have 6 games to show that we won't be pressurised by press or pundits who would love this to happen, and will with the help of the best supporters in the Premier league avoid the drop.

I would also like our owner to come out and say, whatever happens, Lampard and his coaches will be in charge next season, and we finally put a stop to the managerial merry-go-round that this owner has perpetuated since he took over.

He has experience of managing in the Championship, if it comes to that, which is important, but we hope that won't be necessary and we will still be in the top flight next season.

Like most, I have renewed my season ticket for next season, would be nice to see our owner in the stands for the remaining home games, but I doubt that will happen.

I understand what you're saying, Jerome, but if anyone could explain to me how Gordon could have stayed on his feet, with either the Matip or Arnold incidents, I'd love to hear their thoughts.

My own being that I'd never tell Anthony to stop being so aggressive. The type of running he produced surprised both Liverpool players, imo, and he should have been rewarded with both a free-kick and a penalty.

"What are the fans guilty of here?" Come on mate, own up. It was your suggestion to Colin Harvey that we bought Ian Wilson.

Stroke their bellies and make them allies, even though he could be has hard faced as anyone.

I've heard twice in two days from a very good source that Moshiri wants to sell. I heard yesterday that there is American investors talking to Everton, and I heard today that Moshiri is desperate because he's lost his banker.

I believe this story, and although we have got more serious matters at hand, I just hope Kenwright's legacy isn't relegation, because it finally/hopefully looks like the end of his despicable reign is nigh.

Who will we turn on after Bill Kenwright has gone?

Searching 24/7/365 for years for an investor who would allow him carry on playing with his trainset and then getting us Moshiri who allowed Bill and Denise's chaotic cliques to carry on.

The usual farce that is the running of EFC will then ensue and no one will know who the manager is going to be or have any idea on player sales of keeping hold.

In simple terms they won't know what to do and we will sink to championship obscurity.

I look at all three of them and cringe.

We are in 3rd or 4th place in the table of fans with the highest percentage of having the ground full. We are equal with Liverpool, Chelsea are in 14th place despite winning 20 trophies since Abramovich's takeover. If Liverpool went 27 years without winning anything, they would be outside the top 10 in this fans table.

Everton fans are loyal and support the team in numbers at home and away.

He's clung on and clung on, and if you think life is about blaming people mate, that's your prerogative, but I'd just personally sooner have a united club myself, which has never been the case under the actor.

Disagree, Chris, not even really that well run imo mate, and not just because of the pathetic deal that continues to cost Everton a fortune over Finch Farm.

What evidence do you have it was well run??

That is an incredible comment to post given the last 27 years!!

The only way the banker is turning his back, is he's gone bust or under sanctions. File under Bullshit I would think.

I was just trying to point out that relegation – though upsetting – is not the end of the world. We will bounce back. I've seen it happen before and it will happen again.

Christine mentioned stress –strangely, I had a heart attack when Benitez was appointed manager but my pacemaker is working fine now that Frank is in charge - long may he remain so.

We just have to get rid of Good Time Bill and his minions in the Boardroom and we will be back on top. Everton are a Great Club and I love you guys and all your viewpoints – they keep me going!

Thanks again and God Bless.

I think we've been appallingly run for years. Probably since the late eighties when we decided not to kick on after winning the Championship for a second time and settled for Top 10 after that.

I should have read it all, like I've just done now, mate. You wrote what I feel, but in a much better way, and I should have known better because I don't think you've ever been a fan of Kenwright

They’ll be loads of twists in the perms of fixtures left impacting Everton, but hopefully Everton will prevail, by hard work, and good luck, and win this battle for survival.

Chelsea, next, and a massive weekend of fixtures.

UTFT!

Gordon's second penalty claim was 100 percent a penalty, but it is never going to be a penalty.

The Everton squad at various times during this season have downed tools, not put the effort in, they also have been a disgrace. Lampard backing their excuses or giving them reasons is not the way to go.

We always seem to struggle when there is anything more than 7 or 8 days before games. I think I am right in stating there are no more long breaks now so hopefully that will work in our favour too. The team should take a lot of heart from Sunday too and I am sure Frank will be telling them to go and show the rest of the football world they will not get rid of us easily.

UTFT

Don @ 201, spot on: Klaassen is Willo Mk 2.

Everton can and will stay up.

UTFT!

UTFT

No breaks is definitely an advantage with this squad. Pitch time rather than Finch Farm time.

Was Anthony Gordon not only saying the other week that he was Scouse and would “stand up to anyone”.

I know they are far from alone but it all does my head in because it is supposed to be a working-class man's game (no offense to the ladies game).

I watch Rugby League and I squirm when I see the tackles these guys put in and often wonder what these men think of football players. Little girls or something like that I assume!

We did not deserve anything from that game because there were a few times that we got into good attacking positions, including the penalty appeal and we just fluff it all too easily and we don't know what to do. We can't defend when it matters and we can't score due to the incompetence of our players and that's why we are in this fucked up position. I hate the VAR and most officials but we need to learn how to get them on our side too by being clever.

So, based on our general form, we are pretty much down unless Frank Lampard can come up with some plan on how to manage each game for maximum points. He's slowly getting there with this awful team but the sheer will and intelligence he had in abundance is missing from most of our players and deep down it's got to be hurting him. Injuries have not helped him of course but all of our hopes are on him getting us out of this.

Best wishes to you all as I know Loving Everton is not good for our health.
COYB

"Well, you lot, the FA, the Premier League, the referees, the VARs, are all cheating bastards, okay!"

Nuff said, Frank, can't argue with that!

£10,000 fine.

Six games to play – let's make it three points under our belt and five to play by Sunday night. It is still in our hands.

“We will Fight, Fight, Fight, with all our might for the boys in the royal blue jersey.”

How many times have I sang those words with all my heart with my dad (God rest his soul), home and away during the '60s before I emigrated. I hope those words rattle the stands at Goodison on Sunday and summon the spirit of days gone by.

I agree Richarlison and Gordon are poor divers. But, if you look at instances of minimal contact it's a penalty if Salah goes down versus them because he's a better actor.

But since it's not the Oscars surely it's the contact from the defender that determines the call rather than the acting ability of the opposition player.

To my mind, in this era, a dive is like Huckerby from Materazzi when there was no contact at all and Materazzi famously got sent off before losing his rag.

But those who have played the game know 2 things. Firstly, at pace, even the slightest of touch on a quick player will knock them off balance and, in full flight, send them flying (literally). Second, a fouled player will always try to make sure they get the decision. That's football.

Jack Grealish (darling of English football) wasn't called a diver at Villa. He was called the most fouled player in the league. Different, I suppose??

And if you want to see a player who goes down like he's been shot by a Stalingrad sniper from the really big stand, watch the YouTube footage of Salah with circus music in the background. It is, well, comical. In fact, don't. If you're angry now, you will be more so after watching that.

So, yes, Anthony needs to watch his reputation, but at the same time, he is not getting decisions because they are reserved for elite clubs and England internationals.

Taking the dog out.

Generally the fans are really exceptional but I believe that we are guilty in two areas. I don't know how serious the effects have been but these are the boo-boys at the ground and the demands for management change when it may well have been better to suffer the incumbent rather than the massive disruption of managerial change.

Fat Sam left us in 8th place.

As a club, we have been far too impatient with managers. I don't know how many times I can say it; the problem isn't the manager.

Even though he didn't seem to want to be there, would Koeman really have got us relegated? We have done it more than once; panicked rather than see something through. I hope we afford Lampard that even though I was on the fence and regardless of what happens.

I will disagree on Allardyce. Red flag for me. As would Dyche be. You are not building for the future with those type of coaches. Just surviving on excuses and playing down of expectation. Sorry, but my expectation for Everton is not to be like Burnley or Bolton.

But the theatrics afterwards - the rolling about clutching the shin regardless of where the contact it, is the part that refs will associate with trying to deceive them and will result in less decisions being given.

Fair enough, if you’ve been fouled then go to ground - but don’t roll around in apparent agony for no reason. And especially, Mina is the most guilty of this, don’t stay on the floor looking for sympathy when you could actually get up and help the team if the foul hasn’t been given.

I’ve heard Duncan Ferguson does nothing once again, which means he’s become a token appointment, just like he appeared to be, when Martinez promoted him to the first team squad.

I say this because even if Duncan’s input is severely limited once again, surely he should have been pointing out to Lampard, that the only way Ancellotti got points out of this team, (Ancellotti has said this week that getting 59 points was a miracle) was by playing the way we have played against City and Liverpool?

Maybe this has been pointed out? And if so, I can see why people can have reservations against Lampard, but I want to give him time because he’s come into a nightmare scenario, with a squad of players that were all over the place, otherwise Benitez wouldn’t have got sacked.

Because of a £100, 000 Summer Transfer budget.

The fallout from a dispute with the Manager over the Oct International break. Enough players downing tools, to force the Manager out.

A Manager walking in January unsupported in the transfers in January.

A Manager selection procedures that was for the birds.

A team of players that did not apply themselves in training or coached correctly or willingly.

Medical Services dept that was underperforming.

The perennial problem of 'after the break' blues. More coming back from a holiday than work overload.

Players who shied away from selection. Probably using Medical Services to do so.

Some bloody naive tactics.

A squad who are in new territory, having been on holiday from March on most previous seasons.

A Club that is in denial that it is in a relegation dogfight.

Lastly but not least a Club run into the ground and now a Shambles. Run by Muppets, who think they can and believe they have the genes to do so. Read any thread on ToffeeWeb for details.

That is why I have no truck with this' Stand Together', and taking seriously anyone advocating this for this Squad, Management and Coaches as if it is going to happen.

If Everton survive it will be by luck or a dubious decision. That is what they are playing for and it appears so is the Manager.

The reason I ask is Marcel Brands supposedly appointed scouts in all these Continents to bring young talent to our club, but I have never read anything about any youngsters arriving.

Now I realize it takes a bit of time when you introduce a new scouting system but this was set up a couple of years ago, so I would have expected at least a couple of boys from these countries to have come over at least for a trial.

Even though he bought in masses of money, we didn't have the professional framework available to convert that into improved team performance. In fact, it was a case of the inverse Midas touch where everything he touched turned to shit.

The other massive problem was the continuing cancer of Bill Kenwright at the top. The days of broke and Moyes seem to be golden days looking back.

He places the blame at Moshiri. My point was that this decline started over 30 years ago. The complacency set in not long after we last won the league title. Rest on your laurels and stand still rather than build on what you have just achieved?

I ask this because we sold Linekar before the World Cup, although this might have been because Kendall thought he was also going to Barcelona, (I know we came second that season) and only two years before we turned it around by winning the FA CUP, the club was that skint, the fans were having a whip around to sign Terry Curren.

Good post Jerome, I just hope Lampard gets that contentious decision, because he’s certainly had a few go against his team since that Manchester city game.

Strip all these issues out and you get down to bare brickwork of the current incarnation of EFC after 27 years of Bill Kenwright’s stewardship. There are amateur clubs that are better run.

I am always hopeful that the corner has been turned, Lampard and his coaching team and Thelwell look a good long term fit to me. I am desperate for the club fight off relegation and build.

No matter what, the future has to be one without Bill Kenwright’s omnipresent shadow of failure hanging over it.

Regardless of his love for Everton , he must go, for the good of the club. He must allow us to press the reset button and enter a professionally run era with renewed belief and fresh optimism.

I have to agree with your brother that the owner has to take the lions share of the blame for the predicament that Everton are in. He came in 6 years ago and despite spending the best part of £500 million the club has gone backwards under his ownership. For those suggesting that its Kenwrights fault is a bit like if Abramovich had failed despite spending hundreds of millions, their fans blaming Bruce Buck who is the Chairman.

Moshiri/Usmanov took over at Everton because Kronke had made it abundantly clear that he would never sell Arsenal to Usmanov, so he decided to put his money into Everton via his employee Moshiri. I think their rational for taking over at Everton was that they seemed a well run club, that were massively under funded. So pump in a few hundred million and they will be competing with the top 6/4 over a couple of years. I think us fans were just so delighted to have a billionaire on board that we became more demanding and wanted success tomorrow and wanted managers changed if that success wasn't forthcoming.

Lets not forget 12 months after becoming the owner Moshiri said he thought owning Everton would only take up 5% of his time, that should have sent alarm bells ringing in us as fans. Asking why were you only prepared to allocate 5% of your time to our club, begs the question why did you buy it in the first place if you only intended it to take up to 5% of your time. Some quite rightly point to Kenwrights faults and rightly point out to the Kings Dock fiasco or the attempt to move to Kirkby. But I don't think Kenwright would have appointed Allardyce and was openly hostile to the appointment of Benitez.

So lets lay the blame were the problem is and thats an owner who knows nothing about football, and has listened to agents who have a vested interest in their players not EFC. He is on his 3rd DOF and his 6th manager, does that strike anybody as a man who knows what he is doing in 6 years.

I couldn't let this slip. I was around here in the days were Kenwright and Co were being condened here on ToffeeWeb, and many times many crossed swords with you on your utter refusal to accept that the club was run by incompetent management, in particular Kenwright.

From 10 years ago, here you set out your opinion on the running of the club by Kenwright in response to many posters' incredulity over your stance...

"I can think of many words to describe the workings at EFC but gross mismanagement and incompetence wouldn't be on the radar."

Or another from the same thread, in response to the question:

"You don't consider gross mismanagement and incompetence a justification for change?"

Your response...

"No because that hasn't been proven, it's an opinion of a minority of fans and that is all. A team that is consistently finishing as high as us is not being run by incompetent people. Judge it on what we are winning then we are relatively unsuccessful but then so are 99% of teams."

I have to ask, Martin, what happened on the road to Damascus? When did you see the light? At what point or incident did you realize what was said so long ago might just be correct?

Genuinely interested in what changed your view.

We were drinking from the short-term celebratory glasses and resting on our laurels.

Small things, but the club that pioneered the triple decker stand and undersoil heating. Goodison once a pioneering stadium but now known as woodison.

We were on the brink of something special but stood still because we thought it would be served to on us on a plate because of who we are. Blame Heysel - I do - but it didn't hold back United or Arsenal.

Sorry, blame Moshiri for his efforts and investment all you want. The rot set in 30 years ago and bar Howard's achievements, probably before that. Look in the mirror; it tells you a lot.

That is why Manchester United now have 20 titles and a few European Champions League wins to their name compared to only having 7 to our 9 back in 1987.

A failure to invest and capitalise on the name and build a brand. It isn't the last 6 years. It's arguably the last 30 or 40. Lack of vision. Lack of strategy. That was the debate I had with my brother.

We missed the boat with financials / commercials of the Premier League. Failed to build a stadium. Failed to modernise etc.

In some ways Kenwright (and Moyes) arrested the inevitable slide to relegation. In some ways they both then became the solution and part of an ongoing problem.

The club reinvented itself as mediocre instead of finding a way to modernise / innovate (like Arsenal did in the 1990s).

Since Moshiri took over we have been a shambles. He therefore takes a lot of blame.

Kenwright is also now very much holding the club back by presiding over the very old fashioned, cosy culture at the club. With Moyes and no money, that worked to keep us as best(ish) of the rest.

Post Moyes and with money it does not work at all.

We are now a hopelessly old fashioned club and the list of upstarts overtaking us lengthens every year.

We need a new stadium (which is 20 years too late) and the club management needs a complete clean sweep.

"I wonder if … we have any young lads from South America or America or Africa in these teams?"

For the U18s, the answer is a resounding No. Issac Price hails from Northern Ireland and looking at the latest rumoured link, that's still about as far afield as we venture.

Katia Kouyate has links to Ivory Coast but he was born in Manchester. And there's a lad called Shae Cahill who has links to Australia... and maybe Samoa, but you can probably guess the stronger Everton connection!

There is a bit more of a variety in the U23s – but nothing outside of Europe:

Zan-Luk Leban (Slovenia... via Poland)
Joao Virginia (Portugal... via Arsenal)
Niels Nkounkou (France... via Marseille)
Einar Iversen (Norway... via Stord)
Seb Kristensen (Denmark... via Lyngby)
Rafael Garcia (Spain... via Fulham)

Nothing really among recent departures:

Nathangelo Markelo (Netherlands... via Volendam)
Thierry Small (UK/Panama... via West Brom)
Con Ouzounidis (Greece/Australia)
Nicolas Hansen (USA/Denmark)

And the most foreign-sounding of all:

Francis Okoronkwo... English, born in Blyth, Northumberland!

Thank you for the update I suspected we didnt have any youngsters come from where brands set up our new scouting bases. Again a club spending money on scouts but no return as yet. I applaud the idea of having scouts especially in South America and Africa were some very talented players come from, but if its producing nothing what's the point.

A point in time view is just that.

We all learn in life and adjust our views. I do.

Most of those with foreign credentials are really British but just qualify for other nations due to parents / grandparents etc.

Leban and Ouzounidis might be exceptions. Don't know their back story - but presumably they were hawked about for trials by agents (this is how Cahill snr did it).

Nkounkou wasn't bought for the academy and Virginia, though Portuguese, was bought from Arsenal.

We did have Ali-Cho on our books for a bit - possibly because we spotted him in a youth tournament in France. I can't quite remember.

Whatever the case, it is peculiar that we haven't shopped in persistently good value markets either before or after Brands.

Blame often gets levelled at the scouts for not uncovering hidden gems. Personally I don't really believe in hidden gems in this era of vast availability of data.

It's more a question about business operations designed to bring in and develop quality that is hiding in plain sight for professional scouts.

Not sure how he found him.

We all change or modify opinions when facts present themselves or become evident. You held a view that has evolved over time, I get it.

Well said Frank!!!

OK, thanks. Personally, I don't see any scenario for blaming fans, short of smashing the place up or similar.

No decision is ever made by the supporters, despite our right to have views and express them however loudly. Our influence is limited at best by all methods of protest ever used hitherto.

In terms of the current poor situation and more recent decisions, the Pereira event caused the loudest fan activity, but the influence on the decision is never known for certain - whether owners or directors say they listened or not.

The buck stops with the management. Whether they did listen to fans or not is on them too.

I have always said that we have little chance to influence things but I believe now that I was wrong on this.

The atmosphere at the ground is critical and I believe that Moshiri, with little real knowledge, picked up on what was often blatant hostility. Similarly in the media, the people like White pick up the hostility on Social Media, and he has the ear of Moshiri.

You are correct about where the buck stops though, I'm just thinking about influence that's all. I think that whatever happens though we must break the cycle by not sacking Lampard, what do you think?

Regarding Okoronkwo the lad we got from Sunderland, is he still with us? There has been no mention of the lad for the last few weeks, is he injured? He hasn't played for the U18s or U23s for over a month: have you heard anything about him?

Kings dock, money ring fenced, shafting Philip Green, destination Kirkby, Goodison will not pass a safety certificate.

Even Lord Grandchester said he would not put one penny into the club, while Bill was Chairman, and that was over 20 years ago.

We have had good times, what would Everton do.

He took over from a Chairman who had already built the new Park stand, landed us our last trophy, then sold Everton which left Everton in the Black, within a year or so we were in the red, we had to sell off finch farm and then rent it back.

He got very lucky with David Moyes.

I might be wrong but it is around £5.6 Million net spend under Moyes, from incoming to outgoings, over his time in charge that’s assuming we found the Arteta money.

Since his time on watch, Everton have stagmented.

The guy might be the nicest bloke in the world, I have no personal vendetta against the guy himself, but when he is ripping the life and soul, out of my football club I cannot stand by, Moshiri has to be accountable as well but at least he has dipped his hand into his own pocket, his lack of football knowledge has cost him a lot of money, being ill advised.

Many saw this around 10 years ago, if not longer, at least now, others are finally seeing the way our club has gone.

But hey, we’ve had some good times.

Kenwright out.

I agree re. not sacking Lampard. Obviously that wouldn't happen til season's end now at the earliest. It's a topic for longer discussion but there is no mileage in anymore knee-jerk stuff, it simply hasn't worked and has compounded with each increasingly desperate and ill-considered action.

It's been a perfect storm really, that began with the wrong choice to replace Martinez, in the face of plenty of evidence, had anyone really looked (In my easy-from-a-keyboard opinion).

Following that misfire was the time to sit back and fully take stock, to plan for the next few seasons and not the next few months. But those controlling the club tried to quickly not be Everton - and here we are.

Bill is on the Land Registry for Goodison Park, Finch Farm and BMD.

It’s a nap.

Hopefully Everton FC, will stay in the EPL, this season, and learn well the lessons of that last 40 years, plus of company neglect.

Now for Chelsea, a worthy foe, and to beat them on the park, this Sunday, and to remember the games over the years were Everton have beaten Chelsea, at Goodison Park, very well.

Frank, your Finest 2 Hours, as a manager, is a must this Sunday afternoon. Everton players to convert the chances, and score goals!

Evertonians, this is the time, to make the difference.

From St Lukes, the Spellow, Brick, Wilmslow, Royal Oak, Glebe, Black Horse, and all the County Road Everton pubs, and Carisbrooke etc and all,the Everton ale houses. And from the Radio waves and TV Stations of the world TV screens.

This is D Day, for Everton FC, all Evertonians near and far, in this Universe, are embraced and welcome to make this a very special day for Everton FC, to beat Chelsea.

“Whats Our Name?”

UTFT!

“Whats Our Name?”

UTFT!

But pure Ego is well in the mix too, Kenwright, Moshiri and Usmanov.

Moshiri & Usmanov must rue the day that Bill talked him into this.

But that is what Bill does, that's his day job, he talks people into investing in his productions.
One of his productions just happens to be Everton. These people are called in the trade 'Angels'

..."listen, me and Moyesie have got Everton there but not quite, I just haven't got the money, sod Arsenal, come in with me, etc, etc."

Then with the extra money, 'Mismanagement through Ignorance and Ego' on a small scale by Tweedledum.
Became 'Gross Mismanagement through Ignorance and Ego' on an epic scale, with the added bonus of Tweedledum and Tweedledumber both pulling at the wheel trying to steer at the same time.

Interesting question on young South American footballers.I did try through Everton in Uruguay to get information on Everton's rehashed, from Johnson's reign , Satellite Clubs idea.Got nowhere. A blanket site for Everton in South Amercan did not reply, probably run by someone now on the ESSG.From what I can gather Clubs received penants with the their Clubs name on them.Home Farm Everton ( Dublin) where the original satellite Club from the 90s. They are now connected to Leeds.After all the attempted research came up with nothing.I should have known anyway. Jay Wood( Braz) would have given us a detailed analysis if anything was being produced.

By the way have not been attacked by Jay for a long time???? Hope he is keeping OK.

Nobody has claimed that the club was well run, that isn't the same question as whether there was gross mismanagement or not.

One thing that is for certain is that you don't know how well or badly the club was run given the conditions under which it was operating; you can only only state an opinion. Remember, respectfully, that this is opinion – not fact.

My opinion is that, since the arrival of Moshiri and his working capital, gross mismanagement by my standards and opinion has been demonstrated. Pre-Moshiri, it certainly hadn't. That is my opinion and I believe that this has some basis.

(Sophistry; an argument apparently correct in form but actually invalid.)

My conclusion:
Pre-Moshiri, we were badly run.
Post-Moshiri, we were and are really badly run.

And in my opinion, that's a fact... which is, in fact, my opinion.

So, for that reason – I'm out.

Just beat Chelsea and stay up please... we can then all kick Kenwright and Moshiri at our leisure.

My conclusion:
Pre-Moshiri, we were badly run.
Post-Moshiri, we were and are really badly run.

A very fair opinion and one I would gladly agree with except you should perhaps have said "my opinion" – not "my conclusion".

Whilst some would say that the poor running of the club was since Kenwright, I'd say it goes back to the '70s, perhaps the time we started building the new Main Stand.

Yes, please get a result on Sunday and please stay up so we can do it all again next year.

Best wishes guys, I love you all

Despite an inquiry, you still refused to apportion blame or responsibility to Kenwright. "It's just opinion" became and still is your mantra. Now, you consider the man to be an absolute cancer on the club.

I never called you a revisionist, merely asked what had happened to change your views. A fair and reasonable observation after so many years of refusing to question his performance, then condemning him.

You answered that question, thank you.

Has Frank (or should it be Everton?) been contacted and is the reply in the papers, sorry, The Mail?

And have the FA broken their own rules and questioned Attwell and the VAR as to how they reached, or didn't, their decisions? Or is that opinion and the truth considered irrelevant?